Alexis Eastman on Devised Theatre, Novel Writing, Creative Producing and Artistic Identity

About This Episode:

Creative producer Alexis Eastman joins Stageworthy host Phil Rickaby to explore what it really means to be a creative producer in Canadian theatre. From her early days making work at the Toronto Fringe to her current role supporting artists through long-term development processes, Alexis shares insights into how she bridges the administrative and creative aspects of theatre-making. She discusses her collaborations with artists like Adam Lazarus on shows including Daughter and the upcoming Versus, and how her approach to producing integrates her into the creative process as a true collaborator. Alexis also opens up about how becoming a mother profoundly changed her perspective on producing, the importance of failure in the creative process, and her journey from devised theatre to discovering she’s actually a novelist. She reflects on growing up in an evangelical church and how that shaped her artistic practice, the necessity of boredom for creativity, and why long-term relationships between artists and producers lead to deeper, more rigorous work.

This episode explores:

• What a creative producer actually does and how it differs from traditional producing
• The importance of long-term artist support and development in theatre
• How motherhood transformed Alexis’s approach to producing and collaboration
• Working with Adam Lazarus on Daughter and the new show Versus
• Why failure and time are essential ingredients in the creative process
• And much more!

Guest: 🎭 Alexis Eastman

Alexis Eastman is a writer and creative producer based in Toronto. A graduate of York University’s Creative Ensemble program, she learned her producing craft at the Theatre Centre under Ashlyn Rose, where she served as producer from 2018. Alexis works as a creative collaborator integrated into the artistic process from idea through development to premiere and beyond. She has collaborated extensively with artists including Adam Lazarus on Daughter and the upcoming show Versus. Beyond producing, Alexis is also a novelist, having discovered that novel writing is her true creative practice. She brings her experience as a mother and her background growing up in an evangelical church to inform her thoughtful, emotionally intelligent approach to supporting artists.

Connect with Alexis Eastman:

📸 Instagram: @alexis_leanna

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Transcript

[Phil Rickaby]
Hello, welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host and producer of this podcast. Stageworthy is Canada’s theatre podcast, and on this podcast, I talk to people who make theatre in Canada.

From actors to playwrights to directors to stage managers, producers, if they’re making theatre in Canada, I’m talking to them. Some of the people I talk to are household names, and the rest are people I think you should really get to know. Make sure that you stay tuned to the end of the episode because I’m going to talk about next week’s guest.

But for today, my guest this week is Alexis Eastman. Alexis is a writer and creative producer based in Toronto. And I had a fascinating time talking to Alexis, learning about what a creative producer is and does.

And I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. Here’s my conversation with Alexis Eastman. Alexis Eastman, thank you so much for joining me.

I really appreciate it. You are a creative producer. Why don’t we just start with like, what is a creative producer?

How do you define that?

[Alexis Eastman]
You know, I knew you were going to ask me this question. And it’s something that I’ve been in the process of defining. I come from the Aislinn Rose School of Creative Producers.

There are several ways for folks that kind of think have come to that title. And I learned it from her at the Theatre Centre, where it’s really about being part of the process as a collaborator in a producing way, which I think the image for me that is the clearest is like, coming up with a stepping stone that we’re going to land on during the process, throughout idea, through development into premiere, and then hopefully, whatever the goals are after premiere, whether that’s touring or rewriting or putting it back on a shelf, you know, supporting the whole life of a project.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Now, how does the creative producer role, as you’ve described it, work with and integrate with, say, a director, for example?

[Alexis Eastman]
You know, I think that’s really, it’s totally dependent on the director and the producer. And I think that’s what’s really, I think that’s what’s unique about what calling someone a creative producer is like naming them as the idiosyncratic collaborator at the table. And I think a lot of times, like that the producing role, maybe because it’s about admin or cash, or, you know, it’s like, it’s the person doing the contracts, it feels like there is like a singular or neutral or prescribed way to produce.

And in reality, even line producers, everybody can do this very, very differently. For me, creative producing, it starts with a relationship with somebody in the project. And that’s usually the core creator.

But sometimes that’s the director, sometimes the core creator ends up being the director, sometimes that person ends up being the performer. In the case of my big project right now with Adam Lazarus, we go back many years, like a long, long time ago, he was the mentor on a paprika show that I was in. So we go like, back to 18.

But in we, we struck up a collaboration between him and I as collaborators. So it’s been that in working with the directors, I’m creating and facilitating what they need to do their work. And for some folks, that is about staying out of the way, because a lot of people don’t have producing integrated into their creative practice, because that hasn’t been available to them or a part of the practice of the producers they’ve been working with.

And some directors are really into it. It’s like, always changing.

[Phil Rickaby]
In a lot of cases, you know, if you’re if you come from indie theatre or something like that, you’re especially if you’re like fringe producing or things like that, you’re you tend to be very fly, but you don’t have a lot of experience dealing with a producer, it can be very difficult to figure out what that role is. Once you move from, you know, the super indie fringe thing into like, full production. And how did you find your way into the creative producing role?

[Alexis Eastman]
I graduated creative ensemble from York University. So that was the program before it was devised theatre. And I graduated in 2012.

And I was like, Okay, if I don’t make a show this summer, I’m gonna die. You know, like, I really I just had this feeling that I had to keep swimming had to keep moving like a fish gills, the image. And so I just threw myself into to a process.

And I at that point had been learning mostly with Allison McMacken with our teacher for those past two years, our boss, who like just took us through just an incredibly rigorous learning around how to be rigorous with your own impulses and process. So I came out of school and I and I found some friends and I was like, Okay, guys, we’re making a show. And it was the first year that fringe was doing site specific spots.

And so I was like, Great, this is like a way that I can, I can get a spot that isn’t the lottery. And so I and I was reading a book at the time, by a doctor called the three Christ of Ypsilanti. And he was doing an experiment about what would happen if you took three mental patients who all believed that they were Jesus Christ, and you had them meet every day all the time, what happens to their, their psyches.

So I was like, Okay, great, I want to make a play about this. And I’m going to do it in a church. So I pitched it to fringe.

