Jacqui Du Toit

An award nominee for the Prix Rideau award and Capital Critics, Jacqui Du Toit is an international theatrical performer and storyteller from South Africa. She has a B.A in Theatre and Performance from the University of Cape Town and has been working extensively as a professional actress, storyteller and arts educator. Her experience covers a wide range of fields including: writing, directing, acting, movement and puppetry.

Jacqui immigrated to Canada in 2011 and now resides in Ottawa, where she is the Co-creator of The Origin Arts and community centre and the Creator of 8th Generation Performance. With both of her companies, Jacqui has created numerous community engaged theatrical storytelling productions, including IT IS GOOD – 2018, VALLEY OF STONE – 2017, THE HOTTENTOT VENUS – UNTOLD – 2016

Her most recent theatre performance was in THE OMNIBUS BILL by DARRAH TEITAL, Tactics Theatre festival 2019, directed by Esther Jun and THE DROWNING GIRLS at the GCTC 2018, directed by Bronwyn Steinberg.

Twitter: @generation8th
Instagram: @jacqui.dutoit

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Transcript

Welcome to Stageworthy, a podcast about Canadian theatre and the people who make it, hosted by me, Phil Rickaby. This is episode 306, and my guest is performer and storyteller Jackie Du Toit. I’ve been thinking a lot about being in a theatre with an audience, and I’ve been thinking about that ever since that video I told you about a few weeks ago that I saw where it was the first performance of Hadestown, coming back after the Broadway closure.

And I’ve been thinking about it with every video of a packed house, applauding the return of a show, and I’ve seen a lot of those. And what I’ve been thinking about is that I don’t know if I’m ready to be back in an audience, sitting in close proximity to other audience members. When I think about that, I find myself feeling anxious.

Because as much as I want to be back in the theatre, I’m going to need some time. I’m going to need a period of adjustment before I’m comfortable with that. We’ve spent 19 months avoiding proximity with other people, and that’s become my default.

So I’m not ready to go shoulder-to-shoulder with other audience members just yet. The thought of that makes my palms sweat. Fortunately, what I’ve been seeing here in Canada is that most theatres aren’t planning to pack in the audience like they are in the States.

At least not right away. And I think that’s good. Ease the audience back into being in the room before packing them in.

God, I know I’m going to need something like that. You know, one of the things that I’ve enjoyed about doing this podcast is being able to meet artists that I didn’t know before, whose work was new to me. And that’s the case with Jackie Du Toit.

Jackie is a storyteller and performer, and a nominee for the Prix Rideau Award, and the co-creator of the Origin Arts and Community Centre, and the creator of 8th Generation Performance. Here’s our conversation. If you could, for me, describe your artistic practice.

Like, if you had to give somebody an elevator pitch of you as an artist, how would you describe yourself? I am a multidisciplinary theatre arts creatrix. And if somebody on that elevator was like, and what does that mean? How would you answer? I act, I dance, I write, I direct, I produce. And I think outside the box.

I paint. I am an all-round living artist and a continuous creator. So that’s why the creatrix is just outside the box of the matrix, I suppose.

And also as a woman, creatrix. And, you know, I’ve always had my hands continuously blessed to be able to be working in the art fields. And I am super blessed with all the gifts that I’ve been given.

And I just keep working on and pursuing it. You know, it just never ends. And it’s a beautiful, beautiful thing.

So that’s why I’m a, I guess, a multidisciplinary theatre and arts creatrix. You know, I think, I mean, tell me if you agree with this, David, because I sort of feel like once you start, because creativity is a muscle. So once you start working that muscle, it opens up other avenues.

And if you keep working, if you’re creative in one area and you start painting or sculpting, it’s a different, like, physical muscle, but it still seems to open up more of that creative muscle. Totally, totally. And it’s also about, it’s the same as learning a language, right? You use that muscle, you learn one language, and then it becomes easier to learn another language and another language.

And next thing you know, you’re capable of understanding and learning up to seven, eight, ten languages. You find that all over when you travel. I’ve been lucky to be able to travel with many artists.

And it’s basically the same thing. So yeah, you’re right. My grandfather was a speaker of four languages.

My brother is constantly picking up languages. Every time I turn around, he has a new one. The only ones he hasn’t been able to master.

