Daniel Pagett & Jason Maghanoy: Hangman

Daniel Pagett and Jason Maghanoy talk about Jason’s play Hangman, opening May 13, 2016 at the Storefront Theatre.

An examination of how we are shaped by our circumstances, Hangman follows the story of Alistair, a murderer who survives hanging for his crimes and finds unexpected salvation in a mysterious drifter named Winston. Winston takes what he needs to survive and has the town searching for him, greatly endangering the paralyzed Alistair who has been left for the rats under the gallows. As Alistair begins to realize he can rise above his dire situation and past life, Winston sinks deeper into the violence that is consuming the town, leading to a tragic and explosive ending. Written by Jason Maghanoy and directed by Daniel Pagett. Starring Prince Amponsah, Alexander Thomas, Vanessa Trenton, Jon Blair, and Vince Carlin, with puppeteer Kaitlin Morrow.

Danny Pagett
Twitter: @spoonydan
Instagram: @danquo

Jason Maghanoy
Instagram: @jmaghanoy
http://jsquaredtheatre.blogspot.ca/

Storefront Theatre
@storefrontTO
https://www.facebook.com/TheStorefrontTheatre
http://thestorefronttheatre.com/

Stageworthy:
http://www.stageworthypodcast.com
Twitter @stageworthyPod
Facebook: http://facebook.com/stageworthyPod

Transcript

Welcome to episode 19 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. On Stageworthy, I interview people who make theatre, actors, directors, playwrights, and more, and talk to them about everything from why they chose the theatre, to their work process, and anything in between.

You can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter at StageworthyPod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. If you like what you hear, I hope you’ll subscribe on iTunes, or Google Music, or whatever podcast app you use, and consider leaving a comment or rating. Guys, I’m trying not to freak out, but my solo show The Commandment starts rehearsals next week. The Commandment is going to premiere at the Hamilton Fringe Festival in Hamilton, Ontario in July, and if you follow me on Twitter or Facebook, you’ll be hearing a lot about that as the summer goes on.

This is my first solo play, so it’s a bit frightening, but, you know, the good kind, not the bad kind. This episode is Jason Maghanoy and Daniel Padgett. Jason’s play Hangman plays this month at Toronto Storefront Theatre.

Hangman follows the story of a man condemned to die for crimes of unspeakable savagery and a man hell-bent on justice. Hangman is a western with no moral compass and no easy answers, and it opens May 13th and runs till May 29th. Again, that’s at Toronto Storefront Theatre.

Can you guys tell me about Hangman? Yeah. Yes, we can. All right.

So, please do so. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

No, no. I’m just like going at it. No, listen, listen.

The thing is, the one thing I find is that I don’t want you to, I’m now giving it away, I don’t like to give you the opportunity to get your, oh, I’m being interviewed hat on, because I want you to be unguarded. Well, Dan’s not going to have fun with that. The wine will help with that.

Exactly, yeah. Hopefully, the tea will get you jazzed up, so you can… I don’t want wine, because I don’t know. Yeah, absolutely.

So, Hangman. Yeah. Tell me about what that is.

Well, Jason approached me with the script almost like a year ago now. It was a little while ago, and he was sort of like, hey, I like your work. Here’s a script that I have.

Just check it out. It was very just sort of like, hey, do you want to read this script? And so I read it, and I really liked it. And right around the time that I finished reading it, the storefront was looking for projects.

And so I just sort of tossed it at them. I just sort of was like, hey, it was like a really last-minute application. I was just sort of like, read the script, and picture it with me directing it.

Does that sound like something that you guys want? But it’s a beautiful play. It’s highly poetic. It is, I think, and Jason and I actually haven’t talked about this, I think… Oh, this is going to be great then.

I know, right? I think it’s sort of about outsider culture. It’s very much about how we will treat people as though they are outsiders and then blame them for acting like outsiders, essentially. And it’s dealt with in a very harsh, very brutal way.

And that’s sort of what drew me to it in the first place, was that it’s poetic but still very honest, if that makes any sense. Yeah. I don’t know, what do you think of the play that you wrote? Yeah.

It’s funny, because what inspired it was there was this town in Pennsylvania where there’s a coal fire that’s been burning underneath the town since the 60s. So basically, I think the town is called Centralia, Pennsylvania or something. And it’s just basically, it’s a never-ending fire.

So that image was like, well, I love that idea. I love the idea of sort of this coal fire just burning forever. And I just loved… And then basically, it was like the town gets condemned and then everyone has to leave except for these three people who just stay and they just want to live there still.

And I was like, man, who are those guys? Who are those three dudes? Just like, nope, stay out. And what is it about? So what is it about for me? So that was one image that started it. And the next image was this idea of sort of community, this idea of how do you build a community? What does it mean to build a community? What does it mean for a community to change? And the violence associated with that.

And it was funny, because I remember when I started developing the play, I started developing it in Terrebonne House in the playwrights’ unit. And when I first started writing the play there, I was like, oh man, Terrebonne will never do this play. They’re never going to do this play.

So maybe I should just do a play they will do. So I was like, taking out my dinner party plays and taking out my midlife crisis play as I was having one. Which are all great, Terrebonne.

They’re great, and I love them. They’re all wonderful. They’re fantastic.

