Vikki Velenosi

Vikki describes herself as a storyteller, a serial entrepreneur and a fighter of the status quo. She lives in Toronto with her dog GusGus and her two cats, Matt Damon and Gracie Lou Freebush.
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Current Projects
Founder/CEO-Space Space Revolution
Head Writer-Business Owner By Mistake Blog
Co-Founder-Brick and Mortar Theatre and Studios (RIP)

Twitter: @Vikkivelenosi
Instagram: @businessownerbymistake

2 Robs, 1 Cup: What Happens When You’re Done Eating Shit?
Tickets: https://fringetoronto.com/fringe/show/2-robs-1-cup-what-happens-when-youre-done-eating-shit

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Transcript

Welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host of this podcast. This is episode 330.

Stageworthy is a one-person operation, so not only do I arrange the guests, I edit the show, I promote the show, and I even created the music. And although you get this show for free, I still shoulder all of the financial responsibilities to keep this show going. So if you enjoy Stageworthy, please consider supporting it.

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And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com. My guest this week is Vicki Villanosi. Vicki is a storyteller, a serial entrepreneur, and a fighter of the status quo. Her latest show, Two Robs, One Cup, What Happens When You’re Done Eating Shit, appears at the Toronto Fringe Festival, July 6th to 17th.

Here’s our conversation. As far as you know, you’re at the Aki Studio. Yes, yeah.

And I don’t believe that’s changing. I just did my venue walkthrough yesterday. So, you know, things are moving.

Things are moving along. And yeah, I am thrilled because I live right next door to the Aki Studio. So I am like, just so happy.

Oh geez, you can’t get much more convenient than that. I know. When I heard that they were doing shows at the Daniel Spectrum and, you know, in the two different venues there, I just decided, I thought, if I don’t have one of those two venues, I’m not doing it.

I’m not going to walk past. I’m not going to walk out my door and walk past a venue to then go to the other side of town. No.

I mean, there’s something, I don’t know about you, but as people who’ve listened to this podcast know, flyering is not my favorite thing. And the idea of being able to be in my apartment, psych myself up, go outside, flyer, and then run inside and run away from that is kind of wonderful. I know.

I’m so excited. I could throw them off my balcony and just be like, there you go. That’d be quite a, I mean, that’d be an interesting event.

I think it’d be probably illegal or something. I’m sure that number one, your building would probably be coming to your door very quickly. Has my name on it? No.

I’ll throw someone else’s. Yeah, throw somebody else’s. Yeah, that’ll be good.

You can pay me. I’ll throw yours. No one will know.

Well, the show is called Two Robs, One Cup. What Happens When You’re Done Eating Shit? Yes, it is. Um, what can you tell me about that show? Just to see, there are some people who didn’t live through the Two Girls, One Cup era of the internet.

Yes, of course. And I think they should be grateful. I think they should be grateful that they didn’t live through that period, just because it’s better that way.

So your title harkens to that just enough that it makes me twinge a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good.

Tell me about the show. Um, you know, I think this is what happens when I’m done eating shit, really. It is.

Like, it’s a very personal show. It’s very much about my journey and story over the last decade of, um, of relationships. But even going back further than that to the, you know, the things I decided as a child that no longer serve me, but yet I held on to for so, so many decades.

Um, and, uh, yeah, I’ve just, I think that, you know, as, as it did for everyone, the pandemic changed, changed us all, um, changed me and gave me a lot, uh, a lot less reasons to take any shit from anyone. Um, and only when I started realizing how much shit I was eating, I’m just gonna keep talking about shit a lot just for the next bit. But, um, once I realized how much shit I was eating, taking on, it just didn’t make any sense anymore.

And I’ve learned a lot about myself in the last two years, just in, I feel like it was a two year, go to your room, go to your room, think about what you’ve done two years. And I did, I did go to my room and I thought a lot, and then this show happened, this show happened. I have, cause I know that you, you, you’re very active on Tik TOK and you’re, you’re sort of, you’re, you’re like confessional sort of like talking about, about stuff on Tik TOK.

Did, did speaking on doing that on Tik TOK, uh, inform this show? Did it, did it help to, to clarify any ideas or is it completely separate? Absolutely. It’s like, it’s totally a part of that. So thank you for reminding me that that’s part of my life.

Uh, and this show, because the, uh, the development of this show also, and also the thinking and reflecting that I did, it did come a lot from sharing on Tik TOK and being feeling so deprived of the ability to share stories and then finding Tik TOK and then sharing that way. And just the weird, I know you’re on there too. So like, you know, the weird wild world of what you become, what becomes available to you on Tik TOK, just who you can connect with on there.