He’s like, I tried Mandarin, I couldn’t do it. But other than that, he’s very gifted with languages. I did not capture that gift.

It takes me a lot more to pick up languages. No, it’s tricky. And it’s interesting that you are asking about what label would you give yourself? And how would you describe your work? And that’s been something that I was sitting with this past weekend because I was talking to a friend of mine.

And she was saying, you just do so many things, and you’re so good at all these things. And I was like, I know. And I’m grateful, but it’s hard to what label do I give myself? What box can I put myself in so that the normal people can understand? Yeah, that is the problem is those boxes become not necessarily useful for us.

No. But they’re useful for other people to sort of understand us. Yes, yes.

And so I’m still working on the label on the box for the other people to understand. But yeah, it’s a working title. Yeah, I find there’s more and more people who are willing to put more hyphens in their descriptions.

Many, many years ago, when I was in theatre school, they told us, just say that you’re an actor. If you can do something else, don’t tell anybody. I got that.

If you’re a fight director, don’t do that. If you can stage manage, oh my God, don’t tell anybody that. If you can dance, maybe that might help.

But mostly just say that you’re an actor. And now nobody does that anymore because everybody is so many things. We all hyphenate our titles and our descriptors.

And I think that that’s actually more accurate for who we are as artists. Yeah. No, I totally hear you on that because I was told the same thing.

And for a long time I was like, no, I’m just an actor. I’m just an actor. So many of my friends would be like, no, you’re not.

You’re not just an actor. And maybe that’s the box, the hyphen. We are the hyphens.

We do it all. Was it difficult for you to get to the point where you were starting to add your hyphens and becoming more than, becoming, quote unquote, more than just an actor? Yes. And that’s, and it still is because when I teach at various schools and I get hired by contract, I actually teach at this one magic school.

And by magic, it’s for, like they do, like the moon rituals and the full moon rituals and stuff. Oh, okay. Okay.

Like that kind of magic school. And I’m a professor and I teach, it’s kind of like a Harry Potter vibe. And I teach shape-shifting.

And it was interesting because the principal of the school tried to introduce me to another professor. And she was like, this is Jackie. And she does, and she looked at me and she’s like, you just do it all.

And I was like, yeah, I do. And I’m still working on more. And she’s like, wow, does it ever stop? And I’m like, no, it’s the flow.

Anyway. So, yeah. In terms of adding those hyphens, was there something that precipitated being comfortable with that? What was your journey to being comfortable adding those to your descriptors? At first I didn’t want to, because it was just so complicated.

I was like, because then people would, I would get a contract for writing a script for a company, a children’s play. And then I’d be introduced as a playwright, or I would get introduced as a puppeteer, or I would get introduced as a traditional Zulu dancer, or, you know, and it just, yeah, it actually didn’t get easier. It just got more and more complicated.

And so now I’m just like multidisciplinary theatre creatrix. That’s what it is. I think it’s interesting, the idea of it becoming more complicated and, you know, maybe we don’t want to add those titles, but there’s something, I think that there’s something more confident about being able to say, I’m all these things, rather than diminishing to just, I’m just these few things, you know? I don’t know.

Does it take confidence? What do you think? I think, you know, I think it does, because I have to tell you that for many, many years, um, it took me a long time before my artistic self came before my day job self. So when people would ask me, you know, oh, what do you do in that way that people do? Um, I would answer, oh, I do tech support. And it took a long time before, and my girlfriend at the time would like look at me after we say, you’re not, you don’t tech support, you’re a writer performer.

And I was being like, oh, yeah, I know. But, and it took a long time for me to be able to confidently say, I’m a writer and performer. And that was, that was part of the journey.

But it was, like, it was somehow I was insecure in saying that. And it seemed safer to say, my joe job. Why? Why did you think it was safer? Oh, because normal people, because muggles, as they say, um, there, you know, it was like, I don’t know, there was like an insecurity about admitting my creative self to people who may not be creatives.

And in some ways, you just you, it feels like you’re exposing too much, especially in like the work world or outside of the, um, the arts world. You’re too vulnerable saying that. Yeah, that’s true.

I don’t have that problem anymore. I’m good now. But it took it.

