Ryan McCollom is Making Canadian Theatre Impossible to Ignore
About This Episode:
Ryan McCollom is a Toronto-based theatre content creator behind the popular TikTok and Instagram account Plates and Playbills, and he’s on a mission to get more people through the doors of indie and smaller professional theatres across the city. What started as personal documentation of his own growing love of theatre has evolved into a platform dedicated to closing the gap between the big Mirvish productions most people know and the rich, underserved world of indie and community theatre that most audiences don’t even know exists.
This episode explores:
- How Ryan went from cooking videos during COVID to becoming one of Toronto’s most visible theatre content creators
- The difference between being a theatre critic and a theatre commentator and why Ryan is careful about that line
- Why the Stratford Festival was the wake-up call that made Ryan realize theatre needed younger audiences now
- What indie theatres could be doing on social media to reach new audiences without spending a dime
- Canadian cultural cringe in the performing arts: why audiences wait for American or British validation before embracing homegrown work
- And much more!
Guest: 🎠Ryan McCollom
Ryan is a Toronto-based content creator dedicated to making theatre more accessible and approachable for new audiences while also encouraging seasoned theatre-goers to explore smaller professional companies and indie productions. While his coverage primarily focuses on the Toronto theatre scene, Ryan also documents his travels and the productions he experiences around the world, sharing an honest perspective as an everyday theatre fan.
Connect with Ryan:
📸 Instagram: @platesandplaybills_
🎥 TikTok: @platesandplaybills_
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Transcript
[Phil Rickaby]
Hello, welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host and producer of this podcast. Stageworthy is Canada’s theatre podcast.
And on Stageworthy, I talk to theatre makers of all kinds from actors to directors, to playwrights, stage managers, producers. If they make theatre in Canada, I talk to them. Some of the people I talk to are household names and the rest are people that I really think that you should get to know.
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I also have a Patreon. I’ll talk a little bit more about that at the end of the show, and you should really stick around to the end of the show so that I can tell you about who my guest is next week, but I’ll just say that I do have a Patreon that helps support this channel. If you are so inclined and you want to help me to make Stageworthy, go to patreon.com slash Stageworthy and become a patron. My guest this week is Ryan McCollom. Ryan is a Toronto based theatre content creator and the person behind the TikTok and Instagram reels account plates and pay bills. So this is my conversation with Ryan McCollom right now.
Ryan McCollom, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Um, you are a theatre content creator.
Your, uh, social media account is plates and play bills and you’re covering theatre sort of as a fan rather than, you know, a lot of times in, in the end of people in the industry. I don’t think we consider your role in the, in the theatre. Um, but tell me about, uh, what it is that you do, uh, with, uh, plates and playbills.
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, thank you so much, Phil. So, like you said, I very much see myself as a fan of theatre. I think it’s funny right away.
You saying my role in the theatre, because truly when I started on this journey, I didn’t think what I was doing was a role or something that was a part of the industry, but really kind of, it came out of almost a frustration of having friends who were theatre fans, but by theatre fans, they saw the big nervous shows in Toronto and really nothing more. And I’ll be completely honest. That was myself a couple of years ago.
It’s really only been recently that I’ve continued my journey of getting deeper into the smaller professional theatres in Toronto and the indie theatres. But I absolutely loved every single part of that journey. So I thought, okay, I’m loving this, but I’m getting frustrated sometimes when I go to a show and it’s the most amazing indie show, but the house is half full and it’s full of people who are just sometimes there because they know the performers.
So if there are people who are truly theatre fans, what are they, they’re really missing out on all this amazing theatre is happening in Toronto. So truly what I try to do with my platforms is get people who are that level of seeing the large productions in Toronto and beyond more interested in seeing professional theatre on a smaller level or indie theatre or community theatre, but also to get people who haven’t seen theatre into theatre, because I think there’s that thought one with indie theatre, but just theatre in general that it’s not accessible for a variety of reasons, but really encouraging people like, Hey, just go out and see something. I don’t care what you see, come and see a show.
[Phil Rickaby]
You say something really interesting about, about, you know, people who largely they see like the big Mervis shows or they see like the, the, the big shows. Um, and I think for people outside of the theatre industry, those are the shows that take up the air in the room, right? That’s the, that’s what people think of when they, when they think about the shows, they think about the, the big budget musicals and things like that, which can be a gateway to other theatre, but the other theatres don’t, they can’t advertise the way that the Mervis productions, uh, shows can.
Um, I’m curious how you, how you grew to discover the smaller to midsize theatres in the city.
[Ryan McCollom]
Honestly, I think it was a few years ago when I was getting into my late twenties and kind of getting to that point in my life of, Oh, I’m settled in my career. I have adult money that I can spend on what I want to spend now. And I was seeing theatre more often because I thought, Hey, this is something I really enjoy, so let me see more of it.
And then I think probably it kind of went in the steps of getting into more and more niche theatre. So I saw an ad for Canadian stage show on the subway, maybe, or honestly, Toronto theatre Reddit is such an amazing place to discover all levels of Toronto theatre. So started seeing like, whether it was a Canadian stage show or Soul Pepper, I can’t remember what I saw first, but something like that.
