Micheal Ross Albert

Michael Ross Albert is the author of several plays including Miss (FringeNYC; upcoming: Unit 102 Actors Company); The Farmers Lit the Fields on Fire (Edinburgh Fringe Festival); The Grass is Greenest at the Houston Astrodome (FringeNYC, published by Applause in Best American Short Plays 2014-2015); and Karenin’s Anna (Toronto Fringe Festival, “Outstanding New Play,” — NOW Magazine).

Along with the Storefront Theatre, Michael produced the sold-out world premiere production of his play Tough Jews in the heart of Toronto’s Kensington Market. The production was nominated for 6 Dora Mavor Moore Awards, including Outstanding New Play and Outstanding Production.

His play Starfishes opened Off-Broadway at the Theatre at Dance New Amsterdam and is included in Best American Short Plays 2010-2011. It has since been performed across the United States and Canada.

Michael received an MFA in Playwriting from the Actors Studio Drama School at Pace University. Michael is an associate member of the Dramatists Guild of America, and a member of the Playwrights Guild of Canada.

Transcript

Welcome to episode 93 of Stageworthy, I’m your host Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy features conversations with Canadian theatre makers from actor to director to playwright and more. My guest this week is playwright Michael Ross Albert.

His play, Miss, opens September 14th at the Assembly Theatre in Toronto, presented by Unit 102 Actors Company in association with the Spadina Avenue Gang. If you want to drop me a line, I would love to hear from you. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter at StageworthyPod, and you can find their website at stageworthypodcast.com. Performer or theatre creator, especially if they’re indie, almost never gets interviewed.

Yeah, I’ve lived in a couple other cities, one of them was New York, and I feel like I went to public talks a lot with actors or other theatre makers, and we don’t do so much of that. No. Maybe we don’t listen.

We like talking a lot, you know, like we go to forums, open, maybe I’m eating my words. No, but I mean, one of the things that I think is, I think New York has, and I mean, it’s hard to say because I’m not in it, my perception is that New York has more of a theatre community, and Toronto has a few different communities that consider themselves the theatre community, and they don’t connect. There’s no place to connect.

Really. Yeah, that’s, it can definitely be tough. I’m, like, not to say that the community in New York isn’t separate, or contingent on the size of the venue that you’re used to performing in, but maybe it’s that there’s a larger, like, theatre-going community.

Yes. You talk to audiences that will go to shows, regardless if it’s uptown, if it’s downtown, that, like, they are hungry for this kind of, for the type of work that they know speaks to them, and they actively seek it out, and I don’t know if it’s because apartments are so small, you’re always looking for something to do outside of your comfort, outside of your home, and so there’s this really, you know, just normalized culture of going to the theatre, which we don’t really have here, and then if we, and people that do go to theatre are, you can kind of pigeonhole them into certain categories, like a Tarragon audience, which we hear that categorization a lot, like, well, it’s not for the Tarragon audience, like, they’re not going to see a show at the storefront, necessarily, so there is a bit of a dichotomy, or a divide there. Yeah, it’s funny because, you know, I worked at the, I was an usher for the Ed Mirvish Theatre for a while, and that’s a particular audience, you know, I mean, that’s, depending on the show, I mean, there are people who go see shows at a Mirvish house that will never go see an indie show because they just don’t, it doesn’t interest them, it’s not big, it’s not like, and sometimes they haven’t even heard of it, they don’t know where to look for it.

Right, and the seats are uncomfortable. There is that, there is that, and, but, you know, you see, like, and I mean, I think that a lot of the theatres that they’re relying on subscriptions do see their audience, they’re sort of looking at the future, okay, this audience is disappearing. Yeah, but, you know, there are great, you know, like, mid-size houses that are making being a subscriber easier.

Yeah. Like, I subscribed to The Factory, I have for the last two seasons, just because it’s an affordable subscription. Yeah, yeah.

It’s, like, it’s got flexible dates, it’s art that I know I’m going to support anyway, and it’s available to my demographic just because it’s not as cost prohibitive. Right, right. So, I think that we’re, I think that those, well, and Tarragon too, even, like, they have the, like, an arts worker under 35 subscription, which can, you know, depending on what your level of financial security is, if you know you’ve got, yeah, whatever, that you can, you can decide to become a subscriber, and I think it’s, it’s, obviously, you know, theatre companies are run by their subscription series and need them to survive.

Yeah. I’m glad that they’re starting to take my demographic into consideration. Well, I mean, I think that, that, you know, they’ve relied on a boomer or older subscription base for a long time, and sort of ignored a younger, a younger demographic in some cases.

Yeah, that might also, do you mean in terms of programming? In terms of programming, yeah, you know, programming, but yeah, I mean, also, like, when I was, when I was in my, in my 20s, there’s no way that the cost of a subscription was even in my budget. No, the cost of a single ticket, you know, like, I remember, I used to, I started working in the theatre, when I was in high school, I did the Paprika, one of the first iterations of the Paprika Festival, and we, I think in, it was at the Terragon, and there was some kind of arrangement where we could just go see the shows for free, and, you know, I saw Rune Arledge twice, that’s Michael Healy play, there was another, there were great shows that we, I think, I think Girl in the Goldfish Bowl opened that season, and it was, it was just so amazing to see this level of professionalism for free, and then I realized how much it cost to see it when I did not have, when I was a high school student that wasn’t involved in that particular program, and it was completely, yeah, unaffordable. You know, there are great initiatives like Rush, and ways to work around the system, yeah, but now it definitely feels as though there’s more of a concerted effort to get us in there.