It was part of the journey to get there. Yes. So what do you what do you label yourself now? What’s your what’s your title? I am a writer, performer, nerd and podcaster, though, I’d like to throw in the nerd thing, because that’s part of who I am, too.

Love it. Yay. Good for you.

Yeah. So that I don’t even mention the joe job anymore would be when I’m describing what I do. That’s part of my journey is getting to that point where the artistic self is, is more than the joe job, because I’m more than that.

Yes, you are. Yes, you are. And we’ll keep getting, you know, and as you as a creator starts, you know, evolving more with the podcast and with your technology, it will just keep getting better and better.

You might have to just add more to your title. Probably. I mean, and I don’t mind doing that now because I feel confident about all the things that I’m adding.

Beautiful. And what is what you sell? So go ahead. No, I’m saying like, what did you do for many artists? You know, we can talk about this, that because I think that’s something that a lot of artists sit with, you know, that they feel that we should choose one thing in order to fit in, to be accepted by what you call the muggles.

Right. And, and, you know, cause if, if I don’t say I do the one thing, if I say I do all these things, you know, you know, we as artists, I don’t know about you, but I’ve experienced, you know, the eyes rolling or just like, oh, that’s interesting. And then move on, you know, or like, you know, immediately the, you can see the shift of, oh God, a struggling artist.

Can’t put a title to her name. And it’s, it’s a, it is a process. It is a journey and it is a beautiful healing journey for many creators, creatrixes out there who are still trying to navigate the world of creativity.

And it’s not an easy path, but it is a beautiful one, you know, and if we can keep helping each other and sharing our story, I have a saying with my storytelling, share the love and tell the story because that’s how we learn from each other, you know. So thank you for sharing your story. Yes.

That’s one of the reasons why I started this podcast like five years ago was in addition to the fact that I felt like Canadian voices, are not often heard in the media landscape. Most of the people that I’ve spoken to, they’ve never done an interview before. A lot of the times we don’t, we’re not used to being interviewed, things like that.

But I also felt like it’s an opportunity to ask people the questions and performers, the questions that we often don’t ask. For example, how did we, how did you find this profession? How did you come to do this? I love those stories. I love the stories about how people came into the theatre, how they found their artistic self.

Those are the things that I find super interesting about everyone’s story. Yes, it is. It is because each one is so unique and especially with the theatre world, it’s like the theatre find you or did you find it? You know, it’s such a beautiful world.

So on the topic of that particular question, I will word it to you like this. What is your theatre origin story? Ooh, I like it. What is my theatre origin story? Could you elaborate? What do you want to know, Phil? Sure.

I mean, what was your entry into the theatre and how did you decide or how did you find that it would become your life’s work? I didn’t. I didn’t think it was going to be my life’s work. I met the stage at the tender age of nine.

I was a dancer from the age of three. My mother put me in ballet, modern and tap dancing. And I come from a really small town in South Africa known as Kimberley.

And my sister, there was not much doing this small town and my sister was doing dance. And obviously I wanted to do it. And so when I was nine years old, we had our big production on stage and it was this choreographer from America who came in to work with us.

And I was taken. There were everything about it, the backstage, the snacks in between, the makeup, the girls sitting together, the waiting, the disappearing into this world, forgetting about everything else that was happening on the outside. And this was all that mattered.

That was my first taste of it. And then during Apartheid, when Apartheid ended, we were allowed to go to white schools. And when I went to this school, this Model C school, the art teacher that I was doing art with looked at me in the one day and she said, how would you like to play Captain Hook in the school play? And I was like, yeah.

She’s like, we have auditions. I would really like you to come and audition. And I did.

And I got the part and I had more lines than Peter Pan. I remember being so nervous. And that was the other little taste.

And I was like, okay, that was fun. That’s it. And then I decided to go to a boarding school just outside my hometown to pursue my career in painting because I want to do fine arts.

And during the first three months of my time at this boarding school, I experienced extreme bullying and racism and all kinds of things. And through it, I somehow had to be punished. And it was during this punishment that I had to do community service.

And part of that community service was working with the theatre. And Father Danton, bless his heart. He has such a great heart.

And he just, him and his wife were involved in the theatre there. And they just opened their arms and they’re like, it’s okay. We understand.

