Nina Okens

Nina Okens is a Toronto based Designer. Her work has been seen in such productions as Pea Green Theatre Group’s Clique Claque and Three Men in a Boat, Cahoots Theatre Company and Theatre Passe Muraille’s Ultrasound, Théâtre Français de Toronto’s Albertine En Cinq Temps. She has also designed subtitles for recent productions at Théâtre Français de Toronto.

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Transcript

Welcome to episode 92 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy features conversations with Canadian theatre makers, from actor to director to playwright to more.

If you’re listening for the first time and you like what you hear, I would love it if you would subscribe to the podcast. You can find Stageworthy on Apple Podcasts and Google Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. And whether you’re a new listener or you’ve been listening for a while, please consider leaving a comment or rating.

Your ratings and comments help new people find the show. And if you want to drop me a line, I would love to hear from you. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter at StageworthyPod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. My guest is Toronto designer Nina Okens.

Nina joined me to talk about the art of creating surtitles for theatre. I know it is that, you know, it helps people to understand what’s happening in operas. Yeah.

That’s how I understand surtitles. Yeah, yeah, that’s pretty much it. Okay.

And it’s not any different in theatre, except for maybe the pace is faster because opera is stretched out. Whereas in theatre you’ve got rapid fire. So I think maybe in opera there’s more latitude to be had.

Do you want to say this from the podcast or are we recording? No, we are. We are recording. In opera, because, you know, there’s a lot of repetition.

Mm-hmm. I mean, not all of it is slow, but generally, you know, it’s the song lyric. So you can do the translation in its entirety.

But in theatre, because of the speed, you often have to edit. Okay. Oh, do you have to, like, not literally have the surtitle literal? Well, because in theatre, as I understand it, the people who come to see a show in a language that they don’t understand, play, still want to see the show, not crane their neck at a screen and read surtitles.

No, no, that’s very true. So essentially what you want to do is give them enough that they understand, but then can cast their eye down and watch the action. Okay.

Huh. Okay. Yes.

But at the same time, as a translator, as a craftsperson, an artist, you want to give them the most true translation that you can, preserving the nuances, the poetry of what the playwright has given. Right. Because no two playwrights write the same.

Of course. Sometimes there’s rhymes and alliteration. So you try to capture as much of that as you can.

But there are a couple of rules, like names, like Nina or Rick. You wouldn’t translate them. You would leave them out altogether of the sentence as much as possible.

So if the sentence was, Rick, come get dinner, you would just write, come get dinner. Because people are still… It’s not like they’re reading the translation and not hearing it. They hear the Rick.

You don’t need hear Rick in a different language. So you just need to understand the rest. So there’s things like that.

You’ll do all… Anything that you can, you can contract. So if it’s, you have not done this, have not becomes haven’t. All of those, even if they’re not… Unless they’re really important in the script, you shorten all of that.

So are you translating? Sometimes. I mean, Moliere has already been translated into English. So often, and sometimes very badly and sometimes very well.

So you take into account existing translations. If the play is being performed in a modern setting, sometimes you will tweak the so that it’s not so old-timey. Sometimes it’s a brand new play and no English translation exists.

And so you are essentially the first one to do that. And there’s always like this desire, I think, in me anyways, is to do the most beautiful literal translation as possible. But when you’re subtitling, you’re going… The way we do it, and I’m sure there’s many different ways to subtitle in different computer programs.

We annotate a text and then we create a PowerPoint presentation. So each slide is a chunk of text. So instead of doing a translation and then working it into a PowerPoint, we do directly into a PowerPoint.

So we’re immediately kind of doing all the editing and the crunching. So a subtitled script can’t really be a full literal translation. So it’s a different… Yeah, because then you have to re-expand.

It’s like adding water to it to cook it. So when you are… You said we, and when you say we, who is we? We, okay. So I’ve only been subtitling two and a half or three years now.

And I learned from Gunther Dreyfus, who still subtitles for the opera and used to do all the subtitling for Théâtre Français de Toronto. And she’s slowly retiring. She’s had the luxury of wanting more time to do other things.

So when she knew she was going to be leaving Théâtre Français, she knew that I was interested. And Melanie Hall, who has been stage managing for Théâtre Français, was also interested. And one of the actors at Théâtre Français, Christopher Webb, also has a background in translation, or has studied translation.

So the three of us kind of formed a team, and Gunther trained us. And then the following season, we each did two shows, or six shows each. And then we also kind of proofread each other’s stuff, and we bounce ideas off of each other.

And because it’s not only the creation of the PowerPoint and the translation, but someone has to be there on the day of the performance, operating the search engine. Oh, so you not only make the slides, you run it as well. Yeah.

So you have to sit in on rehearsals, make sure the timing. Because that’s the other half, is the technical standpoint. One thing is coming up with the words, but you want to make sure that you’re not giving away any punchlines.

Sometimes you have to kind of split something into two slides, because timing doesn’t work. And then the other half is like, it’s a duet with the performers of pressing go at the right time, so that the right slide shows up. And then what if they reverse a couple of lines, or forget some text.

So you have to kind of be ready to improvise, or kind of scoot forward, or just kind of hold, and wait to see where they land. What do you do if they skip a line? Are you able to skip ahead? Yeah, you generally just skip ahead. The irony is that the people who are watching the show who don’t speak French, they won’t know.

Obviously, they’ll know if you all of a sudden are like zipping through some slides before they can read it. I mean, and sometimes they skip full scenes ahead. It’s never happened to me.

And Melanie Hall has been operating most of the surtitling, because of just the schedule. And she’s more at ease in the booth doing that stuff. My background is in design.

