Brendan Healy
Brendan Healy is the Artistic Director of Canadian Stage, one of the country’s leading not-for-profit contemporary performing arts organizations. The company produces, presents, commissions, and collaborates with multiple partners on cross-disciplinary work with a focus on performance styles that integrate theatre, dance, film, visual arts and more. Originally from Montréal, Brendan began his career as an actor before moving to directing. Brendan attended the National Theatre School’s Directing Program and trained extensively with one of the pioneers of the American avant-garde Anne Bogart and the SITI Company before relocating to Toronto. Since then, Brendan has established himself as a central figure in the city’s theatre scene. His work has been presented across the country and his productions have garnered multiple awards. Between 2009-2015, Brendan was the Artistic Director of Buddies in Bad Times Theatre, the world’s longest-running theatre devoted to LGBTQ2S artists and one of Canada’s most significant generators of experimental performance and theatre. During his time at Buddies, the company experienced an unprecedented period of artistic success. More recently, Brendan completed a Masters in International Arts Management, in a program jointly offered by the Southern Methodist University (Dallas, Texas), l’École des hautes études commerciales (Montréal, Québec), and the SDA Bocconi School of Management (Milan, Italy). He also worked as the Artistic Director for Performing Arts for the City of Brampton, one of Canada’s most diverse and fastest-growing cities.
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And as I mentioned, my website is philrickabee.com. This week, my guest is Artistic Director of the Canadian Stage, Brendan Healy. Brendan is an actor, a director, and an educator. In addition to leadership at Canadian Stage, Brendan is a former Artistic Director at Buddies and Bad Times and has been a contributor to the Canadian Theatre Review.
During the pandemic, Brendan at Canadian Stage explored new ways of presenting theatrical works, bringing new ways of creating theatre and new methods of presenting it into the digital sphere. Here’s our conversation. Are you working from home? Are you in the Canadian Stage offices? Yeah, I’m actually in rehearsals.
So I’m at Canadian Stage right now. What’s that like these days? Being back in rehearsal? Yeah. Amazing.
It’s a very, very nice feeling. I had been in rehearsals and in sort of over the holidays. We’re getting ready to do a show and then we had to stop rehearsals with Omicron and that was devastating.
But this time I feel like I’m directing a show that will actually make it to the stage. That’s awesome. That is a good feeling.
I mean, I feel like at this point, every time there’s that statement of, oh, we can perform again, everybody goes, great, but they kind of hold their breath. Yeah. Aside from being devastating and difficult, what’s the two years of the pandemic been like for you and for Canadian Stage? It’s been, you know, it’s been, I think, a time of transformation in a bunch of ways.
Like the way that I’ve been describing the pandemic, it’s been like, you know, when you’re driving a car and then you hit the brakes and everything that was in the back seat comes sort of flying into the front. And that’s sort of what I felt we’ve gone through as a society. Kind of like there was this kind of screeching halt and then all this stuff that we’d sort of been carrying around with us, but hadn’t necessarily been looking at, suddenly became really visible.
And we had time and space to really look at that stuff and maybe act on it. So in that way, I think the past two years has actually been really positive. We’ve been able to really ask big questions about what our role is as an arts institution and lean into some really important areas that we just wouldn’t have had a chance to focus on had we not had that opportunity.
Yeah. I mean, those big questions are things that would come up all the time. Things like the question of, are we putting enough people of colour on the stages? Are we engaging enough people behind the scenes of colour? And all kinds of other questions are the kinds of things that, because of the treadmill of production, were difficult things to contend with.
And then when things stop, suddenly, though there was not that, if for want of a better word, excuse not to deal with those things, and now we have to deal with them. And I think that’s been really positive, I think, for the theatre industry as a whole. Absolutely.
And certainly there was a lot of events in the world that also brought those particular questions to the forefront, absolutely, that necessitated some deep examination. Also on top of it, we often define ourselves by what we do. And I think as people, we do that and also as institutions.
But then when suddenly we weren’t able to really do what we typically did, we were left with the thought of, well, how do I define myself by just being? And that’s kind of a bit of an existential question. And so I think artists and organizations kind of had to deal with, OK, well, if I’m not defined by producing, producing, producing, then what am I? And I think at Canadian Stage, we really had a chance to kind of lean into our institutional values. So like, what do we believe in? And then try to kind of figure out a way to kind of navigate the past two years with our values really guiding us, as opposed to all the other prerogatives that come into play when you’re busy doing things, doing shows.