And they were just so forgiving. And they were like, don’t worry. Maybe you can express yourself here in the theatre and it’s safe.

And I did. And I just started winning all these awards. And I was like, oh, this is something that I think I’m good at.

That’s fun. But I never, ever thought I would turn it into a career because my heart was set on being a fine artist. And then when I finished high school, like in South Africa, you finish till grade 12.

And I got my entrance into university. I looked at the two options and my portfolio, my art portfolio, when they marked it, was dropped by one mark, which meant that I couldn’t do the finance program. I would have to like go back to school.

And so I was like, okay, well, my other option was the theatre and performance program, which is an intensive program. It’s not just theatre and drama. They audition people throughout the whole of South Africa and only take 20 students for the theatre and performance program at the University of Cape Town.

And I auditioned and then I got in and I was like, well, I guess this is my path. And that’s the relationship myself and theatre have. And it’s a beautiful, beautiful relationship.

So it sounds like, it sounds like theatre was very intensely important to expressing yourself. It was and still is. Yeah, it still is.

Once I Googled your name and I always thought this will do that just as a quick thing. And one of the first things that I saw was an article that said something along the lines of when you arrived in Ottawa, you’d never seen so many white people. What? There’s like, just like the preview or something along those lines.

And so I was like amused by that. What brought you to Canada from South Africa? And what made you choose Ottawa? Oh, I didn’t choose Ottawa. Ottawa chose me.

Oh, okay. It’s a whole long story. But in a nutshell, I was doing great with my career in Cape Town, but I felt I needed a break.

And I had a friend who was a choreographer and he said, hey, there’s a circus that’s having auditions. Do you want to learn Zulu dancing? And I was like, yeah, sure. Why not? I don’t have any, you know, anything lined up.

Like I’m doing auditions, but nothing’s coming through yet. So let’s see. Yeah, maybe I need to get away from Cape Town for a year.

I think that would be good for me. And I joined a circus. And through the first, through the six months of training, we learned working the aerial silks, working acrobats, and learning Zulu dancing.

And the circus travelled to Canada. And it was combined with Canadian Cirque artists as well. So it was this big collaboration and arrived in Ottawa.

And that was that experience that you did. When we got here, because you have to understand like South Africa, like, you know, if you know my full story, which is my book is going to be coming out, you will see that, you know, the stories that we attach to, like growing up during apartheid, what that was like, especially for me as a colored woman, you know, it was really interesting, like this, this foreign world, like, this is only stuff we saw in movies, you know, and even when I went to the States, there was just more people of colour there. And so I was really shocked, because I was, I was actually scared.

So I was like, there’s too many white people, I don’t know, are they gonna kidnap me? I remember walking with my backpack in front of me, just like, so nervous and scared and being like, I don’t know, can I trust these people? Like, is everything okay? Like, I was just, I was super, it was a new world for me. Because in South Africa, there’s just so many different people of different races, different cultures, languages. I mean, in South Africa, there’s 11 official languages, plus all the other different languages, different parts of Africa.

So I think that’s what I was used to just like, this multi diverse world. And coming here, it was just, it was, it was very, very, very white. And I didn’t know.

That was my experience. Yeah, no, I, I always I mean, you know, I’ve, I grew up in in around the Toronto area, where I always feel like it’s very diverse city. I mean, it’s, I think there are places in the States, like New York, I think is more diverse and things like that.

But I’m used to seeing a multicultural world around me. So when I’ve travelled in to other places in Canada, like Ottawa, and some places at West and on the Maritimes, I’m often shocked and feeling out of place when I see just a sea of white. So in some ways, I understand that discomfort, not quite to the extreme, but like, it’s, to me, it always feels strange when I go to a place, and it is a sea of white people, and I don’t see any colour.

Yeah, it’s like something’s not right here. I don’t know. Yeah, but I was great.

I love Ottawa. Ottawa is now my home away from home. It’s my other home.

I love it here. It’s got such a rich history, such beautiful people. And there’s this, even though it’s a government town, there’s, you know, there’s this, if you just scratch the surface just a little bit, you’ll find all these incredible artists that live in the city that are just making things, creating things, you know, just, it really is a beautiful place to be in.