And then my agent was like, no, no, just write the play you want to write and be there, because it’s a very freeing environment. You have access to just be free. So I just had a chance to write.

And it’s so true, in terms of just the world and the poetry and seeing what Danny’s doing with it. It’s just like, man, it seems so big. It just seems really big, this place.

And then seeing how they’re engaging it, and they’re making it even bigger for me. That’s incredibly exciting as a playwright to see that. Could I ask you about that feeling that you had when you were at the playwright unit, that you felt like you couldn’t write the thing that you wanted? Just out of curiosity, what was it that was making you feel that way? Do you think it was something you were doing to yourself, that you thought Terrebonne only does this sort of thing? Or did you think you had to write for Terrebonne? Yeah, it was funny, because I was in the unit in their 2011-12 season.

So I was like, I just wanted to be done there. I wanted to be produced there. So when I was invited to the unit, I was so thrilled.

I thought, man, this is my shot to do that. Yeah, I was at a Hamilton. But then at the same time, I thought I had an idea of what they were interested in.

So I felt I had to do that, even though that wasn’t the point of being in that. And at the end, what happened over the course of the writing process for the play, it’s sort of like, yeah, Terrebonne didn’t do it. They passed on the show.

But just what I ended up with after that process was great, because I just sort of let go of that expectation of trying to write my way into a season or change my voice or change who I was to try to get onto a season. And that feeling, that felt really good, and that actually helped strengthen this play. Yeah, great.

I always find keeping in mind the process is sometimes so difficult, because you often think, oh, the end result. And the end result, Terrebonne doing the show, but the process gets you an excellent play, right? I talked with Dan a little bit previously with Sex T-Rex about his theatre background a little bit. We can get a little more, because that was in a big room full of people.

So I’d like to start with you, Jason. What’s your theatre background? What drew you to theatre? You know, it’s funny, because I wrote play. I just wrote stuff.

I was a writer, I would say. I wrote various words and sentences. And then basically, I went to school for playwriting.

I went to National Theatre School. And then I came to Toronto and then just started basically doing the festival and getting my work done. And I’ve had a lot of great opportunities through the established theatres in the city.

And then I just sort of, that’s like the vaguest thing. I literally write plays. We’re good.

Oh, panic. Okay. That fear of time.

Anyway, wearing a Doctor Who shirt, talking about a time warp. Anyway. Yeah.

I’ve worked in the theatre as a playwright, doing the festival circuit. And I’ve been in residence at Cahoots Theatre Company and Passener Eye and Young People’s Theatre. And yeah, it’s working through the establishment.

You went to National Theatre School. Where were you before that? Were you in Montreal? I was in Montreal. So I went to McGill and I did English Lit in Poli Sci at McGill.

And then when I remember, and I always loved having this anecdote because it’s the greatest anecdote of my life. I remember when I applied to National Theatre School, I applied and then I was wondering if I was going to get in. It was something that I was trying to do.

I also wanted to graduate and travel and go somewhere else. And then I remember I got home from, I was out one day and when I checked my messages and the first message was Anna Lambert who ran the playwriting program at NCS. And she was like, hello, Jason, we’d love for you to come in for an interview for a play.

Is she British? No, she’s not. I just added that because National Theatre School, like, oh, I’m going to go in. And I was like, oh, boys.

I was with my roommates and I was like, guys, man, I’m blowing up. I’m blowing up. I’m huge.

And the next call was Diego Matamoros. And he was like, hello, Jason. I’m calling from a company called Soul Pepper.

We’re new and blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh my God, yeah. Because I had sent them a play.

I had sent them a play through one of my dramaturgs at NCS, Claudia Day, who was working with Martha Burns at the time. And she’s a founder there. So I get these two messages and I’m like, oh, boys, it doesn’t matter where I go, I’m blowing up.

And it was just ridiculous. And I remember when I did my interview at NCS, I graduated from McGill. And right after I graduated, I had my interview.

So I went in my graduation suit. I went to the interview. And the first question they asked me was, so like, so why do you write plays? And my answer was like, because I’m good at it or something.

No, because I’m good at it. Because I can. Yeah.

Because I can and I’m good at it. And I remember after I said that, I was like, oh my God, Jay, you bombed. You literally, this interview’s over.

You bombed. And one person looked at me like, oh, who is this guy? And kind of like just stopped speaking to me. And then I became friendly.

And then I started doing my interview and I laughed. I was like, oh man, I totally got into that school. So it was like, it’s like, so it was just funny.

It was like, sort of like, you know, I wanted to go and I ended up going. And then when I came out to Toronto, it was just like, just diving right into the scene here and getting a chance to work here. It’s been really great.

Cool. And so you’re somebody who wrote a lot of plays when they were a kid. Were you, did you, were you interested in theatre as a kid or was that a recent, was that more of an adult thing? Yeah, it was more of an adult thing.

Yeah. You know, I, I, yeah, more of an adult thing. And even, even now it’s like, do I even like writing plays? It’s like half the time I’m writing a play and I’m like, damn, it’s sunny outside.

I should just go out there. That’s great wine. I kind of know what you mean.

Cause I, I have to admit, I love, I love writing plays. Yeah. The first draft after that.

Oh, it’s to fix it. Yeah. That’s what the editing, the work, the like the actual work, the fun stuff.

