Kat Sandler & Donna-Michelle St. Bernard

Kat Sandler
Kat Sandler is a writer, director and the Artistic Director of Theatre Brouhaha. She has directed twelve of her original plays in the last six years, including Toronto Best of Fringe hits Bright Lights, Punch Up and Help Yourself (winner of the New Play Contest), Delicacy(Summerworks Spotlight Award), and Liver, Cockfight and Retreat (Storefront Theatre). Other directing credits include Big Plans, 27 Wagons Full of Cotton, Cabaret, and The Goat, or Who is Sylvia. She was a member of the Tarragon Playwrights Unit, where she developed, Mustard (Dora Mavor Moore Award, Outstanding New Play) and is currently the Canada Council Playwright in Residence at Tarragon. She was the 2015 recipient of NOW Magazine’s Audience Choice Award for Best Director and Best Playwright. Kat is a graduate of the Queen’s University Drama Program.

Twitter:@katsandler
Instagram: ksandler24

Donna-Michelle St. Bernard
Donna-Michelle St. Bernard aka Belladonna the Blest is an emcee, playwright, administrator and agitator. She has worked as a dramaturge with Keith Barker, Celia Green, Fiona Rae Clarke, Camila Diaz Varela, Joseph Tisiga, Tylor Pennock and The Movement Project. DM is emcee in residence at Theatre Passe Muraille and playwright in residence at lemonTree Creations. Upcoming: Forbidden with Afarin Mansouri for Tapestry

54ology.wordpress.com
Twitter: @BelladonnaNHP

Bang Bang
A white playwright uses the shooting of an unarmed young Black man by a police officer as a “jumping off point” for his hit play that is soon to be adapted into a major movie. As Hollywood comes knocking for the writer, he makes a surprise visit to the home of the officer involved. With Sandler’s trademark wit, BANG BANG traces the impact of what it means to be inspired by true events. Bang Bang runs January 27–February 18, 2018 at Factory Theatre.

Tickets:https://www.factorytheatre.ca/2017-18-season/bang-bang/
Twitter:@FactoryToronto
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FactoryTheatreTO/

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http://www.stageworthypodcast.com
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Transcript

Welcome to episode 112 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre, featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.

If you’re new to the podcast, I hope you’ll subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Music, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like the podcast, please consider leaving a comment or rating. Your ratings help new people find the show.

If you want to drop me a line, you can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter at stageworthypod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you’re looking for me, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter at philrickaby, and my website is philrickaby.com. My guests this week are Kat Sandler and Donna-Michelle St. Bernard. Kat is the playwright and director of Bang Bang, and Donna-Michelle was her dramaturge. Bang Bang is on until February 18th at the Factory Theatre in Toronto.

Can you tell me about Bang Bang? Yeah, so on like a larger level, it’s about the impact of being inspired by true events and what kind of responsibility, if any, we as artists have in storytelling in the process of creating stories. Sure. That’s the kind of macro, the bird’s eye view.

Okay. And then plot-wise, it’s about a white playwright who reads about a shooting in a newspaper in which a black female police officer shoots an unarmed black boy. And he uses that as a jumping off point for a play that he writes and is staged.

Okay. And that play is then optioned by a major American studio, and the star of the movie wants to meet the person that they think the play is based on. And of course, the female cop has no idea that there is a movie.

So it all kind of verges on the living room of this female cop and her mother in one delicious, awkward, horrible bunch of minutes. Does the cop know about the play? Yes. Okay.

Yes. But not that… But not that it’s going to be told on a much bigger scale. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s icky. All kinds of icky. It is.

Good icky. You kind of really like sitting in the awkwardness. I do.

I do. I think that that’s kind of where we are able, using that kind of awkward humor to examine some serious stuff is good. It’s a good use of it.

Makes things accessible, but also good icky. But I mean, it is good icky. And there’s a lot of drama that comes out of some ick.

I’ve squirmed at a couple of your shows, probably. Good. In the way that you want me to.

Yeah. But it’s like… I think you’ll squirm in a different way in this one. Okay.

Okay. What do you think will be different about the way that I’ll squirm in this one? I think it just tackles some really hard stuff a bit more head on than I think. I think in a lot of stuff that I’ve done in the past, it’s hidden a little bit more.

Like Bright Lights is loosely about sexual assault, but it’s just very funny alien support group stuff. And here, it’s kind of hard to look away from the issue because it’s right there on stage. Yeah.

Yeah. I think just some of your other work that I’m familiar with, the awkward feeling is like, I’m so sorry for those people. I wish I could jump in there and save them.

And this is more like, I have no desire to be there. I’m going to let this person hang himself. I’m going to let you have this one.

I’m going to sit here. This feels awkward. I don’t desire to be in there.

What’s interesting is I could almost say that in Late Night, I did not want to jump in and save any of those people. It was like watching a play where people are playing out their personal drama on stage and you’re just squirming so much because people are revealing too much. Yeah.

This is definitely the next step up in Squirmtown. Squirmtown. In Squirmtown, for sure.

But I think it’s also, I mean, you like, yeah. Yeah. I lost that thread.

That’s okay. Donna, you’ve done Michelle with Donna, Michelle. Super easy about it, man.

Super easy about it. All right. Donna, what was your role in like, how did you help to bring Bang Bang to where it is now? I helped by making everything harder.

