Adam Lazarus is Throwing a Party About Falling Apart
About This Episode:
Adam Lazarus is an award-winning theatre creator, director, and acting instructor whose work has toured nationally and internationally. His show Daughter, a searingly provocative exploration of toxic masculinity, has played stages around the world. Now he’s back with something new: Versus, a one-person show running at the Theatre Centre in Toronto from November 11 to 28, and it might just be the most hopeful thing he’s ever made.
Guest: 🎭 Adam Lazarus
Adam Lazarus is an award-winning theatre creator, actor, director, and acting instructor whose work has been showcased nationally, in the United States, Australia and in Europe. Adam brings a dark and comic sensibility to all of his work and is known for dynamic and implicating solo performances, including the international thought disrupter Daughter; the radical race oration The Art of Building a Bunker (co-written with Guillermo Verdecchia), the vicious bouffon love play Wonderland, and his latest anxiety odyssey Versus.
Adam has acted as a creation director and coach for countless actors, musicians, speakers, comedians, dancers and performance artists, helping them to spark and form characters and narratives, worlds and images. He is s a graduate and former apprentice of Phillipe Gaulier and a regular acting instructor at the National Theatre School of Canada, Canadian Film Centre, Pig Iron, University of Toronto, Columbia, and Penn.
Notable credits include Jenn Kidwell’s off-Broadway hit We Come to Collect; Other People by Daniel Brooks; The Appointment by Lightening Rod Special; Honey, I‘m Home by Lester Trips; No One’s Special at the Hot Dog Cart by Charlie Petch, Appetite for Volcano/Theatre Passe Muraille; [boxhead] for Crow’s Theatre/Mamalian Diving Reflex; Tyumen, Then for Groundwater Productions; and Le Fain de Partie for Luminato Festival.
Currently: Adam is developing a reverse home invasion horror called At the Speed of Business, and his first novel of bouffon musings, titled I’m Shit.
Connect with Adam Lazarus:
📸 Instagram: @adlazarus
🎥 TikTok: @adlaz
📸 Instagram: @versus_feelalive
🎟️ Versus runs at the Theatre Centre, Toronto: November 11–28. Get Tickets.
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Transcript
[Phil Rickaby]
Hello, welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host and producer of this podcast. Stageworthy is Canada’s theatre podcast, and on Stageworthy I talk to theatre makers of all kinds, from actors to directors to playwrights and more.
If they make theatre in Canada, I talk to them. Some of the people I talk to are household names, and the rest are people that I really think you should get to know. My guest this week is Adam Lazarus.
Adam is an award-winning theatre creator, director, acting instructor. He’s been showcased nationally and internationally. His show, Daughter, has performed all over the world.
His new show, Versus, runs at the Theatre Centre in Toronto from November 11 to the 28th. I’ve been interested in talking about this show since I spoke to Alexis Eastman, who’s the creative producer on this show, and so when the opportunity came up to talk to Adam about it, I jumped at the chance. This show sounds so interesting to me, so I hope you enjoy the conversation.
Before we get into it, if you are listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, please consider leaving a rating and a review. Your ratings and reviews help new people to find this show, so if you could do that, I would be so grateful. And now, here’s my conversation with Adam Lazarus.
Adam Lazarus, thank you so much for joining me. You have a new show that you’re working on that’s coming, that’s going to be premiering soon. I know you’ve been workshopping it for a while, and I know that you had a super-secret preview of it a while back, but the show is Versus, and it’s going to be opening soon.
What is Versus?
[Adam Lazarus]
Okay, have you ever, you know this feeling, sort of like, do you know what I mean when I do that? Yes, I do, yeah. That’s the place.
I like to say that because that is the impetus of the show and how it was born was out of this feeling of like, am I doing this right? Am I doing it wrong? Am I like, am I too much?
Am I too little? Am I like, am I making a waste-free lunch? Am I like, good enough to my aging parents?
Am I good enough? You know, all that stuff. Am I living life?
How do people be in the world? And so, I wanted to write a play about that, and that’s the vibe of the show, or the, I’d say, the undercurrent of the show. The actual narrative is a guy, Gerald Bloom, waking up on his birthday with this feeling, and it won’t go away.
And he is approaching the day with a bit of a fight, like a bit of a Versus feeling of trying to conquer this feeling by, you know, showing up with your best self, and it keeps failing him. So, it fails at home, it fails at work, it fails when visiting his ailing mother, and it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse and worse.
[Phil Rickaby]
So, the show was born out of you having that feeling. How did you bring, how did that feeling become this show? Like, what made you think, this, I could turn this into a show.
[Adam Lazarus]
I think I’m going to do a really roundabout way of answering the question, but I had this year of having a, I had a year where my father passed away, my mother had a stroke, a brain aneurysm, cancer, my sister went through a very messy divorce, my hair turned white, and we had a moth infestation in our basement. And I was like, whoa, life has just gone, and it’s right there. All these things.
I think I wrote this to you, nobody was lying about any of it. Death, disease, divorce, my thinning hairline. And I thought, well, that’s a show.
And this feeling, I think, is pervasive in the world, we’re all trying to do our best. And so, in the creation of the play, it’s, what is the container that could tell that story? So, very, very early days, it took place at a dinner party.
By the way, it’s a one-person show, I didn’t say that. So, I’m sort of miming and interacting with people who aren’t there, or sometimes the audience, and there’s lots of prop play and magic and some great stuff that happens in the show. But yeah, so what was the container?
So, early days, it was a dinner party where I was at a dinner party with that feeling of wanting to show up at a dinner party as my best self. And then somehow, through many workshops and writing and rewriting with Guillermo Verdecchia, the co-writer of the play, we landed on, let’s do a day in the life of. And then we just started to build, what do people actually do in a day?
They wake up, they get dressed, they get their kids ready. If you have kids, you try and get out the door in one piece, you go to work, you make phone calls you have to make, you go shopping for that somebody asked you to get, and so on. So, that one of it.
And yeah, we just wanted to kind of pummel this character and make things really difficult for him, and him being the cause of it. His outlook isn’t, he doesn’t know how to do it right.
[Phil Rickaby]
Oh. Like, so his, in the way that none of us know how to do anything is, the play is him stumbling through this day and just making a mess of it.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
Making a mess of, and really making a mess of himself. Because I think this, it’s an existential problem that we should be better going through the day, interacting with people, and then we’re not. And we should have the resources to do it, but we’re not.
So, I think that the tremor is like, you ain’t doing this right, buddy. And that keeps taking over. And then, I’m sort of giving away the show in a way, but a lot of the past shows I’ve written, they end with a bit of a gut punch, and the world’s messed up.
Bye. And that’s the end of the show. And I wanted to not do that with this piece.
I wanted to end on a bit of hope, where we got to keep showing up. There’s nothing, there’s no quick fix of how to live this good life. We just have to keep showing up and showing up.
And I think the more we were like, oh, I’m just bad. I’m just not doing it right. And that sort of self, I don’t want to say self loathing, but self-criticism is not necessarily the thing that’s going to help.
It’s listening, it’s being in community, it’s celebrating, taking the small moments, things like that. Perhaps that softness comes from me aging and having some tough times.
[Phil Rickaby]
Now, was that the desire for a more hopeful ending, was that something you all wanted to do from the beginning or did that develop as you worked on the show?
[Adam Lazarus]
I think I always knew the ending. Yeah. Without saying actually what the ending is.
And it’s not a pat ending in any way, but I feel we’re also in, collectively as a species, we’re tired of being told that we’re wrong all the time. And so, you know, bouffon classically, that this is a form that I love to work in, you’re calling out the hypocrisies of the world and just saying these exist, by the way, you’re part of the, you’re contributing to it. You’re the perpetrator of that problem.