First draft you’re like, yeah, I made this thing, you know, great. But you know, after that you have to make a thing that people can watch. Um, so you guys knew each other before or were you total strangers when you walked up to Dan? We like vaguely knew each other, but not much.

Yeah. Only by reputation. Really? We met like once, once I was, I was, I was at the bar today.

I was at the bar that we, that we were at where we took, it was, it was the, uh, it was the, uh, the hair of the dog on church. And like, it was literally, I don’t even remember what it was. It was a book launch and Danny performed cat Sandler’s monologue from help yourself that night.

Yeah. And then we went to, then we went to bear and dog and not bear dog, a hair of the dog. And, uh, and that was like the one time that we met.

And then the next time it was like, Hey, let’s play. And it’s crazy is Danny cat Sandler, myself and Jordan. It’s like, it’s the most famous theatre photo.

We had no idea that we were all going to blow up the way that we did. Yeah. That’s fantastic.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Tannehill was there.

It was phenomenal. It was like, and that was great. Cause that was a great initiative.

It was that, but it was a buddy. It was that buddies. It was, it was, uh, the, I can’t remember the name of the book was the, uh, but it was like, it was all Toronto playwrights.

I know the book is on the shelf. It’s called Toronto voices. I know I had it at one point.

There was one point where I did a very painful book purge. So it may have been hard for me and Jordan and Danny, like, there were a lot of books that I put out. I just think about it.

We’re both free. Someone else is enjoying it. Somebody found the book.

I’m not making it any better. No better. I’m waiting for the day that I find that book in like my own laundry room.

And it’s like my roommate, it’s Alec that threw it the same book. We talked a little bit about the themes of the play. Yeah.

Um, can you tell me a little bit more about the story of the player or like what, what is this? Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. It’s it’s about, uh, this, this guy named, uh, Alistair who, uh, he’s, uh, he’s a serial killer. He’s, he’s killed a bunch of people.

Um, and he’s set to hang. And, um, the, the interesting thing about it is that like, is that, is that at the beginning of the play, it’s very sort of black and white, but who’s the bad guy and who’s the good guy. And, uh, and throughout the play, um, that sort of dissolves a little bit.

Uh, and that dissolves from the perspective of the audience, but also from the perspective of all of the characters. Um, because there’s this whole and like, you know, hang man, I’m not splitting anything. Um, uh, there’s this, like this idea of like, of capital punishment, of retribution and of, and of all this.

And, and, uh, it starts to get a point where, where people are, where characters in the play are saying, well, what am I doing? That’s different from what this guy did essentially. Um, and, uh, to, to go a little bit off topic with it. Um, when I read the, when I first read the play was it, it was during Ferguson.

It was refugees. It’s been like, it’s, there’s been a lot of cases where people are making the excuse of, of, of authorities have done what they need to do. Um, uh, and, uh, and, and that is sort of, uh, it’s not something that I’ve really like imposed on the play.

It’s just something that I’ve been thinking about while I’ve been, while I’ve been, uh, working on the play, uh, is this idea of, well, they did what they need to do to keep people safe. They did what they need to do. And it’s a, the means justifying the ends, uh, sort of, uh, sort of ideas that, uh, uh, that happened when you’re saying like, oh, well, like I had to do this violent thing because somebody else did a violent thing and I had to stop them.

Right. Yeah. Um, and, uh, um, that’s sort of the rhetoric that the play descends into is, is, is, does do two wrongs make a right to, to, uh, uh, do my actions counter his actions or am I just perpetuating this cycle of violence? Um, uh, when in fact mercy is like the, is, and mercy is the thing that’s talked about a lot in the play as well, uh, is, is the thing that is the one, the one thing that nobody ever thinks to, to use, but the one thing that could end a cycle of violence.

Um, uh, yeah, that’s a plot, right? Right. No, essentially it’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s about, it’s about this guy, uh, this guy, uh, who, who, uh, killed a bunch of people in town, um, who is hung, um, and his neck is broken and he, uh, is, um, left under the gallows, uh, to, uh, to, to rot essentially. Nobody knows that he’s, that he’s died.

And then there’s, uh, um, another criminal that comes along and finds him and, uh, they sort of seek retribution or, um, uh, solace in each other. And, uh, yeah, it’s a, it’s a really interesting sort of like twisted Shrek donkey tale. Uh, if that makes any sense.

Yeah. Uh, I use the terms Shrek and Donkey a lot in rehearsal. Um, how do you feel about the use of Shrek and Donkey to describe, uh, your playing? Yeah.

I mean, I, it’s an incredible film, but also like, yeah, I mean, it’s, you know, it’s, it, it, it, the, it, it’s great to sort of, and again, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the, the creative process, you know, whatever, whatever these guys are doing and just keep doing what they’re doing. You know, are you going to a lot of rehearsals or are you just going, like, have you been to rehearsals or are you just waiting? Like I said, this is, this is actually like kind of the first time that we’ve talked about it since we started rehearsing. Uh, we were supposed to, that could literally happen.

Cause it’s funny. Cause I was thinking like, you know, I find that like, you know, especially if, if I’m, I’m very comfortable with what the play is in terms of the draft. So I think it’s actually really helpful for me not to be there.

