Nigel Shawn Williams
Nigel Shawn Williams is a four-time Dora Mavor Moore Award-winner as both actor and director. His theatre credits include The Merchant of Venice for Bard on the Beach this past summer, five seasons at Stratford Festival, four seasons at Shaw Festival, as well as performances in Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary and Vancouver. Nigel is also heavily involved in new play development and mentoring young and emerging artists through the difficult transition from training schools to professional life.
Nigel is the director of Cahoots Theatre and Obsidian Theatre’s world premiere of Amanda Parris’ OTHER SIDE OF THE GAME.
Set before the rise of Black Lives Matter, OTHER SIDE OF THEGAME is a time-spanning work that tells the story of silenced Black women who organize communities, protect loved ones, battle institutions, and live each day by a ride-or-die philosophy. This first-time partnership between Cahoots and Obsidian also marks the professional playwriting debut for Amanda Parris.
Inspired by interviews conducted with individuals in Toronto and Halifax, OTHER SIDE OF THEGAME gives voice to Black women who support their men, their families and communities, even in the face of dire consequences. Set in Toronto, straddling modern day and the 1970s Black civil rights movement, the play is evocative and lyrical in its presentation of a population under siege.
Other Side of the Game
http://www.cahoots.ca/
https://www.obsidiantheatre.com/
Tickets: http://www.nativeearth.ca/otherside/
Stageworthy:
http://www.stageworthypodcast.com
Twitter @stageworthyPod
Facebook: http://facebook.com/stageworthyPod
Transcript
[Phil Rickaby]
Welcome to episode 97 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. We’re just a few weeks away from the 100th episode of Stageworthy, which will be released on October 31st.
Episode 100 is a pretty significant milestone in the life of any podcast, and I’m super proud to have reached it. In the coming weeks, you’ll see some special posts celebrating the 100th episode on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, and you can find Stageworthy on all three platforms at StageworthyPod. If you haven’t already, please consider subscribing to the podcast to get the latest episodes delivered right to your device.
You can find Stageworthy on Apple Podcasts, Google Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you hear, and you want to help me celebrate the 100th episode, please consider leaving a comment or rating on Apple Podcasts. Ratings and comments help new listeners find the show.
My guest this week is Nigel Shawn-Williams. Nigel is an actor and director, the former co-artistic director of The Factory Theatre, and a four-time Dora Award winner. He is currently directing Kahoot’s Theatre and Obsidian Theatre’s Other Side of the Game by Amanda Paris, opening October 14th at Aki Studio in Toronto.
How’s it coming?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
It’s coming along really well now. We’ve, in our third week, we’ve moved into a new space where the design actually fits in. We were at Cahoot’s.
Cahoot’s is a lovely space, but just the stage doesn’t fit there.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s right around the corner from you. Yeah.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
So we were doing two weeks of needing to bust out, and now we’re in a bigger space, and I can actually work on timings. And it’s good for actually really breathe and get into it now. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
So what can you tell me about The Other Side of the Game?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
What can I tell you about it? It’s a fantastically well-crafted play by Amanda Paris, and it investigates this cycle of criminal injustice against young Blacks, but also what toll it has on Black women. This revolving door going in and out of jail, right?
But in that same light, it investigates street and hood culture. And I think that we generally have a very stereotypical view of what that is, and it investigates what ride or die really means, that culture. But that’s devotion and loyalty and love.
It’s not just integrated with drugs and violence and criminality. It’s much more closer than that.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s family.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
But at the same time, the play is fantastic, because it also investigates the 1970s and the very little known civil rights movement that was happening in Toronto. And it talks about activism, and it’s a great mirror of the activism that was happening in Toronto in the 70s, but where we are now. And I think it’s asking questions of, are we learning from history?
Why are we repeating the same thing? But it doesn’t just put a mirror on the Black culture and the Black community. It’s a larger issue for all of us.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s interesting, because my perception of Black culture is a little bit… Excuse me, my brother is Black, so I’ve sort of had a mirror, but I haven’t had, obviously, the same experiences as he has. I’ve never been pulled over for driving while Black or anything like that.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Are you adopted?
[Phil Rickaby]
He’s adopted, right. So our experiences are different, and there’s things I see, and there’s things I don’t see. But it’s sort of interesting, because I think that white Canada doesn’t think of the incarceration of Black men as an American problem.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Absolutely, yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
And we think about the civil rights movement as an American problem.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Or an American movement.
[Phil Rickaby]
I don’t think it was a problem. No, no, no, no, no. The problem was the wrongs.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Sorry, I know. Just fucking…
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s like, it was… We allow ourselves to be smug as white Canadians in a way that allows us to ignore the racism that exists, because it’s not as overt as in America, in Canada.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah, yeah. I think that the… I’m coming to more and more of an understanding that we should actually stop comparing our racial history in Canada and the United States.
They’re linked, absolutely, and there’s veins and there’s tissue that are connected, but the history is completely different. And you’re right. I think that Canada has a very safe and smug and dishonest memory of racism and slavery in this country.