And they were like, Okay, great. So I made this show called Christ, Christ, Christ in 2012. And I, you know, had to produce that, because somebody had to.

And, like you said, I was a kid in theatre school. And my relationship to a producer was nil. We had, I talked to I met Pat Bradley, one time I had a loose sense of grant, but all I understood really was the mechanisms of making the show.

And so I just kept running into all of these things that fringe needed from me. I just kept getting these emails, and they were like, give us a press release, tell us how many tickets there are, like, I was like, Oh, my God, you guys need so much. And I really was figuring out like what all of these requirements were just because I was like, Oh, get out of the way, I need to get back into the studio and figure out what I’m doing.

And that really is how I came to producing was I was like, this byproduct of how I wanted to get my work done. I made another project. And then I really was like, Okay, I’ve got to get out of retail.

And so I started work, I went to the Humber arts admin program, shout out to Anne Frost, a queen amongst all humans, who saw me and she’s like, Oh, okay, yeah, you you’re you can do something, but I really needed some translation. So I did that program. And then I was working with paprika.

And I was working with the Canadian Opera Company. And then I was at the theatre center doing arts admin with a very cool project they had for a year called the condo project, just like an experiment with local condominium people who lived in the area, you know, if you could picture the theatre center, it’s surrounded by condos. So it was like, what can we mean to all of these people who are literal neighbors.

And just being in that office was so exciting for me. Because I was trying at the time to focus on just creating my own work, making my own process, not having to adhere to grants or like, you know, structure, like I just was like, I just want to keep working on stuff like I did in school. And when I found the theatre center, and the residency program, and and how they support artists on the long term process, on cultivating a practice beyond just one show, we just aligned so quickly that I, I just was like, I quickly started taking on tasks with Aislinn.

And then when she became the artistic director, she brought me on as producer. And then that was really when, you know, it was formalized in 2018.

[Phil Rickaby]
The idea of working with an artist long term, I think it’s something that doesn’t come up enough in our theatre world. It’s a lot of times, it’s all short contracts. It’s all like you do this show, and then you’re done, you get hired, engaged to write a play, and then you’re done.

You’d like the long term relationships and long term creation doesn’t really happen that often. In terms of your experience, both, you know, being supported by and supporting as a creative producer, what’s the importance of the of long term creation, long term support?

[Alexis Eastman]
Two things come to mind immediately. In theatre school, I remember Peter McKinnon, who is like quite a figure of York University shout out to the York Mafia. He said this thing in one of our classes about a project, and he’s like, Oh, you know, everybody’s got a black and white idea.

Meaning like a an idea where your stage design was, oh, half the stage is black, half the stage is white, or like, you know, somebody’s all in white, but their hair is black. He’s like, everybody has that black and white idea. And it was just like, so obvious to him.

And so that really, and then Shirley Jackson has this quote about how every author’s first book is about their parents. And then after that, they write a novel. And so I think like, really, it’s like any long term relationship, like the first arc is a great thing.

Falling in love is a beautiful story. The story about your parents is worth telling. All of these, like the beginning is great.

But there is so much left to discover. And there’s depth and rigor that is only truly available with the added element of time.

[Phil Rickaby]
When you were first being supported for the long term creation, what kind of things surprised you about that process?

[Alexis Eastman]
I think that the kind of like consistency of the shape of it for most artists who I collaborate with. I think like, I really there is like, and then after I was pregnant and gave birth, like, it really became very clear to me, there’s like a gestational process that all artists go through. And there is like, there are these like hallmark moments and conversations and like, the ritual dark nights of the soul, however that manifests for that person, there’s actually like, I see like quite a pattern, and like a real consistent shape of the process of creativity in the process of being an artist.

So I find that very comforting. That makes me feel like, you know, like, I don’t know, my mind always had this lost calling of being a nun. There’s like a priest feeling there, you know, of just seeing these hallmarks in the passage of time.

And the other thing that I think is all artists know, and none of us know how to say is like, you have to be able to do nothing for a while, you have to rot, you have to have fallow years, or things that feel unproductive. They’re actually not right. That’s when you’re living your life.

That’s when you’re clearing your RAM. That’s when you’re experiencing things, gaining lenses, reading bad books, like that’s, that’s giving you grist for the mill. That’s what my dad would say, you know?

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, it’s so weird how, how we sometimes like, punish ourselves for not like actively being creative, like, you’ll feel bad, like, I’ll finish a day, you know, the day job, and then in the evening, the day job was this, so I don’t really feel like I can do much. I don’t. And then I, like, at the end, right before bed, I’m like, I didn’t do anything.

I didn’t do anything productive. And it’s like, yeah, sometimes you need the recharge.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah, you really, you really do. And for me, you know, like, I, there’s an image of a video game health bar. And we all know this, right?

You have your main character health, or maybe you don’t, you’ve got this nice main character health, then you’ve got a shield on top of that, then maybe you’ve got a special power today, like multiple things that are in play. And I think that for artists, you need to keep your pilot light on and you need your embers lit of that fire of your creativity. And that’s like, a constant tending that artists need to do and you will feel unproductive if you go through a whole day and you don’t take a moment, I think to like, stoke those flames, watered up plant, you know, whatever the images that strikes for your creative like process.

But it really is like, it’s an active thing to tend to your capability then to be able to pull on your creative self.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, everybody needs a break. Sometimes everybody needs like a day because you know, if you have the day job or you have the thing, you can’t quite get to the creativity, but you do have to like, do it relatively regularly.

I remember I went several years of not writing, for example, and I like, and that was just because the day job, you know, was like one of those soul killing day jobs and go home and it was like an hour on the subway each way and you know, you get home and you’re just like, I can’t bring myself to do anything. And then one day you realize that you haven’t done the work in three years. You can almost feel yourself like, I don’t know, do I know how to do this anymore?

How can I force myself into a spot where I can do this? It can be like, really, I think sometimes that’s where people just give up. Sometimes, right?

[Alexis Eastman]
I think so. Cause also your identity is really caught up in that. So you’re like, well, then who am I if I’m not, if I’m not writing, but I think my, you know, to my point of tending, tending the plant is like, sometimes have you seen that series of tweets?