Yeah. You know, I find that like, you know, having some playwright guys sitting in the corner, like looking perplexed 24 seven, it’s not conducive to like a really good process. And at the end, I just like, I want, I want, that’s a, that’s a thing.

I want to, when, when, when the thing with the storefront is that like these guys, this community, this great independent theatre can indie, like this indie community they’ve created is, is, is, is driven. It’s creative. It’s, it’s amazing.

So like, I don’t, I don’t have to help do anything. These guys, these guys are, are, are fine. So it’s like, if I’m there, I’m just gonna, I feel like me not being there is actually helpful.

Cause I would just muck it up. Actually I’m thinking, you know, so many times when you’re working on a play, you don’t have the ability to contact the playwright. And so you have to decide in the room, in the rehearsal hall, what does this mean? Which is kind of one of the great exploration processes.

And it’s kind of a cheat to be able to go to the playwright and say, so what does it mean? Whereas instead of having the actors find their meaning. Absolutely. Like I, the, the past two plays that I’ve directed have been by playwrights that I haven’t been able to contact.

I did a Carol Churchill play, and then I did a Claudia Day play. And Claudia Day came to see the show, but, but beforehand, and the thing is I added something huge to, to Trout. Like I added a new character to Trout Stanley.

So with, and, and so Claudia came and saw the play and she came up to the actor, Dan Janot, who played the narrator, my narrator character. And she, she said, oh, hello, surprise human. And but she, you know, like she got it.

She understood. And and that’s sort of like, it’s, that’s sort of my bag with, with directing is like, I want to do a take on the play. Like I want, I don’t want to just be like, here is a really formal staged reading of it.

Like I don’t want to be like, here’s exactly what you could just read and imagine. Right. And, and, and I appreciate the trust that you’ve, that you’ve given me because I’m doing some weird shit with it.

I love hearing that on the podcast. I’m not adding any characters this time, but it’s funny because I mean, and for me, it’s like, it’s also this thing where it’s like, you know, I was, I was an extremely different writer back then. Right.

I’m a very different writer now. So like, you know, I, I would just sit in that rehearsal room and be like, man, I should rewrite that monologue and make it rewrite it. But then I’m like, no, but, but that’s the monologue.

Yeah. If Jay now rewrites it, it’ll be like one line and like crappy or something like, you know, like you just, it’s sort of like, there’s something about this voice that I, that is really exciting to me because it’s like, I’m meeting this dude again for the first time and then seeing these, these great imaginations and the great casting that Danny’s done and the concepts and the vision. It’s like, yeah, man, like I’m, I’m good with all that.

So, you know? Yeah. Um, well it just, um, uh, that’s, that’s the thing that I, I, I just really like about directing is challenges and, and, and find like finding a monologue where you’re like, if I was in the room with the writer, I would be like, can we change this? Can we change this? The only couple of things that change is because I, because I, I cross cast one of the characters. And so I, uh, I was like, Hey, Jason, can we change these pronouns? And basically, and he said, no, I was outraged.

Yeah. Um, he, uh, yeah, he hit me in the head with a bottle. Uh, no, it was fine.

I can’t wait to see that frigging chair because it’s going to be right. Come on. Awesome.

Breakaway chair. Uh, no, there’s no breakaway chair. Um, it’s a surprise.

Um, but, uh, uh, but yeah, uh, like, like a lot of the work that I have done in theatre before I started directing was in new works. Um, I dramaturged, uh, a lot of, uh, Cat Sandler’s works and, and, uh, and I’ve worked with a lot of like new works, uh, uh, with circle snake. I I’ve helped, uh, create new works and the fallback, the, the easy out is, is usually, ah, this isn’t working.

Let’s just change it. Um, whereas, and one thing that I, that I’ve learned that I’ve taken from this, that I’ve translated to the work that I’m still doing with, with that, um, uh, is try to make it work for as long as possible unless it’s, unless, unless you’re like, no, something’s fundamentally wrong. Uh, and, uh, and sometimes you’ll get really interesting decisions out of that.

And sometimes you get like really interesting choices and sometimes you’ll get some of the most, the most interesting parts of your play out of challenges, you know? Um, yeah. Because in a lot of cases you can’t change it. Like absolutely.

It’s not a new work. Yeah. You can’t change it.

The first play that I did was the fucking striker. It was this Carol Churchill play where like the opening monologue is, is herder, boast, beasted, roast, beefeater, uh, daughter could spin, span, spick and span the lowest form of wheat straw into gold. Like, that’s like, like, what is that? What is that? You know? And, uh, and we just had to, those are the lines, those are the lines.

And so we had to be like, all right, let’s make that make sense. Okay. Uh, we did, we did.

Um, and, but that’s the thing is like, is like, that’s like, that was the reason that I did that play was because I, I, I, I had seen it like five years prior and I had read it a bunch of times. And so I had analyzed it enough that I, that I was like, I think I know what voice this play has. Um, but, uh, but that’s the thing is like, is like, we found, I think, uh, in that play, like we found like this, like magic that was like sort of hidden in this play that a lot of people would just gloss over that.

Every review that I read about striker, like previous productions of striker was, Oh, this opening monologue in gibberish, like in, and they, everybody talks about it in gibberish. And it’s like, it’s like what we did was we mind it and we, we made it into a story. And that’s an extreme version of that.

