The Seat Next to the King
Behind the door of a public washroom in a Washington, D.C. park, two lives linked to the country’s most influential figures collide when a white man seeking a sexual encounter meets a black male stranger. Winner of the 2017 Toronto Fringe FesIval New Play Contest, this bold, affecting piece tackles race, sex, the meaning of ‘manhood’, and the cost of reconciling each for two disparate human beings with a shared innate need. Featuring blistering performances by Kwaku Okyere and Conor Ling, The Seat Next To The King is directed by Tanisha Taitt.
The Seat Next to the King was the winner of the 2017 Toronto Fringe Festival New Play Contest
Tanisha Taitt – Director
Tanisha is a director/actor/playwright/arts educator/activist and accidental essayist. She has worked with Obsidian, NAC, The Musical Stage Company, Nightwood, BIBT and Soulpepper, and spent two seasons as a Resident Artist-Educator with YPT. Tanisha is a Drama mentor for tdsbCreates, a TDSB/TAC initiative that brings professional artists into classrooms to nurture artistic expression in students and teachers. She is an Anti-Oppression facilitator and Director of the Peace Camp program for Children’s Peace Theatre, an organization that teaches young people about conflict transformation through theatre. Also a singer and songsmith, she is a recipient of the Canadian Music Publishers Association Songwriters Award for excellence in songwriting. Tanisha spent 7 years as the Toronto and then the National producer for V-Day/One Billion Rising — the global movement to end violence against women and girls. In 2014, she founded Teenage Graceland, a youth theatre collective that challenges societal attitudes leading to gender-based violence. Tanisha was ‘Harolded’ in 2013 and in 2015, critic Lynn Slotkin bestowed upon her an inaugural “Tootsie” Award in the “They Can Do Anything” category. She is currently writing two musical theatrical works: FORCE, a musical about rape; and ERACED, which began when she heard the voices of unarmed dead black men singing to her in her sleep. Tanisha is the new co-host of The HUM Human Rights & the Arts podcast and will make her hosting debut this June. She is a two-time YWCA Woman of Distinction nominee for her commitment to artistic excellence and social justice.
Steven Elliott Jackson – Playwright
Steven Elliott Jackson was the recipient of the 2017 Best New Play at the Toronto Fringe for “The Seat Next To The King” and previously placed second in the contest in 2007 for “The State Of Tennessee”. He is the Artistic Director for Minmar Gaslight Productions as well as its family theatre company, 3 Little Bears Productions with his partner Todd Davies. Previous credits: Brothers And Arms (2010, Toronto Fringe Festival), The Dark Part Of The Snow (2011, Mount Marty College, Yankton, ND), Real Life Superhero (2012, Toronto Dance Theatre), The State Of Tennessee (2013, Theatre Passe Muraille), Rapunzel (adaptation, 2014, Toronto Kids Fringe/Stage Centre Productions), Threesome (2016, Red Sandcastle Theatre). Upcoming Productions: The Prince’s Big Adventure (Nov. 2017, Stage Centre Productions), A Question Of Character (Jan. 2017/ Stage Centre Productions), Real Life Superhero (Spring 2018, Brandon, MB) and currently he is developing Kick Start: Featuring the music of Lisa Loeb for a future reading.
Transcript
Transcript auto generated.
Phil Rickaby
Welcome to Episode 80 of Stageworthy. I’m your host Phil Rickaby Stageworthy features conversations in Canadian theatre with artists of all stripes drum actor director to play right and more. If you want to drop me a line, I’d love to hear from you. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter at stageworthypod. And you can find the website at Stageworthy podcast.com. We’re in the midst of Fringe Festival season and as I record this festivals in London, Ottawa and Montreal are in full swing and we’re heading towards the Toronto Fringe Festival. In the coming weeks, I’ll be sharing interviews with fringe artists from all over. You may have already heard my interviews with marine Gutierrez and Kaitlyn and Shawn from sex T Rex. But if you haven’t, I highly recommend going back and listening to them. You can find them and all past episodes of Stageworthy on Apple podcasts, Google music or whatever podcast app you use. My guest today are Tanisha Tate and Steven Elliot Jackson, the director and playwright respectively of the seat next to the king, the winner of the 2017 Toronto Fringe Festival New Play Contest.
Because in rehearsal already, or yes, yeah. How long have you been rehearsing?
Tanisha Taitt
We’ve had three so far. Okay. Okay. So
Phil Rickaby
just just really getting started just getting started. Yeah. Well, that’s, that’s, that’s good. It’s good. It’s, you know, it’s good to be compressed like that. So, and the seat next to the king, that is that one the playwright the playwriting contest.
Steven Elliott Jackson
Yeah, it won the Best New Play Contest in the Toronto fringe. So out of like 70 plays, it was selected, so.
Phil Rickaby
And that gives you a spot in the fringe. So you don’t have to go through that whole lottery thing.
Steven Elliott Jackson
Which is good, because I really, I’m really bad at the lottery. So I just have to write a really good play. And then I get in no pressure,
Phil Rickaby
because you know, everybody else just like, decide what they’re gonna do if they get in the lottery.
Steven Elliott Jackson
I want me is 700 entries.
Tanisha Taitt
About the lotteries that most people who apply don’t even have a play.