That’s good, because, I mean, that, that is the, I remember, oh, how many years ago was it, maybe three years ago, there was a forum that was happening during Next Stage, but it got too big, they had meant to put it in a little cafe upstairs at a factory, but so many people were interested that it moved over to, yeah, I remember, to a Pass Mariah, and it was supposed to be a forum on where is the audience going. Unfortunately, it presented no, lots of questions, but no answers, but it was, it’s clear that, like, everybody’s been thinking about that for a number of years, like, how do we bring people in, and that’s a serious question. Some places, like Storefront, seemed to be doing, I don’t know, I mean, when they had a space, I didn’t see the house, but I saw, I saw the audience at Tough Juice, and that was, like, I saw it, and it was packed, and people were, like, sardined in there.

Yeah, a miracle, like, honestly, I don’t know what it was, it was, like, no, completely unprecedented, totally unexpected, and just, like, a real gift. It had, the Storefront’s marketing team on that one just did stellar work across the board, so they’re, like, the ads, the, like, the video and photography ads that John Gundy and the guys from Hu Racha came up with were so well produced, and it was mostly a social media push. We had really good, we had a really good, like, interview on Metro Morning, which helped, like, after we, after I did the interview, I was walking to the space for our, we had a high school student matinee, and I was sitting outside waiting for the cast, and I looked at my email, and the first cast member arrived, and I said, we just sold out the next five performances, and she went, why? Like, we were just so completely floored that we, that within the first week of the run, we sold out the rest of our performances.

It does not happen. No, but I think that you were talking about that social media campaign, and I think that, first off, I think that we, we have to rely more and more on social media to get stuff out, but we have to do it well, and it has, I think that we have to take, like, it has to look slick, it has to look good. People are so driven by the visual.

Yeah, and it, I mean, it has to be specific to the show that you’re doing. There’s a lot of social media that are actors rehearsing in a rehearsal room in street clothes, or, you know, highlighting the cast, which is great, but when you highlight the experience of what you’re going to get when you, when you see the show, especially, you know, knowing, knowing a theatre company’s proclivities, you know, like Storefront has a reputation for doing very gutsy, indie work, so having that reputation combined with the, the, the campaign and the specificity of the campaign, yeah, I think really sold that experience, but yeah, we just, we were very lucky to get as much outreach as we got, and, and to have as, as many audience members as we had. I think that, like, I, like, I imagine that, that, like, as, you know, you saw the first week, and then probably even as the tickets were no longer available, I’m sure people were trying to get tickets, because once a show has that kind of success, people sort of, now I want to see it, you know, but there’s something, there was something about, like, that space for that show had the claustrophobia.

I mean, it was, I mean, obviously a lot of people who might be listening to this didn’t get a chance to see that show. I know, I’m sorry. No, it was a small space, but it was a, a speakeasy in, in Kensington Market in 30s.

I did the first act, it was 30s, second act was? No, so the first act’s 29, and then it’s 34, 33. But the, the fact that the, the space was so small, like, you were, if you were in the front row, you were basically knee to knee with, like, people in the cast. And the fight choreography, you know, was, had, was very safe, but it had this feeling of, you know, these fights exploding into people’s laughs.

We had a splatter section for blood, which didn’t happen too often, but every now and then we had audience members get. Was there a warning? No, there was no warning, because if it was, if the effect was done properly, which most of the time it was, everyone would, would be safe. But we did have a few instances where audience members did get splattered.

So a little more interactivity than they were anticipating? A little bit. It, you know, it’s stage blood, it washes out. It was great, but we.

I mean, that first, the play starts with a fight, so you kind of know what you’re in for. And um, because it starts with that and nobody knows that it starts with that, when the violence erupts that way, the audience was just, like, so on edge, which is, I think, kind of what you want from there. Yeah, I think so.

I think it’s, you know, that introduction is, is meant to really grab you. It then becomes, it’s a, and it, it, it’s a, it’s a funny scene as well. They’re, they’ve got this dead body on the floor that they’re trying to get out and carry up the stairs.

And there’s a lot of physical comedy in there. So that scene is just sort of, and all of the characters in the play are on stage for that opening scene. So it was really about just, like, introducing this world of this play, that it’s violent, there’s humor, it’s, it’s going to be, there’s a lot of yelling.

We’re, we’re at a 10, we start at a 10. Yes. And, um, and then sort of just allow the emotional components of the play to deepen as it progresses, but to know that the, that these are the stakes from the moment it begins.

I’m curious because I’m, one of the reasons why it was in such an intimate space is because the storefront lost its, yes, its performance space. Um, and having to move into that small space, total gift. I wonder how it would have worked in like the, the, the old storefront.

Yeah, it’s funny. We, I mean, uh, we found out that the storefront was closing around New Year’s Eve. And about 10 days later, we had decided to do this at Kensington hall.