And therefore, this systemic feeling of racism that whites have against black or people of colour, I think it’s larger. I think it becomes more… We have to talk about and investigate colonial patriarchy.
I think that it has everything centuries and centuries of European countries taking over cultures and making it their own and dehumanizing those who lived on that land, regardless of whether we talk about Indigenous people or Africans or even like the Spanish or… There’s the Chinese, like years and years ago. And I think that when we talk of white supremacy, I believe it’s different than white supremacists.
We historically have had this ideal of white supremacy. And I think that that is what we kind of need to work on and investigating and activating the silent liberal majority of whites. And I think we’re starting to see it with this whole NFL and kneeling thing.
There’s that question of where were these other players, white and black, where were they four days before Donald Trump spoke? And it’s interesting to talk about it. It’s interesting to bring up.
But I think that that is steeped in… They might have been there ready, but what activated them? I think we have to talk about what is activism to us personally and individually.
But that’s a bit of a roundabout conversation.
[Phil Rickaby]
Because it’s interesting when you talk about the separating of the discussion from the American experience and the Canadian. It’s so difficult to do that when so much of our culture in Canada is… And infected is the wrong word, but infected by American culture in TV, movies and all these other things.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yes. Totally the right word.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yes, we can barely remove ourselves. When you have people who are in some places in Canada, who are wearing Make America Great Again hats, they can’t separate themselves from the American experience. It’s a strange phenomenon that we’re stuck in this…
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yes, or they don’t want to. But I think that has everything to do with one of the aspects of this play that I think that Amanda Paris is bringing up is that we really have to learn from our history. And I think until…
Canada has to learn from its own history before it can take on another country’s history. And I think that Canadians need to own their own history, look at it, delve into it in and of itself and learn, heal, act upon. And then we can cast aspersions or look at comparisons and things like that.
But it is, it’s a complex issue. It’s not necessarily easier said than done. Because in a lot of ways, just like the civil rights movement, the movement, the civil rights movement in Canada learned from the civil rights movement in the United States of America and took many cues from it, but also learned a lot of what was working, but what wasn’t working.
But then the conversation becomes generational. An activist who lived through the civil rights movement in the United States in the 60s comes to Canada in the 70s and 80s and is now having a conversation with a 21-year-old activist who thinks that has not learned anything and thinks that violence and disruption is the way to go. And so it’s a very delicate cycle.
[Phil Rickaby]
Are there things that you’ve learned from this play that you didn’t know?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Oh, there’s a lot. Oh, that’s why I love theatre. That’s why I love directing.
I’m very much aware of how much I don’t know. And I learned a lot about Toronto’s civil rights movement. And I’m learning a great deal about the intricacies of the Black Lives Matter movement.
And I think that I am very much as guilty as about hearing a certain amount of information from the news and then not seeking more information about certain subjects. And yeah, absolutely. I thank Amanda very much for opening up my appetite to learn more about Toronto’s history and the Black community in Toronto and how we’ve grown.
But also, small amounts of history, like talking about Buddy Evans and Albert Johnson, which is not so far away. But these systemic and constant Black men that are targeted and killed. And we don’t necessarily always put that front and center.
And it’s easier for the news to talk about the mental state of that Black man rather than why was it necessary to put three bullets in him? It’s a cheery topic.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yes. But the thing is that these are conversations that we as Canadians need to have.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
They’re necessary conversations.
[Phil Rickaby]
They are absolutely necessary conversations. And it’s been really easy. And I remember I was in a few years ago, I was in New York.
And just as the Black Lives Matter movement was really starting just after the Eric Garvey killing. And there was a massive protest when we were there. And it was moving through the streets of New York.
And my girlfriend at the time, we found ourselves in the middle of it. And we caught ourselves with white smugness, white Canadian smugness. Like, isn’t it great that we live in a country where this stuff doesn’t happen?
And where not the protest, but that Black men are not being killed in this way. Because of course, it’s not in the news. It’s not something that we hear about all the time.
And we walked away feeling like we allowed ourselves to feel really smug. And it was only a little while later that we started to think about the truth of it. I started having conversations with my brother about his experience and things like that.
And I realized that it’s not. But we allow ourselves as white Canadians to just sort of feel like, oh, that doesn’t happen here. Because it doesn’t happen to us.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
But it does. And that does. And it’s the amount that it happens is probably not as told as much in the US.
I don’t think that maybe the overt friction is not there. But also, I think that the history in the way that I think the United States of America is steeped in a certain attitude towards race. I just want to make sure that all police officers are not the same.
One has to appreciate the men and women who count to five making it like a reaction. But there are shootings often and brutality as that’s one that happened in the news in Durham. And then there’s like, well, why wasn’t the SIU called?
But I think that if we start opening the newspaper and turning to page six or seven, we’ll actually find that news story. And they’re there, but they’re not front and center because it’s not important. And I think that the barometer pressure of people of color in the world is getting to a point where the conversation is being forced to change.
