Amanda Cordner, Christina Bryson & Caire Burns talk about Divine at Summerworks

DIVINE, performed by an all female cast, takes place in a dystopian Ontario: The Great Lakes are bone dry and the boreal forest has vanished under extreme arid heat. Bandits roam the desolate landscape searching ruined towns for the vanished element now sacred on the lips of women: water. Narrated by one of the only children left in the world, DIVINE follows a pair of scavengers searching for a mysterious water diviner, who’s rumoured to be able to talk to water, but they’re not the only ones…

DIVINE meshes art with activism while exploring a catastrophic future that feels all to imminent alongside current headlines decrying groundwater contamination, water advisories, and industrial pollution (particularly the current local drama surrounding the Nestle plant in Guelph).

DIVINE has partnered with the World Wildlife Fund’s Freshwater Program and the Wellington Water Watchers in the hopes of bringing greater audience awareness to the important cause of water right

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Transcript

Welcome to episode 88 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy features conversations with Canadian theatre makers, from actor to director to playwright and more.

If you’re listening for the first time and you like what you hear, I’d love it if you’d subscribe to the podcast. You can find Stageworthy on Apple Podcasts, Google Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. And whether you’re a new listener or you’ve been listening for a while, please consider leaving a comment or rating.

Your ratings and comments help new listeners find the And if you want to drop me a line, I would love to hear from you. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter at StageworthyPod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. My guests this episode are Amanda Kordner, Christina Bryson, and director Claire Burns from the Storefront Theatre and the Redwood Theatre Collective’s presentation of Divine, on now with the 2017 edition of the SummerWorks Festival in Toronto. So can I just have everybody say their names and what they’re doing in the play? It’s Divine? Mm-hmm, yes.

Everybody could take a turn. Yes, Amanda Kordner, and I will be playing Penn. I’m Claire Burns, I’m directing.

I’m Christina Bryson, and I’m playing Marion. And what is Divine about? Okay, well, Divine is a post-apocalyptic Western. It takes place in Ontario without water, and it follows the story of the last diviner, somebody who can find water, divining water.

And she, played by Amanda, is being hunted by these scavengers, and also by an evil preacher who’s hell-bent on revenge. Revenge? Yes. Is it giving away too much to ask what kind of revenge? No, we can’t.

But think of it as like Mad Max meets the good, the bad, and the ugly. All right, all right. Yeah, it’s all women in the cast and crew and everything like that.

Yeah, entirely women. It’s awesome, it’s awesome. We don’t get that very often.

No, not at all. A lot of dudes, a lot of dudes. Especially with Westerns.

Especially with Westerns. And it’s, a while back I was talking with Sex T-Rex, and they did a Western, you know, they did Watch Out Wildcat. And that entirely came from the fact that Caitlin couldn’t think of a, like, what was a Western heroine? And those don’t happen very often.

So where did the play come from? So that’s, the play came from the mind and imagination of Natalie Fregia, and she is a playwright, and she’s also doing her PhD in Theatre and Environmental Studies. So the play really marries this important issue of water conservation and sustainability with this, like, overtly theatrical genre of the Western. So it came from her mind.

Yeah. And it was a part of the Storefront Playwright Unit last year that was curated by Emma Mackenzie Hillier. And so they, we had a week of sort of a festival of having a reading every night, and then this play was chosen to get fully produced.

Were any of you involved in that initial reading? Yes, I was. Were you really? Yeah. Oh, I didn’t know that.

Did you play the same role? Nice. Well, I was hoping a year ago, I was like, please, please consider me if this goes to production. Yeah.

And I was considered, I auditioned, so I auditioned for it. Well, you have the advantage of, like, having, like, been the first person to say those words. Yes, true.

It was pretty cool. We’ll take a second before we talk a whole lot more about the play. I’m really curious about everybody’s experience in theatre.

Why did you decide to go into theatre? What were your, like, what drew you into it? Okay, well, I was a very fat kid growing up, and I was put into every activity you can imagine. Soccer, skating, dance, and I would do it for a short period of time and then give up. And then my mom put me in my first play at 10, and I knew that was where I was supposed to be.

Because even though I was fat and they didn’t have costumes that fit me, I played a banker, and my suit wouldn’t close across my chest, and the pants were so tight, I was supposed to be in, like, a suit. My slacks were supposed to be, like, slacks. It was super tight, and I didn’t care.