Yeah. I came on as a dramaturg and I think that the plan was for me to make Kat feel as squirmy as she makes you feel. And I hope that I’ve done that at some point.

And then we moved through that period. That’s a good thing. I like you so much.

It’s a good thing I feel similarly. Yeah. This could have honestly, this could have really- This could have gone very badly.

Sucked. Like really sucked. But it was honestly, I think having Donna on this has been, like, there’s no, there was no one better.

Oh, that’s really nice. It’s been a really weird thing because I think, as you were reminding me the other day, that I walked into our first meeting like, hey, what’s up? I don’t care. You’re going to hate me.

Let’s do this. And Kat was like, oh, well, that’s a shame. I thought we could have a nice drink together.

I don’t do nice drinks. You do really. Yeah, I do.

And I was lying about everything. Yeah. But I think I came in here wanting Kat not to expect, like, token participation from me.

But I’m actually very nice to work with. So within a week, Kat was like, okay, nobody needs your praise about what I did right. Can we just focus on what’s not working here? And I was like, oh, it’s one of those.

Great. And so we’ve negotiated that relationship. And you’re such a good counterpart because like, I like squirmy stuff, but I’ve never been outwardly political.

And you are so political in your work in the best way, in a way that’s still, you know, I mean, I think so. But I think that it’s a yin and yang of like, here’s a really dumb sitcom joke. But what’s behind that joke? And here’s how you need to think about it all the time.

Yeah, it’s a lucky match. It’s a really lucky match. We’re so happy we found each other.

We’re far from apolitical. Okay, good. How did you guys come together? Did Factory? Factory hooked us up.

They Tindered us. They Dramaturged Tindered us. They did.

I understand the team. I wish there was actually such a thing. Like Dramaturged Tinder.

That is a million dollar app. There would need to be a lot more Dramaturged Tinder. We’d have to pay our Dramaturges a lot better for there to be enough for there to be a Tinder.

You wouldn’t go on an app where you have 12 options? No. But Janna was the Dramaturge for the play and she’s also the in-room Dramaturge. My process is that the play can change completely all the time.

So to have an editor and another set of eyes and just like our assistant director, for us to be able to monitor the changes as we go, because she’s been there from day one. And we’ve done way more workshops for this play than I’ve ever done. We had six fully fleshed out days of workshop spread over the last, like since August.

And then within that, I was rewriting and within all that, we were changing and talking. So it’s been a process. I feel like I just offered you a lozenge.

Oh, I didn’t offer you a lozenge. No, no, no. It’s all good.

Do you want this? They’re so good. They’re very intense. Are they really intense? Everything about us is intense right now.

They’re really good. Even our lozenges. When you say that your job was to sort of make Kat feel less safe or to make her squirm, what did you do to do that? What things did you bring in that made her squirm? I think I consider part of my job to be confrontational in a way that maybe is not polite in a Canadian sense.

And so, I don’t know, but feel free to interrupt me at any point. Actually, you’re very polite. Damn it! Okay.

But because I’m a little bit polite by nature and because nothing was a confrontation like, what are you doing? Your manner is polite, but your ideas are not. Yeah, that’s fair. I think that’s really fair.

And so I think the first round of notes, maybe the first or second round of notes were in three separate emails. So one was like, artistically, I feel like this about it. Structurally, I feel like this about it.

Blackness. Listen, here’s the thing. And then just pure cultural context.

And it’s just an experience that I don’t have. Yeah, and there’s some of those things, there’s no other way to say them except listen. And it’s like, hey, it’s not to say that there’s anything… This tone is not directed at you, this content is.

Sure. There’s no other tone to deliver this content. Okay.

Well, I mean, on that note, I mean, Kat, when you started writing this plan, you knew that there was like, you’ve got a black officer and you’ve got a black victim and you’ve got like, there’s race in this. And you’ve sort of tackled that before, but not, I don’t think like this. Touched on it in other plays, but this is a little bit more diving head first.

But I think I just, I knew that it was a question of surrounding yourself with a lot of the right people who are willing to inform me as much as, you know, as much as I can be informed. And then also, yeah, just trying to listen as much as possible. But to extend that idea, because lots of people bring, you know, air quote that you can’t record, the right people into the room.

And it’s like this additional expected labor sometimes to be on a project where it’s understood that your presence in the room means you’re bringing critical race analysis. Sure. And it’s not everyone’s job.

No. It’s not everyone’s area of knowledge. And it’s not everyone’s area of comfort to expose that part of yourself in a mixed room.

And so I think a large part of it is the way that you have set up the room, Kat. That like it’s, the room is set up in a way that is receptive to feedback. And it’s not a matter of right, wrong, black, white.

It’s not so dichotomous. It’s really a matter of this is how this experience looks. And then other people saying to add a shade to that.

I’m standing over here and this is how this experience looks. I’m standing over here. So it’s really that the convergence of numerous different perspectives.

And even when you look at the cast, just to not homogenize that experience either. We have in the room, there are three black women, myself included, of different generations, of different educations, of different class backgrounds. So all of those things are coming into play.

It’s not a token sense of sensitivity or of inclusion in it. And sometimes it’s just like people assume if you have an 18 year old black actor from Richmond Hill in the room that she can let you know how drug deals go down. And that’s not this room.

That’s good. And maybe she can. I’m not, you don’t know, but it’s not her job.

18 year old black actresses from Richmond Hill. I’m not discounting your knowledge of how a drug deal goes down, but that’s not in your contract. Yeah.