So usually by opening night, I’m walking away. So I’m still always a little bit kind of on edge. It’s actually a lot of fun.

Once you get past the nerves of it. I imagine it’s much like performing. Yeah.

That kind of like, okay, oh, he’s gonna pause. Like, I’m gonna just you know, you because you, you kind of want to release the slide on the second syllable, or like the second word of the sentence, right? It’s just a feel that you need to have. So anyway, so there’s, there’s three, there was three.

Now there are two. Christopher has been very busy with his acting career. He’s, he’s out of the game.

So now he’s Melanie and myself. And, and then I picked up contracts with Théâtre Nouvelle Ontario, which is the French theater company and stuff. Right.

Yeah. So I do their entire season. Yeah.

You mentioned that you come from a design background. And that’s mostly costume? Yeah, costume design. Yeah.

So what is it that drew you to design? So because you’re, you have two things that are basically design based. You have costume design, you have surtitle design. Exactly.

So how do you, how did you come to theater? To theater? You know, I saw Les Mis when I was 13. But how I got into surtitling is, I mean, I had the benefit of growing up trilingual. So I’ve always kind of been translating or, or, or witnessing translations.

Cause I don’t think I generally, I have had to translate anything, but you know, I think it’s, it’s ironic because English is actually my third language, but it’s the language I’m most comfortable in. And so when I often read something in French, my brain is then transposing it into English or how I would say that in English or same with German. So I’ve always, you know, I love finding bad translations.

I used to work for a toy company and, um, we made radio controlled, we, they made radio controlled airplanes and helicopters. And one of them, uh, was our basic model and it was easy to fly. Right.

And then in French, underneath it said, which, you know, they, they fail to take into account that voler can also mean steal in French. And the way they had worded it was that this plane was easy to steal. So, you know, I’ve always loved how, you know, there’s just these little intricacies to it.

So I’ve always watched Gunther’s work. Uh, you know, whenever I was in the audience watching my, you know, tired of watching my design on stage, I would glance up and watch Gunther’s design on the screen and, and, uh, uh, I was always like, I could, I could do that. And I was kind of thrilled to kind of find, um, something that I could help or tweak or nuance, which is kind of a bratty thing to do because it wasn’t my job, but, uh, and she’s a seasoned professional.

She’s probably the person in Canada who’s done the most surtitles, but, um, uh, with the French language, it’s just nuances. So, um, I, I, so when the opportunity came up, I was like, yeah, I absolutely want to do that. And in many ways, uh, I, you know, I’ve been designing costumes for 20 years and I still do it, but there’s the designing surtitles or translating is as exciting to me, or maybe more.

It’s, it’s like what designing, designing is still very interesting to me, but like there’s like an excitement to coming home and being like, I’m going to do five pages, I’m going to translate five pages tonight. And then, you know, 15 pages later, I’m like, I’m just going to do two more. This is too much fun.

So, uh, it’s like the great big puzzle of finding the right word, spacing, you know, and then being like, oh, that word has too many syllables. I can’t fit it all on one slide. I need to find something that’s shorter, but still has the same impact.

And, you know, and then, and then, you know, figuring out how to pace it and running it is just, it’s really exciting to me. So there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of nuance to it. It sounds like there is a lot of nuance to it because sometimes the best word isn’t the best, uh, spatially on the slide.

Um, sometimes you have to choose between, you know, sometimes there’s like three adjectives to describe something and you know that the playwright has like chosen those three words with care, but your slide can only hold two words. And then you’re feeling which one of these has to go and which one’s the most important. What would the playwright think? And, you know, and sometimes the playwright’s alive and you can actually ask them, which is great.

And sometimes the playwright is, you know, not, you know, alive, like, well here. So, uh, you kind of just have to give it your best and hope for the best. When you’re asking a playwright, uh, if you can, you know, if there’s three words, I need, I can only fit two, um, which words would you choose? Do they ever get like, we, you can’t cut a third word from my third titles.

Do they ever get a little? Uh, no, no, I haven’t. Well, I mean, I guess I haven’t asked that many playwrights, but, uh, but I’ve never, it’s always been very collaborative and, you know, more often than not, it’s like, um, I get a script and then sometimes if it’s a, it’s a show that’s already, um, been produced and it’s being brought to Taft-Hauser or TNO, uh, I get a, an archival video and I’ll read the script and then I’ll watch the video and then I’ll read the script of the video and realize that there’s some large discrepancies. And then, and then I’m like, okay, well, you know, sometimes that happens.

Shows do evolve and that’s just part of it. And they’re like, oh yeah, we kind of improvise that scene every night, but you know, what’s in the script is the gist of it. So just leave it as is.

Um, I don’t think there’s, um, I think the surtitling of, well, the surtitling of opera has been around for a very long time. Surtitling of theater is a relatively new and emerging art form. And just like they’re, you know, we don’t operate with any kind of software, uh, that’s specific to it.

Everything is kind of like handwritten in the script and then scanned and then, um, and we use PowerPoint. Uh, it’s, you know, maybe it’s just like, you know, how projection art was considered 10 years ago as this like new and emerging thing. Um, Well, it’s interesting because, you know, when I think about surtitling, I don’t think of it, uh, in theater.

I think of it in opera. And of course it makes sense for theater. It makes sense for, um, theater that is not in English, but people who maybe don’t speak the language might come.

Um, and I guess it just never occurred to me that it was something that was, that was being done because, uh, you know, when I see a show that’s, you know, at the French theater, I think, oh, I don’t speak French. So I, there’s nothing, there’s no way that I could go to that. Right.