You know, you make something that takes you 15 seconds and you’re in front of thousands of people, not always obviously, but you know that it has that potential there. So I think learning for me, learning about sharing vulnerably, that’s the biggest takeaway I have from what I’ve done on Tik TOK is learning how to share vulnerably and in learning how to share vulnerably, finding out what kind of stories really mean a lot to people. And I think for me, the stories that I’ve found resonate the most with just people in general, or the stories I tell that people seem to pay attention and want more of are the ones of personal triumph or the ones of, um, finding out my own self-worth and cut and overcoming that.

And I think it’s so easy to forget how many people there are in the world, you know, and if you’ve struggled with anything at all and overcome it, absolutely. There are probably millions of other people who have dealt with the same thing. So share in sharing that transition or in sharing what I’ve learned, I found that that’s where I have a lot of value for people and I can connect a lot of people that way and I can make a difference too.

So, um, yeah, this show is absolutely based on a lot of stories that I have, I have shared on Tik TOK, a lot of responses I’ve received from people, uh, because it’s, it is not always a rosy rainbow road on Tik TOK. People, you find the best of people and the worst and responses are scary sometimes. Um, but that’s informed everything in this show too.

Just the experience of just the stuff that people feel totally fine to say, you know? Yeah. I, I wonder sometimes there’s that fine, like, yes, there’s the things that people, people for some reason feel fine to say. And, uh, I wonder sometimes about the terrible things that people say, is that what they actually believe or are they just trying to troll? It does actually does in the end, it doesn’t matter because the effect is the same, but there’s that anonymity, especially for commenters that they can say any shit in the hopes of getting a rise out of you or shutting you up.

Yes. I think what I’ve learned on Tik TOK, because this also my experience on Tik TOK has been very, um, very much a sort of a first for me sharing this widely, this often, this vulnerably, I have never really like adopted any platforms for social media wise, where I’ve shared as much as I do there and as, as frequently and vulnerably. So I’ve learned a lot about, you know, the reactions people have when you are bold and brave.

It’s like, it splits people down the middle into two camps. It’s very divisive, divisive, divisive, divisive, whatever that word is. You know, it causes division in people.

People are either like, oh my gosh, you’re, you’d like, thank you for doing that. You’re, you’re awesome. I appreciate it so much there, or it’s really just as strongly in the other direction where they are very bothered by the fact that you tried.

And I, you know, all I can look at that and think is it’s just because you’re upset that you didn’t. And I have no problem calling people out on there either. I think you should share stories.

If you’re upset the way that I did don’t share, you know, share your stories. And if you’re afraid to share your stories, because you’re afraid that somebody like you might say something like you said, try not saying stuff like that to people because you might feel more brave after that. Like I’m, I really try to be like a positive influence on even people who troll.

Sometimes it’s hard. Sometimes I’m like, you know what? I hope you die in a fire. Like, I hate your guts.

Sometimes I can’t, I can’t flip. I can’t flip myself over to the side of empathy because it’s, it is hard. When you get a troll comment or something like that, are you, do you take time before you respond or do you respond in the moment? Um, it depends.

I think if I, yeah, I think it’s a mixed bag. I usually don’t respond. I usually just delete it or no block them.

Um, the times when I do respond is it’s when it’s what somebody who also has a platform who ha who isn’t hiding behind a like blank username with profile photo, like that is that’s one that I think that’s falls into the categories you were talking about when they’re like, Hey, I just want to cause chaos. User seven, five, three, four, three, four, seven, seven, seven, five, six. You know that it’s not like a real person or anything.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, and of course it is, but I just, you know, okay, cool. But if it is somebody who has a platform, they make videos, they, you know, they’re out there and they’re trying to, you know, I, I find that that’s a different case that that actually doesn’t happen very often.

But when I do respond to something, especially if it’s someone who is trying to clearly cause damage or pain or, you know, upset or, or trying to assert a superiority in some way of like, or, you know, sometimes people will just comment something like, what are you stupid? It’s like, um, let’s talk about it. Am I, I don’t know. I don’t think people expect the response back to it, but I do sometimes.

Um, yeah. As far as the, the creation of the show, I know TikTok, as we’ve discussed TikTok, sort of informed it as the creation of the show. Um, what was the writing process like for this show? Um, it’s been, uh, it’s, it’s still in progress in a way.

I mean, it’s, it, as a new piece, that’s just, uh, just me, just a one person show. I have my director, dramaturge, who’s working with me on it. It, it has been a very informal process, I think is just the best way to put it.

And, and, you know, part of the discovery, my own personal discovery that has led me to the journey of, to write such a title about no longer eating shit. Um, it’s also a release of, you know, how things are supposed to be done. I, I know, I, you know, I know very well the traditional process of how a show should be created and rehearsed and where it should, the milestones you should be hitting at certain points.