It’s not her job to do that. But on that note, we have, I mean, the actors have had a lot of, we’ve talked about this today, a lot of agency over their parts from a long time ago. And it’s kind of, there’s been a sense that we’re, I hope there’s been a sense that we’re all in it together because everyone signed on when the script was a really different script and not a good script, like not a bad script, but it was like, I’m grateful everyone stayed on to this, to get to where it is now.

And it couldn’t have gotten to where it is now without, without these people. But it’s, I think that sometimes people don’t like to talk about when their scripts weren’t good. So I’m very, I’m very happy that you’re, you’re able to say that, you know, at a certain point, the script was not good.

At a certain point, every script is not good, but that’s also… Yo, yo, speak for yourself. No, but I mean, a lot of people don’t like to admit to that. I don’t know.

I mean, I think like part of the way I work too, and I’ve said this before, is that like, I just try to get something on paper because a script doesn’t start for me until you hear it. And I can’t, especially the way now that I like, this script is the most overlapping and we’ve come up with like a whole new vocabulary for how to make something, not whole new. It’s not, we’re not reinventing the fucking wheel, but like making something sound as close to possible as, as real conversation while still hitting comedy beats and having a certain flow that is obviously heightened.

And I think like, for me, that first draft is always garbage. Or I would say it’s garbage because I don’t really know what it is until I hear it in people’s mouths and I talk about what it is with the people that are inhabiting these characters. Well, I’ve always thought that like, you know, that is the first draft’s job.

Yeah. Someone’s gotta suck. It’s gotta suck, you know, it’s gotta start off sucking and then you fix it.

Donna, in terms of this play, what did you see at first in that early draft? What made you think that, that made you want to bring your, yourself to it? Did you read it first and then sign on? Or did you sign on and then read it? Because we had met once before. Yeah, I read Cockfight. You read Cockfight and then you signed on? Yeah.

I read Cockfight and I was like, I would like to sit at a table with this person and ask a lot of questions and I think, I don’t think we’re gonna like run into each other at a party because I don’t go to those. So I think taking this job is the only way to get those questions on the table. That’s a lot of work to ask some questions.

Yeah. What kind of questions did you want to ask? I wanted to, I guess, ask about her entry point to that particular play and her relationship with poverty and those are the things that came to mind when I was reading that. I had a lot of staging safety questions about fire and sand.

That was the show that we had a real fire on stage. Yeah. At the now defunct storefront.

God knows when they let us do it, but that was really, it was really unsafe. Those were, you were right to have those questions. I had a world of questions about that.

How did you convince them to let you do that? I mean, we just said it was safe. It’s in a metal container. It’s fine.

Also like that, like not that many people saw that show. So no one mentioned it. Yeah, everybody just liked it.

Everybody was like, it’s okay. I’m glad I brought it up and put you on blast. That’s good.

Yeah. No, it’s no, you’re absolutely right. I talk about that all the time and how dangerous that was.

That’s what the whole candle thing that, because this play was going to open with a lot of fire and at the time, Nina was like, that’s fine. And then she was like, absolutely not. That’s crazy.

Who would allow that? And I was like, we didn’t. But I haven’t been restated. Like, no, they did a reading of it somewhere.

I think for maybe theatre in Amarada, but they did it with all women. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. I think even through all the questions I had, I was really taken by Kat’s sense of rhythm. That’s something just like, it’s a gift.

It’s actually a great gift. But you see now, but you know, it’s not a gift because it’s a gift to hear it, but I can’t hear it until people are saying it. It’s almost like composing with voices.

When you hear it, are you then able to, is that when you started to make adjustments to bring the rhythm? But that’s why everyone has had moments of hating me because we’re like, we’re this far into rehearsal now. We’re like almost two weeks out and I’m like, ah, no, that slash is in the wrong place. Here’s a new word that you got to split that line up.

And as they say it, they can hear it too. But it takes me four or five times of running it to hear that it’s wrong or that it can be fixed. And then also once you get an audience, which is why I’ve never been excited about previews before.

I’m so excited about these because so much of the rhythm is affected by whether or not there’s a laugh or if there’s one of those squirmy moments where it’s nice to sit in that. And that’s like, you know, previews really stress me out because I love the, I think the energy of opening is really forgiving. And then previews, people are just like, well, this isn’t finished.

That’s very true. People that are opening tend to be very like, I’m just going to love it. Well, not I’m just going to love it.

But I mean, I think people go into it with, it’s just a bit more of a party atmosphere. But also I think a lot of like a lot of my non-theatre friends, I have been like, I bought tickets to your opening. And like there’s four different people.

And I’m like, those are all previews. You bought tickets to three separate previews. And maybe you just didn’t understand the website.

Yeah. But I’m excited for this. That’s cool.

So I’m curious, Donna, when I like to ask people about their entry into theatre and what made them want to do this thing that we do. And so what is it that made you want to be involved in theatre? And what made you choose to be a dramaturg? Wow. To answer your second question first, accident and opportunity and enjoyment.

Yeah. I come from an English literature background in terms of education wise. I accidentally know how to do things like bookkeeping.

Really? So I started as an administrator at Native Earth Performing Arts. This was my first engagement in professional theatre. Before you had written plays? Yeah.

I used to do improv and sketch comedy. Wow, learning things with Donna. Yeah, a little fun thing.

