Johnny Wideman – Theatre of the Beat
Johnny is the Artistic Director and a founding member of Theatre of the Beat. Studied Drama at the University of Waterloo & Theatre at the University of Sussex where he focused on politically oriented theatre & practitioners. He enjoys hypothetical jokes, riding his motorcycle and lives in Stouffville, ON.
#CHURCHTOO
Artfully depicted through a variety of scenes and relationships, #ChurchToo explores the struggle of wading into the realities of sexual assault and examines the difficulties of speaking out in a community where the topic of sex is often considered taboo. Follow an array of characters through seven vignettes, each bringing to life stories about hidden trends within our church communities. From the secret relationship of a young woman and her pastor, to discriminatory church policies, all the way to bringing forth allegations against persons in power, #ChurchToo illuminates the messy dynamics that accompany the complicated truths of power and sexual abuse.
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Transcript
Welcome to episode 156 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre, featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.
Before we get to the show, I wanted to tell you that this Wednesday, November the 14th, I will be hosting a talkback after the performance of Gods Like Us at Factory Theatre, and you will have heard me talk to Vince and Zazu about this show just a couple of weeks ago. This is your opportunity to go and see the show and talk to them, ask them your questions, and meet them after the show, and say hello to me as well. So make sure that you get your tickets for this Wednesday, November the 14th, the performance of Gods Like Us at Factory Theatre Studio, so you can find those tickets on their website.
Also, in the coming weeks, you will hear me talking to the two stars of Eldritch Theatre, Space Opera Zero, and you may have heard me rave about the work that Eldritch does in the past, and I offered a contest online for a couple of tickets, but I can only give two tickets to one person for that contest, and I will announce that by now, but I want as many people as possible to see the work that Eldritch does, and so I’ve arranged to have a special discount for you when you buy your tickets to Space Opera Zero. Go to eldritchtheatre.ca and get your tickets now, and when you check out, use the promo code STAGEWORTHY to get your tickets for $20 each. You know what? If you feel like dropping me a line, remember that you can always find Stage Worthy on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at stageworthypod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. You know, if you want to drop me a line, as always, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickaby, and my website is philrickaby.com. This week, my guest is Johnny Wideman of Theatre of the Beat.
Johnny was the dramaturg for Theatre of the Beat’s Hashtag Church 2, which explores the realities of sexual assault and the difficulties of speaking out in a community where sex is often considered taboo. Theatre of the Beat has been touring this show around Canada and brings this show to Toronto on November the 17th at the Toronto United Mennonite Church, and then returns again after stops in other communities to Toronto’s Assembly Theatre, November 30th to December 2nd. Before we jump into Theatre of the Beat and talk about that, I do want to talk a little bit about Hashtag Church 2 and where that came from.
And just generally, is this the first time that you guys have performed it? Or you guys have done… Well, this is the first time we’ve performed the show, yeah. We just opened September 21st in Kitchener, and so we’ve been doing kind of grassroots theatre for a while, like where we’re working with communities about the issues that are affecting them, and so we were approached by Mennonite Church Eastern Canada following sexual abuse allegations and charges that were within the Mennonite community that really shook it in Kitchener. And so they were like, okay, we need to try to do education on clergy abuse and professional misconduct, and just like sexual assault in general.
And it was like this conversation started like six months before Me Too even broke. So it wasn’t necessarily a public conversation at that time. And so they said that they were going to do a conference, but then didn’t know if anyone would want to go to a conference about sexual assault.
Right. And so in this discussion, they were like, what about a play? Yeah. And then they started talking with us, and then we commissioned seven writers to each write a scene for it.
And then we’ve kind of produced it through their funding. Like they sponsored the show. I do have to say that it’s a pretty brave move of the church to decide they want to have a conversation about it.
A lot of churches don’t, as we’ve seen. So I mean, that’s a really positive thing that they were like, we have to do something about this. Yeah.
And just like not talking about it. 100%. Yeah.
I think, I mean, it definitely came out of bad situations. Like it was responsive, but it was proactive, and that they wanted to try to curtail further situations. So yeah, it’s been interesting to work with the church on it, because they obviously have things that, I don’t know, they’ve actually been pretty good about.
Like even like we’ve been writing very honestly, and like the writers, most of the writers at least grew up in churches, but are no longer part of churches. And so they have pretty like pretty angry stories, and they were like fine with it. They just wanted the truth to get out, and they wanted to give victims a voice.
That’s really good. I mean, a lot of people who leave churches have a story about why they left the church. Totally.
A lot of people leave churches, and most people that I know, they’re not like, well, I just didn’t feel like it anymore. There’s usually something that was like, that like sparked the, where maybe it’s an unanswered question or something like that. And then for other people, it’s like serious shit.
Oh, for sure. No, absolutely. Yeah.
And I think, I mean, this topic just brings up serious shit. Oh, yeah. So like we’ve been hosting talkbacks after each show, where we basically just like give the audience a chance to process it collectively with like a panel.
So there’s like a counselor, there’s me, there’s the actors. We had Matt when we were like opened it. And just like, yeah, the discussions that are coming up.
It’d be really cool. Are those, I mean, did you know when you just, like, are you doing the talkback after every show? So far. Yeah.
So far. Is that something that you foresee? I hope so. Yeah.
