Stephen Elliott Jackson & Neta J. Rose

Steven Elliott Jackson is an award-winning playwright originally from Minto Manitoba and now living in Kitchener, Ontario. In 2017, he won Best New Play at the Toronto Fringe for “The Seat Next To The King” and it was produced in Canada and the United States subsequently. It was published by Scirocco Drama. In 2020, he won Best New Play for “Three Ordinary Men” at the Hamilton Fringe and it will be produced in June 2022 by Cahoots Theatre in Toronto. In 2022, he will be premiering TOM as well as The Garden Of Alla and The Prince’s Big Adventurer at the Toronto Fringe.

www.stevenelliottjackson.ca
Twitter: @MinmarGaslight
Instagram: @minmar_gaslight

Neta J. Rose is a proud Ashkenazi Jewish queer non-binary actor based in Toronto/Tkaronto. They are a founding member of Create! Youth Theatre, in Scotland, now entering its 13th year.

Neta’s stage credits include: Henry G20 (Luminato),The Omnibus Bill (TACTICS), The Bonds of Interest (Odyssey), The Penelopiad (Hart House), Midsummer Night’s Dream and Twelfth Night (Foxtail – UK), Heart of a Dog (Nowadays Theatre/Next Stage), and 1184 (Phoenix Arts/Aga Khan).

They are also a poet and essayist whose writing has recently been published in Salty Magazine and in the Pandemic Poetry chapbook by Buddies in Bad Times.

Instagram: @neta.j.rose

The Garden of Alla
LA, 1921. “Alla Nazimova” (née Marem-Ides Leventon), prolific film pioneer, broadway darling and proud bisexual invites company to her home, “The Garden of Alla”, enticing them with her plans to make Oscar Wilde’s highly controversial “Salome” into a dazzling, big-budget film. Recruiting her “husband,” Charles Bryant to direct, and lover, Natacha Rambova for the opulent costume/set designs, the landmark movie will get made amidst the the trio’s romances and trysts – but at what cost, as religious lobbyist William B. Hays concocts a strict code of ethics that Hollywood studios must obey, threatening freedom of creative expression and true art?

Tickets: fringetoronto.com/fringe/show/garden-alla

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Transcript

Welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host of this podcast. This is Episode 329.

Stageworthy is a one-person operation, so not only do I arrange the guests, I edit the show, I promote it, and I also created the music that you’re hearing now. I also shoulder all of the financial responsibilities for keeping the show going, so if you enjoy this podcast, please consider supporting it. There are a few ways that you can do that.

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I will put a link to that in the show notes, which you can find on the website or in your podcast app. But one of the most important things that you can do, even more important than ratings, reviews, or even financial support, is to share on social media. Even retweeting this episode helps.

You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod, and you can find the website with the archive of all 329 episodes at stageworthypodcast.com. If you want to follow me online, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickaby, and as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com. My guests this week are Stephen Elliott Jackson and Netta Rose. Stephen is the playwright of The Garden of Allah, and Netta is one of the stars of the show. The Garden of Allah is part of the 2022 Toronto Fringe Festival, running from July 6th to 17th.

Here’s our conversation. So Stephen, you’ve, I mean, two shows in the fringe. Is that, I mean, that’s a little bit greedy, don’t you think? I would say I’m being greedy, but I have to always remind myself for the first 17 years of being in that lottery and never being picked either for a spot or the wait list.

The other thing is, is that what happens is my partner and I both enter, but we always enter in different categories. And so we never, ever fudge up the lottery in any sense. We made sure about that.

And so he enters in the kids’ fringe and I enter in the adults’. I am giving you, I mean, you’re not the only person. I’ve spoken to a couple of people in the past who’ve had a couple of shows in the fringe.

That wasn’t their choice, but it’s like, listen, to have a kids’ show in there, the kids’ fringe is so important as far as I’m concerned. Like for many kids, it’s their first exposure to theatres. So kids’ fringe, we need quality work and having your work in there is a huge thing.

The show that we wanted to talk about mostly, it’s the Garden of Allah. Is that right? That’s correct. Perfect.

So Stephen, would you like to give me the elevator pitch for the Garden of Allah? Sure. So it’s 1922 and Alla Massimova, a queer, wonderful artist, filmmaker, has decided to make a version of Salome into a film and decides to recruit her somewhat husband, Charles, and her lover, Natasha, to help with the film. It doesn’t quite go as planned.

There’s a lot at stake and a lot that rides on it working, but also a lot on society to accept it. So yes. Now, Salome, if I recall my film history, I mean, people have been trying to make Salome as a film for a while.