I think a lot of people don’t know that there’s surtitling involved. Yeah. Well, it certainly was the case when we started.

Uh, and I think we’ve been surtitling maybe seven, eight, maybe even 10 years now at TFT. And we would do maybe three performances out of 20 with surtitles, uh, usually like a preview and a pay what you can, uh, or maybe both pay what you can and they would always sell out. And so we keep adding more and more and more of them.

And, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s really interesting because, um, you know, in opera, the surtitles are always like, you know, above the stage or on either side of the stage. Uh, and, and the battle is always, how do you make sure that the English surtitles don’t disturb the people who don’t need them? Right. Right.

Right. Right. Uh, and I’ve heard that there’s new technology where, you know, audience members can get eyeglasses where the, like the surtitles are projected on the lens.

I think it’s similar to, uh, like if you go to, uh, movies, they have this, that technology for the deaf. So it’s like, it’s called rear window projection. Right.

Very cool. A little out of our budget. Yes.

PowerPoint projectors, you know, right in our budget level, but you know, it’s very interesting. Um, I did, actually I did a show, I designed costumes for a show last year for Cahoots Theatre, um, uh, company, uh, called Ultrasound, which was written by a deaf playwright and performed by two deaf actors. Right.

And it had surtitling, because one of the actors only signed. Right. Right.

Right. So, uh, and then the other actress spoke with a deaf accent and also signed at some point. So we had interpreters on stage, but we also had, uh, Trevor Schwellness was the set and surtitle designer, which was great.

So the entire set, uh, was built so that it could take projections and the surtitles would be projected wherever the actor was in the room. Oh, that’s brilliant. And not only that, but one of my favorite things about it, and I think it’s just so brilliant, is at one point the couple is having an argument and as the argument becomes more heated, the surtitles started to, um, rise above each other to kind of denote that it was escalating.

Oh. So it would like move up the set and I, it gets just like, that’s so genius to me. And it made me think like, how, what, you know, are there other ways, uh, that, that we can integrate, uh, instead of like trying to separate the surtitles, you know, are there, are there shows that we can create that, that can integrate them right into it so that it’s the, the point of, of, of the show is to like make it as, uh, multilingual and accessible as possible.

Because there’s something beautiful about integrating the, uh, the surtitling into the set itself. Yeah. Where it’s not, it’s just part of the show rather than a projection.

Exactly. It’s not separated. You know, and, and, you know, obviously you have to take into account, you know, who your audience is and what they need and why is it important? Why would it be important for a French, uh, native speaker to see the English word? Why do they need to see it? I mean, one of the other shows I didn’t surtitle, Melanie did last year had, um, uh, was partly in French, partly in English and partly in Cree.

And then the year before that we did a show that had, um, French and Haitian in it, uh, Haitian Creole. And so like, how did you nuance like all these different languages into like, yeah, it was, yeah. What do you, do you, do you like, what do you do in that, in that instance? Uh, well, we just, uh, you know, you use italics.

It’s about the spacing and, uh, and then some of it, you just like some of the music and the song lyrics that were in Haitian, you knew that the French people also wouldn’t necessarily understand. So you kind of left them as is or, or you surtitled them into French and English so that both the French and the English would understand. Yeah.

It’s a, it’s like, it’s like a giant Rubik’s cube or, you know, you want, like once you get one side kind of figured out, you’re like, oh shoot, the other side, I gotta tweak that side and then come back to it. Uh, but it’s just, it’s really quite, I quite love it. It’s the, the, the, it sounds like in order to really get into it, you have to be, there has to be a certain passion for words.

Yes. And wordplay and idioms. Yeah.

Because you know, some idioms just don’t translate. No. Uh, and, and you have to kind of, I’m doing a show, uh, can I swear on this podcast? No, but yeah, fuck yeah.

Oh, fuck. All right. Yeah.

I’m, I’m translating a show right now that will be both at TAMF and TNO this year called Fucking Carl. And it is filled with swear words. And, uh, I don’t know if you know this, but French swear with, with religious words and the English just use fuck basically.

Yes. Yeah. And, and so trying to be as colorful as the French is, is all off.

I’m like, ah, I’m just so bored of just using fuck, fuck this, fuck that, but I need, I need more words. Yeah. Um, and it was just funny because English has more words than many other languages, but I guess when it comes to swearing, the French have got to speak.

Well, there’s, they certainly have come with, with some more entertaining and, and, uh, uh, nuanced ways to swear and the English just goes straight for, just goes straight for it. Straight to the point. Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah. And it’s, there’s a lot of joie in it, a lot of idioms, a lot of, uh, phrases.

I’m like, oh, I don’t, oh, I’m trying to think of the example of it. One of the characters who is in a lower class, uh, was referring to someone being constipated, but in French it was something to the effect of, you know, being tight and, uh, oh, I can’t even remember how we translated it. It was like, I had to go online.

Like I always have like a thesaurus, you know, open the Google translate tab open. And then, but then you have to get like the urban, uh, urban, like a dictionary of sayings and like, just going through the main language, which was, which was the old turd blocked. Yes.

Like where’s that? Like I never even occurred to me. Oh, but yes, that’s perfect. Yeah.

Yeah. Cause you have to also put yourself into like the, the, you know, the, the mindset of the characters and how did, what, you know, what do they speak growing up? And only the, you know, French of Trombley is very different than the French. And then, you know, I think I remember when I saw, you know, when I worked on a Trombley for the very first time, which is the first time I’d seen a Trombley play, I was like, oh my goodness, this is my family.

You know, there’s a bit of recognition there. Okay. I know who these people are.