It was really, uh, like, uh, no, we had to postpone a week, but we like the plan was to do it as, as, um, uh, on schedule as possible. And when we, and we, none of us on the production team had, had, had been inside Kensington hall before. Um, but I knew that it was there.

And I remember bringing, uh, Ben, the director, our production manager, the storefront’s producing liaison and our set designer, Adam Belanger, all of whom had started work for, you know, had started plans for the show being on the storefront. And there were three of us standing there with these huge smiles on our faces, like, this is going to be amazing. And then looking at Adam, the set designer, just like with this panic stricken look, he could see that he could see that our minds were already made up and had no, and luckily, you know, he’s a brilliant designer and did outstanding work in that space.

Um, and it really, like the design in the storefront would have been really great. And, uh, but it’s the fact that we had those practical stairs, uh, like two sets of practical stairs that we could use. Um, it, it, it was a real, we, we tried to think of it as a blessing in disguise from, from minute one.

Yeah. Um, because otherwise it would just be too sad. Really? Yeah.

I mean, storefronts was, I mean, you didn’t want to open again, but for a while it was like, so indie theatres are dropping like flies. You know, when a two is gone, storefronts gone within six months of one another really hard for, for the indie theatre scene in Toronto. I know.

And, uh, Kensington hall was a really great, um, alternative, uh, especially for this particular play. Um, it’s, uh, it’s not as traditional a black box venue as those other two spaces, but it did provide, um, and it still does like a, uh, an affordable, um, alternative to, uh, to companies that, that are looking for, for somewhere to make their art. Um, uh, it’s, it makes for the opening of this new theatre, the assembly theatre really, um, auspicious.

Yes. Um, because, you know, even though it, it does feel as though there’s a trend of these arts spaces closing. Um, we do like w we, we have a history of, of this happening of spaces popping up, of dreaming really big of making really great things happen and then being forced to close their doors and finding a home elsewhere.

And it’s that resilience of the community that I think is something that we should try and focus on that. Um, and I really, you know, when, when I heard the news about unit one or two, you know, one or two closed its doors first and miss had been programmed already there. Um, and we knew we’re just, you know, postponing indefinitely.

It really, it, it, it, it felt like, okay, we were, we’re going to figure this out. And then when the storefront closed three months before tough juice was supposed to open, I, I had, it was very easy to start to go down, uh, uh, a dark corridor in my mind and say, okay, maybe this just isn’t going to happen. Maybe these pieces.

Um, but when both spaces closed to the, to the credit of, of Benjamin blaze and Dave LaFontaine respectively, it was really just like full steam ahead. What’s next. And it’s that spirit of the artists that are driving these initiatives that makes it so, um, so encouraging.

And so, so, so such an exciting time to be working in the community now. I mean, the impulse to create is still there. So, you know, the impulse that first caused the space to open is still there.

So if you’re going to find another space, then you do it. One kind of longs for the, you know, that influx of money that burst that birth, like these, the, the midsides theatres that still have like those same spaces, like Tarragon pass Ryan and factory that the, the kind of money that allowed those spaces to, to open could, could come back and allow some new spaces. Wouldn’t that be nice? That would be so amazing.

Yeah. Um, I don’t, I don’t really know how to get that money. That’s the trick.

And I think, um, but if we, you know, I think that if we continue to prove that there is a need for these spaces, um, it’s becoming increasingly more difficult for, you know, uh, recent graduates from theatre programs to find, uh, to find a place to, to practice, to work. Um, it’s a one thing to get a general audition for one of those midsize theatre companies, but it’s something else altogether, even to have something like, um, unit one or two, does their operation 24 or storefront does sing for your supper, which are these events. They’re more community building events than anything.

But if you are, if you’re an artist treading water in the city without an opportunity to, you know, really practice your craft, it gives you, it gives you that chance to go in and, and, and make connections and just, you know, exercise. And that is such a, that’s such an important aspect of a creative process that these midsize theatres don’t offer. So I feel like, like originally that, like that was the, that was the job of fringe, right? Fringe was like a place where you could go and like, if you had a half assed idea, you could like experiment to get it in.

But now fringe is like, it’s almost like laughable to think that you can get a show in, you can put a show in there, but the lottery is so, is so huge that you, uh, it’s, it’s difficult to actually get the show in. Well, and, and, you know, and, and I think that there’s, there’s an attitude, uh, which is completely correct that if you want the work done, you have to do it yourself. And, um, an artist can choose whether or not to wait to see if they’ll get into fringe or not, or they can do their play as best they can, wherever they can and not be beholden to the terms of the fringe festival.

And, um, uh, you know, just, just, just find a way to make some mistakes, uh, which is a really good, a good thing to do. Yeah. Yeah.

So when, when did you start, uh, writing for theatre or what is it that drew you to the theatre in the first place? Uh, I, I don’t, yeah, I feel like I’ve always been doing it. I, um, uh, I did like parks and rec drama classes from the time I was young, like five probably. And, um, it was, uh, it was just always something I knew I wanted to do.