Phil Rickaby
I know. That is one thing that’s always annoyed me. Yeah, just as I always feel like there should be like two categories, people who don’t have a play yet. People who do those eight who do great, send us your scripts, oh, you’ve got a script, good. You can stay in this lottery, something like that.
Steven Elliott Jackson
And you can tell when people are writing the descriptions in the book, but they’re not quite so they do have a something going on. And I love reading these descriptions, because it’s like, I’m not sure they have something.
Phil Rickaby
The descriptions are always fun, because you could tell the people who like know what they’ve got. Yeah. And the people who were like, I don’t know, I just need to write a thing. Just a couple of sentences. It’s all I really need. Very much. So you guys know each other before this project?
Tanisha Taitt
No, no, actually, I was on the jury, okay, for the new Play Contest. And I had to read a whole swath of plays. And when I read Stevens, which was one, which was on our final shortlist of about 16. I just really loved it. And it was the only play that when I read it, I was still still thinking about it a few days after. And so when we had our final jury meeting and Stephens play one, his was the only play that all of the juries had ranked in their top three. Okay, I had right at first. And a couple of days after, I was just thinking, I really love this play. Like I don’t just want to be a juror I want to be involved in this play. Yeah. And so I called called my friend Lucy, who’s the GM of the fringe. And I said, Lucy, I’ve been thinking about this, play that one. And I think I want to direct it. Can you give me Steven’s phone number or his email address or something because I want to talk to him. And she’s like, sure, like, go ahead. And so I got in touch with him. I told him that I love to play. And then we just agreed to have a meeting. And we met and got along really well. And at the time, at the time of the meeting, I still didn’t know if he was gonna let me do it though. I was just pitching.
Phil Rickaby
Is the jury selection process that blind you don’t know who the author is?
Tanisha Taitt
You don’t know. You have no clue. Okay. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby
And I guess you only find out when, like, they announced who want
Tanisha Taitt
you only find out when they when you pick the name of the play. That’s one. They say okay, this play is by Steven Jackson.
Phil Rickaby
Nice. Yeah, it’s good. And how often like is this how many players have you directed before?
Tanisha Taitt
I’ve directed 23 productions of 17 plays. So there have been some rebounds. That’s
Phil Rickaby
that’s a that’s an impressive number. It’s a lot Can we I’d love to talk to you about your, the work that you’ve done previous to this, like, is there like if somebody says, What’s the play that your favourite play that you’ve directed? Can you name one? Or? I mean, there’s like 23 Productions. That’s difficult, except that team plays it’s a difficult thing to do. But I’m just curious, like, what would be your calling card?
Tanisha Taitt
Calling Card holy, that’s hard. No, that really is hard, because every play I have such a different and unique experience with
Steven Elliott Jackson
and some are ones that you’ve written as well.
Tanisha Taitt
Yeah. And couple, although I’ve never directed my own place. Interesting. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby
I don’t think I would do it. I wouldn’t direct.
Tanisha Taitt
I mean, I would I would love to at some point. It’s just that the first two plays I wrote, I was, I mean, being such a neophyte playwright, I just didn’t feel that the first play that I ever wrote, I was in, and I think actually part of playwriting. Sorry, I’m totally digressing from your question. But part of playwriting for me is that being an actor, and I’m an actor, it gives you an opportunity to write roles for yourself, that you would love to play when you’re not, you know, doing a lot of acting. And yeah, when I’m in something, I have no interest, obviously, in trying to be in it and directed at the same time. So I’ve always hired directors that, that I think would serve the piece well.
Phil Rickaby
Is there a play that you can think of? It’s like, if somebody says, you know, which one is your calling card? Is there? Is there one or if there’s not, that’s okay. Because there’s so diverse that that it’d be hard to name one.
Tanisha Taitt
I need to I honestly need to think about that more. I drafted a play a few years ago, and the author’s name the playwrights name to split my head called the White Rose, which I loved. I don’t know if you know the story of the white rose. But
Phil Rickaby
the World War? Yep. The World War Two, right? Yes. And
Tanisha Taitt
we’re one of my heroes, and it was amazing. It was for five young Aryan students. No, it was horrible to watch. Because five young Aryan students who were very kind of covertly trying to topple the Third Reich, by spreading by printing and spreading pamphlets about what Hitler was up to. And they were doing it on very much on the down low, and they were caught. And they were all guillotined. And it was 544 men and one woman named Sophie Shoal.
Steven Elliott Jackson
Oh, I first saw the show. Yeah. And she was
Tanisha Taitt
just this incredible, fierce woman who was given the opportunity to be released, and she refused to be relieved, and she stayed and died with her brother. It was it that was a really, really powerful and beautiful show to do. And I think it was probably the most challenging show that I’ve done. But up until that point, and just kind of the furthest removed from what I had done up until that point, is there a particular
Phil Rickaby
like, what was the most challenging about that? Um,
Tanisha Taitt
it was the first show that I had done centred around real people. So whenever you’re telling a historical story, there’s so much you just feel so just that such a sense of obligation to get it right. And I think it was the play that I did that had the most people that were unlike me, because I had to go and hire a cast of like, seven very area and looking then. And that was really interesting. That ended up being like one of the sweetest casts I’ve ever worked with. But yeah, I think knowing that there were people that were alive still, that new Sophie story. definitely made me feel a sense of pressure to not screw it up.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, yeah. In terms of the display next to the king, where does that? So where does the title come from? And what’s the play of it?
