Nicole Wilson & Alexander Offord: Good Old Neon Theatre

Good Old Neon is a theatre and performance company committed to interrogating moral, social, and political paradoxes by integrating avant-garde aesthetics with traditional storytelling. Since its founding in 2013, Good Old Neon has mounted four productions, each of which has received universal critical acclaim, but then of course what do critics know anyway?

Good Old Neon Presents Dennis Potter’s Blue Remembered Hills February 13-24th at Artscape Youngplace.

http://goodoldneon.ca/
Twitter: @gontheatre
Instagram: gontheatre
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/goodoldneontheatre/

Alexander Offord

Alexander Offord is a writer, director, performer, &c. His written work includes the plays The Hystericon, Potosí, and the upcoming Donald Trump-inspired Willy Loman’s America, as well as numerous essays and articles for publications as diverse as #CdnCult Times, BlogTO, The Literary Review of Canada, and his own blog, alexanderofford.com. He is periodically involved with various kinds of political agitation. He was born in Montreal and will most likely die here, in Toronto.

http://alexanderofford.com/
Twitter: @offordwrites

Nicole Wilson

Nicole is a Toronto-based actor, director, and improviser who recently won a People’s Choice My Theatre Award for her portrayal of LeBlanc in the 2014 Toronto Fringe Production Potosí. She holds a diploma in Theatre Performance from George Brown Theatre School and two Honours degrees in Pure and Applied Mathematics from the University of Waterloo. She also teaches acting and improv across the city and runs a math tutoring business which you can find out more about at www.themathroom.ca. Favourite recent credits include: Kim in Mixed Messages (Mixed Company Theatre), Jaquenette in Love’s Labours Lost (Dauntless city Theatre), Pattie in Brimstone and Treacle (Precisely Peter Productions), Lady Bracknell in The Importance of Being Earnest (Hart House), Nina in The Seagull (Chekhov Collective), Catherine in Waiting for the Parade (Jordan Pettle), and Octavia in All for Love (Jeannette Lambermont-Morey).

http://www.themathroom.ca/
Twitter: @N_M_Wilson

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Transcript

Welcome to episode 60 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre, featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.

You can find Stageworthy on Facebook and Twitter at stageworthypod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. If you like the podcast, I hope you’ll subscribe on iTunes or Google Music or whatever podcast app you use, and consider leaving a comment or rating. Alexander Offord and Nicole Wilson are the co-artistic directors of Good Old Neon Theatre in Toronto. Good Old Neon’s production of Blue Remembered Hills runs February 13 to 24 at Artscape Youngplace.

Alexander, Nicole, thank you for coming on. I think I want to start with the name of your company, Good Old Neon, and where does that name come from? It comes from a short story by David Foster Wallace of the same name. Okay.

Yeah. Why did you choose that name for your company? Do you want the real answer, or do you want the really creative answer that I’ve invented? I, of course, want the real answer. The real answer.

If you had just given me the bullshit one and not said, do you want the real answer? Okay, the bullshit answer is great, but I now want the real one. Oh, the real answer is because when we applied to the Toronto Fringe in 2013, I didn’t have a company at all, and so it was a name that I thought sounded cool, and that was the name. It does.

It sounds pretty cool. But now, of course, we’ve incorporated the themes of the story of certain things to do with our mandate in certain ways. It’s funny because I’m just thinking about how many theatre company names are born out of that desperation.

Oh, totally. I remember a company years ago called Spent the Rent. Also, it’s like, what are we going to… Bald Ego, I remember, was a company name that I loved.

All these names are just like, oh, I need something. I did that. For my Fringe application this year, I was racking my brain.

I went with Too Many Notebooks is what I ended up with. It’s the best way. It’s the best way.

Nicole’s suggestion was Raw Sushi. I think that’s a hilarious name. Which is… I still regret that that’s not our name.

I am going to agree with you that that is a hilarious name. I wonder what that says about a company. Well, if we ever undergo rebranding, it’ll be Raw Sushi.

It’ll be Raw Sushi. All right. I had an impromptu called Raw Sushi once.

Tangerine. Oh, my God. Would it be called Tangerine? No, when the bank became Tangerine.

Okay, yes, exactly. Before it was IRG. Yes, of course.

So, I want to ask each of you about, individually, while we’re sitting together, about what it is that drew you to theatre. Now, Nicole, I know that you came to theatre via math. Kind of.

Which is… I’ve always been fascinated by that story. So, I’d just love to start with you and then we’ll go over to you. Yeah, so, okay.

Yes. So, I did math. And I always wanted to do performance, but my family was really poor.

So, I actually wanted to do music when I was young. And yeah, essentially, in OAC, I shouldn’t have said that. But yeah, when I was in OAC… For the record, I’m not as old as you.

It was… It actually came to… I applied to, you know, like 10 universities, because I thought I wouldn’t get in. And for performance, for music performance and math. And I was like, which one will give me a career that allows me to make money? Math.

And so, I did math. That’s it, like, that’s legit. I mean, I also loved it, yada, yada.

And then, in my final year at Waterloo, I kind of did my degrees in like a weird reverse order. So, I had a bunch of free time. So, I took some acting courses just for fun, because I was doing like the frosh play.