I did used to act, um, and I went to an arts high school and I acted quite a bit. And then I went to, um, uh, I did an undergraduate program, uh, and at the time I had already begun writing for theatre. Um, really early on in high school, we had to perform monologues or scenes that we had written.

And a teacher of mine encouraged me to, um, to continue writing, which led me to the Paprika festival. Um, so when I was, I think I was 17, I did my first play there. And, um, so by the time I had gotten to, to my undergraduate degree, which was in theatre, I didn’t really, uh, I was pretty snobby and selective about what it was I wanted to work on because acting made me pretty anxious.

And just, it’s like a lot of boring work. If you’re, if you’re in a, there’s, I don’t think there could be anything worse than being cast in a play where you don’t really like it. And I, and I just found like rehearsals to be a bit tedious and, um, uh, like I could, I could see my interest in being on the stage waning.

Uh, so I started looking at, um, uh, graduate programs in playwriting specifically, and I got into one and I went there and then I, and then it was just all writing all the time. Which, which program did you get into? It was the actor’s studio drama school. Okay.

Uh, which is in New York city, which is like that TV show that James Lipton hosts. Uh, it was one of my classes and the, the actual workshop, like the inside the actor’s studio. Yeah.

It’s a class. Okay. I actually thought it was just a thing they did once in a while for, for PBS.

It’s considered a, it’s considered a class. Um, apparently you’re graded on attendance, but slowly I, I, you know, upper grad as you progress, um, uh, students found that they could pick and choose which ones they wanted to attend without circumstance. Um, so without consequence.

Right. Yeah. So saw a few good, one of the ones of those.

And, um, I started producing at the same time, uh, writing, uh, writing really the focus of the program was on creating as much material as possible. So taking some of those one act plays and doing them in the fringe festival in New York or in other festivals in New York. Um, and, uh, as well as elsewhere.

Um, it was a bit difficult to get them done in Canada being removed. Um, but I, yeah, I’ve just continued with it since when you were trying to produce, is that with it, was that within the actual studio or was that outside of, outside of school, mostly outside of school we had as a playwright in a program in this MFA program, there were elements of, uh, production that were necessary. Um, there was one class, the playwright directors unit where you, uh, it teaches playwrights and directors how to work on new material together with actors.

Um, so I know, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, we have to, we have to back up to where first off there’s, there’s like a school that teaches you about production. Second of all, the teachers, directors and playwrights how to work with each other and with actors. Yes.

Uh, yeah, I mean, well it’s, so the focus of this program is always on, uh, the actor themselves and the, and the philosophy of the actor studio. So, um, actors and I’m sorry, playwrights and directors in their first two years of the program train alongside the actors. Um, what that does is it creates a common vocabulary, right? Um, and it makes it as a, I can really only speak as a playwright that it informed and not as a director.

I mean, uh, that it informed my work knowing what an actor going through this type of training wants to work on, how an actor who’s working on, uh, like an emotional improv improv will construct their scene and the construction of that scene work carried over into structural playwriting tricks. Uh, and so it was very beneficial to me. Um, and then, yeah, for our, so we, I, the playwrights work on their thesis project throughout their entire time at school.

In the second year they bring in, uh, a director and actors and you work on it for, for, for a while. Um, and as the script changes, uh, so does the rehearsal process. Your, you, you learn how to be informed by a rehearsal process, um, and how to deal with one another and how to deal with large personalities and how to make sure everyone’s voices are heard and everyone’s, um, everyone’s ideas are given the attention that they deserve.

What was your thesis project? Um, my thesis project was a play called Starfishes. Um, uh, it’s been, it’s not, it gets, um, it’s published, uh, in an anthology of short plays. So it gets, uh, mostly college productions, uh, kind of, sort of regularly, not as much in these past couple of years.

Um, but it’s, uh, it’s a Canadian play, uh, set in a lighthouse in the Maritimes in the late 1980s and it is about a lighthouse keeper and a prostitute who happens to show up at his lighthouse, um, as the fog’s coming in and refuses to leave. And, uh, the two of them, uh, share a kind of lovely little moment together where they grow and learn about their own loneliness and stuff like that. Do you find that it’s done more in Canada or in the U.S.? It is, it has had one Canadian production in, in, uh, Victoria, I think.

Um, but it’s, it’s published in, in Best American short, uh, which, uh, confuses me a little bit. I’m not sure that they don’t, that they know that Nova Scotia isn’t in America, but, um, it’s, yeah, it’s mostly done in weird, in places you would not expect. Um, but yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s always very lovely to hear that, um, that young students somewhere like in Corpus Christi, Texas are making out in front of an audience because of a play that I wrote.

That’s gotta be kind of cool to, to like hear that like people that probably, they may not have heard of you before now, but all of a sudden they’re doing this, these words that you wrote and they’re performing the show that you wrote. It’s gotta be pretty cool. It’s a real head trip.

Um, it’s, it, it, it’s, it’s really gratifying. Um, especially, um, especially with this piece where, where so much of, so much love from, uh, from the director to the actors that worked on it for two years to the original design team that really informed is all of the teachers and all of the, the students in workshops that put their goodwill towards that piece. It’s, it’s nice to, to know that that goodwill has pushed this play out there into the world and that other people are on the receiving end of it and making it’s, making it part of their story.