And then getting a little more deep and deep down the rabbit hole into seeing smaller companies and then see something at fringe and then seeing independent theatre where it isn’t even a theatre company doing it. It’s just a group of people who are so passionate about the arts that thought, Hey, we’re going to rent a space. We’re going to put together this production.
So it’s something that I feel like there are so many resources in Toronto talking about where to find these shows. Like a lot of independent creators put out resources, even like sites like blog to yo sometimes have theatre listings on them, but there’s still, and I spend hours of my weeks going through and trying to make these lists. I do a video every week or every month, rather talking about what’s on my radar for shows that are coming up, but there will still be a time when.
A show will be two days into its four day run. And I see an ad on Instagram about it, or I see someone posted going to it and I still haven’t heard of it. So I think that that’s a lot of what is happening in Toronto right now is there’s just, like you said, these smaller companies don’t have the budget for advertising.
So what I try to do with my content is how can I inform at least the small audience that I have about these shows that I know that are coming up to hopefully inspire someone who hasn’t heard of it to go to see something. And truly when someone comments on one of my videos and says, Hey, I had no idea that this show is going on, but I went to see it because of you, that makes it completely worth it for me. That’s exactly what I am trying to do.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely. And I think it’s interesting because, you know, sometimes there, you know, people, you mentioned fringe, you mentioned the Toronto fringe and, and that’s a great gateway for people who are starting to produce theatre. Um, but it is production with, with training wheels on.
And if you’re only experienced and it’s training wheels, because during fringe, the audience is actively looking for things to see, whereas outside of fringe, you have to convince them to come. There’s like two polar opposites. And sometimes people will like they’ll produce a show having only done fringe and not quite realize the difference between the two.
Um, and it, it, it is always heartbreaking to see those, those, those audiences where it’s like the friends and things like that. It’s always difficult. Um, are there, when you’re making that monthly list, what kind of things make a show pop out for you?
[Ryan McCollom]
Honestly, for that monthly list, I try to include everything and everything that is going on. So Toronto theatre Reddit is a great resource for me. There’s, um, there’s someone on there.
I forget their username, but they compile this amazing Google docs spreadsheet that has a ton of productions listed on it. There’s also stagedoor.com is an amazing resource for Toronto and surrounding area. But I always look, obviously there are hundreds of things going on in the city at any given time.
So I try to focus on true theatrical production. So things like, um, like comedy and things like that, or something where it’s only just like a one performance type thing, absolutely nothing against any of those, but I’m really trying to focus on a true theatrical production that has a run of like four shows to a couple of weeks, because then I feel like if I talk about that, there’s more of a chance of someone getting to see those. But when I kind of go through my list and think about what I’m trying to see myself, I think what gets me to go see a show is one, if there’s a creative working on it, whether that’s onstage or offstage that I’ve seen before that I really love their work or just something, there’s sometimes a show and just the couple of lines about it that they put on their website or whatever, just really interesting. And you think, wow, this looks cool.
I’m going to go see this.
[Phil Rickaby]
I had a question for you about, um, how you see yourself in the ecosystem of Toronto theatre. And I know that you mentioned you, you hadn’t really considered yourself as part of the ecosystem. Um, because you’re a theatre fan and you’re specifically not a critic.
Um, and what does that distinction mean to you?
[Ryan McCollom]
Honestly, that’s been something that, especially these past few months, as I have been creating more content involving my content has been on my mind. I think, you know, I think about New York as an example, because that’s a theatre scene that has a larger amount of creators working within it and commenting on, and I feel like there, there’s the very distinct difference between a critic and an influencer who is just going to see shows and promoting the shows sometimes, whether they love it or if they just like it. And I always want to stay authentic, but at the same time, I don’t really see myself as a critic because I don’t know if it’s because I feel apprehensive because I don’t have qualifications or anything, but I also truly believe that whether you love a show or not is truly subjective.
There is no objective. This show is great. This show is not great.
And that’s something that sometimes, you know, the newspaper critics and some of the larger theatre criticism, I get frustrated with because I’ll see a show that I personally enjoyed, but you see a review from a large source saying this was not a good show and here’s why. So I never want to discourage someone from seeing a piece of theatre. And I think that that’s almost dangerous sometimes, especially for smaller productions in indie theatre to say, you know, this show is not a good show.
Don’t go see it because just because you didn’t like it doesn’t mean that someone else won’t love it. When I think about shows that I feel strongly for or against, almost always I can find a review that has the exact opposite opinion of me, than me. So when I talk about a show, I consider myself giving commentary on it versus giving criticism on it.
And oftentimes when I feel strongly about a show and I do a full video on it and by a full video, I mean, two or three minutes, that’s kind of, I go into that short form kind of content, but I’ll talk about what I loved about the show and also some things that I didn’t love about it, the format that I’ve kind of come up for myself based on something inspired by other theatre critics that I’ve seen is I call it talk worthy, tweak worthy, and ticket worthy.
So why am I talking about the show? What do I love about it? What are some things I might tweak with it and why I think people should go buy a ticket to it?
And I hope that through the way that I’m talking about shows, someone would be able to see and think, okay, you know what, what he said he would tweak. That’s not something that would personally bother me, but how he’s talking about this show, I absolutely love it or the reverse. Ryan might not love this show for this certain reason, but it’s still something that piques my interest and I’m going to go see it.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s interesting because I think that there’s that fine line. I mean, listen, I, as somebody who, who covers theatre in Canada and I, I very specifically, I don’t do reviews. I’ve never done reviews and I’m uncomfortable, but that’s as somebody who makes theatre.