I walked on that stage, and I’ve been in love ever since. Do you remember what that play was? Yes, Sunshine Sketches of Mariposa. I played Mr. Mullins.

So after you did that play, you knew you wanted to do it. Hell yeah. Did you take any convincing that you could make, that you could do this for a living? Did it take convincing? Like, was there anybody that said, no, you can’t do it? No, no.

Awesome. My parents, like, I mean, they’re more, they’re movie buffs, my parents. So as soon as they were, as soon as I told them I wanted to be in it, they were like, yeah, of course.

But I think once I graduated from university, I went to school. I went to York University for theatre. Then my mom got concerned.

And she was sending me job postings for, you know, government jobs. You know, then you can do theatre on the side. No, mom, stop telling me to do it on the side.

It will never be on the side. Did that start after graduation? After university. Through university, she was all like, go for it.

Yes, she was there at every show, like, yeah. Because I’ve talked to people whose parents were always like, you know, they said they wanted, they started to go to university, they’re like, wouldn’t accounting be better? Almost never has somebody like gone home until the graduation. And actually, pretty recently, last year, I was offered a full, full time contract at the Science Center.

And I was talking to my mom on the phone, and she was like, that’s amazing. My dad came on the phone. He was like, don’t let anything get in the way of your dream.

And I didn’t, I refused it. Yeah, I turned it down. Well, I mean, that’s the full time job can be.

Yeah, exactly. Um, I yeah, I got the acting bug around the same time when I was 10. I was cast as Fagan.

And all through high school, and then when I went to university, I was 19. And I think I was just, I was really intimidated at the audition process. So I actually ended up going to university for history and political science.

Cool around year two, I was like, I want to drop out and go to theatre school. My parents were like, never. They were like, really against it.

So I finished university doing like a bunch of Hart House. I went to U of T. So I did a bunch of shows at Hart House musicals. And then after I was done, university was sort of the time when a lot of my other friends that were really close to me were in theatre.

And so then I started to get like, jealous. And I was just like, you know what, I cannot be the kind of person who lives with regrets. So I was like, I need to try to pursue this.

So I auditioned for theatre school. And then I got into George Brown. So I went to George Brown for three years.

And during that time, also, my parents trying to dissuade me. And, you know, I bless my mom, she’s told me that I’m her biggest worry in life. Because of my career choice.

But everything is fine. I’m really happy. And you’re brilliant.

Thank you. I live a charmed and very fulfilling life. So yeah.

When you were at George Brown, were you, was that at the Young Center or was that pre-Young Center? That was at the Young Center. Yeah. So part of the reason why I chose to go there was because of its connection with Soulpepper and the proximity to Soulpepper.

And since then, I’ve been really fortunate to get to know some of the folks at Soulpepper. I was also, I was running the storefront theatre for the last like three and a half years. And so we’ve done co-productions with those guys there.

And which is kind of felt like a, like a coming home to a certain extent, because I’m like, oh, back in the building, going and seeing my old teachers and stuff. But also as a professional being kind of across the hall. I was at George Brown when it was in the old warehouse.

Oh, yeah. Warehouse at King and River. Yeah.

So, you know, George Brown. I know George Brown. I know George Brown.

She’s going down. She’s going down at George Brown. Well, there’s a regime change happening right now.

Regime change. From what I’ve heard. I mean, obviously that warehouse was a long time ago.

So I was there a long time ago, but you know, we hear things when we’re in our 27th year of being a graduate or whatever. Yeah. I remember graduating and I’d be like, yeah, I’m a 50 year now.

Cause you just like go back for stuff, but you, we hear things. Yeah. So yeah.

Regime change probably really important there. Yes. Um, yeah, I kind of fell into it by accident around the same time, 10, 12 ish, because my little sister was such a imaginative child, like super cute, but like living in her own world and like talking to her hands all the time.

And like, my parents were like, all right, put this kid in drama classes. Like cause we went to camps all summer. So I randomly went to a musical theatre camp cause she was going to a similar one and the rest is history as they say.

Um, so I was doing that. And then I went to an Ottawa category for arts high school. I was doing that all the way through.

I loved it. And then at the end, when it comes time to apply for university, I got the, like, I can’t actually like do this. Like what a silly thing to try to pursue.