You go fix it. And I think I had a concern that if we were told that we were bad one more time, people would stop coming to the theatre. Like, don’t tell me I’m I know it.
I know it already. So in this play, I wanted to celebrate that. I know I’m bad.
I know that I’m messing up and I’m working really hard to be a good person and I’m still messing up. And let’s, you know, let’s witness that Versus you’re the problem.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. When did the, you know, you mentioned how this idea came to you. When did this start to gestate?
When did this idea for the show first come to you? Was it, was it a post-pandemic thing or was it a mid-pandemic thing? Was it pre-pandemic?
It was pre-pandemic.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah. So I started working on this at the tail end of another show that I was touring. And it was around the time where my mother got sick.
My father had, no, no, my father had not passed away. So my mother got sick and I wanted to do this show. I had this idea for this one person party where he, everyone is really good at showing up at the party, but he’s not.
And he doesn’t know why everybody’s puts on this veneer and is very kind to each other. And he just struggles to do that. And he wants to disrupt everything.
And he’s a bit of a piss, a pissy human. So that started to be created and we got, we had a workshop of that and then the pandemic hit. And so in the midst of the pandemic, the Theatre Centre invited me to keep working on something.
And so I did, I would keep writing through that and they were super supportive. And you find, oh my gosh, you know, praise the, all of the producers who kept artists feeling like they were artists during that time. And then I did a few more workshops and invited Guillermo again.
I’ve written a play with Guillermo before. And I said, Guillermo, do you want to write this play with me? Ann-Marie, do you want to co-direct it with, with Guillermo?
And then we got in the studio and one of the things, my belief is like a thousand hours of improvisation whittled down into the 90 minutes that you’ll see.
[Phil Rickaby]
Well, you had, I often think the way that we think about theatre in, has changed or at least the way that we’re relating to it, I think has changed in the after days of the after years of the pandemic. At least, you know, we’re starting to ask like, where’s the audience gone and things like that. But also perhaps our outlooks have changed on to, on how theatre, what theatre should say and what theatre should do.
Right. Yeah, I, I, I agree. You, you had, you had a good, like you were, had a residency with the Theatre Centre relatively recently and got to work on this show for a really long time.
What did that, that time that the Theatre Centre gave you to, to, to, to really work this show? What did it, what did it give you that you couldn’t have had otherwise?
[Adam Lazarus]
Hmm. Yeah. I feel like I want to answer, also respond to that comment that you made before and talk about the Theatre Centre.
There’s this great tagline I think we have with the, so I’m responding to when you said people’s outlooks have changed and people, are they going to the theatre? Why are they in the theatre? And I guess my perspective on that is people don’t want to be, they want to have a good time and they want to feel like they’re doing a thing at the And so that was also part of my mindset making this piece and this will lead into the Theatre Centre residency.
I’ve done shows where, you know, I put on like big character costumes or another show where I played 19 characters or the last show Daughter, I wanted to see what it was like to really strip away the mask and make the audience feel like they’re watching the person in have a confessional. And in doing that show, another impetus to write this one was I missed the theatre. I miss the tools of the theatre, like magic, lighting, sound cues, things like that, that were all gone from Daughter on purpose.
And I remember I was in Edinburgh with Daughter and I saw Geoff Sobelle’s Home. I don’t know if anyone’s seen it or you’ve seen it. It’s amazing.
You should see it. It’s they build a two-story house on stage and eventually populated with 70 people from the audience. It’s, it’s just wonderful.
And I love Jeff and I’ve seen his work progress from smaller shows to these big scale, like, you know, thousand seat, 2000 seat theatres. And I remember watching home going, I want to do that with Bouffon. And so I started with this idea of, I really want to think big about my next show rather than most Canadian productions, which are, we have three weeks and 50 bucks, let’s make it happen.
Of course, I’m exaggerating, but in a way, I think often we have this mindset of being small. So, um, a thing that they use, for example, in home is black art and black art is kind of an illusion where you have black panels and light walls too. So you don’t see past a certain point in the space.
And then people in velvet outfits who can make a prop appear or like lift me in the lift, somebody in the air. So it looks like they’re floating, things like that. So I’m like, I want to test that out.
And then I feel guilty because I’m like, oh, is that too much? Am I allowed to ask for things? And so enter the National Creation Fund and we applied for quite a sizable amount of money to go into a space to design and work with designers who would impact the show, the writing of the show, the performance of the show, and each designer impacts each other.
And we got enough money and we spent it on paying those designers and all the artists to be in a room for seven weeks, which is absurdly luxurious. And when I say absurd, I mean, we worked our asses off for seven weeks. So we weren’t like, you know, having cocktails, uh, every day we were working, but it was such a gift to be in that space and work the way I’ve always dreamt of working, which is let’s not have time.
And listen, we didn’t get that much money that we could like do every, like, we don’t have like hydraulics in the space and it’s not like a $6 million production at all, but we didn’t have to worry about certain funds. And that was, that was kind of amazing. And a shout out to them.
When we applied for it, sometimes I would say, and if we don’t get the money, we could also, we can make it, we can do this. And they said, no, no, no, please don’t do that. Only dream.
Keep your dream as large as you want. You want to build a show for 600 seat audiences, do it. That was awesome.
And you don’t often hear that. So, so theatre centre residency in conjunction with the National Creation Fund and funding from other government resources or government grants, we were able to, um, to be artists and be, be paid to do that. And at a theatre salary, let’s get real.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, nobody’s getting rich, but like, it’s still good to be able to, to, to have that time, make sure everybody gets paid and like, not have to rush the process.
[Adam Lazarus]
That’s it. That’s it. Yeah.
And also, you know, it’s a bit of a more European way where the designers are in the space from the get-go effect. Everybody is affecting everyone. It’s not an afterthought that comes in.
[Phil Rickaby]
That makes the, the, the things that are being designed so integral to this show, instead of like the, the show’s great. And also the design it’s like the whole thing becomes like one thing.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah, for sure. Like, Oh, I just forgot the name of the show. Darn.
It was an Andy Massingham show where the lighting was done by Rebecca Picherack and Michelle Ramsay called. Ooh, we’re going to have to look it up.
[Phil Rickaby]
Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
We’ll just, we’ll just take a second.
[Adam Lazarus]
Oh yeah. I can buy time. And, and the lighting was an integral character in the show when it was sort of like almost a cartoon where the lighting, you know, he would like try and catch the light and then it would appear on his hand and there would be a box that would appear and we’re trying to like eat it.
And also I, I thought of that often when we were making this, it’s not called space. It’s not called.
[Phil Rickaby]
I’m trying to, I’m trying to find it because I feel like I saw that. I saw a run of that at Young People’s Theatre, I think around the time that I think it was just after one of the Keystone Theatre shows. And it was very close to the silent film stuff that we were doing.
And I can’t find, I can’t find the name of the show.
[Adam Lazarus]
But the idea is like these designs where they are integral and they are a character in the play. So yeah, there’s a lot of, for example, sound is so important. David Mesiha, our sound designer, Michelle Ramsay is the lighting designer and Joanne Gallo is the set costume designer.
And then we have a magic consultant as well. Sorry, magic designer. I shouldn’t say that.
And so we’re all like in there together and everyone’s helping everyone and suddenly a magic moment will come in or an illusion will come in and then the sound needs to be activated to bump it up or cover something that I’m doing. And then the lighting will again, cover something that I’m doing or enhance it. Yeah.