It’s like a heavy show. Like it leaves you with a pit in your stomach. So I think there’s definitely merit to processing it together.
Like after that. Is it conceivable that you’ll be able to have a counselor at every performance? We’re trying. We’re really trying.
So if not a counselor, at least counselor resources. But our shows in Manitoba, we’ve lined up counselors for all of those. In Alberta, we’ve got counselors.
I think we’re still searching for counselors in Saskatchewan. But I mean, I am, I’m just a dramaturg. I can’t necessarily speak to the more intense things that come up.
Of course. I mean, you guys were, we’re just people making a play generally. And we could talk about our experience making it, but we’re not the, we can’t be the counselor in that situation.
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.
And so, yeah, what we’re trying to do is just kind of kick the door open and then hope that the community then keeps that door open and continues to process it and continues to make space for like, for victims to come forward and to believe them. So yeah, I certainly can’t speak to like, actually, one of the main questions that kept coming up was like, how do we respond to someone if someone comes forward to us with allegations and stuff like that? And so we’ve had to kind of do our research, but also kind of get those questions over to people who know better. Yeah.
That is a difficult question when you’re doing something like that, because the audience member may relate to a particular character on the stage and reach out to them. Yeah, exactly. And that’s when you’re doing something like this, like as people who are not trained in that sort of thing, you have to decide what you’re going to do with it because you can’t take that on.
No, I know. Yeah. And I think it will be heavy.
So one thing that our theatre, The Beat is doing is actually paying for like, we’re putting money towards counseling for all of the actors as well, because it’s like a super heavy show. It’s like a really difficult show. Like there are seven different scenes, so they’re bouncing in and out of different characters, but each scene is like really heavy.
Yeah. So we also want to like support the actors who are putting it on. Has it been a really challenging rehearsal process? Like what’s the process of like working on a show as heavy as this? Yeah, we really work to try to make it like a safe space for sure.
Yeah. So right off the bat, we said, if you ever need to leave the room, you don’t need to tell us why or anything. Like you can just say, I need 10 or whatever.
If you just leave, we’ll give you 10 and then go and check on you. Like making sure, like one thing is that, so there’s four in the cast, two are women, two are men. And then there was a male stage manager, male director.
And then I am also male. So the room was very male focused. But a lot of these stories about like female victims.
So also just trying to make sure that the space was shared in terms of like the processing, the questions, the comments. How do you, when the room is heavily male, how do you, what kind of mindset do you need to have to make room for the women in the cast and not, you know, not well actually them? Yeah. I mean, I guess, I guess for me, like that’s all I can speak to is just like trying to listen more than talk, trying to like notice when people are like wanting to talk, but aren’t necessarily like asserting themselves and trying to like direct conversations or questions to those people.
Yeah. And then I think also just like if people are quiet, also it’s a difficult thing because you don’t want to necessarily be like, what do you think about this? Because maybe they’re quiet for a reason. And so it’s super tricky.
I don’t necessarily have like a textbook answer for that. What was opening the show in Kitchener like? I mean, you guys did it in a theatre there. Yeah.
And now for the most of the run, it will be in church sanctuaries. We’ve done one show so far in a church sanctuary. Um, but yeah, I would say it was intense.
Like I was super nervous, like our audience, specifically in churches, they’re not, they’re not typically theatre going people. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, so I think is that, is that just to jump in, is that, is that, uh, is that a Mennonite thing or is that, is that, uh, just like the, just like the, the locality is that, uh, I don’t know. Uh, I think it certainly could be a Mennonite thing, at least historically. Um, yeah, I think the Mennonite community has a, has a long history with theatre.
Like early on theatre was actually used by Mennonites and trying to like speak against the Catholic church. Sure. They would have these like paid rhetoric, rhetoric, it’s like a rhetoric issue, rhetoric issue.
Okay. Uh, who would like stand on the street corner and basically give like monologues to like change people’s minds. So it was like, it was kind of like used radically or politically at first.
Right. But then, I don’t know, in the 1900s became more of like a sin to go to the theatre, to go see a movie or anything like that. Yeah.
Um, but I would say, I don’t know, maybe it’s just churches in general. Maybe. I’m not, I’m not really sure.
I mean, the average person doesn’t go to theatre. No, it’s very true. It’s very true.
When we’re thinking average people, you’re right. Yeah. So, I mean, sadly.
I mean, we might, a lot of the average person might save up now and then to go and see like, I don’t know, for a while it was like, oh, I saw the Phantom of the Opera once. Yes, exactly. You know, back in the day.
Mirvish probably gets a lot of like. Well, they probably get a lot of them at one time. Once every 10 years they go to the theatre.
Yeah. Yeah. It’s harder to get people into indie theatre because I think they’re afraid of, of the idea of a small space.
Absolutely. It’s vulnerable. It’s intimate.
You don’t feel as much like there’s more of that sense of like anything could happen. Yeah. So it’s like unnerving.
It’s like going to a comedy show. Yeah. And when, I mean, when you’re in it, when you’re in a big, like one of the big like Mirvish houses and stuff, it’s like the actor’s kids.
Yeah. You’re like safe in the, in the crowd. Exactly.