That’s like binging this TV show is writing today or like going for a walk in the park is writing today. And I think that there is like a, an internal rigor with yourself to say like, okay, I have to acknowledge that I’m in a soul sucking life sustaining job right now. So I have to keep the fucking light on because you have to love yourself and acknowledge that those circumstances aren’t real.

You can’t pretend that that’s not happening and just expect yourself to be good. Regardless. I think it’s like meeting yourself where you actually are at.

So sometimes that means that not writing is the best you can do. And like you talk about forcing yourself to the page, you know, I’m really like, actually, what do you need so that it doesn’t feel like forcing? What do you need so that you’re excited to get to the page?

[Phil Rickaby]
These days, we, we, we have so many things to distract us. We have the phone, we have the, we have various screens, we have video games, we have, we have podcasts, we have so many things. And one of the things that we are really missing is boredom because creativity sometimes needs boredom in order to, to, to be the, if we’re going with metaphors, to be the soil in which we plant our creativity.

[Alexis Eastman]
Boredom is the soil. Oh my God. That’s I’m, I’m taking that from now on.

That’s a really good, that’s a really good.

[Phil Rickaby]
But we need it, right? We need to have like those moments of like, I don’t know what I’m doing. And sometimes, you know, you gotta put your phone on, on airplane mode and put it across the room and like hide it.

So it’s not a distraction and just do the thing.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah, truly. Which is to also meet, kind of like meet yourself, you, and you know, to take it back to Allison McMack and Godlover, you’ve got to be able to connect to your impulses to be able to write, to know, like, to move the pen in a direction, to take yourself into the studio. And, and, and I also think like there’s fear, fear builds up when you are far away from something.

And I sometimes use that word. And I was chatting with someone at a panel and she was like, very big word, fear. And I was like, I mean, isn’t that what it is?

We get afraid.

[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, it is a big word, but like, it’s one of the biggest words, but we all have it. Yeah. And we all, we have to talk about it.

We can’t pretend it’s not there. Cause that’s just denial, right?

[Alexis Eastman]
Yes. I, I read an interview many, many years ago with Hannah Moskovich in Toronto life. And it said something like, you know, like, what do you need to write?

And she said, cattle one. And I was like, yeah, absolutely. And so I, I, I had this like summer where I was like, okay, I’ll have like to- two fingers of ice cold meat vodka.

And then I’ll sit down to the page and, and it really like, it helps me kind of get over that fear bridge that can happen. And I think like I’ve, I’ve had this lifelong practice of engaging with that fear as the creative person myself. And that’s like really what being a creative producer, like truly when it comes down to for me and in my version of it is like a lot of emotional support through the process of gestating an idea through the fear of all those different phases through the moment where you’re like, where you, everybody, there’s always a moment where you like, I get the call and I’m like, Oh, this is when they want to fucking quit. Like, and like fair, like it’s, and it’s like good to entertain that every once in a while.

[Phil Rickaby]
I remember years ago, like working with my good friend, Richard Beaune on a project. And we’ve gone to theatre school together, working on a project and we’ve worked on a bunch of projects. And then one day we were all like, I think this sucks.

I think this is terrible. And then he said, you know, we said that with the last project too, and it turned out pretty good.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah.

[Phil Rickaby]
And it’s like, it’s like every project, it doesn’t matter where you are. And almost every project hits a moment where everybody questions it. Is this bad?

Does this, is this, or if it’s a comedy, is this even funny anymore? And you just have to keep pushing through because once you get past that, you actually love it more. But like you said, there’s that moment where you’re like, this might suck.

And I think maybe we should toss it.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah. And I think kind of threatening it is what makes you recognize its value. You know, you’re like, yeah, I, I hate the show.

I want to quit. You get in the Uber and then you’re like, oh, but there is that, there’s that like really funny part. And like, that does really hit and like, Oh, maybe actually I could think about this in a different way.

Like we’re, we’re so afraid of failure that we won’t even pose the question of what if like a piece of something doesn’t work and we, and then we lose the chance of becoming, you know, really excellent.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Cause it’s those, it’s those moments where you question it, where you’re like, really just sort of like pulling off what doesn’t work.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yes. Yes, exactly. It’s like, it’s a shedding and shedding is excruciating.

If you, you know, like if you injure yourself and, and your birds, you know, you got to get rid of the old stuff. That’s brutal. We’ve, we’ve seen the pit.

Like we know that this hurts, but it’s necessary for healing and to find the new spin, you know, I guess really I’m just like a metaphor weaver at this point. That’s all I do.

[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, metaphors is so important because they put the image in your brain in a way that, that it sticks. Right. Yeah.

That’s why, that’s why we use metaphors to like fill in the blanks.

[Alexis Eastman]
And I, and I, I was just going to say, I’m like, I think it really helps me. I built quite a practice on it. Cause I think it’s also creative producing is a lot of like, I try and do a lot translating for artists.

I think a lot of artists have like some level of institutional trauma, which they should rightfully. So it’s hard to feel taken care of by a large arts institution all the time. And to not feel like they’re worried about their larger season instead of you in your practice.

And also it’s hard to be a creator and also be worried about the budget or like these like administrative needs. And so like finding ways to kind of buffer the blow of that admin, turn it into images that we can chat through, you know, be the translator between them and an institution. I really like to kind of protect, create, create a bubble around that as much as possible.

I guess metaphors are, I’m realizing this in the moment. I’m like, I guess metaphors are really a tool I use for that.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, for sure. It’s funny because you were talking about like if you’re the creator, but also the producer, like how do you, like what do you, what you, what you have to do? I know for myself, when I’ve self-produced for various fringes, I figure out what I’m not going to have time for during the run.

And I try to front load it. Okay. We need a poster early.

We need a budget early. We need to know this, this, this early. So that once it’s done, once that’s, once that’s out of the way, I don’t have to worry about that anymore.