Um, and, and so I kind of, I get what they, what they take, but yeah, I think I also just read a lot growing up right now in all three languages, actually, at least in French and English, I did a lot of reading. So I just developed an aptitude for vocabulary. Did you grow up in, in Quebec or Ontario? In Ontario, but my entire elementary schooling was in French.

Okay. And then high school was, um, it was like full immersion in elementary and then partial in, uh, high school. And then I really didn’t speak it much from like, you know, senior high school through until I was maybe 22.

And when I started working with Théâtre Français, and that’s where like, I had like a renaissance of French because all of a sudden I was, you know, had to work in French. And now I like all, pretty much all of my work is done in French. And, uh, and my mom will say, you know, you speak better French than I do now.

That’s just because now you’re using it more than I think I’ve had access to a wider range of vocabulary. My mom grew up in Northern Quebec, uh, uh, you know, working class family, you know, intelligent, uh, uh, if, you know, she didn’t finish high school or anything. This is a long time ago.

Um, but you know, I’ve had the benefit of working in French and, and having access to like business French, I guess, to a certain extent. And so my vocabulary has expanded. Every once in a while, I’ll use an expression or a word and she’ll be like, I didn’t teach you that.

And it’s a good thing. So, uh, so, you know, uh, words have always fascinated me. I studied Latin in high school.

And so, you know, the, just the origins of, you know, where do words come from and how do they travel? And, you know, I have friends who are Arabic, uh, and I’ve made a lot of Arabic friends in the last couple of years. And so I’m realizing how much French there is in Arabic as well. And so, yeah, it’s, um, it’s really fascinating.

Um, I mean, it’s not, not theater related, but why is there so much French in Arabic? Because, uh, the French, uh, colonized parts of Syria and, uh, I mean, the borders have all shifted so much, uh, because of the two world wars and whatnot, but, uh, uh, yeah, the French colonizers, the English were colonizers, the Germans colonized, all comes down to colonization. We’ve taken over. Um, and, and then reclaimed.

So, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting when I speak to my Syrian friends now and, and, you know, they’re, uh, because I work in settlement a little bit too. So I’m always trying to figure out what they need. And so they’d be like, I don’t know what the word for this is.

And I’m like, just say it in Arabic. They’re like, Seshwa. I’m like, oh, Seshwa, hair dryer.

I know a bicycle and bicyclette. I’m like, same thing. So it’s always surprising which words kind of were kept.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Now we’ve been talking a lot about, about, uh, about surtitling and, uh, I do want to, I do want to, cause that, I mean, that, that was our entire reason for sitting down, but I do want to talk about, about, uh, your, your, your costume design. You sort of like, just sort of said, yeah, I saw, I mean, it wasn’t decided. That’s what I wanted to do.

But yeah, yes, yes, essentially. Was it the costumes or was it? No, I didn’t even really, it was a half-baked idea. I saw it and that’s, that’s the kind of storytelling, like I want to be part of that experience.

And, you know, I was 13, I was in grade, like I just finished grade eight. So I was going into high school. So going into high school, I was like, okay, drama, like, and I’d never really done much theater.

I think I went to like a performing arts camp or something. And, um, it wasn’t until grade nine until I, you know, as part of like a drama production that I realized that there were, you know, there’s a set. Yeah, of course.

Costumes, there’s the lighting, there’s, and I, and that’s when I kind of went, yes, I want to be backstage. I want to help tell the story. I do not want to be on stage.

Was there, was there anything that made you realize that you didn’t want to be on stage or did you know it instinctually? Oh, I just like the, the, like gut churning, vomitous feeling of like, I do not want to be looked at by that many people and have to put myself, and I, and I was in a couple of shows. Um, I, I was probably quite terrible. Like I, yeah, like I, I, I never felt confident.

Right. Whereas with, with the backstage show, I’m like, I felt at home. Like I felt like that’s what I was meant to do.

Like there was never, there was never a question. And from like grade nine on, I’m like, this is what I’m doing. My parents are like, you sure you don’t want to be an accountant? I’m like, you know, no, I’m gonna, I’m not taking science past grade 10 because I don’t need that for a, for a theater.

And I think in my mind, I was going to go to Ryerson. Like, I thought I was going to go to Ryerson all the way until I went to my interview at Ryerson. And then I went, I don’t want to go to Ryerson.

What school did you end up going to? I went to Sheridan, which I was not even on my radar. I applied to, you know, Ryerson, Brock, Sheridan and Waterloo. I think those are my four.

Oh, and Humber. And went to all the interviews. And Ryerson just left me with such a bad taste in my mouth.

And now it’s a great school now. And like some wonderful grads, great teachers. But at the time, it felt very, I gotta say, they were like, it’s a very difficult program.

There’s no way you will pass everything. You know, you’re gonna fail is what they were saying. It’s a terrible way to get people to go to your school.

Well, you think, right? Yeah. Which was like heartbreaking for me, because I had five years of high school being like, I’m gonna go to Ryerson. And so I went to Sheridan and knew nothing about it.

And it’s a musical theater program with a tech program. And they were like, yeah, it’s a really hard program. We’re here to support you, though.

We’ll do everything we can do, you know. And once again, I felt like I was home. And it was only a two-year program against a four-year program.

So obviously, I didn’t learn as much as I would have if I’d gone to university. But what it did was prepared me. Basically, it launched me into the real world two years earlier to get real world experience.

And the teachers were so great. They kind of just taught you how to learn. Because that’s essentially what theater is.