Steven Elliott Jackson
Well, it’s interesting with the title because it actually came in almost before I finished the play. Also, this title that popped in my head. The play is about it said 1964. It’s about about a white man who walks into a public washroom in in Washington, DC Park. And the next man who happens to come in is a black man, and they’re both they’re looking for sex. And so when I first had the idea that it was actually, I knew about Bayard Rustin. For years. I remember watching a documentary and learning about him going, wow, why do I not know more about this man, and I just kind of kept searching and searching and he was the easier one to find. But then all sudden, the white gentleman whose name is Walter Jenkins, was someone who can totally escape me and I actually only ran across him, either it was, I think, was like an advocate article where they talked about these gay scandals and politics, and I ran across and I went, how fascinating that the two most powerful men in America 19 said See for Martha King, and President Johnson had either gay or questioning men, right next to them the entire way. And so and not in just like small roles. They’re big. And for Walter, I mean, he’d known renewal but him too much. But until he got caught in Washington, Skinner himself, the bear, everyone knew. And he just kind of kept being pushed back, push back. And so when I thought with the concept of this play, I thought, you know, I talked to the actors and stuff and said, The i One of the ideas that I’m thinking about was meeting in the White House, well, that’d be kind of fun. That’d be kind of fun. But the problem is being in the White House is that there’s the have the conversation they need they need to have, where are they going to have this like, this, this is a building was probably wired. Like we learned that from Nixon later, all the recordings and such, but, but to have them actually be in a place where they have this commonality, because they both have been caught in scandals of some sort, involving the washroom and illicit sex and stuff like that. So they both had had the experience. And it’s a very shared experience, despite the fact that they’re very two different people. So
Tanisha Taitt
I was really drawn to the fact that Steven created this really amazing what if scenario, because finding out that Bayard Rustin had at one point out of washroom scandal, Walter had, at one point had a washroom scandal completely removed from each other. And for Steven to say, well, what if they were in the washroom together was just really fascinating to me. And yeah, and I just I love I love how beautifully it’s, it’s written.
Steven Elliott Jackson
And I love what if scenarios, because I’m always thinking, like, I love when you read a history book, and they talk about another character, and you read another history book, and they talk about the same character, and you read another one, they talk about syncope. But that character is so unknown to most people. Another play I’m thinking about doing that is this Senator Ron, I’ve, I read three different history books, talking about the same person in each of the books. Why don’t I know this person? And so I love the idea of bringing out characters who we don’t know like, and I think we should know, like, Walter, probably a little less so just because, I mean, while he had a position of power, to some degree being next to Johnson, that’s kind of a different story. But Baird is someone we should know. Yeah, we we should. There should be no reason why we shouldn’t know who he is. Yeah,
Tanisha Taitt
I mean, he organised many of the rallies, he gave MLK places to speak, he kind of controlled his agenda. And yet, he’s the most part I’ve known. And he
Steven Elliott Jackson
inspired the whole idea of nonviolent confrontation in he was doing it like 20 years before Martin Luther King was doing it. But polar bear it was, besides the fact of being gay himself. The other problem was that he got caught almost in between political movements, I would say, you have this we have a strong late 50s 60s civil rights movement going on. But the World War Two era, we don’t have the same because people are so focused on the war. They weren’t there. But then before that, you have like Dubois and all that. So he got caught in this, like in between place. And he was also the idea that he was very centred on the peace movement, as part of the civil rights movement was something that was a little hard for people to kind of grasp on.
Phil Rickaby
You mean in terms of, like, general peace in the way that Martin Luther King’s message shifted over time to include like, pulling out of the Vietnam War?
Steven Elliott Jackson
Yeah, yeah. Baird was very much involved in the, in the, in the Vietnam conflict in South Sudan, and trying to find a way of getting out of that sort of thing. But it was such a volatile period of time. I mean, we have no concept of I don’t think, what a volatile was,
Tanisha Taitt
I mean, it was incredibly volatile. And because of just the the horror of what people were experiencing, the idea of committing to kind of what people saw as being passivity, as opposed to just to peacefulness was was really difficult. And so and so the majority of people, not the majority, but many, many people before you had the policy, you know, the philosophy of non violence really come to the fore, were much more aligned to the thinking of Malcolm X, which was more like we’ve got to take hours and no matter what we have to do, we have to do it. And so the idea of trying to pursue the same ends with no violence when so much violence was being perpetrated, was a very hard thing for people to wrap their heads around.