I don’t want to cross that line. There are very varying ways of approaching criticism and it, and I would, I know you’re reluctant to do it, but saying things that you would tweak, that’s almost like a bit of theatre criticism. You know, it’s not about, I don’t want to do this or I don’t, I don’t, I think you should, should see this show it and all theatre criticism is your opinion, right, even if you, no matter who you are, and I think, I don’t know.
[Ryan McCollom]
I don’t know where I’m going with that. I just, I think so. The, I think, like I said, I’m, I’m getting into criticism, but I’m just hesitant to call it criticism.
And I think this is not me talking disparagingly about critics. I think there are some amazing theatre critics, especially in the Toronto scene. But there are just sometimes that I see a piece of criticism on theatre that, like I said, it’s that definitive.
This is not a good show. You should not go see it. Or even the reverse.
If someone says this is definitive, the best, definitively the best thing I’ve ever seen. If someone sees that online or sees that in a paper and then goes and sees that show and they don’t love it, then that could be that person saying, okay, I don’t trust this critic or even worse, this could be their first piece of theatre and they might be really discouraged and say, you know, I don’t know if I’m going to go back and see theatre because of this. So I think with criticism, we always need to be careful with not giving definitive subjective.
This is good. This isn’t good. But rather find ways to lead an audience to make their own decision on whether they want to see that show or not.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely. I think there is, in some circles, there’s almost an attitude of boosterism for theatre in Toronto and around Canada. I know that there are shows that people have raved about and the show didn’t, in my opinion, deserve those raves.
And I think that when we do that, like you’re saying, we’re doing an audience a disservice, especially for those first timers, because let’s face it. Theatre is the only art form that I could think of where somebody goes to it, doesn’t like it and goes, well, I saw a play once and I didn’t like it, so I don’t like theatre. It’s a weird thing that does happen.
Yeah. Do you have a relationship with the theatres in the same way that critics do? Do you get invited to shows or is it entirely, as you said earlier, you’re taking your adult money and going to see the shows or do the theatres ever invite you to come and see the show?
[Ryan McCollom]
I’m beginning to get invited to shows, which is something that when I first started this process, I thought, oh, that would be cool if one day I could get invited to something and that has begun. So I feel incredibly honored to be invited to shows like this. But there, I think there still is, you know, because of the way I make my content and because of the fact, like I said, I’m not purely a critic.
I also do a lot of commentary and just, you know, almost informal type content, informing audiences about going to shows. I think that there are still some of the larger theatres that may not necessarily see me in the same lens that they see critics, but I’m completely okay with that. I’m happy wherever this journey takes me.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely. I think it’s interesting the way that theatres may be viewing social media in general. Some of them are using it well and others are not.
And for the ones that are not, I don’t know if they’re prioritizing it. Do you know what I mean? What do you see as far as theatres and social media?
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, I think, like you said, there are some that get it and some that don’t. And I think especially when we think about indie theatres and smaller theatre companies where they don’t have the budget to casually throw an ad on the TTC or put up 500 billboards across the city. It’s just so important because especially when we’re thinking about bringing a younger audience into the theatre, because that is the audience who, if we get people excited now, we will continue seeing theatre for the rest of our lives.
That audience is on social media. And if you create something that goes onto social media that doesn’t cost you any money, there’s a chance that only 10 people see it. And that’s okay.
But there’s also a chance that thousands and thousands of people will see it. And I think it’s something that theatres may not necessarily know how to do, which is totally okay. It is something that, while social media isn’t new, it’s constantly evolving.
And how companies are using it, and I think the ease of just being able to pick up your phone and create a piece of marketing material may be scary to some people, but I think it’s something that’s absolutely essential. And if a theatre company isn’t at least trying it, my question is why? What’s the worst that can happen?
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, I guess the worst that could happen is they put out something that’s kind of cringe. But that, you know, everything you put out the first time is kind of cringe, if you’re going to be really honest.
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah. And I don’t think anyone will ever say, oh, I was thinking of going to see the show and I’m not going to because of that TikTok that they just put out. I think, like you said, the worst that could happen is someone who doesn’t know who they are sees it and thinks, oh, that’s a little bit weird and moves on.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, for sure. I do think it is interesting that, you know, we’re talking about, you know, bringing in the younger audience. And I do think that there’s a number of theatres in the city that, that have, um, uh, they’re fighting sort of an internal battle where they know they need to bring in a new audience, but they are also beholden to their existing audience, which skews older and those are their subscribers.
And so they’re, they’re walking this fine line between wanting to bring in this younger audience without alienating the older audience. And I think that some of them are making the choice to prioritize their existing audience over bringing in a new audience. Is that something that, that resonates with you?
[Ryan McCollom]
Is that something that you think of? A hundred percent. I think that’s kind of part of the inspiration that led me to creating this account, actually.
It was almost two years ago. Now I was visiting the Stratford festival and I’d visited a ton of times with my family growing up, but hadn’t gone for a few years. So decided to take a trip up myself, stayed there for a couple of nights and saw a few shows.