And like, I love it, but let’s be realistic. And so I went to university for a year at Ryerson for like a general arts and contemporary studies it’s called. And then the year away from it was just like, what, what, why am I not like, I had a really good friend on my floor who was in the program.

He would talk about it. And like, I was just like, I don’t want to be doing that. Like, why am I not pursuing what I love and am good at while I’m like young and able to do it? You know, like I figured I was smart enough.

If, if fallouts fails later, I’ll figure something out. Yeah. And then I went to university of Windsor, um, for my BFA.

And I also took an arts management course on the side to try to balance it out that way and get, get into that side. So I’ve been producing a little bit with the stroke run and with a company I had for a couple of years also. Um, yeah.

Do you have a sense of, of what gave you those cold feet at graduation? Like here you were doing Yeah. I don’t know. I guess it’s just the, like, and my parents were super supportive.

Like they still have the questions like, Oh, is this job paying you? Are you getting paid for this play? But they really are supportive of us following our dreams. So it wasn’t really them. You just kind of get this cold feet of like, I felt like I had to grow up now.

I had to stop doing the, like, you know what I mean? You have to be realistic. Yeah. You can’t do the fun thing all your life.

Like I gotta be an adult now. I got to figure something out. That’s going to make me money.

Good thing the theatre is still lucrative. Yeah. And I remember my, uh, my favorite, my like teacher in, in high school that had a big impact on me.

He like wrote in my yearbook. He was like, whether it’s one year or five years, I’ll be here when you come back, like when you’ve changed your a few months later, I’m like, what did I do? Yeah. Um, so the storefront, um, has been, I mean, so many great things have come out of the storefront and, uh, you know, and the partnership a few times with, with soul pepper, um, storefront losing its space, um, was sort of a blow to the indie theatres as all of these, um, indie spaces keep getting knocked down.

Um, obviously storefront is still doing things, which is great. Um, and that I assume is going to continue. Yeah.

Yeah. So we have like a couch crashing season as we’re calling it. So some, uh, starting with tough Jews, which happened in April, then the summer work show.

Um, we are really strongly looking at the possibilities of doing another production of shafts gallery in December. Then we’re doing a co-production at factory in February. Um, and then we’ll be doing, uh, what’s called the feminist bucket fest in April, um, which is like a, a, a festival for female created work.

I would, I love that name. I’m sorry. I don’t know.

We don’t have to great. Um, I would, uh, just for the record, I would see shafts gallery every year. I think it’s the next holiday classic.

Honestly, it could be, you know, salt pepper does the Christmas Carol every year. I would see shafts gallery. Yeah.

Well, that’s been, when it was conceived, that was the concept was to have it be the storefronts Christmas show, you know? And so, yeah, so we’re, we’re trying to bring it back. We’re trying to bring it back. So if there’s any funders listening to produce a show, get ahold of me, Claire B at the storefront theatre.

Is there a long-term plan to find, obviously you want to find a space again. Yeah. So the space issue, it’s just, it’s more complicated than when we originally got the space.

So in order to, um, pay everybody to have a sustainable business model, we really need to have a liquor license and a bar. Um, cause alcohol revenue will be generating like a quarter of our, um, over overall operating budget. Do actors drink? So it’s a matter of coming up with, um, the capital costs that it will cost to purchase either, um, a liquor license.

So if you’re like taking over an old space, then you have to pay usually it’s about $50,000 to adopt somebody else’s liquor license, or it’s a matter of retrofitting, like an old storefront and putting the bar in, which of course, then you have to meet, uh, Ontario building code. You have to meet, uh, licensing and bylaw regulations. So it’s just, it’s, it’s not as, unfortunately, because we want to get paid and you know, like that kind of thing, it can’t happen as fast as I think the community wants it to happen.

Oh, the community wants it to happen yesterday. We’ve lost this space. We’ve lost other spaces and storefront produced so much good work.

Have you ever seen the staircase theatre in Hamilton? I haven’t, but I’ve heard lots about it actually. Exactly what you’re describing. Yeah.

So yeah. If only there was a space like that. Yeah.

And we’re looking for like Chicago has some great models that we’re looking at as well, sort of, um, emulating that. And, uh, you know, unit one or two just opened a new space, you know, one or two in Leroy street theatre. They just opened a new space in parking to Parkdale.

So they’re back on the map. I did not know that. Yeah.

It’s amazing. Yeah. It’s great.

It’s like, just, uh, just east of Queen and Sororin. Nice. Yeah.