If you’re in like this tiny little theatre, like the Red Sandcastle or like a, any kind of storefront or anything like that, it’s like, they’re right there. Oh, for sure. They can see you.
And you can like, you can hear the responses. You can feel the, like either agitation or discomfort or laughter is like so much more present. Like that reciprocal connection is so much more present.
It’s always like you, when in a small space, you notice, like when you’ve lost the audience, you notice the, like suddenly when everybody starts shifting, you’re like, Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. You know, it’s, and it’s, it’s kind of, it can be a little demoralizing, but it’s also like, like, yeah, they’re right there.
Yeah. No, a hundred percent. One.
So I saw it when we were in the theatre and kitchen and I was at every show and I was like kind of sitting up so I could see everyone. And like, during the uncomfortable scenes, there is this like weird, I don’t even know what to call it. Every, it seemed like everyone was possessed by this feeling, like where they were like doing, they were trying to sit up out of their chairs and like, almost like they were going to leave and then sat back down and it would spread in pockets where I would see a bunch of people doing it.
And then there would be a moment where the tension would break and everyone would kind of like relax. And you could, there was like a change in the room, like almost like this kind of like exorcism that just taken place. It’s almost like, it sounds like it’s almost like the fight or flight was like, like people were just uncomfortable.
And when they’re uncomfortable there, they want to, they feel like they have to do something. Exactly. The I’m in a theatre.
I need to sit down sort of takes over. Yeah. Yeah.
Oh, a hundred percent. What was the difference between performing it at a theatre and performing it at a, at a, at a church sanctuary? I know for the actors, like a theatre audience, the theatre audience, when we perform, like we had four shows other than the matinee that the audience was much more receptive. So not even receptive, but more reciprocal, like just giving more back, like, you know, either like those kinds of palpable silence were intense or like laughter or like you could hear tears.
But when we, when we did it in the church, it was really hard to read the audience. There was like whispering, like people were talking to each other. So there wasn’t the same kind of understanding about like maybe, you know, what an audience should or should not do.
And I actually liked that, but I think the actors were kind of caught off guard by that dynamic. But then afterwards, as soon as the show ended, then the talk back was like so intense. Like everyone was so emotionally engaged and so invested in the content.
So it like, it was still really well received. It’s interesting because I’m thinking about the muscle memory of a place. And if you’re, if you go to that church every Sunday, there’s a certain behaviour that’s reinforced by, by being in that space.
Definitely. Which means that you’re not likely to be as boisterous as you might be in the theatre because this is your church. Yeah.
And it’s like a holy space or sacred space. We like, we’ve staged church too, like around all of the different seats. So there’s like, you know, actors are kind of coming in and when the actors aren’t on stage, they’re actually in the pews.
Like they’re, they’re in with the people, the audience. But this really weird thing is like when this, when the action is happening, not at the front, people don’t turn around. It’s like they’ve been conditioned to just like sit and stare forward.
Like the odd person will kind of like look over their shoulder and they’re not really sure what to do, but no one will like readjust in their seat. No one will kind of stand up to look. It’s like, yeah, it’s really, I think it goes with what you were saying.
I was raised, I was raised Anglican. Okay. And so at a certain point in the Anglican service and probably in the Catholic service too, when you read the gospel, they take the gospel down, down the aisle and they might like read it in the middle, but everybody sort of sits straight ahead.
Nobody looks at the priest while he’s reading the gospel. It’s like behind you. And I wonder if like, does the Mennonite church do anything similar like that? Or is it just like that? You’re just there.
Everybody’s so used to just sitting, staring straight. I think that’s what it comes to. I think that you’re right with the muscle memory.
Like you’re, you’re in your seat, you look forward. That’s where everything happens. And Mennonites will sometimes do like, um, like the peace of Christ where they like stand up and shake each other’s hands.
But that’s kind of like the only time where you’re encouraged to get up. And so it’s, yeah, I think it is more of a rigid, trained focus towards the front, which then I think can be really disorienting when you have stuff around you that you’re supposed to be paying attention to. Oh, sure.
Like, like you don’t, your body is like, no, this is not what we do. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you, you said that the, the talkbacks were really intense at the church shows.
Interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Like the very first comment. So like, uh, a gentleman stood up to share his comment, which also like didn’t happen in the theatre space. Um, and was saying that he felt like we had crossed the line that we had like, um, taken the sacred and kind of made it profane.
Um, and we were kind of like, okay, like, thank you for sharing your opinion. Um, and I didn’t, I said something in response to it about like, yeah, we’re really wrestling with this stuff and we’re, we’re trying to kind of sit in the muck and wade through it together. But then that comment just like spurred a response.
And then a lot of the talkback was kind of in response to that, that comment. And then, so the audience kind of guided the talkback, which was really great. That’s, that’s great.
Yeah. Yeah. Now theatre of the beat.
Um, what was the, the Genesis, what was the birth of theatre of the beat? I mean, I think like many kind of small indie companies at first, it was just a way of producing our own work. Cause like, if you can’t find meaningful work, you got to make your own. And so early on in 2011, Rebecca Steiner, who is like one of the founders of the company, she was approached by someone at the university of Waterloo.
Um, they were building a new archive and the archivist who had been there was like retiring. So they were going to do a play about this guy, um, to be a fundraiser for the archive. But he was like a librarian or an archivist.