But, uh, but like, I think that with, with all plays, it’s like, give the text a chance, you know, don’t blame the text on your inability to, to, to, to, to seek things out, you know, when you had, uh, when you added the character, um, to the, to the play that you had the character to and the playwright came to see it. Yeah. Aside from, uh, referring to the surprise human did, did they react to that at all? Did they? Okay.

Well, here’s the thing is I wasn’t there. I, I showed up, I showed up like I was working that night. And so I, so I showed up, uh, right as she was leaving, as Claudia was leaving.

And, uh, so all I got was like, she seemed to be in a good mood. That’s all I knew. Well, what I did was the thing is I didn’t add any lines.

I added in this character and that character spoke her stage directions, which if you’ve ever read Trout Stanley, her stage directions are fucking gold. They’re gold. They’re so good.

Uh, and, uh, and there are jokes that she wrote into that play, which are only in stage directions, like the timing of them and the wording of them. It’s like when you’re reading it, you’re like, oh, I get that joke, but how does that translate to when it’s on stage? And so I was like, I don’t want to lose that. And so that’s why, that’s why I kept the stage directions.

Um, and, and so I wasn’t really like what I was doing was not exactly, I wasn’t, I wasn’t taking a square peg and putting it around a hole. I was like, oh, she also wrote these words. Yeah.

And I would like people to see those words, you know, because I know that there’s, there’s been a bunch of instances in the States and I don’t know about here, but where people got the rights to do a show. And then like somebody did a little shop of horrors and was like, you know, it would be great is if we had some Rocky Horror Picture Show in here as well. It would basically like insert stuff that was never there into this play.

Um, and of course the, the, the, the rights holder would go, no. Yeah. And take away the rights to do it.

Yeah. Um, this is obviously not that I had a concern for a second the playwright came to see it and was putting on like a brave face. No, well apparently, apparently, and this is, this, I found out much later is, is that, is that our producers were contacted by the playwright’s agent, um, who hadn’t really talked to the playwright.

Uh, and, and so the agent was like, oh, you can’t do that. I heard about this. And then the player was like, no, it’s fine.

Um, I think that’s what happened. If not, I’m sorry, Claudia Day, please don’t sue me any more than you could already. Um, uh, but what, what the thing was, it’s like, I, what I was putting on stage were the words that she wrote in the script, you know? Um, and, uh, and, and in no way was I, uh, I don’t think that I was disrespecting her words.

I think that I, I, I was like, I really liked this part and I would like more people to see this part as well. Um, like putting, putting Rocky Horror Shows, uh, Rocky Horror Show, like songs into Little Shop Horrors is just like, I want, uh, like, uh, that reeks of like, to me, somebody who is probably producing and in the show. Uh, and it’s like, you know what? I really like this song and I’d love to sing it.

Um, so I don’t know whoever did that show. I’m sure it was great. Jason, you were talking earlier about the desire to rewrite some of the yearbook years ago.

Um, do you, do you ever revisit or are you content to just sort of finish something and like once it’s done, just leave it and not, not fuss with it? Well, that’s the thing. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve done that before. Like I’ve, I’ve rewritten stuff before and sometimes it’s worked out and other times it literally is like, um, I, I think it’s sort of like a, it’s a process thing.

It’s like when I’m writing a play, it’s sort of like, if it, there’s this feeling I get when I, when I, when I don’t believe it or I don’t like it, it’s just, it’s a feeling I get in my, like my chest or my stomach, you know, it’s like, it feels weird. Yeah. So then I’m like, Ooh.

And then I remember like when I, one of the plays that I did was called Gas and it was about the Iraq war. And I remember I saw the production of that. We did it in Banff.

So when I was in Banff for the playwrights colony, I was there for like 10 days. I had like access to all these resources and I messed the play up. Like I literally was just like, I was, there was, I felt so much pressure to be this really great writer at Banff.

And you know, I remember I was sitting at a table and Alastair McLeod was sitting beside me. I’m like, Oh my God. Hello, Mr. McLeod.

And like, I have a British accent. Hello, Mr. McLeod. And, and you know, Oh, I love the chicken fingers.

And I was just like, my God. So I, I, my play was really messed up after Banff I felt because I didn’t believe any of it. And then I remember like I, I, I watched the production of it in Montreal and there’s this one section in the play, which was, it killed me every time I watched it because it was just, it felt so fake to me.

And I was like, this is whole, like I can’t deal with this. And the thing is usually I would just, I could go back and just rewrite it for my own sanity. And while it sits on my computer being seen by no one, at least I know in my belly that this section is okay, but I needed to see.

And then I remember, so after Banff, I felt weird. I saw the production felt weird. And then when it was going to be produced again in Toronto, I rewrote it.

And then I felt better about it. And then I think that having that second opportunity to get it produced gave me the option to other times, if I go back and I’m revisiting a work, it’s, it’s because like, you know, the characters were interesting to me or I want to get a sense of, you know, what, what, what would happen to them now with this sort of slightly different lens and, and that’s it, you know, for that part that sort of made you feel like it wasn’t quite right. How did the performers and the audience feel about it? Do you think that they felt the same way or no, it was fine.