That’s beautiful. That’s great. Um, back to divine.

You’ve told me about your characters, uh, or you’ve told me the names of your characters. What can you tell me about the characters that you play? Well, um, Penn is a lost soul and paying for the sins of her father. And she’s trying to right her wrongs and hopefully save humanity.

I’m such a Western. I’m like, yep. She’s the woman with no name.

That is so awesome. Yeah. That is awesome.

Um, Marion is the bartend dress. There’s no water, but there’s don’t worry. There’s whiskey still.

No worries. Um, she’s, she’s sassy and fun, but she’s also one of the only characters in a skirt. So she’s a little more of the femme side of things.

Um, and there may or may not be some chemistry between Penn and Marion. Can we talk about the importance of the, of everybody involved in this show being a woman? Um, and, uh, did it ever consider not doing that or how did it come about that you made sure that that’s how it was going to work? Um, well, it happened that everybody who was the best in the auditions for the parts were women. And so once we had that conversation, myself and the playwright and the associate director, um, we decided that we were going to make the conscious choice to cast women also in sort of rebellion to the genre itself, which normally is a real male dominated male gaze sort of, um, genre.

Um, and then I thought to myself, okay, well, if we’re putting together a company of women, wouldn’t it be interesting, an interesting experiment to also put together the crew and the design team of women and see if we can create just a different sort of experience for all of us involved. Because, you know, theatre is still a male dominated, like, you know, performance art. And so I was just selfishly, like, I was just kind of like, if I get to put together the team, I’m like, oh, I just want to work with a bunch of like ladies.

Like, will that change the atmosphere? Like, it’s hard to say. Cause I don’t really, it’s been such a positive experience. Like I’m, I’m like, oh, I don’t know if how it would have been different if we had men in the room necessarily.

Um, but I just, I think of like the patriarchy is sort of being like this, like top down sort of, uh, you know, so the director is like at the top of the pyramid and everyone else sort of falls under. And for me, it’s definitely, I’ve been approaching the play more of like a cyclical, like, um, yeah, collaborative approach. So it’s not my way, the highway kind of thing.

And everybody has, I really wanted to make sure everybody had a voice in the room because that was really important. The women felt like they had voices. I mean, obviously you can’t compare how this play would be if there were, if there were men in the room, but you’ve been involved with other shows where there’s the mix of men and possibly more men than women.

How does it feel in the rehearsal hall to just aside from the communal nature of the rehearsal process? Is it a different feeling in the room than when, than when there are, there are men present? I have to say, I haven’t been that conscious of it really. It’s kind of just like what it is. Um, but I do feel heard more and it’s not that in every room with a man, I don’t feel heard.

Like people are people, but we, and me specifically have a tendency to like shy away from being assertive or feeling like you can speak up about certain things or yeah. But I haven’t really like consciously just kind of been like, these are the people that I’m working with and they’re all lovely. Um, um, at the beginning of this process, I had my own thoughts about it.

Um, whether it would be difficult, um, to work with a cast of all women, cast and crew. Um, not that I was worried about it, but it did come to my mind just what it would be like. Cause I’ve never, I’ve never worked, um, with all, all lady cast and crew and, but it has been a positive experience and, um, collaborative and yeah, I do feel heard as well.

Definitely been like in empowering, especially, um, being, getting to do a bunch of fight choreography and stage combat, which typically we don’t get to do as much or we don’t get to do the like really fun stuff as much. Obviously it happens, but so it’s, it’s been really like, it’s like amped me up to be on stage with 10 women just like kicking asses. It’s real brawl.

It’s not silly bitch slaps or whatever. It’s real like punches and head butts. Yeah.

It’s next level. Have you done a lot of stage combat before? Or did you come in with, with like no experience at it? I’ve thrown a punch for sure. Yeah.

But not like this. Okay. Yeah.

I’ve gotten thrown and gotten slapped thrown to the ground and stuff. And I’ve done some like sword play kind of for fun or for whatever, but definitely not this level. Yeah.

Yeah. We have an amazing fight choreographer named Louisa Zhu. And she’s coming and we have a great fight captain who’s in, in the production named Annie, Annie Yao.

And, uh, and so their collaboration has been awesome. Just keeping us all on our toes. And Louisa is like a ball of energy and just so tough.