And I think that that’s exactly where the temperature was with the Black Lives Matter protest at the Pride Parade last year. And it’s not waiting for white privilege or whites to sit down and say, we’re ready to talk.
[Phil Rickaby]
Right?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
The conversation has to change, but there’s a lot of people who are getting tired of having the same freaking conversation.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s similar to the conversation. I’ve been to a bunch of diversity panels where we have the same conversation. It’s diversity panel.
We talk about how do we get more people of color into the theatre? How do we have more and more stages? And we have the same conversation over and over.
It’s the same sort of thing.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Absolutely.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s frustrating. I’m not even the one who should be really tired of having that conversation because people of color should be like, why are we? And they are.
Why are we waiting for this? Because often those things are put on by predominantly white theatres and things like that.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. I think really, how do you have more artists of color in your company? How do you have a more administrative staff representing?
Well, the answer is just- You hire them. Can I swear? Yeah, fuck yes.
The answer is fucking do it. The answer is just stop talking about it and look at the world in color. And I think that if certain organizations were really passionate about inclusiveness, then they should look at the leadership in their company.
And if it’s coming from an artistic point of view, then just fucking do it. Then just look at things differently. But there is still, I think people are very nervous about, oh, what if I do it wrong?
Well, do it wrong, make a mistake. But have a conversation one-on-one maybe with someone that you respect. Like talk to Nina Liacchino about something specific, not in a broad way.
Because Nina’s getting tired of the conversation. Like look what Factory Theatre is, they’re just doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. They’re just doing it.
[Phil Rickaby]
There’s no conversation.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
No, there’s no fucking conversation. Because she’s just doing it. But it’s just that she sees the world the way that the world should be.
And also it’s acting in a way and having values and principles artistically in a way that you see color, that you don’t deny it. Because the one thing that burns me is when someone says color blind casting. And that only comes from the white side of the table.
Artists of color want to be seen. And I don’t want to be cast in a restoration play. And I’m not going to act white.
I’m not going to pretend that I’m white. But at the same time, there’s no reason why we can’t be in like, I’m just out of my ass, like Death of a Salesman. And you and I could be brothers.
You can expand the story. But at the same time, just have to be fucking smart about it. But there’s such a fear, I think, of making mistakes.
And there’s nothing going to, no one’s going to learn. No one’s going to learn from anything else. You just try it, make a mistake, do something.
And then we’ll let you know.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. But you know, I mean, and then at least you will have tried.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But doing nothing is cowardice. And having the same conversation is boring.
[Phil Rickaby]
The same conversation lets a lot of white people feel better, at least we’re having the conversation. But last time I saw Nina Lee at Keynote, one of those things, she was done. She’s tired of this conversation.
And so she should be. Because she has a conversation and nothing happens.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Artists of color, and I have so much respect for Nina and her patience for not punching people in their throats years and years ago. But sure, it is our responsibility to continue to educate. And it’s our responsibility to take a breath and say, absolutely, this is what you should do.
But the thing is, after a while, it gets really, really fucking tiring of saying the same thing over and over again to the same people over and over again. And so I’m glad that the conversation needs to change. Because the diversity committees are, I don’t understand what, there’s nothing active about the word, you know, diversity.
Like, you can be inclusive, just do something that is active. You know, like a diversity committee is, you know, I used to say this to Nina when we were hanging out a lot together working at the factory, is that diversity has become a word like innovation. I mean, it doesn’t mean anything anymore.
I don’t know how you act upon that. Everyone is trying to be innovative. Everyone is trying to be diverse.
So I don’t know what, like, that conversation has to change. I think the title on that conference card of that program, that they’ll talk for two and a half hours, has to change. You know?
[Phil Rickaby]
Well, it’s interesting because these panels, they end and then everybody goes away feeling good. We had the conversation, but…
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Not everyone feels good about going away from it.
[Phil Rickaby]
Sorry. Yes. To be correct, thank you.
But like, you know, a bunch of people walk away feeling good. A lot of people, some people walk away feeling frustrated, but there’s no action that comes out of it. If you’re going to have the conversation, if you’re going to have the real conversation, like when you go into a meeting at work, you leave with action items.
Yes, absolutely. And we leave without action items. So everything stays at the status quo.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. Yeah. Unless there’s actionables and then there’s like follow-up.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
You know, then when should we follow up to make sure that this theatre company is doing this? What is it that you want to do to change things? And so, all right, let’s all witness this action and let’s have you put that into place in…
How does nine months sound? Yep. All right.
So we’ll get together in 11 months and see how you’re doing.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
All right. And then, and then, and then therefore, what are, what is the actions if you, if you fail or if you’ve, if you’ve, if, if you haven’t come through.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. Public Now Magazine shaming, stage-worthy shaming.
[Phil Rickaby]
Well, fuck yes. You know, you know, it’s, it, we should be shaming when, when that sort of stuff happens, you know, just to, to change gears a little bit, because I want to, this is, this is, this is a great conversation, but there’s other things that I want to ask you about. And a lot of that, because one of the things I like to examine on the podcast is the reasons why people go into this world of theatre.
