Ellie Moon & Brendan Healy: Asking For It

A documentary play that looks at gender roles and sexual consent in the wake of the Ghomeshi scandal, Asking For It considers the various ways in which sexual consent is understood personally, culturally, and legally. Moon speaks with people of all ages and backgrounds about their assumptions and experiences around consent to sexual relations, and with crown prosecutors and legal experts about the current state of sexual assault law in Canada. The conversations are candid, funny, often uncomfortable, and describe experiences of shame, power, ambiguity, and misunderstanding in communication about sex.

Ellie Moon:
@elliemooner

Brendan Healy:
http://misterbrendanhealy.com/

Website: http://crowstheatre.com/whats-on/view-all/asking-for-it
Twitter: @askingtheplay
Instagram: askingforitplay

Stageworthy:
http://www.stageworthypodcast.com
Twitter @stageworthyPod
Facebook: http://facebook.com/stageworthyPod

Transcript

Welcome to episode 95 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about Canadian theatre makers, featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.

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My guests are Ellie Moon and Brendan Healy. They joined me to talk about Ellie’s play, Asking For It, presented with Crow’s Theatre, Nightwood Theatre, and Necessary Angel Theatre Company at the Streetcar Crow’s Nest starting October 5th, 2017. Did you sit down in people’s living rooms with a microphone? I mean, all over.

It was kind of like, um, most of the time it would be like we were already hanging out and then I would bring up the play and then I would say, how do you feel if I record this conversation? And people would say yes or no. But usually yes. And that’s how the interviews would come about.

Can I ask you guys to move your chairs a little bit closer together? Not closer to mine, but if we can like get you back on. I’m sorry, I smell so much, Brendan. Oh, it’s okay.

So most people said yes? Yeah. Okay, let’s, I mean, let’s go to the beginning, Asking For It. Can you can you tell me a little bit, what is what is this play? Sure.

It’s a play that I began working on when I was 21 and the Gomeshi firing first happened. And I was actually living in England at the time. But this new story just brought about a lot of questions for me about my own relationship with desire and my own sort of sense of myself as a permission structure with which to have some really candid conversations with female friends and male friends, but initially female friends.

And I would, so we were in England, no one knew who Gian Gomeshi was or what the CDC was, but I would give them the context. And I would say like, you know, this, this new story happened to really like famously progressive sort of PC guy is being brought up on sexual assault charges. And the nature of the charges are acts of violence during sex that weren’t consented to.

And I would kind of gauge people’s reaction based on that. And people had very different reactions. Like I came of age at the time of like internet porn.

And so lots of people that’s violence was a part of their sex life. And they didn’t think that, like, I didn’t know that this stuff qualified as sexual assault. I didn’t know non consented to violence during sex.

I just never really thought about it. And it made me look back on experiences that I’d had. It made me really want to talk about this.

And I did. And I got a really, really like very stark range of responses. And I was interested in sort of interrogating that and the silence around it.

And yeah. And when did that become a play? When I finished school in 2015, I saw the watershed. It was one of the first shows that I saw back in Canada.

And that’s a documentary play that Crows did by Annabel Sutar. And I thought this is the right form. It just sort of told the macro story and but through a very kind of personal lens.

And I thought this would be the right way to look at it. And so how long did it have? How many hours of conversations did you have? Oh, I have no idea. Whittling it down.

Do you know like how many people you talked to even? Over 100, like maybe 150. Lots of people. How long were those conversations? You know, there’s some of them one that made it into the play is exactly the like, length of the length of the page.

So like, 60 seconds. And then there’s ones that were like, you know, we talked for hours. And I just like, you know, listened to it through afterwards and picked out parts.

And yeah. And I should say it’s constructed. It’s not like it’s not pure verbatim.

Yeah, it’s edited and stuff for meaning. How did you approach these people? Like, how did you find them? And how did you get them to talk to you about these things? Yeah, I mean, like, it’s interesting, like the, the sort of asking for consent to talk about consent. I did, I did mostly, I started with my inner circle.

And then I like, got farther and farther out. But when I was pretty much all the conversations, other than the ones with academics, I didn’t ask their consent ahead of us hanging out, we were already hanging out and got on these topics. And then I asked if they could be recorded.

Did you ask? Did you steer towards those topics? You’re just hanging out with the right academics? And we’re able to? No, sorry, the academic interviews, which there are in the play are people that I emailed and said, you’re an expert on this, I’d like to speak to you. But I’m saying apart from that, like the ones with like, people that I know on a personal level, did mostly kind of arise out of we were already having an interesting conversation, and then I asked to record it. Yeah.