Like it actually, it’s, you know, that thing, it’s like this, it was, it was, it was for me, it was like this, the problem that Game of Thrones is having right now. It’s almost like all the dialogue is exposition, right? The plot is moving so quickly that it’s almost like they’re like, it’s this weird thing where it’s like, so this, it was this entire, this play, the play moved, felt like it was moving. And then all of a sudden I had this one giant section where I just wanted to explain my research.

These are my research lines. It’s all true guys. This is all exposition.

And it literally was like, man, like literally the play was moving and then it stopped moving. It’s like, now this is you trying to, for some reason you’re trying to prove maybe the integrity of the play or the integrity of the research, justifying it. It’s all just exposition.

It doesn’t, and it’s just like everything ground to a halt. So it was sort of like, how do I, you know, so that was, I was like, you know, I got that and the actors are, especially if you have a great director and great actors, they can, they can bail you out, you know, and, and, but in the end it was just, it was just for me. Like I just, I didn’t, I couldn’t, I didn’t like that part.

So I just, I changed it for the next production. It’s funny how research can sometimes not help you, especially when you’re so proud of it. You can be like, I’m doing so much research.

We have to get this on. I’d have to get this on the stage somehow. It’s kind of like a Canadian novelist who like every novel that I’ve ever, I’ve stopped reading his novels because I’m like, well, half of this book is just you explaining your research.

Yeah. Yeah. We, when we just had this podcast come out, how to, how to build a fire.

All right. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah. We, it was Kat and Tom and I sort of like created the story behind that.

Kat wrote it, but we got really heavy into the research of it. My job was the, like for the sci-fi, my job was the sci and Tom’s job was the fi. Basically.

And so I was like, so I was like, oh, like I, so I got like into this like rabbit hole of fracking towns and, and, and again, like, like things on things on fire. And like the fact that like their water lights on fire and they’re like, like there’s YouTube videos of people like opening a tap and like lighting their whole sink on fire because methane comes out with the water. And um, but like, I got so heavy into that, uh, that I was just like, no, we should just make this about fracking towns.

Like instead of this really interesting sci-fi plot that we came up with, let’s just like make this about like the fact that isn’t that crazy that water lights up fire. And they’re like, no, Danny, no, no, we have characters and we have a plot. You also can’t really get that across so much.

It would just be me just going, guys, it’s crazy. It’s fucking nuts. That, that just to talk briefly about, about that, that podcast, um, you don’t see a lot of like audio dramas so much anymore.

There are a few that I’ve heard that are trying to recreate like in a comic way, the, uh, serial like adventure stories of like the, the early radio. Yeah. It’s almost, you almost never hear an audio drama that is serious.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

What was it like, what, how did that particular project come about? Um, well, Koffler approached Kat, uh, and they, they were, they were like, uh, uh, little secret whenever anybody approaches Kat, they approach Kat and Tom and myself. That’s what happens. They don’t know that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, like we, we, we, like Kat, Kat does the writing. She, she, she writes and, and, but Tom and I are her story guys. We, we, uh, we, um, sort of like make sure that everything works story-wise.

We, we, we tend to the machine, I guess. Um, and, uh, so, um, so Kat got approached by Koffler and, uh, and they were like, we really want a podcast that’s written by you. Uh, and we went into this like insane flurry of like, well, what’s popular.

Of course, uh, serial is popular. Um, but you know, we don’t, we can’t recreate a super interesting, like, like weird cold case that is happening in the United States. Um, uh, and what we ended up landing on was we were like, well, let’s just do what we do really well.

Like, let’s, let’s write a play and let’s just adapt it for audio. Like, let’s just do the same thing and we’ll serialize it. And like, it’s, it was sort of the same format that we work in all the time.

Um, but we got to do a lot more with it. Um, uh, Tom and I got to world build a lot more, uh, and, uh, and figure out like what the backstory of everybody is and how this town works and, and, uh, um, and, uh, uh, originally it was going to be a lot more conceptual. It was going to be all found audio.

It was going to be all like picked up from, uh, from, uh, a microphone that’s bugging this person’s house or picked up from, uh, a, uh, this person’s iPhone or blah, blah, blah. And then, and, and, and eventually we were just like, we want to tell this story in the cleanest way possible. And, uh, and, uh, modern audiences, uh, because it’s because the audio book is, or because the, um, the radio play is not something that people are used to breaking the form of it right now is not really something that we should be doing.

So, uh, so we were like, well, let’s just do it like classic radio play style and we’ll do like, like the, the originality of it will come through in our plot and our characters or actors and, and, and, um, and then in our concept. And, uh, um, I think that works. I hope it did.

Well, it’s kind of like you, you’ve got to reintroduce people to the style before you can break it again. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, hopefully that’ll be moving forward. We’ll see.

Um, audio is a, is a kind of a weird medium to work in now. Is it I have to, I have to like lower the volume. Somebody’s going to listen to this on the subway.

I’m like screaming in there. Yeah. Um, it’s actually, it’s interesting because, um, when I think about audio, when I first got like an iPad or sorry, an iPod, I listened to nothing and I discovered podcasts and I don’t listen to music anymore podcasts.

Um, and so it’s, it’s interesting to be able to build on that and give you some, some fiction, which is actually really hard to find. Yeah. Uh, except for some, some people really stare novels as audio books.