I think there was at least one silent version that was done. And this is, I believe, pre-Hays Code, which means that they could get away with a whole lot. But I love that era, that silent era heading towards talkies, but not quite there yet.

What is it about this story, Stephen, that grabbed you? Well, and that’s the one you’re talking about. That’s the Salome we’re talking about in this film or in this play. It really attracted me because there was this incredible queer world going on in Hollywood that just existed, right? And that’s what really intrigued me.

It’s what follows after when the Hays Code and the censorship starts to come into play that starts to rob those voices of being able to speak again. And they wouldn’t speak again for like 80 years, not in the full force that these artists did. And that’s what really intrigued me.

I always like to look at queer history more like a roller coaster. Sometimes we have this idea of like, this is where it starts and we move on. And it’s like, no, no, no, that’s not how lives work.

Queer lives have existed throughout history, either at good points and bad points throughout history. And it’s just a case of whether or not societies accept them or not. And so that’s why this story really appealed to me, because we do have this idea that queer films have not existed before 1969.

And it’s like, no, they did, and they existed in so many different ways. And this is one particular example and just what happened to it. It’s interesting because there’s the erasure of the queer voice over time.

Like, as you said, the beginnings of the film industry, there were many queer voices and many queer stories being told. And many women do. And many women.

Yeah. There were many strong stories that were being told that were said, you know, as often happens, the more conservative get their backs up and decide, well, this isn’t permitted. This is this is too much.

We can’t have this. They freak out. And then they bring in some of the Hays Code, which stifles creativity for years.

And it wasn’t just queer like queer sexuality, like all sex, like the the the insanity of like that kiss to this, like the ways that people had to to insinuate attraction and things like that. It’s the Hays Code was wildly over overreaching, but very much so. And I think what’s interesting is that the films I’ve actually grown to love over the years are those filmmakers who dare to challenge those notions.

And so, like, for instance, like for my my favorite era of kind queer filmmaking is like nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty nine, because these filmmakers trying to tell stories without the words to say them. But the audiences were starting to pick it up. And I am just absolutely fascinated by this.

But this era was fascinating because they were being quite overt about what they’re saying. Well, I mean, yeah, there’s there’s a lot of really, really overt sexuality in in in silent films. We think of the the comedies.

Those are the ones that that that we think of in terms of silent film often now. But the drama, the romances were highly sexual, highly like the storytelling was was was really amazing and visual. And so the sex is sex and it’s it’s it’s sexy stuff.

Sexy sex. Come on. You could talk better than that.

But it’s the the silent era was was more than just what we think. And so the the story of Salome as a film is pretty juicy and steamy. It is.

And it’s you know, there’s a lot of talk about it in the in the play just about what the story is. And it’s it’s not something that is doesn’t sound like a sellable thing sometimes. But the other cool thing about working on this this piece was also to really explore these three characters and how they fit into this time period.

How did they feel fit into the queer world and ultimately how their lives were affected by the making of this movie? Netta, I just want to bring you in and I want to talk to you a little bit about about how this story resonates for you. Yes, I mean, I like Steven, I’m so interested in in queer history and particularly in these cycles of queer history and the things that that are erased. And I think it’s particularly relevant now.

You know, we’re looking at a play that is set exactly 100 years ago, and it really makes us question this myth of the endless forward march of progress. You know, I think it’s such an important thing to look at this beautiful period and in the history of Hollywood, where queerness was, if not completely public and accepted, certainly a very open secret. And as Steven and you both talked about, you know, displayed on film in ways that we might not expect looking back from 100 years in the future, and that that could be taken away so quickly when people in power became afraid.

That’s something I really resonate with. And I find incredibly contemporary in this piece that Steven has written. As a person who’s who’s I’ve done a lot of watching of silent film.

So years ago, I was involved with a company trying to create plays in the style of silent film. So we watched a lot of silent film, just to sort of like find our style and things like that. Do you have have you watched? Have you been watching some some silent films? And if so, what what films have really resonated for you both? Well, I’ll tell you, I have made a specific point of not watching the Nezuma of Salome while we were working on this production.

I didn’t want to have the real people in my mind, you know, as much as this is a historical play and based on real people and their lives and their artistry. It is this beautiful fictionalized story that Steven has created. And I wanted to make sure to that I wanted to do justice to the characters as he had written them and not be trying to recreate anything that we saw on screen.

But I do love the silent film era, particularly in terms of the design, which is, you know, I play the character of Natasha Rambova. I’m pronouncing her name like she’s really Russian. Of course, she was not.

She was a Midwestern girl named Winifred. But that enticement of, you know, as they would have thought of it, the exotic was was all over it. But, you know, the design, she was the costume designer for Salome, the costume production designer for a number of massive films with MGM and directed by Cecil DeMille in the era.