You’re not doing the same thing over and over again. Every show is going to present you with a new challenge. So school needs to prepare you on how to examine those challenges and approach them and give you the basic toolkit.

Now, you were saying that you spent like most of your high school life thinking you were going to go to Ryerson. What was it that made you think that Ryerson was the place to be? It was pre-internet, right? So I guess I’m trying to figure out how I even learned. And there must have been a brochure in the guidance counselor’s office, right? And I remember having to kind of prod the guidance counselors on the existence of theater tech as a viable career.

Generally, they’re not really good about theater in general. I think when people go to the guidance counselor and they say, I want to work in the arts, the guidance counselor is thinking, how do I convince them not to do this? I’m completely unprepared to answer these questions. And I need to get them to go to accounting school or business school or something, something that I understand.

It’s weird. Do you remember those, it must have been computerized. It was like this punch out job determination quiz.

When I took it in school, it wasn’t like computer. They gave you a pin and you actually had to put a pin in the spot that you agreed to fill in or punch out the number of what you wanted to do. Yeah.

I remember getting this accordion printout. I don’t know how it was made, but I think one of the options was a horse trainer was one of my career paths. It’s funny.

It told me that I should be a secretary. It said that I should be doing filing or archiving or things like that. I was like, I have no interest in that.

So I don’t know why you’re even suggesting that. Yeah. Because those aptitude tests, there’s one question that they never seem to ask.

It’s like, what do you like? It asks questions about what you’re good at. And that’s what it’s trying to tell you is what you’re good at. But it never asks you, what would make you happy or what do you enjoy? It’s amazing to me.

I remember for the first bit of my career feeling like, I’m the one taking all the risks in my career. I’m living on the edge of, and surely as artists, we are not making a lot of money. And we all make sacrifices and have a plan B. I have a day job.

It is in my field, but it’s in television. So it’s not my first love, which is theater. We all do that.

But I remember when, I guess, when the recession hit in 2008 or whatever, and people that I knew who had gone to school, done something sensible, gotten an accounting job or whatever, had had the same job for a long period of time. And all of a sudden found themselves unemployed because their company failed. And they didn’t have the skills to survive because they’d only had one job and they didn’t know how to do anything else.

And they’d become complacent because they were so used to doing the same thing over and over again. Whereas I have no ego. And I had a contract where I painted all the garbage cans in New York Dale Mall once, in their deep underground dungeon.

So I did that because I needed the money and hey, I got to do full finish. I remember that being the moment where I went, oh no, I’ve got some pretty great survival skills. And I get to do what I love.

Well, that really helps out a lot. Just being able to do what you love and to at least incorporate it into your job. I think a lot of people, when they fall into some kind of job that’s outside of theater, when it’s not a theater focused job.

Pardon me. When we do, a lot of us, we go into waiting tables and that’s the traditional theater person job because the evenings are free. But then we go and we get a day job and it’s a job that we fell into.

And it just becomes something that we did because suddenly I started feeling I want to have a roof over my head and I want to have some things. I think that’s just a part of getting older. Yes.

Because when you’re in your 20s, you’re like, fuck, I’ll sleep on a couch. I’ll sleep on the floor. I’ll sleep in an alley as long as I’m doing the art.

And then when you’re 30, you’re like, I want a bed and I want heat and I want food. Yeah. And I want good food.

Yeah. Yeah. You’re like, I’m not, I don’t want Mr. Noodles anymore.

I’m not saying I want, you know, I want like Greek yogurt. Actually, I don’t want Greek yogurt. No, but it’s funny because, you know, there’s the job that you fall into.

And then if you, and often we end up not particularly enjoying that job. Well, yeah. Because, you know, as far as day jobs go, I can’t even call it a day job anymore.

It’s actually a career. I work in a, you know, for a television company, a media group, I guess now, because it includes the internet. You know, I create content, I am designing costumes for children’s television, and it’s not at all what I thought I would be doing.

And, you know, it’s children’s television, so it’s not like highly intellectual, but it’s fun. And now, you know, this year, we launched our green screen studio. So a lot, most of the majority of the content that I’m creating is to be used in the studio with no sets in it.

And that has its whole host of new challenges that, you know, we’re the first studio in North America, or maybe the world to use this particular computer system. And I don’t, it’s, you know, what goes on in the console room to me is I might as well be Gandalf and like, a whole bunch of wizards, yeah, Potter’s in there waving wands. They’re incredible what they do.

And so to kind of try and figure out like how what I create in 3D manifests once it goes through like a camera and a gaming engine and a computer and then on your TV screen or your computer screen, which is different things. And like, it’s amazing how like a color. Yeah, I’ve got an object that’s like, you know, purple, right.

And then I put it, you know, in the studio in front of a camera, and on the monitor, it looks like more of a royal blue, right. But then once it’s gone through the processing, because we put everything into a 3D, it’s kind of like a 3D VR gaming engine. We literally have like the camera, one of the virtual cameraman, because he’s real, but the camera’s virtual, uses a literal joystick to navigate the universe that these actors are acting in a green room somewhere.

So once the purple slash blue fabric goes through that, sometimes it looks more fuchsia. And then you don’t even like, and then it’s going to look completely different on the screen. So it’s really makes the work.

How do you design for that? How do you design when the color that you’re that you’re designing does not end up being the color that people see? Well, it’s interesting, because it used to be that, you know, you got your script, you, you know, set props design, like there was an existing set, or there was a modification. So the set person would go off and do that and get the props. And we’d all show up back at the place with all of our things.

But now I have to wait for the virtual sets to be completed before I can go and source fabrics that then get, or if I’m lucky, an actual like, you know, pair of pants. And then you have to do a screen test with the fabric in every set that that costume will appear in. So the scripts will have to all be written, so that you know where this costume is going to travel.