Was your magic designer, Michael Cross? So that’s the illusion artist who’s in there. Oh, okay.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
He’s, and everyone is considered a co-creator on the show as well, all of main designers. And then there’s some other, there’s also some other people in there who are doing amazing work.
[Phil Rickaby]
That’s, uh, you kind of, you kind of described earlier that your previous shows have kind of been like a gut punch, or I think in the past you’ve used the phrase, the, the, the, the tonal, the tone of the show is punching people in the face. Um, and this one is more of a celebration of community. How does it feel to sit more in the community of it than the, the punching of it?
Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
Well, I punched myself, so there’s still, it’s still happening. I don’t know how to do it if it’s not punching and there’s things I think maybe people will be like, Ooh, that’s a bit controversial. I don’t know.
I never know with, with my place of what people are going to think. But I think, um, I, I like it. I think that’s easier on a really practical level.
It’s easier for me to perform it because at the end of, you know, Daughter, the last image of daughters, the lights going up on the audience. And I see, I can see the effect of the show on the people. And it’s, it’s hard, like, you know, whatever, it’s harder for you and the audience cause I’ve done a thing to you, but, and then I hide, like I go, I go and I live my life outside the play and I go on my way with my family and I live my normal, happy life for whatever normal, whatever normal is.
And then, but this one, I’m not afraid of the audience hating me. Not that I was ever afraid of the audience hating me because that was the point of, of Daughter. It’s definitely a thing that’s happening where it’s, it’s nicer to walk away from a show and people are smiling and, and still thoughtful of how do they want to engage with the world.
It’s still that I would hope, but yeah, so that, that would be my answer. It’s just, it’s a lot easier for me. And then to live in that space, I’m just trying to, we’re trying to make a show that’s effective, uh, entertaining, engaging, dynamic, good story.
You see a good arc of a, of a character. So all that’s of course, still in there. It’s just not actively mean.
And Daughter’s very mean play. Very, very mean play on purpose.
[Phil Rickaby]
Well, I did. I wanted to talk a little bit about Daughter because Daughter has, has travelled the world as, as you’ve said, and it is a show about toxic masculinity. And I know it, it premiered like the full play premiered at SummerWorks at some point, but did, did you perform parts of it at the Festival of Clowns at some point?
Or was that, did that, I’m trying to remember. Cause I remember, I think you were doing something at the Toronto Festival of Clowns at one point, but I don’t know.
[Adam Lazarus]
I don’t think I did Daughter. We did the art of building a bunker. I did a segment of art of building a bunker.
When you say that, which was also kind of a mean show. It’s like, you’re, you’re racist. We’re all raised that play.
And this one was, you’re a misogynist. You contribute to misogyny, the play. And this, this one is not that this one is life’s tough.
The play.
[Phil Rickaby]
Are you, you kind of mentioned the way that the audience sort of like feels about you as the, as the, as the, as the performer. In fact, you mentioned how like the, the performer is almost stripped away and you, it’s just you in, in that show. And, and like when you’re leaving the theatre after that, I, is I, I assume the audience is not like, Hey, I can’t wait to talk to the actor after this show.
Like, like what is that the relationship? Like, I know there were talkbacks after the show, but what were those like as well?
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah. So part of the rider of the show, whenever we toured was the Aisling Rose would tour with us and she would host a post show conversation without me. We tried early days with me being there and everyone was just like, is it you?
Is it you? What part is you? And I think, you know, Melissa D’Agostino, who’s one of the co-creators of that show too, along with Jim Warren and Ann Reeker, Melissa said, I think that they’re actually circling the right question when they ask that, because they, they want to know if they’re identifying with someone they know or a fiction.
And if it’s someone they know, it feels worse. So all this to say, I, I can’t be there because you, you, you start, um, not engaging with the art that is the play. You start engaging with the actor and wanting to know how they did that or why did they do that?
And, uh, yeah, Ashlyn masterfully after, I don’t know, a hundred shows. So she knew how to do it, would engage the room with, this is what Bouffon is. So this is the history and the evolution of my particular, uh, creation of Bouffon over many different plays.
And then would ask questions about the art and all feelings are, are, are welcome of course, but it was, can we engage with the piece that you just made rather than why did that guy do that? And the, or it’s like, yeah, well, why do we have this kind of art? Good question.
Like, let’s do that. Let’s talk about that. Yeah.
So yeah, Daughter was wild. It was like such a wild play. And this is kind of a funny story.
We in the room, it started with, imagine you told your children the things that you really did in your life. And I, we started to, you know, fictionalize or not. And nonfiction would be in there of things that you would dare say out loud, the stuff that you, you have done in private.
And I thought about friends and I thought about myself and I thought about uncles and I thought about my dad and I thought about people I’d heard about. And I thought of Jian Ghomeshi not being guilty. And that was a huge thing happening there.
And then Trump was just on the rise when we did the summer work production as well. And so I remember when we did, we did SummerWorks and people were like, that’s not true. That can’t be true.
Men aren’t like that. And I support that. And then it’s like, well, it got elected immediately after.
And so, yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
Well, not just, not just men aren’t like that, which, which, which they are, but also like, it’s not just Trump, but it’s also like the rise of the, the manosphere and the, and people who are perpetuating this kind of toxic masculinity and, and like encouraging it in others, which has, has been on the rise for years.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah. So like that show kind of becomes a warning, I think, because, you know, what’s complicated about the show and what’s very unnerving, I think, is at the beginning, I kind of come out in fairy wings and I’m like, I tell the story of how much I love my Daughter. And that’s not ever untrue.
And so this evil thing that arises throughout the play still loves his kid and thinks that they’re doing the best that they can, which is not correct. In that show, he never says, I’m sorry. It never takes any accountability.
And that was sort of, we never say that out loud, but that’s the problem is we’re all contributing in our own ways to this thing being born, which at its worst is the guy at the end. And also equally problematic is the insidious nature of the banality of evil at the beginning where the person doesn’t think they are, but they are actively contributing. Yeah.
Yeah. Like we haven’t solved that problem yet. I hope that show becomes completely irrelevant.
And then every, you know, whatever, a couple of weeks, Aisling’s like, Hey, check this video out. And it’s of some dingbat saying some dingbat thing.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. You know, it’s wild that like, well, I would hope that one day it becomes like a museum piece that people will look at it, go, this is what people use. This, this used to be there.
That would be, that would be wonderful.
[Adam Lazarus]
If we could look at it like that, if it could be that.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
When I talk about that too, with the bunker show, it’s like, maybe it’ll be behind glass one day. And like, it’s going to be somewhere in Berlin and there’s sausages and like, you can, and with a glass container and you just like grind sausage meat and it like fills up. So eventually this character just grounding and raw sausage meat, but we ain’t there yet.
So I think part of, it’s funny, I’m just kind of sort of thinking about this now is we got to keep showing up and doing the work. And it’s tiring to like, keep coming back and like fighting the good fight and trying to be a better person. But like, that’s just what we got to do or what it is.
We sit back. And I think in Versus that, I think he comes to that realization that I, I just need to one foot in front of the other. And it’s, there’s no like clear answer of how to, to live a good life.
And we go through our traumas and we go through our really tough moments and we just got to get, just keep going forward. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
You’ve mentioned, you mentioned Bouffon as an art form as a, as a, as a, as an element of your work for people who don’t know, what is Bouffon?
[Adam Lazarus]
I guess in its most base form is the artist satire. And so it’s making fun of the people who are in the room and holding a mirror up to them to show their hypocrisy. And it’s, that’s kind of it.