What were those big questions and where did you come out on those when you finally put your values together? Yeah, I mean, I think there’s a lot that I could say about that. I’d say one of the big things was, who do we exist for? And certainly, we have so many stakeholders and we have a big family at Canadian Stage and audiences. I mean, there’s just so much there.
But fundamentally, we serve artists. We create a platform for artists to create, to speak from. And so the big question is like, well, how do we continue to do that if we can’t have audiences in the space? And so a lot of stuff came out of that question.
We had a huge micro grant program where we funded artists to go back to school. We funded projects that enabled artists to really pivot their artistic practice, so to embrace digital technologies, to really re-examine their artistic practice. And that was a huge initiative that we were able to support a lot of artists.
But also, we were able to, as an organization, really delve into all kinds of new opportunities for how artists can express themselves and perform. We embraced all kinds of new technologies. We did a whole residency in virtual reality, which was kind of mind-blowing.
So out of the question of how can we best serve artists, all kinds of new creative avenues opened up for us as an institution that we’ll carry forward into the future. It turns out, aside from the virtual reality stuff, which is always fascinating and how that has developed over the years, I can remember many years ago in the, I think it was the late 90s, going to the exhibition and there was a really terrible demonstration that I had to pay for. And I think I paid like $10 to see a bunch of lines surrounding me.
And the VR has come such a long way. So exploring that in a theatrical experience must have been incredible. But also, did you guys do much with Zoom and other digital productions as well? Yeah, we did a lot of stuff over Zoom, not just Zoom, different online platforms, you know, all of which were really interesting.
And what VR offers, apart from the immersive experience, is just kind of a live connection in a digital space, which Zoom can also provide. So all that was really interesting. Like, what is liveness when you’re not in a room together? Can you create the feeling of liveness? Can you create intimacy? What is exchange between two bodies that are not sharing a space? It’s all super interesting and really fruitful and filled with failure, like a lot of failure, which is, I mean, it’s a part of the artist’s way is to fail.
But, you know, I’m sort of excited to see, you know, five years from now, what has carried forward from this time. I think artists have been working in such different ways, and we can’t really predict, you know, what will stick. But it’s inevitable that we’ll look back and go wow, we learned a lot.
Or wow, that really did have an impact on our art form. I don’t know if we can totally see what that is specifically just yet. I don’t think we’ll know.
I mean, obviously we won’t know because we can make all kinds of predictions that will not come true. Definitely. I find it fascinating, and I’ve said this before, how many people were delving into technologies that two and a half years ago, they would have said, oh, I could never do that.
I’m not technical enough. I could never do that. And throughout all of this, they’ve explored other ways and made some really interesting and, you know, everybody’s got to try and fail before they find out what works, as you said.
I’m sort of interested to see if we’re able to do and to continue utilizing digital delivery in the future as a way of sort of expanding the audience, serving underserved and accessibility issues, just to see if that’s something that we can carry forward, even though logistically it sometimes feels like it’s difficult. I mean, absolutely. I mean, the digital disruption creates all kinds of accessibility opportunities.
That’s for sure, for sure. Among the tricky parts of digitization, particularly around distribution, is how to monetize it. I mean, every sector is facing that problem or that question, and the theatre is certainly no different.
It’s what is a financial model that works for online platforms when it comes to performance, and that’s a whole other question. Yeah, because those are, I mean, obviously we need to be able to monetize. I think there was early in the pandemic, I think it felt necessary at the time, but it did set somewhat of an unfortunate precedent, is lots of people giving away their digital production, which felt at the beginning really necessary, but then made it a little harder later on to ask people to pay for those things, because this used to be free, and now you’re asking me to pay for it.
And it’s one of those sort of carries forward, and trying to figure out what is a fair accessible price or a fair price for digital production and digital delivery, while also being able to welcome the audience into this space. I think we’re going to have to see how that pans out over time. Yeah, I mean, digital technology presents all kinds of problems to capitalism, and I think we’re still trying to figure that one out as a society.
What is the relationship between these things? The other thing I was thinking, Phil, as you were saying, is you mentioned that a lot of artists felt that they could not embrace digital technologies prior to the pandemic. I also feel that there were a lot of us, me included, who felt that we will not embrace digital technologies. I think, for myself, feeling I’m a theatre artist, and this is the interaction that I can work with, which is live in person, in a room, and that’s what I do.
And so the pandemic, I know I was forced to really challenge my assumptions around what I did, and what I maybe thought was a bit more superior to other forms of connection. It was interesting. I kind of had to really re-evaluate the fundamentals of what I believe I do as a theatre artist, in a healthy way.