And then it’s what else is interesting is that that fabric or that item, it might test well from the waist up, but not from the waist down. So because we have a green screen floor as well, and the green is and the light is, you know, it’s like chroma green, right? Yeah, yeah. You can imagine, and it’s very, very brightly lit, because you have to get rid of every single shadow.

So if the fabric has a slight crease in it or fold, and it’s close to the green screen floor, that the green will bounce onto that fabric. And then that bit of the costume disappears. You know, one of the things that I’ve always thought about in terms of like that green screen experience, and it’s one of those things that nobody’s ever teaching in theater school or anything, is how to act with a green screen.

And how not to squint, because the lights are so bright. How do you even do that? Well, luckily, I don’t spend a lot of time in the studio. We have someone else who works on set.

But yeah, it is very difficult for the actors. And they often, you know, at the end of the day, their eyes are a little big headaches. And same for the cameramen, the crew, everyone who works in that space is like, it’s a long, monotonous day.

And it’s, you know, there’s a program that, you know, will project the set, and they can see the set on a giant monitor. So they’re acting, and they can see themselves on the monitor. But everything is like, left to right, right to left.

So what’s left is right. So you have to kind of… You have to think real hard. Yeah.

And then, say there’s a wall on the set that you could, you know, you have to know where you can walk behind or where you need to get, where on the floor you will walk, and then all of a sudden, you’ll be like, knee deep in the set. Oh, okay. So there’s like, definitely like, cuts and spike marks that need to be made.

And it’s, it, I think as an actor, like, it’s difficult. Because also, you have no… As an actor, you feed off of your environment. Yeah, yeah.

And so, if your environment is a big green box, I don’t know how you get much nutrition out of it. Again, that’s one of those things that nobody teaches you how to do. No.

And nobody’s teaching you how to do motion captures. So these are all the things that are, you know, becoming important, but we’re not… Exactly. And, you know, and I think, in large part, you know, green screen shooting has been relegated to special effects, and weathermen, or women.

So they’re, you know, they’re, you know, it’s the stunt people doing stuff. But now, now we’re doing like… Most TV shows have a green screen element at some point. So it’s becoming more and more… Yeah, like in the back of cars, you know, or out a window.

Yeah. So it’s not a stunt, and it’s not a special effects anymore. It’s the everyday.

It’s the everyday. And yeah, we’re shooting entire episodes, like where everything is, you know, and like props have to be tested, like everything has to be tested. There’s a learning curve.

Like we’ve just shot, we’re almost done shooting a series that had 40 episodes. And we were supposed to start shooting our second series in June, but that’s been pushed because of all these logistical issues. It’s been pushed to January.

And we’ve got, you know, puppets, and giant mascot-y beasts. And then we, you know, we still get scripts that call for like props, like, oh, there’s a whole thing, there’s a whole song about lettuce. And like, okay, well, what color is lettuce? That’s a problem.

How do you do lettuce when you’re working on a green screen? Right? Well, that’s, I mean, so you have to kind of also educate the writers. Yes. Right, right, right.

On, you know, what the limitations are, or even what the, you know, what’s the limitations that like a puppet can’t lift heavy things. It’s a puppet. So, you know, you’ve got scriptwriters who are, you know, letting their imagination run wild creating these, but they’ve never written for green screens.

So once again, there’s a little bit of back and forth there in terms of like, okay, well, how can we adapt this to, you know, keep the intent, but make it not look terrible? Yeah. Yeah. So in terms of, you know, back to the theater.

Yeah. When did you join Théâtre Français? It was 1997, and I graduated from college in 96. So I think it was like almost a full year, and they were doing a production of Le Malade Imaginaire, The Imaginary Invalid.

And I was hired to do props. Thérèse Chabotsky was designing, and she won a Dora Award for her design. It was brilliant.

It was set in a circus. And it was the last show that Diana LeBlanc did, or she didn’t direct it, but she was the artistic director. Right, right.

And her tenure was over then, and Guimignan stepped in afterwards, and Guimignan has been there until last spring. So it’s been 20 years. Wow.

Or it was 19. 20 years. Yeah.

So was that your first design job? No, I wasn’t even designing. Oh, you were doing props, yeah. It was my first professional gig, though, of like, you know, it wasn’t an indie theater working for experience.

Right, right. Not paid. So that was… and, god, they’re amazing, amazing people there.

I think my first design gig with them came like two years later, maybe more than that. I did one small show, and then Gui asked me to do the entire season the following year, which is like, when I think about it now, I think, was he insane? Like, I had designed like three shows, and like their whole… well, I mean, their three in-house productions, not their whole season, because they bring in touring shows, but like three shows I got to design. And ever since then, I’ve designed at least one, if not two shows a year.

And that’s… I mean, it blows my mind that I got that opportunity. So you started with… you started doing props, and then you moved… like, did you move the following year to costume, or did you…? No, not with them. I did props.

They had a head of wardrobe named Joy Mattingham for many years, and I didn’t start designing for them until after she left. And I think the reason I was hired was because I had practical experience. Like, I was not only able to design, but I was able to make my own costumes or create, which a lot of the designers that they had been working with were, I guess, higher-end designers who were beyond wanting to do their own work, which I totally understand.

So someone who’s been designing for 20 years, you know, so you get to a point where you’re like, I’m gonna hire someone else to do this bit. I’m gonna do the fun bit. So I think part of the appeal… and I think that’s how I got into design.