When did you get involved in the production? I guess about a, maybe a year ago, a little like a little under a year ago. So Chris Abraham, who runs Crow’s Theatre, who’s one of the sort of the co producers behind this production, contacted me saying, Look, I have this this script, by super interesting scripts, or like super interesting young artists. And I thought maybe it might be something that you’d be interested in being involved with.

So that’s sort of how it came to me. And what is it that draws you to this particular subject? I mean, I like the project of the project, like, like the intent behind the project, which I think is to have, or to at least to like, create the conditions for a very, like complex and thorough investigation of consent to happen like that, to me, I think is a really, like a really good project to have. And so it’s very easy for me to get behind that.

I think, you know, my work tends to often be about sex and about kind of difficult, you know, sort of the difficulties that come with sex in the body. And so there’s a kind of thematic thing. But, you know, to be honest, there were huge, like, I had a lot of reservations around directing the play.

You know, I’m a guy, I’m also gay. So kind of a play about heterosexual female male consent questions are kind of outside the realm of my, really of my experience. And so, you know, I had some questions around whether it was appropriate for me to be directing this play.

And certainly Ellie, you know, Ellie sort of really encouraged me that I think sort of maybe my outsider-ness from the dynamic, she saw as a strength. So, yeah. Because initially, I mean, that’s one of the things that I wondered about when I saw, okay, so we’re at this play, it’s about consent, and it’s being directed by a man.

So my first thing was like, huh, that’s interesting. I mean, the right man, like not just any dude, for sure. You wouldn’t want to put like any dude in there.

No, no. In fact, most dudes. No, of course, I would agree with that.

Most dudes probably don’t have, shouldn’t be like directing this play. But what was it, what did you see in Brendan, that you wanted to, you thought that he was the right guy? Yeah, I mean, we, I mean, a lot. I think that his, like, ability to be objective, I am not able to be objective at all with this material.

These are my friends, my sisters, my life. I don’t even, Brendan has pointed out so many things in the play that are there that I’m actually not even able to see because it’s so close. But then I know on some level they’re there because I’ve chosen them.

I just couldn’t name them. I mean, we had the most, it was absolutely the most exciting conversation that I had with anyone that I met with about the show. And, you know, you really spoke to, well, what Chris brought up the other night when we were speaking to the donors, like you’re speaking about your relationship to shame and that being sort of like as someone who grew up, like, you know, gay male sexuality and female sexuality are both sort of transgressive things.

And so along with your desire is a lot of shame and those kind of, well, you’ve spoken really articulately about how those kind of become enmeshed and how do you separate the two? And is it possible to separate, to take away shame from desire without losing desire? And that was something that you know, that was, that’s your experience and that’s what you described, but it seemed to ring very true with the play and yeah, to be a really important sort of perspective on the play. Can you tell me about how the cast came together for this show? Great luck. Yeah, we were really lucky to get an amazing group of people together.

I mean, it really, there had been a prior workshop of the play of which Christine Horne had participated in and this was before even I was a part of the project. So Christine had been sort of following the project for a while. And then we just sort of found sort of a couple of great actors.

We just felt kind of, it’s like creating a dynamic. And so I think the two other actors sort of complete the dynamic very, very well. Nice.

Nice. One of the things that I’d like to do on the podcast and talk to people about, you know, why do they do this theatre thing? Like, what is it that draws into it? What are they, what keeps them in it? So I was wondering if I could, if you’d both be interested in talking about like, why theatre? Goodness, yeah. Oh, that’s such a good question.

Do you remember, just narrowing it down, do you remember when you first realized that you were interested in theatre? No, it’s been with me too long. No, I could make something up, but I mean, I think it’s like, I think to bring it back to consent, like it’s a kind of consent where like, it’s a permission structure where like in this room now I’m having conversations that like I don’t have in other spaces in my life. And that’s true of any, whether you’re working on a play that’s that’s your first play and it’s about your life, obviously that’s going to be true.

But even if you’re working on like Chekhov with a great director, that’s going to be true. So I think I like that, just the sort of permission structure for connection where there wouldn’t be otherwise. Were you doing, did you do plays in school? Did you write in school? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What did you, what did you do? Remember? Like as a kid, kid? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did lots of musicals. Yeah, I did.