My mom called it using that fun little thing. And then, yeah, so I had a degree in English lit with a minor in religion. All really on point to my career path here.

And then I was working in long term care. I worked in a nursing home and I got the job at Native Earth because I wanted to support art and support literature. And then I was like, I think, oh, this isn’t like that different from sketches.

I don’t know. Maybe I could do this, whatever. And then someone was like, yeah, right.

And I was like, you, let’s go. Let’s do this. And so I wrote one play.

And then someone said, oh, please, anyone can write one. And I’m like, let’s go. Let’s go.

I’m not naming names. They’re really sorry now. Yeah.

Are they actively sorry? Or are they so sorry? They’re so tired of me. They’re so tired of hearing about me. My profile is tiresome.

I’m halfway through that. So what you’re saying is that anybody could get you to write a play by just being like, whatever. I’m a thousand percent fueled by spite and malice.

That’s not true. It’s completely true. Okay.

And a deep abiding love for all humanity. But mostly spite and malice are my primary motivators. And yeah, I think I didn’t think that we were going to be compatible.

And then I’m like, I bet people think I don’t know how to make new friends. Watch this. I’m going to make, I’m going to make so totally friends.

Are you only friends because you’re competitive with the world? Is that what you’re saying? No, man. I love you to the bone. But I do remember when we first met you being like, oh, I hear you write a lot of plays too.

Yeah, yeah. I was pretty mad. I was pretty mad because I’ve been hearing about Kat for a couple of years.

You hear stories about Kat’s plays. Sometimes you hear stories about the plays. Sometimes you hear stories about your way of working.

Sometimes you hear stories about you as a performer. These are all nice stories. As a performer? Yeah.

Oh my. About you as a performer or as a director. But mostly all those stories, the overtone is this girl writes three plays a year.

This girl can crank it out. And I was like, yo, I’m that girl. Get off my spot.

What do you, how do you, all right, let’s see about this. All right, let’s see about this. So yeah, you’re right.

The first thing I said to you was I hear you write a lot of plays. And I was like, I’m going to take her down a peg. And then I read your plays and I was like, oh man, this is, oh, there’s no taking down to happen here.

This is just like, I want to be associated with this. With this play though. Like this play was so fucking hard because, now I sound like Tim.

You give me great joy every time you say that this play is hard. Good, it’s hard. It makes me feel like you’ll take longer to write yourself a good play.

I will now, I will now because I’m used to being able to like, stop it. In a short time, like Midnight started as a 24 hour play contest and it was really bad the first time. Like it wasn’t really bad, but it was like that I wrote that whole play in a night.

Sure. And I like, I kept on this one beat. Like I would have, I had, I was like, I know what’s going to happen and I’ve got two days.

So I’m just going to pull two all-nighters and it just, nothing would happen. Like I would just sit, like I gave myself like full on anxiety attacks, just like trying to crank this out in a way that, and it didn’t click in until like three, like three weeks ago. Had you already, like, had you already been, like, was this show already in the season at that point? The show was in the season before it was finished.

Okay. But at what point? It was commissioned, right? It was commissioned. Um, and they, and they had read a big chunk of it and then, uh, it, it got for developed further and further and further.

So like, even for auditions, people were reading an unfinished draft and they were like, I really like how it ends. And I was like, Oh, do you know how? Describe how you feel about where it could be ending. Yeah.

But I do think, I do think it’s going to be harder now. Like, I think just because I’m, I, this is my gateway gateway to like the, the goodness of hard stuff. Cause like in the moments that you can feel it works, you’re like, I fucking earned this feeling.

Like, I remember that when that line was said by someone else who then got cut from the play and it was at the end and now it’s at the beginning. And this is where it sounds and feels right. This one of all of these bajillion things, I know this one thing is the rightest it’s ever been.

And there could be another draft where it’s in a better place. But like that, that feeling of knowing it’s come from so many, so many other drafts and versions and people’s people’s comments. And it’s just, it’s really, that that’s really sad.

I also feel like because you didn’t anticipate this shift in your process, the frustration over how long it was taking is a bit amplified. No kidding. And you know, like, because you’ve worked in a certain way, a number of times, like, so then whatever this is, it’s not going to take you this, you’re going to go back to 24 hour.

I don’t know. I mean, some of the stuff, some of the stuff that I have left that I’m supposed to work out now, I’m like, Oh, I should, I should make something in that play harder. Like, not just for me, but for an audience.

Like, that’s like my sex robot play that I’m working on. I’m like, how do I make that even harder? I make that more like Black Mirror. For a second, I thought you really used it, the sex robot play.

I thought you were talking about Love, Sex, Honey, but this is like something else. Yeah, it’s a new, it’s an evolution. But I don’t know if you find that like, like there, like you said, like, like there’s, there have been elements of, of tackling racism in other plays.

And then this, I think is the, was the next step of that, of, of working in that area. And then like, do you steal from your old things and then amplify for new plays? Like if you were to go to Mustard and this, like our stage manager saw Mustard last night, she was like, I caught all the catisms in it. Like I can trace you, but I also see where you are now compared to that.

That’s so interesting. Like, I just think that’s so cool. Yeah.

Like we’re constantly stealing from ourself and like stacking on our old stuff. I think that we’re all, we all like, you, you have your obsessions and these are the questions that you’re always trying to work out. And they come up again and again in different ways.