And I think, you know, when we’re looking at silent films, the design, the costume design, the lighting are all the more important because that’s what’s telling the story. You know, the facial expressions, the camera angles. Yes, absolutely.

But what they were doing with the costumes was out of this world in terms of the stylization. The costumes themselves, I think, were a character. So that I find very, very exciting.

And I’ve certainly been looking at all of Rambova’s designs. She’s absolutely an artist. Steven, how about you? What silent films have you been watching have resonated with you? Well, it’s interesting because I actually have this like pact with my partner that if I were to die in some freak accident, there’s certain movies that he would have to get rid of out of the video collection.

Because I watch a lot of different silent films, and I’ve got a copy of Birth of a Nation in my collection. Because I like knowing the context of why things are being made. And I like knowing when I’m reading descriptions of films, or I like to actually see the actual film and see what the filmmaker was making.

Because a very controversial film, not a good film at all. But like Nada mentioned, the ideas behind design and stuff like that were so stunning in the film. So I really do see those.

I mean, I’ve actually watched probably more. Like I have watched that one. I’ve watched a number of like Russian silent films, a number of German silent films.

And I’d love to see the differences between each culture and stuff as well too. This film in particular, I did watch this one. You can actually watch it on said streaming service.

I don’t know if we want to advertise. But this one I really watched because I really want to see where these three characters were putting their effort into. And it was so stunning to watch this film.

And knowing what they’re doing. And you know, something like some people today might laugh at something like this film. But the acting is interesting.

The art artistry is so stunning to watch. And such a loss that a lot of these filmmakers stopped making because of what society had said. Absolutely, absolutely.

It’s funny what you mentioned about sort of like allude to copyright. But what I love about the early silent era is anything pre-1924 is public domain. And so that stuff that you watch, if you find it on YouTube, all that stuff is legal.

Well, I was going to mention the other one that starts with N, but anyways. Oh, that one. That one.

Okay. Yeah. Actually, I’ve often been really, really disappointed with the N words selection in silent film.

Believe me, because when you’re going, when you’re searching for an obscure Buster Keaton film, they’re not the place to find it. No, no, it’s not. There’s one thing they did do very well.

A number of years ago, they put on something called Pioneer Black Filmmakers. And then they have a Pioneer Women, Female Filmmakers, which is where Salome fit into. And I, that’s one thing I actually do love to watch.

But, but yeah, some other selections are less than, less than well, well chosen. Well, it’s not just sometimes, I mean, you have the film quality and we’ve lost so many films, so many silent films, just because of the, the nature of the film. It was the film stock it was shot on.

So the fact that we have as many as we do is always, is always quite astounding. Just to ask about the, the creation of, of this show, was this written over the pandemic? Was it pre-pandemic? Tell me about, about, from, from inception to completion, when were you writing it and how did you, what was that process like, Stephen? So for me, I did some research beforehand, like many years ago, about a number of the more lesbian aspects of Hollywood. And I was fascinated by the book and I never, I thought, Oh, I should make, keep this book around in case I want to do something.

And then I didn’t keep it. Unfortunately, I got rid of it at some point. And then during the pandemic, so I’d worked with Rebecca Perry on a piece called Sarah Frank a few years ago for the French, I guess it was 2021.

And so we had worked on that and she was talking to me about some of her own personal kind of reclaiming herself in a sense and her own identity. And we had talked about certain things I knew she loved Hollywood. And I, I remember these stories about Allah and I was like, you know, something, this would be a great way for you to kind of introduce, reintroduce yourself a little bit into this really incredible character.

And on top of it, you don’t, you won’t have to sing anything because there’s no singing in Allah, but it also offers you a chance as an actor to do something a little different. And so, but then it became something bigger than that. And I, when I started, I wrote about, like, I guess it was back in the late fall, I think I started to write it.

And then we kind of, we’re kind of going through the script a little bit. I stumbled the first time I started to write it and then I found a second version and I went, that’s what I want to talk about. And it allowed me to have just a lot of fun playing with these characters.

So the creation of it really was a little twofold of my love of Hollywood and his queer history, but also, also hopefully writing something for Rebecca to have that’s something a little different than what she normally does. Cause I, you know, I’m, I’m sure Netta can speak to this as well too, but sometimes, you know, in our, in our little worlds of theatre, people see us and go, well, that’s what you should be doing. You should be doing only this.

And I’m like, I’m like the opposite. I’m like, I love to throw actors into something that’s nothing like what they usually do or something that really is very personal to them or very driven by them. And so that’s where this piece kind of came to be, came together.