Yeah, I don’t think you’re the only one. I know there’s people who are still even now resistant to digital delivery and digital theatre, and there are some people that just want to put that thing back in the box. We used it.
We had to use it. Let’s get rid of it as quickly as possible. Because they’ll say things like, well, if it’s online, it’s not theatre.
If it’s filmed, it’s not theatre. I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit, because I feel like I’m often defending digital theatre with people, and sometimes evangelising a little bit too much. But I feel like it’s so necessary that we consider theatre to be what we make it to be, rather than tying ourselves to it being one thing.
And it will still be that one thing, because online and filmed production and digital production is never going to be exactly that, because that experience of being in the theatre is unique, and will always be its thing. That experience can never be fully recreated in a digital experience, but people can get a taste of it, which in some cases might encourage them to actually come to the actual theatre. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Or the quality of experience online is just different. It’s just a different kind of quality of togetherness.
I mean, we could go on and on forever. It’s been an interesting couple of years, Phil. Yes, it has.
Yes, it has. I think one of the things that I’m curious about is, you know, as the Artistic Director of Canadian Stage, can you tell me a little bit about what was your impression of and what did you think of the Canadian Stage before you became the Artistic Director? I mean, it depends at what point in its history, because Canadian Stage has had so many incarnations. My first real contact with Canadian Stage was right after I graduated from theatre school.
I was part of the first ever sort of RBC Emerging Artists Program. It was called BASHED back then. My first introduction to Canadian Stage was that, and through that program, I ended up actually assistant directing hair.
There was a production of hair that was done by Canadian Stage many years ago. So that was like one version of Canadian Stage. And so the impression that I had there was, you know, it was like a kind of a not-for-profit company that was sort of operating a bit commercially and sort of was really big and had big ambitious ideas for kind of big commercial productions.
And then with Matthew, Matthew Jocelyn, who was the Artistic Director right before me, really brought the company in a very different direction. I think sort of embraced you know, like more, less commercially driven work, much more artistically innovative and work and really kind of brought on this mandate that became very international, very multidisciplinary. There’s some theatre, but also dance and other forms.
So it was a very different, very different company. What drew me to the company was sort of the artistic vision that Matthew kind of initiated was one that I was really excited by and felt really like I really wanted to kind of pick up the mantle from that artistic vision and kind of move it forward in sort of my own way. So I was, yeah, so it’s a very long answer to your question, which was basically, I was really inspired by the work that Canadian Stage was doing and was really eager to kind of be a part of that conversation.
And what does, as the Artistic Director, how do you see yourself moving what came before forward? And how are you putting your own spin on it? And how are you, where do you see it going in your tenure? Yeah, I mean, it’s so interesting because I haven’t really experienced the company outside of COVID. So much of my experience of the company has been sort of, you know, responding to the pandemic. You know, what I can say is that sort of the impulse for me was like, how can the mandate at Canadian Stage really feel like an authentic reflection of Toronto? And how can its kind of contemporary aspirations and sort of innovative inspirations just really represent the people and the ideas and the questions and the realities of everyday Torontonians? So that was sort of, that for me is the project.
And there’s all kinds of ways to kind of look at that question. But that was really, that’s sort of what I was, that’s what I’m interested in. Yeah.
The Canadians, I remember the first show that I saw at Canadian Stage many years ago, was an immersive production called Donut City. Oh, I didn’t know that show. Somehow I had, I don’t know if I, because I’d talked to one of the English teachers at my school and I don’t know if they’d also heard of it, but we went on a class trip to a show that we probably shouldn’t have gone to this immersive show about prostitution and street hookers, both male and female.
And it was probably more graphic than a group of high school students should have seen in the 80s. But that was my first time in the Berkeley Street Theatre. And it sort of like bent my brain as something that made me sort of think like, oh, this, like I thought theatre was one thing, but this is, this is, this is like so different than anything I ever thought it was.
And it’s interesting to think about all of the different configurations that have been used in both that theatre and in the Bluma, Appel, and the other theaters that have been used by Canadian Stage. Yeah. Yeah.
Well, that’s interesting. Yeah. I mean, Canadian Stage is such a funny organization because it used to be two different companies.
It used to be the Toronto Free Theatre, which existed at the Berkeley, and then Center Stage, which operated out of the Bluma. And those two organizations merged to become Canadian Stage. And those organizations could not have been more different.
You know, Toronto Free Theatre was, you know, this kind of radical experimental theatre company was called the Free Theatre because, you know, originally all their shows were free. They couldn’t, they couldn’t really maintain that. But that was sort of the idea was like, theatre should be free for anybody.