Um, even if it’s just for like a little scene study class or whatever that is, whatever, in whatever context it is, they’re working on it. Um, something’s drawn them to it and that is mind boggling to me. I think one of the things that’s kind of cool is I, I, I remember all the plays I did, like especially in high school or even scene studies.

I remember them all and we can talk about them like, like I remember them all fondly. So in that way, like these plays, this play, when these, these students are doing it, that’s like, they’re going to talk about this play like 20 years from now. Yeah, maybe, maybe they probably are because I mean, we all, even if they don’t go into theatre, it’s going to be that the time they did that play and they’re going to see the people.

Remember when you did that play and nobody remembered that. I mean, yeah, kind of cool. It’s, it’s cool.

Yeah. Thanks. I’ll take that.

You should take that. Oh, tell me about Miss. Miss is, um, Miss is a tough one.

This is a heavy, uh, one act play of mine. Um, it’s, uh, it is a real drama. It takes place in the, and it’s sort of difficult to talk about, uh, given its structure, um, that you basically enter into the world of the play with little knowledge of what the main problem is.

And as the play progresses, more information, uh, comes out through conflict. And so, uh, without giving too much away, um, Miss is about, uh, the aftermath of a fight at a boarding school between two students, uh, which has led to a tragic accident. Um, it’s that accident has affected both of the students that are involved.

Uh, one of whom is facing expulsion, um, his English teacher and her fiance. And, uh, the three of them find, so it takes place right before the disciplinary committee at this boarding school meets to decide whether or not the student should be expelled. And, um, this couple has arrived, uh, to speak at the disciplinary committee hearing.

And, um, the three of them find themselves alone in a classroom, uh, right before that happens and a big emotional showdown ensues. Um, and this was first performed at the New York Fringe? It was, yeah. I, um, it was performed, it was produced last year, um, was its world premiere.

Um, it’s a play that I started writing either when I was just finishing up school or had just finished my MFA. And I was, um, I was, I must have still been in school. I know what apartment I lived in.

So I was getting ready. Um, uh, I only had one channel on, on television and it was New York one. And I always watched it while I was getting ready to go to school.

And I heard one news report about something that happened to a teacher at a school. And, um, I just sort of froze in the middle of my room and saw the play. You know, it’s one of those, it’s probably my only moment like that where I went, yes, that’s this play.

And I started to write it and it was, um, it was just too difficult. Um, I, I think I wrote the first 20 pages and there was something like really, really awkward about the writing process. And, um, it, having, having been a student of, of this particular school’s philosophy and knowing that I needed to go to some very raw emotional places to identify with what these characters are experiencing, because each of them, each of them are at their own rock bottom.

And the, whatever it was, uh, I just, I knew I wasn’t doing a good enough job of, of emulating that or of going to those places in the moment. So I kind of put it away and always had it in the back of my mind. And, um, it wasn’t until, when was it? It was, I was, I was away on a trip and I got some really bad news and I felt horrible.

And I felt like, uh, you know, everything’s meaningless, never going to write again, stuff like that. And it was, and my, I was having a real pity party for myself. Um, and the immediate, and again, something like woke up inside me and I went, it’s that, like, that’s what that character is feeling.

And I, and I was, uh, coming home on a Greyhound bus and I spent the bus trip kind of stewing in this beautiful darkness. And the, and I started from scratch and the play was done, you know, a few, uh, like maybe 10 days later. Only actors or playwrights will, will have like a terrible, like shattering experience and in the back of their heads be like this.

It’s, it’s really masochistic, but it’s also, but it’s also, um, it, you know, it led me work through whatever that, that was really quickly and really efficiently knowing that I, knowing that this is, that this is usable, that this is, that this is good and productive. Um, not that I want to feel that way all the time and not that, um, there’s, uh, you know, we need to, we need to address, um, these types of feelings pretty vigorously and attentively, but knowing that, that you can access that without doing yourself emotional harm and that it’s good for the work. It makes the work like it, it, it gives it a whole different ease almost.

And it makes dealing with the problem easier because you’ve, you’ve put that to that darkness to good use. Yeah. I’ve found that in, in, in my writing at times that, that it helped writing a thing helped me to work through something that I was feeling like that I was able to take what I was feeling, put it through.

And that actually gave me a bit of a catharsis to be able to deal with what I was feeling. Yeah. Uh, I, I, I think with, with this piece in particular, um, that was, uh, to a degree the case, um, it, I mean, it’s, it’s not, it’s not writing as therapy or writing for therapy, but it is just kind of addressing this.

I feel really shitty and, um, I’m, and there’s anger and there’s, there’s all of this justifiable rage, um, that, that can be put to you somewhere else. Yeah. Cause it’s not really doing anything sitting on a Greyhound bus or the Greyhound bus.

If you don’t have anything to do, like to stew and not have anything to do with it on a Greyhound bus would just be so like, you just trapped in a space that you can’t do anything. It was, it was exhausting. Did you have a notebook or were you just like, like thinking about, I did, I didn’t have a notebook.