Yeah. The, the whole, um, the, you know, the industry sees you when you become that one thing is, uh, uh, you know, I mean, it’s easy, right? It’s, it’s like you fall into it cause it’s easy, but then there’s that challenge of, of doing something completely new. If I could nerd out with you for a second, Steven, you mentioned the stumbling the first time, just as a writing nerd, um, what could you, if you could compare the, the first one where you stumbled and, and, and the, the current one, what was that difference? What was happening in that first, that first attempt that you call the stumble, uh, as opposed to, as to, as opposed to this one.

Okay. So the big thing, this, the first one was, uh, it was set quite a number of years later, near the end of her life. Um, and what involved, it was really all her.

It was really all her. And what it ended up being was these two conservative Christians breaking into the garden of our, uh, and, um, getting caught by her and then being kind of forced to hear her life story to some degree. And it was, it was cute.

I liked there was parts of it. I liked, but what I didn’t like was that I really love how characters connect with each other and how they, um, the connections between people. I really, I love that.

And so I was like, I’m, I start to lose connection with these two other characters and just telling her story. And I realized it was so expository and I didn’t really want to be an expository play. I want you to feel something.

I want you to connect with these people. I want you to see it kind of in their own, in their own life, right. Their own time and everything.

So, um, that’s where I just ended up kind of scrapping that script and then going from scratch and then realizing that Salome was really my starting point. Yeah. How far into it were you, were you before you realized that it was not like coming together the way you wanted? Oh, very easily.

I, it was like three pages and it was like, I guess I started writing, you know, I’m very much an intuitive writer. So it’s like, when I feel something’s not working, I find it pretty fast. It’s like, Nope, not working.

It happened to me once with, um, a 24 hour playwriting competition time and I’m writing this play and I wrote like three or four pages and I realized it was like the meanest play I’d ever written. I said, I just, I just hated it. So yeah, no, I realized what I love writing is characters.

I like trying to find that connection between characters. Not, I don’t like characters who just kind of exist purely for the sake of existing. Yeah.

This, this, this time and period of, uh, of Hollywood is particularly interesting. And, um, I want to, I want, cause I know there’s something that Netta is interested in. I know that you’re interested in it, Stephen, because of queer history, but there are parallels, um, in terms of like the, the idea of rolled back rights.

Um, and you know, we’re living in a time where there are people who want, would love nothing more than to roll back the rights that queer gay and lesbian people is trans that the, the, I hate the term, the alphabet mafia have, uh, have, have fought for and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and had, and there’s people who want to roll that back. This is a place set in a time where that rollback is, is kind of imminent. Um, how for both of you, how does this play sort of shine a light on, on today? Well, you know, I think Stephen put it so well talking about wanting to write a play where the three characters are present and they’re living in the script and he really has done that.

And I’m so excited for people to see it because what these three characters, Alan Asimova, Natasha Rambova, and Charles Bryant, um, they show us three different approaches to this kind of encroaching rollback of rights. Um, you know, you have one character who just refuses to see it and just wants to live in the joy, the present, uh, you know, and maybe the fantasy of how good things are without realizing the threat that’s encroaching. You have one character who’s entirely focused on the threat and in the end decides to save themselves perhaps at the expense of their community.

And you have one character who I think in a way is trying to straddle both these things. Um, and I think that’s, that’s exactly where people end up. It’s so hard.

You know, it’s always easy to look back in history and, and think we know what we would have done in the moment. We’ve all done that. Certainly in the last number of years, as we’ve seen so many historic assaults on, on human rights and human dignity, we all think, well, had I been there when, when such and such historic event happened, I would have done differently.

But then the question is, what do you do now when it’s happening in this very moment? And it can be very subtle. And I think that’s what Stephen has done so well without being in any way to expository looking at, at the, the gradual encroachment of this conservatism in Hollywood, the Hays Code coming in with it, it starts, you know, and I’m sure Stephen could speak to this more, but it starts as whispers. You know, I heard that this person named Hayes has been hired by the government.

I heard that they’re drafting a code that’s going to legislate what can and can’t be done in Hollywood. But when it’s only whispers, it’s really hard to believe that it’s going to affect you. And I think that’s the lesson we can take from this play and that we can and really have to apply every day now going forward.

That when you start to hear whispers, you have to start paying attention. You have to start finding out very, very quickly what you can do because it’s shocking how quickly whispers, things happening maybe in a different community can start to affect you and your community and your work. And we know we have to stand up before it affects us because generally before it affects you, it has affected somebody more vulnerable.

The frightening thing about whispers is, sorry, Stephen, the frightening thing about whispers is it’s almost like, it’s the chance to speak up, the whispers are somebody testing the grounds like, oh, this thing might be happening. What do the people think about this? Will they ignore it? Can we get away with it if we do it? It’s like this move forward towards something. And whispers are important to listen to.