Like I was always in a show, um, musicals. And then, um, and then a friend of mine who we’re talking about today started a theatre company in Windsor. And so then I did who, and their sort of mandate was to do like weird, weird theatre.

And so I did a lot of weird theatre in Windsor. And then I went to theatre school in the UK and then I worked a bit there while I was in school and just after, and then I came back here and have worked as an actor since. So just whatever.

Was there a point where you realized that it was like the thing that was going to be your life’s work? Do you remember, like, was there ever any question? I think there probably just wasn’t ever any question because I can’t track, I can’t like track a moment or anything. No, no, no. But it’s evolved like my understanding of what I would do.

I think I would, I think I would have said when I was 10 that I was going to like do musicals and then it evolved towards, you know, contemporary plays and classics and, and then writing became a part of that. I don’t know. Later in high school, 17, 18.

Did you write for like the Sears festival or for your friends? No, I didn’t go, I didn’t go to a high school that knew what the Sears festival was or had anyone that wanted to do drama. So, so no. No, but I had a really big experience when I was 17.

And I, like, I lost a friend and there was a lot, lots of kind of around that, that I couldn’t speak to someone about. And so I wrote this play and I remember just really mattering a lot to me, but, but obviously these events and these people mattered a lot to me. So I really wanted someone to read it and just objectively tell me if it was good.

And I couldn’t share it with people around me because it was obviously about my life. And so I applied to like a playwriting program and I ended up like, and I had to write something else because they needed to. And I ended up getting very like far in that process and being like, oh, okay, I should keep doing this then.

So when I, when I went to acting school, which was what I really wanted to study, I was like, but I’ll, but I’ll keep writing if I’m not studying playwriting. So yeah. And was there a point when you were at acting school that sort of writing became more of a thing or do you find, do you think that you’re like equally actor and writer? I think I’m pretty equally both.

Yeah. And I’ve done a lot more acting. So the writing is newer.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.

So why theatre? I mean, well, uh, well my theatre origin story is, um, kind of, I think helps ground sort of why theatre for me. And so I, I didn’t grow up in a family that went to the theatre at all. It wasn’t very much part of my, my world.

And, uh, for some reason when I was 13 or 12, my, my mother enrolled me in some summer theatre thing for, I’m from Montreal and it was like a, kind of like a, it was like the eighties and there was like lots of like programs for young people to kind of get them off the street to do things. And so there was like this youth theatre thing that my mother sent me to. And basically it was like only run by young people.

Like they gave us this old hanger in old, in the old port when the old port was like really like just falling apart. And so they just kind of gave like, here’s this massive hanger and you, you just do what you want. You write the play, you direct the plays, you act the plays.

And there were kind of, I kind of vaguely remember a couple of adults sort of like making sure that no one died, but it was really like, just like pretty like sort of punk rock, just like kind of do your own thing. And, and so that, that’s sort of my, that was my introduction into the theatre. And so it was like where, you know, I smoked my first cigarette where I met my first gay people where like, like I had my first blow job, like, like, kind of like, and, and most importantly, those are all important things, but it was also the, the space where like, for the first time I felt seen and I spoke a kind of truth.

And so for me, that’s what the theatre was, was a place to kind of do naughty things, but also to speak your truth and to have it received. And so then I kind of learned that there was this whole other thing about the theatre, which is like a kind of, professionalism and history and all of that stuff. And then I kind of got into that as well.

And at a certain point it was like, okay, I really, I want to do this like, like, like for really real, like, I want to be real in my love for the theatre. And so I got really into the sort of art part of it, but I’ve always, I think probably maintained this sort of original thing about the theatre as being a place where you just sort of speak your truth and, and be seen. And sort of in my career, I sort of vacillate between really wanting to kind of participate in the kind of institutional sort of art practice and kind of, kind of went very far down that road.

And then other times when I’m like, fuck, I don’t give a shit about anything remotely professional. I’m really interested in just the, the, the human act of expression and that the theatre kind of allows and, and like, I don’t care if it’s good or bad or if it’s professional or not. I just really actually just want to support the purity of that.

So, so yeah. Was there ever a point where you made the decision, this is what you’re going to do with your life, that you realized it was a possibility? Yeah. I mean, you don’t think it’s real.

Grownups are doctors and teachers and other things involve suits. At what point did it become like a thing that you could do? You know, that’s interesting. I think, I think I still kind of wrestle a bit with whether it’s, whether it’s like a thing that’s actually doable for a lifetime.