And I could concentrate on this show, but that’s something you’ll, I think you only learn by like doing like that moment where you were like in the fringe and they’re like, we need this, we need this. And you’re just like, I just want to work on the show, but they’re teaching you all of the things that you need to have as a producer.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yes. They’re, and that’s when I say to young people, I talk to all the time, I’m like, just make your own project one time. And then, then you’re a producer, then you’ve done it.

I think front loading it is honestly, like it’s the way to go. And when I’m my best producer, I’m making the poster early too. But I think like a creative producer is there for the inevitable moment in the late rehearsal where you’re like, we hate this whole set.

We have to flip it upside down and we need a new light. And we have 300 bucks. And that’s when you have somebody who’s been in the creative conversations with you the whole time.

And it was like, actually, I thought we were maybe going to do this. I’ve squirreled away 730 bucks here, you know, or, okay, I see what you want to do. Let’s strategize so that you’re able to also make a decision that serves the art when you question it.

And that’s another reason why we’re afraid to ask those questions is like, well, has this decision already been made to the point where we can’t go back? Is there even a point to ask it? You know, we kind of retain this.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s really good to have somebody who can answer that question because otherwise, like the director, the actors, and some of the people in the room will just kind of be stranded, like stuck. Like, how do I answer this question?

[Alexis Eastman]
You have no, I call it like a hinge. Like, you just need something to start making a decision based off of. And it’s so easy for a producer to just be like, oh, that costs $3,000.

Or like, that’ll take two days. Or just we have capacity for X. And I also think like, limitations are a pathway to genius.

So it’s like, once you get a couple of those parameters clear, creatives can go back to work. They can do what they do. They can solve problems.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Now, you mentioned that you worked with Adam Lazarus a couple of times. You worked with him on Paprika.

You worked with him on his show Daughter. And you’re working with him on Versus. I know, I remember, I think the first time that I became aware of Daughter was many years ago.

I was working with Keystone Theatre and we were presenting something at the Toronto Festival of Clowns. And I think he was presenting like this very early production of Daughter. I don’t even think it was full length yet.

And he’s been, like, that show has now traveled. I think there’s a production in London, I think, either coming up or has happened. It just happened.

Yeah. Very cool. When did you, like, you worked with him, you know, he was your mentor at Paprika.

But how did you come on board for Daughter?

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah. So, I was at the Theatre Centre in 2017, 2018. So, right with the big first Toronto run.

And I was still the administrator in the office at that time working on that condo project. And I don’t, we like, Aislinn was like, oh, this is our new administrator. And we were like, oh, I think we know each other.

And then he was working in the incubator. And he came into the office. And he was like, I just need a couple people to just like, be in the space while I do a run.

And I had started it within a month of starting there. So, I actually was not familiar with the show at all. And I watched it with just myself and Liza Paul, and a couple of the designers in the incubator.

And he just did the whole show, like, right here. And I actually went through the experience that one time, when they see Daughter, I was like, oh my god, I love my dad. I hate my dad.

Every man is good. Every man is bad. I’m bad.

I’m the problem. Like, you know, you just, you rip yourself apart. And I was like, oh, oh, I’m so game.

And I think that not being intimidated by that was a big part of the beginning of our collaboration. It’s like, it’s a challenging, it’s a, it’s a challenging piece. And so we were, there was some collaboration on making a TV pitch for this at one point.

And we were just like, kind of riffing on this and realizing that we had a really shared language, which was horror movies and TV. And so we really kind of like struck up this bizarre friendship over horror movies in making all of these weird side projects around Daughter. And so when I was on maternity leave in 2022, I was like, you know, listen, let me know if you need any help with some grants.

And he was like, listen, I’m trying to make this show. And so that’s how we got started working on Versa as through Daughter.

[Phil Rickaby]
Well, let’s talk about Versa. What can you tell me about Versa?

[Alexis Eastman]
Versa is phenomenal. I’m so excited about this show. It’s like, it’s, it’s so special.

It’s, we had a workshop run in Summer Works in August of last year. And we, was it last year, 2023? Time is such a, a tricksy thing.

[Phil Rickaby]
Time has changed since the pandemic. My perception of time is completely altered.

[Alexis Eastman]
Do you, do you have like a conspiracy theory about this or do you just feel like we were all in our houses for too long?

[Phil Rickaby]
Personally, I think we’re all in our houses for too long, but I have heard the, the, the conspiracy theory that during the pandemic, we all sort of shifted to a new reality and that’s why time works differently. I’ve heard both of those, but I kind of think that we just spent too much time in our homes, separated from other people watching Netflix and now we don’t have any perception of time.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yes. And with totally by accident, that’s like sort of what Versa is about. We all were separated in our homes, watching Netflix.

We’re totally disconnected from one another. Adam used to say, you know, like the shows about this feeling, I know this is a podcast, I’m just like, I’m just shaking my head and like look stressed out. You know, you wake up in the morning and you’re just like, you already feel late and stressed out and like you failed and like you haven’t got enough protein or collagen and like, how do you live right?

This like in, in 2026, like what does that even mean? And we’re all dealing with this, like kind of crushing rules and trying to do right in the face of also a lot of like really like bleak and devastating reality. And so the story follows a guy who wakes up, it’s his birthday.

He really doesn’t want to go to his birthday party. The audience is there, like maybe you could help him make a smoothie. Maybe somebody can walk his dog.

The audience is like really into the show. And it’s this really Gerald, the character trying to figure out how to live right. Taking the audience on this kind of practical effects driven adventure.

[Phil Rickaby]
It sort of sounds like one of those, like it sounds it’s pandemic adjacent almost, but not like pet. I think the thing that we were all afraid of when the pandemic was happening is that there will be a slew of like, here’s me, it’s the pandemic. And this is my play about how I spent pandemic.

And we would all be like, yes, I know we all did that. But this is like almost Groundhog Day ish. I think it’s, it’s giving me, it’s giving me Groundhog Day.

[Alexis Eastman]
That’s a great vibe for it. Yes, absolutely. Like the, the Adam said this thing today.

He’s like, we have to imagine Sisyphus is enjoying himself. And we’re, we’re all sort of in our own Groundhog days, our own Sisyphean challenges. And how do we, how do we connect with one another.