In terms of, of, of this play, you were talking about this by being a couple of years old, is, is, uh, how long ago was, uh, was hangman written? Um, it was like 2011, 2012, 2011. Yeah. Um, and you were, we talked a bit about, about the town that’s, that’s on burning for years.

Um, were there, were there other, uh, inspirations that went into, into the play that, that, that you, uh, you recall or did it, would it all sprout out of that, that town? Yeah. I mean, I was, I, I did this, um, the way that I sort of write plays in general was that I, I don’t basically just starts with that image. And then basically it’s just the voice, the character speaking.

So I don’t even have any, there are no set characters. I don’t have a set story. All I know is that there’s this image of this town and I know that this person gets hanged.

Um, and then I started with that. And then the first thing that I wrote was, um, um, the, uh, the scene with Brayden and Alistair in the jail cell. Yeah.

So I wrote that scene and I was like, Ooh, these guys are juicy. Who are these juicy guys? Tell me more. And then I just wrote it.

I literally wrote it like two days. Like I just wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote it. Yeah.

Wow. And then when I had the chance to be at, at Tarragon, then we, then we slowed it down. But usually the impulse is just like, man, I basically write as fast as I can.

I don’t see the characters just emerge literally just as voices. I don’t even know what they look like. And by the time it’s done, I have like 50 pages, but there’s no names.

There’s no, there’s no character names. There’s just voices. There isn’t even a story.

I don’t feel until you read it. Well, there is a story. There was a story the entire time.

So that’s sort of the process. And then for this play was, it was, it was a very similar process. It was, it was driven by the image and it was driven by these, these voices and these characters.

And, and they were very, very vivid to me. So they just couldn’t stop talking. So you’re not a planner.

You don’t like sit down and like plan, don’t do the index card thing. You just sort of sit down. No.

Yeah. Like the way that I, it’s so funny because like, you know, they’re like, oh man, you write plays in like a day or two days, but no, I wrote the play like for a month in my, in my head, in my body. Like I did this thing when I, when I was at national theatre school, it was like, you know, I would, I would have like an idea for a scene or a monologue and I would be like, oh, so stoked to write it down.

But I wouldn’t because it was like, if it’s that good, you’ll remember the scene tomorrow. Yeah, absolutely. And then, and then, and then I won’t.

So now, for example, I do this thing, I write on my phone. So I’m all like, I just write, I write plays on my phone now. I’m like Drake.

I am literally, I am, I’m, I’m like Drake in terms of my process. The Blackberry. The Blackberry is no longer.

Oh my God. And I’m also like, I’m, I’m, I’m also as soft as Drake. I’m, I’m, I’m baby lotion soft.

And it’s just like, and I feel like, and it’s funny, I’m hanging out. I know. And it’s like, it’s true.

And I, and I write, I write on my, and it’s funny because like, you know, I remember one of my, I wrote this, I wrote a new trilogy of plays and it literally is about sort of meeting and just love and relationship and meeting. So I wrote a trilogy of plays. And then the, the first play of that trilogy, I wrote it on my phone at three o’clock in the morning.

But then I only did that because I was thinking about those two forever. And I’m like, on my phone, like I’m in my room on my phone at three AM and my partner is in there with me. She’s like, what are you doing? I’m like, I’m, I’m, I’m writing a play.

Yeah. I’m creating art. Yeah.

I’m sliding into some of the people’s DMS right now. Like clearly, what are you doing up? It’s 3 AM. Like you shouldn’t know about my shady activities, but I was writing a play.

So it’s like, and even though I wrote it really quickly that night and I emailed it to myself, I wrote that play for a while, like a month, two months in my body. Part of me gets, like when you say, you know, I get this idea for a monologue and I don’t write it down. Part of me as a writer just gets, because I’m always like, I, this is an idea and I need to write it down or I could forget it.

But it’s, it’s an interesting thought that like, if it’s good, you’ll remember it. Absolutely, man. Like, like I, I always say like, I do, I do a lot of my writing when I’m either walking around or I’m, I’m, I’m on the streetcar.

When I don’t have the opportunity to write anything down because that’s when like, or, or do anything else. Like when I don’t have external stimulus because, because that’s when I do my thinking and, and it’ll be an idea that pops up and pops up and pops up that like. That’s it.

It’s a relentless thought. Yeah. What I find for myself is movement helps so much.

Like sitting down at a computer or a notebook is only going to get you so far. If you, if you, if you don’t get up and move, your body, your mind stays as sedentary as your body. Yeah.

Sometimes if I get stuck, I’m like, well, gotta be walking for an hour or so. Yeah, absolutely. That’s it.

I’ve, I’ve become obsessed with Tony Robbins because like, he’s, he’s, he’s a fucking genius and I love him. And he has that exact thing where it’s like, you know, motion, motion creates emotion and, and get up and then rev yourself up and like, you know, don’t let fear take hold of you. And I’m, as I watched my ninth Tony Robbins video, like at my desk at work, like dying on the inside, I go, man, Tony, you did it again.

You did it again. Like it’s so good. It’s like fantastic.

So I love it. So you’re, I won’t ask you what it is, but you, you’re a playwright with day job. Like so many of us are, um, you have a desk.

