Luke Reece

Luke Reece is a storyteller, community builder, and artist-educator from Mississauga. He loves engaging with young-in-craft artists that are as diverse as the community he lives in. Luke is the Apprentice General Manager and a Resident Artist-Educator at Young People’s Theatre, Artistic Director of Little Black Afro Theatre, co-creator of Dark Nights, captain of the 2017 Toronto Poetry Slam Team, and previously the Associate General Manager of Obsidian Theatre Company. He has a Bachelor of Arts Honours Degree from York University, where he studied Theatre and Creative writing.

Twitter: @lareece93
Instagram: lareece93

www.littleblackafro.com
Twitter: @littleblackafro
Instagram: littleblackafro

www.darknights.ca
@darknightsTO
darknightsTO

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Transcript

[Phil Rickaby]
Welcome to Episode 74 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast featuring conversations in Canadian theatre with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.

If you want to drop me a line to tell me what you think, or to suggest somebody I should really talk to, you can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter at StageworthyPod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. If you like the podcast, I hope you’ll consider leaving a comment or rating on Apple Podcasts or Google Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Ratings and comments really help people find Stageworthy.

My guest, Luke Reece, is a storyteller, community builder, and artist educator. Luke is the Apprentice General Manager and Resident Artist Educator at Young People’s Theatre, co-creator of Dark Nights, captain of the 2017 Toronto Poetry Slam team, and was the Associate General Manager of Obsidian Theatre Company. Luke is also the Artistic Director of Little Black Afro Theatre.

Little Black Afro is currently seeking proposals for its emerging artist program for 2017. You can find details at littleblackafro.com. What are you doing at Young People’s Theatre?

[Luke Reece]
I’m doing a Metcalfe Internship. Okay. I’m doing it in General Management, so I’m working there with Nick Tracy, their Associate General Manager, and Nancy Webster, their Executive Director.

[Phil Rickaby]
Okay. Is arts administration something you’re interested in, or is it a means to an end?

[Luke Reece]
No, I think it’s definitely something I’m interested in. I’m slowly discovering more and more how much I like it, but also what parts I like and what parts I don’t like. I think it started administration because I just started producing my own work, and then I just had to know how this stuff was going to happen.

[Phil Rickaby]
That’s what happens.

[Luke Reece]
Right? It’s like, well, I guess I have to do this, so I need to learn how to to do contracts and how to manage a budget and make sure we are aware of our spending and everything. It started as that, and then it led to some jobs.

It led to some interesting relationships with some other artists, and I was like, you know what? I like this. On the producing end, I like being the person who’s out talking to people and who’s making those connections and bringing people together.

I love that.

[Phil Rickaby]
What part, when you’re talking about bringing people together like that, is that just like you’re bringing sponsors in? What people are you bringing together?

[Luke Reece]
Whatever kind of people I need. I mean, it started with just finding people who wanted to create with me, right? Finding a team of people who I liked, who I respected, and who respected me and my work, and then everything from that to people just coming up to me and being like, you know people in the community.

This is what I want to do. Do you have any people in mind that could do that? And then I’m like, yeah, here are all these people.

So I like to meet people, so that way I have people to offer to these other people. But then also bringing in sponsors and talking to people about the work that I do and the work that other people do and getting the conversations going and getting people excited, getting audiences excited. There’s a joke now at YPT where I’ve realized that I say a lot that I am excited or like that’s exciting in response to different things.

So now Nick will be like, oh really? Is that exciting, Luke? It must be so exciting.

So now I try to say it more. Of course. But yeah, I think I’m a bit of a hype man for some shows, for some work, and for some people in that sense.

[Phil Rickaby]
You mentioned that you started down this road because you started self-producing.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah.

[Phil Rickaby]
Everybody, like self-producing, when I was in theater school, they never talked about self-producing.

[Luke Reece]
They’re like, no, don’t do it.

[Phil Rickaby]
I think they still don’t do it. Then a lot of theater schools don’t talk about self-producing very much. Or they might touch on it, but they never like prepare you.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah, there’s like a couple. I mean, I went to York and there was a course at York I took called, I think it was called Theater Management. Fuck, that’s like gold.

No, it was great. It’s a third year course and it’s not mandatory. You can either take Theater Management, which is a third year course, or Career Management, which was a fourth year course, I believe.

And it was described to us that like, oh, Career Management is the one for actors, and Theater Management is the one for people who want to do other things. So I took Theater Management and I did it the summer after doing, or sorry, the year after doing the SummerWorks program, Slip, that now exists in different ways and is more of a platform than the program that was in 2013. I think it was the year I did it where I got a little taste of producing and it was meant for emerging producers at that time.

I think I was the youngest in that year. I got to meet so many artists in the community and every day we did a different little seminar. We had fundraising, how to deal with the media, touring, what it means to be an artistic director, grants, budgeting, everything.

Just a little bit of taste and I was like, okay, this is it. Like I’m getting my feet wet. And then the next year I took Theater Management and I felt like I had almost already done that course within the span of two weeks at SummerWorks.

And then went and nailed that class. But even still, it was just like having the opportunity to practice those skills in an environment where it’s fake money. So there’s no real risk involved in that class, which was nice.

And the whole thing, at the end of the class, you have to submit an OAC grant at the end of it. And so you need to have your company and your slogan, or not your slogan, your mandate slogan. And then what your plan was for the season as well.

And I was working with Little Black Afro Theater as my company, which is a collective that I had been working with at that point for, I think we’ve been around for just two years, maybe not even a year and a half. And eventually used this same or a similar grant application for that project for the OAC and got that grant my first summer out of school.

[Phil Rickaby]
How do you, I’m curious, and maybe you don’t know, like how do you grade somebody’s first OAC without being the OAC panel? Like how do you even grade that?

[Luke Reece]
How do you do that? And we even had to like print everything. And it was like, because that was before, like now it’s OAC, now it’s Nova.

[Phil Rickaby]
Thank goodness.

[Luke Reece]
I had to print so many copies. And like, I love the OAC very much. And they funded us.

And it was fantastic. But no, that assignment too, I was like, how are you going to?

[Phil Rickaby]
How do you grade that? That’s like my question.

[Luke Reece]
I got an A, so I guess that means I got the grant. And then in real life, I got the grant. So I was like, that’s pretty good.

[Phil Rickaby]
It works out well.

[Luke Reece]
Right? So the grading screen, I guess, wasn’t far off from whoever’s on the jury that year.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. In terms of the, like you said, you’re starting to self-produce. Um, was there something, was there a particular reason why you wanted to self-produce?

Or was it just like, that’s the path that you wanted to go on? Or?

[Luke Reece]
It was, so it was my, uh, the summer after first year. So I just did a year of university and I was like, all pumped. And I met all these cool people.

And I learned so much. And I just like realized that I could do better work than what I was doing in high school. I was like, whoa, and I was in high school.

I thought I was, I hit my peak. I thought that was it. I can’t get any better than grade 12 serious festival.

Um, and then after first year York, I was like, no, I, I learned some things and I wanted to try it out. I wanted to rewrite an old piece. I wanted to do more work and I didn’t see any options for me.