And certainly I, you know, I’ve evolved professionally into kind of more of an arts manager and sort of artistic director, which is really primarily what I do. But I think, I think probably like, to be completely honest, like the Muppets were, as someone, like I didn’t know any, my family didn’t know artists. Like for me, like my, the only image that I had of what life in the theatre was, was like the Muppets and, and then this, like this youth theatre thing.

So I think that’s kind of probably, I don’t know, that’s, that was the moment or that was the thing that made me think it was possible that like a group of kind of, I guess, conceivably adults, you know, are engaged in this make-believe thing and are kind of sort of living together, making money. I don’t know. The, the, the notion of a professional theatre artist is still something that I, I, I wrestle with a bit as, as it actually being a possible thing and whether, you know, depending on, on your sort of background, whether it’s like you have kind of an availability of funds that allows you to kind of just have a theatre career or whether actually all of us are engaged in doing a whole bunch of things and we do theatre when we can.

So, yeah. Now, whether, you know, I think for me, it’s like the question around, is that a legitimate way of living or not? You know? And I think that, that there is sometimes in society, the idea that you’re like a teacher and an actor is somehow, oh, you’re not like doing the real thing. And that, that I feel like, you know, I think we should really question that and just go like, you know, you’re, you’re doing your community theatre thing and you’re working in a factory, fuck it, you’re doing theatre.

You know, you’re, you’re a Stratford Festival member, fuck it, you’re doing theatre, you know? It’s funny because, you know, when I left theatre school, nobody ever wanted to admit to doing something else. It was like a failure. It was like, like, I’m an, you know, I’m an actor.

I don’t know. So, not, not waiting tables was fine, but it was like an actor. I’ve also worked on a turkey and stuff like that.

Like, I know people who were like stage managers and they’re like, tell me, tell anybody that I know how to stage manage or like, don’t tell anybody that I also do lights or like any of the other things that we might do on the side. Because it was like, if word got out that they did something else, nobody would take them seriously as an actor. But now I see more people more proudly and more openly talk about, oh yeah, I’m an actor and I’m a writer and I’m, I’m a, I’m a stage combat person.

Like all the different things. There are actors slash whatever were more accepted for that. I think it’s a shift that I’ve seen in the last little while.

Maybe indie theatre has had something to do with that. Absolutely. I think that’s an encouraging thing.

I think there’s maybe a lot of pressure on young people. You know, that kind of the idea of like, it’s your, you should be ashamed that you have like a second job or something. You know, I remember an acting teacher telling me like, I never did anything but theatre.

Like, and it was like, kind of like, and that’s why, you know, I’m like, well, you’re fucking teaching right now. So I, A, I don’t believe you. And B, it was just kind of like, well, fuck you.

Like, you know, don’t that, that’s not, I don’t think that should be a barometer, you know, for, for one’s passion and engagement and like the, the honesty of the pursuit, you know? Yeah. It’s one of those difficult, difficult things to know, like, how do you balance? Cause sometimes it can seem like two different worlds, like one job in the theatre, because they both demand a whole lot of you. When you were, I haven’t studied in England and I don’t know much about the theatre scene in LA.

Did you find when you were there that there was like, that anybody talked about having no foot in two worlds at all? Like this is what it’s going to be. Yes. Yes.

And in fact, I was told cause I was writing, I was part of like a writer’s group. And I wrote something that we did in our third year. And I was told like, you should use another name for writing than you do.

Like it was really, really strong. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And one of the things that really drew me to coming back to Canada and to working here is that I, yeah, I want to do, I kind of want to do everything. I want to direct, I want to dramaturg, I want to like produce, I want to write, I want to act.

And, um, I like that that scene is a strength, like in the world, the Toronto that I’ve known, that scene is like a strength to wear many hats, not as a failing. I’m seeing it so much more and more over the last few years as, as fringe and other, other festivals start to become more important to the theatre career that people are more able to admit to those sorts of things. Yeah.

Yeah. It sounds like, it sounds like the, when you were in England, they were a little bit, they were behind a little bit. Yeah.

They have a lot more history. Like the weight of history is much heavier there. And so the kind of theatre that, uh, like that’s written and that’s produced there is different and not as exciting.

I think I want to, I want to ask a stupid man question, um, about, uh, asking for it because I’m a stupid man, um, in terms of, cause when I hear as a stupid man, when I hear the plays about consent, I assume that it’s not for me that this is not a play first off. Cause I’m stupid. I think, um, it’s not a play that I need that like, I’m not going to be welcome there.