Like why, what is it that draws you into theatre? Do you remember what it was that made you first want to do it?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
That made me like, like to pursue it professionally as in like, as in when did, when did I decide I wanted to go to university for it?
[Phil Rickaby]
Let’s go before that. Let’s go before that. What was your first exposure to theatre as like, what made you want to perform?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Um, and I’m just going back now because I’m, you know, like I’m 88 years old. So, you know, in a lot of ways, in a lot of ways, I’m just like, you know, any other, any other artists that I had, I had, there was a teacher in high school that I went to, I went to Dunbarton High School in Pickering. And, uh, in grade 10, um, there was, uh, they, they, they offered theatre classes and, and, but also at that time, um, they’re, they had theatre sports at lunch and yeah, yeah.
I went to, I went to high school with, um, with, uh, with this guy, Phil Nickel and I’m not sure Phil Nickel was, I’m not sure if you remember this, that comedy troupe called Corky and the Juice Pigs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where Sean Cullen came from.
Like Phil, like Phil and, and, um, and Sean, uh, uh, and Greg Neal and Joe Costa, they all went to the University of Windsor. Anyway, I’m going, I’m going ahead, but, but Phil Nickel was in my high school and he, he was doing theatre sports, uh, with, um, uh, with, uh, afraid of visiting the Chris Coombs and this Barry Davis was his name, but, but Frank Luke, Frank Luke was the, was the, was the theatre teacher and he made space for all this. He made space for theatre sports and he made space for, uh, for this, uh, for, uh, theatre arts courses that you could take from grade 10 all the way, uh, through grade 13 back then when there’s a grade 13.
And, um, and I think it was just the, that type of enthusiasm that, that Frank Luke had, but also he did, he, he really, really gave a shit about theatre and he, he loved theatre, but I, he think he really loved how it activated, uh, uh, young, uh, young people, um, and it got them out of their shells. And I, I don’t know, I really can’t remember why it, like, I think it was because I was just sort of, I liked English. I liked, uh, I, you know, I liked, uh, uh, stories and I just kind of got, um, I just kind of fell into it.
And then I think as theatre school went on, I realized that there was a, there was, there’s a community there. There’s a community of like-minded people who, who liked silliness and danger and putting yourself on the line, but also telling stories and, um, having the interaction of a communication between, uh, and, and, and a performer and an audience and that immediacy that, that never happens again. Um, that it’s, that it’s, it’s, it’s in a lot of ways, the theatre, theatre is a, is one of the most fleeting arts, um, you know, like all performing arts, like performing arts is a fleeting art.
Like it’s, it’s like that, that moment in time is, is, is happens and it’s done never again where you get, where you get that. And, and that’s something really exciting. And I think that is, as I got older, probably I could, I could maybe articulate it, but I think that when I was younger, it was, it was just gut instinct about what I’d like to do and what I didn’t want to do.
I don’t think I, I wanted to be an ophthalmologist anymore. And, um, I think I, yeah, I think I was, I was, I’ve, I’ve always just been fascinated with the eye, um, with the biology, but also just, I think it’s just a fascinating thing that we can see. Um, and I’m fascinated by, uh, by, uh, but, but, but the individuals who cannot see and what and this, the, the, the biological technology of the eye anyway, sorry.
But, um, uh, yeah, and then I, and just like many people, I had a huge battle with my parents when I wanted to go to university and, um, and I ended up, uh, uh, just, you know, winning and I went to University of Windsor and, and, and I just think that it, I, I, it was one of those things that I don’t know whether or not I was thinking, okay, so if I don’t suck at this, I don’t suck at this or people who have not told me outright that I don’t completely suck at this.
So I, but I just kind of, I fell in love with, uh, I fell in love with the, I think the community of artists and then I fell in love with what the art is. Right. If that makes any sense.
[Phil Rickaby]
It makes perfect sense. Were you, were you born in Pickering?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
No, no, I’m, I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. Okay. I’m Jamaican.
[Phil Rickaby]
When did you find yourself in Pickering?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Oh, we moved to Durham, I think. Oh, we moved like quite a bit. I can, I was an East Ender, like Scarborough, West Hill, and then like Ajax, Pickering.
And it’s always been, always been like the East.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. I was Ajax for, uh, like 10 years.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Oh really? Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
Cause you know, it’s funny cause you know, I went to Ajax high school.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Oh really?
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Of course. I went to Safer to Deaths.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Oh shit. Yes. You were like right next door.
I know. Yeah. No, like my, yeah, but, but that’s what my sister was in.
My sister was in Ajax high. Right. And then my, and my brother and I were still in, in grade school, but I think we only lasted in, in that Catholic school for like two years.
But even when we were moving, once I got to high school, I think I just said to my parents, like, I’m not changing schools anymore.