Steven Elliott Jackson
And the sheer threat of like, when when your major leaders of your movement are being assassinated after another, like the fear in the eye, you can’t it’s just my world. I can imagine it I just can’t imagine why anyone bear kind of stuck his nose in there as much as he could. But poly path, almost sexuality was always a hindrance. In fact, fortunately, back
Phil Rickaby
later was out or was he an LSU couldn’t be
Steven Elliott Jackson
free. is your I think you’re way ahead out as you could be. I think that’s the phrase because I mean, we have to remember that when he was doing all this, everyone knew he was the FBI knew everyone knew. But it was still, it’s still considered an illness, it was still considered an offence in every state, it was still concerned saying you can be locked away for so he was out as I think he could have been without it, you know, without actually saying I’m gay. And that’s what I am. But I mean, he did later, obviously, you know, when the, that movement moved along, to kind of sort of catch up to where we’re going, then he could say that type thing much easier. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby
There’s a certain I mean, you were you were talking just a little while ago about the responsibility of telling stories that involve real people. And here you have two real people. Who are there who there’s living memory of both of them, maybe they’re not well known, but there is loving memory is their responsibility that either of you feel in telling this particular imaginary story,
Steven Elliott Jackson
every second of writing it every second Friday? And because, and, you know, it’s, it’s, for me, it’s like hearing two characters who, I mean, Baird especially was a challenge for me, because I had to really think about how how people get portrayed, see this, I’m not black, you know, I mean, no, no. And so therefore, I’m writing character, who is so predominant in that movement. And it’s like, but I think what it is for a writer who it’s, I remember telling Tanisha, this early on, it’s bridging gaps, bridging, like the borders, like bridging all those things. And that’s why I love to write this piece, because it gave me a chance to really learn and hopefully get better and standing these characters. And for Walter, it was a chance to kind of I, I’m a big fan of those films from the 1960s at the anthems have gay themes in them because they couldn’t say anything about. They couldn’t say the words, but they had to tell a story without saying the words. And for Walter, it was so nice to kind of have a character like that, who if he’d be in that time period, couldn’t have never expressed those words. It was nice, just given those words and give him a chance actually speak for himself. Yeah,
Tanisha Taitt
I love the combination of us. And and this play for a lot of reasons. I’m not gay, Stephen is I’m Stephens not black. I am. So we had the in one of us having the orientation, one of us having the race. It’s also a story of two men, trying to figure out what it is to be men in a time when the the definition of men is very limited. Yes. And so I loved the idea of bringing a woman to the table and not injecting more male energy into the telling of the story. No, I really did. Yeah, I really did.
Steven Elliott Jackson
And I remember mentioning with the first time that I said, the reason, you know, yes, you are a young black woman, but I’m not using an essay ProQuest your blog, I’m talking, I’m choosing you because you haven’t experienced that I will never have that you will have what once every 20 minutes, maybe every half hour, I’ll give you an hour just in case you’re on the subject. But you know, but she has experience I’m not going to have, and that’s an experience that bear was gonna have, and I can write it, I can write to a point. But there’s a point where someone when Tasha as a director is gonna come in there and find something that that little bit deeper that I will never hear because I won’t have the experience.
Tanisha Taitt
And, and vice versa. Like, there will be moments when I may have questions about the gay aspect, where I’m like, Steven, I need you for this. Right. And we also have two actors, one of whom is gay and one of whom is not. Which is so fascinating. No, it’s, it’s really, really exciting. Just to see how it, to see how it plays out, and to see how, how those two very different life experiences come together. And the telling of the story, just even so far into two days has been has been exciting.
Steven Elliott Jackson
Well, it’s challenging for them is and they they’re learning from each other, which I think is beautiful. So Connor is learning like, you know, what am I doing that might be you know, how to some portray me as being gay, like that sort of aspect of it. But for for for Kwaku. It’s an it’s a different aspect altogether. Like it is a different look at each other and how to see each other. And how’s it to be, like, closed? Like we live in a day and age, we’re very fortunate that we can mostly be open about our sexuality. Mostly not saying all the time, but but we’re very lucky in that sense. And so to see another actor learning how to be a closeted man can be very challenging, too. Yeah, it’s quite a connection they’re having together. Yeah,
Tanisha Taitt
no, they’re great together.
Phil Rickaby
That’s good. If I can ask for both of you, because I always like to find out why people chose to do Things in the theatre. Like,
Tanisha Taitt
we are asking the same question.
Steven Elliott Jackson
I mean, we all ask it’s the money of course.
Phil Rickaby
Of course, you know, because the elites and the money and the thing.
Tanisha Taitt
Money is falling on the floor. Oh,
Phil Rickaby
I mean, I’m always curious. And you know, we don’t often ask each other, like, why did you choose to do this? So I’m curious. Whoever wants to go first. Like, what? What is it about the theatre that you love? Why did you start doing it? How did you start doing?
Steven Elliott Jackson
Your gaming? Okay, go first. Okay. So I didn’t grow up on Theatre, which is fast. I, I come from a really small community in Manitoba, 100 people, there’s no theatre. And I remember one day, we had a discussion about our I was on a Facebook thing where about Shakespeare being taught in schools. And I, you mentioned that it was to be taught in drama class, that’s where it should be. And I had to say, if you have dropped the class, because I didn’t, I did have a drama class. I wouldn’t have to have gone after school forever. And my parents picked me up every day and never worked. But for me, writing was, um, I started kept connect on I loved reading people’s words. More. I think that’s because often, we don’t get to hear like, especially with history, especially I love history, someone asked me once, why not historian, but what I like about theatre is that I get to write people’s words that wouldn’t normally get the speaking sometimes. And to hopefully find those words and I’m learning that more as I go along. I did do theatre in university and such, and the playwriting was really something was I want to just write characters. I loved writing characters
Phil Rickaby
when you were in university. Were you there for playwriting? Or were you sort of both?