Um, maybe I did. I didn’t really write anything down. Uh, but I had known, I mean, I knew the relationship, uh, between these three characters or that, like, I knew the story.

I knew what they were doing. I knew where they were all coming from. It was really just a way to, to like get that emotional hook into what each of them are feeling.

It was that feeling you couldn’t get before. Yeah. Do you think you, was it that you hadn’t felt that before when you started to write or was it that you were too young to know it? It’s possible.

Um, yeah, that’s quite possible. It was also just a very, um, uh, it felt like a very like direct correlation to, um, uh, what was happening in that piece. And this was something that I, that I was years removed from and hadn’t really given it a second thought.

And the fact that it just sprang to my mind of like, yeah, this is what Laura feels. I thought that’s, there’s gotta be something, something real there. How did, how did this do at the, at the New York fringe? Good.

Well, um, it’s a very, um, uh, we had a very divisive audience reaction. Um, uh, the last year at the fringe festival, they started utilizing this thing called show score where, uh, which I think something about that is something I’m like, I don’t know how I feel. No, I know.

It’s like it, like it, I actually, I had a few minor panic attacks because like, so if you attend a fringe show, you can go rate it online, uh, and then get a 15% discount off of the next fringe show that you see. And so it aggregated, it’s like Yelp reviews for theatre, which is, um, which is fine. I mean, we should be engaging with our audience in a meaningful way.

Um, but it also, I don’t know that this is the most meaningful way. So there were, so I, you know, read through every one of those comments and some of them were, were like, Holy shit, this is jaw dropping. Like I like, Oh, you know, this is such a mature drama.

See it. And then other people were very disturbed by it. And, um, it led to, uh, some negative, uh, feedback, uh, which is, you know, fine.

Yeah. Uh, I wasn’t really there for most of the production. Um, but I, but there is, uh, we, we did a reading of it at, at unit 102 when it was in development.

And, um, it, if you go on the journey with the play, um, it, it’s a very tense hour and 15 minutes. And I think it can be, uh, uh, it can be disturbing. It can be, um, cathartic.

Um, and it, and it, and I learned from that, that thing from that, that review aggregator that it’s, it’s really dependent on, uh, the individual and their state of mind. But I do know that we, that it is, it’s, it’s, it’s a real conversation starter of a play when we, when we did it at unit 102, we kind of, uh, Dave asked who the audience sympathized with the most and, you know, would point to each actor. And it was like almost an even split that, that each of the characters is coming from such a, from such a, uh, distinct, has such a distinct argument.

Um, and I think each does their best to justify what they’re, what they’re hunting after or what they’re, what they’re searching for or what they want from one another that I don’t think any two people’s reactions are going to be the same. It’s interesting because I’m thinking about that show score. And the reason why some people gave it a low score was because they didn’t like it, not because it didn’t affect them.

They were disturbed by it. And it’s interesting that, um, like we should, like theatre should have an emotional effect on people. We don’t have to like everything.

We don’t have to enjoy everything. Um, and, but the, I think we have to be willing to journey. And maybe that’s what was lacking for the people who didn’t.

Well, and it’s, to be fair, it’s a really tough sell in a fringe setting. We ended up like, I remember handing out postcards and, uh, the actors started doing this thing where they’re like, there are no clowns. There are no drag queens.

There’s no circus. Just come, just come. It’s just drama.

And, and, you know, I, I remember going up to an old woman and said, are you looking for a really serious play? And she said, I don’t want to see anything serious. And I thought, Oh, well then don’t come to my play. Uh, which is fine, but we, you know, it’s, it is, it’s really tough to do drama.

People are often looking for something, people are looking for something light or they’re looking for something that they want to see and see something like fantastic. Yeah. And if you, you know, if you take a chance on a show, uh, and find yourself stuck in this tense lights up, lights down hour and 15 minute long show about disturbing content.

And then, um, there’s the, you know, you’re probably not going to have a good time. Um, so, uh, it was, you know, it, it was, it was a really great learning experience. It was, it was also, um, it’s always invaluable to see the play on its feet.

Um, and watching, watching this play when you get as talented a cast behind it as I had in New York and the one, and as especially the one that’s doing it here in, in Toronto for who are fantastic. Um, it, it can be like, like watching acrobats, like, like watching tight rope walkers. Um, and that’s, and that’s the desired effect.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s just kind of like tense and breathless and, um, uh, exciting.

Hmm. Hopefully. I’m sure.

I’m sure it is. No, I’ve never done the, the New York fringe. I don’t know a whole lot about the New York fringe.

Um, but you’ve, you’ve had a couple of shows at the New York fringe festival. If you were to compare it, say with the Toronto fringe, which I think is sort of a mid-sized fringe, if you compare it with Edmonton in Winnipeg. So Toronto’s midsize, where would you put, uh, the New York fringe in terms of size? Um, it’s about the same size, probably about 200 shows.

They are going through some big, uh, overhauls. Um, they, uh, they took a hiatus this past year and, um, have just announced that there’ll be coming back in a much smaller festival. Um, the big criticism that New York fringe gets is like, why do we need a fringe in New York? Uh, it’s a city where theatre is kind of bursting from the scenes.