And every show I walked into, I looked around and I thought, wow, I could count on my fingers, the number of people that I see that look like they’re under 40 right now. And it almost scared me in a way, because I thought if we don’t get younger people into seeing theatre, then 20 years from now, 30 years from now, who is going to be seeing theatre? So I think like you said, it’s tricky.
I don’t have a solution to the problem because we have that older base that often for a lot of the smaller professional theatres too, those are their donors. Those are the people who are making very generous donations to keep these theatre companies running. But people who are young professionals right now who are in their 20s, 30s, and even 40s, those are your future donors who, if you get them inspired to follow your company and to see your show now, those are the people who will be helping you in the future.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, absolutely. It, it is to me, one of the great mysterious things about the industry. And that’s the question of what do the, what can the theatres do?
What should they do to bring in the younger audience? And I think they’re struggling with it too, because I don’t think they know. And they don’t know how to talk about theatre and what makes it unique and what makes it different from movies, you know?
Yeah.
[Ryan McCollom]
I think part of that kind of looping back to social media, just showing what you are going to be giving the audience is such an important piece of things. It’s tough for indie theatre because, you know, I’m going to use Mirvish as an example, they have Ann Juliet running right now and they’ve been creating some really awesome behind the scenes content of showing how the quick changes work, showing how, how some of the behind the scenes works for an indie company or a smaller professional company that only has a couple of week run. By the time you put out that content, your show’s already over.
But thinking about, I think a peek behind the curtain is what audiences want to see. Something that will make them think, oh, this is something that I’m interested in seeing more of. So is that rehearsal footage?
Is that setting up a camera during your first table read and posting a 30 second clip of a really great monologue onto Instagram and TikTok to get people to say, wow, I want to see more of this. Is it a behind the scenes of you moving into the theatre during tech week? I think there are so many things that are already happening that we just need to hold a camera up and film that if theatre companies put this on, that’s what could get younger people interested in following that theatre company’s journey and that show’s journey.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, I’ve heard it said in the past, you know, Sue Edworthy, who is a theatre promoter and marketing genius in Toronto, once said that the theatres need to remember that what what what happens behind the scenes, what happens in the rehearsal hall, all of that stuff is magic to an audience. You know, when when when people see a show and they do a talkback, often one of the first questions they ask is, how did you learn all those lines? That’s how magical it is behind the scenes to people.
And finding ways to share that, I think you’re right, is is a great way to connect with an audience. Now, connecting with an audience, I think, as a content creator is is really important, and I think one of the things that you do really well is you you’ve utilized TikTok’s parasocial thing because it because your face is here and I’m looking at it here, it feels like you’re talking to me, right? And that is a useful tool in terms of in terms of of of telling a story and getting across what you want to get across.
But I think you also have a really great way of of talking about the theatre and telling what what you’re excited about. How have you developed the way that you speak to the camera over time?
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, thank you for that. First of all, I think when I began my journey, so I’ve been using Instagram in a kind of alter ego account form since early COVID. And first I was posting the food that I was cooking during the pandemic.
Then when I was able to start traveling again, I was posting stories about my travels. And it was always for me just purely personal, purely. I was not trying to grow followers.
I just wanted to have a place to document so I could look back months and years later, which I still do. But kind of as I started getting into theatre more and like I said, when I had that pivotal moment at the Stratford Festival, I thought, OK, people need to see this more. And I think I could help create that a space where people could learn more about theatre.
I think the shift in how I created my content was that shift from I’m creating this for myself to I’m creating this for an audience. So when I’m thinking about what kind of content I want to create going forward, I think about what questions are people asking in my comments when I’m talking to people that I know in real life about the theatre. What things did they not know?
What things would be beneficial to tell someone about? So really thinking about, will the video that I’m about to create provide value to someone? And sometimes that value is entertainment.
There are sometimes silly little videos that I create, but again, that value is providing entertainment and growing my audience so more people can see my videos where I am, like I said, talking about what theatre is coming up or talking about a piece of theatre that I saw and I really enjoyed and I think people can see as well. So really just always putting my audience first and foremost. But at the same time, trying to be true and authentic to myself.
So I’m never going to say something on camera that I don’t believe in. If I don’t love a show, I’m not going to say I absolutely love the show. Like I said, I’ll talk about elements that I loved about it because I don’t think I’ve ever seen a show that I’ve truly disliked start to finish.
There’s not something that I ever liked about it. And if there was, I probably would choose just not to talk about that show because, like I said, I don’t see the value in telling an audience not to go see a piece of theatre, but also just making sure that it sounds authentic. And I think, you know, I’m not an actor, so you’ll know when I’m speaking authentically.
So when I am speaking to the camera and giving that information, it is coming from me authentically. And I think the fact that I am fairly new to seeing theatre, I haven’t well, not seeing theatre, but seeing indie theatre and smaller theatre. I’m just one or two steps ahead of the audience that I’m trying to educate.
So everything that I’m telling people about when I’m talking about a great show that I saw, Crows or Soul Pepper, three years ago, I hadn’t seen a show of Crows and Soul Pepper. So I’m really learning alongside my audience sometimes. And I think that that really helps the authenticity and knowing what will resonate with the people that I’m talking to.
[Phil Rickaby]
What has surprised you about the indie theatre that you’re seeing?