I think that was the problem is I got out of first year and I was like, Hey, but like, I don’t want to wait until September to come back to school and do things. Like I want to do things now. And then a friend of mine saw that and he, one of my, one of my best friends who’s not involved in theater at all.

He went to a different high school and he’s very much like a tech kind of business guy. So he came up to me and he was like, Hey, like, what if we just started, what if we just self produce? Like I’ll make your, I’ll make the website.

I’ll do all the designs. We’ll do like a business plan and we’ll just do something this summer. And my first thought was like, you’re an idiot, Ryan.

Like I don’t, like I’m working two jobs, coaching a soccer team. What am I going to do this? And then, uh, and then I was like, no, yeah, that could be cool.

And he came up with the name Little Black Afro too. The idea was that cause we were in Mississauga and we were going to produce it in Mississauga. And he’s like, some people might recognize you or like know your work from like Meadowvale.

And we were trying to use it to bring in people who might recognize my hair, which is what, which is where the, and then it just stuck. And now it’s just a fun thing. Um, so I guess it started from like this.

I wanted to do it and I didn’t know where. And, and I think a lot of companies out there offer programs for you once you’re out of school. Cause like while you’re in school, like, yeah, like school will deal with you.

And then when you get out of school and like, maybe you’ve learned some things or you’ve had some experiences, then I think some of the theater companies want to take you on. And I know that there are programs out there for people in high school and still in school, but I just didn’t know. I, I wasn’t told that in the first year.

Nobody came in and outlined that for me, which, you know, when I was in theater school, they didn’t want us working between like first and second year.

[Phil Rickaby]
They were like, they would have really discouraged that.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah.

[Phil Rickaby]
During like, I think they just didn’t want us picking up anything from inside of.

[Luke Reece]
Did you do a conservatory?

[Phil Rickaby]
I did.

[Luke Reece]
See? Yeah. Cause the conservatory at York had the same rule.

It was like, you don’t do anything.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
Cause you’re ours. But I did, I did playwriting device theater. And I guess they were like, Oh, they’re a little more like do whatever.

Um, but not like, I’m not like, I don’t know if I would have listened if they, if they said not do it.

[Phil Rickaby]
We had some people in our class who they, they didn’t listen and they started, they got like, you shouldn’t do that. We just got to turn this way, you know? And so they weren’t able to do it, but I think they, you know, they weren’t, they definitely weren’t happy about it.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah. And I think, you know, there’s a, there’s a benefit to really closing yourself off and focusing on one thing. Cause you can get so good at that one thing, but then you just come out of it and you have that one thing.

And then you, and you met with other things and you’re like, Oh, like, if you like, you know, in rock, paper, scissors, if you only knew rock, every time you encountered paper in the real world, you’d be like, Oh shit.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
I don’t know scissors cause they only taught me rock.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. When you, like you, you formed this company like Afro. What was, what was the show that you, did you even have a show that you wanted to do at the time?

[Luke Reece]
I did. There was, there’s the show that I did in grade 12 Sears festival. And I was like, this is my baby.

And it was like the first real play that I wrote. And I wanted to go back and, and use, bless you, and use what I learned and rewrite it and be like, well, now, well, now what? And I think it’d be better.

Yeah. And my friend also knew that he had come and he’d seen the show. So he suggested like, well, why don’t we go back to this?

Why don’t you do that again? And then that was another way that he won me over. Cause I was like, okay, yeah, I do want to rewrite that.

I do. I do. I do.

And then, you know, I just got into the playwriting program at York. So I’m like, I am a playwright so I can do this. Of course.

Um, and then he was like, but that play is kind of sad. So I also want you to write a funny play. And then I was like, okay.

And then wrote this terrible, it wasn’t terrible. It was hilarious, but there was no point to it. Um, like the whole comedy of each of these plays was like 25 minutes long, perhaps.

And they did it like a double bill. Um, these two guys who worked in a mail room. Um, and they were, they have this like routine.

They’re like best friends, how they sort the mail. And it’s kind of like some slapstick stuff. And then they get this pack, this sack.

And there’s a human being that someone has kidnapped and is trying to mail. But they have a rule that they can’t open the mail. So they’re like, they’re having this moral dilemma where they’re like, do we open it or not?

And then the guy’s like, I heard the sack grunt. And the other one’s like, sacks don’t grunt, dude. And the play was called Sacks Don’t Grunt.

And, uh, but it was fun. So that’s where it came out of. It was, and then the next time we produced two, it was two plays that I had just, I had written.

And, and then after that, I was kind of like, I don’t know, we did a, like a device collective piece because I was doing device theater at that point in second year. And then there was just something about producing my own work that just got annoying for me. And it felt weird at like what, when I had done the Sumner Works program, when I, when I had taken the class in theater management, I was like, I know these things now.

And, and I also realized that I needed to give my own work more time. And I, and maybe it wasn’t ready to just throw up some work. And then with the people that I had around me at the company at the time as well, um, we decided it was best to just produce other people’s work or like use what we have in our resources and our experience thus far.

But still, like we, we acknowledge the fact that we are emerging and we don’t know everything, but we know a little bit and together maybe we can do something cool. Um, so then we started, you know, having calls for submission and developing some pieces and just investing in, in artists and ideas that, uh, that we liked. Nice.

Yeah.

[Phil Rickaby]
Nice. Um, so one of the things that I often like to, like to find out about is why people choose to go into the theater. So for you, what was it that, that, that sort of drew you in to the theater?

When did it start for you?

[Luke Reece]
Um, it did, it started like, I think it started early on, but I didn’t acknowledge it until I was in high school. Like I always liked the spotlight. I liked to perform when I was a kid, my sister and I would do magic shows at like family gatherings.

We would have like a dance thing and I would have like a little solo dance part when I was like six years old at like family Christmas. Like I liked performing and I didn’t really know at the time. I was just like, this is cool.

And I also liked writing. I liked writing stories. In grade one, we had to write like a paragraph for this, this little telling bee book thing they were putting together.

And then I wrote like a two page thing, but they cut it down to the first paragraph and put it in. And I was pissed because it didn’t make sense of the title that they had. Because it was, the story was called, uh, Blackie Came Back.

But in the intro, Blackie was a squirrel. In the intro paragraph, it just outlines who the squirrels were. Like it just, you know, establishes the characters were great.

And when Luke was like, these people need to know all the squirrels first before they know that he leaves and comes back. But they didn’t get to that part. So then it just didn’t make sense of the title.

And I was pissed anyways, justifiably grade one pissed. And then I was in a musical in grade eight. And then I was like, this is just fun.

This is fun for me. And I went to, I didn’t go to an arts high school because I loved math and I loved science. And I was getting high nineties in both.

And that was exciting for me. And it was like pleasing people. And I think what I actually liked was the fact that people were like, oh, you got a 98 in math.

More than actually being proud of myself for getting like a 98 in grade nine math or whatever that means to me now. Um, but then my drama teacher, uh, recognized that I had a lot of energy and that I was interested in and kept like pulling me in and, and, you know, try out for this and be a part of this, uh, Terry Fox assembly or this school play or Sears or student rights or like everything where she could fit me in. And then I loved it.

And then, but it still wasn’t even until that grade 12 Sears show that I knew that this was what I wanted to do. I still thought like, this was just a fun thing that I’m doing. I’m still like, I’m still taking grade 12 physics.