Yeah. I mean, that’s like, that’s the nature of auteurship, right? It’s like not being able to let something go. Yeah.

And it’s like, if you’re, if you’re bad at it, people are like, oh, you’re repetitive. And if you’re good at it, they’re like, it’s a trope. Oh shit.

You just have to be good at your obsession. You just have to commit to your obsession and just do that. But it’s also tricks.

Like, like even in this one, like when we had one workshop with an actor I’ve worked with a lot, Andy Tritter, he was like, I dare you to not use alcohol in this play. And I was like, nope. What a fool.

No, but I understood it because I often do use it as a way to escalate action, both as a director because I like the business of it. And I knew I was going to direct this one. And I was like, at some point in this huge, massive page of hard text, someone’s going to need to move.

So I might as well give myself a reason. But that’s, I use that in so many plays. Like, like alcohol and people get drunker and drunker.

And, um, or like, you know, tender scenes on couches. I love those. Sure, it’s a great way to- Are those your experience of life? What, alcohol and tender scenes? They usually go hand in hand.

Well, I mean, alcohol, like you’re saying, it lubricates. It makes things, makes people do things that they wouldn’t do if they were sober. It’s a great way to get people to do stuff.

So did you eliminate alcohol from this? Nope? Okay, I added more. Okay. There’s so much drinking.

So much drinking. I’ve never seen so much drinking. This is the most amount of hard liquor that’s ever been consumed in one of my plays.

No. Ah, no, it was on, it’s probably tied with late night. Okay.

That’s not measurable. It’s a good two-six each play, but ours also has beer. Gosh.

Ours includes beer as well. Great props. This shows a lot of props.

Oh, geez. Like, would you, which one would you say had more props? No, this is probably the most. Yeah? This is probably the most.

Yeah. Yeah. Sandwiches are complicated props.

Complicated props. Yeah. I love, I love eating on stage.

I love when anything is real on stage. I don’t know. It’s like a little kid in me when you, when the first time you see a player where they actually eat something, you’re like, oh my God, it’s real.

I always, I always sort of, I have a little moment of losing my shit. Whenever somebody like in a set is like, you know, there’s a kitchen and they turn on the tap and there’s like real water. Running water.

We all turn into idiots. Or it’s like, yeah. Somebody opens a fridge and the light turns on.

I’m like, oh my God, there’s a light in the fridge. I lose it. Just yeah.

Any cooking. Because yeah, when there’s cooking and you can smell the. For Big Clams, we did that.

We cooked a sausage on stage and it was just, people just were so grossed out. It was amazing. But it’s cause like, that’s the thing that theatre has on film, right? It’s multisensory.

Like, and that’s, and that’s so fucking cool. And I think in this one too, cause we’re playing with a few metatheatrical elements. There’s also the sense of not just being in the theatre, but being at the theatre.

Like it’s, it’s theatrical in that we call attention to you as the audience. And it’s like, it can be totally high school wanky in places, but I’m kind of starting to come around to it. Fourth wall is mentioned.

Oh, fourth wall is mentioned. Okay. I’m not ruining anything.

No, that’s the climax. No, great. That was the twist.

No, that was the twist. Um, Kat, you, you’ve got this play opening in February. Mustard is on right now.

Yes, it is. There, at a certain point, they’re going to be like. The 27th and the 28th.

You could see both. How does it feel to have like two of your plays in two different theatres? It feels amazing. It’s really lovely.

I feel just, I just feel supported by the, like by these two spaces. Um, and like, this was a commission from factory and I’m, I’m now the Canada council playwright in residence at Terragon. So it feels really like you have a, like, I have a lovely group of people backing me up and, and wanting to help get the workout.

And, uh, it’s also stressful. Like the week, the week of the other week of mustard previews, when we were, when we were just starting our rehearsal, that was, it’s just a lot of your brain. And then you also start thinking, you’re like, oh man, like if someone were to go see mustard on this, like what would the, how would that affect their, like, if you, if you go see like heartwarming mustard and then you come to this, how does that affect your experience of this? If you, if you know that if, if you’re expecting a certain kind of theatre playwright, because these are very, they are very different.

Very different. I wonder if people will do that. I don’t think anyone really, really will.

It would be, it’s a big day. I have an aunt and an uncle coming in from Alberta who are going to do it on the 28th. Oh my God.

Oh my God. And I think they’re going to go nuts. It’s a lot of overlapping dialogue for one day.

Well, if they’re, if they’re used to it, I mean, they could maybe do it, but. But I’d also never done, like, I’d never had a show of mine remounted like that. Like we’ve remounted some shows for touring from Brouhaha, but that Tarragon just, it’s so weird.

Like you walk into it and you’re like, oh my God, is this two years ago? Like it’s the same. Well, you remounted, you redid Love, Sex, Money. We tour, yeah.

Because you did that. Remounted Love, Sex at Next Stage and we, we toured Help Yourself and Punch Up. So those, so we, so we did remounts of all of those and Delicacy as well.

Sure. But when you did that, you like, things were different about the remount? It was not really, but it was just, it was an indie remount. Like if those, none of those plays have big sets, they don’t, they’re, they’re built for festivals.

Sure. Or so they don’t, they’re not massive. Like they, like they had to rebuild a lot of that Tarragon set.