Stephen, I jumped in right before you. Oh, no worries. I was going to kind of mention was, you know, these days we’re taught, we’re using this word called allyhood a lot.

And it’s a good word. But there’s two challenges with the whole idea of being allies and to speak up. And the two challenges are that you have to care about someone else as much as you do yourself, which is a very challenging thing in somewhat, sometimes we have very individualistic society right now.

The other thing is that we can’t make allyhood, it’s more than putting a post up. It’s more than all that. But it’s also, it can’t be unattainable.

It can’t be, I said this Monday, it can’t be enlightenment. It can’t be something that we’re constantly told we can’t do. There are things we can do every day.

And you know something, you know, we’re talking about whispers and I’m going to tell you a personal story. Literally this happened like last week for which was my partner and I have just moved out to Kitchener. And we decided for the first time ever to put a gay rights flag or gay flag out there as the progress flag actually.

And we kind of stable it to our porch, our front, and someone took it down. Someone stole it. And I mean, it could be the wind, but I don’t think so.

But I mean, those are small steps when you start to see things going back and forth, where the simple act of just putting a flag out can cause a reaction to someone else. And that’s, you know, that’s where we start. That’s where do we start when we need to speak up for things? Because sometimes those little whispers, those small little things, they start to add up really fast.

And we do need to speak up and say something when those things happen. Exactly, Stephen, and speak up before it gets too bad. Absolutely.

Absolutely. No, not as Stephen and I have spoken a couple of times before, so I’m going to jump to the part where I ask you one of my favorite questions. All right.

And my favorite question to ask my guests is about their theatre origin stories. What is it that drew you to this and made you want to do this? What was the path that brought you to where you are now? Oh, my God. Well, I can tell you the exact moment.

I was four or five years old. I was a little kid with curly red hair wearing a velvet dress in the early 90s. And I was in the dressing room at the Leopold’s Theatre saying, muzzle to have and break a leg to my dad before he went on stage to do a production of Joseph.

And so I was I was a backstage kid. My dad’s an actor. My mom had been in theatre as well when I was young.

And I got bit by the bug very, very young. And it was all I ever wanted to do. I think I got my first agent when I was about 11 years old.

I ended up going into a pre-professional arts high school environment doing theatre there. And and then I hit the age of 18. And I had a very early midlife crisis, just scheduled it a few years in advance and freaked out and was not sure if I could pursue this path.

You know, I think that’s one thing about being exposed to it. Yeah. And you see all the wonderful things about being an actor.

I saw my dad just getting to travel and getting to have so much fun and tell stories and meet all these wonderful people and live in that magical Narnia backstage world. And I also saw the difficulty of waiting by the phone and of having to have other jobs and financial insecurity. And I think there were a lot of reasons that I wasn’t ready to head right into the industry when I was 18.

But for whatever reason, I left. I gave it up. And it took me 12 years to come back.

I went off and I had every other job I ever thought I might want to do. I was a bartender. I cleaned toilets at a hotel.

I was a tour guide, a travel writer. I worked for the Ministry of Heritage for a while. I was a theatre administrator.

I, for a very bizarre two years, was the manager of digital media for a large Canadian media conglomerate. It was very strange, didn’t suit me at all. And I think underneath it all, all I ever wanted to do was get back to theatre.

But I needed 12 years to run in circles until I found my way back. And when I came back, which is now only five years ago, still relatively recent. But at that point, I had done everything else.

I had tried all the other paths. I had tried to live without being an actor. And nothing was as good as being in theatre.

So I found my way back. And now nobody’s going to be able to get rid of me. Now, was there something in particular that drew you back in? Or was it just that you’d exhausted everything else and realized theatre was what you had to do? Done literally everything else I could possibly do.

No, well, that I can tell you the exact moment as well. And give a shout out to an incredible local performer. I had just gone through some other major life changes personally.

And I had gone out to the theatre one night in October 2017 by myself. I was at Aki Studio. And I was seeing the premier production of Other Side of the Game.

And I was watching Virgilio Griffiths just absolutely knock this role out of the park. And I was sitting in the front row. And all of a sudden, I kind of started shaking.

I felt a panic attack coming on, examining what is this feeling? And the feeling was, oh, my God, I want to be doing that. Oh, my God, she’s so good. If she’s so good, I want to be that good.

And I didn’t know what to do because I was at the theatre by myself sitting front row in a one-act play. I couldn’t exactly leave and go into the lobby and finish having my panic attack in peace. So dug my nails into my leg and watched the rest of this brilliant play by Amanda Parrish and this brilliant performance by Virgilio and got home.