And I feel like, and I wonder if like, you know, cause I’m stupid that it’s not speaking to me at all. Um, how am I wrong as a stupid man? Yeah. Well, we’ve had some interesting conversations like in the room about how like the play was workshopped publicly and there was a really generous, like feature written about it in the globe, uh, by Simon Holt.

Um, and so people knew of the title and the fact that like, Oh, you wrote this play about consent without having seen it. Like I’ve come, my whole year has been spent sort of like meeting people and then being like, Oh, like you wrote that, you wrote that play. Right.

And I absolutely am being like, you know, struck with exactly, you know, the sort of assumptions that you just articulated. Um, you know, I think the play wouldn’t be very interesting if it was just me sort of standing on a stage, wagging my finger, being like, boys, you can’t touch me unless I say this, this, this, this, this, like, that’s not really what the, what the play is about at all. We’re having just much richer discussions about, um, about desire and, and surrender and like the relationship of surrendering sexually with being sexually liberated and how we kind of understand both of those things.

Um, yeah, today at a, at a time when we’re having like lots of conversations around, um, protecting women and, and, uh, how do women actually express what they want within that? Um, so, uh, you know, a lot of men are spoken to in the show. Most of my like, personally, I feel like such a, like, I have lots of like friends that are men, but like, and, um, I have much, I was raised by a single dad. I have much more access to men in my own life.

And, um, you know, men were, there are lots of men in the play that represent ranges of perspectives and it’s a, yeah, it’s, um, I don’t know what else to say. Is there something that surprised you about the way that men look at consent? Um, I think I was disappointed at one point. We got past this, but at one point we were just talking about this today as well.

Um, at one point I felt like when I spoke to women, they would tell me things that surprised them and that they were ashamed of. And that’s kind of what I was going for, like to really just like look at, uh, at, at shame and, um, and men, uh, were like less forthcoming and they were far more, I felt giving me, um, the sort of answer, I think making an assumption about what the play was going to be, um, and giving me answers that just were less authentic. And, um, and so I think I became, I think I became attuned with how difficult it is for men to be vulnerable.

Um, and yeah, so that was something that surprised me and that I learned. Do you think those men were telling you what they thought you wanted to hear? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s completely understandable.

Like we’re living in a, you know, in a very kind of like, you know, PC like censorship kind of point and it’s yeah. Yeah. Were there, were there any guys who were able to tell you that what you felt like was more, more authentic truth? Eventually.

Yeah. Not as many as women. Um, which is interesting because we talk about, you know, the weight of cultural shame being on women mostly.

Um, but, but yeah, eventually it’s interesting because I think that, I mean, everybody was talking about how guys are always talking about sex, but guys aren’t talking about sex. Yeah. No guys are guys have an extreme amount of shame about sex.

So I can imagine people not wanting to be completely honest about it. Yeah. Um, did women tell you anything that surprised you? Oh yeah.

Yeah. I mean, like mainly it just surprised me that like, I have, I have sisters, I have really close girlfriends and it just sort of surprised me that we hadn’t had these conversations before. Um, that was the main thing that we, that are the extent of our conversations about sex would be like, oh, so you had sex with him? Yeah.

How was it? Good. And like, that was kind of it. And to, it was the first time that I was being like, so what’s good for you? What do you, what’s good for you? What do you like? And yeah.

And it surprised me. And it also, um, it surprised me how much people wanted to talk about it. Like I, I kind of felt like, oh, I don’t want to pressure you into being in my consent play.

But in the end, people were really like welcoming of, of the conversation. So yeah. So almost like they were waiting for a chance, somebody to give them like permission to tell stories.

Yeah. Something has only surprised you about this play? A lot of things. I mean, surprise and yeah.

I mean, I think the, the, one of the surprises, you know, I’m, I’m 42. So, so I’m from a different generation and I am surprised by the, the lack of clarity that this younger generation has around sex. I think I had a kind of idea that, you know, growing up as a millennial, like that there was a level of conversation that was maybe a bit more honest.

The kind of, there’s also just like an availability of information that I didn’t have access to when I was coming of age sexually. So to kind of like listen to people, to, to young people sort of attempt to articulate desire with the same sort of, uh, like inarticulated-ness was like a bit surprising to me. I thought, I thought, I thought this generation might be a bit more, uh, able to identify what they wanted and then to communicate that.