Um, do you find, do people not support the fringe because of that, that idea? No, I think that their audience, that their attendance is, is always pretty, uh, it seems as though like it’s, it’s pretty regular. Um, and the people that, that love the fringe love the fringe. Uh, it has a real loyal audience base, but in talking about it, there’s, there’s a bit of snark.

Um, it isn’t a Judith like in, uh, uh, you know, in, in the village voice or anyone that’s, that’s doing official reviews of, of the fringe often will do like a weekend at the New York fringe and, you know, five shows and sort of talk about how unnecessary all of it was. Um, the it’s adjudicated and that does lead to, um, to kind of difficult questions amongst audiences and artists alike. So it’s not a lottery fringe.

It’s not, um, it’s not part of the calf circuit, so there is no lottery. Um, but it, uh, I, I’ve been an adjudicator for them and, um, their system of adjudication is, is very involved. Um, they’re, I mean, it’s the largest multi arts festival in North America.

And so the, the volume of, of applications that they receive is so high that they can’t, you know, they can’t possibly have a lottery system, but what they do is, um, they are more inclined to pick, um, conversation starters than they are. Uh, so like I had, I was part of a, an adjudication cluster that was made up of, uh, three theatre people from different demographics, different ages, different genders. Um, and we had to rank the same, like 30 to 40 plays.

And there was one piece where we all gave it a, like an eight and a half or a nine. It was the highest scoring one. And we all just said, lovely.

This is their professional. They’re going to make a great piece of theatre. It all sounds good.

Uh, it didn’t get into the festival. Whereas the one that I gave a 10 out of 10 to, and another person in my cluster gave a one out of 10 to the, when we had to justify our choices to the board, we had this big heated argument and that play got in and that’s their way of making sure the fringe stays fringe. Okay.

That you’re getting a mixed bet. You’re not, it’s, it’s not just creating a curated festival of 200 lovely, professionally made, uh, good pieces of theatre. It’s, it’s making sure that we will walk away talking about it.

Yeah. I guess, I guess in a place like New York, there’s a lot of talent. So you could get like 200 nice well craft.

Well, and they’re coming, you know, for New York, they come from all over the world. So, um, it’s, uh, I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s the case, but it would definitely, it would, there were, there were definitely a few where everyone had pretty generally positive feelings about the pieces and they didn’t get, Huh.

Huh. Interesting. Yeah.

Well, I guess that, I mean, that is a way to like replace the fact that, you know, the lottery system means that you don’t know what you’re going to get. And so if you’re in like doing the lottery, anybody can get in. So you don’t know, but there’ve been like, there’ve been years where I’m just like, I don’t even know what any of this is.

Yeah, I know it’s, um, I, I’ve, I have never actually gotten in to the lottery. Uh, I, I, I applied for, I applied for many years in a row. Um, uh, it wasn’t until a friend of mine, Caitlin Robson, uh, said she was going to apply to the fringe for the first time and wanted to do a play of mine.

And I was like, yeah, well, good luck. I mean, you could totally do it, but I’ve been, I’ve been, I’ve been applying since I was in the high school and I never got in. And then lo and behold, her first try, she got into the, I mean, but you never know.

I mean, you never know. I have in, in my life, I think in two iterations, once in the nineties with a friend and then once with Keystone Theatre a couple of years ago, we got into the fringe through the lottery, but into the Toronto fringe. Yeah.

Keystone had done some other fringes, but it was like, like those just twice for the Toronto fringe. Like you never know that lottery system is, uh, really based on luck. Yeah, it certainly is.

And, um, great, you know, that’s led to such, um, excellent work and experiences that, that are invaluable for the, for the artists that’s putting them on. And then every now and then you, like I’ve stumbled into a show that I didn’t know anything about or had no expectations and, and it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, stuck out as a really like fond theatre going memory. I’ve had other experiences.

We’ve all had other experiences and that’s the, but that’s the thing is that sometimes, you know, I mean, the thing is that there’s so much and you end up in this spot and you’re like, okay, so that show is sold out. I got some time to see a show. I was going to see a show.

I can’t see that one. So what’s on now? I’ll go see that one. And then you end up in either a really wonderful magic situation or you sit for an hour wondering what you’re looking at.

Yeah. But that’s, that’s fringe. And, uh, it’s really the only, it’s the only way, like you can, you can only really get good by doing stuff.

Absolutely. And so, and by having that dialogue with an audience and by, you know, realizing that people are either really digging what you’re doing or suffering through it. Um, I think that that’s all very informative and, and very in the spirit of fringe.

Speaking of like having people like learning from having people watch your shows when you were writing shows for paprika and things like that, were you conscious of learning from the audience or were you just thinking about getting the thing done? And at what point did you realize that you were learning from the audience? Probably, yeah, it was probably that early on. My first show at paprika went really well by all, um, uh, standards, but you know, as, as well as could be expected. And so, and I was like a shitty 16 or 17 year old.

So this really went to my head and I did another show at the paprika the following year and it really wasn’t going as well. And I wasn’t, I didn’t act in it. And I watched it or I would sit backstage and I could see that the audience would all shift at the same time, you know, they’d all move in their seats or, you know, someone would like, look at their watch and I could start to tell all of those little movements.