And it’s where the three rivers met, you know, it’s where the three rivers meet, and it was the gathering space for many indigenous, you know, tribes throughout the time, like they would come and meet by the falls. And it’s just, it’s a beautiful space. It’s interesting, because I think the perception is, and I’ve sort of experienced this, because if you just go to Ottawa, if you’re, especially if you’re from somewhere else, you feel, especially on like a weekday, you feel like, oh, it’s five o’clock, there’s nothing to do.

And obviously, there’s more to than just everything closing, seeming to close down at five o’clock. It’s just that, as the average tourist going to a place, and just sort of relying on whatever it says, you know, on travelocity, or whatever surface thing you’re using to discover a place, you’re not seeing the full picture. And you have to, it’s almost like you need a guide who’s from there to sort of, like, show you what’s under the surface.

Yes, my friend’s actually working on an app. That is that way. It’s perfect.

You connect with someone who’s from the city who wants to be a tour guide. And you put yourself on this app. And you’re like, yeah, you can connect with me and you get reviews from others.

And I, I will meet you here. And I can take you here, you know, and all these different places, but also just talk about your experience being in this being in the city. Did you grow up here? You know what I mean? Like, it’s so I find for me travelling when I go to other cities like Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, and just like in and around Canada, and also just around the world.

I always love knowing that there’s somebody there that I know that’s gonna show me where I can get the best, you know, the best hot dog or the best poutine and all the best. I don’t know, like, this is where all the artists after, after the theatre show, you know, it’s this little dingy hole in the middle of some way. And you know, it’s got good vibes.

So yeah. Yeah, to me that that would be like a really valuable information as a traveller, like, where do the artists go? After the show? Where do we where do the theatre people go? What what do I not know? That’s not in I don’t know, like, for doors book of this city? You know, things that only a local could tell you? As far as Sir, just just, you know, something more than than than what’s on the surface, like, if you pick up like, for doors book of the city, and the tour book, you can see all of these things that are tourist based, but they don’t tell you what somebody who lives there knows where all of the interesting things are the truly interesting things are how to navigate like a local. Like a local I like that.

Yes. Yeah. I always feel like when I go to a place that what I want is I want to, I want to see it.

I don’t want to, like, sure, I’ll do a touristy thing or two, but I want to walk the neighborhoods. I want to eat at local restaurants. I want to do I want to be in the city.

Not just what the tourism board thinks I should see. Totally. Yeah.

I’m the same. Yeah. Now you mentioned a book.

Tell me about tell me about your book. And when can we expect to see it? Oh, no, that’s I’m not gonna go for about that. That’s all you’re gonna know.

Because it’s, it is. Okay. Okay.

Okay. The book is like, just a little taste, just a little taste. I understand.

No, the book is just my journey. And I think it, you know, as it’s, as I’m busy working on it, there’s just so many parts of me that is unfolding. You know, I have, like, I can talk to you now about theatre and how I ended up in Ottawa, with theatre, but it’s more than just that, you know, or how I came to Ottawa with theatre.

It’s so layered, it’s so much deeper than that, or, you know, my experience in Cape Town or growing up in South Africa, and what it was like to be, you know, being this colored woman and being an artist. It, you know, it really is such a layered journey. And the book is, is also like, but also like, you know, with books, it’s like, you have to still like, scratch and pull things out.

And you’re like, nope, can’t take that. Gotta put that in. So it is a process.

And I’m loving it. I’m working with a great team of people. And hopefully, hopefully the book will be out by next year, the end of next year.

But it’s a working process. That’s awesome. That’s awesome.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Now you are, one of the things that you do is storytelling. And you, you tell stories, you tell stories that, that are from just from South Africa and from, from, you know, from Africa. When you’re, and is it you’re mostly doing that in schools? Is that, is that the primary focus of the storytelling? Or do you do it like everywhere? I do it everywhere.

I work with so many different groups all around with the elderly, with healing lessons. I’ve created a program with healing workshops around storytelling. And as well as working with schools and working with youth.