When I left Sheridan, I was not a designer. It’s not a design program. I thought I was gonna be a seamstress.

And so I came to Toronto ready to be a seamstress, and I couldn’t get any work. I got some work as an assistant stage manager. And then I did… yeah, no, I… again, I worked at Theatrics Costume House for like six months, and then I designed a show, like a little indie show called Bloody Poetry.

And then my props teacher gave my name to the production manager at the Stratford Festival, who was hiring an apprentice scenic artist. And I was like, sure, I’ll do that. Yeah.

And I went, and I painted for like three months in Stratford and had like this life-changing experience. This is amazing. I love this.

I’m gonna be a scenic artist. And then I came back to Toronto and couldn’t get any scenic artwork, and started assisting designers. And I think, you know, I was a good assistant because I could paint, I could do props, I could do costumes.

And I was, you know, cheerful and perky and never said no, which is, you know, what you want in a volunteer. You want to show up and like do the work, right? So, and then eventually designers started to kind of be like, oh, I don’t want to do this design gig, you know, hire Nina, you know, she’ll work for next to free. And then I worked my way up from there.

And I think, so I had a couple of shows under my belt when TFT, you know, did the offering, but yeah. So when they asked you to design their like three shows for them, was that your first major project? Yeah. Yeah.

Like TFT is still like my first, maybe not biggest in volume, but like in terms of prestige. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, I mean, yeah. So they kind of took a chance on you there. They told me, I mean, and that, I mean, that I think is his legacy at TFT is he took chances on so many young artists who, and I think it’s paid off.

We’ve, you know, we’re all still working in the business and created kind of a bit of a family. So that’s pretty fantastic. That’s great.

But yeah, like, I, I don’t know if I would have had the longevity of career that I’ve had or the comfort or success that I hadn’t been for them. Right. Yeah.

Do you right now? And so you’re doing, are you still designing costume for them and you’re doing, uh, the search titles as well? Is, do you still want to keep doing both or would you, do you want to sort of go more towards the titling? Do you, you know what, it’s a tough question. Um, as I get older and as you know, the arthritis sets in and, you know, working in theater is no joke physically. It’s, it’s tough on the body cause there’s a lot of schlepping.

Um, especially if you live in Toronto, don’t have a car. Yeah. So, uh, what I love about sort of titling is that I can do it anywhere.

Right. As long as I’ve got like my computer and maybe a wifi connection every once in a while. Right.

I can just sit down and do it. Um, uh, it’s way less toll on the body. Uh, and so I, I, I am kind of looking at, at growing that side of my business to, to be able to do that into my later years.

Because as you know, as an artist retirement is kind of a joke, right? It’s not like, it’s not really an option. And I think that’s true of pretty much any career right now is like, you know, retirement may not be an option. And so I need to, you know, have some, I don’t know that, I mean, Astrid Janson, uh, Sean Kirwin, uh, all these fantastic lady designers who are, you know, uh, you know, a couple of decade, I’m not sure how old they are.

Anyways, they’re older than me and I see them approaching those years and they’re still working at it. And, uh, and, and I don’t know if I’ll be able to do that. It’s interesting because, um, there’s the idea that, I mean, I’ve been thinking about it for, you know, as I get older, I think about it.

Um, and it’s the idea that retirement as we understand it and that our parents understood it is the, was supposed to be the, the reward for sticking with a shitty job for, for like your life, you know? So you went to work in the factory and then when you finished working at the factory at the miserable job that you hated, you turned 60 and now here’s time for you to relax in your later years. And I think that if you’re a person who, who loves what you do and it’s sort of like, and that sustains you, it’s less of a, it’s less the reward for doing that. Cause I know, you know, there’s lots of people who, like a living inheritance.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s not like, it’s not like, you know, we’re doing it. We shit. We hate the job.

And we’re looking forward to when we turned 60 or 65 and somebody is going to give us a gold watch and we’ll be able to relax or whatever. But that for artists, I think the fact that we’re working sustains more than anything else. Well, it’s like living to work or working to live, right? And I’m happy to keep doing what I’m doing as long as my body will allow me and my brain will allow me to do it.

Right. I do feel I’m becoming a lot pickier with my theater projects because they are so taxing. And also because, you know, I have a 40 hour a week job already.

Right. And so any theater I take on, on top of that is taking me away from my downtime. Right.

Which we all need. We all do need. Yeah.

Right. So I’ve become like a couple, like a year or two, was it last year? I, you know, I set out, uh, guidelines for what kind of shows I would accept and I failed at following them. What did you, was it because people came to you and were really passionate about the shows or they were friends? What was it? Oh, okay.

And because I had established relationships with them, uh, you know, in, in one case it was, okay. So my guidelines were that I didn’t want to work on a show unless there were equal amount of men and women or involved in it. And that there was at least one person of color.

Uh, gosh, I don’t get off on those shows very much. Apparently. So the first show that I took was with, um, it was a show written by Mark Brownell and directed by Sue Minor.

So directed by a woman. Yay. Uh, with one more man than a woman.

So, you know, I was like, oh, okay. Yes. I, you know, I, it was, you know, with the, the pick of the fringe, not pick of the fringe.

What’s the one in January? Oh, the, the new, new, no. Yeah. I know the one.

And of course, as soon as we finished, I’m going to remember what it is. It’s I, I, I thought frostbites, but it’s, that’s somewhere else. That’s somewhere else.

Yeah. Anyways, you can put a little footnote to this. Everybody knows they’re yelling at me right now.

They listen to it. You’re right. You’re right.

Yes. All of you are right. Um, uh, uh, and I thought, oh, you know, it’s over Christmas, it’s Victorian, it’ll be a Mark Brownell show.