And I’m, I’m allowing myself to be a lot more relaxed with this one because it is, uh, and that’s part of the reason I wanted to keep it just me in the show is really experiment with what process works for me. And I don’t write down stuff. I find that actually to be very stressful to try to write down the part of my show that, you know, needs to be written down and eventually, obviously it will, but during the creative process, it’s very much fluid.

And the way that I’m going to say it is going to be different as I’m developing it as, so I know what the bits are, but how I say it is, it’s not, it’s not scripted, at least not now, you know, even just a month away for a month and a bit away from the show. Like it’s so the process is very fluid, very loose, very, very me. I think is what I, I like about it.

I’m not beholden to any of my directors on board with this. Luckily, like I’m not beholden to anybody else’s process, which is awesome. And so freeing.

I want to roll to the theatre next door and I want to stand there and very non-stressedly just tell the stories the way that I want to tell them. So I’m, I’m very happy at the way that it’s going so far. Nice.

Nice. I want to move backwards in your fringe history a little bit. I want to talk about real actors, not people.

And I think, I think you’ve said before that this show, it was kind of a joke, but people missed the joke. Oh, with real actors, not people. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. The feedback that came from that show was that people didn’t walk into it thinking that it was what it was, which is, was the point we were experimenting with guerrilla style marketing and being very disruptive and just getting attention.

Like, you know, any press, good press kind of an idea. We got people talking and I think it in the end, didn’t quite hit the mark the way that we wanted it to, but the people who did see the show definitely talked about it very, very positively. And it became eventually by the end, something that people were very happy to go into and see and heard.

It was great. The atmosphere we created before the show and before it opened, I think we, people were just offended. I think it was, I think it was because it was a topic that was near and dear and very close to so many fringe goers because it was about actors.

I think it missed the mark in affecting them in the way that we had hoped for. I think if it had been a non-actor audience, the marketing plan would have made a lot more sense. And we had a lovely and amazing marketing team on the show that were not actors.

So I think that also fed into it. So it was a bit of a, like, I don’t know, but we were signing off on it going, yeah, this sounds great. So, you know, it is what it is and that’s where, that’s what happens.

And I, it was fun. And in the end, I don’t think, you know, there was any harm done. We didn’t actually, I think people were just preparing themselves that we were going to offend them.

We didn’t actually offend anybody in the process. As far as I know, maybe we did. It was fun.

Did you learn anything about marketing from that show? What, like, are there lessons that you took from that initial reaction? Yes, of course. I think learning to, it’s hard, but I don’t know if there was, the lesson that I would take away would be, you know, start a little slower, test a little better. But there isn’t really time for that in a fringe setting per se.

So, you know, take as much, take as much time as possible, but, you know, that’s pretty much like a couple more days, you know, like, that’s all you’d ever be able to spare. And then I think have more people in on the joke, like bring more people in deliberately ahead of time in on it, in on the, in on the, you know, I feel like it’s, it’s almost like the Beaverton. Right.

You know, we’re like, if no one’s in on the joke, that publication doesn’t work. Right. And not that, you know, what we were doing was the same as what they were doing, but I do think we needed to bring, there had to be someone in every room that was like, it’s fake.

They’re joking. It must be the plant in the audience. Yes.

In every room, in every city. You just need some one person who’s like job is to say, oh my goodness, they’re not serious. Yeah.

But you know, by the takeaway from that, that is definitely going into, into this, this marketing plan for this show as well at the fringe and everything that I, I do marketing wise is that there’s no rules. You feel like there’s rules, but there really aren’t, of course there are consequences if you, you know, do certain things, but when you’re marketing a show, especially for fringe, the rules are really not, not there, like they seem to be. And, you know, I know you mentioned not liking flyering.

You don’t have to flyer. Like, don’t then, you know, it’s like, whatever, if it doesn’t feel right or it doesn’t feel like something that you’re going to be able to get up and do, and you’re going to be miserable having to do it, put the efforts towards something that you enjoy because at the end of the day, you got to do it. Yeah.

Nobody else. I was really fortunate with, with my solo show in 2019 that my stage manager was really good at that stuff and like, seemed to really enjoy it. So I would, I would be psyching myself up to do a line and then I would arrive and he’d already be there.

So I was like, okay, that’s fine. I don’t need to do it then. But he was, it was like, it’s good.

If you’re an introverted person who has difficulty doing that, it’s good to have somebody on your team who is not. Yes. Totally.

There are so many people that are willing to help and contribute, especially during fringe. And I think, you know, embracing that and allowing people to contribute as they want is, is awesome. Yeah.