And I was like, whoa, this is better. Like, this is more right. But I still had student loans to pay off.

So, yeah, yeah. So, I worked in math for three years. But I always had it kind of in the back of my head that I would go back to that.

And I actually started doing improv. And that’s what really led me to it. So, I started doing improv at Bad Dog Theatre.

And then at, oh, what was it called? The company that did Harold’s, that they’re gone now. Impatient. Yeah, Impatient Theatre.

And then I started coaching it. And then I started teaching it. And then I was doing it seven days a week.

And I was like, oh, okay. And I had a boss at the time who let me, his wife was like a singer or something in the States. So, he was like, yeah, you can take eight weeks off and do full-time improv.

Yeah, it was crazy. It was bizarre. I just was really lucky.

And so, then I did that. And I wanted to wait another year to, you know, make enough money to go to theatre school. But I was like, nope, can’t wait anymore.

And then I just went to theatre school. So, was that a difficult decision at all? No, it actually wasn’t. I think the reason why I’m asking is not like, because, you know, you were like being drawn to this thing.

Was there an idea of like giving up the time that you’d put into it before, giving up like a certain amount of money that you expected or? Definitely. I mean, like financially, it was ridiculously difficult because, I mean, I actually worked through theatre school, which was insane. Because I would work from like midnight to four from home.

It was really fucked up. I shouldn’t have said that. It was really messed up.

No. Yeah. I’ve done the George Brown course.

Yeah. I know how intense that course is. I don’t know how you, I don’t know, stayed awake.

Well, like I didn’t. I just, sometimes I pretended I was working and they paid me anyways, you know, because I had established myself well enough when I was actually working. So I was kind of riding on that, knowing that I was going to be quitting anyway, which is like really not great.

Well, I mean, don’t, the moors are. But yeah, she’s kind of being a pain in the butt. That’s right.

Our cat. But yeah, and then, so that was difficult only because like, I, you know, had, as I say, like my family was not very well off and like, I wanted to be able to help them. And I was able to when I was working and obviously, and less able to now.

So in that sense, for sure. It’s really interesting in terms of like, you know, you worked so long at this other thing and then gave it up. It’s so, it’s certainly true to an extent, but I still use it in my Joe job.

Yeah. Because my Joe job is tutoring math. So I don’t regret doing it.

Do you know what I mean? Like I don’t regret doing math because it actually allows me to have a lot more flexibility than other actors I know. So it’s interesting because I think, you know, asking you about, about that question is sort of like one of those, the idea of regretting. Yeah.

Something like that is more, I think something that, like if I was in my early thirties, I would feel, oh, I wasted. Yeah. This time.

Yeah. Whereas now, if I was to do that, I’d be more like, I learned a lot in that. And that sort of like made me who I am now.

Yeah. I think that’s really accurate. And it’s really interesting, actually.

This is kind of tangentially related, but it’s funny. So when I first went to George Brown, it was actually so scary because the math world is primarily men, right? Yeah. So then I go to George Brown, our class was very female heavy.

Not uncommon. And it was like, I actually don’t know how to interact with this many vaginas in the room. Like it was, it was really stressful.

No, the first year it was, it was crazy because the math world is so direct. And like, it’s, it is, I guess, insensitive, but people don’t think of it that way. They just think they’re being straight up.

Whereas if you’re like that in theatre, it’s like with not, I shouldn’t generalize, but in theatre school, especially where people’s feelings and emotions are in a very fragile place, it was really tricky. Yeah. One of my best friends thought I was a crazy bitch for the first year.

Was that just because of how direct you were? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like we’ve talked about it now and it was like actually quite an extreme thing. Cause I, and I was like, why is this person crying? I don’t understand, but now I’m the one crying. So yeah.

But that’s cause you’re marrying me. No, no. That’s, yeah.

Tears of joy. So that’s that. Yeah.

Kind of a crazy journey when it didn’t feel that severe of a change, but I guess it was. Yeah. I, it always struck me as a, like, I think when I heard, oh, I did math and then I did theatre.

It was always like, yeah, it’s an interesting thing. I think there is a stronger relationship than people think. Like if you can actually examine what’s going on in a logical way.

And then of course, afterwards, like throw that to the side and, and do the other work, but it can be, it can clarify things in a, in a nice way, you know, which is a very George Brown thing. Like, you know, analyzing. Yes.

Kind of thing. Right. But yeah.

All that. All those hours and hours of text work that you then never do. Yeah.

I mean, I mean, wouldn’t, I mean, wouldn’t you love to be able to do that with the scripts and it’s just almost never any time for that. Yeah, true. Alexander, what, what was it that brought you to theatre? Uh, well, I had kind of the total opposite experience, um, in that I don’t have any other skills, um, or education.

Um, I, um, it, I feel like I’m one of those, it’s one of those things where it’s like, I actually liked the idea of theatre more so than I liked theatre. And it’s like only as I’ve become older that I’ve actually liked the theatre. Like when I went to theatre school, I think I didn’t really know or understand anything about the theatre or really enjoy it.

Did you think that you did or did, were you? I think that I, I think that I thought, I think that I thought of that. I did. Um, like, I think, I think when I was younger, cause I went to like a hoity toity kind of arts high school.