Um, which, you know, yeah, that surprised me, but I think indicates just a kind of aspect of the human condition in relationship to sexuality, you know, that. Um, and then I think the other thing that sort of surprised me is, is, um, the, the, the, that, that, you know, I, I sort of came into this play thinking male sexuality was very different from female sexuality and thinking that gay sexuality was very different from het sexuality. And there obviously are differences, but, but I am actually surprised by the, actually how familiar, like how some of the young women feel, how some of the young men feel like, it’s like, it’s all actually quite familiar.

Uh, which is, you know, I guess for me, a bit of a, like who kind of considers himself like kind of like a really sexually kind of liberated gay guy a bit like, Oh wow. I’m really relating to this like 22 year old straight dude, like really relating to him, which is not at all what I would think. That was like, it’s more about the human condition rather than, uh, sexuality.

Yeah. And exactly. And that desire and our relationship to desire our relationship to our bodies and then our relationship to other people’s desires and bodies, like really are, are, are core are a core to our condition.

And, and that, that is just like, that’s just like a basic thing, you know, that transcends generation, transcends genders, transcends sexual preference orientation. Like it, it really is something that really connects us, the problems of desire and the body. Are there, is there any, something that in particular that you hope that people take away after seeing, asking for it? Um, I think just like an appreciation and an understanding of complexity and a willingness to, um, to sit in complexity in all its discomfort.

Um, I would like displays feels quite exposing of me and I’ve been really freaked out and yeah. And I’ve been thinking like, so why am I putting myself through this sometimes? Because the idea of saying some of this stuff on in the room is already kind of like shameful. And there’s parts that I can’t get through without like laughing.

And, um, and, but I do think that, um, what am I trying to say? I do think that if that can like liberate people out of their own, encourage people towards like uncomfortable conversations and sitting in the discomfort and the complexity and the truth and that, then that’s, that would be a worthy takeaway. Are you hoping for like people having great conversations after they leave? I was thinking like conversations after they leave, great sex after the conversation, maybe both either or, or both. Yeah, totally.

Brendan, is there something that you know, I think, I think great sex is definitely the, yeah, I think absolutely. I think, I think the, you know, whether it’s, you go with your partner and, uh, I don’t know great sex, what that means, but more openness. I think that’s great.

I think if you go with a friend and you’re able to kind of just talk some shit out with your friend, which then allows you to just be a bit more open in your sex life, that’s great. I think it’s an awesome play to go with your kid. You know, like, I think it’s like, it’s a great, like, just a great way to just, cause it just puts it, it’s so successfully puts out a whole slew of questions on the table in a really authentic way that I think it’s a really great, I think it’s a really great play to see with like your, your, your son or your daughter.

I hadn’t even considered, uh, parents bringing children to it. Like I thought, I mean, I don’t know about children, but like, like you’re, like you’re, you’re a teenager. You can manage to drag your adolescence to the theatre.

The myth that like talking about consent is probably a really great, you know, absolutely to do. That wasn’t something that I’ve considered. Yeah.

Um, have you hoped for that too early? Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and, uh, and, and hopefully this gives it a vocabulary the same way that I was able to say like, oh, the Gomeshi story were these facts and can you respond to those? And in that I can understand, you know, something in my life, like, you know, a kid can say to their parent, what did you think about this part? Or what did you think about that part? Like it’s vocabulary with which to have those conversations without needing to offer.

I’m offering my personal story so they don’t need to offer theirs and they can still have conversations around these subjects. Yeah. I’m curious about you, you’ve talked to them just a few minutes ago about how exposed you feel with this play and how like you’re having difficulty in getting through some things.

Um, you chose to do this and you like, you’ve taken it from like writing to perform, like to rehearsal to performance. Um, is it only now that you’re starting to feel like, oh my God, I can’t believe I’m doing this. Or have you always been feeling that way? I’ve always felt that way.

I’ve always felt that way. And luckily I’ve had people around me who’ve sort of reminded me of the, uh, the worthiness of like the investigation and the pursuit of the play. Um, so yeah, but no, I’ve, I’ve always felt that.

And, uh, and it’s good. I’m glad that I’ve been like supported and, and, you know, and pushed along and like, and that I’ve obviously pushed myself along enough. What’s your, I mean, how long do you have to, the play opens, uh, when? October 6th, October 6th.