Okay. And so now Tarragon is like, it does feel like two years ago when you go back in there? No, it feels the same because they rebuilt it to exact, like, although you’ll notice one thing, you’ll be like, oh, that picture was somewhere else. They’re like, that outfit was a bit different.

It’s, it’s super, it’s super weird. It’s really trippy. Like, it’s cool.

It’s, I’m very grateful. Did you, did you direct Mustard? No, Ashley Clark Kent. Okay.

Yeah. Um, because I sort of wondered, like when you were talking about your brains sort of twisting, I was like, she didn’t direct Mustard. No, I would have lost my mind.

They also did it so quickly. They did it. They read, they, she redirected it in two days.

They had two days in rehearsal hall and then they went into tech. Yeah, with two new cast members. What? They did it.

They did a great job. Those are two champions. Yeah, absolutely.

Those new cast members are champions. Yeah. So at this point in the rehearsal, you’ve got a couple of weeks before, okay.

So you got a million years. Um, so as you’re, as you’re drawing, you know, there’s still a million years before that happens, but as, as you’re getting closer to that, um, is there anything that you’re hoping for, for the audience, uh, when people actually, when people come to see this, is there something that you, you hope for? We talked a little bit about it being that, that the, the perspective that they come in with has the opportunity to be challenged, that they, that they change, maybe change their mind or see something from a different point of view. Yeah, we were, we were talking yesterday about like, it’s not about changing anyone to the opposite position, but it’s about unsettling their certainty about the position they came in with.

You know, we don’t need to like move you from point A to point B. We just need you to know that you were really sure of point A when you came in and now you’re like, yeah, gray area. Not so much to incite a conflict as discussion, I think is the right, is the right way to talk about it. But also like, I mean, it’s still a play.

It’s not an essay. It’s not a lecture. It’s a play.

So primarily I want people to be entertained, whether or not that’s, you know, we’re laughing the whole time or there’s an element of catharsis or the play made me angry or like something that, that I want you to feel something. Sure. There’s an interesting thing to me about theatre versus, versus film.

The fact that you’re in the same room with these people, whereas in film or television, you can disengage when you’re squirmy. You can turn away, you can pick up your phone. So many different ways in film and television that you can separate yourself that you can’t really do in a theatre unless you are willing to get up and walk out.

Well, then we are giving people an intermission, so they are welcome to do so. No, they’re not. They’re not welcome.

No. Donna’s going to stand outside. Yeah.

People are welcome to leave an intermission. I’m in the parking lot waiting to fight. So, you know, there are choices.

There are choices. There’s choices. There’s perfectly good choices.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that’s one of the things is that, is that, I mean, people could try to leave, but then they would be robbing themselves of how it ends. And the two acts are, I think that it builds quite a lot in the second act.

And we set it up in a way that I hope people want to come back and see the second. I’m not a big fan of intermissions. I’d rather just do it straight through.

But this one, it feels appropriate somehow. And also, I mean, like, if you want to, if you want to go, that’s like, yeah, that’s good. Go.

Sure. You know, no one should be anywhere they don’t want to be. No, it’s true.

Oh, my God. Say it again. That’s so good.

Yeah, it’s true. I’m not going to say it again. I’m going to say it to myself all night.

Yeah. We’re taking, you know, as many steps as we can to make sure that if this play is not good for you, you know, the ways in which it’s not good for you. You can make that decision about to not come.

Sure. Yeah, that’s true. There’s enough stuff in it where I actually hope that if someone feels uncomfortable, they’ll avail themselves of it.

Yeah. Not uncomfortable. Uncomfortable is fine.

I’m safe. Totally. In an emotional way.

Yeah. But I do think that, I mean, some people get really – they have difficulty with being challenged and squirming. I saw Calpurnia this week, and I don’t know that I’ve squirmed quite so much.

But I think it’s a very difficult – it’s a different kind of squirm. There’s so many challenging things that just made me – and I chose to sit in the front row where you can’t even hide behind anybody. Yeah.

And so there’s a lot of – there’s a bit of discomfort. But I liked it, you know, so there’s like, you know, you were challenging me here in ways that I didn’t expect, which is a healthy thing. I think too.

And Calpurnia is a comedy. Like, I think that – like, I think people are most uncomfortable when you can’t pick that. When you’re laughing and you’re feeling squirmy in that way that we’re talking about, and it’s harder with comedy, but it’s also a more effective way to get something across because you’re like, okay, I’m here to see a comedy, and oh, that’s a thing.

Now I have this feeling, but that was just a joke. Oh, there’s another joke, but there’s a thing underneath that joke. And I think that that’s – yeah, I think that’s awesome.

Like, I think – like, no one goes to Hamlet or Oedipus expecting to not – like, those are tragedies, and it’s like it’s somehow more safe to go into those knowing that they’re tragedies than to go into something like Calpurnia or hopefully Bang Bang knowing that you’re going to have to think about hard things, but there’s going to be lots of jokes. Yeah. And that I think we’re more – And rum.

I think we’re more uncomfortable with our guilt around laughing at things like that. And there’s lots of jokes in this where I’m like – you know, I’ve turned to Deanna and been like, oh, I don’t know. Is it too far? And she’s been like, I don’t know.

Let’s try it. Too much? Too much is a big question in there. Yeah, and there are, and hopefully we’ll find those in the previews.

Yeah. When you’re writing, and Donna, please, because since you’re writing too, I’m always interested in people’s writing processes. And you tend to write straight through.