And was really, yeah, like the kind of show that you described was the kind of standard of the Toronto Free Theatre. Center Stage was kind of a big regional that played kind of, you know, Broadway, you know, after Broadway, the shows would get picked up by Center Stage. So when those two companies together, merged together, like, and I think that still is a part of the company’s energy is like, you know, like this tension between kind of really experimental theatre that makes you rethink what theatre is, but then also kind of large scale, big idea theatre, which requires, you know, to attract like a big audience.
Yeah. Now you as a, I believe you grew up in Montreal. Yes.
And so I know Montreal, I’ve, you know, I’ve spent a little bit of time in Montreal. And I’ve always loved just walking around Montreal and being like, oh, there’s that’s essentially a neighborhood theatre. Oh, that’s essentially a neighborhood theatre.
And seeing that sort of thing. What was your experience of theatre like growing up in Montreal? Yeah, Montreal has a ton of theatre. And, you know, for a portion of the population, it’s a big part of their lives.
I didn’t grow up in a family where theatre was at all a part of our lives. So I came into theatre through kind of like a youth program. It’s like, you know, it’s like a sort of late 80s, early 90s.
That was basically a kind of youth program to get kids off the streets kind of thing, you know. And basically, there was like a kind of youth theatre festival that happened in the old port of Montreal in this huge abandoned hangar. And, you know, young people kind of wrote and directed and acted in all the plays.
I kind of remember a few adults kind of in the background, making sure we didn’t kill ourselves. But it was all about kind of youth empowerment. And so for some reason, my, you know, my mother had a kind of instinct to suggest that, hey, maybe you’d be interested in doing this thing.
Because I certainly had no real experience of theatre. I hadn’t seen a play. But I said, sure, why not? Let’s give this shot.
And that’s sort of where I fell in love with theatre. It was only until after doing that for like maybe two or three summers that I learned that there was actually like people who did it for a living, it was actually like a career. And then I got to kind of see my first professional production when I was, you know, two or three years after doing kind of this kind of theatre.
So yeah, but yes, all that to say is that Montreal does have a lot of theatre. Yeah, I wasn’t necessarily a part of it. And as growing up, and I think that’s the thing about society is not everyone goes to see theatre.
That’s the thing. I mean, I’ve said it before, we all know somebody who’s like, you know, you say, Oh, I work in the theatre, and they’ll say something ridiculous, like I saw a play once, and I didn’t like it or things like that. Yeah.
And so we know that people don’t go to theatre, they’ve had some bad theatre experiences. But you started like, do you remember what that first production that you saw was? Yeah, the first production I saw was, so I grew up, I grew up speaking French and going to French high school. So it was a, it was a Moliere.
I don’t know what that is in English. But yeah, I was it was a big Moliere play, you know, kind of French, you know, it was a bit punk rock. It was directed by a director named Lorraine Pental, who still right now runs the Théâtre du Nouveau Monde, which is a very, you know, large theatre in Montreal.
And she’s she’s sort of known for kind of sort of radical feminist kind of retelling of the classics. So I kind of remember there was a bit of a feminist edge to it. But to me, it was so not what I thought theatre was, because I’d kind of been doing these, these kind of shows about growing up, you know, what it was like to be a teenager.
I was just like, a very, I was like, what, what is this? This is theatre. But I, but I was also completely fascinated by it. And, and even though I didn’t totally kind of get what was happening on stage, I, I was totally enthralled by the experience of it.
There’s this fast, I think it’s, it’s interesting that you had that, that sort of experience of like, oh, this is theatre too. Because I know, I think for a lot of people, their first exposure to theatre, unless they go to some Pantos at Christmas, is probably when they do when they tackle Shakespeare in high school. Right.
And, and then they think that’s what theatre is. And then they sort of, if they see something else, they could realize that, oh, theatre is more than just Shakespeare and Broadway musicals, which they may also know. But yes, it’s, it’s interesting to, to see the different ways that people come to theatre.
Totally. I mean, I think for me, kind of my, I fell in love with theatre initially through, through this, this youth, this youth festival that I was talking about. Because for me, it was the first place where I really felt seen as a person.
I think growing up, I felt just kind of like probably a lot of younger people, just really out of place. I felt invisible. You know, I was also like a gay, gay kid and kind of, kind of working class Montreal.
Like I just was kind of getting beaten up, you know. But suddenly at this, at the, at this theatre, I felt that I mattered. I felt people saw me.