And I think they had reached out to a bunch of different playwrights and everyone was like, no, it sounds really boring. And then we were desperate. So we took it on and then we like, he was a draft dodger during the Vietnam war and he merged with Martin Luther King.
Yeah. We were doing this. Yeah.
Yeah. When I was with Keystone theatre, I saw you guys do that in Montreal. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. So that was, we, I guess that was 2012 then.
Yeah. So that was our first ever play. And then actually, so on that fringe tour, so like we went to Montreal, we had like pretty small houses, like traumas don’t do well.
Historical traumas don’t do well anywhere. But I think specifically in Montreal where it’s a big comedy scene. Um, and then we went to Edmonton and then Vancouver.
Yeah. And so we had these big gaps in between these fringes. And I’m, I think it was like churches heard about the show because they heard it took, so this guy was a Mennonite.
Right. And so it was like, people heard about the show being about a Mennonite draft dodger and churches started asking us, would you do the play at our church? And we were like, sure. Like we’re not doing anything.
Yeah. And then we would go from like, I don’t know, like maybe our biggest house was like 30 people in Montreal or something. Yeah.
And then we would go to this church and there would be like 40 to 70 people there. Yeah. And we were like, Whoa, this is crazy.
Yeah. And so then we kind of got tapped into this Mennonite community that would like, let us do the work that we were excited about. But because it was about social justice issues, the community was also like really excited about that.
Yeah. And yeah, now we’ve toured all across Canada and into the United States, like mostly connecting with Mennonite communities, the odd festival and stuff in theaters. We’ve toured to prisons.
But we kind of got this like very accidental audience really early on that’s now being like super loyal to our work. Well, I remember you guys, when you guys arrived in Edmonton, you had basically gone church to church to church. That’s right.
Yeah. Which is, you know, I mean, instead of like just driving across and like, you know, hand to mouth thing it, you know, you guys, you know, made a tour out of it. Yeah, really great.
I mean, we were still hand to mouth thing. Well, yeah, we were busy. Yeah.
Yeah. So cool. And like, yeah, there was a really positive response to the shows that we were doing.
Out of curiosity, did you find that having done the show in Montreal, and then, you know, going church to church to church? Did that did that help you when you got to Edmonton? I’m sure. Like, did you find that people had heard of this show a little more? Yeah, actually, you know, it did. Because then if like, if we went to a community and Mennonite saw it there, the Mennonite community is very insular.
Yeah. And like very connected. And so they would tell their cousins or sister or whatever in another city.
Yeah. And then they would come to see it. And then that yeah, that did spread a word of mouth.
So but by the time we got to Vancouver, our houses were bigger. Yeah. And I don’t know if that was all Mennonite focused or not.
But at least it created some form of conversation about the show. And then as actors, we were just feeling much more confident with it, because we had it under our belts more. Yeah.
And like, every space we would show up into a they weren’t theatre spaces, they were like literal church spaces, you would have to clear all the pulpits and stuff. But it also made us more versatile, kind of like jazz musicians, like we were in certain aspects, we would have to improvise every single show because like, oh, there’s like literally an organ behind us that we can’t move past. Yeah.
How are we going to block this? So it made us more versatile. I found that touring to French festivals is a great eye opener. And you have to be versatile.
Because every time you go to a space, it’s a new space. What do I have to adjust now? I remember touring with with Keystone and every theatre is like, so how do we do? Can we if I exit here? Can I get over there? No. Okay, so now we have to change all of our blocking.
Yeah. And things like that, just to make it work in a new space. Exactly.
And I mean that it’s exciting, because you can’t get into ruts. Like you can’t get into like habits. Like, there’s a little bit of that fear factor.
Yeah, that kind of keeps you on your edge. Like, like, okay, is this gonna work? Is this not gonna work? And I think that keeps it more like live and organic, which is everything that theatre should be in my mind. Yeah.
Did you I mean, outside of the Mennonite community? What was it like? Was there a difference in the way the show was perceived when you performed it? Like at the festivals? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, I think within the Mennonite community, there is an appreciation that someone was telling Mennonite stories, because the Mennonite community is kind of being like characterized, you know, like with horse and buggy, you know, electricity and stuff. Yeah.
And so to see a group of people actually tackling like pacifism, which is very important to the Mennonite community, because there’s a better draft dodger, in like a real way, like, we weren’t sure how the Mennonite community was going to respond to it. Because there’s like swearing, yeah, drug references. And there was like, the main character was actually an atheist.
But they seem really gracious for it. But then when we were turning into theatre communities, I think there was a similar interest in it being about this Mennonite draft dodger. And so that almost had like a, not like a kitsch factor, but there’s something interesting about it.
Yeah. And it also told the story of the Vietnam War from a very different perspective. Yes.
Yeah. But yeah, I think both audiences like responded fairly similarly. Like, there’s like maybe if there’s Mennonite jokes or something, the like, theatre audience wouldn’t get that.
But then pick up on the more artistic choices or more. Sure. Maybe other jokes or whatever.
Yeah. So it’s, yeah, it’s really interesting to see. We can actually kind of gauge who makes up an audience by where they’re responding.