So you have a little bit of time, but we start previews on the, okay. Okay. Um, and so you have a couple of weeks, maybe a week or so to, to manage to, to get through this stuff.

How does that feel? Like, you feel like you want to throw up? Yeah, definitely. Definitely. But it’s also thrilling.

Yeah. Yeah. So, well, there is something about like telling something that’s so personal that, that does bring out the vomit in a performer.

We’re used to hiding behind like finding a truth, but also like not me. Yeah. I’m just performing this thing.

And when it’s your words, it’s, it can be very, uh, like performing is very terrifying. Is this your first time with this particular feeling? Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

I never thought I would write some, even like when I began, began to understand myself as a writer, I never thought that I would write something where I was the named protagonist named Ellie playing Ellie. Yeah. And even when I started writing this project, I thought like I will edit myself out of these interviews and I will, you know, focus on the subjects, the people that I’m speaking with.

And, uh, I don’t really, I can leave myself out of it completely. And then it just, uh, it didn’t serve the show. I needed to be in it.

And then it served the show more if I played me. And then it like, so I feel like each of the steps I’ve taken for a good reason, but yeah, it freaks me out. Did you ever try to write it without you in it? Yeah.

Yeah. And we thought we talked about like casting another actor to play me as well. Um, yeah.

So there were lots of conversations. At what point did you decide that you had to play you? Like in the spring, I think in the spring. Yeah.

I kind of put my foot down. Yeah. You’re right.

What was it about Ellie playing Ellie that you thought was so important? Well, because I think the, I guess in a way the sort of the integrity of the piece kind of rests on her vulnerability, if you will. And so, I mean, apart from the fact that she’s like a very compelling actor and, and, and like an amazing presence on stage and all that, I just felt that for the piece to work, like you kind of, she kind of had to put herself in that position for, for it to, I think, resonate fully as a, as a piece of theatre. And, you know, so, so yeah, you know? Yeah.

And it just seems, it would seem weird. It was just, it also just seemed bizarre. Like what, like, like, like some weird Woody Allen kind of thing where like, you know, Kenneth Branagh is obviously playing Woody Allen, but it’s just like this, it’s like, it’s weird.

It would just be weird. Yeah. Lots of people who will see the show will know me and know that I’m an actor and that I wrote this play.

And yeah. So it would have been weird. Uncomfortable.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

And this way too, it’s like a way of telling the audience, like, I’m okay with this, you know? Like, I’m like, I’m okay with how exposed I am. Whereas if it’s someone else, then yeah, you could worry for, you could worry for like the character as in me, as in the writer. Yeah.

Yeah. What is there something you’re most afraid of in performing this show? Yeah. There’s sections, like there’s just sections that just make me wildly uncomfortable.

Is it shame? Is it what people think of you? Is it like, is it? I think it’s just the conditioning of shame, of shame around like, I’d say female sexuality, but sexuality generally, where it just feels extremely improper to say some of these things out loud. Yeah. Yeah.

But then we have to interrogate why does it feel improper? Like, where, like who is the silence around sexuality? What’s it there for? Who’s it serving? Is that part of the play? That investigation? Or is that something that you’re discussing in the room? And hopefully it will come out in a sort of a subtext. No, that’s part of the play. That’s part of the play.

And that’s part of the idea around like, including, like, I don’t actually find this very embarrassing, but I have at one point, I tell someone how many sexual partners that I’ve had at that point. And people who read that are always like, oh my God, are you okay with that being in the play? And that’s not actually one of the things that I think is more embarrassing, but it’s made me go, yeah, like why? And why is that? Like, is that number too high? Is it too low? Is it embarrassing that I say it at all? Like, why is that a private? No, that’s actually an interesting, dramatic thought. Like, what is it about a number that we’re supposed to be ashamed of? Yeah.

And I’m using the number as like anything. Like I feel embarrassed about this. And then I question, well, why is that embarrassing? And so I think that’s a function of the play.

These are important questions that we should be asking outside of the theatre as well. So I hope that there are some good conversations that come out of this. I hope so too.

Are you guys on social media at all? Websites yet? I have Twitter. Should I say my Twitter thing? Yeah, say it. Okay.

Well, it’s at, but of course, and then Ellie Mooner. So moon with an ER at the end. Cool.

Your website or just a Twitter? Just a Twitter. Yeah. Yeah, I kind of gave up Twitter, but I have a website, mrbrendanhealy.com. And yeah, reach out to me there.

Thank you so much, you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you.