Steven Elliott Jackson
I didn’t, I stupidly tried to do a double major in film and theatre. Never do a double major in film theatre I discovered because you end up doing like three film productions and like four theatre productions in the same semester as like, it’s yeah, it’s wild. The playwriting was just I ran a play when I was in university early on. Just for fun articles like a general theatre course I realised just how much I loved it. I realised I’d gone back and looked at stuff I’d done in high school and realised I like Britain scenes, but never wrote full out plays. I just read these little scenes. And I kept reading books. I tried to find those stories in between the books, like what were the conversations they would have had? So I just I just love the immediacy of theatre. I love the organic nature, you can watch something and see it two different ways with three different ways each time you go. I love that.
Phil Rickaby
As somebody who didn’t grow up with theatre, and I’m curious about what made you decide to go to university for theatre.
Steven Elliott Jackson
I didn’t originally I actually started in music, okay. I started I know, it’s free. I went to all the fine arts, I swear, I started, I started the music. I realised I would hate music. If I kept doing music. I went into general studies, I had done a documentary film in high school. And people really loved my documentary. And I was like, oh, okay, maybe I should go into film. So when the film, and then I discovered that while the only way to do film in university was to actually do more theatre, because you had to know all the actors. What’s true, I mean, but then when I went into theatre, the theatre section, it was just the hands on approach. It was less about tech, per se. I mean, there’s art is tech and theatre, obviously. But there was something about being more hands on I loved that. I remember one, one experience I had was directing a film, and my camera person was getting mad at me. Because I wouldn’t tell him to start taping. I kept saying, No, I need to talk to the actors. First, we need to talk about what’s going on the scene there. They said, No, just film it like 15 times we’ll figure it out. Am I going? And I’m like, yeah, no, you know, it’s like, when I’m running a story or play, it’s like, I’m with those characters. I’m living with those characters and they don’t leave. Like that’s the weird thing when your brain plays, they don’t leave, they’re there. And that’s what I love with theatre that you aren’t constant living with them. Once they’re once they’re filmed and once they’re like that, that it’s it’s recorded. It’s done. Yeah, the theatre and plays they can be done so many different ways. I love that. That’s,
Phil Rickaby
that’s very true. A movie only gets filmed once in a play can be was performed many times and interpreted many times. Yeah. What’s your what’s your theatre story?
Tanisha Taitt
So I didn’t start in theatre either. I but I’ve always been very much an artist. I began writing very young writing poetry. As a child, I love to dance. I studied Afro jazz for a little while. And then when I got to university, I began studying broadcasting. I was very interested in studying radio and television. And because I was interested in being like a broadcast journalist that didn’t last long Although I’m still fascinated with journalism and good journalism versus bad journalism, and then, but music was always my my love. So I’ve started singing very nice started songwriting. I’m very young. And I was a singer songwriter for years and years from the time I was 14, I was in my room writing songs. And that was my main love. I ended up going to a school called the Harris Institute. And I studied audio engineering and business and music business. And I really was planning to be recording artists, that was my thing. And then I had some weird experiences with a&r people. And, and that whole time that I was performing and playing like coffee houses and stuff, I was so full, I was falling so deeply in love with performance. And I think that theatre kind of became a very natural extension of that. It’s like, when you’re an artist, you’re always looking for another way to express yourself. And so I was spending years on stages singing songs. And I was like, Well, what if I told stories that were longer than three or four minutes long? Like, you know, because I had loved writing short stories as a kid. I was like, what if I just, you know, come back to being at a desk writing that has nothing to do with music, just telling stories. And that’s kind of how I started playing around with writing plays. And then, because I’ve been performing on stage and felt really comfortable on stage as a singer. One day, I very randomly auditioned for a play. There was like a audition posted in now or something. And I it was the Vagina Monologues. And I showed up to this audition, trashed the audition. People are like, Why are you here? And I did the audition, and I got it. And that changed the trajectory of my life. Because after I got it, and that play is very much tied to a movement called V Day, which is an anti violence against women’s movement. The year after I joined it as an actor, I took over as producer and ended up doing activist theatre for about eight years. And several plays, that were tied to the day. And then thought I should probably study so then I would. But I was torn because I was working full time. At this point. I was like I was a grown up. And I was like, how am I going to study and Seneca College, God bless them had the only continuing education theatre programme in the country. And I was able to work full time and go to theatre school at night. And, yeah, programme doesn’t exist anymore. Of course not No, no, it folded about three years ago. But it was amazing. And I don’t know how I did it. I have energy then. But that was it. So by the time I finished that, I was like kind of like, okay, theatre is I’m not done with music, I will always make music. But theatre is really kind of the course that I think I’m on at this point. And just continued acting and acting naturally lead to directing, and I absolutely love it.
Phil Rickaby
I love how people, some people know from the beginning that it’s what they’re going to do. But I’m always fascinated by the people who took like, went in one direction. And then like, suddenly, they were going down a different path. Yeah, I love those stories.
Steven Elliott Jackson
Why, like do I hear that was like, you know, there’s, there’s a, there’s a moment where also you realise that’s what I need to be doing. And particular took a while for me it was to this contest. I actually came in second 10 years ago in this context. And that was this moment where I went, Oh, someone likes what I wrote. And that was that moment. And that’s when I start to write really unabashedly in the Start kept writing anything and writing things. So I want to hear about that moment.
Phil Rickaby
As a as a fellow history nerd. Is there is there a particular period in history that you gravitate to? Are you just like, you’re hungry for history?