I’m still doing all these things and getting ready to apply for like psych or engineering or numerous things. But then when I, that play I wrote the first time when it was performed before Sears, the student rights festival, which is a festival that is done in the Peel, uh, within the Peel school boards. It’s run by that same drama teacher, uh, Wendy Gibbons and Ian Armstrong, who are dear to my heart.

And, uh, I had the play and it was, it was a play that came from very, uh, emotional moment in my life. Uh, it was inspired by the passing of my grandmother, uh, and my grandfather’s response to that and how he was very loving and just positive with her the entire way. So my whole family was, was there to see it that night.

My grandfather was there and, uh, you know, my aunt, and then the play happened. And afterwards, like everyone stood up and like applauded. And then like my family was in tears.

And it was just like the fact that I could make that happen, like the, and I ended up directing it too. So it was just like my words and my placement of people on a stage could make all those people feel that much emotion. I was like, this is frigging awesome.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
I was like, this is what I want to make people feel things. And that was it. And then I was, and then I just changed my entire path.

Cause this was like when you were applying for schools too. This was, so I was like looking at schools for other things. It was in November and then I was like, nope.

And then it was all of a sudden applying to theater school.

[Phil Rickaby]
What was your path going to be before that moment? Like, what were you thinking that you were going to be doing?

[Luke Reece]
I mean, there was math was the thing. I loved physics. I still like physics a lot.

Um, I didn’t, I didn’t take the, the final math course. You have to take in grade 12 to go into engineering because I think like in my mind, I could like, I knew that I was going to go in a different direction. So like there were certain programs that I thought in grade 11, I wanted that I ruled out by my choice of courses in grade 12.

But then I was like, no, I’ll do, I’ll do psychology and maybe I’ll do biology. And then I’ll work my way back into, to like some hardcore math and science. Um, but it was like, no, I liked, I liked, I liked theater.

I liked being in a room with people making discoveries, like go and dive into some texts. And it was like, there’s also a sense of community and family that I got from that specific show. Cause we worked on it pretty much all year in grade 12 from the student rights festival in the fall through to the Sears in the winter into the early spring.

And it was just, it was a great experience. I wanted to keep doing that.

[Phil Rickaby]
When, now I know a number of people, I’ve spoken to a number of people who’ve gone from like the academic where they were like on an academic path. And then all of a sudden they made that change and they were going to, they decided they were going to go into theater and their families kind of had a, a moment of like, or some of them are still going through that moment.

[Luke Reece]
Forever in that moment.

[Phil Rickaby]
Like what, what happened? You were going to be a scientist or a doctor or a professor. Did you find that?

Or did, or was your family like, we see what you did there and you should pursue this.

[Luke Reece]
I think like it, like different family members clicked at different, at different times. And I mean, even the fact that I went to Meadowvale which was just the high school that was across the street from where I lived, it wasn’t an art school. It wasn’t a science school.

Like I could have gone to Woodlands which was like the gifted school in Mississauga. And a lot of my family was just like, they took so much pride in the fact that I could do that. That that was a choice, you know?

And they’re like, you know, like Woodlands, Woodlands. You go to Woodlands, like da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. But I was like, but I just want to like, all my friends are going to Meadowvale.

It’s right there. Like, I think I’m still going to be smart at Meadowvale. I’m not going to just turn it.

Like, you know, it was nothing. So I chose Meadowvale and some of my family were there like, okay, all right. Yeah, sure.

Okay. And then like, my guy kept getting good grades and they’re like, yeah, awesome. This is fantastic.

And then, you know, gradually I’m just doing all these shows and all of a sudden they’re getting invites to all these plays and they’re coming out and they’re seeing it and they’re like, that’s fun. That’s nice. And then definitely when I made the choice, you know, there were a lot of conversations I had and like, they weren’t so like, this is wrong.

They were just trying to understand it. Yeah. Because they also saw how much I would, I was, I was succeeding and, and how much I liked math and they were like, but what?

Huh? And I was like, but this is what I want to do. And that, that final piece in grade 12 that was really connected to the family, I think that that helped a lot of them get it.

And then in university, you know, as I would, every now and then get some kind of like award for work or some kind of milestone and they would all come out and they would support and they would see at the, at the receptions, like just people around and they’re like, oh, okay, this is, this is becoming a thing.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
I think like there was a moment where I have won a playwriting award through the Arts and Letters Club of Toronto, along with the PGC at the Tom Hendry Awards. And I, and my mom came to that and a lot of other people, my family came as well. They’re always really supportive too.

Like they’ve never just not come. But there’s one with my mom there and like she was just like seeing all these people and like the building we were in. And I think that that was just like, I was like, okay, now she gets it.

[Phil Rickaby]
Did that happen at the Arts and Letters Club? Yeah, yeah, the reception. That is a fucking impressive building.

[Luke Reece]
It’s an impressive building. I think the building helped. I think the building definitely helped.

And then, and I think because I saw, like my mom kind of understand it, then I also took a breath in that moment. And I was like, okay, yeah.

[Phil Rickaby]
Were there different schools that you were looking at when you were like, were you considering different schools? And was it, did you make the choice of York or did York choose you?

[Luke Reece]
I think it was a bit of both. I was gonna apply, I went to, no, I went to the Ryerson Open House before. And I just did not like the vibe at all for their theater program.

And I was like, I was turned off entirely by Ryerson. I was like, nope, not even gonna apply. So I applied to like Guelph and McMaster, like some of the ones that just have not too much of a hands-on kind of, you’re gonna be in a studio program, but a lot of like theory-based theater courses and programs.

And then I applied to Windsor. And then my Windsor audition was gonna happen like a couple of weeks after my York audition. Went to the York audition, and for the York audition, they take you around the school and you get to hang out with some of the students that are in their first year.

And I just fell in love with the people and with the vibe, the fact that in first year, I got to do everything. Because I definitely came into it, like I want to be an actor, but also I want to be a playwright and also whatever else I could do. And York was like, you can do all of that in first year, and then you get to decide.

And I was like, sweet. So I auditioned with a story about my experience doing my show in grade 12. So I didn’t do a monologue.

I didn’t present a design thing, what you could have done. I just told them about why I wanted to get into theater. And then they called not too long after, like year in.

I didn’t even go into my Windsor audition. I called Windsor and was like, sorry, I’m not going to go get the spot somewhere else, whatever. And then I went to York, and I think that was the right school for me.

I definitely think it was the right school for me.

[Phil Rickaby]
There’s something about knowing that, like feeling that you’re in the right place.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah.

[Phil Rickaby]
That really is the right, it makes you feel like you’re, well, in the right place. Like instead of like, you know, you’re in, like you knew from the moment you saw it, that it was like for you. And a lot of people just like end up going, you know, who will take me?

[Luke Reece]
Yeah. You know?

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Which works, but to know, to go in knowing that you’re in the right place, that you chose that. That’s sort of like a great way to start out.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah, I was definitely, I definitely got off on the right foot. I was excited. I was happy.

I was like, this is it. I don’t know what’s going to happen, but I know it’s going to be awesome. Which is how I approach a lot of things.