And like, I think when I was younger, I really liked attention and people watching me and clapping. And now I think that doesn’t interest me as much anymore. And I don’t know.

I feel like, I feel like I have a relationship with theatre now that I would, the reasons that I’m interested in theatre now are not the reasons I was interested in theatre when I first got into it. Yeah. Just to try to like, maybe delve a little deeper on that.

Um, just when you were trying to go into theatre, like what was it that drew you to it? Was it just, was it the attention? Was it? Yeah. Like, it sounds really horrible to admit out loud, but I feel like they’re kind of, like, I feel like, uh, like if I really introspect and I’m, and I think seriously about like my ability to be serious and intellectual and find value in theatre as an art form on its own. I feel like vanity was probably a much bigger motivating force for me then.

I think that’s almost always the case, to be honest. Oh no, I actually have to agree with you. Yeah.

I think that a lot of us, uh, and you know, I don’t think everybody would admit to this, but I think that generally a lot of us come to it from either we are drawn to that temporary family that’s created when you do a show or, and I mean, we all love the applause. For sure. Like, come on.

The laughter, like for sure. Drug, right? Yeah. So I think that, that we often, like, those are the things, those are our gateways.

Right. Yeah. A lot of times.

Um, yeah, I think that’s probably true. But, and I mean, I know for me, when I went to theatre school, um, it was, uh, uh, quite an awakening, like to be put through that much work and to, to sort of like realize how much it is and what theatre is. Because all I really knew before that was, um, what it was like in theatre and a couple of community theatre shows, like high school and community theatre shows.

Yeah. And how thankless it actually is. Yeah.

You know, like, cause like before you do it professionally, you’re kind of like the biggest fish in the pond. And then you realize how tiny the pond is and how much bigger the lake is. Yeah.

And because once you, once you’re out there trying to do it professionally, you and a whole lot of other people who can do exactly what you can do. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, when you were in theatre school, when did that, when did what theatre could be hit or did it not come into play while you were at theatre school? I don’t know that I could pinpoint it precisely. I think it probably came around the time. I’ve always been a writer, like I’ve always written things, but I hadn’t really written a play before.

Um, I wrote the play that Good Old Neon came about through, which was the hystericon, which we did, um, in 2013. And that was like the first time I’d written a real play and I directed a real play. I think it was probably that experience more than anything, um, approaching it from a writer and a director and seeing it, I guess, seeing the value of the show and the production rather than me and my own performance, seeing it as something that’s larger than myself, I guess.

I’ve never really had, I’ve never really thought about it until you’ve asked me this question. Yeah. It’s an interesting question.

We often don’t. Yeah. To ask people is why, um, so the two of you met in theatres at George Brown.

Yes, we did. We didn’t, we, we didn’t really talk that much at George Brown apart from like maybe two or three arguments. She always started the arguments.

Um, debatable, but yeah, it was actually a good thing in the end because, you know, relationships that start in George Brown are often not. I don’t know of any that have continued. I do.

I know really. Yeah. Fraser and his wife, his name, I can’t remember.

And Harmony and Kevin, I think. And Harmony and Kevin. Yeah.

No, I know people who went to theatre, who went to George Brown and later on got to me. Yeah. Yeah.

No, these, these are people who, but yeah, it would have been like not good. I mean, we were in separate years as well. That does help a little bit, but not much.

Not much, but yeah, Alexander was the year below me. So, but yeah, we, we actually, um, we better say his name, Scott Garland kind of getting name checked, kind of brought us together. We, we did a show, the fringe after I graduated.

So in 2012 called a madhouse dramedy by Scott Garland. That was pretty Scott. And, uh, he, yeah, actually it was really funny because at first I was supposed to play a different part.

Alexander wasn’t supposed to be in the show. And then I basically begged Scott to let me play the other part because I liked it more. And then Alexander took the husband role.

So we ended up playing husband and wife. And then, um, yeah, we were friends for a very short period. And then we, uh, we started dating.

Did you finish the show before you started dating? Yeah. Yeah. But not much.

You know what? That that’s actually so important. I think. Yeah.

Is that just like theatre school? Romance is almost never last. There’s something about that during the show, the show showmance. Yeah.

Never really lost. Well, and we all, it was always actually Alexander, Scott and I, he would go out during the show and he was our chaperone. He was our chaperone.

That’s good. That’s good. Yeah.

We kind of got close during that, which is, and then we just started making theatre together almost right away because we realized, Oh my God, we actually have the same aesthetic and the same interests. Is that interesting? Because of all the arguments, like when you were arguing, were you arguing about theatre and stuff like that? Or were you arguing about bullshit stuff? No, she was usually arguing with me about, uh, belief or non-belief in God. She asked me things like, have I ever watched someone die? I, he likes to, that’s the true thing.

That happened after a while. Yeah. No, no, we, we never really argued about theatre.

The thing that we always tell people because people very rarely believe us is that to a large extent, our romantic relationship is built on our creative relationship rather than the other way around. Like part of the reason that we’re kind of compatible as a couple is because we are very simpatico as artists. I think that’s, that is very important because if you’re not, then a huge part of your life is at odds with your romantic.