I don’t like flyering either. It’s always fun though. If you, if you, if you tour to figure out what the, like which fringes are not flyering fringes.

Oh, okay. I’ve never done any fringe other than Toronto and Hamilton. Because like, I found, I found Hamilton, not a very flyery place.

I mean, you could do it, but it’s not a huge part of the culture. Places like Edmonton and Winnipeg, absolutely. Calgary and Montreal, not at all.

Huh. I’m trying to remember. I only did Hamilton fringe once and I don’t remember if we even did flyer at all.

Now that I think about it. I just recall like going to places being like, I’m going to flyer this line and you get there and people, nobody shows up. And then all of a sudden they just roll in much like in Montreal, in Montreal, nobody lines up for a show at the fringe and they just sort of arrive just before the show starts.

So there’s no line to flyer ever. So people in Montreal would do is like, they flyer the exit of the theatre and they’d stand there like trying to desperately to hand out their flyers to people as they came out. But it’s like fringe culture is different everywhere.

It’s fascinating. Well, my, my, my, I always try to make my titles and descriptions very flyer friendly or very, you know, very, uh, program friendly or very, all you need to do is hear about it. And you go, well, I think I want to see that one.

That’s always my aim at fringe. It’s like making something where like the title is like the title made you laugh or the title made you curious. Because I think that’s like, and same with the flyer, you know, like the photo makes you curious or like that’s so your lifeline to get people in at those first shows, especially.

Um, so I’m hoping this one, all I have to do is just like quietly hand somebody a postcard and be like, there you go. And they’ll decide for themselves if this is for them. Years ago, when I was, when I was in Edmonton, um, the, there was a, a Johnny Walker was doing his show, uh, redheaded stepchild at a certain point, his show was just selling great.

I mean, it was like almost sold out every performance and he would be Walker and he wouldn’t even flyer except that he would always, he would only flyer redheads. At a certain point you’re walking, the show was like doing fine. He didn’t really need to do the work and he’d find a redhead and just go, you need to see this show.

And he’d hand them a flyer and they’d be like, I’m seeing it. And it was like, huh, this is, this is what you can do. Yeah.

I think that’s key though. And even just to target who you’re going to get to see your show, who’s then going to excitedly, emphatically let everyone know, I’m going to see it because that’s, that’s infectious. Like what’s he going to see? What is it? I want to know, am I invited? Um, so before real actors, not people was, uh, the princess of porn, the musical, which is another, um, grabber of a, of a title like that sort of jumps out at you in the, in the program and on the, on posters.

So, uh, tell me about the princess of porn, the musical. Um, I was like a year at a school and got a spot in the Toronto fringe and maybe a couple of years at a school and just had, I was so, I, I bit off so much more than I could chew and eat for weeks. It was, I had never written anything and like produced anything.

I’d never really, like my experience with musicals had been from high school. I was like, I think I’d like to do a musical. Did you write the music as well? I didn’t write the music.

I wrote like very loosely the lyric story with the music. And then I had a composer that worked with me to actually write the music. And the music was fantastic.

Like I lucked out forever and ever with the music from this show. Um, so wrote the story for some reason, like I, it was a cast of 13. I think in total, the cast and crew was like 24 people by the end.

It was just ridiculous. This is the like poster child for what not to do. No, absolutely.

You’re not going to make any money at a fringe with that kind of cast. No, but we actually did. So the thing was we had the Randolph theatre, which is then the Bathurst street theatre.

And we sold out, I think four out of seven of our shows, the ones that didn’t sell out were like packed. So we really actually did well financially on that show. But I had to, yes.

And I think, I mean, I feel like when I look back at that with what I know now of like also how to like treat a cast and crew and how to deal with people, how to manage people, how to lead people. I’m like, Oh my God, I don’t even want to face anybody who was a part of that project, which I do. I know so many people like the stage manager for my, for two robs.

One cup is actually my assistant stage manager from princess of the musical. So that, you know, but, you know, as much as it was a poster child for what not to do as a fringe, it also was exactly what you should do at the fringe at the same time. And I’m so grateful I did because I jumped in so far into the deep end and learned so much.

Just one of those, like I flew really close to the sun and I’m lucky to be alive. I do think that sometimes we forget, especially in Toronto, which is always looking for the next Kim’s convenience or whatever, that fringes fringe should be about experimentation and like taking a chance and like doing something that you quote unquote should not do. Yeah.

Yeah, it’s true. I would not do the show that I’m doing. I can’t imagine doing it like the show I’m doing now, two robs, one cup.