And it’s funny. And ideally you look and you laugh at it and then later realize, whoa, I was laughing at myself. So it’s a French physical theatre practice that I fell in love with as a student.
And I, I sort of found a hit with it and thought, well, this fucked up, fucked up and fucked up. Let’s talk about it. And you know, who’s causing it?
You. I don’t mean you’re a bad person. It just means like, maybe that’s some more work to do.
And I found that very pleasurable to do that. So there’s like, I like to make you uncomfortable. And that’s the, that’s the training of this form is the, the, the pleasure to be mean.
And it’s a challenging form because often we don’t want to be mean. Cause we’re like, wait, what happens if you think it’s me being mean? You won’t like me.
And I’m kind of like a person. I’m like, I want everyone to like me. I did Daughter.
And then I’m like, why don’t people like me? And then I’m like, well, that’s fine. Whatever, whatever.
It was not everybody, but enough, some people. So yeah, bouffon is that, and it’s, what do you want to talk about? So what’s pissing you off in the world?
And then what is the body that can tell that story? Or like, meaning like what kind of costume or me, you know, like I’m in this body and I know how I present when I do Daughter, I’m a straight white man standing up and taking space. And then I don’t apologize for it.
And that is even more problematic. So there’s that.
[Phil Rickaby]
And then in other bouffon forms, you put on a costume or a disguise yourself and then mock the form of bouffon that is that I’m more familiar with is the person puts on the costume and the costume is relatively grotesque and, and almost inhuman. But I can also see how something like Daughter is also that, but without the costume.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah.
So I think it just takes any form. So that’s why I say at its most base, it’s, it’s satire, you know, in South Park, they’re cartoon characters and they’re allowed to say, that’s what I mean by the body, like out of children’s mouths, somehow they can get away with saying these things. Another, like, how do you sugar the pill so that we can swallow that, that pill of truth, you know, or that hypocrisy.
Yeah. So with Daughter, it was, that is a clear bouffon line. You fall in love with this, this man who’s saying, I love my Daughter and this was her birth and it was challenging.
It was so hard. And by the way, I did this bad thing. And you’re like, okay.
And then somehow in that show, you’re in this boiling pot of water and you’re like, who turned the heat on? And why am I boiling my skin off? How do I get out?
It’s too late. So that was, I really liked the journey of that bouffon was like really interesting to explore. And I think we can get different feelings.
So when we’re that, I’m trying to think of a wild bouffon form, like red bastard is red bastard.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. That’s the one that comes to mind for me. Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
Or, or like Sacha Baron Cohen’s characters as well, where like the mask is like very clear, there’s a costume. I think there’s a bit of a distance we can have as an audience. It’s like, we know we’re watching a play and it doesn’t mean that you can be less on the hook, but there’s something else happens.
And I’ve always been curious, like what, if what forms can bouffon take. So with Daughter, I just want to strip that mask right away, completely away. And then I have one other thought about bouffon is in training of it.
It teaches people to unabashedly be nasty, even in classic text. It’s like, you can just drive a point and, and act like you like being mean. And I think often it’s a, it’s a good thing to do with actors because they, again, they want to be liked.
And they’re like, I hope you don’t think that I’m, I’m really this mean. It’s like, ah, you could be meaner.
[Phil Rickaby]
And we like, it’s just, it’s, it’s just occurred to me. It’s just occurred to me that in some ways, professional wrestling came up in conversation just a little while ago. Uh, there was how to with somebody and we were talking about, about that, but it occurs to me that like, it’s called rough house.
It’s called rough house. I was very good. Bring it up.
Yeah. Rough house. Yes.
Yes. The show that we’ve been trying to come up with is rough house. Somehow you said wrestling.
I’m like, yes. Boom. Yeah.
It’s amazing what the brain does, but the heel in rent in professional wrestling is unabashedly bad and enjoys the theme and it loves the audience’s reaction. And that’s, yeah. Could our, you could maybe stretch that and say that that is also a form of bouffon.
[Adam Lazarus]
Oh, totally. Totally. And then, yeah.
And then I just, I just adore it. It’s really fun. And, and then there’s also like these, I have these two ways of doing bouffon too.
There’s like the catharsis bouffon. We’re so like, as you said, in wrestling, we love to hate them. Then we want them to lose.
And when they lose, we’re like, yeah, that bad person lost. It’s so satisfying. Or, you know, if you want to make fun of a politician and then a bouffon comes out in this wild costume and they’re like, hi, I’m that politician.
And then we give them an ailment and they’re bleeding from every orifice. And we’re like, yay, they’re dying. I’m not saying I want people to die, but you know what I mean?
And, and, uh, but then there, what I’m also kind of interested as I get older, that there’s a place for catharsis bouffon, a celebration and, you know, we did it. And then there’s also reality bouffon where those politicians are still in power and making choices all the time and ripping up bike lanes in Toronto, for example. So that’s a really interesting thing.
And when I say like our job isn’t over, we, there’s work to do is we can celebrate what the catharsis can be very nice, but then sometimes we got to be reminded by the way, the world is still how it is. Let’s do some work. And with Versus and not going to be like, it’s your fault.
I don’t, that’s the difference. I think in this show is it really is Alexis Eastman, who’s the creative producer on the show came up with the tagline, feel alive again. And that we had, it’s like, can we let’s do that.
And maybe that’s the most radical bouffon to like declare like happiness and to declare, like, I want to be here with you and look at you in the eyes and, and celebrate despite my broken heart, my broken mind, my greying hair, the trouble that I have everywhere. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, we have all been that person who’s like, wants to do the right thing and can’t get it right. We’ve all been through that. We’ve all been a person who through our own actions has, I’m sure that we we’ve screwed things up, right.
You know, and it’s all on us. And so in a way that makes Gerald very relatable.
[Adam Lazarus]
For sure. For sure. Yeah.
Yeah. I think so too. I think, you know, the people I know, and often the people who are going to the theatre, they really are trying their best and they’re messing up all the time.
And it’s okay. Let’s just, let’s, let’s call it out and maybe celebrate it a bit. Maybe let’s make fun of it a bit too, so that we don’t take it too, too, too seriously all the time.
Life is funny. Life is not funny. Like, you know, those things are happening simultaneously.
Simontaneously. Simontaneously. That’s a lot to come.
[Phil Rickaby]
Okay. It will make sense when we see the show. Adam, how did you first discover bouffon?
How did that become an art form that you wanted to work in? Well, all right.
[Adam Lazarus]
Well, this is fun by the way. Like, oh, memory lane. So I was graduated university.
I started a theatre company. I was doing all this theatre and was like, I don’t like this. I don’t know what is happening.
I want to be sustainable. And then I saw a show in the Vancouver fringe. I like went there with the show and it was by four Lecoq graduates, including Emery Kerr in 2001, 2001 and nine 11 happened during our run.
So I remember. And anyway, I saw the show splice by four Lecoq graduates, one from Canada, one from the U S one from the UK, one from Australia. And they had four or two, four flats and a thousand and one props that would only be revealed when it was time.
And so, you know, kind of classic Lecoq space design and prop play and two lighting States of on and off with flashlights. That was it. And they recreated film shots, like classic film shots throughout history and did sort of the history of film and the name splice.
And it blew my mind. I’m like, who are you? Where did this come from?
How do you do what you do? I befriended Emery. And she said, we’re Lecoq graduates.
You should go study with Lecoq, but he’s dead. There’s this other guy named Philippe Gaulier. Why don’t you go study with him?
He’s going to be in Halifax for a three week workshop in three week workshop. That’s all I got. So I went back to Toronto where I’m from.