Like she’s so tough. It’s, it’s, it’s been, I am like, like really excited about all the fights. Like when we do fight day, I’m like, fight each other.

It’s awesome when it comes together, right? It’s awesome when it comes together. Um, were you nervous going into the fights? I was nervous. I was nervous about the safety, but not nervous about doing it.

I was ready. Yeah. I’m ready.

Yeah. Couldn’t wait. Um, but Louisa and Annie have been very diligent and, uh, they supervise, well, Annie supervises our fights.

Uh, we have fight calls almost every day and, um, I, I feel safe and I always check in with my partner who I’m punching, um, whether or not she feels safe as well. So that’s been, I’m glad that that note has been pushed. Yeah.

Of course. And I think I, if I can just speak to that conscientious energy, like I know there are, there are a lot of, um, male actors who are that conscientious, but I feel like women do have almost like an extrasensory awareness and commitment to the other people’s wellbeing in a way that sometimes with a mixed cast, I find that, um, different people’s like egos can kind of come up and down and their wants and needs can kind of come to the forefront. Whereas I really feel like there’s a symbiosis within the group itself where everybody is concerned and caring for each other, which maybe is like, um, maybe it’s like a, a gender sort of norm that I want to throw out the window to a certain extent, but it is, it it’s kindness and it’s, it’s yeah.

Compassionate. When you’re doing fight choreography though, when you’re doing stage combat, that kind of thing is, is really important though. You don’t want like egos or, or, uh, machismo getting in the way of like somebody getting hurt because it’s so easy for that to happen.

So, uh, I’d rather fight with chicks because most guys would be like, cause they don’t mind if sometimes if it’s, if it’s not really careful, they don’t mind if that punch goes a little close. Yeah. Yeah.

There can be a little bit more of that renegade energy and not to say that that doesn’t influence, like we have that energy in spades as a cast, but it’s just in this particular, you know, with the fights, like I really do feel like there is that attention to detail, which is great. How, how has it been mixing? Cause a lot of times, you know, somebody says to me, this is a piece exploring environmental. I do roll my eyes a little bit.

Um, I have, sometimes I will, I have preconceived notions. So taking that and marrying it to the Western stroke of genius, because, you know, if you start off by saying, we’re going to talk about the, the environment, people put the Western in there. Um, but how has it been confronting the issue alongside of the fiction? I mean, what I just love so much about this play is that it’s like, it is a fiction play.

So like you could really come into it with no preconceived notion that it, that we’re actually trying to attack any issue at all, but you could come away from it. I think be questioning and being like, huh, that took place in Ontario. Whoa.

What if we did run out of water? And then hopefully we have, I mean, I know we do, but hopefully the audience member can look at the resources that we provide, um, from our, our different, uh, environmental partners to maybe try to make a conscious decision in their lives to change, you know, change the way that they’re behaving. That’s like how I see the marrying happen. Um, but what was your question? I think you answered it.

Yeah. Yeah. Cause it’s not like, it’s not an issue.

It’s not an issue at all. It’s like, it’s like a Harry Potter, like the given circumstance that just is, there’s no time really spent talking. There’s hints and stuff, but it’s not like this happened because this evil corporation, this, you know what I mean? It’s just like, Oh, we’re in the action.

There’s this sort of other like spiritual level to it at the same time. And the Western and fantastical, fantastical. Yeah.

That’s of course what you’re describing is exactly what I am afraid of when somebody, you know, it sounds like it’s going to be an issue. We’re going to take a sledgehammer, but this sounds like just kind of fun. It’s super fun.

It’s so fun. Um, so have you guys, uh, done some works productions before? No, I have. Yeah.

Um, what have you, what have you done before? Um, we did a show called the sad and cautionary tale of smack headed Peter a couple of years ago. Um, yeah, you probably didn’t see it. No, it was great.

It was great. We’re just some amazing actors. Um, but that was, that was a few years ago and haven’t done anything since.

Yeah. Did you direct that? No, I was an actor. Oh, lovely.

Yeah. I played a prostitute who actually gets killed by her boyfriend. So it’s kind of a different opposite.

Um, so how do you like, what’s the, the summer experience? I mean, no, it hasn’t, the festival hasn’t started yet, but you know, as, as you get closer to it, there’s always, you know, you start to get a sense of, of, of how it’s like, how’s the experience been so far? Uh, for me, it’s been really great because, uh, the executive director, the artistic executive of summer works, Laura nanny is very supportive of the project. I feel like she is taking her and her team are taking a really important stance, which is caring for the artists and caring for the artistry of the projects themselves. So I felt very supportive, supported through the process.