Exactly. And it gets, and it gets weird, especially if you’re both artists. Cause it’s like at a certain point you have to ask why you’re not working together.

Yeah. Yeah. So that first show that you did, it was the hysterical.

Yes. Yeah. I remember seeing that.

And, um, I remember that. And so after that show, like, did you write that for the fringe or had you written that and then you decided to go to the fringe? No, I wrote it. I wrote it for the fringe.

I got into the fringe before it was finished. But you had a show in mind. I had a, I had an idea of a thing in mind.

Yeah. There’s more than something. You know, I sometimes wonder if it’s better to go in with nothing just cause I’ve had my heart broken so many times.

Oh, I know. I know. It’s just the worst to, to show up and like, cause you know, you feel like I’m going to go cause I’m going to be there when they call my number.

Exactly. I’ve never gotten in seven times. Hmm.

It’s devastating. I haven’t in many, many years. Yeah.

I actually originally didn’t get into the Hamilton fringe. Oh, you guys didn’t? I was on a little waiting list, but didn’t even know it because they didn’t announce their waiting list. Whoa.

And so like on last year, December 22nd, they said, Hey, we have a spot. Do you want it? And I said, yes. Oh, that’s awesome though.

That’s kind of amazing though. That is. But again, I have never been in the Toronto fringe.

I’ve never been drawn myself. Yeah. Keystone has.

Right. Twice, once. And I’ve never been on the waiting list.

Yeah. So. No, me neither.

It’s like, but you know, when you look at the other people are like, it’s so fixed, but it’s not, if you look at those odds, they are not good. They’re not good. They’re not good.

So it’s like, it’s like, although I love fringe and I love the idea of fringe, it’s like, we need other. Yeah. You can’t put all your eggs in that basket.

You can’t. No, you couldn’t. Which is why we need, I’m so upset about what’s happening with the storefront and what happened with unit.

102. Yeah. And then the coal mine before that.

Coal mine is. Oh no. Theatrical, side mart, theatrical chemistry.

That’s what I’m talking about. Oh, that was heartbreaking. Because there, here’s all these, these, these affordable, great spaces going away.

Um, and it, just to, just to, um, I’m tangent man. Tangent. We love tangents.

The second show that you did for fringe was. That was Potosi. Potosi.

Yeah. Um, was that one that you had written and then went into fringe or was that. Well, I had some, I submitted it to the new play contest, which it, which it won, which is why we got into the fringe.

We bypassed the lottery. That’s a great way to go in. Yeah.

Um, so yeah, that one, I, I had written and like, I wrote the part specifically for Nicole and like, yeah, it would like that one. I actually kind of wrote it specifically for that contest. I was like, oh, this would be a good fringe show.

Are there specific things? Was it a 90 minute? That’s hilarious. Yeah. You’re thinking was, this would be a good fringe show.

Yeah. That’s absurd. Sorry.

I just have to. What? It’s like, what was it that made it a good fringe? Well, I think I was, I think at the time I was a little naive about the shows that typically get done at the fringe. Cause for me, someone says, oh, it’s a non-juried lottery and you get all this, um, you know, this discounted space and all this stuff.

And I’m like, great. People must just be like pulling dead things out of their vaginas on stage all the time and killing each other. Like it must be like a total fucking amazing avant-garde bloodbath on the fringe.

And it’s not, it’s not really that as it turns out, but I thought it was my thinking. I was like, oh, this is a great, it’s like, you know, it’s a very weird show. It’s kind of tonally confusing and there’s a lot going on.

What interests me about that is that, is that that kind of stuff is probably very much Montreal fringe material. Oh really? Oh Montreal fringe. If you ever looked through the program for Montreal fringe, it’s always like.

About 80%, I guess it’s 75% sex. Yeah. Uh, and there’s maybe a little bit of violence thrown in, but like, they like, it’s, I think that’s probably more around.

Maybe that’s where we should go. I don’t know. I don’t know if Amy would appreciate me saying that, but it’s like Montreal has, I mean, every fringe is different.

Yeah. Yeah. I don’t know if you’ve been at other ones, but, um, every fringe is different, but that what you’re describing is probably a little more, uh, Montreal-y.

I know that in a lot of other fringes, they love, uh, artistry and, uh, some, you know, just silly comedies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those sorts of stuff.

Yeah. But you know, there’s a lot of, a lot of like beautiful artists, artistry stuff as well. Um, for Potosi, um, you, did you guys remount that? We did.

We did. Last November. We did it last November and it was quite an experience.

What was it like remounting something from, from Fringe? It was, uh, okay. The Fringe, okay. So the Fringe production, how long did we rehearse, darling? Like three weeks? Something like that, I think.

It felt like a day. Like this play is so massive as an actor. It’s just like, it’s such a, it’s crazy.

It’s my favorite play in the whole world, Potosi, but like, it’s hard. And so in Fringe, the other actors and I also talked about this. It really felt like we didn’t know what the fuck we were doing.

We were like, okay, here’s some crazy shit happening. Like there wasn’t, we didn’t have the time to connect. You know what I mean? So the remount was amazing because we were actually able to go, oh, we know, like we understand this crazy script that Alexander wrote.