So, and again, like there’s so many different layers, like there’s the performance aspect of it, which I think, you know, I’ve done festivals and I’ve toured and, you know, it’s, it’s a great big performance. But when I do my workshops, it’s a little bit more detailed and there’s a lot more, it’s more of a healing journey than, than just like, oh, a storytelling workshop. And there’s also like the storytelling workshop where you do have perform where I made it specifically for artists, for performers who would like to tap deeper into the art of storytelling and how, and giving and sharing different tools on how to, you know, take the comedy to the next level.

Or, you know, even if it’s giving speeches or sharing stories with, or, you know, even with in acting. So yeah. So I do it.

Is there something about storytelling that a lot of theatre practitioners, story, actors mistake about, about storytelling? Is there something that they have a misconception about it in general? I think there’s always been that debate between storyteller and actor, theatre, actor. And there’s a really thin line between the two. And it’s more of a knowing, and you can’t really describe it because I’ve been, I’ve been walking this tightrope where I’ve had storytellers come to me and being like, you’re not telling a story, you’re acting the story.

And I’ve had actors in the theatre walking like, you’re not acting, you’re telling a story. It’s like, ah. But there is a fine line, I think being trained as an actor, I think, you know, the training that I received was so incredibly amazing and beautiful.

And that difference between the two worlds, there are two worlds of storyteller and actor, but you as a performer can feel and know the difference. I think with storyteller, there is, you know, the fourth wall is gone. It’s more intimate.

It’s more connected. It’s more participant. And you can have elements of storytelling in acting.

I’ve seen, you know, I’ve played many roles where the fourth wall goes up and, you know, I’m in that world. And then the fourth wall goes down and I’m interacting with the audience, you know, like that, that happens. I think you as an actor can definitely use that elements of storytelling because that’s where acting started.

You know, we didn’t have a stage back in the day, you know, you speak to any, any, any indigenous group anywhere around the world. And theatre, even like in Europe, theatre started around the fire and didn’t, there was no stage, you know, and storytelling is the organic form of theatre. It’s the, it’s mother, it’s mothership.

It’s the, so connecting with storytelling is such a, an important part as for me, I believe as an actor and as a performer. Yeah. I think that, that the idea of, of that fine line between acting and storytelling, you really see that in like the, the art of being a solo performer and performing a solo play.

Somebody like Daniel McIver, for example, when he performs one of his solo plays, because he’s addressing the audience and he’s speaking directly to the audience. And it’s usually so simple. There’s not really a set.

There’s just him. It skirts that line so beautifully that it’s both a theatrical experience and a storytelling experience, which often makes me think that like that line is like you’re describing so thin that it might not even in some cases exist. Yes.

Yes. But it’s not just solo, Phil. Like I’ve seen, and I’ve performed in storytelling pieces where it’s not just one person telling a story and acting at the same time.

You know, have you ever, one of my favourite, favourite, favourite things to do when I go back home is listening to stories, is sitting at the kitchen table, you know, all the, all our friends will come over for the weekend. Like, you know, an outdoor is always open and all the friends will come in like they used to, and they will sit there and we’ll start having drinks and chit chats. And it’s the one story is laid over the other story.

And we have storytelling around us all the time. And it’s like, no, no, no, no. That’s not how the story goes.

This is how the story goes. And then that happened, you know, and it’s just this beautiful symphony and rhythm of, of love and joy and sadness. And it’s just, um, yeah, I, I, I don’t think it’s just a solo thing, but it can have soleness as well as.

Sure. I do think that I agree. And I think that there’s something about like a really good storyteller will draw you in like the finest actor and you’ll be on the edge of your seat.

You’re like taken along on a journey. And, um, when you add a group of people doing that, that must be pretty incredible. Yes.

Yes. And it’s so much fun because I think when you try to get to that, um, essence on stage, like when I did drowning girls, for example, at the GCDC, uh, that was so much fun because it was based on a true story. And these three women coming back from the dead and sharing the stories about how this man killed them and murdered them.

And the way the script was written was so well done. It was like, you know, we had to be very quick on our feet all the time, finishing each other’s sentences, but that’s the organic form of storytelling, isn’t it? You know, and, um, but yet it was also told in a beautiful theatrical way. And so there was also that question, is it a story, is it, is it theatre? And it’s both, you know, and it was taken too, because when, when they built the play, it was, um, it was first done as like a, a really short storytelling piece and then built up over time to take it to theatre with a full set, with full lighting, with, with the whole, you know, essence of theatre, I suppose.