Steven Elliott Jackson
I’m a huge US presidential buff, I’m it’s embarrassing, actually. So I like Theodore Roosevelt is just is just like the king to me, because I’ve actually gone on a tour. I went on tour of his birthplace in New York City. And I sort of took over the tour. What happened was, was that the tour guide to talk about stuff and someone there’s a eight Americans on the tour with me, and they would ask question, he’d go, oh, I don’t really know that and like the first was like his kids. And like I said to him, I said, Oh, actually, it’s you know, Alice theatre Jr, Kermit Ethel Archbold. Quinton. What? Just like that, and he’s like, Oh, thank you very much. Yeah. And then you ask them a question. And they didn’t know the answer. And I answered the question. And by the end of it, they would listen to him. And they would look at me asking the questions, and I’m like, oh, that’s always been fascinated by US president since I was like, 10. Seriously, my parents bought us the World Book, encyclopaedias and the only parts of World Book encyclopaedia there in colour are the US presidents. And I just fell in love I was released and you know, and then quickly Lorenzo sort of lives presidents and that’s where I love hearing the stories that you just don’t get to hear about and I love going to sites, because they’ll tell you like no matter how long that person was in office, like 30 days, 200 days, eight years. that President is the best president that ever lived. And I love that and I love how they gloss over stuff. Yeah. Have you ever been ever been in Mount Vernon? I have not. Seven years ago, they finally acknowledged that he had slaves on the mountain. Vernon tour. Did it seven years. Not either too. Horrible. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby
So they the that tour, they had never brought up the fact that he had slaves.
Steven Elliott Jackson
No, no. They were slave quarter. And I imagine they would just kind of look at the barn and walk down.
Tanisha Taitt
That’s where the help lived. Yeah.
Steven Elliott Jackson
And even now, they preface everything with, but he freed his slaves, but he freed his slaves. And I find answers it. You mean he intentionally gave freedom to his slaves? And they said, Well, no, he died. And I’m giving freedom to slaves means that there’s an intention of realising this person and he’s a human being I should offer them their freedom. I don’t know. Like, no he does.
Phil Rickaby
There’s there’s interesting things about being Canadian, and watching America and one of the things that I am fascinated by and sometimes a little jealous of is their ability to mythologize and lie to themselves Canadians are really bad at lying to themselves. Well, I
Tanisha Taitt
would I would argue that
Phil Rickaby
please, I will be.
Tanisha Taitt
I mean, as I as we approach Canada when 50 We are steeped in lies.
Phil Rickaby
No, that’s true. I stand corrected. I were bad at mythologizing. Yeah, no, we are we are we can lie to ourselves, but we’re bad at building like grand.
Tanisha Taitt
Oh, grandiosity. And yeah, those kinds of realistic right there’s no
Phil Rickaby
Sir John A Macdonald never told like, yeah, sir. John a was a drunk. And we knew it. And we everybody knows about it. My favourite my favourite John a story is like he was drunk and doing a bit of debate. It’s his turn to talk. He leans over the podium and throws up on the floor and his responses, ladies and gentlemen, every time I hear my opponents speak, I get sick to my stomach.
Steven Elliott Jackson
He was an abstract charismatic man. Yeah, that sense? I mean, all those feelings. Yeah. so charismatic.
Phil Rickaby
We’re bad at that kind of like grand mythology. Yeah.
Steven Elliott Jackson
It’s probably why we don’t have you know, as Canadians. I mean, we have some great playwrights. But history is a huge problem for us. We’re running plays like I don’t know what it is. It’s really hard. It’s a lot of times
Phil Rickaby
when we try to do history plays, we’re very literal. I don’t think that we because we don’t mythologize. We’re bad at lying in this story, like were we sort of like, follow a little too closely. Whereas Americans are like, sure, whatever. Or, you know, they’re like, they’re a little more flexible, as long as it builds that mythology.
Steven Elliott Jackson
Oh, yeah. No, I mean, yeah.
Phil Rickaby
So very many sad things about watching America as it is. The problem is that America imploding affects us directly, because as America implodes, it’s garbage infects everyone. Yes.
Steven Elliott Jackson
It was not Yeah, it’s amazing. We may be connected on the border, but it’s affecting every single nation this
Tanisha Taitt
world Yeah. Have you cannot have a country that has that yields that kind of power implode and not have it affect planets.
Phil Rickaby
No, no, no, that’s, that’s one of the best arguments for not having a superpower. Yeah. But again, we’re digressing from
Tanisha Taitt
Yes. Presidential sorry.
Steven Elliott Jackson
I have a Greg Lincoln play, but with him being gay in it that I Oh, I Oh, yeah. No, no, it’s it’s he slept with a number of guys. Okay, I’m a Santa.
Phil Rickaby
Do you have? Are there things about as we live in Canada and the Canadian historical things? Are you very much like American presidents.
Steven Elliott Jackson
As your thing? No, I actually, the one plan I’m working on is a play but the Fenian rates 86. And it seemed very personal to me, because my great great grandfather fought in it. And so it’s saying I, I’m starting to try to dive into the more Canadian history and get some better aspects of what makes us us. But, again, there’s so many dark periods that we don’t know how to we don’t say hi to per se, we still but we just don’t talk about in the same right way. Yeah, it’s hard to explain. It’s like it’s you know, with with with the states, they really try to hide things. Like they really hide the bad things really badly.