So now we can spend time understanding the characters. It was challenging in that we did it at Artscape Youngplace. That is, is that space? I mean, I love this space, but it is.

It’s challenging. It’s far. Yeah.

But I did a poll on Facebook recently and everyone says they’d rather go to the West than the East. That’s weird. It is weird.

Well, I think there’s, but you know, I think it depends on, because I know if you look at like the storefront and that community, it’s all West. Yes. So if you’re, if you’re, if you’re a lot of the Andy that you know is out there, then they’ll, then they’ll go that far.

It all depends on how West and how easy it is to get to a spot. Yeah. It’s super tricky.

It’s really tricky. I don’t know what the perfect space is because that’s always like one of those debates is how do you choose a space? What was it? What was it? Was the space at the Artscape Youngplace, was that challenging or was getting people there challenging or was it? Both. Like the space I thought was a lot better than when we originally did it at the Tarragon main space, which is a great space, but for this particular show, it was much better to have an intimate space.

We actually had one show, our smallest house had four people or five people and like, this is a big play, right? And we were all going, oh my God, how are we going to fucking do this thing? Like, how are we going to do this? It was our best show. It was our best show because it was intimate and it was just, it’s the whole, I wouldn’t say filmic because a lot of it is crazy over the top, but it allows for some of that very subtle kind of play. But yeah, the room just had, we had one row of chairs around the room.

So it was like, you were right there. You were right there. It was definitely hard to get people out there.

It was really, really hard. Although to be honest with you, I sort of feel like it’s just hard to get people to go to the theatre in general. And I think that the merits or demerits of particular locations is less of a factor perhaps.

I kind of agree with you because I think we spent a lot of time worrying about this space. Yeah. But it’s hard to get people out to things.

Totally. And this is the great debate that’s been going on for a long time is how do you get people out to a show? Yeah. And man, if I could figure that out, I’d bottle it.

Like, yeah. Well, we’re taking a turn with our next show in doing Instagram because we’re like, okay. Maybe the Instagram thing will work.

Let’s do pictures, you know? Are you hashtagging those pictures? We are. We’re hashtagging the shit out of them. That’s good.

That’s hashtag neon hills. I mean, well, let’s talk about the show. Okay.

It’s called what? It’s called Blue Remembered Hills. Blue Remembered Hills. By Dennis Potter.

Okay. What is that show about? Okay. So whenever I’m asked that question, I tend to talk about the philosophical nature of the show because that’s what I care about.

And he yells at me. So what we’re going to do, if you don’t mind, is I’m going to talk about the philosophical nature of the show and then Alexander can summarize. Can I suggest that I go first? You go first.

Okay. Okay. Let’s do the reverse.

Blue Remembered Hills is a play that was, it’s about a group of children, prepubescent children. It was originally set in England in 1943 at the height of rationing and the Second World War. And they’re basically living in the countryside, kind of starving and miserable.

And they, there’s no, there’s no real plot. It’s, it’s like, I mean, there’s a, there’s a storyline, but it’s, it’s, you know, they just kind of chase a squirrel and bully each other and talk. But all the children are played by grownups.

And we, or I should say, Nicole, miraculously, because she’s directing it, has taken that idea and completely fucked it up. So. Like Dennis Potter would be rolling around in his grave if that were possible.

Like maybe. But it’s totally badass. Um, all right.

Let’s talk about the philosophical angle and then I have a question. Okay. So what the show’s really about is… Imagine being told this without context though.

I’d be like, great. Check, check. No, because people would, this is what I would tell people in the auditions.

Anyway, it’s about human beings inflicting either emotional or physical pain on one another, psychological torture of sorts. In a way that was perhaps accidental or subconscious, maybe no subconscious is the wrong word. Non, not actively, right.

In a passive way. And then figuring out how to deal with it when they realize what they’ve done. You know, not, not even figuring out, but kind of looking at how do people deal with it? What do they do? That’s what I think the play is really about.

Yeah. Questions. Yeah.

Um, now when you were describing Alexander about how, uh, it’s, it’s, uh, the characters are prepubescent, uh, like children. My first thought is how dangerous that is. I recently saw a show at a factory theatre where, uh, a grown person was playing somebody who was supposed to be nine years old.

Um, and it doesn’t work. No, it’s horrible. It doesn’t work.

And it doesn’t work. And I sort of said to the person I went to see it with, they could have avoided that if that character was simply aged a few years. So they didn’t behave like that.

If they were 13 years old and or 12 years old, then I could have believed it. But when a grownup is trying to behave like a seven or eight year old, it’s just, they seem like they’re developmentally handicapped rather than children. So how are you handling that in this show? So I’m really happy you asked this question because this is since day one, this is the very first thing that came up.

And the thing that I said was, we’re not playing these as children. You’re not children. And a couple of people went, but it says it like right here, if you do, you know, the script analysis, it says that I’m seven years old and I’m in grade one.

I’m like, great, great, great. But in terms of everything else, like the way that we play it, we don’t, the, the, we don’t have to play children, right? All that. What does that mean? Like you can’t really play a child, right? All that happens is you put on a silly voice and do some kind of really generalized physical stuff.