I felt, I felt special. And there’s also a place of like, where I like a lot of firsts. It’s where like, I kind of had my first cigarette.
Like I ended up losing my virginity one summer at that festival. I, I, you know, met my first gay, like real gay person. So it was a lot of like kind of self discovery.
And so that’s sort of my, my point of entry into the theatre was that. But, but then it changed and it kind of changed a little bit with that Moliere play and then subsequent shows was for me, was a kind of feeling of mystery. Like, like, like what is this? What is this theatre? What am I seeing? Who are these people on stage? And, and, and feeling like it was a bit beyond me.
But the, the, the journey to try to understand was like, was like a really exciting journey for me. I felt that way about Shakespeare, kind of like, what the hell are these people talking about? Like, what is happening? But like a good production, not a bad, like a good production would make me want to kind of stretch myself to get it. And in that process of trying to get it, that’s where I started to learn things.
And that eventually became what I love about the theatre, much less like the kind of like being seen and, and, and that sort of thing. It became much more about, about the, the, the conversation that good theatre kind of demands of me. And, and, and yeah.
Yeah. Now you, you initially like you, you, you went into theatre as a, as an actor, but how long after that did you turn to directing? You know, I, I, I guess it wasn’t that long. I mean, I, I started off as an actor and then went to university.
I went to Concordia University in Montreal and their theatre performance program and, and, and kind of did that. And, you know, in, in university teachers were like, you know, Brendan, you should direct, you should really direct. And I always interpreted that as like, you kind of suck as an actor, you know? So I was a bit resistant.
I was like, nah, I’m, I’m an actor. But I did take a directing class for kind of extra, you know, for credit or whatever, and, and, and quite, quite loved it. And then kind of graduated from school and tried to make it as a professional actor.
I got an agent, did a bit of television, and I was just like so miserable. The life of an actor just did not appeal to me at all. And I, I ended up getting cast in this show that Peter Hinton was directing called Girls, Girls, Girls.
And that was my first kind of experience with a director where I, I just was so amazed by what he was doing and, and, and his, his, his role in, in the, in the process. And I, I thought, okay, I think I want to be like Peter Hinton. And so after that experience, I kind of made a decision that I’m going to try to be like Peter Hinton and, and, and just started to direct and kind of gave up acting.
Now, now being in leadership in, in a theatre and being an artistic director is a little bit different than being a director. Did you, at the time that you were making that decision, were you thinking about, about going into artistic direction, or were you just thinking about being a director? Yeah, no, I wasn’t thinking about artistic direction at all at that point. It was really just like, I, I, I want to, I want to direct.
I want, you know, what, among the things I loved about directing is that I could just kind of do it. Like I didn’t have to, I didn’t have to wait for someone to invite me. So that really excited me.
So I just, I just started making like a ton of shows. I would just like kind of do a lot, a lot, a lot of shows and was only focused on that. It wasn’t until later that artistic direction kind of emerged as a, as an interest.
Now, did you have, did that sort of like, what was the journey to be, to becoming an artistic director? Was there a mentor? Was there, did somebody say you should do this? Like, how did you get from being a director to artistic director? Um, I guess in a way it was a bit of a, a bit of a fluke. Um, I, I applied for a job and I got the job, you know, uh, and, and I got the job probably cause I was like kind of just the right person at the right time. Um, uh, and I kinda, I kinda applied to the job, uh, like kind of not sure that, that I wanted to be an artistic director, but kind of like, I might want to be an artistic director.
So, uh, I’m going to apply for this job and I’m just going to kind of be sort of radically honest in, in, in my process with the interviews and just tell them exactly what I think I would do with the theatre. Uh, uh, and then I got the job and then through the process of doing it, I really discovered how much I loved it. But I, I didn’t necessarily know, uh, when I applied for the job that like, this is what I totally wanted.
I wasn’t sure. And, but it, it, it turned out to be what you wanted it. Absolutely.
No, it was, uh, it, it’s, it’s exactly what I wanted. And, and I think what I learned through that process was, uh, um, that really my great passion is, is community building. Um, and, and that the theatre is for me, the best tool that I have as, as who I am to, to use to, to create community.
Um, uh, but I, I think I, I, I going into the job, I thought theatre was my great passion and that artistic direction could kind of like help me kind of do, do more theatre. Uh, and then I quickly realized like, Oh no, actually what this job provides me is the opportunity to create community. And that’s what I really love.