[Phil Rickaby]
But you’re excited.

[Luke Reece]
Because I’m excited because everything’s so exciting. I was so excited to go to York. I was excited, but I was also excited to graduate.

I was so excited to leave York. As much as I love the school for me, getting out of there was awesome.

[Phil Rickaby]
Was it like, were you, was it like, did it, by the end, was it like taking too long? Was it, were you done?

[Luke Reece]
Well, like in fourth year, I didn’t take any theater classes. Okay. I ended up getting a minor in creative writing alongside my theater major.

So my fourth year was a lot of English classes and finishing my gen eds because I was doing so much theater work outside of school at that point. I was like, I don’t need to pay York $1,100 to use their studio and get taught by one person and then do one show at the end of the year.

[Phil Rickaby]
Right.

[Luke Reece]
That 70 people who I already know are going to see.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
When I can use that money and self-produce and, you know, make some connections and find mentors and it can be like there, it’s just, there was a point, like I think in third year where I realized that like, I didn’t need York for theater anymore.

[Phil Rickaby]
Can I just say that a lot of people that I know of when they’re leaving theater school, they’re not thinking about finding mentors. That’s not a thing that people, that a lot of people consider. Where did that impulse come from for you that you knew you needed to find some mentors?

[Luke Reece]
York would bring in speakers when we were in first year and Phillip Aiken came in, in first year and he did this, this big talk and he was like, you know, like, if you want to sit down and have a coffee with me, just send me an email and none, and he’s like, I’m telling you that none of you will do this. And I went, a little first year Luke went up to Phillip Aiken after, I don’t know if he remembers this, but I was like, yeah, I’m going to, I’m going to do that. He’s like, okay, do it.

And I was like, all right. And I went and I put it in my, my calendar app. I don’t remember what I was using at the time, but I remember it crashed because I lost everything and I was so upset, which is why I didn’t email Phillip Aiken.

And I didn’t see him until, until I was at the summer works doing slip. And then they kept bringing in all these people and they give you a mentor for that too. So my mentor was Guillermo Verdecchia.

So I was like hanging out with Guillermo over the summer and then meeting all these other people and Phillip came in and he was like, you have a good website, Little Black Afro. And I was like starstruck and I was like, and then I finally messaged Phillip and I was like, hey, and then I like, I emailed like almost every single one of these people that came and I was like, thanks for coming in. This is something that I liked about what we talked about.

And then a lot of them, I was like, let’s keep in touch or let’s sit down for coffee. And then I think that’s when I realized that that was an option because everyone I asked to sit down with was like, yeah. And I was like, wait, what?

It’s actually, it’s okay. And then like, you know, I just made a lot of friends with people who were artists in the community and then they just became mentors. So I don’t know if I was like, if I knew that I was looking for a mentor off the top, but I was just looking for people to hear me, people I could learn from.

And I guess that’s what a mentor is. And I had a lot of good mentors. Just in school, my drama teacher was a great mentor to me and I’d always lucked out with just having fantastic teachers all the way through elementary school.

And even like at work, I worked in retail at Aeropostale for like nearly six years. And my manager there, I consider a mentor. And it’s like, you know, I opened myself up to those kinds of relationships and I think I find them in those ways.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. It’s funny because you talk about how, you know, you could just email these people and say, hey, can we meet? And they all said, yes.

And that’s something that I think a lot of people don’t think about even as an option. You were not thinking about it, you did it. And they were like, yeah, sure.

I found just doing this podcast that you ask people to talk to you and they…

[Luke Reece]
Yeah, they’re like, okay.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. So it’s like, it’s one of those things you don’t think about, but it’s there.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah.

[Phil Rickaby]
Is there anything in particular that you learned? If you can like sum up things that you learned from the people that you became your mentor?

[Luke Reece]
Yeah, you definitely like… You don’t need to know… You don’t always need to know exactly what you want to get out of the conversation, but you need to have a pretty good idea.

Even if it’s just like, hey, I want you to know me as an artist and I want to know you and learn more about your work. That’s okay. You can meet, but there is…

And it’s funny because now I’m at YPT, but I met with Alan McInnes because he came in and talked to us. And I remember… And I have to talk to you about this too, but…

Because I wonder if he remembers this because he probably meets with a lot of people as well. But like, I remember going and sitting down with him and he was like, so like, what do you want to talk about? Or like, what do you…

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
Like, what are you wondering about with YPT? And I knew things about young people’s theater, but I did not know a lot. Did not know enough as much as I should have going into that conversation.

And I felt like an idiot there. I was like, I don’t really know. And then he ended up…

He gave me an idea of some of the different things that YPT does and how I could get involved with YPT and like volunteering and this and that. And it’s also such a big company. There’s so many ways to get involved.

That I was sitting there and I was like… And it was like a very brief kind of a conversation. And then at the end of it, he’s like, well, you know, we can chat again when you have a better idea of what you’re looking for or what you know, because I get…

I felt like an idiot. I went home and I was still in Mississauga. So I took the GO train home and I did the whole time.

And I’m like, why didn’t I just do some more research or just like Google something?

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s like you didn’t know what you didn’t know, right? I didn’t know what I didn’t know.

[Luke Reece]
I didn’t know that… I mean, I’m there now. So I guess…

And now I know.

[Phil Rickaby]
Have you ever seen shows at YPT or was like…

[Luke Reece]
I hadn’t even seen a show at YPT. So that’s one of the things that he said. He was like, well, you should see a show.

So if you want to come to one of our teacher previews, send me an email, I’ll get you tickets. And I did that. I went and I started seeing their shows.

And that’s so important is seeing the shows. I guess as soon as I met with Philip, like every single Obsidian show after that, I was at. I’m not sure.

It was like, I’m seeing their work. I’m seeing their work all of the time. Yeah, and then whenever I go to YPT, it was just like, that was just so important because the people are there.

You know, you say, hi, what’s up? How’s it going? You don’t have to have a full on conversation with them about their show on opening night.

It’s probably not the best idea, but they know you’re there. And I’m like, oh yeah, that was nice of Luke to come and see our work. And then, because people can’t offer you work if they don’t know you exist.

Right, it’s true. If they don’t know that you’re an option. So I think a lot of the opportunities I’ve gotten now, it’s just because I present myself as an option.

[Phil Rickaby]
I personally, I have a soft spot for YPT because years ago when I was like, oh, how old was I? I might have been like 16. I don’t know if they still do their summer school.

Yeah, their summer drama camp. I did that. I did that.

I was like, I think it was the July one year when I was 16. It was like completely formative. It was like, there are some people that I met there that I still know and I still remember the crappy little show that we made and stuff like that.

But like, it was really formative. So it’s like one of those things.

[Luke Reece]
I wish I did YPT because when I was a kid, I played soccer. I did soccer. I played, like in school, I played football.

I played volleyball. I did track for, I did a lot of sports before I actually got into theater. So I don’t think my parents knew.

I think if they knew that now I was going to become this theater person, then they would have signed me up for something like that. But I was just like, I like sports and math. And they were like, okay, let’s do that.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s too bad because that program is like, it’s just this great program.

[Luke Reece]
Oh, it’s fantastic. And you know, even like now I’m seeing like, I’m meeting people and they’re like, yeah, like, oh, we worked for MTU. I went to camp there.