It’ll be fine. It’ll be great. Uh, and you know, I, nothing but good people involved in the show.

And so it, it, it went off well, but it left me a little bit like, and then the other show I did was, um, uh, uh, with Théâtre Francais. It was just last spring. And I can’t remember the name of the show.

Um, Don Juan. Don Juan. See, I was trying to think of it in English.

Okay. That’ll do it. Yeah.

Uh, and, uh, it was the first, it’s the first season with our new artistic directors, and it was the show I was offered and I was like, well, it’s kind of like an audition. Don’t do this. And I might never work there again.

So I did it. And, uh, I, you know, I, and I love, I love way more than Shakespeare. I, he’s one of my favorites.

Uh, but God, that show is just about misogyny and there’s two female characters and they’re victims and like, it’s like, ah, it’s all the things that you never, that you didn’t really want. Yeah. I wanted nothing to do with it.

And I was like, yeah, you know, one actor who is South American. So, you know, there was very little color and these are things that I take to heart. And so, uh, I, I’m recommitting myself to that.

And I’m just realizing that like, I don’t enjoy them as much anymore. It’s not even about being like, you know, politically correct and wanting to take a stand and like, oh, I’m going to sacrifice this project. It’s just like, at the end of the day, once the show is over, I’m like, oh, I wish I’d done the show.

That was more satisfying in a show with, you know, more interesting storylines that maybe reflect the world I live in. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that, I think there’s, there is sort of like, I think I’ve heard, you’re not the first person I’ve, I’ve heard who, who said that they don’t want to work on shows or don’t want to see shows that don’t have like more women, people of color. Like these are like criteria, like you don’t have that not coming to see your show. And I hear that more and more.

And I glanced at that, like, you know, whenever a season gets announced by a theater company, I’m like, okay, so where are the shows, where are the actors, who’s directing, who’s designing? And I’m like, ah, like, you know, you know, I mean, the one, one beacon of hope is factory right now. And, and, you know, what Nina and Lee Aquino is doing there and, and, uh, like, why is it so hard? I mean, the thing that sort of gets me is you look at the cast of the, you know, when I was growing up, the place, I always thought that I’m going to graduate from theater school and I will go to Stratford and maybe some Shaw. And, you know, those are the things that a kid, an Ontario actor as a kid will think that’s what they’re going to do.

And now I still think that those are some very white theaters and that they need, they could do better. Well, and, you know, Stratford did, uh, um, the Breathing Hole this year, which is, you know, amazing. We do a show with so, so much, uh, you know, Inuit representation and, uh, you know, not only off stage, but, you know, the director.

So, you know, it takes a while. It takes, I feel like it takes a long time. And it takes the audience to, you know, reward those shows by going to them.

Because it’s like, if the, you know, at the end of the day, theater is also a business and you know, if, if a show loses money, are the same risks going to be taken? And so, yeah, it’s a tough one. So I think when it comes to subtitling, I’m still like, I’m still fresh enough to it that I’ll translate anything. Of course.

Yeah. Well, you’ve got, you’re building up your, your portfolio with subtitling. Yeah, exactly.

Uh, and the word is, uh, you know, I mean, you know, like I’m translating a show that right now that’s a, it’s a one woman show written by a man and it’s a man writing, you know, uh, kind of a young adult or, uh, you know, I think the character is like maybe in their early twenties and writing her experience. And, and there’s parts of it that I kind of go, I roll. But, you know, but the poetry is still interesting and that the, you know, trying to translate and then, you know, maybe there’s an extra nuance in there where you’re like trying to translate some man’s thoughts, woman, trying to kind of give that some added authenticity.

So I don’t know. There’s a, uh, so yeah, with subtitling, I’m, I’m still, you know, I’ll try anything. Uh, you know, I’d probably transmit a cereal box if I was making it easy to steal.

Um, uh, but when it comes to theater, because, you know, I’m in my 20th year of it now, uh, I’m, I’m less inclined. And here’s the thing. Here’s, here’s the reason is because, because I’ve got the extreme privilege of having a paying 40 hour a week job that, you know, I don’t have to take a gig simply because it’s offered to me and because I’m worried about what’s going to come in the spring.

Like I remember those days and that’s a reality for, you know, especially in a city like Toronto, that you just have, you know, you have to have all the curtains that you can, you gotta, you know, be willing to, you know, do everything. Yeah. Uh, even the, you know, shitty paying jobs, uh, without, you know, voicing your concern or else they don’t hire you again.

Like it’s, um, you know, they’re, they’re, you know, of all the designs, I think, you know, costume design is still the one that gets paid the least. Right. Um, so I do really recognize my privilege in that.

I can be like, I’m not going to do this one because I don’t like the script. Right. You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, that’s the, that is the advantage to, to having the, the, the quote unquote day job.

But yeah. Meanwhile, I’m working on a day job, which is, you know, doing kids shows, which are simple. But they also serve, I mean, kids shows, I mean, in theory, they serve a great purpose.

They do. I mean, they’re, you know, and, and, you know, we have an educational mandate and, you know, your technology at the forefront of something. Um, but, but, but yeah, you know, I think there’s a bit of poetry missing in it, perhaps.

Well, yeah, I guess. But I’m lucky to have it. And you know, unfortunately I also work with really great people there, you know, I think that always helps.

You can do anything. Absolutely. Absolutely.

You can. Yeah. Well, Nina, thanks.

Thanks so much for talking with me today. This has been a lot of fun. It’s been a lot of fun.

Thanks a lot for having me.