[Ryan McCollom]
I think, first off, how much there is in Toronto, like the amount of times that I’ve seen a show pop up on my Instagram feed or I found information about it, and I thought, OK, I thought I had a good handle by this point on all the indie theatre companies that were going on. But this is a company I’ve never heard of. This is in a theatre space I’ve never heard of before.
So just the fact, the amount of new things that you’re discovering is amazing. And I think also just how powerful it can be with how few resources sometimes indie companies have to work with. I think growing up, what I always loved the most about shows was, you know, the big sets, just the grandeur of it all.
So going in to see indie theatre for the first couple of times, I was a little apprehensive because I thought, you know, you’re not going to have a giant set piece come flying and you’re not going to have an actor lifting up from below the stage. Those are some things that I really look for. So what will a production look like without it?
But I quickly realized that it doesn’t matter. Those things are great in their own way. And I want that to be clear as well.
I am still a huge fan of big theatrical productions. I love it so much. But there’s just something so special about going into an unassuming room, sitting down on a folding chair and seeing what maybe a thousand dollars worth of things that they thrifted and a few lights that they’ve hung from the ceiling are able to transport you into another world and tell an amazing story.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s one of the things that I love about theatre is the way that if you don’t have the money for a set. Changing your scene and getting the audience to go along with it is as simple as saying the scene has changed and now we are here and it’s a device that Shakespeare used. He would say, now we are on the planes of whatever.
And the audience would be like, now we’re on the planes of whatever. And it’s this fascinating thing where it’s one of the few theatrical forms where the audience will suspend its disbelief. A hundred percent.
I don’t know if you know that, you know, there’s a big facetious, but like Canadian theatre is a pretty niche topic. How, what, what has been the greatest challenge in navigating that niche as a content creator?
[Ryan McCollom]
You know, I think I’ve been so lucky in the way that because it is such a niche topic, it’s part of what’s been able to help my growth and an audience find what they’re looking for in my content. And because, you know, like I said before, when I was looking at all the different New York content creators, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people talking about New York theatre and Broadway on TikTok. But in Canada, there really aren’t that many.
I think we do have a lot of people who are on their blogs talking about theatre. And these are people that I think don’t get the attention that they deserve. And whenever someone says, wow, it’s so refreshing to hear someone talking about Canadian theatre.
I’ve never seen this before. I always do want to give credit and say, no, no, there are people talking about it. There are people who have been doing an amazing job for years and years.
They just aren’t necessarily on the platform that you are on. But I think that because I was able to come in in a time when I think, especially with like, say the Wicked movie coming out of things like that, there really has been a resurgence of the theatre kid on social media. When I’m creating my content and people are finding my content, there is a need that I am filling.
And I think, like I said, I just feel grateful to have come in and be able to be creating content that people want to see. And like I said, it’s almost not feeling like a struggle being part of this niche. It’s just finding something that I’m passionate about that fits into a niche that’s underserved.
Yeah, for sure.
[Phil Rickaby]
You have traveled with the content you’re making. You’ve talked about shows that you’ve seen in New York, in London’s West End. So you’ve got quite a breadth of theatre and theatrical experiences under your belt.
Is there something that you are noticing or have noticed about the difference between theatre in New York and in the West End compared with theatre in Canada, in Toronto?
[Ryan McCollom]
Oh, that’s a tough one. I think just for me personally, with how much theatre I see in, whether it’s abroad or New York or at home in Toronto, I think what I love about seeing theatre in Toronto is the fact that there’s more of a familiarity to it. So there are artists that I’ve seen in three or four different shows that I’m seeing again in this show versus if you don’t live in a city, it’s difficult to get to know its theatre scene to that level of, I know these artists.
I’ve seen them in shows before. You may have seen someone in another Broadway show or another West End show, but it’s really refreshing to see a theatre artist in Toronto, whether that’s someone who’s writing the show or set design or lighting or someone who’s written a show that I can go see another show and think, okay, I have no idea what I’m expecting in this show, but I absolutely love this person’s performance. I love this person’s design.
I can’t wait to see what they do with the next one. So I think in terms of the content that we’re creating here, I can’t really think of anything at the moment, but just in terms of the people in the community, I love Toronto’s theatre community and seeing artists. There are a few artists who I saw in a Fringe Festival show and then saw in an indie production and then now they’re starring in a Crows show or an Amervis show.
So seeing those artists grow from the beginning of their career to now what is the height of their career is also something that’s amazing to watch in Toronto. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, speaking of Fringe, we’ve had a relatively recent success. I think it was last year, the show Monks was a big hit at Fringe and then it went on to an encore production, I think at the Assembly Theatre. And then it’s going to be, I think it’s part of one of the seasons this year.
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, it’s part of Terragon season. I haven’t had a chance to see that show yet, but I’m definitely looking forward to catching it at Terragon.
[Phil Rickaby]
It was a tough ticket in all of its iterations so far. It’s been a tough ticket to get. But the people who, everybody has talked up that show for me, and it’s rare that a show from Fringe gets talked up that much.
I haven’t seen anything like that, honestly, since Kim’s Convenience at Fringe. And that’s one of the fascinating things is to see a show grow and get more opportunities and for the artists as well.