It’s kind of like some kind of survey. Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
What is your theatre origin story? Like, why did you go into the theatre? Yeah, I think it was the only thing I was good at. How did you realize that you were good at it? Yeah. So I went to school, like I grew up in Stouffville, Ontario, which is like a small town.
It was all about hockey and all about rugby. Yeah. You could only ever take one arts course.
So when I was in grade nine, I didn’t really know about theatre. I mean, I did. I had done like school plays and stuff, but I wanted to be a cartoonist.
And so I took fine arts and my grades were like, pretty middle to low range. And my art teacher said, like, if you ever want to go to university, you have to bring your grades up. I think you should consider theatre.
I was like a little bit of a class clown, I guess. And so she kind of saw that performance element. And she talked to the guidance counselor and basically got them to bend the rules to let me take fine arts and theatre.
And so in grade 11, I got into an applied theatre course, which was like, basically me and like, all of the like rough kids from our school who just didn’t want to do other courses, like a legitimate, like, wasn’t too much passion for theatre, of course. But then I started doing impressions. And I wrote a play about Angus Young, the lead guitarist from ACDC.
And the class put it on. And then like, my grades got better. And then I got into like, I think they call it academic theatre the next year.
And I got connected with the improv team. And then my like, all of my averages, well, not all of my averages, but those marks helped put up my other averages. And then I was like, this is something I’m good at that I actually enjoy doing.
And I basically felt stupid throughout most of my like, school career. So I decided to do, I studied drama and history. And so I did like a double, double degree.
And then I ended up going to the University of Waterloo, which is not renowned for its theatre program. It’s not. I mean, you know, yeah, it actually, I feel like it, it was a very, like, comprehensive degree.
So like, I did lighting design, I did carves crew, I did playwriting course, I did an acting course, costume design. Yeah. Which at the time, like, I only wanted to do acting.
Yeah. But now that we’re touring our own shows, that not that breadth of knowledge has been so helpful. Yeah, absolutely.
And it’s one of those things that, that it’s only, it’s only fairly recently that theatre schools have been talking about self-producing. Yeah. Like, even if you, if you go into like the, the, the conservatory schools and stuff like that, they’re just really sort of starting to, to see that that’s a hugely important part.
It’s a reality. Yeah. But you already had that because the school made you take all those things.
Yeah, 100%. And like, I, I think that that’s the norm now for theatre. Like, I wasn’t really taught how to get work in theatre.
I wasn’t taught, like, even auditioning and stuff. I don’t think we even really talked about how to audition. It was like, this is how you can work on different texts.
This is how you can blah, blah, blah. But then like leaving, I didn’t really know what I was going to do, but I just put all this money and time into it. So yeah, no, a lot of the conservatory schools have like an auditioning course and stuff like that.
Like my school did, they still do. Where’d you go? I went to, I was at George Brown years ago, and they had like audition workshops and things like that. Wow, that’s very helpful.
I know. Well, I mean, it’s the, it’s the, but now like there’s, there’s the, the Theatre Ontario does their, has a day when all the theatre schools come in and people do their, do auditions. Yeah.
That’s right. Feedback and stuff like that, which is like, I don’t know if they prep people before that, but it’s a relatively recent thing. I think it totally gives people a bit of a, a bit of a background.
Yeah. How did you come together with the Theatre of the Beat people? So the majority of us met at the University of Waterloo. I had gotten to know two of them before, like, well, actually in Guatemala of all places.
But then at university, I was kind of, I wanted to like, I had done some activist work and I’d done some theatre work and in both kind of separate spheres, I didn’t really feel like, I don’t know, fully at home. Yeah. And so I wanted to try to create a theatre company that did a bit of both.
And so I found other people that were also interested in that. So Kimberly Walker, Rebecca Steiner, Ben Wirt, then I met him at like a soup fundraiser. And they were like talking about ways to raise money for this program.
And I was like, I don’t know. I just wrote a play. And then Ben was sitting across from me and I asked him if he acted.
I literally never talked to him before. And then he said, yes. And so it, I mean, it came together, like so many things without really any direction.
And I think we got pretty lucky. You’ve done pretty well. Yeah.
It’s been crazy, but we’re still going. Yeah. I mean, that’s really good.
I mean, you mentioned like you’ve taken shows to prisons, things like that. Like, did you, were you, did you approach the prisons? Did you have a show that you took to prisons? Like, how did that come about? Like performing in prisons? Yeah. We were touring a show that we wanted to create a show about restorative justice and kind of get people talking about the community’s role in creating healing after a crime.
And so we were touring the show, like mainly to Mennonite communities. And then in between all of our stops, we were like getting in touch with prisons and trying to get shows there and we were offering them for free. But it was still a bit of a process to get in.
Sure. And then I think, I don’t know the exact number, but I think it was probably about eight prisons that tour. We went into like all across Canada.
And it was amazing. Like most of the audiences there had never seen a play before, but were like so happy that people were taking the time to like, that they weren’t being forgotten. And so like, like rapt attention, like really great conversations after, like some of the best talkbacks we’ve ever had, especially because this play was like about them.
Like it was about, it was about crime. It was about kind of healing after crime. And yeah, I mean, some of the most exciting theatrical moments in my life, like I was like playing someone who is incarcerated, like in the kind of orange jumpsuit, like delivering my monologues to this like group of people who it was actually their story.