And so the, the real experience of versus is to be in a room with other people in the kind of experience that could only happen in live performance, when other people are there and to feel alive again. And so, you know, you’re going to go on this wild journey with Gerald and land out of, you know, land in a really like special connected place. It’s going to be like, it’s going to be a party and we’re building it for seven weeks with designers and collaborators at the theatre center with support from the NAC’s creation fund.

It’s like truly, it’s really a very, very special project.

[Phil Rickaby]
The fun thing about, about producing and doing this kind of show is I think that as the show is being created, you’re making something completely new and you have seven weeks to do it. And what a gift that is in the theatre world to have seven weeks to work on a show. That’s so rare for you as the creative producer.

What does that kind of timeframe give to a show that a, that a regular rehearsal process of like two to three weeks doesn’t?

[Alexis Eastman]
It’s a funny question because I have accidentally not really worked on a show that hasn’t had sort of like an insane timeline. You know, I, I’ve been part, I’ve been like five of a nine year process or like three of a seven year process. I, I really have been incredibly, incredibly privileged in, in that way.

And it’s only recently that I’m actually working on shows that are in a much more like typical, like four to six week kind of turnaround. I think it’s really the opportunity for failure. And I think the question of what the element of time brings, what comes after you write the first novel, you know, there is so much to learn once you make a mistake.

Like I’m sure you and I will end this conversation and then I will come up with like 10 super cool things to say about the show in like such a smart way. And I’ll have like such a great answer for creative producer because you’ve got to try stuff out and see if it works. And then you learn, you get feedback and, and you learn.

And I think that’s, yeah, that opportunity to fail is so, so huge and, and to bring audience into the process throughout.

[Phil Rickaby]
Well, you have so much time to fail. If you have that, like if you only have two to three weeks of rehearsal, you only have, there’s only so much time that you have to like completely fuck things up. Like after a certain point, the pressure is on, you’ve got to get it right.

And so you can’t fail anymore. But for seven weeks, you have all the time in the world to like do some early failings so that you can like hit the ground running when you really need to put on the, to step on the gas.

[Alexis Eastman]
You absolutely can. And then it also, you know, offers its own unique challenges, like a sprint versus a marathon, right? Like how do you sustain a collaborative process?

This team for Versus specifically really operates on like that, as many collaborators in the room, as much of the time as possible. Like that’s really what our investment is in artists having the time to all be there and riff and try stuff out and to also be part of each other’s design process in a more holistic way. Like how can you design illusions without knowing what the lights will be like?

How can you light the set not knowing if it’s, you know, anything about it? And those, those results are just that much more integrated and holistic and they feel truer because they are built in conversation. Those elements are built in conversation with one another.

I think you get a really fleshed out, thick, rigorous world. You got really something you can walk through.

[Phil Rickaby]
You mentioned a couple of times that you’re a mom. I am. And you’re a mom and you are somebody who’s, who’s, who’s doing like the creative producing work.

How has motherhood changed your perception of the work that you do?

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah. Like profoundly, which I’m really underestimated. I was pretty naive about.

I, you know, I remember being really like, um, well, I love, I love the theatre center so much. I, I will, nothing will ever change. Nothing will ever change that.

But I really couldn’t conceive of, of, of weaving of, of that world changing. But when, but also when I became a mom, I realized number one, that a big thing about where my producing energy was coming from was the same. Well, that I was drawing my maternal energy.

I’m like, it was the same thing. And I had to figure out how to separate those things. And I had to figure out how to do that in my own time.

So that’s why I moved to freelance because I was like, I have to figure out what’s mom. What’s a producer. Who am I?

It was like a really big personal, you know, you’re you’re, you become somebody’s mom. You really underestimate. I was like, you just got to have this quick baby.

And then I’m going to go back to doing paperwork. And so it, it demands and it demands rigor in all ways. I had to get really distinct about that energy because I have to be able to provide great energy to my kid and be a present parent and a caregiver.

And not also like really demands my rigor and attention because when I do have the time to produce, I’m like, okay, I want to show up to this prepared. I want to be present. I want to really be efficient in my, in my work and resourceful and an unintimidated, you know, because, because I also like I’ve given birth.

So, okay, we’ll figure this out too. It’s just too grand. That’s fine.

[Phil Rickaby]
I think it’s interesting how you, you initially had thought I was, I was having the baby and then I’ll go back to doing what I did. And I, I wonder, I think that might be because we don’t do a lot of talking about what parenthood really looks like. I think we rely too much on television where if the parents stay out for 12 hours, they’re going to come home and that kid’s just fine.

Right. Nobody’s going to ask any questions. They’re on TV.

[Alexis Eastman]
Dishes are done.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Alexis Eastman]
There’s no laundry belts out. There’s no homework.

[Phil Rickaby]
And then it, but the reality is that you’re a parent and that takes time. And how, how, oh, let’s be honest. How unprepared were you for the, the amount of, of, of work that motherhood, that parenthood takes?

[Alexis Eastman]
Oh my God. It’s truly a question, you know, like I could not have been more humbled. And I really, I remember, you know, I said my twenties are going to be mine and then I will figure it out in my thirties to be like, I took my time.

I read books. I tried to be really prepared, but like truly had no, no perception of kind of like the holistic shift that would take place. Like that, because my values changed.

That’s what I really underestimated. And I’m such a value driven person. I’m an artist.

I’m a creator. I’m like, I move based on my values and my values move, not just because I prioritize my kid more because I see, I see the whole world differently. And so I have to react to my own self-changing.

Like you have to let life happen to you. Right?

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I’m curious.

One of the shows that you’ve worked on was secret life of a mother at the theatre center.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yes. Wow.

[Phil Rickaby]
Was that, was that a pre pregnancy show or post-pregnancy show?

[Alexis Eastman]
That was pre-pregnancy. And that’s, I love that. That was amazing for several reasons, you know, cause I, we prototyped audience child care in the incubator.

And that was like a side project that I did at the time for that. And I had no idea. The, the true value of that.

I was like, Oh God, great. Childcare. Like that makes sense.

They’re moms. You know what I mean? Like I had such this surface perception of her, whereas now I’m like, without this, she audience would not be able to see this show.