[Phil Rickaby]
No, cause changing schools is rough. And in high school, you really kind of need, like, you need to stay there.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. Yeah. But when we were, when I went to Dumbarton, we were still moving from Pickering to Ajax.
[Phil Rickaby]
Okay.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
But I just stayed at, I just stayed at, at that high school.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Well, the funny thing is that, you know, if you’re an Ajax high school person, um, like I remember Dumbarton being like the rival school, you know, it was just like, of rough hoodlums and theatre artists. What’s funny, I don’t even remember, you know, I don’t even remember there was no reason for it.
It was, they were the high school. We played them in football. I didn’t even really give a shit about football, but everybody was like, everybody had a thing.
So I immediately, oh, the rival school.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. I played football. Like, yeah, I did.
I didn’t play high school. I played for the, I’ve played for the Pickering Bay Dolphins. I like in that league, but for some reason in high school, I, I, well, for many, I had no interest in freaking high school football.
No. I played volleyball. Anyway.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. And they digress. Well, you know, you’re getting a bunch of Ajax kids together and what are we going to talk about?
Um, when did you figure out that this is what you were going to do? Like when you were going to go to university for it and this was your calling, when did it become something that you did that you enjoyed in high school, that it was going to be the thing that you studied and made your life?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
You know, I, I think pretty much right away in grade 10, I think. Yeah. I think that as soon as, as soon as I, I got, I got in and I, and I started, I started watching theatre sports and I started, uh, uh, participating in it and, uh, like I guess got the bug and then, and then I was just taking the courses.
And, but I think right from grade 10, it was just something that was extraordinary. And it was something that I’d never done or seen before. And it’s also, it was a certain amount of, uh, of blood pressure that, that I’d never felt before that was, that felt healthy.
And, um, but I, but it was just, I think my mind was working in a, in a different way to tell a story, but also to how, you know, to, you know, look at stories. But then when we were, we were given so much free range, like we were writing, uh, you know, bad plays and, and, uh, performing them and, and, and, and, you know, we were young, you know, you’re, you’re, you know, you’re 15 years old and, and with a teacher that is giving you what is allowing your imagination to be unleashed, you know? And I think that, uh, I think that that allowability, um, and, and freedom of the spirit was something that I just didn’t want to let go.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. And I’m thinking that’s the, that’s the age when you should be writing bad plays.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Oh my God. Like I can write just like do whatever you learn so much. Absolutely.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Yeah. Um, did you always want to be a director?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
No, no, I don’t. No, I don’t think so. Like I don’t, I think that I just wanted to, I think I just wanted to be an actor and learn how to be an actor.
And then it turned into how can I become a, an actor that works and then can, how can I be an actor that, that, uh, uh, that this is my only job. And then it turned into realizing that I was, uh, a self-employed, you know, artist and then it was a business, but no, I, I, I becoming a, becoming a director, that taste didn’t happen. It’s, it, you know, everything, everything is in degrees, right?
And it sort of, uh, it sort of, you know, grows and it blossoms. And, and I, I, I’ve always had, I love actors and I’ve always loved working with a really good actor and the scene partner and what the, what hurt me the most is when I would hear stories from actors about, about bad experiences with directors. Um, uh, whether or not it’s a, you know, uh, verbal abuse or just not listening to like, you know, there’s, there was like a generation of that shit, but the, but being in the, being in rehearsal halls and as I got a bit more experience and as I got older, I started to realize that, that, that an actor could, would be having a conversation with a director, but the director actually wasn’t listening to the actor. It’s, it’s, and it’s not, and it’s not woeful.
Um, uh, I don’t want to hear you. It’s actually just not, uh, understanding that like what the, what the simple need was from that, from that actor. And sometimes the, the, an actor needs to ask a question, but doesn’t necessarily, uh, uh, want an answer.
It just needs to be heard out loud, an idea or a question. Um, and, uh, and I think that just by witnessing that and, and, um, and when, and they got to the point of where I, I thought that I, when I, when I was doing, if I’d be doing a show, if I was doing a show and I would, I would look at the play and I’d see that you had a, had a, had a speech about a page and a half prior, I’ll just start finding myself in a position that gives you a better position because I know what’s coming.
Like I just started, I think I’ve, I was always seeing in things in a, in a macro vision and I never read a play. I never really, I never read a play with my, my character. I’ve always, I kind of just see the whole, um, like I see the whole story on, on stage and, and then it’s like, I’m, I’m just a small part of it.
And then I think it just kind of grew of understanding and just listening to, uh, to directors talk about sound cues and then you learn about lighting and all this stuff. And, and after a while I realized that I wasn’t getting, I wasn’t scared anymore as an actor, like opening night as an actor. I, I, it doesn’t, I’m not, it doesn’t, I’m not nervous.
[Phil Rickaby]
Um, even with like a brand new, brand new play as an actor.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. No, as an actor, I just, I just don’t get, I just don’t get nervous. It’s like, I love the work, but, but the, the, it’s the, it’s the rehearsal hall that I love.