Yeah. It was really intense. But that, I think that experience like really inspired a lot of us.
And we now have been doing theatre workshops in Grand Valley Institute for Women. It’s a women’s federal penitentiary. And we go in every Wednesday and they’re like creating a show with them inside.
And like we bring in audiences to see the show. And so it’s like, and there’s so many talented actors. Like it’s been really amazing.
When you say they’re like, just like just naturals, like they’ve just like needed somebody to say, here’s a stage. I think so. Wow.
I mean, a lot of incarcerated people are like on the margins and have probably had to learn some level of performance to get by in terms of like, you know, faking something or just a survival techniques. Yeah. And yeah, I’ve been amazed by the like that natural talent.
I mean, diction and projection is not always the best. Constantly telling people to face the audience. But those are things people can learn.
Those are learnable things. Yeah. So it’s been, it’s been really cool.
And just to see how excited people are, like our assistant director, our stage manager, they’re both inmates. The whole cast is inmates are like, we have like an acting coach that works with people who’s one of the inmates. We have like our set and prop designers and like, yeah, it’s been really cool.
Yeah. Have you, what have you learned in working with the inmates that you don’t think you could or you wouldn’t? Like, what’s something that you learned from working with inmates? Well, prison is like a place where it’s not safe to show emotion. It’s like, it’s in your best interest to not wear your heart on your sleeve.
I think emotion is often paired with vulnerability. And vulnerability is like seen as like a weakness in many institutions. So there’s been this slow process of getting people to trust each other and then kind of open up to each other.
But like the biggest thing is just kind of putting yourself out there because there’s also this risk of failure, which is like really intimidating, especially when you’ve been kind of told that you’re worthless or not able to do anything. Yeah. And so like, if I’ve learned anything, it’s just this like inspiring idea that like, when you give people the chance, they’ll impress you.
Like, there’s just, there’s been so many beautiful performances. Like, I’ve just felt so proud of a lot of those, like the women are participating. But like, also just like people are super complicated.
Like some people tell us what they did. Other people don’t. But like, they’re just bringing it.
They’re super passionate, which is like really inspiring. That’s really awesome. It’s awesome.
I don’t know if that was me answering the question. I think it’s a great answer. I think it’s a great answer.
Yeah. So with working on Church 2 as the dramaturge, now, maybe there’s people listening who don’t know what a dramaturge is. So let’s define what that is.
Yeah. I think it’s different for everybody. It’s true.
It’s true. If you ask like three people what a dramaturge is, they’ll give you three different answers. What’s your definition of a dramaturge? My definition would be so I’m like, I work with playwrights.
And I kind of worked a little bit as a production dramaturge. But I would say, kind of like a theatre consultant, who tries to understand what the goal of the playwright is. And then when the playwright is so ingrained in it, that they lose focus of the piece entirely, or partially, that I’m there to kind of like, remind them what their initial goals were to kind of see if they’re still on task with that, or if they feel like their goals have changed.
Yeah. And then kind of try to help to like, mold it when I can gently. It’s yeah, I mean, I’ve certainly never been trained as a dramaturge.
I’ve worked as a playwright, and I’ve worked with other playwrights. So I think it’s kind of bled out of that a little bit. But so with Church 2, like we had seven different playwrights who we had approached, who had had kind of, you know, who wanted to write about these topics.
And so asking them, what themes do you want to look at in terms of sexual abuse, and kind of like patriarchal ideology within Christianity, and how that kind of manifests. And so we kind of got the topics that we wanted. And then we saw where the topics overlapped.
And then saying, okay, well, we’ve kind of got this one covered already. Is there anything else you would want to write about? No. Okay, like, how can we put a different focus on it? Yeah.
And then trying to kind of make these plays a cohesive unit, because there’s seven playlets that kind of come together in Church 2. So trying to like, hold this greater vision, but then also understanding who our audience is. And so like, if we want to meet our audience with where they’re at, but like, slightly further than where they’re at, so we can push them. What can we say? What can’t we say? So yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s a really complicated role.
It sounds like it was a real challenge to put it all together. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, not, not a challenge, necessarily. And that like, I wasn’t like, I don’t, there was moments where I was like, is this gonna work? Yeah, yeah. But I think the challenge came in trying to hold this one product, like, you know, production.
Yeah. Also, like, understanding that for a lot of the playwrights, these stories were really personal. Yeah.
So like, even just to give feedback and stuff was sometimes I didn’t know, you know, how delicate it was for someone. But then also the fact that we were working with the Mennonite Church to put this play on was like, we always also kind of checking in with them, like, hey, we’re gonna do a story about this. How do you feel about that? And then trying to take that feedback, and then the director’s feedback.
It felt a lot like mediation. Yeah, I would say. Did the church ever say, no, we don’t want you to talk about that? Yeah.
Yeah. But I would say they were also pretty receptive to like, pushback. Okay.
And so I would bring their notes to the writers, I would ask them how they felt about the changes or suggestions, the writers would tell me what they’re willing to change what they weren’t, I would bring that back to them and say, Okay, they’re not going to change this. How do you feel about that? And so I was basically just hopping between playwright, producer, and sometimes director, like all over the place. So and then so Matt White, the director, he was also working with the scripts, like while they got in the room, and we workshopped it.