Like it is, it is like a, a 10 to one impact. It’s such an impactful thing. It’s, it’s more than butts in seats.

It’s truly connecting with your audience and like a, and needing them and offering them something tangible for their experience, which then you see the show. So reflecting on that and my perception of that was so fascinating. And then also, you know, some of those stories that Mav tells are remained quite vivid.

I’m sure.

[Phil Rickaby]
If people do not know that show, there is some very, there are moments in that show that like visceral moments, visceral storytelling that after that, so I don’t think there’s a person who left that theatre. There wasn’t, I need to call my mom.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Just like, and Mav at one point like shows the photos of herself bruised after giving birth.

It’s just like, no, there was like lines of that show ringing, ringing in my head just throughout, but also a lot of other things like my perspective on childcare that started landing for me and like the, the friendship and the care that Anne-Marie and Mav and Hannah and Marinda DeBeer, their stage manager and dramaturg had for one another and for themselves and for them as mothers throughout the process was very impactful then, but even more impactful now, like it’s like, it’s hit me through time.

Hannah gave me at the very end of the, the crows run, she gave me this sticker and it’s this mom breastfeeding while eating a cheeseburger. And I didn’t know how bad-ass that was, you know, like just until I was doing it one time and I was like, Oh my God, like, I got it. This is, this is it.

[Phil Rickaby]
You can’t know, you can’t know how bad-ass that is until like that’s your life. Right.

[Alexis Eastman]
And it was so hard for me to find moms in, in the arts who were staying, working in the arts and, and like figuring out how, how they struck that balance. So I, when I was in a room and Lisa Marie DiLiberto from Theatre Direct who started Balancing Act was in the room, I just like chased her down. And I was like, Hey, can you tell me how to be a caregiver in the arts?

You know, because that’s what Balancing Act is, is all about. And, and we struck up a friendship and that’s how I’ve been now collaborating with, with Theatre Direct and working with her and Kate there, just working with moms in the arts has just been like, it’s truly life-changing. It it’s been, it’s been so special.

[Phil Rickaby]
We, the people in the industry often talk about the, the theatre community, even though the theatre community is many, many different siloed, siloed communities. But I would imagine that as, as a mother who’s working in the arts, you need a very particular kind of community. You need other people who are also mothers working in the arts in a way that I think other communities don’t quite need the same thing.

You need people who’ve had that, that experience. Aside from like, like chasing people down, how, how do you build that?

[Alexis Eastman]
It’s been chasing people down. It’s been, it’s been like really pushing myself personally to, to like brave talking to, you know, like being like, Hey, I’m a mom. Are you a mom?

You seem like a mom. How are you doing it? You know, like really just because it’s, we don’t talk about it.

And it, and I think like professionally, I think most people in most sectors have to perform this kind of like non-parenthood in their job. And so, and I think in the art, there’s like a lot of complex layers on that for people. And I think it feels very, very new to me, like the visibility of children and parenthood in even like just amongst my collaborators.

And, and I don’t know if that’s just because now I’m a parent and I see it or if it really is actually because we’re, we’re starting to be a little bit more open about that.

[Phil Rickaby]
Could be both. You sort of mentioned about how you had to fight your own struggle about like chasing somebody down or like talking to somebody about, are you a mother? That sort of thing.

Those kinds of conversations are like my nightmare, like walk up to somebody and like, have a, like ask them a question. If I don’t know them really well, the introvert in me, my skin crawls at that. Is, are you an introvert or an extrovert or somewhere in between?

[Alexis Eastman]
That’s a great question. If you ask my mother, she’s like, she’s an extrovert. I know she is.

I don’t know because I, I do, I do need quite a, quite a bit of alone time. And you know, that, that shit really terrifies me too. It really, really scares me.

I think to go back to my point about fear, like, like 98% of this stuff scares me. It’s so scary to make a show that’s brand new and try and get investors and, and, and build a pathway and creation and like bet on your future creative ideas. Like it’s, it’s all very, very scary.

I’ve really tried to like integrate that, figure out how to like just bring that fear with me. And I, I always kind of like, I laugh when folks say that, like, cause I’m like, Oh my God, me too. Like if you could see the ticker tape in my head while I am talking to that person, you know, like it would be very, maybe a little bit different.

And that’s not to say I’m disingenuous. It’s just to say like, that stuff is so scary. It’s very real.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Yeah. I remember the last time I did a fringe festival, which was 2019.

And it was, we were still doing like fliering lines, which is something that doesn’t really happen anymore. And I’m really thankful because every time I had to fly a line, I would be around the corner, like breathing into a paper bag before I would go do it. It’s like my nightmare.

It’s like the worst possible thing. And then of course, as a person who’s done fringe, you’ve had to do something like that as well.

[Alexis Eastman]
Oh, absolutely. I did that. I remember I helped out the outside the March when they were doing tomorrow, love, I was doing some like associate producing for them and they’re like, okay, great.

Let’s sell some program ads, you know, with like local businesses. And I’m just trying to get my foot in the door. Right.

You know, I’m just a producer trying to make her way in this Mary Tyler Moore sort of moment. So I was like, yeah, sure. Absolutely.

You know? And I was just like, Oh God, dry heaving in the alley beside the place. And then, you know, it’s so scary.

You feel like a loser. You know, you know, theatre’s cool, but you don’t know how to explain that to them.

[Phil Rickaby]
The person working behind the counter at the print shop, as you’re describing, like, just like having to do that. My skin is crawling. It’s just like, no, no.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah. I think producers, producers are like, you know, you’ve got to be able, you’ve got to be able to be brave. A collaborator sent in an email to me.

They’re like, Oh, sorry. If I made you do something tedious in a spreadsheet. And I was like, listen, if I was afraid of tedious spreadsheets, I wouldn’t be long gone.

Like there’s just like, there’s like certain things, like some jobs, you need steel-toed shoes. I’ve got to, I’ve got to talk to strangers all the fucking time.

[Phil Rickaby]
In the time that we have left, I would really love to learn more about you as a, as an artist and how you came into theatre. What was your, what was your gateway? How did you, how did you first become interested in theatre?