And I thought, what is so different about this piece than the last one? And, um, and, and so I’ve been, I’ve tried to be aware of, of that throughout, but there’s, it’s, and, and I’ve had the benefit of being in a specialized program where my work was subjected to workshops and things where the was, was a major part of, um, uh, of the place development, tough juice was in development for years and years. Um, and all of those things were, were aspects to take into consideration, but without that, um, it can, it can be quite difficult. Um, and, uh, you, you don’t, you really don’t know until you get it in front of an audience because things can be going great in rehearsal.

Everyone’s in on the joke. We all like that joke gets a laugh every time. And then you get into, you get into an audience that’s like, it’s if it’s snowing outside and, and, uh, the house is a little light and it’s getting dark early and no one wants to be there.

And all of a sudden that joke isn’t as funny as anyone thought that it was. And I’m always, anytime I’m like presenting something new, you know, we’re having a great time in the rehearsal, but that first performance, I’m just like, I’m waiting. Yeah.

Like I didn’t know where the first laugh should be. And if it’s not there, what do we do? I know. And it’s interesting cause an audit, you know, having done a few workshops, workshops are kind of different from like regular performance because a regular, a workshop audience has come sort of prepared to think and tell you about the show, but they’ll tell you different things than a regular audience.

Yes. Cause a regular audience will not say the words. I didn’t like the show for the most part as an usher at the Amorvist theatre.

I learned that people never don’t like the show unless they have like regular people. Don’t not like the show. They say things like it was so well done or everybody did such a great job.

They do. They say, how did they learn all those exactly, exactly. But the audience tells you things in the way that they watch the show and they move.

And like all those things that you described with the audience, people looking at their watch and shifting at the same time. I’ve watched audience members suddenly become fascinated with like the lighting fixtures. Oh yeah.

Things like that. Like all the things that they do. Um, though those are telling you the things cause the regular audience just won’t say the words.

I didn’t like it. And here’s what I didn’t like. Yeah.

And, uh, how Canadian it’s true. Wouldn’t it be great? I mean, in a respectful way, of course, to be able to say, you know, I didn’t, I didn’t really care for this production. I think that the, you know, there wasn’t a lot of tension in this scene or this failed to hold my attention or, you know, there, there are ways to, to give informed feedback about what you didn’t like.

They can. I think the average audience member feels like I paid this. I paid a certain price.

I went to see the show. I was supposed to like it. Yeah.

So therefore I must have liked it. And they will lie to themselves with those things. Especially if they’re paying through the nose to see these, these, um, expensive big budget things.

But it was so well done. That’s not a thing they’re saying to the staff, to the ushers. They’re saying that to their friends as they’re leaving, like they’re convincing themselves that they enjoyed the show because they feel like they have to, like you’re saying, cause they paid so much because, you know, they’re again, for whatever reason they’re supposed to.

It’s a weird thing that we do. I know. How do we get, how do we teach people that they’re allowed to not like stuff? I thought, well, you know, you just have to do more of it, right? Like the more you, the more variety that like, if you’re subscribing, if you, if you have a Mirvish subscription, if you are an old person that has a Mirvish subscription, then this is what you’re doing with your, with this is the only stuff you see.

You only see Aladdin and, uh, Come From Away and other big shows. Um, you don’t have any basis of comparison and you think that’s what theatre is. I had someone see, um, the first play, uh, that I did in the New York fringe and they came up to me afterwards and said they’d never sat so close to the actors before.

This was in like 150 seat black box theatre, which is like large, you know, it was in La Mama. It was like, it was a good size house. And I looked at them like they were from Mars because most of my education has been in much smaller than that.

So if you, if you have variety, it’s like, uh, you know, different tastes in foods. If you go to, if you, if you know different cuisines from different parts of the world, you’re more than likely to say, no, I don’t really like Greek food, but we can go for a tie. Like there’s, there’s, and there’s a way to, you know, you have a basis of comparison.

Whereas if you’re only going to dirty dancing, the musical, um, or things like it, you may not know that it’s okay to leave it intermission if you aren’t enjoying yourself. And stuff like that. I’ve seen audiences that thin out at the intermission, you know, that things aren’t going so well at that point.

Well, I think Brecht would say that things are going just fine if they’re leaving it intermission. It depends on why. Yeah.

Yes. If they’re leaving because they’re, because it’s flashed into the music. Yeah.

Then, you know, if they’re, if they’re leaving because they’re bored and things aren’t going so right. Um, so, uh, Miss is opening, uh, like on the 14th, the 14th and, uh, uh, at the new assembly, assembly theatre, the new assembly, well, the assembly, the assembly theatre, it is new. I got the, it’s in Parkdale.

It’s on queen street. It’s got two bathrooms, two bathrooms, crazy. Uh, and it’s a really great new space.

That’s actually, you know, as far as most indie spaces go, that’s actually a, a pretty high end. I know. See, this is a very auspicious, it’s a sign of good things to come.

Where did we find you online? I have a website, michaelrossalbert.com. Uh, and I do Twitter and stuff. Uh, so you can find me there. Awesome.

Well, thank you so much for doing this, Michael. Thank you.