So then he would have more kind of like, theatrical feedback, right? Where I was more focused on the content. And so then my role kind of shifted. Yeah.
And then, yeah, it was it was, it was a long process. It was about a year and a half. Okay.
But it was a good process. It’s tiring. Yeah.
How, in terms of like, comparing the creation of this show with some of the creations of other shows? Did this one take longer? Was this one a bit more of a challenge to put together? How long do have your previous shows taken for at the end of the beat? Yeah, I think typically about a year. The two shows ago that we did was about a year and a half. Yeah, I think so.
I in some ways underestimated how much work it would be because we said to the playwrights, we just want you to write a 15 minute scene. Yeah. And then initially, we’re actually thinking about only showing four of the scenes at any given night and kind of mixing them up, right? We decided to show them all.
Yeah. But the Yeah, the level of rewrites and the kind of back and forth with each actor, or sorry, each playwright. And then me trying to hold all the different ideas in my head at any given time.
Yeah. It. I’m glad that we gave it more time than I thought we needed.
Because if we’d only given it a year, I don’t think it would have been ready. Because there was Yeah, it was really intense for the writers to work on these stories. And so the feedback process was like, we had to be delicate, gentle.
And we’ve got really strong works. So I think I think that we gave it time and made it a more holistic process was like really beneficial in the end. Did you ever take feedback from the actors back to the playwrights? Well, so I, for the most of the rehearsal period, I wasn’t actually okay, too present, like in the room, Matt, if he kind of saw something that was problematic to him, he would kind of bring it to me.
Yeah. And that or bring it to the playwrights themselves. So I don’t know how much of that feedback sure was actor driven, or was director driven.
But I mean, the actors were really, were really good and really talented. And so I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these suggestions also came from them. You guys are doing a couple of performances in Toronto.
Yeah. Are they at are they at churches as well? No, no, there’s gonna be one performance at a church at Toronto United Mennonite Church. Okay.
In November. And then at the end of November, so I think it’s like November 31, December 1, and December 2, we’re at the Assembly Street Theatre on Queen. Oh, the Assembly, Assembly Theatre.
Yeah. So a great little space. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, very intimate. Yeah. Yeah.
And so it’ll be interesting to, to take it back to the theatre. So we’ll basically have bookended our tour with theatres. When you were the opening of it in Kitchener, it was a pretty big theatre that you were in.
Yeah, yeah. So you will go from like in a theatre, a large theatre to a super intimate, which would be, I can imagine it being a little bit different. 100%.
With the audience quite so close. Yeah. And the stage is small.
Yeah. So like, and it will probably be not church, like community in the audience. Yeah.
Like, I think it’ll be more theatre audience. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, once again, I just have no idea how people are gonna respond.
But that’s kind of like what’s exciting about it. That is, I mean, in a way, one usually, especially when it’s a new work, because a new work, you never, you never really know how it’s going to go over. Yeah.
And every audience is different. And every time we take it to a new location, it changes it. And that’s just one of the things about theatre is that you never quite know how it’s going to go.
Yeah. So just generally exciting, I think, to take that, especially having gone to like, you’re going primarily, you’re going to churches, and then back to a theatre, which is, which is, it’ll be interesting, because if, if, if the, the church pew sitting holds, it’ll be interesting to take it back to the, to the, to an audience at the end. Yeah.
Theatre going people. Well, so when we opened it, we actually, Matt changed the state, we put the chairs away from in the theatre. And we kind of like made the space to feel more like a church.
Yeah, everyone was on the same level as the actors. Okay. And we kind of almost made pew like setups.
Okay. So that was, I think that was interesting to then go to churches. I think it was good for the actors to have that.
Yeah. But like assembly, we can’t change the seating. No.
So it will be Yeah, like a black box kind of studio feel. And so I think, yeah, it is exciting. Yeah.
I have no clue. Is there anything you’re working on writing? Yeah. Yeah, I’m working on a play right now called bomb threat, baby.
Okay. So it’s like a guy who he’s engaged to be married, his fiancee leaves him, he takes this job at this kind. So it’s a little bit surreal.
Yeah. He takes this job at this kind of secret government surveillance office in Ottawa. It’s like this warehouse where you once you take on a shift there, you can’t leave for five years.
And he starts he’s in charge of like keyword searches. Okay. When like bomb comes up or like, I don’t know, Al Qaeda or something.
He kind of monitors these conversations. But as he grows kind of lonelier and lonelier, he starts to use this technology to find a new date. So he starts basically online dating with all of the government’s top surveillance technology.
And then kind of learning about the interests of these people that he thinks are potential possibilities. And so he’s kind of abusing this power. So yeah, it’s it’s a dark comedy.
I wanted to kind of look at patriarchy as like a father that knows best. So both with government surveillance, kind of doing that. And also this kind of like, reading into other people’s lives or taking liberty over other people’s lives.
So I’m just starting draft five. I’ve been working on it for like almost five years. So I mean, I’ve been busy with other projects.
But this is the one that I just keep coming back to. And I’m pretty excited about it. So I was it took me it took me eight years to write the commandment.
Okay. And the only way that I think I finished it was by saying I know it needs to be performed. Yeah.
Because I think I could have just kept writing it. And you know, going back to it and tweaking it and things like that. Yeah.