And I think it’s a feeling so many of us who are artists and who have these nonlinear career paths think we have these moments of a fear of wasted time, a fear of lost opportunity. And that was the first feeling I had realizing that I really missed acting was, oh, my God, I’ve wasted over a decade. And then the feeling that came after that was, who says? Who says it’s a waste? Who says this isn’t exactly the right time? And so that was it.

Virgilio’s incredible performance in that play was the kick that I needed to realize that I missed acting so much and that it was the right time to get back to it. So, blessedly, I had an agent who had scouted me when I was a teenager and who, when I left acting, had always said, well, you call me first if you ever decide you want to go back to the business. And I did, just 12 years later, gave her a call and said, were you serious about that? Did the offer expire after a decade? And she was like, yeah, come in, we’ll chat.

Blessed good agents. There’s that fascinating moment of realizing that this is what you want to do. And that idea of wasted time jumps out at me because in some ways, and this is, I think, is valuable, in some ways, you now have a life experience that some other people in the theatre don’t have.

You’ve worked, I hate saying it, quote unquote, real jobs. And so you have that to draw on that, what is it like doing the quote unquote regular job, which is something that sometimes people who are in the theatre don’t necessarily get to have. Years ago, I burned out from producing a massive production of something and went through the motions and then was like, I’m giving up theatre.

And I left theatre for a while until five years later, a friend was like, I want you to do this. I have a play, I want you to be in it. And I was like, I don’t do that anymore.

And then they hit me with the play that I couldn’t say no to and the role that I couldn’t say no to. So I was like, oh, you know my weakness, you’re my kryptonite. And then I figured out how to balance work and theatre, which was an important thing to learn that it was possible.

Yes. Yes. I think that’s exactly it.

And in the end, once I got over that initial wave of sort of the shame and the anxiety of that myth of missed opportunity, what I found was I’m so glad that I left when I did. I don’t think that, I don’t think it would have been the right time for me to be an actor at 18. I don’t know who I would be as a person, let alone as an actor, had I gone to theatre school at 18 and gone straight into trying to make this my entire life.

I’m so grateful for the experience I have. And I think it certainly makes me a better actor, but probably also a better colleague. And as you said, you talked about, you know, this idea of, of balancing the business and the art side of it.

I think I have that, you know, I’ve made a living in a million different ways since I was 18 years old. And that leaves me with this confidence that in one way or another, I can hustle. I can always find a way to pay my bills, whether it’s in the arts or not.

And for me, that has brought so much joy, so much more joy to being an actor, because I don’t think I ever walk into the room desperate. You know, for me, it’s just this amazing play time. And I’m endlessly grateful for it because for 12 years, I didn’t have it.

So, I feel that the career I have now, which I certainly hope I’m going to continue to build, and it’s going to go in directions that I can’t imagine today. But I think it’s sustainable in a way that it never would have been, had I entered this field as a young teenager in my early 20s. You know, and I think to bring it back around to talking about this beautiful play that Stephen’s written, so much of what this play is about, is about how to sustain a career as an artist in a world that is not necessarily set up for your success.

You know, people who so desperately want to make art that is true to them. Yeah. Stephen, just to bring you back in, I think I would be remiss if I did not talk about two other things.

First off, the kids show that you were talking about, which is called The Prince’s Big Adventurer. And that’s something that people see at Kids Fringe. If you could just give us a quick elevator pitch as to what that show is.

So, The Prince’s Big Adventurer is about a young prince who’s forced by his mom and dad to rescue a princess from a tower. But his father realizes he’s not very good at that type of thing. So, he hires an adventurer in the village to go with them, who he ultimately falls in love with.

And so, it was my chance to write sort of a gay fairy tale. It was my chance to kind of break a few of the rules and stuff like that. But it was also a chance to write music for the first time, which I’ve never done.

I hadn’t been able to do most of that stuff. I’m not a musician in that sense. I like just writing lyrics.

But it’s a show that I’m making with a lot of friends who are people, all people who I’ve worked with over the last number of years, a very diverse group of friends, and a chance just to kind of do something a little different. And I love doing that. I love kind of playing against the type a little bit.

The other show that I want to talk about is Three Ordinary Men. Now, I had the pleasure of talking with the three gents who are starring in that show just a little while ago. And I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that show, because it’s on now.

And also, you’re a person who is a history buff. And a lot of the plays that we’ve talked about in the past are historical. So is The Garden of Allah.

So is Three Ordinary Men. When you started working on Three Ordinary Men, was that something that you took to cahoots? Is that something you were already working on? What’s the story of the creation of that show? Okay, so I actually sit back and go, when did I actually tell myself I was going to write that story? And I can’t seem to remember when I did that. All I do remember is I found that story.