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, and I think that that’s something that is frustrating but also magical about the Toronto theatre community and Canadian theatre in general. The fact that when you see a show, you really, really hope that it’s going to have a life beyond the production that you’ve seen, but you know that it might not. So you know that this production that you’re seeing right now may be the only opportunity there is to see a show.
I think that’s something that I love about theatre in general is just the fact that what you’re seeing is right now in the moment and may never be replicated again. But on the flip side, it’s sad because you see the show and you think, this is one of the best shows I’ve seen all year, but maybe a thousand people are going to see it throughout its run and it might not have a life beyond it. So whenever I see a show that I love getting picked up for another run or getting the opportunity to play a bigger venue, that is a very rewarding thing about Canadian theatre.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, because it is so rare. There are so many shows that only get one performance, whether they’re at a Tarragon, a Factory, a Theatre Passe-Muraille or another venue, and that’s the only time we’ll ever see them. They might have their four-week run there or whatever it is, and I think that it is the downside to the way that our theatres operate.
They have this finite season, they have a finite number of seats, and they’re all busy doing their own shows, and so we don’t have the opportunity for a show. It’s so rare for a show to essentially make the jump from off-Broadway to Broadway. We don’t have an equivalent here that people are able to follow.
[Ryan McCollom]
Mm-hmm, 100%. I think we’re starting to see a little bit of it. Last year, Mirvish brought Crows Productions of The Great Comets to the Mirvish season.
This season, in their off-Mirvish season, The Wrong Bashir, which also premiered at Crows, is moving up to Mirvish. But those are just two examples, and I think that there is so much more we can do with those small-to-mid-level companies picking up something that had an indie production a year ago that did amazing and bringing it into their season, versus, like you said, just so many new things going on that we’re not focusing in on something that already did well and saying, okay, how can we workshop this show and do another production of it and grow it to be the next great Canadian player musical export?
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. I mean, I love that Mirvish-Crows connection, because it has given a few shows a second life, and I think it’s great to see Mirvish investing in that kind of thing, because they’re the ones that have that money, that can do that. I’m thinking years ago, they brought in a show from Fringe, My Mother’s Lesbian Wiccan Wedding—I think it has a slightly longer title—which they put on what is now the CAA, and then those writers went on to write Come From Away, arguably one of the biggest shows in the world and one that everybody is doing this year.
And it’s great when Mirvish can elevate and lift up smaller productions, and I think that’s absolutely fabulous.
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, and I think that that’s something that, again, kind of getting back to my reason for why I create content, something that frustrates me with the Toronto Theatre audience, and I try to change the point of view of, because so, Mirvish announced their season this year, and it was a departure from their previous seasons. They have less of the big touring Broadway shows coming in. They have some original Canadian content that looks amazing, but seeing people’s opinions on it, they’re asking, oh, where’s this show that won a Tony Award last year?
Where’s this show that’s just starting its tour? And I feel like we have such a great focus on Canadian sovereignty right now and really elevating Canada as a country. So where is that attitude when it comes to elevating Canadian shows and saying, hey, this show, which has started at Fringe and is now being put into Mirvish’s off-Mirvish season, that’s amazing.
I’m celebrating that. I want to go see it. So that’s still something that I really try to push with my content, but when I’m engaging with people in common sections too, I try to challenge people and say, okay, why are we not excited about this show?
What is it about this that makes you say, oh, I’d rather see this something that someone else told me is good first, instead of taking a chance on something Canadian that’s probably going to be amazing.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, the whole elbows up thing is really missing from a lot of the, especially in theatre, in the arts in general, but in theatre especially, it’s something that we don’t seem to find. People are like, I’m only going to buy Canadian groceries. And then it’s like, what about, what are you seeing at the theatre?
They’re like, I’m seeing Wicked, which is fine. It’s a great show. But like, what about the Canadian shows that Mirvish is putting on that really deserve a chance?
We should be celebrating our own.
[Ryan McCollom]
A hundred percent. And I think that that’s something, I did a video a couple of months ago, kind of expressing my frustration around that, but also asking people, what is stopping you from going and seeing these shows? And hearing people in my comment sections, there were some really interesting point of views, but I think the main thing that I heard from people was, I need someone to tell me that this is good before I go see it.
Which I think if you’ve been burned by indie theatre a ton of times before, then sure, have that point of view. But I don’t think it’s that. I think that people are just afraid to try something new, which, again, a little bit frustrating, because when I think about all the shows that I see, and again, I see big shows, I see small shows, I see everything in between, there are probably more shows from a touring show or a large show at one of the independent theatres that’s been really hyped up that I leave disappointed from than an indie show from a company that I knew absolutely nothing about. I think the smaller the company, the smaller the indie theatre, the more chance you have to be completely surprised and wowed by shows.
And I really wish that more people would just give a show a chance. You know, when you’re thinking about your time investment, your financial investment, you could go see two or three indie shows for the price of the cheapest Mirvish ticket. So just get out and see something, and I think you’ll be surprised by it.
Absolutely.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, we have to get over this, the cultural cringe that we have as Canadians about our own products. Sometimes it’s not just that we want somebody to tell us that it’s good. We want somebody from America or the UK to tell us it’s good, right?
We don’t trust our own product. And, you know, we have a history in our media of platforming some stuff that, when we were growing up, I think we can, I certainly grew up in an era where a lot of the television that was Canadian produced was really bad. And so that sort of like really sort of sits with you.