And I was like, I’m going to go do this class. I paid a bunch of money and drove out there and in walked Philippe Gaulier, you know, short, stout glasses and said, OK, we’re going to do clown. And I thought, oh, fuck, what have I done?
Because to me, clown was like, you know, it was going to be a mime in a box. I’m like, I didn’t want that.
[Phil Rickaby]
Did you think like like white face and I did. Oh, I’m dead.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah, I was like, oh, I’m dead. And and then I did it and it was so hard and I was so bad at it. Everything that I was doing was like, he’s like, you’re so boring.
You don’t want to be here. I give you a negative four on your voice. Oh, like, do we want to kill out?
I’m like, all the classic Gaulier things. And he was right. And then one day we were doing an exercise and he kicked me off and I went, oh, go fuck yourself.
Then he went, there you are. I’m like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And something in me was like, oh, I’m allowed to sort of be acerbic.
I’m allowed to be mean. And then I had more success in clown just being like a little bit of a pissant. And then we then in the very last days of that clown stage, he said, let’s we’re going to do and I have a problem where I push too hard in my life and then I throw my back.
I’m like, I’m going to win. Like, I’m going to win yoga. And then it’s so dumb.
And then I throw my back. And so I did. I threw my back and I was on the floor and I took some Robaxacet or something and I felt like it made me really loopy.
And he started doing Bouffon with them. And I thought it was the funniest thing I’d ever seen in my life. And he’s like, he does like middle ages Bouffon.
So like really grotesque and a little like Lecoq can be a bit more mystere and like of another planet. So the stuffing is it doesn’t look recognizable. And Gaulier’s was we’re going to make you look like you’re from the Middle Ages who’ve been dragged out of the swamp to perform a show for the gentry.
And I was like, I want to go up there. And he said, no, no, you’re sick. You have to sit.
I’m like, no, no, I get it. You put me up there. And he goes, fine, we’ll put you up there.
And he put me in a sack on a chair. Like, so I had no any, I was just like a head. And, um, and then he’s like, okay, go.
And I think the exercise was like, make us love you. Something’s super vague. And I started going, he’s like, shut up.
And then suddenly in him yelling, shut up, I, my lens pulled back and I saw how the audience looked at me and this image. And I thought, you think I’m gross. I am not gross.
And I started counting. I started singing opera. I started baking cookies with just this, this image and the room was roaring and something like kind of was unlocked in me.
And I lasted for 20 minutes in front of Philippe Gaulier, you know, and it was like, uh, I was like cracked open. They had to like pull me off the stage. Cause I could have kept going.
And, and then, so, so that’s what happened there. And I’m like, oh my gosh, what was that? And then spent the next 25 years trying to figure out what the hell happened in those 20 minutes.
And that’s been my journey. And so I study it a lot and I went back to Gaulier and I did a big bouffon intensive and then I assisted him. And then I kept making shows in the form and yeah.
So I had this sort of radical chance, transformative moment that, um, set me on a journey of research for my whole life.
[Phil Rickaby]
Did you, did you ever come to any kind of realization about what happened in those 20 minutes?
[Adam Lazarus]
Uh, yeah, I do. I, yeah, I, I saw how the audience looked at me and I had pleasure to be mean. And I knew, I knew that being nasty would be showing my beauty from this side of the table that I have no problem with me.
You have a problem with me. And that can be very unsettling for an audience that, you know, a bouffon would be able to sing the most beautiful hymn you’ve ever heard, beautiful trained voice, and then call you out on like, can I come over for dinner? No.
Okay. You know what I mean? Like we don’t want the bouffon in there.
We just sort of want to like flick a quarter at them and be like, and I feel like that oppressive thinking is, is really bad. And so I, I like to, I like to perform it and I love helping people, uh, take up space and make fun of audiences and, or, or, or celebrate, um, or, or, you know, have catharsis bouffon as well. You know, it depends on the space.
[Phil Rickaby]
When you’re working with people in bouffon, what’s the, what’s the biggest hurdle that you have to overcome with somebody who’s, who’s, who’s trying to, to learn?
[Adam Lazarus]
I don’t know if it’s a hurdle necessarily, but it’s my first thing I want to do thing, uh, is trust is building trust in the room that here I am. It’s like aging white dude, who’s going to be like, this is how you can make fun of people. And, but I’m not just teaching bouffon to aging white dudes.
So I’m, I’m like in the muck with people trying to figure that out. Cause how do you get away with saying bad things to power for lack of a better word, or, and not get killed and not get an end, trick them into reforming or making a social change. So that, that I’d say trust is the, is the biggest hurdle.
And the other one would be the audience always wins with bouffon before you were loved. So if I’m angry about a subject, like, I think, I think misogyny is bad. Let’s say, well, let’s do that one.
And I come out and I’m like, you’re all misogynist. You’re like, get off the stage. I don’t like you.
So how do I make you fall in love with something about me and my delivery so that I, I can then poke you and then apologize and say, sorry, I didn’t mean to do that. I didn’t mean to make you uncomfortable. That wasn’t the point.
The point was just like, I don’t know. I was like searching and thinking about things about misogyny, you know, like, like you, I mean, sorry, that’s rude. I shouldn’t say like you, I shouldn’t do that, but, but you are kind of one, right?
Don’t you think, Phil, you’re a little bit of one, sorry, you don’t need to anyway, like that for example.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Do you find that, that, that the Canadian instinct for politeness is something you have to break, break in people or like help them get past?
[Adam Lazarus]
You know, I, I want to say yes. Like if I was talking to like Hilda on the street, but I think people who are drawn to Bouffon are really excited to not be polite. I think Canadians are not that we have, like, you know, we’re funny, we’re funny and we’re good at satire.
So I think, yeah, I think people really like it. So that poly test comes out more in like our day to day. So I think in the studio, people are like, oh my gosh, I’m so polite.
And that barista is so fucking annoying. I’m going to make fun of that barista. Right.
[Phil Rickaby]
To go back to, to Versus you had your, your seven week workshop, you had a secret preview or invite only preview. And then you had a run at SummerWorks this past summer. Um, no, was there a run at SummerWorks?
Oh, there’s SummerWorks first. Then. Okay.
Sorry about that. Did presenting the show, uh, for an audience at SummerWorks teach you something that you didn’t yet know about the show?
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I think I said earlier that I never quite know what the shows are.
So like even making Daughter, we felt we were making a comedy. We were sure it was funny. And then we presented it.
We’re like, oh my God, it’s not. Cause all of those stories separately were very funny. But when you amass them onto one person for an hour and 20 minutes, it’s, it’s not a comedy anymore or it is until it’s not.
And for Versus we thought we were like making a very deep, like sensitive show and which I still think we are. And then we put it in front of audiences at SummerWorks. And the two things were people liked it.
So we were like, okay, let’s continue. We didn’t know if we would, if it didn’t work, we’re like, okay, put it in the bin. But we didn’t realize how funny it was.
So people were like laughing, like, like Alexis calls it sitcom laughing and it was shocking. And so that’s that. And so, you know, you kind of lean into aspects of that in the later creation phases or like pull back a little bit.
If we don’t, we want to take it out. Cause it’s, there’s some, there’s some big things that we’re also talking about. Yeah.
So learned a ton from SummerWorks for, for that. And then for the creation fund residency of seven weeks, uh, we learned about design, like a lot of design. SummerWorks, we had a very pared down thing and a couple of gestures towards design, but, um, yeah, we, we understand what we need to do and that the TD and the PM are hard at work to make it all come together.
[Phil Rickaby]
Audiences teach you some, so much about what a show actually is. And again, I guess, you know, that’s why theatre is what it is, right? Because we need the audience.