Tanisha Taitt
But with us, I don’t know I think the states we both have tonnes of crap to want to hide. I think the knowledge of what is horrible in the States is much more or much more overt than the knowledge of what is horrible in Canada. I mean, I’m My dad, you know, my parents, my father moved here in 1967 and said that, you know, he would he would rather after having lived here for a couple of years, he would rather have had the bleakness of American racism than the subtlety of Canadian because Canadian
Phil Rickaby
racism is very, we don’t look at it. Yeah, like, American racism is in your face, and Canadians just don’t see it. Yeah. We just like to white Canadians like to not like we’re very good at ignoring things, like residential schools, like racism, like direct racism against people of colour, that’s something we’re very good at just not looking at. Yeah. So and, you know, I think that’s another thing that we don’t tend to acknowledge in our theatre. Again, our histories are mostly told by white men. And so the history books talk about the white man. And so we don’t, there are stories that we’re missing, because they just weren’t written down, or they’re passed down orally and in other ways, and they don’t get to be onstage or in on our TVs, or whatever.
Tanisha Taitt
And because whoever tells stories, almost always tell stories that make themselves look best in the story. And centre them and centre themselves in the store. Absolutely. So until you start getting stories that are written from multiple other perspectives, everything is going to be a very skewed version of history.
Phil Rickaby
That’s really one of my favourite historical books is actually an account of the Upper Canada rebellion, but it is not. It is told through diary excerpts surrounding it. So it’s like, instead of like one book, because we use we have like, two perspectives generally, in most of the history, history books, it’s like, the, like, what actual people were thinking at the time. And so, now that we’ve we’ve talked around a lot of topics, the the seat next to the cam, as you are, you’ve done how do you three rehearsals so far? You are, do you know what venue, you have?
Tanisha Taitt
Theatre past Mariah mainspace
Phil Rickaby
Awesome. That’s a great space. It’s a great space.
Steven Elliott Jackson
It’s not only is it like a wonderful size of space, it doesn’t feel massive, but still hasn’t quite number of seats in it. But it’s also really close to the friend venue, too. So there’s a neat personality just has
Tanisha Taitt
a lot of character, that space. I’ve always love that space. Heater passwords are great, like the backspace and the main space are awesome.
Phil Rickaby
They if you use the right use of the backspace, right, you can do amazing. And the main space has so much something about a lot of
Tanisha Taitt
grit a lot of character
Steven Elliott Jackson
to it. It’s also great theatre company too. And I mean, they they’re really trying to break down some walls in theatre there. And that’s one theatre. That’s what
Tanisha Taitt
their name means. Yeah, exactly.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, exactly. That works out. Well.
Steven Elliott Jackson
Yeah, by me, but it is it’s like compared to other theatres in the city who are trying, yeah, they are doing it.
Phil Rickaby
And you’re right. I was thinking this year, it is like, because of the new fringe venue. It is like, it’s the closest of the venues to that, which is really great. Yeah, it’s nice. It’s a really great firing location. Right down there. And then back here for a beer you guys. Or you know,
Steven Elliott Jackson
I used to work the ticket booth. And there’s always that couple who comes and goes. What’s playing close by 50 minutes from now? Like, yeah. Theatre passing? Yeah. So yeah,
Phil Rickaby
it’s good. But the honest space, it was whatever was at the annex and
Tanisha Taitt
the Randolph Yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s different to see it move. I’m really interested in seeing how the hub works in this new space.
Phil Rickaby
I’m really interested to know because you fall into patterns. There’s a certain pattern that we followed at TranzAct when Yes, when was their
Tanisha Taitt
transit dance party?
Steven Elliott Jackson
Oh, great. Everybody outside
Phil Rickaby
of them. 11 o’clock, everybody out of it inside. Residential and then all of the move over to EDS. And the vibe changes and and and something happened in the first year where they sort of like moving like a van with like, baffles on it. And like, closed in like the the area for drinking because Oh, yeah. Around there. So like every event every every area changes. I think this is their biggest one. This year, I think
Tanisha Taitt
yeah. The space that the space that they’ve allotted to the to the tenant is huge was a parking kind of law. Tennis Court thing, and there’s a lot going on there this
Phil Rickaby
in the first year at least I think that they’re doing this I heard that they they have like an artist area. Oh, I’d heard I’d heard that. That was something they were they were going to do which is I think something that a number of other fringes have done Montreal had their friend’s office they had you know, drop in, they actually had like, you know, people you could walk in and the artists that had coffee snacks, and places to sit. Some people would sleep something People would do stuff fly, like do their flowering and like gets them ready.
Tanisha Taitt
I love the idea of having artists from the shows just kind of hang out and be available to talk to people. I love that. I love that idea.
Phil Rickaby
You don’t have to worry about like selling your show people because that’s always the problem with the fringe stunt is you want to talk to your fellow artists, but you’re also concentrating on like, selling your show. So it’s like this strange, like, I want to talk to you, but come to my show. Yeah. shake your hand one and hand out your flyer with the other. It’s like, so awkward. It’s great to have like this spot where we can just hang out and be Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know Edmonton has had like a, they call it the greenroom. But it’s like a spot where people can hang out and get ready for their show and then head off to the venue. So it’s like, we great to see that kind of thing happening here. And be awesome. What is there is there something that you’re particularly looking forward to about about fringe this year,
Tanisha Taitt
I’m just excited to be back at Fringe, I haven’t done fringe since 2010. I did it in eight, nine and 10. And then back in 17. So to actually be part of it, as opposed to just an audience member is going to be fun. It’s an energy that I have been away from for a while.