Um, so yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about how, how you see it as creating community? I’d love to hear about the kind of, uh, community that you see being created, especially around Canadian stage. Well, I think, I think there’s, there’s many communities, you know, I think, uh, kind of at its most basic, like every night, a group of people come to see a show and a kind of community is created that night around, around the story, around an experience.
Um, so there’s that, I think, uh, uh, uh, there’s the community of artists who, uh, are, who make up the heart and soul of a theatre company. And certainly Canadian stage has a group of artists who kind of make the, uh, make up that community. There’s the communities of people who live close by.
So we’re, you know, we’re in the St. Lawrence neighborhood at Canadian stage, and we are very actively involved in, in working with, with, uh, local community groups to kind of be a part of this neighborhood and to be in like an active contributor to the lives of the people who live nearby. Uh, so there’s like all kinds of communities that, that, that sit around a theatre and that’s really exciting and it changes, uh, you know, my first artistic direction role was at Buddies in Bad Times. And certainly that, you know, that, that’s very much rooted in, in, you know, the LGBTQ2S, uh, uh, communities.
Um, and so that, that was like a whole, a whole world of communities that, that I got to be a part of. Um, so, I mean, for me, theatre is, is at its core is, is, is communing. Uh, and when you commune, community happens.
Yeah. I’m curious about, uh, the cultivation of the leadership of the future, uh, as far as, as theatre in Canada goes. I wonder, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve noticed that, that organizations like Soulpepper have created like, like sort of what, what feel like, uh, uh, uh, internships for the future leadership to become an associate artistic director and to learn the ropes that way for, for, for people.
Um, and I, I think that’s important because for a lot of years, uh, some theaters have imported their artistic leadership, uh, from outside of the country. Whereas, um, we have plenty people here who just need to know how to do it. Um, as far as, as the cultivation of the leaders of the future is, is there, or do you foresee a program, uh, at Canadian stage that will, will help to do that? Yeah.
I mean, we have a lot of programs that, that do a lot, but we do have programs that do that. We, we, you know, there is an associate artistic director role at the company. Um, and, and that is in part to, to train the leaders of, of, of theaters of tomorrow.
That’s the big reason why we have that role. That role also brings in all kinds of important expertise to the organization. Uh, we do all kinds of internships through the Metcalf Foundation.
We have our own internship programs where, where we really feel it’s critical that we’re constantly training, uh, leaders of, you know, administrative leaders, artistic leaders, production leaders. Um, it’s a big, big part of what we do. It’s so important.
It’s so important because if, if, if we’re not teaching people on the job, that’s the only way, I mean, you could take a course, but like really getting your hands in there is the only thing that’s going to get you that, that work later on. And it’s so important that we build that foundation in Canada, um, rather than hoping we can find it elsewhere. So I think that’s amazing that that’s an essential part of which, what Canadian stage is doing.
Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. What is your, do you have a favourite thing, whether it’s a production or aspect of Canadian stage that, that is just like the thing that you, you just, when you think about it gives you all the, the warm fuzzies and it’s the thing that you, that, that makes you smile.
Oh yeah. I mean, there’s, there’s a ton of stuff. Um, I think for me, the thing that I, I, that, that excites me the most is, is the, the sheer, like the sheer variety of stuff that the company does.
And, and, you know, we do dance, we do theatre, we have like small spaces, we have large spaces, we do a big outdoor Shakespeare. I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, we really cover such a of work, um, and styles and, and, um, and so for me, it’s, it’s the, it’s the, it’s the way that those things connect that I find them to be the most interesting. Um, um, like the relationship between our spaces, between the art forms, um, you know, between the audiences that we, we have every year, it’s really, really exciting.
Um, and that’s often what excites me is, is, is when things kind of come together or kind of collide. Um, um, you know, some of my favourite experiences at Buddies, for instance, you know, I, I remember this, this one instance where, you know, we were, we had a company, Knightwood was doing, uh, the Penelope, the, the Penelopiad by Margaret Atwood. Um, and like that show was ending and then our club night, you know, we run a club at Buddies and, and, you know, a bunch of drag queens kind of like coming up a staircase to kind of perform while this audience of Margaret Atwood play, play goers kind of was exiting the theatre and, and watching those two groups meet, uh, was really, really exciting for me.
Um, um, so yeah, I think at Canadian Stage, it’s, it’s, it’s the collision of things that I find so dynamic and exciting. I remember years ago, the production, I think it was a co-pro between Canadian Stage and another theatre of the Rocky Horror Show. And I remember that collision.