It’s not a film. It’s not, not television. We need the audience in the moment to kind of reflect what the show is.
So many times, um, I’ve done a show and there’s that moment where you think there’s going to be a laugh and cause you think, you know, and so you’re waiting, does the audience find this funny? And when they do, you’re like, we were right. And when you don’t, you’re like, we’ve been completely wrong.
And it’s not like the audience is honest. They don’t lie in their reaction. And so they teach you what the show is.
[Adam Lazarus]
For sure. For sure. And I think to be nimble with that is really important and respectful, like the audience is correct.
Although I also feel like there’s a percentage threshold for, for funny that if it’s not landing 80% of the time, it’s not funny. And I think joke, or like the rhythm needs to shift. So yeah.
And that’s sort of the work and the rigour of going into a moment and being like, it’s not it. It’s not working yet. We do that so that my gosh, there’s so many moments.
And again, the seven weeks it’s like, Oh, what is the centre of that funny or the centre of that drama? I feel like saying another thing. And if people listen, I don’t think it gives it away because it changes all the time, but a big thing that shifted from SummerWorks to the creation, the residency, excuse me.
And then now what you’ll see is I changed. I wanted the end. I had an idea for the ending where I get somebody up on stage from the audience who I don’t know.
And we have a real conversation about something very meaningful. And it’s the scariest thing for me. And when I say scary, I mean, exciting and scary because I have no idea what they’re going to say and asking them to open up and, and do a thing.
And it, and that we learned in the creation fund residency theatres at the Theatre Centre, that it works right. It’s extraordinary how people would enter that space with me and, and say things about themselves. And it’s, it’s, I think it’s gorgeous.
It’s like so satisfying that, and we, we crested that 80% threshold. It worked a hundred percent of the time. Will it work next time?
We’ll see. Let’s see. We’ll see.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s funny. You refer it to like when something doesn’t work and you change the rhythm of it, or you have to find a way, like, Oh, you’re going to toss it. You’re going to like, find out what’s not where you try a different thing.
There was a document. It’s not, it’s not the same, but it is standup comedy. But take the Tarot had a documentary documentary a number of years ago in which you see her work a joke from the B from the first time until the time it becomes funny.
And you hear that joke so many times as she’s changing the rhythm, changing the word. It’s not funny with Derek, just like perfecting it. And it’s like amazing how those slight changes can affect something and make it funny or take away the funny.
[Adam Lazarus]
That’s it. I love that. It’s, it’s work.
It’s and, and then, and then, you know, the rigour of being honest of it’s not there yet. It’s good. It’s not fucking good.
And we want it to be fucking good. You know, our standard has to be so excellent. And then like, then we get there.
We’re like, can we even get it higher? And I, I really, I, I, you know, I’m, I’m teaching right now and with these young actors, and that’s something that we’re talking about. Like, can you meet your limit?
And then imagine that’s not your limit. And then go to the next, keep striving for excellence and greatness. And what could theatre be?
And yeah, there’s, and this, like this ending of, you know, refining and making sure that we hone this, this, this aspect is this could only happen in the theatre. And it really is, it’s riveting experience out there. You’re like, everyone says it’s gotta be a plant.
Have you seen blind date, you know, Rebecca Northan’s Blind Date?
[Phil Rickaby]
I have seen, I don’t, I haven’t seen it, but I know of it, but yeah, they were a plant. It’s not a plant, you know?
[Adam Lazarus]
No. And the fact that people can be that open and, and feed the narrative of a play. It’s, it’s astounding to watch and, you know, shout out to Rebecca.
Rebecca, I’ve always wanted to do my own version of blind date. And in a way, the ending of my show is a little bit of a nod.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s funny, the, the, the, the way of like, like taking theatre, like going further and like, can you take it beyond a good to make it great? I think sometimes in the theatre, we, we, because we are pressed for time so often that we make theatre that’s good, but because we don’t have time to make it great. And it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s good to have like that seven week workshop to, you know, it was mostly designed, but like, you’re still like working things, right?
You’re still like making it work.
[Adam Lazarus]
I have a thought on that too. I feel like this is a kind of a controversial statement, but whatever. Do it, do it, do it.
That like, there’s a saying that Toronto is where theatre goes to die. And I don’t mean that we make dead theatre. I mean, often it ends there and I have ever wanted to do that.
Cause how could you possibly know your show if you’re working towards this premiere and then it’s, it’s over. So, you know, maybe that’s why like my shows aren’t in don’t play. Anyway, I shouldn’t say that.
[Phil Rickaby]
I’m like, no, no, no. Because I think, I think the thing that you are describing, I mean, I’ve, I’ve said it on this show and I’ve had conversations about it many times about how, you know, our theatres are looking for a premiere and they want to be the first one to do it. And for the most part, after that first time that a play is done, there’s no path to a second production.
There’s no path to a future for the show.
[Adam Lazarus]
So like I’m entering always with the desire to move it. So in conversation with everyone, or even, you know, you said you saw that thing at the Festival of Clowns. I’m like, why wouldn’t I use that as a, as an opportunity?
Or there’s this like new piece that I’m, I’m trying to work on. And, um, I saw somebody who’s doing like a night of horror plays. I’m like, I’m in.
And so I think we’re like, it’s gotta be at Tarragon. It’s gotta be at factory. It’s gotta be at CanStage.
And then what? So this is like looking at our art as a little bit more holistic where it can move and we can showcase, and we are in a really big country. And, but as we’re making this too, our design is always thinking about touring.
How can we make sure that we can go, we can move it.
[Phil Rickaby]
I think you, I think you have to, because otherwise what other kind of future will the show have?
[Adam Lazarus]
For sure. And that would be very, well, it’s over. It’s been pretty good.
We’ve had, we’ve had a couple of years with it, but the actual finished product, I’d like to continue moving it.
[Phil Rickaby]
I’m, I’m, I’m more referring to like the traditional, like the show gets done at Tarragon. And then that’s the last time anybody ever sees it or hears about it or something like that.
[Adam Lazarus]
You know, it’s like, no, no, no. It’s such a good play. Move it, move it.
And, you know, with also, you don’t know your play until you’ve done it a hundred times. Oh my God. That is, that is a fact.
Yeah. Yeah. I remember being in Edinburgh.
It was the opening night and I did this thing and I was like, I lost the audience in that. It was a preview and I, they, they didn’t like it. And then from that moment on, I changed something at the beginning.
It was a move. I was too, way too aggressive how I entered the space and, you know, a hundred to ten. So, and that was after touring it around Canada and then a few other places and then landing in Edinburgh.
Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
No, I, it’s only after like, you’re right. Like about a hundred performances. That’s when you like, know the show and like the guts of it, you know you’re sort of working your way as you perform it from the outside of the, of the show.
So you know the bones of it, the veins of the show. Cause at that point you, you’re almost able to deconstruct it on the spot. Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
That’s it. Yeah. You’re so alive and what it could be.
And those reactions, you don’t like it or like a more silent audience or speed or, and so on. Yeah. Yeah.
I was going to say, I also am very aware that I have the luxury or I’ve maybe built a career where I can do those things. So I’m the actor who will go and continue in the play to other venues, whereas, you know, other places, maybe the play does move, but the actors shift. So there’s a whole different learning of, of the text.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. It is something to say, to be said about like being the solo performer in a show and, and, and performing it over and over and, and being able to learn it that way. But again, if you did have the opportunity to do a hundred performances of a show in a, in an ensemble, you would know that show so well.