I didn’t. I feel left out. I feel left out.

[Phil Rickaby]
You shouldn’t feel left out.

[Luke Reece]
You had sports and stuff, which a lot of actors are like, I wish I had sports. And I still play sports. I play soccer twice a week still.

It’s like, it’s so important that I get to kick a ball really hard at least twice a week.

[Phil Rickaby]
You are still working with Obsidian as well, right? I am. So I’m on the website.

So I’m not sure if you actually are.

[Luke Reece]
I’m on the website because I haven’t taken myself off. Well, so what happened? I got in a Metcalf internship.

I applied with Obsidian. So I did their apprenticeship program last year around the same time, actually. And I did that in producing specifically.

And I was working with Tanya Senowirotny there. And then I switched. I did a double apprenticeship.

So I switched and I actually was at YPT in their education department, working with the drama school, doing an apprenticeship there. And then I really liked the relationship that was happening with Obsidian. And I felt like there was still more for me to learn there in terms of like more general management versus producing.

So we talked to Phillip and Tanya. We put together a Metcalf application for their program there. We got it.

And the plan was that I was just going to be at Obsidian for the full year. Life happens. Tanya got a wonderful position at Soul Pepper.

Congratulations, Tanya. She’s killing over there. And then we kind of had to reconfigure what my internship was.

I was then working kind of under Phillip at the time, but then he is right now in Shaw. He’s in Niagara-on-the-Lake directing. So when Phillip was slated to go, like we worked really hard with Metcalf.

Metcalf did a really good job about it, Michael Trent there, and making sure that I would still have a place. And that, you know, because you plan for the funding that you’re getting for this amount of time. And because I had that relationship with YPT, but I was in the YPT, in the education department, getting a chance to work with Nancy Webster, I thought was going to be great.

And Phillip highly recommended her as well. So we split it. And when Phillip took off to Shaw, I’m now at YPT finishing that same Metcalf internship.

But I still have a strong relationship with Obsidian. I think that there is a future with Obsidian, I believe. But I got to do one thing at a time.

But I’m still on the website.

[Phil Rickaby]
Which is why I was asking you about it. But when you, I don’t know how long you spent doing what you were doing at Obsidian, but are there different things that you’re learning that are like differences between the YPT experience and the Obsidian experience?

[Luke Reece]
It’s so different. And I’m like, it’s the perfect pairing for me because the kind of work that, but the quality of the work is all, like the two companies that do just like high quality work. I love it.

And I’m so lucky to be, to have worked with both of them. But like, but completely different audiences. The size, the scale.

I mean, you’re going from a non-venue company to what has been around for going on 17 years to a venue company that’s been going around for nearly 52 years. A staff of 40 versus a staff of sometimes four. It’s just like, there are different, like there are different things I have to do and there’s different responsibilities.

And sometimes like with YPT, it’s like navigating all of these different departments and kind of having my feet in all these different places, but overseeing everything. And then with Obsidian, it was like kind of like just doing everything.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Luke Reece]
But in a way that makes sense for your company. And, you know, it really like Obsidian is a lot of like going to bat for Obsidian, going to bat for these artists and really like making sure that your voices are heard when you’re competing with some of these larger companies. And then YPT is providing spaces for younger artists, for children and everybody to explore.

And like really that building is so vibrant and full of life and art all of the time. Like it’s, I couldn’t have, I couldn’t have just like imagined a better pairing of places. It’s great.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s like you’ve got YPT, which is like so important for like, not just introducing theater to a young audience, but for like introducing theater to the future of theater. Right? Like people who are going to like do stuff.

And, but then you, and I didn’t actually realize that Obsidian had like only 17 years. For some reason, I thought that Obsidian had been around longer. Cause I’ve been hearing the name for so long.

I just sort of like assumed that they’ve been, that they’ve been there forever, but no, like no companies like that. Most companies are not that old right now.

[Luke Reece]
Right? Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, they’re, they’ve been doing a good job at, at just like being out in the community. And I mean like Obsidian does good work and that’s what, you know, people know Obsidian cause they’re like, no, I saw that when they finally see an Obsidian show, they’re like, oh my gosh, this is great.

Why haven’t I been seeing more shows?

[Phil Rickaby]
I’m going to bring up the thing that I think keeps some people who normally go to theater away. And that’s because they’re white. And Obsidian produces theater that is centered around the African dance movement.

But most of our audience is white. Oh, it’s a show for, it’s a show for me. But that’s like one of those things that people who don’t know, don’t know.

So what, like.

[Luke Reece]
Especially when we do Master Heralds at Toronto Center for the Arts, up in, in North York, mostly white majority, 100%. You’re still seeing more black people than you are at other shows in the city. Like definitely more black people, but still mostly white.

[Phil Rickaby]
Well, I mean, there’s that agent, there’s that question about, you know, bringing more people into the theater who don’t normally come into the theater. When, you know, not that like, price of ticket is an issue for a lot of people. Like I maybe go to see one Mervis show every two years that takes scratch.

And, you know, so it’s like big theater requires a lot more money. And I know that there’s a lot of people talking about, I’ve heard people complaining about how, you know, Hamilton in the U.S., that theater, which is, you know, that show is made up of such diverse people that the audience is like mostly white people. Except maybe on the educational, like Wednesday at matinee.

But like, how do we get more people into the theater who often think that theater is for rich people?

[Luke Reece]
Yeah. And it’s hard because it takes money to make it work. You know, theater is not cheap.

And even with Obsidian, there’s that line where it’s like, you know, we could be pricing our shows higher because it’s because of the quality of the work. You know, like people can go, people saw Master Herald and The Voice for $20 sometimes. It was a beautiful show.

I mean, $20 is a steal. I don’t care if it’s a 90 minute show. It’s a great show.

But there are people that want to come to your shows that are like, well, I can’t afford it. And I think it’s like, there needs to be those corporations, those organizations, those people with money who can pay for other people in the community to see that. And some theaters are calling it outreach, right?

You’re applying for grants so you can have subsidized tickets. And you see it happening every now and then, but it’s just, it’s tough.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
It’s tough.

[Phil Rickaby]
Because it’s that balance between like, I have to be able to afford to put on the show. Yeah. But I also want the widest possible audience to come and see the show.

And that’s tough to balance.

[Luke Reece]
And then, you know, when you, if you’re like, well, maybe I’ll just like, I’ll add an extra show, like an extra Wednesday matinee, but then you add more shows, then you’re upping yourself in the category. Then there’s equity. And you know what?

So there’s also all these things that we have to navigate and consider if you want to make those steps.

[Phil Rickaby]
When you’re talking about going to bat for Obsidian and going to bat for those people, where are you going to bat? Like, how is that? What does that look like?

[Luke Reece]
It just looks like, I think this goes for all non-venue companies. When you go to a venue and you’re renting and it’s your show, you want to make sure people go to that venue and still know that it’s your show. Right.

That you guys put in all the work. So sometimes it comes down to how you’re dealing with the lobby space, right? What kind of promotional materials are they letting you put in the space, right?

Because they’re, you know, when you want to represent your sponsor, because your sponsor gives you so much money and they really help make that work what it is. And you were like, yeah, I want to put your logo up on a poster there. But then there’s other companies like, hmm, we actually have this other bank.