I remember being in the audience, uh, watching and, and really being fascinated by the way that the, the subscriber base and the, the people who are maybe regular theatre goers, uh, coming face to face and in many ways ear to ear with like the people who, for whom, uh, that show, the Rocky Horror Show is an interactive experience. And, uh, that was fascinating to watch an adjustment take place in an audience. And those you’re right, those kinds of collisions and, and, and intertanglements are quite fascinating to watch.
Absolutely. I mean, I, I, you know, another way of thinking about a theatre, you know, as apart from being communities is like an ecology, uh, and it’s like an ecosystem and there’s all kinds of players that kind of come together to make that ecosystem. Uh, and you know, that sort of the most, sort of the, the most like vital ecosystems are actually, um, areas where ecosystems meet, like, like the seashore, for instance, where you have like land and water meet, that’s like a really like fertile space.
Um, and so if you’re in a theatre, if you’re able to kind of create these conditions where, uh, ecosystems meet, um, it, it gets really exciting. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Um, as far as, as, I mean, you mentioned like really your experience of being the artistic director at Canadian stage has largely been dealing with the pandemic. Um, that, I mean, we are like around the time when this goes out, we will be just past the two year anniversary of, of the time when everything shut down. Um, what were you working on at the time that everything had to shut down in March of 2020? Yeah, I mean, we had just, you know, what, what was, what was I working on? I, we had just closed a show that I had directed, uh, called How to Fail as a Pop Star, uh, by Vivek Shreya.
And, and, and we were just sort of getting ready for a big, like a big dance show at the Buluma. Uh, and we had just sort of announced the kind of 1920 season, uh, and like subscription sales were like going like gangbusters. Like it was like, like things, I was like, okay, I, I’d been at the company for about eight, eight, eight or nine months at that point.
And I was like, okay, I sort of felt like I was kind of, my feet were sort of landing. Uh, and I was kind of like, okay, I get what’s going on. Um, yeah.
And then everything changed. And in fact, I was in, I was in Brazil, uh, when, when the actual shutdown happened, I had, I had just landed in Brazil. Like I literally, I’d been invited to go see a theatre festival there.
It’s like my first time in Brazil. I got off the plane and then like literally six hours later, uh, it was announcing that everything was shutting down and I got on a plane the next day and came home. Wow.
That’s, I remember for me, you know, knowing that I think the moment where it became real for me was the news that Broadway was shutting down. I was like, oh, this commercial machine is shutting down. Um, and then we just saw things go from there.
It’s, I think those, those weeks after that, um, were some of the most depressing and dire at first for me. But then also when I started to see innovation happening and, and, and creativity continuing, um, even though for me it took me about a year before I could put pen to paper and write something again. Um, it was just seeing that people were able to do it was, was heartening for me.
And I thought it was, uh, uh, I knew that the theatre was going to survive in some way. Yeah. I mean, we’re, we’re, I think we’re, we’re inherently creative beings, uh, and creativity never goes away.
Um, um, but yeah, I was, it was wild. I mean, it still kind of feels actually like a bit like a dream. Um, uh, it was just so surreal.
Yeah. It, everything is, I mean, I remember, you know, just today I just put an episode talking with Lisa Alves from, uh, as we record this today, uh, Lisa Alves from cahoots theatre. And it was pointed out that, that after we put it, after we produced it, that she’d referred to 2019 for a bunch of things that actually happened in 2020 and 2021.
And I was like, well, of course, cause we’re all still like, what is time? Right. Yeah. Because time has, it’s like, I feel like the last two years have been both so, uh, breathlessly fast and also snails pay slow at the same time.
So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s easy to, to, to sort of like see this the last two years as a, as a dream state. Yeah. I mean, it’s amazing that time can do that.
Uh, and, and just how, how totally subjective time is as I’m trying to think because there’s, you know, as, as we’re recording this today, we’re recording this on March 1st today, Ontario has lifted, uh, vaccination passes and, and, and gathering limits and things like that. Although masking is still, uh, required. Um, and I know there’s a lot of, a lot of, uh, talk about both ways about how people want to do it.
Some theatres have announced that they’re going to continue, uh, to look at vaccination passes, uh, and some theatres haven’t announced anything like that. Um, do you know what Canadian stages is planning to do for the foreseeable future on that front? Yeah, we, you know, we have a show, uh, coming up in a couple of weeks in my body. And so for that one, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll keep checking, you know, vaccinations.
Um, part of it, that’s people who’ve bought their tickets for that show, you know, bought that their ticket with the understanding that that was going to be part of the experience. So, you know, we want to honour that. Um, you know, and then we’ll kind of just sort of evaluate.