They’ve, they’ve been very good with, um, teaching, um, us about producing, which is great marketing, how to fundraise. Um, the steps along the way have been really clear. So whatever they’re doing, I’m very impressed.

And I hope that they, I hope that it shows through box office revenue for every company and, uh, just for audience. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

It’s very organized. It’s important to be, uh, supportive in that way, in a festival, um, to make sure that everybody has the tools that they need. Cause a lot of times people come in and they don’t necessarily have those.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, marketing.

It’s one of those things, like they never tell us about that at theatre school. They don’t tell us about that. Um, did you, Claire, did you learn producing? Like you learned on the job? Uh, yeah.

Yeah. I was, I actually produced, um, like, uh, the first play that I wrote, uh, in 2012. And so I self produced that with a friend of mine, uh, Brett Haynes, and then working at storefront, I just learned, picked up more and more and more about producing more and more, more about marketing, um, how to access audiences.

And yeah, it’s, it was like a crash course essentially. And it still has been because I was still, I’m still figuring stuff out, like working with a production manager who, you know, who keeps the money, who, you know, how the budget is disseminated and all that stuff. It’s still, it’s still a learning curve.

I think we’ve done a good job though, for, uh, press and, um, you know, graphic design. And so I have a, now I have an idea of like how early the rollouts need to be and everything like that. So yeah, it’s, it’s going well.

Yeah. I wish they would teach that stuff in theatre school. Totally.

They really must. Well, because it’s become more part of the trajectory of the theatre career to produce your own work. And see, even in my like arts management court, like certificate, it was half of them was that you just had to take all these business courses, but of course those are for multi gajillion dollar corporations and how to run those.

And I don’t know or care. And like, even the arts management was useful, but it was like how to run the Stratford festival. It’s like, okay, not there yet.

Like what about the rest of us that are like very small or getting more to medium? And what’s that step? Like for me personally, going from my own, like little theatre company with a few friends that did a few good shows to going to the storefront, which is another step up. And there were more hands in the pot and more structures. We were figuring out the structure in place and yeah.

Maybe we could teach them. Yeah. They really should teach it because those are, those are things that we need.

I mean, you should probably offer a course in that. Yeah. Um, some of the things that I wanted to talk about today.

Um, if there was something that you guys wanted somebody to take away from divine, whether it’s the message, whether it’s, um, the all women, uh, production team and cast, whether it’s, um, damn, I just had a good time. Like, is there anything that you would want people to take away from it? I personally, I just want people to be like, that was so cool. Yeah.

And then I want them to take their program home with them and be like, what was that? And then read the playwright note or look at our partners and think about water and think about their experience with water. And, you know, Oh, I went to Lake Ontario last week, or I went to Sandbanks or I went to Georgian Bay. What would that be like if we didn’t have any water and then have them be really conscious of that and look into some of the, the, the more, you know, the, the national issues that we should really be considering, you know, about our groundwater, about the sale of our groundwater to corporations about, uh, lack of regulations around polluting our, our fresh, fresh bodies of water.

Um, you know, our own consumption of water bottles, you know, that kind of thing. That’s definitely something for me that I’ve taken away from this play. I don’t buy water bottles, bottles of water anymore.

What about you guys? Education through entertainment. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Slip it in there. Leave super entertained.

Go home a little, a little bit more knowledge than you came in with. No, it would make my heart smile. It’s kind of this thing about this with Huxley, but like seeing some low girl coming out and going, yeah, I can be the hero too.

Yeah. That would be cool. Yeah.

Yeah. Kind of a wonder woman effect. Yeah.

Or little boy or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, or that we don’t have to think about like, that it doesn’t have to be a thing that it’s all women. Like how many plays are all men and it’s just what it is.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. But that’s because so many of the plays are all men and that’s what it is.

Right. That’s the norm. Right.

But we should talk about this. Like it’s the norm, right? Hopefully one day we’ll have to have a conversation. Yeah.

That we point out. Exactly. Not to say all women.

Yeah. But I think it’s important that we do now. Oh, totally.

Yes. Well, I know that you guys have to, some of you have to go to work. So thanks so much for talking with me today.

It’s been a lot of fun. Thank you.