[Alexis Eastman]
I mean, I’m like a truly, when I was four, I was in a play and I never stopped. Like I, I’m absolutely one of those. And so what’s been actually really surreal for me is after I made, I made a second show after that first print show was called Manstein.

It was like this tiny thing about a cult family. We did it like just in the collective studio up on Lansdowne for a couple nights, many, many years ago now. I was like trying so hard to write my third play.

And I didn’t want to devise it because after devising two shows, I was like, I want to be in charge of what people are saying. I don’t want to take everybody’s ideas. I want just my idea.

And I couldn’t write the dialogue to say, you know, it was like, I’m mad. This angers me. Like it was just so stilted.

I, I know I have great ideas that I just couldn’t. So I was like, okay, trying to come at this from another way. This was my summer of two fingers of ice cold kettle one to break, to break the ice.

And so I was like, okay, I’m going to write like a movie treatment of the play and I’ll describe it to myself. And then I’ll start to like pull stuff out of there. And then I wrote a novel.

And, and so I think actually what I have personally figured out is I am not a theatre creator. I think I’m personally, my practice is a novelist. I’ve, so I’m like, I’m trying to, as I’ve completed one, I’m working on another one.

It comes out so clear and easy. Felt so much easier than that dialogue then, then, then like, it’s, it’s everything about directing and devising that I loved. It’s, yeah.

So that’s been my, like, that’s been my failure. My, when I asked the question, fuck, am I even a playwright? The answer was no.

[Phil Rickaby]
It is fascinating to me because, you know, as a writer, I’ve always wanted to write a novel. Yeah. But most of my ideas, they come to me.

I’m like, yeah, that’s a play. So I write the play. There’s very few that are like, that’s a novel because somehow I’ve developed a brain that thinks in terms of theatre.

And so whenever I have an idea, that’s usually where they go. And, but you know, every writer finds their own way. Every writer finds the thing that they’re doing.

And so you’ve gone from devised theatre and, and found that writing like novel writing is the way to go. Did you find that writing dialogue in a novel is easier for you than writing dialogue in a play?

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah. It just comes out differently. And also the, I’m, I’m like certainly in some like, they call it new weird literary would be, it would be the genre.

So like, I’m, I also like enjoy a lot of flexibility where I felt really like trapped by the boundaries of like script dialogue and performance as a playwright. You know, when you’re devising in the room, it’s so different, but to like, to write it and then offer it to a director and in a room that you’re not in, it’s such a different thing to write that kind of text. I, I admire playwrights so much.

There’s so much braver than me. They, they leave so much to the room. It’s stunning.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s such a fascinating thing to do though. Like to be like, this is what I think. And then to be able to let go and go, and now I’m giving it to these people to interpret and to come up with things that I never could have thought of.

It’s like the height of collaboration, right? I’ve done this thing. This is my part.

And now it goes to you.

[Alexis Eastman]
That’s beautiful. Oh, that’s a really good. I’m like, am I going to go write a play?

Like I’m going to, I’ve got to go back.

[Phil Rickaby]
Well, I’m actually curious because you mentioned that you were studying devised theatre at York. Did you know about devised theatre before you went to York? Like what was, how did you find your way into, into that form of theatre creation?

[Alexis Eastman]
It was very similar to the theatre center. I did not have a name for it, but in my local, oh my God, I love a shout out to the Georgetown little theatre, the TLT. Oh my God.

I love them so much. Cat Heaven. I was given the opportunity to direct a few shows and my process was super devised and I had no idea.

And so, you know, at 16, I was like working with my like 12 year old actor to figure out exactly how she wanted to move through the space based on her day. And, you know, like these were already kind of shapes that I was working. And so when I did have that exploratory first year and they, and I understood what creative ensemble was, I was like, oh, absolutely.

And I, I, I didn’t, I knew I was not a conservatory actor. I, I just was like, I listen, I know I’m like a precocious kid and this will run out and I do not actually have the ability to really be an actor. And so, uh, yeah, that, and that was when Mark Wilson was running the program in that first year.

And I was just so excited to do the audition to make the five minutes just like was that just the opportunity to respond to a prompt like that. I still think about my whole thing was about good. I was 17.

It was five minutes about how I wanted to be a badass because my mom didn’t let me read Harry Potter because he was a warlock.

[Phil Rickaby]
Did there, was that a prompt he chose or was that the prompt that was given to you?

[Alexis Eastman]
No, it was, the prompt was like something much, much more general. It was just like, it needs to be five minutes. You need to have movement.

You need to have this, it needs to be personal. It needs to be that. And I just used it as this way to like, you know, I used it as my first novel, my first Shirley Jackson.

Like I made it about, I’m going to hate my parents. Like, I bet it was, it was just all about how I wanted to be a badass. I want it to be like a cool girl, not one of these, like, you know, I went to a Catholic high school and my parents went to an evangelical church.

You know, I have like this kind of sheltered thing that I was really ready to break free of.

[Phil Rickaby]
Okay. Was that something that was that actual or was that something you just invented for the show?

[Alexis Eastman]
Oh no, that was true.

[Phil Rickaby]
That was true. I have to ask as a former evangelical myself, because not only did I grow up in the evangelical church, but then when I was a teenager, my dad went to seminary, became an Anglican priest. I am curious about how you, and if you, found that you had to deconstruct a lot of the stuff that you were raised with in order to like, just become a full person.

[Alexis Eastman]
Oh man. Yeah. Well, it’s, it’s quite a thing to shed that, that big dogma and to walk up to some of those things like sin and hell and the, that goes black and white concepts and just start to slowly dismantle those, how scary that is.

And then I’ll just, how much room and freedom and bliss there is on the other side of that.

[Phil Rickaby]
But it’s so hard to do that on your own, like just to like, because nobody in the church is going to help you do it. You got to figure that out. Yeah.

[Alexis Eastman]
Which is, I think why I came out of theatre school and made a show called Christ, Christ, Christ. That was about crazy guys who thought they were God, you know? And like immediately I’m interrogating like, what even is this thing that we’re, we’re doing?