What happens when you’re done eating shit? I can’t imagine that I would at least come out the gate with that title for one, if it was happening anywhere else other than a fringe festival. Right. And then I don’t know if I would feel like I could go as far as I am going with the content of the show to like, I think that that is the beauty and specialness of fringe specifically feel like Toronto fringe, because you do expect the unexpected when you go to see it.

So this is where you see an absolute mess that works for some reason. So I hope to be that mess. As a fringe creator, I always appreciate those people who go those first few days to a show, like before reviews are out, you really got to love those.

I mean, essentially the beta testers because they’re the ones who aren’t like waiting for the reviews to come out before they go to see a show. They’re the ones that are like real fringers taking a risk on a show. Yeah.

I’m not sure how things are going to go this year with reviews because now magazine isn’t reviewing. Mooney on theatre’s gone. I don’t think my entertainment world is doing reviewing.

I could be wrong. I actually don’t know for sure about that, but I think Intermission Magazine, I talked to Phil who runs that, the other Phil, and I don’t think he’s going to do, he doesn’t have the capacity to do review all the fringe shows. So I’m not sure who’s reviewing.

Yeah. That’s a real challenge this year. That’s a real, I mean, and you know, it’s funny because if you go, some other cities they have, so for example, Winnipeg, CBC is reviewing all of the shows.

CBC is like making sure that like on the web and all that sort of stuff, like the Winnipeg Free Press is like reviewing all the shows. It’s massive. So it’s in the big papers there.

Edmonton, all the big papers are covering it. And in Toronto, you know, if now is not covering it, then we have online, but then if Mooney isn’t running, then who’s doing it? It’s a real problem and deficit in the city. Yeah.

So I’m not sure what is going to happen. I think it’s that wait for the review to come out audience. I don’t know what they’re going to do or if they’re going to feel confident enough to even go.

But I mean, we have, I plan on leveraging word of mouth more so than leaning on that and asking people to post on their Facebook, on their Instagram, on their social media, what they thought of the show personally, because that’s, you know, how else is anyone going to hear, Hey, this is the one to see. So yeah, it’s a, it’s a challenge, but it’s definitely a real challenge this year. It’s going to be a lot of challenges.

I mean, I mean, who knows? I mean, it’s been like two years, right? I think that everything is rusty and we’ll have to see how, how things go. I mean, it’s, you got to start somewhere. You got to pick back up somewhere.

Absolutely. I think it’s, we have, you’re right. We have to like, we can’t just wait until we have to get back on the horse, you know, we have to get back into the, into those theatres and safely.

Yes. I know that the venue, at least the Aki studio, they require masks, they require vaccination for anybody who’s going to enter the show. And who’s going to see it, which I’m glad to know.

So I can put it on the postcard just in case I have, you know, someone who does end up going to see it that you don’t want to disappoint people or stress out the volunteer box office staff. Yeah. That’s, I mean, that’s, that’s the difficulty is, is, you know, in previous years, the only thing the box office staff has had to worry about is like people arguing because they can’t get in because they’re late.

Now it can be masks and baxes. Yeah. There’s some, I’m trying to like, I’ve never done this before.

There’s an accessibility team as part of the Toronto fringe this year, and I’ve had a meeting with them and they did a seminar that I was a part of, like I was observing and they are really helping the fringe step up, giving opportunities and options to artists with what they’re going to, like what accessibility they can provide. And one of the big ones that I’m trying to sort out and how it’s going to work is relaxed performance. But the biggest hurdle for that is the amount of tech time we have.

They’re giving us an extra half an hour if we’re doing a relaxed performance, but in that time, the whole show has to be recued. Right. So I’m kind of like, I feel like this is like so good and so amazing and so important, but it feels like in order to make it happen, it has to be such a high priority.

I’m like, nervous that’s just not going to happen. And I’m trying to grapple with how do I make sure that it’s there when there’s already so much that, as you know, anytime you get into a festival, especially if it’s the first time doing a show, it’s like everything ends up down to the wire, you know, just hanging on by a thread just in time, you know, often anyway. Yeah.

No, absolutely. Absolutely. It’s a concern, but interesting in either case.

It’s always hard. I remember, you know, you’re doing tech and then you hear, oh yeah, the people before you, they didn’t even get through their tech, you know, like you find out that somebody’s show is so tech heavy that they can’t get through it in the three hours they have and that’s like so stressful. I can’t imagine being in that position.

Well, I mean, I’ve never been there personally, but I have actually heard the speech of the group before you didn’t get through their tech. I have heard that. But as you know, I also, because I have performance venues and I have tech for people, I think that what I now tell people and I think everybody at Fringe should be told this in this same kind of similar way, don’t forget what your venue is and what the festival is.

Right. Yeah. But it’s hard to say that when you have such high hopes and dreams and such a big vision for the show that you’re going to do.