But right, especially when you go to- That’s got to be a tough negotiation. And it just comes down to like, listen, like, you know, we put in all this work. We are renting right now.

We are bringing in new audiences to your theater. Let us put up this plaque.

[Phil Rickaby]
I find it kind of shocking that that’s even like, that that’s even a conversation. They’re like, no, no, no. See, I know you’re renting, but this company gave us money.

So your rental doesn’t trump this. Like, it’s a strange thing.

[Luke Reece]
And like, and each, and you know, there’s this like, every, every venue, the ones I’ve experienced, like they have their own guidelines, their own rules. And they all vary, but it just feels like everyone’s kind of holding on to this like precious thing that’s theirs. And it’s like, well, we’re all just doing theater together.

[Phil Rickaby]
What’s the precious thing? Is that their space or their sponsor? Or is it like, or is it their audience?

[Luke Reece]
I think it’s, it’s their audience, their identity. I think it’s the fear of being seen somehow in a way that, that they don’t want to be seen. Like if there happens to be something terrible that goes wrong in our show and somebody blames it on the space and not the company, you know, in which case I think of, you know, Obsidian would own up and be like, okay, yeah, that’s our patron who kind of punched a hole in the wall.

This has never happened. But there’s, it all comes from fear. It comes from like, oh, I don’t know.

This is different. This has changed. Like we don’t normally let people put up.

It’s funny because we have these like easels that have these plaques on it that like say like Obsidian and our main sponsor TD. And in some places it’s like, oh, like when I ask them, like, oh, they’re like, what do you, like, where do you want to, I’m like, oh, wherever. Like, but sometimes they don’t even get asked the question because a lot of smaller companies who will rent, like a lot of indie companies don’t have that.

So when Obsidian, a company that has been around for nearly 17 years, that has a lot of weight, although we don’t have our own venue comes in and like, we got this, this, this, this, and this. They have to go up. They’re not used to it at the same time.

And then they have to, they have to make exceptions for us. And then we have to, and that’s when I’m on the phone going to bat for Obsidian.

[Phil Rickaby]
Do they have stuff in their contract about that stuff?

[Luke Reece]
Oh yeah. It comes up in contract negotiation and then it comes up, you know, and then we’ll bring it up and then it’ll get tossed around and then, you know, it depends on the company.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Yeah. What is, in terms of what you, where you want your trajectory in the theater to go, you’re doing, you know, you studied playwriting and acting and you did the devised course and now you’re doing some theater general management and things like that.

What do you want your theater trajectory to be?

[Luke Reece]
That’s a great question. Going into 2017, I was like, this year is going to be Luke’s year of writing and writing and then I’ll have like two main administrative gigs and then I’m just going to write. What’s my plan?

And I knew those gigs, there was going to be the Metcalf Internship and there was going to be Little Black Afro and then I wanted to write. And then I was like, wait, I’m also doing this great thing called Dark Nights that I did that I do at the Gladstone with Wayne Burns and Andy McKay and Joss McNeil and that’s just growing and growing and growing. So then I’ll have this internship and then I’ll have Little Black Afro and then I’ll have Dark Nights and then I’ll write.

And then I am now on the Toronto Poetry Slam team which happened in the winter and so then we practice and we are going to go compete in the States in August. So I was like, okay, so then I have this internship and I have Little Black Afro and I have Dark Nights and I have the Poetry Slam team and then I’m going to write and then I’m also going to play soccer twice a week because that and then it keeps building up and then I lose, like I haven’t had enough time to write this year. I think if there’s one thing I haven’t been doing enough of this year, it’s been writing.

But like I’m able to pay my bills, I’m still enjoying life. I, you know, a lot of things, I find a lot of things exciting. So ideally, I find enough time and I find a way to schedule my life where I can do all of these things the amount of time I need to do each of these things a week, which is, but I want to write more.

I want to write more than I am.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s tough to balance, like I, you know, I have my relationship, my job and my writing and, you know, eventually there’s going to be a show that comes out and so we’ve got like four things to balance. It’s hard to balance that. Whereas you’re like balancing, like what, like eight things.

[Luke Reece]
And there’s also a relationship in my life too. And it’s like, it’s like, it’s important.

[Phil Rickaby]
Um, we haven’t talked about Dark Nights.

[Luke Reece]
Um, Dark Nights is a conversation series that started with Wayne Burns out of the Youth Advisory Committee, uh, I guess like a year and a half ago now. Um, and basically, you know, we were in the YAC and we were always trying to think of these like youth events to do. And, uh, there was what, actually it was at the Toronto Reference Library where we first had this kind of conversation where we’re like, what, like, what is the thing, like, what do we want?

What do we value? And we talked about how we like talking to people who aren’t far off from our age, who are being successful. And like, sometimes it’s hard to look up, like me looking all the way up to Philip Aiken.

Like there are so many steps in between me and Philip Aiken. Where are those steps? Why can’t I see those steps?

Why can’t I have a conversation with the steps between me and Philip Aiken? I’ll still hang out with Philip Aiken and learn from him too, but I want to know all the other steps. Um, so then we came with this idea of creating a space where we bring in artists who are under 30 or around 30 who are doing what they love, who are making somewhat of a career out of it, or finding a way that they can live their life, pay their bills, do their art, and be someone happy, and also kick butt in what they’re doing.

And we want to talk to those people and bring in other people who aren’t part of those people and just like have an honest conversation. And we can also talk about your fears because we understand that it’s not perfect, but that doesn’t mean it’s not impossible. So the first year we did it, Theatre Ontario, we pitched the idea to them since it was from the YAC.

They gave us some seed money. We started it at the theatre center. We were having the conversations there every other Monday, which was so exhausting.

That’s a lot, that’s a lot. Which, and that’s right, that’s why it was called Dark Nights because it was like, theatres are up on Mondays. So, you know, we should be able to get everybody out, but every other theatre-related event happens on Mondays.

Of course it does. Like The Bellows happens on Mondays. Wrecking Ball happens on Mondays.

All these pop-up conversations about diversity happen on Mondays. So we did a year of that and we saw all kinds of artists. You know, Wayne and I both came from a theatre background, but we had musicians, we had illustrators, we had fashion designers, we had dancers, we had cinematographers, we had everything come in and we went out in the community and found these people, saw their work, thought they were cool, brought them in.

And then after the first year, we were like, okay, that was a lot, but we want to keep doing it. So Annie and Joss were two people who kept coming back and expressed an interest in Dark Nights and were like, we want to help make it better with you. So we brought them on the team.

We all sat down, had a hard look at Dark Nights, we were like, you know, how can we make it better? Okay, not every other Monday. We’re going to do one Wednesday night once a month.

We’re going to give us more time to get to know these artists. We’re going to put more information out there in social media, on our website, so people can also get to know the artists and prepare for the conversation. We’re going to go to the Gladstone now.

So now we have a permanent residency in room 207 at the Gladstone Hotel, which is great. We changed the time a bit. We just tightened everything and already we’re seeing a difference in our attendance.