You don’t – do you plot out or do you just sort of let the play tell you where it’s going to be in the first draft? I prefer to do that, but I haven’t been able to do that as much lately, also because I’m starting to work in television now, and that is so rigidly plotted and rigidly outlined, and I’m finding it sometimes – like, I haven’t used cue cards as much as I have in this – than on this show because of the TV stuff I’m working on. So I understand now the benefit of having it plotted out, but I also find that sometimes I just don’t know where it’s going, and you just have to like your characters enough and have created a good enough situation that you’re excited to see what they do in that place. That being said, that means I also end up with really long, rambly first drafts and finished plays sometimes.

But like, especially endings, because I never – I’ve never known what the ending of a play was, ever, except for Help Yourself, and people said they saw that coming miles away. Miles and miles away. Yeah, that’s interesting, because maybe knowing the ending, it makes you write to it in a way that you think is sneaky but isn’t to anyone else.

It’s not uncommon to have a twist that I – like, I’ve seen so many things where I see the twist. It’s like, there are like, oh, his best friend is the bad guy, and I saw it, you know. I wish that twists were that simple.

Yeah, they always set that up like, oh, you’re going to be surprised by this when it happens, and you’re like, no, I saw that. Yeah, I actually feel like it happens more when someone’s writing to a twist than they spend the whole beginning of the play hiding it, and you’re like, why do you keep putting stuff under that carpet? There’s like a giant lump under that carpet, why are you trying to get me to look out the window? I’m really curious about that carpet. Yeah, but because this play is like – it’s almost like because we’re talking about theatre and because they’re examining a literal play in their hands, we can just kind of be crazier.

We’re like, would people do this? I don’t know, no one’s ever – I’ve never been in a situation where what we are saying is happening has ever happened. Maybe they could. I don’t know.

No one’s disproved us. But that’s kind of a nice place to play, like, when anything can happen, anything can happen. Yeah, what a gift of an absurd premise.

Yeah, yeah. And I guess it is absurd. Yeah.

It is kind of absurd. It’s not. It’s absurd within the bounds of believability.

Like, it could happen, but it hasn’t, and maybe somewhere in the world it did, I don’t know. But there’s enough ridiculous converging elements. I love it.

Donna, are you a write and discover, or do you plan out? I live without a plan. There’s no part of my life that is planned. So, yeah, I agree with Kat completely.

I like the way that you said, like your characters and have to find out what happens, because it’s something that, like, I think my dad used to, you know, read a half a story and be like, and then what? I’m like, I don’t know, that’s all I got. And he would say, like, why did you make them exist if you don’t even know what to do with them? And I’m like, I made them exist. I’m responsible for them.

Okay, let’s get everyone tucked into bed at night. You know, let’s drive to the end of this and get everyone tucked into bed. And so, like, yeah, you have to like them enough to want to take them home.

And liking them doesn’t mean that they’re good people. It’s just you have to like living with them and their voices. Because, like, we don’t always like Tim, who’s the protagonist, or the antagonist.

He’s antagonist. But he’s definitely familiar to me. Sometimes I’ve written people who are not very nice, and I don’t really like them.

But I always really want to hear what they want to say. Yeah. Or I want to see how, if you raise the stakes of the situation, I’m like, what’s he going to do? That silly person.

So does that mean you’re a discoverer also? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, I have a friend who’s like, he’s like, very careful. He’s like, you see, he’s putting out his index cards. And he’s like, that’s what he swears by.

And I’m just like, seat of my pants. Like, I’ll fix it later. I’ll do something with it later.

But I thought I could do that on this. And I didn’t. Like, the index cards came out on like draft five.

And then again, really in a big way on like draft 10. And like, when I say drafts, they’re not, they didn’t have endings. Like, they were just me going over again.

Sure. Like, and I’m incapable of that. I kept being like, can you just start at the middle? And I was like, no, I always have to start at the beginning.

I swear to God, your drafts are maddening. Yeah, your drafts are maddening. I can never pick up in the middle.

Because everything at the beginning affects. It’s like dominoes. Yeah.

I can’t. It’s awful. I feel like once a week, I’d be like, so the ending.

And I’d be like, that’s not where we are. Like, I know, that’s sort of what I’m getting at. She was like, maybe if you just work in tiny chunks.

I was like, I can’t. I can only work in big chunks. And they start at the beginning every time.

But see, that makes sense to me. It makes sense. It’s just a dumb way.

Like, there’s got to be a better way. I don’t know if it’s a dumb way. You can remember that at the end, like, Billy has to eat a sandwich.

And then, therefore, know that at the beginning, someone has to make a sandwich. But just get right the sandwich ending. Write down, Billy eats a sandwich.

Write down, Billy eats a sandwich and then go back. Yeah. I mean, theory, I know that.

But I can’t feel it. I’m not really that strongly believing it. It’s coming out of my mouth.

What did you, like, when you were using the index cards, when the index cards came out, was it just to, what were you using them for? It was everything. Well, when I got really stuck, so stuck, another friend and I, I was like, I don’t know, this is the worst. Can’t figure it out.

And he’s a screenwriter in the play. I was like, what would a screenwriter do? They would look online to see what are the steps of writing a screenplay. So I just wrote, like, I put those as headings.

And then I tried to fill in everything I knew in terms of the steps of writing a screenplay. And that didn’t work at all. But like, that was where I started.