You know what I mean? So it was a challenge actually to get that idea across because we’re keeping the references in the script. So the grade one, grade two references. But if, as far as I’m concerned, if people just play the age they are under the given circumstances, it’s in the, that fits in the text.

So what Dennis Potter perhaps wanted, or who gives a fuck really what he wanted, but like what we want, you know, what the audience is going to take away is that they’re kids, but they won’t go, why is this person being an asshole talking with a stupid voice? Do you know what I mean? Yes. You know, interestingly, there’s a bit of a precedent for that sort of thing. If you look at Charles Schulz’s Peanuts, because they didn’t behave like children.

They spoke like adults. This is true. And yet they were children, in fact, right to be young children.

And that still is, people buy that. So it sort of works. I think it’s totally necessary.

So what drew you to this particular play? Well, actually I acted in a Dennis Potter play last year, Brimstone and Treacle. It was my favorite part I ever played. I had two months.

And Alexander is clearing his throat. Oh, other than Potosi. I was wondering when you were going to catch on, but I wasn’t going to help you.

No, actually, they are both my favorite parts in very different ways. But I was really drawn to his work. And then I happened to be at U of T at Hardhouse and they had a book sale.

I roamed around and I found a collection of Dennis Potter plays right before we were trying to decide what to do this year. Read it. And I was like, oh my God, yes.

Yes. This is a weird fucking play that we can do a lot with. And then he read it and said, no, no.

And then we kind of realized that. I don’t remember it quite happening that way. Because Alexander was like, why do you want to do this wanky play in dialect and blah, blah.

I’m like, why would I ever? Of course I don’t want to do it. It was one of many classic examples of me is shamefully underestimating my beautiful wife. Because when I read it, I was like, oh, God, I don’t want to do a play with people putting on silly accents.

It reads that way. It certainly does. Because he really writes in bizarro.

He writes in the dialect, but it’s kind of his own. He manipulates it in a really weird way in the text. As co-artistic directors of Girl of Neon, in situations like that, how do you resolve a situation where one says yes and one says no? Eventually, I realized that I’m wrong and we move forward.

The truth is, it doesn’t happen that often, which is why for a while we had a third partner because we were like, we need someone to give us a little push and pull. It’s not great that we agree all the time. You know what I mean? It’s not always productive to always agree.

Agree. No, because then you sort of get into the echo chambers. Yeah, exactly.

You know, challenging each other. Yeah, and we are very, very simpatico to the point where we kind of need that. But essentially, our partner just had other things he wanted to focus on.

So we’re trying to find a third partner if anyone is listening. Sure. No, I mean, yes.

Yes, but yeah. In terms of this show, so it opens in February. Yeah.

And where are you performing it? Artscape Youngplace. Our last show we did at the Terragon, but we don’t have the benefits of getting that discounted space anymore. It’s booked up.

So we’re back at Artscape Youngplace. Well, I mean, it’s expensive. Yes.

Finding a space is super expensive. Um, so I don’t know, like, it’s just especially with when we’re losing a lot of the independent spaces and people. So I remember having to go the only place that you could go really off the university campus because reviewers wouldn’t go to the university campus for a while.

Like if it was at a university theatre, it wouldn’t go. Yeah. A lot of times because it was like, it’s a university show.

We don’t need to review that. Um, but, you know, other of the other spaces you could only go in Toronto to like, um, Factory or Terragon or Pasadena. Those were your indie spaces and they’re fucking expensive.

And they’re expensive. They’re really expensive. Holy shit.

Yeah. Well, even some of the spaces that are opening that are like, quote unquote, indie now are still ridiculous. No, I mean, it’s, it’s hard to find hard to find space.

Um, do you, I mean, do you have a lot of freedom in that space? Cause it’s a studio, right? Um, do you have like, is there, is there more freedom that you would have there in terms of space and things that you can do there than in other places? Um, yes and no. I would say, um, we, the, the problem or the lack of freedom that comes with that space is you have to put the set away every night. Oh, cause you spent the spaces used during the day.

That’s right. That’s the hard thing. And during Potosi, that was tough, but we managed it.

Um, so this time we’re actually going with the space, like the space is all white. And so we’re doing an entirely white show and kind of treating it as a canvas and seeing in this, you know, this is a kind of like right on the nose, but in the way that the characters start out as kind of young, innocent, naive, what happens to them over the show? Visually, we’re starting with a blank canvas and seeing what happens to it over the course of the show, you know, um, to, to try to incorporate it. Yeah.

What, what do you think Sand about freedom or challenges with the space? Yeah, that’s a, yeah, I, I don’t know that the thing is like, I don’t know that we, uh, significantly limit our artistic ideas because of the space. No, I don’t. I think we modify them for sure.

We certainly modify them. Yeah. But we try to go with it, like rather than just force it to work.

Yeah. We kind of forced Potosi to work in that space a little bit. And this one, I think is going to be, it’s going to sit more organically in that, in that space.

Limitations are always interesting. Like the limitation of the space can actually be more creative. Like getting around that can be more creative than having like all of the show in the world.

Yeah. So I sometimes think that, you know, some of the shows where you’ve got like the unlimited budget, like you take a little bit of that away and then how much more brilliant could it be? No, that’s the, that’s the white stripes thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so this, this show, um, you, you’ve got seven actors in this one, which is like the largest show.