I remember, like I bought, I truly was just like, it was so profound to me. And then this idea that there were other crucified saviors that existed in the world and used to start pulling this thread of information and truth that exists outside of this small platter that you’ve been served.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Alexis Eastman]
It’s frightening.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s so frightening.

[Alexis Eastman]
You got to process it. So I did it with art.

[Phil Rickaby]
And it’s so hard because I think a lot of times the barrier that people have is that they’re, they’ve been raised not to process it. Don’t question, don’t ask questions. Just, just believe, don’t ask questions.

Don’t. And then when you start, once you start thinking critically, everything just starts to change.

[Alexis Eastman]
As they’re, especially their relationship to you.

[Phil Rickaby]
Oh, that even, even that I wasn’t even talking about that. I was just talking about like, just like coming to realizations.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah. Yeah. It’s so, it’s so surreal.

And it is, it’s very, I, I, there are, I think there are a lot of us evangelicals in, in the arts. And I think it’s, I’m, I’m super fascinated with it. And because I’m also, I would like to reclaim some of that spirituality.

I feel like a very spiritual person on the other side of that. And I think like the arts has such this interesting relationship with, with, with all of it. It’s been a very interesting experiment to like how, and when I talk about spirituality in, in my practice.

[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, it’s so, it can be a dangerous thing to do, right? Like, is this a safe room to talk about that in? Or do I, do I reveal that about myself?

And it’s so hard to, to, to figure those kinds of things out. Cause you don’t necessarily know like how that conversation is going to go in a room. Right.

[Alexis Eastman]
And then I met this artist through the theatre center, Thomas McKechnie. Do you know them? I don’t know.

And they are also, I think they’re a Reverend or a priest and they just have this, they did this work called worm moon, which was a ritual around the worm moon, which is like one of the full moon in like the lunar cycle in a year. And it was on zoom during COVID and the ritual was to honor the worm moon. And during that ritual, you also built a vermicomposter, which is like a worm compost in your own home.

And they walked you through the process of, of building that. And Thomas like really allows there’s virtuality. Like it’s, it’s so present and unafraid and accessible in their practice.

It’s been so inspirational for me to be like, Oh yeah. Like that enhances this. Just like motherhood, you know, like my colleague at theatre direct Kate said to me, you know, like you’re a better producer because you’re a mom, not in spite of being a mom.

And I think you’re, you’re, you’re a better creator for having walked through that evangelical shedding and, and being able to like stand on the other side of it. You’ve, you’ve seen some show you’ve got something to work with.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. That, that statement of you’re a better, you’re a better producer because you are a mom, not in spite of being a mom. Was that like a, how was that to hear?

[Alexis Eastman]
Oh my God. You know, like you just like literally just start crying and say, I love you. Like you just, it’s, it’s like, it’s one of those things that you, you call back on.

Like it’s a touchstone. It’s, it’s so reassuring because it’s also true. And I’m not, and it’s not in like a way where I’m blowing smoke up my butt.

It’s like in a way where this role of being a mom has given me a lot of skills that I can now wield to be a producer. Firstly, I’m still emotionally regulated. It’s, I can help a room stay calm and navigate a stress.

That’s super, super useful. That’s beyond useful. How old is your child?

He’s three and a half, three and a half.

[Phil Rickaby]
So you have, you have like gone through tantrums.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yes. I’ve gone through a couple.

[Phil Rickaby]
So if you can do that, you can handle any diva.

[Alexis Eastman]
Cause it’s the same thing. It’s a person who is like, I cannot tolerate my current circumstances. I am communicating them back to you.

The best way I know.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Just as a really drawing to a close here, I want to talk a little bit more about versus just briefly in terms of like, when can people see it?

[Alexis Eastman]
Yeah. So we are going to announce the details of a sneak peek that is going to take place at the end of May, but our, our, like our details are still, are still cooking up, but we’re going to have a sneak peek at the end of May and then a premiere later this year.

[Phil Rickaby]
Awesome. So like, like the sneak peek is literally that, and then, and then hopefully the actual production, like.

[Alexis Eastman]
Yes. Then it will be, then it will be the full, then it will be the full thing before it tours the world.

[Phil Rickaby]
Nice. Knock on wood. Well, I mean, I mean, Daughter has had like a, quite the life.

[Alexis Eastman]
And it was truly interrupted by COVID. Like it was at bat or sea. It was like, it was, I remember being in the office that day when I was like, okay, that’s shut down.

We had a team in Belgium and we were like, hey, we’re, the airport’s closing. We have to get them out. You know, that was so interrupted.

And I think it would have, and I think there might even still be some more touring life left in there if, if Adam wants to do both these shows at the same time.

[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, hey, I mean, I’m sure he’s got it in him.

[Alexis Eastman]
I bet. Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely.

[Phil Rickaby]
Well, Alexis, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. I’ve loved this conversation and thanks for joining me on stage, really.

[Alexis Eastman]
Thank you so much, Phil. This is, this is so fun. Thank you.

[Phil Rickaby]
Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Stageworthy. Before I get into who my guest is next week, let’s take care of a little bit of housekeeping. First off, if you are watching on YouTube, please make sure that you leave a comment so I know that you were here, like the episode.

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I can’t do this without them. And if you want to be one of the people who’s helping to make this show possible, please consider becoming a patron, go to patreon.com slash stage worthy and become a patron patrons get early access to episodes, you know, conversations about interesting topics in Canadian theatre. And the more people who join as patrons, the more I’ll be able to offer to patrons in the future.

And so if you’d like to do that, if you want to help me out, go to patreon.com slash stage with my guest next week is Miriam Cummings. And I actually talked to Miriam 14 years ago on a podcast that I had with a different name at the time I went to the Montreal fringe as artists were arriving. And I had about a 15 minute conversation with I don’t know, maybe 20 fringe artists in Montreal was a exhausting weekend, but a really rewarding one.

I spoke to Miriam all that time ago. And so now I’m reconnecting with Miriam’s have a conversation about her solo work crossing the country for the arts and so much more. So tune in next week for that conversation with Miriam Cummings.