Steven Elliott Jackson
I think for me what it is, is like, you know, as an artist, you know, you’re constantly renting a venue, you’re doing your own thing, right. And this thing, it’s everything’s kind of set up for me right now for the for us to have this show. And that the potential of an audience coming into the show is that different than let’s say, if I just rented like the red sandcastle theatre, I get like, oh, man, I might get 30 people and like, this actually has a chance, like, actually getting seen by a lot of people. And that’s really quite exciting. It’s scary.
Phil Rickaby
But exciting I love about fringe is that, you know, as an independent producer, it’s the time when there are people looking for something to see. Like it’s a concentrated 10 day period, where there’s an audience, there’s just wants to know what they should see. And they’re out willing to see it. Whereas it other times, like if you rent in the red sandcastle theatre, getting your audience out, can be difficult, because you have to get them off their couch, where is doing fringe, they’re hungry.
Steven Elliott Jackson
They’re active. Yeah. And
Tanisha Taitt
I’m so excited. I mean, having won the award, I think is a really wonderful, wonderful thing, because I think that that will just there’ll be a natural curiosity to see what that play is about. And, and I don’t think that they will be disappointed in the play. Because I think that it really is a very poignant story. And what I love about it is how simple it is. And sometimes people, you know, they searched the word simple, I love simple as opposed to, as opposed to simplistic, which I find is a different thing. But there’s the place is very simple. It’s two men, who are both kind of dealing with a very innate need that isn’t really allowed to be in that time and place and trying to negotiate it, you know, and that’s, and that’s all it is. And yet, there’s so much that happens. And there’s so much emotion in it. And it’s it’s funny, and it’s sexy, and it’s heartbreaking. And it’s it is all of those things. And yeah, I’m just really happy to be able to spend to spend this time with it.
Steven Elliott Jackson
i For me, I just happen to have, you know, a director who is ridiculously passionate about a show like this. I mean, that’s when I first when Tasha emailed me about directing the show, it was just the idea of, Wow, this director is really passionate, like really passionate, that she cares so much about this piece. And because I never I met her, I told her I said Lily, I had one person read it beforehand, and it was someone who wasn’t very passionate. And it’s and I felt a passion for it. But it’s nice to have someone who has equal passion for and that makes a big difference and everyone like our stage manager to actors, everyone’s really putting everything into this. My partner’s when we’re talking about building power set, and it’s like everyone’s really wanting to make this show this really simple. So it is something that can be quite an experience for people to see. I think it’s amazing.
Phil Rickaby
Have you given any thought to directors when you submitted this play? Or were you just like I’ll put submitted and I’ll worry about production when it
Steven Elliott Jackson
Why didn’t I well first I’m it’s again, I feel horrible to say this but I literally put the plane like three days before the entry date. And I because I want one more 10 years previously second place I looked at I said oh yeah, I had like nine characters on it. Oh, I really liked this piece. I’m just gonna put it in. And because I don’t have any illusions to you know that oh, this is a great piece it’s gonna unite the nation type of thing you know that it was a reading and going this is very simple. It’s outside my boundary a little bit and I loved it. and I love doing it. And I remember writing it in four days, like, they were like, it came so easily when you know, sometimes you break peace and it gets to be a struggle. This was never a struggle. It was just a very again, civil peace to men just facing something together. And I think, you know, that’s simplicity, as well simplicity of facts, that scenario. And but the depth you can get into those characters. I remember just knowing I think this would be such an enter, especially to enter, but I had no illusions I was going to do you never know. But 70 plays in this contest, you know, and there’s some great writers out in this reason when playwrights in this city right now, like, it’s incredible, and you don’t know who’s gonna be in the contest. So you just kind of you hope you’re
Phil Rickaby
I mean, as far as, you know, winning that particular like the best play. Yeah, you’re you’re up there with some great playwrights like Kat Sandler. And it’s Troy, you know, there’s, there’s been some success that comes out of out of that particular
Steven Elliott Jackson
award. Well, and I’m not, you know, I had the great fortune of seeing kind of from the outside observing perspective, that that was in his choice. Because I was actually stage managing a show at the random theatre at the same time, and watching these crowds lining up to the door and going, well, we’re not gonna get the patrons back. But, exactly, but what I did remember seeing was I saw an audience who was so hungry for a show that they can relate to. And I said that you’re a smart man, you are a very smart man, you found something, you found something, and it doesn’t happen all the time. You know, and I again, I don’t want to illusions that oh, that’s, you know, movies and no Broadway and all that sort of thing. That’s not what it is. It’s, you know, it’s being able to play out that people can really fall in love with and understand and just feel something by the end of the night that I want. I want to feel something, feel something about the other night. Yeah, yeah, my
Tanisha Taitt
goal. I mean, my goal with directing always is to try and nurture empathy. And so if there was someone in that room, who might have, you know, not even overtly homophobic tendencies, but might just not be as open to the reality of the breadth of people that exist. If they can leave a little bit more open than to me, I’ve done my job.
Phil Rickaby
Well, that’s a great note to finish on. Thank you so much, both of you. Thank you. Thank you very much.