Largest show we’ve ever done. Yeah. Um, what’s it like working with a larger number of people? Aside from scheduling, aside from scheduling is always going to be an issue.

Like the more people you have, the harder that gets. Right. Yeah.

Aside from the logistics, it’s awesome. Yeah. I love it.

The cast is awesome. Really, really talented people. Um, far more talented than I am.

Really lovely to be around. Are they people that you knew or did you like audition and find people who you didn’t know? Well, here’s the thing. We auditioned and, uh, it was auditions were interesting.

We had a, quite a mixed bag, like quite extremes, um, in terms of experience and all that. And we were hoping to see more people, but a lot of people submitted long after we had done the auditions. Yeah.

Um, but for us, like, I, I think it’s really important. Like we really want to work with new people. So we, we really tried to, you know, get, get like posting on Facebook and eDrive and all that stuff.

Um, so I would say we, in the end, how many people are new? One, two. I mean, we’ve not worked with, I’ve only worked with two of these people. Oh, I guess three technically.

Um, I didn’t count Alexander, but, but, but we know we, like, we did know some of these people from before. Yeah. There’s some people that we’ve known, but haven’t worked with before.

Some people had no idea who they were and never worked with them and some people that we’ve worked with. It’s kind of a mix. It’s a nice mix.

And interestingly enough, it was much more challenging to find female actors than male actors, which really surprised me because yeah, there are only two female roles and there were five male roles. And originally we were talking about, you know, cross gender casting and all that stuff. And it ended up being really difficult to fill the female parts.

Was that because of the people who, like, people weren’t coming, weren’t auditioning for it? Yeah. Either it was a combo of people, not, not as many females submitting and not as, you know, also just like working style, like in the room that for whatever reason, the, some of the women we did see, it just, we weren’t compatible with them. Um, but yeah, it was really shocking to me.

Like I thought that was going to be an easy tech check. Oh, that, I mean, that I’m, I’m a little bit surprised at it. Cause I mean, most, a lot of shows that I know when they’re doing auditions are like, all right, I have two female roles.

Those are, those are easy. And I have these other male roles and those are the hard ones, but that’s. And we’re thinking maybe like, I’m wondering if it’s perhaps that people who knew us thought, oh, I won’t submit because I know them.

And if they wanted me to be in it, we would just ask, you know, which we didn’t, we didn’t really. We never audition people whose work we know, but we do. Call them in for a callback.

Yeah. If they’re, if they express interest, we’ll be like, great. Come to the callbacks.

Right. Um, so. We won’t make them do a monologue for us.

Like, cause that’s just silly and wanky, but, uh, but, but yeah. So, you know, there, there were two people that we knew who, who submitted and who came to the callbacks. Um, but yeah, there weren’t.

And I’m wondering if that’s why, because just a lot of the women that we know were like, oh, they, they are like, oh, that like, maybe they think that we deliberately passed. Yeah. I don’t know.

It was really, uh, it’s a thing that I. Makes me aware. And for the next time we audition, I would like to include on the call. Like if you know us, please still submit.

You know, interesting that there’s a lot of theatres that actually like include a line like that. Like, um, I’ve seen things like that on like general auditions for, uh, like some of the theatres around Toronto factory, things like that. Yeah.

So some of the summer stock would do that too. Like, you know, if we know your work, let us know. Yeah.

Yeah. That sort of fissure. So I, and I suspect that’s the reason.

What are the audition process? Like, do you, when somebody comes in and they do a monologue for you, are you, do you just listen to the monologue and decide whether you want to see them again? Or do you like press them? Do you like, like, do you like try to direct them? I spend way too long in auditions. Like it’s such a problem. It’s like, it’s basically like a working 30 minutes a person.

It’s long, but, but it’s worth it to me. Like even people who I feel like probably, no, it’s probably no, I still think it’s worth it because people are really different when they’re directed, like really, really different. And also for me, I don’t really care about your monologue.

Like, I don’t, you know, like our audition call is do any monologue you want. We don’t care about the gender, the age, the style. I don’t care.

Right. It’s like, can you take direction? And then we usually, I say we, I, I mean, I don’t know how Alexandra auditions, but I usually give them quite an extreme direction just to see if they can take it. It usually goes countertext.

You know? Yeah. And then the callbacks, we did like a little bit of a physical kind of movement piece. Um, and then, and then script just like a partner reads.

Yeah. Alexander, how do you, do you approach, uh, auditions? Um, I cast basically on, based on the applicant’s willingness to have sex with me. Yeah, that makes sense.

So you only get to marry one of those people though. Uh, no, I, I think, I think Nicole and I audition really, really similarly. I also spend way too much time directing people as people have been in the audition room with me now.

Um, cause like, yeah, like, you know, the whole monologue thing, it’s like, it’s the worst possible way to audition, but no one can think of a better way to do it. I hear that all the time. You know, like.

It’s like, everybody who auditions says basically the same thing. It’s the worst thing, but I don’t know what else. Well, pandemic theatre has, like, I had my best audition ever with them and they, what they do is they ask you to do a monologue, but they also ask you to do a silent piece and that’s all they say.