It’s just that in, in Canada, we don’t get to do that very often. Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
It’s also nice to like move and meet new people and talk with different folks who have different perspectives. And that’s, that’s why I like touring as well. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. So as you’re about to start this, you know, this, this will air, this will come out just before opens. And so as the show is, you know, you’ve done all of this work and you’re about to do this, this, this, this run at, at the Theatre Centre.
What are you most hoping for an audience to experience with this show?
[Adam Lazarus]
What are you most hoping? Like that people come.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, that, that goes without saying we’re in the theatre. We’re great at people.
[Adam Lazarus]
Exactly. Feel alive again. I want them to have, I want them to have a really good time and, you know, we throw a party.
So we feed you cake and there’s a live band at the end and you are at a full blown party and I want people to, to feel good at the end. And this was worth it. And look at each other in the eye and maybe feel a little bit like their heart grew three sizes.
Like, you know, amazing. There’s another, can I say another thing? I don’t know.
Of course. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. Like that was maybe a good place to end, but I also feel like, no, no, go, you know, whoever’s listening, maybe like younger people or to be like a creative thinker with how we approach work. And I have two anecdotes.
The first is when I was a kid starting out, when I say a kid, I mean, early twenties starting a theatre company, we would go to malls and we would get there the coins from, we asked for them, the coins from fountains, like the pennies and quarters and loonies that people would whip in. And that’s how we pay for our shows. Like we’ve got thousands and thousands of dollars by going around the city and asking for coins.
And there was a fair, like talk about ingenuity, right? Unfortunately we don’t have those anymore in malls. So good luck.
But finding like how there’s other ways Versus like the one route. And I feel my career has not been this like classic strategy of, of, of theatre creators. And it’s, it’s served me nicely, I guess.
And still, anyway, and then, so that was that. And then also my show, this dream is to have it on bigger stages, but I know our resources and we didn’t want to blow our budget on getting a massive space. We wanted a theatre that gives us freedom.
And that’s The Theatre Centre and the support of Ashlyn Rose and everybody there. And so what we’ve done is we’ve shrunk the audience to, I think it’s a 200 seat theatre, and now it’s a hundred seats because the magic and the illusion of what you see on stage wouldn’t work unless we shrunk the audience. So we’re paring it down.
So, you know, producers and presenters, and when they come to see it, they, they know the bigger scale offer of it. Rather than like, we got to sell out, we got to sack art. We didn’t, we never sacrificed the art.
So again, it’s sort of like, why am I saying this? Just creative ways of making stuff happen. And also to have people around you who believe in you and also get excited with these other angles in like Alexis Eastman is just the most amazing creative thinker.
And when we try and think about how we can make the art happen, like that’s a business thing. It’s also wildly creative. And so, you know, there’s not one path.
[Phil Rickaby]
When you’re talking, because you’re teaching, you’re in Montreal, you’re teaching and you’re dealing with people who are in school to learn the craft. Is that something that you are imparting to the students when you’re talking to them?
[Adam Lazarus]
I’m here teaching a specific form of performance. So I’m doing Jeu. When I say perform, I’m like the base, the basic heartbeat of all performance, I would say.
So I think they know my story, but I’m not like, that’s what you should do. But I think there’s always people who are inspired by that. And then other people who are, who are bound for Stratford, and they should be, and we need that institution to survive.
And we need, we need all of, all of the theatre institutions to survive. But then there’s often, we, we, you meet artists for sure who are like, I don’t think that’s my path, but I love this. How else can I do it?
And I’m just one story of a different, a different route to continue and have sustainability in this form. And that’s all I’ve ever wanted. I just like, I just want to make another show.
Please come see my show so that I can make another show and die a theatre artist, you know?
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. I do think that, that sometimes we get caught up in what is the right way to do things. You know, if you’re going to be a producer, you got to get the grant.
That’s the only way you’re going to get the money is you can get the grant. And that’s, and, and, and maybe there are other ways that, because we can get too, too stuck in one way of doing things. Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
I think you’re, that’s bang on for sure. And there’s gotta be infinite possibilities. You I see people spending money all the time.
How much was that croissant? What? Give that money to me.
So I’m not saying everybody has money, but I’m like, there’s a lot of people who are spending money on like that. That costs a lot of cash. Your phone was a lot of money.
[Phil Rickaby]
You’re that. There’s even, even, even if it’s not just like the, the croissant or the, you know, the giant croissant bigger than my head or whatever it is that people are buying, there are all kinds of experiences and things that people are spending lots of money on. They’re buying tickets to Beyoncé or, or Taylor Swift or, or, or, you know, some kind of, there are all kinds of events around the city where it’s like, you’re going to pay $50 here, $50 there for a ticket.
That’s cause you take, you know, it’s like a hundred dollars just to go to see a show with another person. So it’s like, people are willing to spend the money. We just have to give them something.
They an experience they can’t have somewhere.
[Adam Lazarus]
That’s it. And I think we’re doing that with Versus I like, I really, really think so that it’s super exciting and a fun night out. Uh, and you know, and it’s not just the people who are the artists working who are like, sometimes theatre is like built on the backs of like the ticket sales are the backs of the theatre artists who don’t have as much money.
Everyone’s people are spending money. I mean, the people who are outside of that, you know, $17 croissant.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
[Adam Lazarus]
Like they are looking for a good night out. I think that’s where people are a little bored of watching television alone at home all the time. So there has been like an update, a tick in movie attendance.
There’s been a film, there’s been an uptick in theatre attendance sometimes. And so not to sacrifice the art ever, we never sacrifice the art. But when I said, uh, in some works, it’s like, oh my gosh, we have sort of a sitcom.
I think we’re onto something here where a lot of people can come and experience the show. And we’re going to talk about stuff too. We’re not going to like dumb it down and just be, I don’t know, full house.
And I’m sorry if you like full house, not saying I don’t like it. I don’t like full house or fuller house.
[Phil Rickaby]
No show, no show is for everybody. But also, I do think that like, you know, people, those of us who are in the theatre, we know what makes theatre great, right? We know that like those moments when like the whole place is just like leaning forward in their seat and breathing together.
That’s like a magic thing because we’ve experienced it. But there are people who aren’t going to the theatre because they don’t know that it’s not just like sitting in a movie theatre. They don’t know that it’s that, that, that, that this magic thing is going to happen.
And somehow we have to communicate that so that they, they will come to the show and have it and then be like, I need more of this. Cause it’s an addictive thing to be in an audience. Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
Or, or they went to like one show and it sucked and they’re like, theatre sucks.
[Phil Rickaby]
That’s why is it? Why is it that theatre is the art form where somebody goes, I wanted to see a play once. I didn’t like it.
I don’t like theatre, but don’t watch like countless, but I watched them all shit movies and shit TV shows and listen to crappy albums on their, on their, on Spotify or whatever. But theatre is the one where they were like, so I won’t play. It sucked.
Theatre sucks. Totally.
[Adam Lazarus]
So I think, I don’t know, like I got my haircut. I’m like, you go see theatre and they’re like, no, not really. Or I saw the Lion King or whatever.
And I’m like, great. Do you want tickets to my show? And I’m like, I want them to come.
Or I talked to somebody at the grocery store and I’m like, do you see theatre? And so really talking to like everybody and then, and maybe I’m just going to be, I’m not going to be giving away a lot of tickets, but like, I feel like I might have to buy tickets and then give it to folks to remind them of a good night out. And then we also talk about it as a comedy because people send, I think marketing, you know, if I’m like, I’m doing clown show, there’s very few places where that’s an exciting phrase to hear.