And I said to myself that one thing I really crave when I’m writing is the idea of connection between characters, and connection between people who are different. And that will seem like the one most perfect connection stories I’ve ever seen or read. And I said, I want to write a play around that.

And then when I went diving into it, I realized that most people who when they wrote about it, they wrote about what happened after the murder. They all talked about that. And I said, but I want to know why these three guys started to do what they’re doing.

That’s what I want to know. Because I think that’s a story that we all need to hear right now. We need to know that when you’re facing horrible times and stuff like that, what keeps you going? And that’s what these guys are about.

How it got to Kahoot. So obviously Tasha directed Seat Next to the King years back in 2017. And we still had a great relationship.

And she knows I’ll just start sending her scripts like whenever I feel like it. And often sometimes she’ll either tell me, no, don’t write that. And that makes me want to write it more.

And then sometimes she’s like, nope, that’s not interesting to me. I’m like, okay, that’s totally cool. And so with this script I remember sending it to her and literally like, I don’t think it could be even more than 30 seconds to a minute later.

She called me and said, you’re writing about them. And that was one of the most powerful things for me because it was obviously a story so personal to her. And it was something that I knew that she really, it’s someone I knew instantly that it’s someone who I would trust with that script.

So she loved it. And she said, if I ever get a chance to direct, that’d be great. But at that point, she wasn’t actually at Kahoot at that point in time.

And so when she ended up taking on the artistic director at Kahoot, I made it very clear to her. I said, I know I’m not your mandate. I know I don’t fit in there.

So I’m never going to ask you to do something that I know you can’t do. And so I didn’t really think about it being a Kahoot project. And then she messaged me.

I think it was her and Lisa, I think it was at the time and said, Stephen, we want to do three ordinary men for Kahoot. And I said, are you sure about this? Just cause, right? I mean, and she said, no, it’s a piece that we’d like to do. I’m like, okay, then I’ll go with you on this one.

Cause I do, the idea of representation is again, so important in theatre right now. It has to be represented across the board. And so, kind of knowing that, with that one small exception of being queer, gay myself, I didn’t quite fit into the mandate for Kahoot.

But she has made me feel very welcome to do that. And I felt very comfortable there. I also know that there’s more space open up there for other people to come in as writers as well, too.

So I just, I don’t take any moment for granted with this. And it’s to tell you just, you just just found out today that we’re completely sold out for the entire run. So obviously people are connecting with this piece.

Wow. Congratulations on that. That’s pretty amazing.

Yeah. We just found out. Yeah.

We were new, we’re getting close. It’s a very small house. That’s one thing we got to tell people.

It’s a very small house of only, well, 40 people. And it’s because Tasha really loves the incubator space. It’s a really beautiful space.

It’s a really intimate space. And that’s what Tasha loves. She loves intimate plays in that sense.

And so, yeah, no, we just found out today. And of course now we know it’s going to be that moment when we have friends come to us going, so are you sure there’s no more tickets? And we have to say something, but you know, who knows, you know, you know, maybe I’ll come back again after this. That’s a possibility.

You know, I know Tanisha, she always likes to do that. And we’re always talking about the 10th anniversary of Seat Next to the King. We’ve already talked about this.

So that’s, I mean, incredible that that show is sold out. And congratulations to you and to Kahoots and all the guys. The heading into Fringe, which, you know, I guess as we record this tomorrow is the launch for Fringe as they release the schedule and the programs and all that sort of stuff.

This is the first in-person Fringe that we’ve had in two years. And I’m curious for both of you, how you feel about that and how you are preparing to have a show in person once again. Do you want to speak to that, Netta? I don’t know.

Yeah, you go ahead, Netta. Sorry, I’m not on my own computer and I lost the mouse as you do sometimes. I’m so excited.

I mean, what else can I say? I’m so incredibly excited to be back doing live theatre. And something that I have found, you know, both in the shows that I’ve done since reopening and also working as a front of house staff member at Buddies in Bad Times, is that theatre audiences have such a high value placed on community care. So I would say, you know, in terms of COVID safety, there are few public spaces that I feel more safe than in a Toronto theatre right now, where people are wearing masks.

You know, they’re thanking the front of house staff members saying, you know, thank you for checking vaccines. I’m so glad that I can come to this and feel safe. So knowing that we can create this experience for people, that we can have this Toronto summer staple that we’ve missed for so long and do it, you know, in the relative safety as much as we can given the circumstances, it makes me really excited and really proud to be a part of that.

And I can only imagine the work that’s going into it from the fringe organizer’s side. So I want to give them a shout out, certainly. For me, it’s so exciting to be back to live.