Right. Yeah. Um, as a storyteller and so many of the other things you mentioned, um, being a mentor, um, how long have you been mentoring other artists for? Uh, for about five years now.

Yeah. Yeah. When did, okay.

Interestingly, like, cause I think that sometimes people, some people might feel like I, I don’t feel like I am in a position to be a mentor. How, how did you fall, come into mentoring other artists? And, and, and did you, at the time when it was first suggested, did you feel like you were ready to mentor? No, I didn’t feel I was ready at all. I was like, what, how, what am I going to do? How am I going to say? And then it will just come, you know, it just unfolds and you realize, oh my gosh, these are all the teachings that I’ve done.

And you’re someone who’s willing to learn and understand your, your way of creating and expressing, and they enjoy your style. And then all of a sudden you’re like, what? I have a style. I have a Jackie style.

And, um, and then you just start getting more confidence over time. I, I always treat my mentors as it’s, they are my teachers as much as what I am their teacher. Um, all my mentees have taught me such great things about myself, about my practice and, you know, vice versa, and helping them to develop their practice deeper and stronger and more powerful.

So it is a win-win situation. Yeah. It sounds like somebody came to you with the idea of being a mentor or did somebody approach you to be their mentor? Yes.

Yes. And I get it all the time. I get emails from people all the time being like, you know, please, can you be my mentor? Can you please, can you work with me? And if the timing is right and if I have timing, absolutely.

You know, I’m always open to, to teaching. I love teaching and being provoked. I think that’s also the other thing.

You know, I always found like with teaching, um, I love working with the, with the youth as well as younger kids, like creating theatre for the young kids and also like the storytelling. So for me, I’m always humbled because I’m like you without, you know, you’ve taught me, you know what I mean? And like that exchange, I don’t believe in, I think the old form of schooling where it was, you know, of course the teacher knows more. I’ve been here longer and I’m more experienced currently, but there’s something that you teaching me as well.

And am I open to receiving that gift? And not really. I think, I mean, there’s, there’s the idea of like, they have a different, um, uh, their, their experiences are different than yours. So they may have things that they can pass on to you just by virtue of the fact that they’re not you.

Yes. Yes. Um, yeah.

As, as sort of, we sort of start to think about drawing to a close here. One of the things that I’ve been asking, uh, pretty much everybody since, um, March of 2020 is a question about joy. Cause we’ve all had our moments of, of anxiety, of despair, of, of stuck doom scrolling on our phone or whatever it might be.

Um, and we need a little reminder sometimes about the things we can be joyful for. And I love asking people about what’s been giving them joy. So Jackie, what’s been giving you joy? The art of continuously creating.

I don’t know how else to say it. It’s been my theme. No, I, what brings me joy is also the smile, seeing smiles, um, during this time, you know, with masks and things, a lot of people’s faces were very down and just to get laughter and share laughter with someone, um, brings me joy.

Seeing my daughter, she’s inspiration. She brings me joy and the joy of, again, I, you know, what I said in beginning, the gift of being able to continuously create and being open to creating. That’s, that’s really pulled me and helped me out in so many ways that, um, I wish, I wish that’s something I could share with so many people.

Yeah. That’s beautiful. And you, what’s been giving me joy? Yeah.

I have to say that, um, and I’ve said this before, but I will say it again. Um, for me, um, it, at the end of 2019, I met, uh, my, my girlfriend and so we had maybe four months of dating and doing things. And then the pandemic hit and we became our bubble and we were sort of like thrust into this wonderful intimacy where, uh, it was just us.

And, um, we were, you know, like we’re going from like just sitting quietly on the couch, reading to watching things. It’s like, instead of like, um, going off and doing activities, we only had quiet company. And I felt like that gave us this beautiful intimacy that, uh, has really sort of solidified the relationship.

I think that it would have taken us a lot longer to find if we were still, you know, doing activities and going out and doing all these things, but we had this beautiful moment of, of just the two of us that will carry us through as we, uh, re-learn how to go out on dates and things. That is so beautiful. Thank you.

Thank you for sharing. Jackie, this has been a beautiful conversation. Thank you.

Thank you so much. You’re very welcome. Thank you for having me, Phil.

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