You said that. Are you, do you find, I’m just, I want to be like, so what do you do for a living? Cause I work intact and I have a desk and I spend eight hours, sometimes more of the day, like having to think about something that’s not what I want to be thinking about. Um, and sometimes I’m okay with it.

And sometimes I’m like, fuck, no, absolutely. Yeah. How do you manage the, the, the split life of the, the desk jockey writer? Well, no, I mean, I, I, I, I mean, I, I have like, um, uh, my desktop is actually pretty fun.

Like I, I, I have a, I work for now magazine. So I, I, I, I lead engagement and now, and my job is to basically go out there and engage the community and engage clients, et cetera. So it’s a really fun job.

So now all my plays are about me working in that magazine. What’s your plan? What’s your plan? It’s about me having a meeting at Costco. It was phenomenal.

Uh, the sequel is about me at Leon’s and it’s like, Holy J. Like, I know it’s like, it’s called like, it got five and it had to, it had to, it’s like, what are you going to do? How can you give me any less? I see you every Thursday. So it’s like, it’s like, so it’s funny cause I, I, I, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, for me it’s sort of like, you know, how do you build sort of a really fun, just creative life that touches all other aspects of what you do? Yeah. So it’s like, if you can do that and, and, and, and still feel like you want to, you know, be creative and write, then that’s a, that’s a really amazing thing.

And I, and I do, I still, I still love writing. Yeah. That’s so important.

So, so it’s important that you like, enjoy your job because when you’re, if your job makes you die inside, my job doesn’t, I want to make sure for my coworkers, my boss, I actually really love my job. Just there are days, there are always days, you know, there’s days. Anyway, now that the cover your ass is done.

I cram myself to sleep every night, man. That’s just my life in general, man. It’s like when you’re on the streetcar and you’re thinking and you’re writing, it’s like, it’s like, could you imagine like just being on the streetcar and like, I’m like, you’re writing hangman in your hand.

You’re like, Oh God, what a bad day for that dude. And now I got to write it down. Like that guy had a really bad day.

That’s great. Sorry, Alistair. I know.

It’s like, man. I sort of like, you were talking about writing that, that play on your phone. See, I’m a, I’m not a great thumb typer.

Right. I do not do well. Like I keep trying to be better typing on my phone, but I think it’s fascinating.

Touchscreen is so hard, but I can’t like the touchscreen just fucks me up. I’m the same way, man. Have you obviously had some kind of trick that you’ve learned to, for the phone typing? Oh man.

Like, you know, I’ve just like, you know, it’s like, I’m, I live on my phone, man. Do you keep predictive text on when you turn it off? It’s off, but it gives suggestions. Right.

But it’s funny cause like, you know, it’s like, you know, I’ll be like working on my play and then sending a DM and then sending a mass text and then sending an email. It’s like, like I I’m obsessed with my phone and writing plays and Instagram. Like I just, it’s like, it’s, it’s my home away from home, man.

Don’t take it away from me. Yeah. Notes, notes.

Yeah. Just notes. I just write on notes and then I email it to myself.

That’s crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

I’m always like, what app for writing plays. That’s actually like, like why you need to format it when you’re just writing it. I have an app where it’s like, I speak into it and it writes it down and I get a British accent.

Oh, you know, the thing with the writing, like speaking into it and writing it down, they only have like, the ones that I’ve done, it’s like, you talk for like a minute and then it’s like, wait. Yeah. Oh yeah.

I’m like, that doesn’t help me. I need to be able to talk for like five to 10 minutes. I need a secretary.

I want a robot secretary. That’s what I want. I do want a robot secretary so I can just dictate stuff.

Siri, be better. Do better. So Hangman opens.

May the 13th. It opens on Friday the 13th. Oh my gosh.

So good. Storefront in Toronto, Bloor in Delaware, 955 Bloor Street. Yeah.

The storefront has been fostering a very interesting indie scene for the past three, four years. And I’m fortunate enough that they’ve sort of gotten behind me this year. Sexy Raps, me doing Sexy Rap was actually accidental.

It was because Sexy Raps asked me, but the storefront has gotten behind me. They have a play that I’ve written that is going up as part of their playwrights unit. They’re pushing me for this.

It’s a breeding ground for new ideas and it’s really great what they’re doing. And hopefully when Hangman goes up, it proves that. This has been great.

Are you guys on Twitter? Yeah. I’m not on Twitter. How are you not on Twitter? I can’t be on my phone that much and be on Twitter.

I would torch my life. So just Instagram for you. Yeah.

Just Instagram. Do you actually have an Instagram account that you post or are you just a lurker? I post. I post.

Mostly lurk. This is the greatest interview ever. All my shit’s on blast, man.

I don’t mind. I don’t mind, man. Will you share your Instagram? Yeah.

Jmagnoy. M-A-G-H-A-N-O-Y. And on Twitter? Twitter, I’m at Spoonydan.

S-P-O-O-N-Y-D-A-N. It’s a nickname that I got in theatre school. And on Instagram, I’m at Danquo.

Like Banquo, but with a D. With a D. Because as much as there are a lot of people out there that say that I hate Shakespeare, I actually love Shakespeare. We’ll talk about that at some point. We’ll talk about both that and Spoonydan, but this has been great.

Thank you so much, guys. Thank you so much.