So I did four digital projects. So I did one for both fringes, and then one for Hampton Fringe as well, and then went for next stage. And I can just tell you, I mean, I love I loved working on digital projects.

They were, they’re very creative, fun for me. It kept me writing through the COVID years when Oh, am I recording still? Hello? Yeah, sorry. You’re good.

You’re good. I’m good. Oh, so anyway, sorry.

And so getting back into but live theatre is a different kettle of fish. And I love it. I love the challenge of it.

I love the audiences that you know, are going to be there. I love the fact that you get to get more feedback for people like digital projects, you just never knew who was listening, who was coming, who was taking that chance to invest in something that’s digital, when they could be going on to their TVs or, and do streaming services or something. Or it’s, it’s live theatre, there is simply nothing like it.

And to be actually back and having, like right now, I’m enjoying so much hearing having people hear the words from three ordinary men. And I can’t wait for them to hear the Garden of Valor. I can’t wait for them to hear the Princess Big Adventure.

And it’s like, it’s, it’s a beautiful, beautiful thing. The thing with with digital theatre, and you know, you’ve got two ways of doing it. And we’ve all sort of seen various attempts at it.

You’ve got your live stream, you’ve got your pre recorded, and or a combination of the two. I think I started went looking for a while early on in the pandemic to see like, what, what could you use effectively for live stream, because I felt like, you know, if you were going to record it, then maybe that wouldn’t be as theatrical on that maybe live stream, but there’s no good platform for live streaming theatre. There’s no way for you to hear the audience, there’s no way for for at least effectively, so many problems.

And I wished it, I wish that was something that somebody found a need to tackle over the pandemic. But I’m so glad to be seeing things back in person. Even though I have to admit, I still, you know, I’ve spent like two years avoiding people.

So there’s always that moment going into a theatre where it’s sort of get a little hand sweaty sort of thing going on. Well, I can say that, you know, doing some digital projects was that in both in two, two or three of the cases, where we did them, we actually tried to make it as theatre as possible in like having the actors fully off book, fully present for like one, like one recording only. And I found that was a very different experience and a very enjoyable experience.

Because again, it brought it to be as theatre as we can make theatre without the audience without it being completely live. But at least it was like one take. Yeah, I think I mean, once you go beyond that, then you’re getting into like film and things like that.

But I think there is possibility. I also still maintain that there should, I think there should be possibility for live stream in like the future. As far as like maybe live streaming a performance of a show, that sort of thing.

I still think that that expands the reach of the theatre and allows us to present to people that maybe couldn’t get to the theatre and things like that, even though there are logistics around that. Yeah, you know, I think so in so many ways, the pandemic, you know, has been horrific, no question about that. It’s also showed us what’s possible, particularly in terms of community care and accessibility.

And, you know, if we were able to find the money, if the grants were able to come through from government funding to make it possible to live stream productions, to have longer, safer, gentler rehearsal periods, you know, I don’t think that there’s any reason that that should stop. You know, the pandemic, we know it’s not over. And also for so many people who have lived experience of disability, who are immunocompromised, it isn’t always safe to be in a large crowd full of people.

Theatre spaces are not always accessible, and certainly they should be. But we can also have these other offerings that make theatre and the arts more accessible. And I think while we can celebrate that the need for large scale digital theatre is over in terms of the fact that we can go back into the theatre, we should absolutely be live streaming.

We should have digital offerings. We should have all the accessibility measures that we’ve now gained experience on how to do. And I think that should just become part of the norm going forward, as well as safer work environments, not coming in if you’re feeling ill, being able to rehearse from home or have flexible work days, you know, if you have young children or for any reason, or another job.

I think there are a lot of lessons that we’ve learned from this pandemic that can make a career in the arts as well as being an audience member so much more accessible. You know, I was reminded recently of an incident when I was in theatre school. And the incident was I was sick, like legitimately sick.

And I missed a day and I got a call from the administrator at the school saying, I understand that you’re sick, but if you miss another day, you’re out of the school. And like that kind of working in the theatre is literally unhealthy. Like you’re gonna, you’re asking me to go to the school and affect my co-workers, my colleagues with whatever it is I’m bringing in.

But I think that that’s something that was just assumed that would happen in the industry. You’re sick, you fight through it, you come in, that sort of thing. And I’m hoping that with our understanding from the pandemic, that maybe that’s not the best thing that we could do.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. We can take such better care of each other. We can make this such a kinder profession.

Totally. Neda, Stephen, I want to thank you both for sitting down with me today. I’m so looking forward to the Garden of Allah.

And I look forward to seeing you guys at whatever fringe tent you happen to be at. Thank you so much, Phil. This has been so much fun.

Thank you very much, Phil. I really always enjoy your interviews.