People forget, I think, that everything has changed about the industry, and we’re producing really great stuff. And it’s in all the industries. But it’s hard to shake the Canadian, the cultural cringe that we seem to have.
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, and I think we’re at a really interesting point right now because we’re kind of getting there in the film and TV industry with shows like Schitt’s Creek and Heated Rivalry, where they’re becoming such big international hits and people are saying, oh, wow, there’s some great stuff coming out of Canada. So we’re at such a point where the Canadian arts are getting that spotlight on it. We need, as a Canadian theatre industry, to also show that we create some really great stuff here as well.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, absolutely. I’m thinking, like recently I’ve been hearing that, you know, the Canadian Screen Awards were just the other day, and I’ve heard people talking about how interest in North of North, which is another TV show that’s made in Canada, because of the attention it got there, is starting to get attention globally from other places because everybody was watching the Canadian, the CSAs because of Heated Rivalry, that now they’re interested in these other shows. And I think it’s like when we raise one up, we raise all the others as well. Everybody comes along for the ride.
And we have to find ways to do that in theatre too. Ryan, I’m curious how you, how you started to care about theatre in the first place. What, what is it that made you, did you go to see a show when you were younger?
What made you first start watching theatre?
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, I think I have members of my family who love theatre. So I was very lucky to be brought along to Mervis shows and the Stratford Festival from a young age. I think my first theatre memory is seeing The Lion King when it had its long run in Toronto years ago.
And I remember I was sitting on an aisle seat and watching the animals go past you. That was just the coolest thing in the world to me. So it was always an art form that really interested me.
And I think, like I said, as I grew older and now as I’m expanding my breadth of theatre up until a few years ago, I’d probably only seen a handful of plays. I really enjoyed musicals. I loved them.
I love listening to musical soundtracks, seeing them live. But plays were something that I thought, again, oh, what I love about musicals are the big songs, seeing the big numbers, seeing the large sets and costumes and everything are plays, something that I really want to see as well. But then starting to kind of dip my toe into seeing plays and seeing a few that were really powerful to me, like ones that really stood out to me, seeing The Goader, who is Sylvia at the Stratford Festival a couple of years ago.
Salesman in China, which I’m so excited. That’s another one that Mirvish is bringing a piece of Canadian content to its next season. And that was such a powerful play for me.
But just seeing the ways that a play can move you in the same way, if not in a bigger way, sometimes that a musical can because you’re just so locked in on the drama and what’s happening on stage. That’s something to me. Growing up, I’d never been a big movie person.
I don’t dislike them. It’s just never something that’s a priority for me to say, hey, I can go see this movie. There’s just something about theatre, like I said before, the immediacy of it all.
I think also now with the rise of AI and all of these things in media that you don’t know if what you’re seeing is real or not. When you’re going to a theatre and you see someone delivering the show in front of you, right in front of you, not on a screen, that’s something that I think is an experience that I crave. And I really think, OK, I want to get more of this.
It’s just, yeah, what I love.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. I mean, there is nothing like being in a room and feeling an entire audience hold their breath. It’s like this thing where you just like it’s electric and the whole audience, just like everybody together doing the same thing.
It is a fascinating phenomenon and a wonderful thing to experience. And it doesn’t happen in any other art form, really. It doesn’t happen in film in the same way.
It doesn’t happen in TV, in the performing arts, maybe in dance, maybe in opera. It can happen. But in the theatre, in that pure acting stuff, that’s where it happens.
I think it’s one of those magical things that only exists in the theatre. Do you, you know, you’ve been talking about a little bit about indie theatre and about how people don’t go to see it very much. Do you have a sense, and maybe it comes from your own experience or the things that you’ve talked to, is it because people have been burned that they don’t want to see indie theatre?
Is it because they don’t know about it? What’s your sense about indie theatre and why people don’t go to see it?
[Ryan McCollom]
I think it’s 100 percent just the lack of awareness around it. People don’t know about it. And I think, you know, like I said from that video that I did in hearing people’s comments, I think it’s the sense of this is a big show in a big theatre.
Therefore, I know big is good. Small is not going to be as exciting or as good. And I say that from my own experience as well.
Because like I said, I thought, oh, you know, these are the elements that I love about a show. Is this show going to live up to it without having some of those elements? So I think it’s just kind of that stereotype of what we picture a piece of theatre as being that large, high production value thing.
And knowing that we’re not going to get that from indie theatre. I think people just need to go and experience something themselves. And like we said before, not having someone who’s able to tell you that something’s good.
Even when I review a piece of indie theatre, I always try to get my review out the next day. And it’s easy for me because I just set up my phone. I talk at it for a few minutes.
I pause a bunch of times. I think about what I’m going to say next. But then I edit it and upload it.
But even then, with me getting my review out the day after opening night, there still might be only three or four chances to see that show before it closes. So I think really that is what is holding people back, is not having that opportunity to say, hey, this indie show is getting crazy reviews. It’s running for the next three months.
So let’s find some time in the next three months to go see this piece of theatre. And obviously, that doesn’t exist because it has a couple week run. So I think just people not willing to give a chance to something that they don’t know.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. And it’s really quite, it’s too bad. Because if you look at some of the work that’s going on at two of the smallest theatres in the city, the Assembly Theatre and the Red Sandcastle, these are small theatres that are producing work that’s award-winning.