And, um, and I, I’m just finding it, you know, unless I’m with the right group of people that want to work for until we close, uh, you know, performing is just becoming a more challenging, you know, so you’re moving, you’re feeling, you’re moving more towards the directing as, as, uh, as the Oh, I pretty much just, I just direct. I try to, I try to, I try to act at least once a year or season to, in order for me to be the director that I want to be for actors. I don’t want to, I can’t lose, I can’t lose that perspective, uh, of being an actor, or I don’t think that I’d be the type of director that will always understand actors, understand what they’re going through, but also the creative process changes all the time.
And, and if, if one is not current with the generational, uh, the change in the creative process, then the, as a director, I don’t think that you can be, you can constantly grow, but that’s just my, that’s just me. That’s not a, that’s not a freaking thesis of how you should be a good director.
[Phil Rickaby]
I think, you know, I think that it’s, it’s, you know, it’s a completely, uh, it makes sense that you would want to act to be a better director.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. And that’s just me. Like, there’s like, you know, I’ve got a great, like, you know, like Alan Dilworth, I think it’s like, you know, like I bow down to the, to Mr. Dilworth and, you know, he doesn’t have to be an actor to, to, um, to become a better director. He’s just, he just, he just grows and grows and grows. Like, I’m just talking about my recipe. It’s not, uh, it’s not like a, uh, a blanket, uh, for everybody.
[Phil Rickaby]
Do you remember the first show that you directed?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Uh, the first show I directed, uh, I believe. Professionally. Okay.
No, I, I did, I did, um, oh my God, you’re asking me this. I think, um, other than something stupid in high school, I think, uh, Sue Gary wrote this play called Simple Celibate Sober and I directed it for the fringe, uh, uh, French festival. And, um, and then right after that, I was asked to do my first professional play.
Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
My first professional play was directing Colin Wagner’s The Monument for Obsidian that was nominated for like seven Dora’s or something like that. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
What was your path to, uh, your time at, at, uh, a factory? Because you were co-artistic director with Nina at one time. Is that?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nina and I was, we were the co-artistic directors for four years together. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
How did that, how did that come about that, that, that the, that you were chosen as co-artistic directors?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Uh, well, we, we, we, we, we applied for the, for the, for the leadership, for the artistic directorship as a team.
[Phil Rickaby]
Oh, really? Okay. Yeah.
Okay.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. You know, but we were, you know, we, we were both, we both had great relationship with, with the, with the factory theatre and, and Ken Gass was our, our mentor for years and years. Right.
And, uh, and the wellbeing of, and the health of that organization was always important for us, but no, we, we, we, we applied together and, and, uh, I remember her asking me, are you going to do it? It’s like, no, I’m going to do it if you do it. So we just thought we’d just do it together.
We work, we work, uh, we work really well as a team and, and yeah, no, I love, I love that woman. She’s a, she’s smarter than you and I put together.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Uh, I’ve had the pleasure of, of interviewing her. It’s really good conversation. So you can really sort of see what she’s doing.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. Yeah. And we, and we just, and our, our, our, I think our dynamic was really great with each other, you know, cause she, you know, she’s like a silent thinker and I’m like, It was interesting cause you guys took over the factory at sort of a tumultuous time.
[Phil Rickaby]
There was the, uh, Ken Gass, uh, leaving or being pushed out and factory was taking a lot of flack from the community. And then you guys came in and I don’t know if any of that flack came on you or. A lot of shit came on us, but we took it.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
You know, they, a lot of ways better us than somebody else.
[Phil Rickaby]
Did you, did you expect that the flack would continue for as long as it did?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Or no, no, no. I think that if anything else, that’s what we were kind of surprised that, that, that, um, that it lasted for as long as it did. But you know, it was, it was a, it was a, you know, there’s people that were hurt and it was emotional and, and I don’t think that you can have any real expectations on anyone’s, uh, emotions healing and things like that.
But, but we, um, you know, we were, you know, we loved it and we loved Ken and the, the, the theatre now is, is, uh, is incredibly healthy. It has a fantastic identity and a new brand. And, and I think, I believe people still love, you know, going there and, and, um, and Nina, Nina is just, you know, I think that Nina should just be running all arts organizations in this country.
I would actually like, you know, if she could clone herself, it might be really good for the, if you gave her, if you gave her more files on that dash, she would, she would be able to do it as long as you give her enough chocolate and coffees.
[Phil Rickaby]
So now you’ve given everybody the secret. But like, I love the work that she’s doing there. Um, uh, because, you know, like you were saying, she’s just fucking doing it, like just putting people of color on that stage and not really, I mean, not really making a big deal out of it.
It just is, it shouldn’t be a big deal, but I don’t know.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
I think it’s more than optics. I think it’s sure it might be easier for, for Nina to do because she, you know, because she’s a, you know, uh, you know, she’s a woman of color or, you know, she’s, she’s from the Philippines. And, and so she’s, she’s, she’s experiencing the world as a young woman, but as a, as a, as a non white artist in this country, that is, that has been, that has been, uh, you know, white, uh, white dominated.