We’re seeing a difference in the quality of conversations and the kind of artists we’re bringing in this year. It’s a great lineup. We have Haley McGee coming in tomorrow night and we’re live streaming Dark Nights now for the first time.

And so many people in our first year were like, have you guys tried live streaming?

[Phil Rickaby]
Are you doing Periscope or are you doing like Facebook Live?

[Luke Reece]
We’re going to do a Facebook Live. We’re going to try, I think it’s going to be trial and error. First up to bat, Facebook Live.

And then we’ll probably do a, we’ll see how that goes. We’ll get some feedback from people. You know, we’re always open to feedback too.

We also don’t think that what we’re doing is perfect. And then we might give Periscope a try. People have also been like, oh, you shouldn’t make it a podcast, but we really want people to be there in the room with us.

[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, podcast is great for those people who can’t, you know, speaking podcast.

[Luke Reece]
Right, on a podcast.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s great for those people who can’t be there, but I totally get like what you get out of being in that room and being able to participate. But on the other side. Oh yeah.

If you do like that, if you release it like a week later or something like that, like not right after, but you also, so there’s the impetus to be there in the room, but also include all of the questions that people have. So it’s not just like this person talking then we stop before the questions start coming in. Right.

Then somebody who can’t be there, like there’s somebody in right now in Winnipeg or Vancouver who can’t be there, but would really get something out of it. And I am all about like more Canadian theatre content in the podcast universe. So anything that we can get out there, because there is precious little.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah, no. And it is accessible.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, absolutely.

[Luke Reece]
And I think in order to, as Canada slowly defines what it means to be the Canadian theatre artist and what our theatre looks like, having more things out there could definitely help. I think there might be a time when we try podcasts. Because a year ago we were like, we’re never going to stream this live, ever, ever, ever, ever.

And then now I’m like, well, everyone tune in live tomorrow night. Because you never know how things are going to change. So it’s, yeah, we’re still growing, but it’s so cool.

And it’s one of the coolest things that I’m a part of right now. And it’s another thing that I wish I could give more time to.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It’s interesting you mentioned all of these things that as Canadian theatre artists talk about what Canadian theatre looks like and things like that. You also mentioned all of the pop-up conversations and diversity happening on a constant, almost constant basis.

[Luke Reece]
What is diversity?

[Phil Rickaby]
I have this thing where I get, I know the importance of talking about it. I was at the, what are they called? Oh, Bad Hats.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They had that, so I was at that. But then I heard like a couple of weeks later, there was a thing at George Brown College, the theatre department, their conversation on diversity.

It’s like every time we turn around, there’s a conversation about diversity. But we’ve been having those conversations about diversity for like, what? Like 20 years?

[Luke Reece]
For so long, since people could talk.

[Phil Rickaby]
Everybody can talk. It’s just like what we don’t seem to do is like enough action on that. Do you ever get tired of the conversation?

Or like the conversation is important to have and it’s good that we’re having it, but for fuck’s sake.

[Luke Reece]
I’m definitely getting tired of the conversation, but I’ll still show up because I feel like, if I don’t show up, then someone else will. And I feel like, you know, you look at the people who are going to these panels and you’re on the panel and you see that they’re tired and I wonder like, I’m like, well, why are you on this panel? I’m like, well, because if you don’t show up and someone else will, they might say the wrong thing.

So I’d rather have you on this panel, even though you’ve been on these panels forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and you’re exhausted.

[Phil Rickaby]
One of the things I noticed like when I was at the Bad Hats, it was an amazing panel.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah, well.

[Phil Rickaby]
But a couple of people were obviously tired.

[Luke Reece]
Nina was exhausted. Nina was exhausted.

[Phil Rickaby]
Nina is exhausted about the conversation, but she’s willing to be there.

[Luke Reece]
But she’s there. Yeah. She’s there.

And she’s so strong. I started tearing up. I started tearing up when Nina was speaking about, when they’re talking about the funding and how, you know, she’s not really getting rewarded for the work that’s happening.

Like sure, some of these other companies are getting cut money, but they still have way more money than what she is getting to work with. And she’s finding a way to do the work. And she’s there and she’s talking to it.

And I was, I teared up. Cause I was like, this is, like, this is, this is so sad that this is happening, that this is the structure that we’re living in, that we’re fighting. And you could see that she’s still fighting.

So like, thank you, Nina.

[Phil Rickaby]
I think one of the things that kind of struck me about that conversation was, you know, Nina is the only female person of color running a major theater, like a venue theater in this country. And how do we get, like, and that’s like, I keep wanting to just say, look guys, the question that we need, like, the question is, how do we make this happen? Like, why is that unique?

Because the boards are made up of old white men who just want to see old white men in control of their theaters and, you know, it’s like one of those things.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah. You know, it’s going to, it’s going to take a while. I mean, there was a time when there were none.

So, you know, I’m also like, I’m a hopeful person. So I think that we are moving if, you know, slowly, but we’re moving. But it’s, you know, it’s any, it’s like any, like racial or just gender, sexist kind of problem that’s out there.

Because it’s, we started off as an idiot world. And we are slowly realizing that, that there are better ways to live and that there are better ways to treat people and that there are better ways to deal with differences in the world. And it, you know, it’s just, it’s clicking with people slowly.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s really slow. And one of the things that I think that is a challenge for people is talk about way race makes white people uncomfortable. And because it makes them uncomfortable, they prefer not to talk about it, which is, or it’s awkward when they do talk.

That’s the thing. It’s like, so I’m talking about this. And he’s an artist of like, just, let’s just say it, just say it.

Like the thing is like, if you say the wrong thing, it’s okay if the person says, I prefer this term. And then we go forward. But the whole like, like white people get uncomfortable and so they don’t talk about it.

So they don’t deal with it. And that’s a problem.

[Luke Reece]
And it’s like, I’m, if you’re speaking honestly, then like all to you, you know, and you know, you don’t have to like everything. I don’t like chocolate. That’s just the thing I don’t like.

Okay. I don’t like chocolate. I don’t eat it.

I don’t, you know, if a white dude doesn’t like black theater artists, then he doesn’t let you, maybe he’s a little bit more of an asshole than I am for not liking chocolate. But like, you know, but don’t try to, I don’t force myself to eat chocolate. Like I don’t, I don’t go like, oh, I’m going to get more money if I eat chocolate.

So I’m just going to force feed myself chocolate. So don’t force feed yourself this work if you actually don’t want it.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s kind of funny. Well, it’s like, it’s like maybe they don’t want it, but chances are they also haven’t seen it.

[Luke Reece]
I try chocolate though. Yeah.

[Phil Rickaby]
And I’ve mentioned this before, theater is like the one art form that I can think of where people, where you hear, oh, I saw a play once. I didn’t like it. So I don’t know.

And maybe there’s like something up there. I saw a black theater show once and I didn’t like it. I don’t like black theater.

It’s like, but if it’s TV, if you see a bad show, you change the channel or something.

[Luke Reece]
Right. Because there’s less of a risk in like changing the channel than like finding the time in the night and going out for dinner and getting in the car and going and buying your tickets in advance and then sitting in the theater. And then, you know, it’s like there, there’s so many barriers and then you waste so much more of what appears to be your time and your money.

If you go out and see a show, you don’t like them versus you turn on and change the channel.