So it’s hard to manage expectations when it’s, you know, it’s an art form that kind of like you’re rewarded for exceeding expectations. So you want to go for gold. You want to go for the most extreme, the most elaborate sometime.

I’m trying to do the opposite. I’d like it to be as low stress as possible. I like low stress.

I like. I like we’ve suffered enough. Both like I’m working on a show right now to take out to the Fundy Fringe and it’s going to be very low tech.

My other solo show was very low tech and it was sort of like such a rest, a restful time for the venue tech. Yeah. I bring them a coffee before the show and get their coffee order and I bring them a coffee and they would essentially get like a 50 minute break while we did the show and they did something in the beginning and some at the end and the rest of it was just restful.

So, yeah, that’s so nice. I’d like that. I’d like that.

I’ll take that piece. One of those. Thanks.

You also don’t want your tech to hate you. When you come in and you’re like, I have 120 queues. Hurry up.

Yeah. I mean, you got, I mean, yes, you have to do what the show needs, but also you like what the show needs, not necessarily like all of the things, but also like for me, it’s always like first thing that I’m asking the venue tech is like, what’s their coffee order? Yeah. Like I, I believe in taking care of the venue tech because they’re going to take care of you.

Yes, absolutely. And those times where you’re like, oh my gosh, this failed or this went out or this, this happened, they’re going to be, you know, more likely to want to help you. Yeah.

And that’s so key to have people on your team, people on your team that want you to succeed. Absolutely. I remember being at the, at the, at the Hamilton fringe with a show and it, we, we had to do a lot of makeup for this show.

And so we had the venue tech there would like the, sometimes the show before us would start and we’d be in the lobby, putting on, putting on our makeup and suddenly the venue tech would appear and be like, if you’re quiet, you can use the dressing room and he’d sneak us in. Yeah. Which was very kind thing for them to do, but apparently we’d applied them with enough coffee each time that they were kind to us.

Yeah. I want to ask you about, about a statement that you’ve made and. Oh God.

This is not a gotcha. I just want to say, it’s not a gotcha. This is not, this is not that kind of podcast.

You said, I think performing arts would be a lot more interesting if artists creating for, if I think, I think performing arts would be a lot more interesting if artists created for the audience they have instead of auditioning for the audience they want one day. Yes. Tell me about that.

This, that is from the many years I’ve spent watching so many different new and up and coming artists create their work in the spaces that I have through Space Face Revolution and like the different venues. And there was actually a show that happened in one of the venues in one of my venues that said, where a reviewer said something about like, they, I was four feet from their face, but they were acting like they were at the Elgin theatre trying to fill to the back of the room. And I know that for me, when I started producing, and I see this a lot in other people as well, that have come through my venues through the years that they are trying to get noticed by the casting director or by the, I mean, producer by the, by the anybody who’s going to hire them for the real stuff.

That’s sort of the vibe. It’s like the only reason you would self produce is so you can be, you can be noticed and you can, you can pad your resume. You can have, you know, you can have the right stuff on there.

And it, it has felt like for the, you know, decade that I’ve been having venues and having people in them, it’s felt a lot like there are artists who are only creating shows in these small theatres because they don’t have the, the break that their big break yet. It’s like they’re in waiting still, like the creation of a show in a 50 seat venue is the audition when they can’t get in the door to be seen by one of the bigger theatres. And, you know, the, the attractive part of one of the bigger theatres is one prestige, because then you can say, Hey, I actually made it when everyone said I wouldn’t, which is very important.

And then also money now, now you can make your living and there’s pride in being able to achieve that and legitimacy and being able to achieve that. But the, the best shows that I’ve seen in theatre anywhere are the ones that know that this is a 50 seat theatre or a hundred seat theatre, or they know it’s Toronto fringe or they there. And it’s not for anyone else at any other time, other than the people in that room.

And no one’s pretending that this is then going to be picked up and brought to somewhere else, or hopefully maybe like, you know, now shown to a wider audience someday, or like, this is about the actual moment that the performers are in and the audience is in simultaneously at the same time. And I think we create amazing theatre when it starts there. Hmm.

Yeah. You know, I think about, I think about, I remember hearing, um, the, you know, the initial performance of say, Billy Bishop goes to war, which was a guy on a chair with a model plane. Yes.

And that as that show became more and more popular, the, it, a lot grew around it and that eventually when it went to New York, it was like a guy climbing into a full size plane, but its initial creation was, was small and sort of like built for the space it was in. I think that like, if you concentrate and you build the show for that space, you can adapt it later. Right.

You can, you can explode it if you, if that opportunity comes, but you have to, you definitely have to be aware of the space that you’re in right now. Yes. And I think I’ll bring it back to our discussion about TikTok.