And so we, you know, we see the world differently than, than, uh, than whites. And so it’s, it’s not, it’s not an effort for us to, um, uh, to instigate that practice because that practice is just who we are and it’s who Nina is. And, and, uh, and it’s when it’s, it’s when you, it’s when you, you muscle it is when it becomes tokenism.
It’s when you muscle is when you don’t understand it.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
And when you muscle it is when you actually start, uh, becoming blind of people’s cultures and ethnicities.
[Phil Rickaby]
Right. Yeah, absolutely. Um, at what point did you get involved in other side of the game?
Were you, were you there in the early days or did you just come in for the production?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Uh, maybe like around like the 50 yard line, um, uh, Amanda, Amanda Harrison and, and I’d been working on the play that gets, that’s been, that went through it’s, you know, it’s own, um, uh, its own growth. And then, uh, and then Cahoots, uh, Cahoots started working with, with, with, with Amanda, Marjorie Chan became the dramaturg. And I think they did a couple of, a couple of, um, of workshops of it.
I’m not that I’m actually the wrong person to ask of the, of the early growth, but Marjorie, Marjorie Chan, the artistic director of Cahoots, uh, for those listening that don’t know Marjorie Chan, um, uh, asked me, I think it was maybe the last year. What are, where are we right now in October?
[Phil Rickaby]
No.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
So it was like what a year and a half ago that she asked me to, if I wanted to come on to, uh, to direct a workshop of, of, of the play and, um, and, uh, directing a workshop of the play, uh, with the understanding of, of if we were both, um, mutually interested of, of being, uh, the director for the production. And so the, so I came on for a workshop of it last year, September. So yeah, September of, of 2016.
And, um, yeah, and then started working with Amanda and then I just kind of got hooked on the play and what she was, uh, tackling and, and her, and the craft. And also I hadn’t had an opportunity to work with, uh, Cahoots before. So there was like a lot of, uh, a lot of great ships that were coming together at the same time.
So, so I guess the short answer is a year and a half ago.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, this question might seem like it’s self-evident, but I’m going to ask it anyway. What is it that you saw in the play that you felt like you needed to tackle?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
I needed to tackle, I wanted to tackle the, the, the issues of race and, um, and the investigation of, uh, of racial, of, of, of, well, of, of, of criminal injustice, the criminal, the injustice of the criminal system. And, and also because I right away, I realized that I, I didn’t know, uh, very much about the civil rights movement or the activism, um, the activism that was happening in the seventies in Toronto. And a lot of my, uh, attraction to the play and curiosity was kind of sparked about what I did not know.
And so how much, um, how much I didn’t know about it, it was kind of scary. And I kind of just tried, I kind of just take things down that scare the shit out of me. Um, so because, because, you know, my, my wife always says that, that, that I, I will only do things that I don’t understand or I don’t know how to do.
Um, um, I, uh, that’s, I get, I get attracted to the place that I don’t know what the fuck am I going to do with this? Um, uh, not to devalue, but, but to me and, um, and then, and so it, it scares the crap out of me. And so I get closer to the first day of rehearsal and I get more and more stressed because I feel like I’ve done absolutely like, you know, no research, although there’s like, you know, 82 pages of it.
And like, I don’t know what I’m doing. And then I have to be reminded that that’s how I feel before every first day of school. But if it’s, if it’s scared, if it scares me, then I’m, I’m generally attracted to it.
[Phil Rickaby]
Now, when, when you’re working like that, when you don’t know what you’re going to do with it, are you, are you just figuring it out as you go? Do you learn with the actors or do you find that you knew all along?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Like, well, I, I, I, I kind of knew all along, but it doesn’t come into play place until you have your collaborators with you, you know? And that’s why I mean, like, I love actors in which I can, I can have an idea, but it’s not until, or like, even like a, like a way of moving through the play, but it’s not going to, it’s not going to blossom. It’s not going to make sense until you have your, your collaborators, which is your actors and your designers.
I, I, I love, I love being a director because you can get a group of really talented people together and let them do what they do. And, and if, if, if I’m, if I’m shepherding these, these great minds, then if I’m shepherding it well, then it’s something incredible is going to happen. In a lot of ways, it’s just, it’s just, it’s just articulating some of my ideas, but letting them go.
Like, I love being surprised. Like, I, like having a conversation with, with, with a set designer, Joanna used the set designer for, for this, for other side of the game. And I’m, you know, I, I’m always just surprised about what she comes back with, you know, because your initial conversations, like, oh, I’m thinking about this, and this is what the play would mean to me.
And you just have sort of have these design jams, these gabs. And then, and then, then I just, I want to be surprised with, with, with a couple weeks later when she comes back, I’m thinking about this. It’s like, there’s no way I would have fucking thought about that.
[Phil Rickaby]
Right.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
That’s awesome. And so, and so now I will fit my, some ideas inside that environment. And then so it blossomed from there.