Each of them has produced shows that are Dora award-winning shows or Dora-nominated shows, at the very least. And at the Red Sandcastle, Eldritch Theatre is doing like magic, literal magic, and puppets. I remember Eric Wolf’s Macbeth, which was just him and a bunch of puppets.
And it was riveting. And these things that you don’t expect. And that’s the thing about indie theatre is it’ll catch you by surprise.
It’ll be something that you never would expect. And it can be so exciting. But again, like you said, sometimes the run is too slow.
You have to convince people of the urgency to see it now and not wait.
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah. And hearing you talk about those theatres, another theatre company that comes to mind for me is the King Black Box. It is, if you haven’t been there before, it is in an apartment above a fast food place or a cannabis store in Parkdale in Toronto.
You go in and the lobby of the theatre is an apartment, kitchen slash living room. And then you go into another room that I think must be like another apartment that they took a couple of walls down in. But you go in there, you sit down, and I’ve seen two productions there.
And they were both incredible. You are transported to another world. Again, the set looks unassuming.
It looks like something that they put together from Home Depot and you don’t see a ton of lights around. But just the amount of things that they were able to do in that space with the talent that they work with is incredible. And if someone’s never seen an indie show before, my favourite thing to do is to bring a friend who’s seen a Mervis show but hasn’t seen an indie show to one of these venues and having them say, oh, what are we getting ourselves into?
And then leaving feeling absolutely amazed because magic happened in that small space. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
I think one of the shows of the King Black Box is nominated for a Dora award this year. Bug, I think, is up for Dora.
[Ryan McCollom]
Yeah, I think they got nominations for both that and Romeo Pimp. And Romeo Pimp was one of the first indie shows that I saw and absolutely fell in love with and one of the shows that got me craving more indie theatre and searching to see, OK, what else can I see that will affect me emotionally the way that this show did? It was incredible.
And it’s funny thinking about thinking about Bug as well. I saw that show at the King Black Box and two months later it had a production on Broadway and I saw it on Broadway and phenomenal production. But I think looking at them both, I prefer the King Black Box production because with the show that it was and with the way that it was staged, seeing it in such an intimate space with the action happening literally two feet in front of you.
If I wanted to, I could have reached down and touched the actors, which I obviously didn’t. But it just really seeing a show that up close and seeing a show, again, the magic of walking into a room, unassuming, not knowing what’s going to happen there, it’s just so, so, so powerful. So I think that’s really a testament to it’s not even going in and saying, oh, set your expectations lower because this isn’t going to have a big Broadway budget and a big Broadway stage.
But just set your expectations differently. The things you’re going to love about this show might not be the same things that you love about a large scale production, but if you truly love theatre, you’re going to find something that you love.
[Phil Rickaby]
And speaking of that, my final question for you is if you were talking to somebody in Toronto who has absolutely never been to a play and they wanted to start, what advice would you give them and what would be your recommendation?
[Ryan McCollom]
I think first off, just see something. It doesn’t matter what your first show is, just go see something. But I really do think that look up the shows, like watch one of my videos, go to stagedoor.com, look through what they have on their directory of what’s coming up. And if there’s something where the subject matter really interests you, then take a chance on that show because there are so many shows going on in Toronto at any given time. In a month period, there has to be something that’s going to appeal to everyone. And when I do my videos specifically talking about plays, I’ll sometimes give a recommendation and say, hey, if you’re someone who’s never seen a play before, this I think would be a good introduction, whether it’s something that has musical elements in it, if it’s that has, you know, a shorter runtime, something where it feels like a more digestible thing, I think that is a great place to start.
But yeah, at the end of the day, see something. You could see an indie show in Toronto for 30, 40 bucks. That’s less than you’d pay for a dinner out.
A lot of indie shows also have a shorter runtime. So you are putting $40, 90 minutes of your life into it. Even if you don’t absolutely love it, what do you have to lose?
And I’m pretty certain that you will love it and want to see more. Absolutely.
[Phil Rickaby]
Ryan, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. It was great to chat with you and get to know you.
And thanks for doing what you do. Thank you so much. It was great chatting with you as well, Phil.
Thank you for listening to this episode of Stageworthy. Before I tell you who my guest is next week, please let me tell you about my Patreon, because I cannot make this show without the people who’ve chosen to back me on Patreon. It costs money to make a podcast.
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It is work that I am not paid for, and I do it because I love it. But if you would like to help support me in the making of this show, please consider becoming a patron. Go to patreon.com slash stageworthy and sign up there. Patrons get early access to episodes. We will have interesting conversations about things that are happening in the world of theatre. And the more people who join the Patreon, the more I will be able to offer to my patrons.
So if that sounds interesting to you, if you want to help me to make Stageworthy, because that is exactly what my patrons do, they help me to make this podcast, go to patreon.com slash stageworthy and become a patron. My guest next week is the Artistic Director of the Shaw Festival, Tim Carroll. I am thrilled to be able to talk to him about his journey being the Artistic Director at Shakespeare’s Globe, coming to Canada to lead the Shaw Festival.
I know that you’re going to love that conversation too, so make sure you tune in to that next week on Stageworthy.