I’ve had people, I don’t know. I mean, like, I don’t have that many followers on TikTok and I’m not like, you know, there are people who are like super influencer famous on there. Not that’s not, you know, that’s not where I’m at, but there are still people who I have asked me, Hey, what, how, how do I get more views on my TikTok? Or how do I, you know, how do I get better at this? Or, you know, can you give me pointers? And that’s, again, my pointer for TikTok too.

It’s, do not forget you’re on TikTok, like know that this is TikTok. You got to familiarize yourself really, really well with what the community of TikTok is. And then you’re creating for TikTok.

If you just try to pull something over that you created on any other platform, it might not translate. And if it does, it might not translate unless without some like modification or context, or you might need a reaction video to that video, you know, like it’s, it’s a whole other beast. And I think with the way that theatre gets lumped in together, where it’s like Broadway is the same as somebody at the attic studio, you know, where people are sitting on chairs that are 30 years old in a 130 year old building with like original beams and floors that’s created and offered by one person who’s renting it out.

The context of it matters so much. It’s not the same. And that, if you put that, if you did Billy Bishop Goes to Wharf, that was the first production of it was at, let’s say the attic, or even just one of the fringe venues.

If you had that big elaborate set, I feel like it would feel wrong. It would feel like, okay, what are you doing? Like, but the DIY-ness and the truth of what it took to put it up on the stage, that matters at a base, the base level of when you start things. Yeah.

I think it’s hard for some people to, especially if you’re, if you’re really young, because you, especially if you’re in, just come out of theatre school, they probably taught you a lot about like hitting the back wall and talking to like projecting and all that sort of stuff. And then you find yourself in a small venue, and you’re not used to connecting with an audience member. Yeah.

Who’s like, right in your face. Yes, I think you’re absolutely right. There is a, the, the shows that I’ve seen that I’ve, or in small venues that are the best shows that I’ve, I’ve seen in theatre, period, are the ones that will look at someone in the audience and say, you know, like, I know.

Yeah. Like they’re, they reacted and they’re not pretending they didn’t hear them. They’re, you know, and I know that there’s some times where that’s not appropriate in terms of like fourth wall or whatever, but don’t pretend that they’re not there.

You pretending that I’m pretending that you’re pretending it’s not here. This is weird. I think that’s especially with solo shows.

I think you can like, if you’re not, if you’re not connecting with that audience, don’t pretend they’re not there. Like you need that audience to be there. They’re all you have for a scene partner.

And otherwise you get into like the, who are you performing it for? Yes. I remember Jillian English, who I had the privilege of seeing in, in Halifax when she performed. And she’s a, she is a complete master of, of, of the stage, like reacting to the audience just enough.

And like, even when sometimes people forget, Oh, you know, sometimes when you start interacting with the audience, they start to get a little into it, being able to pull back and remind them that no, she’s the performer. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

It’s such a, like to see somebody do that so easily and it comes, it’s so natural. It’s pretty impressive to watch. I just, I just looked her up on Facebook.

I’m like, I feel like I’ve seen her perform. I did see her at Toronto fringe many, many years ago. Yeah.

The, the masters of, of the solo show, I think there are exactly that. That’s the, you’re here with me, but also I’m in charge. That’s the thing, right? You’re like, I am taking you on this journey.

You’re coming with me. It’s not like I’m going with you where you are coming with me. Yes.

The I started to, you know, as you do have, have a little panic about like, I haven’t done actually done theatre, live theatre since, since real actors, not people, which was in 2017. Like I was busy building businesses between that show and then the pandemic and then the pandemic. So I’m like, I’ve been on a live stage.

Oh my gosh, what am I going to do? And then I reminded myself, no, I do children’s theatre. I do kids parties. I, you know, like that’s my, that is the business I spent those years building is my time in front of a group of kids and parents.

And that is the wild west. They don’t have any, none of them have any shred of etiquette. You know, like they don’t, they don’t get what you’re supposed to do in order for everyone to have a great time.

They’ve got their agenda and their agenda only. And then what’s worse is a parent. Who’s just like that too, right? Yes.

Yeah. Because you get that too. I’m like, oh no, I’m going to be fine.

I do this all the time. I was going to ask you about, about solo performance because the other shows that the other fringes that you’ve done have not been solo. How do you feel about, about that? I know from, have you done solo performing before? No, I, I, I have not.

I attempted one time to adapt princess of porn into a solo show. That was like a very, very quick one night. Let me try and put this up on his feet.

That didn’t go well. So that’s not a good reference. But I think the, the solowness that I’ve experienced has been the, the kids, children’s parties that I, I go and do.