And then, and then, you know, Caitlin Hickey is the lighting designer and, and, and what she brings to it is something that, that is beyond my imagination. Vern Good, who is the sound designer, who I collaborate with, with a lot. She, she brings, it’s just, and Rachel Forbes is the costume designer.
So I want, I want the designers to, to, to come with their creativity. And, and like, I’m not the, I’m not, I’m not the fucking boss of it. I’m the boss of their creativity.
I’m just, I just try to, I just try to show the, the, I try to articulate and show the road in which I’d like to go down, but how they go down that road and in what, what, what vehicles we go down that road is, that becomes collaborative. That’s not probably the best metaphor, but that’s all I had right now.
[Phil Rickaby]
No, it’s good. It’s good.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
Are you, are you on the social media? Are you on Facebook, Twitter?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
I refuse to be on Facebook. I will never be on Facebook. You’ll never find me on Facebook.
No, I’m on, I’m on Twitter.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
I’m on Twitter. I started, I was on, I started a Twitter account because when I was co-artistic director at factory, but I’m you, is it defunct or do you, do you tweet still or? No, it’s not defunct.
It’s still, it’s still there. I’m, you know, with, with Twitter, I think the thing is that I, I, what I’ve learned about Twitter is that I don’t think that I’ve, I don’t think I’ve found my voice on Twitter. So, and, and I’m not a, I’m not a, Ooh, like, look at the, ain’t this cat cute kind of guy.
But I, I, I’m, I’m kind of, I’m kind of like, sometimes I’m on it. Sometimes I’m not like it. Twitter kind of bugs the shit out of me because I can spend my whole day scrolling and I don’t like spending my whole day scrolling.
I don’t like looking into my phone, but I, I do enjoy some things of what other people are saying. Um, uh, but I, I’m not, I know I, this is going to kill me, but I’m, I’m not on social media very much. And I’ve got a, uh, I, I kind of resist social media.
[Phil Rickaby]
It can be a time suck. Yeah, it is. And you’re doing other things and you don’t need the time suck.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Yeah. I, you know, seriously, I, I, I’d rather spend the time with my, with my daughters and or mow the fucking lawn than, than, than be looking at Twitter. But also Facebook is something I’ll, I’ll, I, I was never interested in because when I left high school, I left high school for a reason.
I didn’t want to be found. I don’t, you know, like if, if there’s a party and I didn’t know about it because it was Facebook, well, then I’ve been to that party. Like, then I missed it.
Like if someone wanted to invite me to a party, they’d invite me. But if there’s, there’s, I don’t, I don’t really know what on Facebook I’ve missed or I’m missing.
[Phil Rickaby]
You probably haven’t missed much. I mean, I always wish that cause you know, eventually everybody’s the high school people that even the people you don’t want to know anymore, they always find you. And I always wish there was like a, are you fucking kidding me button when you get like a friend request from somebody that you’re like, are you kidding?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
And there is, it’s actually, it’s actually not going on Facebook. You know, like there’s lots of, there, you know, there are people from high school that I, it would be great to, you know, to, to see, but there’s also you know, I’m, I’m, I’m an, I’m an escapist. I like to, I like to play different sounds.
Like I like to move forward. So yeah. And there’s also like, I don’t want to be, but also my, you know, I think that, I think that my, my life, uh, in my career, my business has become like, I’m, I’m, uh, it’s very public, you know, as being, being an actor, being, being, um, an artist, you, uh, there, you, I’m at a disadvantage in which, in which at any given night between 200 or a thousand people can be seeing what you perform and I don’t know you. And, um, and then, you know, you kind of bumped into the lake and I think it’s great. It’s like, Oh my God, I saw you that fantastic.
But after, after a while, like, I think that what it is like, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m aggressive about my privacy. I’m quite violent about, about that. But you know, like, um, you know what I mean by that?
And then, and then when I, when I got married and then when I have children, I’m, I’m even, I’m, I’m just even more, I’m very, I’m very protective of, uh, of, of my space that does not get shared with my, with the art that I make or the art that I’m involved in. So I think that’s why I, I, I like to stay quiet and, and on social media. There’s, and also I think that my, my, my, my art is my activism.
And so if I have something to say, then just, if you look at the, the, the place that I do, then you’ll know what I feel about that fucking politics.
[Phil Rickaby]
Cool. Can I ask you what your Twitter handle is?
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
Oh, it’s, uh, it’s, it’s NS, it’s NSW Nigel.
[Phil Rickaby]
Okay, cool.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
No, no, no.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
It’s yeah. It’s Nigel NSW or NSW Nigel. I will find it.
[Phil Rickaby]
You’ll find it.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
I think it’s, yeah, but it’s, it’s, it’s Nigel Sean Williams, not Nigel, Nigel Williams. There was a lot of Nigel Williams. Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
All right. Well, thank you so much. There’s been a great conversation.
I really appreciate you doing this.
[Nigel Shawn Williams]
I really, I really enjoyed the conversation too. And thanks for inviting me on it. Thank you.
It’s nice meeting you.