[Phil Rickaby]
You know, I think what a lot of people forget is like when it’s good.

[Luke Reece]
Oh, it was real good.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s so much better than like sitting at home and watching Netflix.

[Luke Reece]
Yeah. Whenever I catch myself watching Netflix, I’m like bad, bad. I could be reading a play.

I could be, but yeah, it’s like whenever and whenever I, I take someone to see theater who I, who doesn’t normally see theater. I, I pray. I hope that this is a good show.

Oh fuck.

[Phil Rickaby]
Right.

[Luke Reece]
And it’s like, I don’t want to take this person to see a terrible show.

[Phil Rickaby]
You want to be the person who took them to see like a stinker, right? Yeah. Right.

[Luke Reece]
And they never come back. I want to know, like I want to be the one who turns your life around.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s like you want to know, like is this show good for you to take somebody to see it? But a hundred percent, like it’s risk to be in that room. And maybe you’re there on a bad night.

You don’t know.

[Luke Reece]
You don’t know. It’s a big risk. So, and then I want to, I want to go back to diversity.

I’m going to give, I’m going to give Philip Aiken another shout out because any, and he tells us to everybody now, once he had this, he had this, I think he was having a conversation with Leah Simone Bowen as well about the different companies and like diversity and about referring to Obsidian as like a diverse company. And then he’s like, no, it’s a culturally specific company because if it’s diverse, then it’s like implying that there is like, we are different from something that is supposed to be the norm. And now we are the other.

But like really what we’re living in is a very diverse group of people where there isn’t really a norm. You can go on the streetcar and you can see anything. I can walk down Kensington and see an alligator.

Like, I don’t know. And he’s, you know, like Obsidian is a culturally specific theater company. Foodgen is a culturally specific theater company.

One might even say that other companies are culturally specific to it. I don’t want to, like how many names do I get?

[Phil Rickaby]
I don’t know, but like.

[Luke Reece]
Right. And then if that’s what they’re going to do, then that’s what they’re going to do.

[Phil Rickaby]
If that’s what they’re going to do, then it’s just like, this is what we are.

[Luke Reece]
Cause like, it makes me feel awkward when I see programming that just doesn’t make sense to me. And I’m sitting there and I’m like, you don’t know, you don’t know this artist. You don’t, you don’t, you ever said like, you didn’t go and see their work.

Like, like when I get, I get asked sometimes to be a part of shows, to work with companies. Strictly, I know because I’m black. And I know this because a lot of times they’ll tell me and I’m like, at least, but they’re like, we’re, you know, we’re looking to be more diverse and yada, yada, yada, yada.

I’m like, okay, at least you’re not trying to hide it. But people who’ve never seen me direct, write, act, produce, don’t actually know the caliber of what I can do. But I guess some people talk and they refer people as well.

But they’re like, oh, I want you to do this thing. And sometimes I feel icky. But I don’t feel icky if like, I know the person, if this is a person who’s like, come and seen my work, who I have a relationship with.

An example of this, Autumn Smith approached me to direct this new initiative that CanStage is doing alongside Shakespeare in Hyde Park. They’re commissioning some new works and I’ve been asked to direct one of them. And, you know, CanStage is a company.

Oh, CanStage is so white. Everyone knows that happened. And if anybody else in our organization they didn’t really know approached me and asked me to be a part of it, I would have been like, oh, this is, this is weird.

But Autumn has seen my work. Autumn knows me as an artist. And I feel like there’s an authenticity in that relationship that I value.

And I want to work on this because of Autumn and because of the relationship that we have. And I think some of these other companies need to put the time into developing relationships with artists. And then, because then when you program the work, everybody involved feels better about it.

The creative space is just, there’s a better energy to it. And then the work is better.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
Because it’s coming from a real place. It’s not coming. You’re not forced to do it because you don’t have funding anymore.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
You know, it’s like, it’s like walking around all day in like really tight clothes because they were super cheap. And you’re like, awesome. I got a great deal on these clothes.

Yeah. I’m going to put, everyone else is wearing these clothes, so I’m going to wear them around. But don’t, don’t wear them.

You’re going to be uncomfortable. It looks, you make the clothes look bad and you look bad.

[Phil Rickaby]
I think that it’s important that if, that, you know, the whole CanStageSoWhite thing, I think that kind of stuff is really important to call out. When a company is like, we’re Canadian stage, fuck it, like, show Canada, you know. And, but, and it’s important that we do call out companies that, that, you know, are.

Yeah.

[Luke Reece]
And the, yeah, the fact that they’re called, if they were called something else, I don’t, like, I think they probably still would have been called out, but not so, not as much. It’s just because like, what are you presenting?

[Phil Rickaby]
Yes.

[Luke Reece]
What are you, what are you presenting yourself as? Like, I think of Obsidian all of a sudden did a season where there were no black people whatsoever. Like sometimes Obsidian does plays written by white people, but then they do an all, you know, it’s just like supporting black artists in all ways, in design, in producing.

It’s not just about the performer or the playwright. There’s so many other aspects to it. But if you’re putting forward that you are Canadian stage, then what people see as Canada is different than it was when Canadian stage was formed.

Absolutely. But Canadian stage hasn’t changed.

[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely.

[Luke Reece]
So that’s the, that’s the problem. And that’s why they’re getting called out.

[Phil Rickaby]
But there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of companies that are, that, you know, they’re like that.

[Luke Reece]
Mm-hmm.

[Phil Rickaby]
They are still, they haven’t changed and they haven’t changed to reflect the world around them. And we got to call them out on it. Especially when they are Canadians.

If you’re going to do that, you know.

[Luke Reece]
Like I got, I got called out when I cut my hair because then other people were like, you’re a little black Afro. What do you, what do you mean?

[Phil Rickaby]
Did you shave it off or something?

[Luke Reece]
I got it. So I, I did, I had like, just rocking a huge fro for like, I don’t know, something stupid, like 10 years. And within those 10 years, you know, I was getting it trimmed and just growing out.

But then this past holiday season, I like shaved it all off. And the first thing people say, well, was it still called a little black Afro? You didn’t call it a little black shaved head?

You didn’t call it a little black, it’s so funny. You’re so funny. I don’t know, it’s just, it’s like when people are like, Luke, I’m your father.

I’m like, ha, ha, ha.

[Phil Rickaby]
Like, how original are you? Because you haven’t heard that.

[Luke Reece]
I’ve never heard that before. They said hashtag no fro. Hashtag.

[Phil Rickaby]
Hashtag no fro.

[Luke Reece]
I don’t know.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s like, I don’t know.

[Luke Reece]
Little black no fro.

[Phil Rickaby]
You don’t just change anymore.

[Luke Reece]
No, no, no, no, no. I’ll have to change, I’ll have to change the artists we work with to just have less hair.

[Phil Rickaby]
Just less hair?

[Luke Reece]
Yeah. I’m sorry, this year we’re only working with people with bald heads.

[Phil Rickaby]
So when you are a man or a woman.

[Luke Reece]
That’s our next season.

[Phil Rickaby]
Next season, everybody’s shaved head. Anyway, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks so much for talking with me today.

This has been awesome.

[Luke Reece]
Thanks for inviting me into this study pod.