And then that I’ve been doing for 12 years now. So, you know, I’ve got, as long as I think of it in the context of that, I’m like, oh, piece of cake. I got this.

No problem. And obviously it’ll be different. There’ll be things for me to learn, but you know, I feel like I’m total fish out of water until I remember, oh wait, no, I know how to do this.

Oh wait, no. For two years, way back when, back in the day, I did a sales job where I would go into stores and pitch products. I would have to gather a group of people, bring them to the booth and then sell them something.

And I also remind myself of that. I’m like, this is a piece of cake. I had to get people to buy knives.

I did a solo show for people to buy shit at the end. So yeah, this is, this is easier. I, and I also really appreciate the ease of, as we talked about before the process where I’m not beholden to anyone else’s needs.

I can just be like, oh, this is what I need in order to make this happen. That’s good. I mean, I remember the first time, the first, the very first time I performed the commandment in front of an audience at the Hamilton fringe.

I had planned, it was going to be such a wonderful day. It was like early, it was like first day of the fringe. I was going to see a bunch of shows and then like take about an hour or two before my show, but I was going to see shows first.

And then I woke up that day and I felt, oh God, I’m going to throw up. So I did not see any shows. I was just too afraid.

I was going to vomit, but once I was performing it, I was fine. And then after that, but I think it’s that, that first time that you are alone on stage, it can be a little nerve wracking, but again, you have that foundation of both the sales, selling knives to people and, and also trying to control groups of small children. Yes.

To varying levels of success. I mean, it’s a group of small children. I, I toured around Southern Ontario as well, not just Southern Ontario.

I did a few shows as, as Pokeroo in a show. And that is a, that is a, that is a trip. Children will not be contained.

No. Sometimes, sometimes they are, sometimes they go and I’m like, oh, look at how well-trained you all are. And I don’t have to do anything, but yeah, when they’re, I’ve yeah.

The bane of my existence is going to a party where it’s at a play place because the vibe is already chaos. That’s the whole point. Kids gone wild.

Oh my God. Send them to the jungle gym. Like you just put it, something switches in their brain where they’re like, I am now a jungle animal.

And yeah. Then a parent is like, why don’t you keep their attention? Like, oh, okay. You’re like, how am I supposed to compete with the fact there’s jungle animals right now? Yeah.

So I changed my contracts now and my policies and we’re going to be good going forward. That’s good. That’s good.

Well, I’m really looking forward to, to, to seeing two, two Rob’s one cup and also watching you walk over from your apartment to just sort of like, I’ll send it to the show. Well, it’s back to your apartment. That sounds like a dream.

Oh, I love it. I could do it from my balcony. I can just be like, you guys just go stand down there, stand down there and I’ll do it from over here.

I’ll be loud. Again, your neighbors will love you. Yeah.

Oh my God. Oh yeah. It’s probably not appropriate for everyone.

I mean, I’m sure your neighbors might have something to say. Yes, I did put a content warning in the program, which they don’t give you much opportunity to elaborate on what the content is that you are warning people about. But I feel like, I hope that the title itself will warn away the people who should not see this show.

Sure. Yeah. I, I’ve put one on my posters as well, just to, just to be right out there.

This is the content you’re getting. Please don’t come to me afterwards. Also, I had asked, they were supposed to recite what the content warning was before the show, but sometimes you never know who’s going to show up in your show.

Yes, it’s true. I remember Jillian English once mentioned that she was doing a show and somebody had come in with their seven-year-old and she was about to go on and before she started the show, she went out, she says, I need you to know, I say a lot of things that are potentially not appropriate for your child. And they were like, no, no, no, no, everything’s fine.

Child can take it. And she started the show two minutes later, the mother is like hauling that child out the door. I, I want this to be a show where that would be the reaction.

That’s a good goal. What I want the show to be for, I want there to be, I think adults should be clutching their belongings. You want, you want an audience full of pearl clutchers.

Yeah. Well, no, I want, if that is your style and you happen to wander into the show, I want you to be clutching and clenching and then I want you to run out the door. All right.

You can actually use that as part of your marketing. Three people, three church ladies ran out of the theatre. There was a review of the princess of porn, the musical, when we did it in Hamilton, that it was in the paper and she did not think it was funny.

And so I put over everything. Like there were reviews that were like, if you close your eyes, you think you were sitting in a box on Broadway. It’s so like, I, I was worried.

I was going to wet myself. It’s not funny. Ah, and that’s the best way to sell a show like that.

Somebody thought it was not funny at all. You have to use those. You have to use those reviews as best you can.

Well, Vicki, thank you so much for talking with me today. This has been great. I’m looking forward to seeing your show at Fringe.

Thanks. I’m looking forward to doing it.