[Phil Rickaby]
Well, you know, it’s funny because, uh, I, you know, I mentioned, you know, doing a couple of shows at the Toronto Festival of Clowns. We did two Keystone Theatre shows at the Toronto Festival of Clowns many years ago and talking to people who were not in the theatre and being like, yeah, I’m doing this show at the Toronto Festival of Clowns. And the number of people who were like, staying far away from that, man.
[Adam Lazarus]
I know. And all I did was try and program shows that like, like yours and there was like dance pieces and bouffon and character pieces. Maybe I think one, one year there was like one red nose and the whole thing besides the cabarets and still it was part of sort of why I backed away from it every year.
So what is clown? Is it a birthday party experience? Like every time that we were interviewed for press, it was always that lead.
I’m like, oh man, all we’ve been doing is fighting for. So like, I love now they’re calling it the, uh, what the festival, like WTF, what the surgeons. And I’m like, that’s clever marketing.
[Phil Rickaby]
See, that is clever marketing because it takes the clown out of it so that people don’t have that. I saw it and that fucked me up, you know?
[Adam Lazarus]
Totally, totally. Where, and then even if you say physical theatre, it’s like, oh, that’s pretty academic. But if you say we get it, or if you’re like a wild night at the theatre, like people kind of in Edinburgh, you say clown show in there, I think in certain festivals, they’re like, I want to see a clown show because that vernacular is understood.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yes. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the European has the, has the like, oh, clown is clown is this. And in North America, it’s like clown is a circus guy.
Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
It’s like, oh, Mary, I could say, oh, Mary’s a bouffon play. 100%. Oh, Mary is bouffon.
I don’t want to go see a booth. Boo. What?
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. The hair trial. Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
It’s that, that it’s a real, it’s a real uphill battle with that. Yeah. So think about the marketing often of how do I want to talk about this show?
So people actually want to come see it and you trick them in and then you’re like, all right, it was a clown show.
[Phil Rickaby]
Well, we have to think about that, right? We have to think about, I think a lot of times, especially people who are starting out when they’re starting with a show, especially like in the fringe and things like that, they’re thinking about how to market it at the very end. Yeah.
Right. Right. And that’s way too late.
Yeah. Well, you need to be thinking about that way early because we need to be thinking about that all the time. Like, how do you bring people in to see this show?
And it has, it can’t just be like, cause it’s good.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah. Although that’s a really good reason. That’s good word.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, it’s a really good reason, but most people, like if you say, you know, so why should I come and see your show? It’s good. But most people would be like, so why?
What’s good about it? You need to be able to convince somebody. What’s the hook?
What’s the thing?
[Adam Lazarus]
You get cake and there’s a live band. Well, there you go. Boom.
Free food and music.
[Phil Rickaby]
Free cake and a band.
[Adam Lazarus]
And so I think we got to align ourselves. We can’t do this stuff alone. And there are people out there who are really good at their jobs.
Alexis Eastman is really good at her job. And so that also takes the pressure off of me so that I can focus on the art. I do.
I am a producer as well of my own work, but you know it’s good to have somebody else to think about that stuff for sure. Yeah. A hundred percent.
And I think often when we forget, I don’t know, maybe when I was younger, I wanted to do it alone. And I remember that’s how I found Guillermo too. I was like, I don’t think I’m a good enough writer right now.
I want some help. Guillermo, do you want to look at this piece that I’m writing? And then he’s like, yeah, I like it.
And then let’s do it together. So knowing your blind spots is important in life. And then people help, you know, like therapy, like there are people who help you.
And so you go to therapy. You don’t, you don’t try and do it on your own or on the phone.
[Phil Rickaby]
You know, years ago I was talking to Jackie Thomas from Theatre Gargantua and she said, I’m going to tell you this secret that somebody told me many years ago. And I tell everybody because it is because people feel like it’s secret, but it’s true. People want to help.
You just want to, you just got to ask. You have to say the words and most times people say yes.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah. I believe in that a lot. And if they say no, it’s okay.
Like, but it, yeah, there’s a lot of courage in asking that or, and a lot of vulnerability because you open yourself up to a no.
[Phil Rickaby]
And there’s lots of reasons why they’re saying no. They may not be saying no. Cause you know, they may be saying no, they’re busy or no, that there’s usually a reason for it.
It’s not because they’re being a dick.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, for sure. For sure.
[Adam Lazarus]
But often we don’t, we’re like, I can do it all. Or, you know, and you can, and so can someone else too. So lighten, lighten the load, take a load off it.
Yeah. Take a load. Absolutely.
Take a load for free. Uh, and then I also say like, don’t take advantage of people and just ask people for help all the time and not give back. What are you giving as well?
Yeah. Yeah. Um, there was that, was it Amanda plumber who talks about like giving the flower as the statue and doing, um, uh, street performance and then the Amanda Palmer.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[Adam Lazarus]
And then the act of like giving the rose to someone and then it made them so happy to feel, am I getting this right? They gave a buck.
[Phil Rickaby]
Oh, this is when she was doing, when she was doing like her, her street, her, her like statue thing.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah. And then exchange with another person. Like I see you and we are doing this together.
Thank you. And that exchange is, is very powerful. And then she pulls it into, I ask for help.
It’s okay. And people feel like they’re connecting with you. So yeah, like pull the wipes to make, um, Versus happen and every show ever, every year.
It’s, this is the wonderful thing about theatres that we’re in community.
[Phil Rickaby]
Like even this conversation, like we get to chat and I’m absolutely, I think sometimes we forget that because you know, if you’re, if you’re writing, especially as a, as a writer, you know, can be very sore, uh, solitary and, but the, the theatre doesn’t happen without a community, without an audience, without all the people who work on it. And so we need to, we need to always make those connections and keep those connections. Do you have another Keystone show coming up?
I mean the, the, the, we, every so often somebody says we’d love to get the band back together, but so many people have gone on to other things. David, who was our piano player, he’s been, I mean, he was the music director for Hamilton when it was in Toronto. He’s like music directing things for Mirvish and at the Stratford and things like that.
Dana Fradkin is directing opera and things like that. Richard Beaune is the artistic director of Calgary Shakespeare. It is getting harder and harder for us to possibly bring the band back together.
And it’s, it’s, it’s tragic because every so often we’re like, could we? And then it just sort of like falls apart, but it would be great to be able to do it.
[Adam Lazarus]
So can this be like, we’ve pushed it into the universe even more and then just, just, Oh sure.
[Phil Rickaby]
Maybe we’ve pushed that out of the universe. Maybe, maybe the, maybe the magic will happen. The universe will bring it and the band will get back together and we’ll be able to do a show again because it was kind of magical.
[Adam Lazarus]
Yeah, for sure. May this be the beginning of the, your national chief.
[Phil Rickaby]
Maybe. Well, Adam Lazarus is thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it.
I’m so looking forward to, I was looking forward to Versus before, but now I’m really looking forward to Versus. So thank you so much.
[Adam Lazarus]
This is awesome. You’re awesome. Thank you.
[Phil Rickaby]
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Stageworthy. If you’re listening on Apple podcasts or Spotify, please consider leaving a rating and a review your ratings and reviews help new people to find this show. It raises it up in the ratings and makes it more visible to new people.
So I would be so grateful if you could do that. Speaking of gratitude, I do have a Patreon and I am so grateful to the people who’ve chosen to back me on Patreon. If you want to be one of those people who helps me make the show go to patreon.com slash Stageworthy and become a patron. My guest next week is Sebastian Biasucci, the director of Resident Vermin, which runs at the Red Sandcastle Theatre from November 12th to 22nd produced by Riot King, one of Toronto’s great independent theatre companies. So tune in next week for that on Stageworthy.