And then I had little bits filled in. So one cue card would just be like, gun, question mark? Where does this go? And then it would be, and then it became arguments. And it became the flow of arguments.

But ultimately, they all got moved around, not with cue cards. Like the final draft I did, I had written from the cue cards, but then I was like, now I’m just moving chunks and figuring out who, because by then, you know, there’s five very different perspectives in this play. And I didn’t know in the first few drafts who, what they were.

Sure. But once you decide, you know, what color, like, what color everything is. Why’s everything gotta be black and white? Not colored.

I don’t understand. This is what, oh, she’s perfect. Is this, is this, is this, is this what, like, your, your meetings are like? She only calls me at, like, this, um, very select occasions.

And it’s always, it’s always felt, and it’s always necessary. There are a few times in the room where I’ve been like, oh my god, I can’t believe I said that. And I can’t believe she called me out on it in that moment.

And now I turn beet red. And then I’m like, okay, that’s good. And this is why I get really mad in the moment.

And then I’m like, no, this is, I need her. But I do. People don’t actually know that it, like, that it’s as hard to call someone out as it is to receive.

You know what I mean? Like, that, not you, not you. But I’m saying people don’t understand that, like, people have this idea with people of color, with women, with indigenous people, that’s like, just say something. It’s like, that’s not, yeah, I don’t know, that’s not always available.

I always feel like when somebody says, like, just say something, and I think to myself, would I just say something? Yeah. No, I would be, like, too embarrassed, too introverted, too nervous to say something. And if you don’t articulate it correctly, it is not received.

So there’s a lot of pressure, I feel like, on numerous artists to, like, brilliantly encapsulate. Like, I can sometimes see someone working on a thought, and I’m just like, you know what, we need to hold for a second, because I want that thought to finish being constructed. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you have an excellent memory for that, too. She’ll say, we’ll be around the room, like, 10 minutes will go by, and she’ll be like, I think Sebastian had a thought, had the bubble of a thought back there, and I just want to give him the space to finish it and voice it, if he’s able to hear. It’s amazing.

Cool. But so much of, like, what’s great is so much of what we talk about, and this play is about communication and conversation, and how to listen, and where you should listen, and where you must listen. So it’s been a really big learning process for me.

I don’t know. I can’t speak for everyone else. Me, too.

Thanks for backing me up there. Yeah. You’re the only one learning shit.

I know, but it’s true. I am, because I’m known to be an outspoken person, and I think of myself as being able to articulate my thoughts. But, you know, for the benefit of anyone who, like, feels like they should have said something sometimes, lots of times I can’t say something.

And it makes all the difference the way that you receive it. It makes all the difference to me feeling able to say something next time. And that’s just, like, it’s a thing that we need to learn.

Does it become easier to say something if the person that you’re saying it to has shown that they can take it? Oh, my goodness. So much. Yeah.

That’s so rare to have. It is so rare. Yeah.

Like, for me to be able to say, this is a thing. I’m saying it right to your face. Yeah.

And I know that you’re receiving it, and I know you’re going to respond accordingly. That just doesn’t happen all the time in rooms where you have to talk about difficult shit. Absolutely.

Yeah. Or sometimes you’ll get pulled aside later with, like, could you not do that in front of people? Or you just want to be like, but the thing that you said was said in front of people. I feel like all the people who heard the thing you said needed to hear you take it back.

I mean, this is what we’re doing here. Yeah, it’s super complicated. And like, all communication rehearsal, every room is different.

But the fact that this play is so focused on process and accountability and responsibility to other people, I think really affects the way that people talk to and listen to each other. Because we’re sitting there, I guess, listening to what an idiot you sound like when you don’t listen. Yeah.

And so everyone’s like, I’m just going to super listen today, because I hate looking like an idiot. Yeah. Yeah, we’re all learning.

And I think it’s also three, however many people in the room, there’s seven very different artist processes outside of the characters. Everyone has their own way that they want to work. And because we set up really early on that feedback and comments and changes to your character were welcome, you can’t really then yank that away.

And because I think it’s a close group in that everyone at least appears to be very comfortable with each other. So there have been offers, which in other rooms, you know, being like, I would love it if Donna’s character could do this, which is such a taboo. In this room, there have been times when someone said, can I just offer this? I think it might be easier if we took this word out of your line to make it sound better.

Because we just lucked out and everyone is such a great editor in that room. And they have a really good ear for grammar and logic and just text. And people say no well, which is another thing I find really hard to do personally.

When I say no, it’s ugly. So if someone in the room makes an offer and then someone else is like, thanks, not going to do that, but thank you. And it’s just not ugly when they do.

In most contexts, if you said to me, thanks, I’m not going to do that. I’d be like, Allie, now. A lot of Donna’s interactions end with Allie.

Allie, now. I’m understanding that there’s like parking lots and Allie’s here. But I’m not actually seeing any of that in here.

You’re always like, Allie, now. She’s so cute. I’m just kidding.

Don’t call her cute. No, sorry. Don’t call her fucking cute.

No. For the record, people have been taken to the Allie. Okay.

Okay. People have been taken to the Allie. It’s cold.

Yeah. It’s cold and I’m lazy. In the summer, I’m fighting everybody.

Everybody. In the winter, nobody’s fighting. Oh, you know, on that note, we’re out of time.

So I want to thank you guys so much for this conversation. Cheerful note to end. No, no, no.

This is great. Thank you. Thank you.