Have you ever have you do you find the deadline setting a deadline for yourself and like where it has to be performed helpful? Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah.
Everything we’ve done with theatre, the beat, we’ve created a deadline saying we are going to open on this weekend. And then we have that to work towards. Yeah, I think.
I think working under pressure is helpful. Yeah. I mean, it creates for much more stressful environment.
But that’s also like, then we know the end, we know the end dates. So there’s only so many changes you can make up into that point. Yeah.
And with bomb threat, baby, I’ve just been writing it for myself. Like it’s not something I necessarily think theatre, the beat would produce. But so I’ve just, I’ve just been writing to please myself in some way, which has been like really liberating.
Yeah. But then also without any kind of avenue for it, it does constantly get rewritten. Oh, sure.
I’m just like really hard on it, which is I think a good thing. But yeah, I could probably use an end date. Have you ever had people read it? Like, have you had people like groups of people sit down Yeah, we actually on one of our tours, our actors kind of read it in the backseat of the van.
And so I could listen to it. So that was super helpful. My housemates read it to me at one time.
Yeah. And I think what was helpful about that is the stuff that’s in my head that I thought was in the story wasn’t there. And there was like so many gaps that people weren’t getting.
And I was like, oh, that’s because this character and then realizing that that was nowhere present in the story. It’s embarrassing that you can miss those things, but I totally do. But that’s exactly why you need people to read it out to you so that and then to talk with you about it.
I’ve had people read stuff I’ve written and then had these real great conversations about what they felt didn’t work. And I was like, okay, so you felt it didn’t work. And it’s not there, then I have to find a way to put it in because I know what’s happening.
But obviously, I’m missing something. Yeah. But then trying to put it in in a way that doesn’t feel forced, like often it’s the subtle things that you want to suggest or lead someone to without hitting them over the head.
That’s where I then start to get really clumsy. I mean, you could be like, oh, I’ll just have them say the thing. And then that works for a little while.
And then over time, it’s just got to be what it’s going to be. I think sometimes it’s okay to be clumsy now and then it’s just like as long as it’s not all clumsy. Definitely.
And I think in the clumsiness to even just to give it like if this information is missing and to just give it to a character just to have them say it. Then that can almost work as a placeholder because once it’s on the page, you at least know it exists. And then the next time you pass it through, you can diffuse that a little bit, soften the edges of the very over the head statement.
And also having like when it’s there and somebody, some other actor reads it and you have like people talking about all this stuff, somebody might just sort of drop the thing that unlocks it, which is always like this amazing thing when you get a bunch of brilliant actors and somebody just goes, well, why don’t you just this? And you’re like, what? Of course, why did I see that? Which is an amazing thing. And it’s like that moment, it’s like because you’re so close to it, like it’s impossible to see those things. Well, that’s coming back to the importance of the dramaturgy.
I’ve been so close to a thing that I can’t see it anymore. And that’s like, that’s what you need that outside eye to go, no, okay, so here’s what I’m getting from it. Yeah.
And you can have your mind blown. It’s like, oh, that’s not what I meant. You know? Yeah.
You know, outside eyes are super important. Yeah. There’s a lot of writers that don’t like dramaturges.
I think they find it stifling, but I think they’re just not working with good dramaturges. I think that might be it. Because I think they’re afraid that a dramaturge is going to say, no, what you needed to do is this.
And I kind of think a good dramaturge will just ask you questions. Totally. Sometimes leading questions.
Yeah, leading questions. But I mean, it’s got to be a leading question to at least get you to draw you to where, you know, what the problem is, you know? And I don’t think a good dramaturge is ever going to say, well, no, because the way that you have to go with this is this, you know, but maybe they’ve worked with bad dramaturges or they have an idea of what it is. Sure.
Sure. Are you a question asker? Sure. Yeah.
Yeah. I will try my best. When you’re dramaturging, do you have tricks to get through the playwrights, sometimes ego, sometimes reluctance to take? Because, you know, at a certain point you either think it’s bullshit or you think it’s brilliant.
And there’s sometimes nothing in between. Yeah. I think there’s, yeah, definitely.
I think the way that I try to ask questions is like Socratic method. Yeah. Kind of like to like, I mean, it’s maybe a little devious, but to kind of make someone think it was their idea to like lead someone towards something.
Because, yeah, I think that’s just easier to navigate depending on how well I know the writer. Also, like I’ll be more forward or more frank with a writer who I’ve worked with before because I know what is helpful to them or I think the biggest thing for me is like checking my own, like, Oh, it’d be so cool if this ended with, you know, this scene to try to put that aside to try to keep protecting the writer’s vision. But then also knowing when somebody is stuck and needs other ideas or other suggestions.
But I think the questions that I would focus on dramaturgically are like I’m trying to understand where the playwright is coming from in saying what they’re saying, and leaving out what they’re leaving out and adding in what they’re adding in. Because sometimes I’m just simply asking the question that the playwright realizes that it’s not necessary or that something is missing. Because they just legit didn’t think about it.
Yeah. Awesome. That’s good.
Yeah. Well, that’s about time. Thank you.
Thanks so much for coming in today. Thanks for having me, Phil. This is great.
Thanks. This has been a Homebody Productions production.