I think, I think if there’s one thing that the pandemic has, has taught us is kind of how to be nimble and just sort of monitor and see how people are feeling, how, how safe people are feeling or, you know, for us, what’s really important is that people feel safe and comfortable. And so, so we’ll start with that. We’ll start with that, you know, in a couple of weeks, and then we’ll, we’ll kind of reevaluate and kind of check in with our audience.
It’s been great. You know, we, we’ve, we’ve done a lot of checking in with our audience throughout the pandemic and, and, um, our audience has been like incredibly forthcoming, uh, with how they feel and what they want. So, you know, we’ll, we’ll just kind of keep, keep monitoring the situation as they say.
Yeah, that’s, I mean, having that kind of feedback is so, is so important and helpful. Do you feel like the kind of connection and feedback that you’re getting from the audience has gotten, uh, uh, like that, that, that feedback has gotten better and more regular through the pandemic, or is it something that has always existed for Canadian stage? I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s different, you know, because obviously when you’re doing shows every night, you just get the feedback nightly. Um, um, uh, but it’s, it’s really directed to a show.
Um, uh, with the pandemic, what the feedback has been more around the experience of theatre, what it like, what like safety and comfort, um, and also just kind of more institutional, like what, what, what is, what is our value to you? Um, what’s been interesting. It’s just like, it’s like, I feel the feedback has been continuous, but just like very different in nature. Yeah.
Well, I guess, I mean, in, in a lot of ways, um, people aren’t seeing their experience in just a show to show aspect. They’re looking at things like, like you said, comfort and, and safety and things like that. So I’m sure lots of people have lots of feelings about that.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of businesses are, are, are kind of like, okay, like what is, what is a customer experience now? Um, it’s wasn’t what it was two years ago.
Um, and I think we’re, we’re going to kind of collectively learn what that is. I think, I think audiences don’t necessarily even know yet what it is that they need and want, you know, I think it’s, we’re all going to kind of figure it out together. Yeah, no, absolutely.
I mean, it’s one of those things where, uh, we are like, like, like we’ve sort of like alluded to, we’re figuring out theatre as we go now because, um, we have to figure out what we’re taking from this moving forward and, and, and, and what’s going to, what’s going to continue, what’s going to, what’s going to change. And with the knowledge that, that, um, we still have to be nimble and might have to switch on a dime. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And, and, and it, you know, for me, what that requires is, is just kind of, kind of like listening and paying attention. You can’t, can’t predict, you know, like goes back to sort of what we were saying at the beginning of the conversation.
Like we could sit here and try to predict, but it’s literally impossible. Uh, the, the skill in my opinion is to just really pay attention. Um, which is like the fundamental thing that one must do in the theatre anyways, is just pay attention, be present, listen and react and respond.
Yeah. And, and I think in, it’s, it’s sort of forced a lot of institutions that may not have been used to moving so quickly, uh, to be able to enter, to have to move quickly when they have to, um, cause there’s no, no choice. It sort of like makes you change the way that you think about, well, how do we measure success here? Um, because from week to week, the way that we measure success might have to change.
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Um, just in, as we sort of draw to a close, um, uh, can you talk about, um, you know, you’re, you’re back in the theatre.
We’ve talked a little bit about, about what it’s been like to, to rehearse. Um, as you look at the show that you’re currently rehearsing, um, if you could put out into the universe, what you want for this show, what would that be? Um, I think, I think it’s probably what I want for any show is, is, is for it to be seen, uh, and for it to move people. Really, you know, I feel like I don’t know if I have anything else to kind of add to that.
I think for me, the, the, the most, uh, satisfying, if you will, experience is, is, is, is affecting another person through, through art. I find that to be really, really meaningful. And, and, and, um, you know, my, my favourite experiences in the, in the theatre have always been moments where I’m like watching a show and I think to myself, wow, like how did this person know this about me? I didn’t even really know that about me.
Uh, I can think of instances where I’ve really felt like, felt like, wow, that show is, is showing me something that I, about myself that I didn’t really even know existed. Um, and I think that’s, I always want to make theatre that does that for other people, you know, that somehow through the magic of make-believe, pretend, story, or like all the, all the things that we work with as theatre artists that I’m, you know, that we’re able to kind of like reveal some truth to somebody. Yeah.
I think that is the, that is the power of theatre is to, is to be able to do that. And that’s, it’s magical when that happens. Brendan, thank you so much for, for talking with me today.
I really enjoyed this. Thank you. My pleasure.