And I was like. That can be challenging because people may not have time to prepare something. Yeah, but if they, the thing is, as long as everyone’s getting the same notice.

Yeah, that’s fair. Nobody has time, right? Like it’s still, it’s, it’s, I, I would, we would have liked to have done it. I really wanted to do something like that with this show, but we just didn’t have time in terms of, we were like, oh, we have to cast now, you know? But yeah, I thought that was a great thing that they did.

You know, one thing that, that I didn’t ask you about and that was, because you would mention, you know, where the name Good Old Neon came from and how you eventually molded that into, to fit your mandate, but I didn’t ask. So what is the mandate for Good Old Neon? Nicole’s looking at me. You’re both looking at each other.

Yeah. No, because we need to rehash this. Okay.

Yeah. That’s why we’re looking. Mandates are like bullshitty a lot of the times, right? You know, I’m going to, because I mean, a lot of times mandates, people said they help you clarify and they, they can’t, but a lot of times I feel like they read like the Nuit Blanche artist statement, which really boils down to, I thought it would be cool to put a thing on it.

Yeah. Yeah. Give me, give me the, your, your mandate as close to as you, like your non-bullshit version.

Okay. So the wording, the wording on our website is that we’re a theatre and performance company committed to exploring social, moral, political, and I think metaphysical paradoxes by integrating kind of the techniques of the avant-garde, but with some of its more, some of its like the avant-garde, the European avant-garde can be very cold. Okay, before he tent, I’m just going to finish the sentence by integrating the techniques of the avant-garde with traditional storytelling, period.

Oh, sorry. Yeah. That is true.

I got, I distracted myself. Yeah. So what does that, what does that mean to you? Okay.

Well, I don’t like for me, like, you know, I think a lot about what Peter Honka wrote about theatre, which that it’s no good at providing solutions. It’s at best useful for playing with contradictions. And I think that the double bind and the paradox kind of characterizes a lot of how the world feels to us right now, that there are always two competing views of the truth that are at least as valid as each other.

And that the theatre, because it’s kind of subjunctive by its nature is a good way of exploring those or manifesting them or playing with them. Yeah. And for me, like what I would add is that I think it’s probably what drew us to each other is so Alexander’s the word person and I’m the body person.

So, yeah. So he writes that stuff. And I also want to kind of examine that, but more in a physical way.

So for example, with the current play, like, that’s why we’re trying to put some of the, like, it’s just not an avant-garde play when you read it. And it, you know, it doesn’t, it’s pretty kind of, you know, a bunch of kids and they kill a squirrel, but we’re, we’re trying to do some weird physical stuff. And in a way that I think is not happening very much in the city, in this city, there tends to be a, you know, dance theatre.

That’s great. And kind of, you know, the soul pepper type of theatre, which is great, but there’s not a lot of marrying the two and we’re like, for me, I’m really interested in how can you integrate physical theatre in a way that it doesn’t just look like someone clapping their hands and like doing a weird gesture on top of a line. You know what I mean? Oh, I do.

Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah.

I mean, I work with a company that does silent film on stage, right? Yeah. So I totally get that. Yeah.

I totally get that. Is this something you’ve been able to incorporate with previous things or is this like something that you’re like, this show is the one that you’re really- A little bit in hystericon. Yeah.

Again, this is all kind of developed. Like, yeah, it’s always about for us, like the dialectic of, like, how can we do a thing that is emotionally effective, but also not like a kitchen sink kind of drama. Yeah.

So we’re trying to like, especially I think Nicole, she’s really the, I think you’re better at this than I. What? That’s absurd. Doing like the, what was I saying? I don’t know. Words and sentences, Alexander.

That’s his forte. Because you’re the director. Because I’m the writer.

No, but he is. He is. Like he’s the, he writes on the couch.

You sort of mentioned something about the kitchen sink play. And it’s one of the things that’s sort of been on front of mind for me lately after reading Theatrically Unimpressed. Oh, yeah.

And noticing the drive to tie up all the little pieces in plays as we’re writing now. And make sure that, you know, like literally if there’s a gun on the wall to make sure it’s shot. If this person is angry at something, they struggle to resolve.

People want logical sense of everything. Yes, but do they need it? No. I think I’ve recently been, and this is one of the things that I’ve been struggling with my own writing, is not to do that.

Is to challenge more rather than giving it to people. Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. I think that’s kind of where I was trying to go with my mumblings about Nicole’s work a second ago.

Is that like, it’s what we put on stage can be, can mean something in and of itself. It doesn’t refer to a logic that’s outside of it. Right.

So like when, especially in like dance theatre and so on, like to try and say, oh, this means something other than what it is, which isn’t to say that it’s meaningless, but just that it’s, you can’t. Articulate. You can’t articulate it.

You can’t translate the gesture back into some pre-existing idea. Yeah. And that’s.

It’s expressive. As opposed to articulating. Which is really challenging though.

When like, so far, this piece isn’t even going very extreme. It’s like, you know, little droplets of it, but essentially the ideas were there. And then because of this need from the actors, which I totally get, because I would be the same if I were acting in it, this need to go, well, why this? Why that? Right.

Yeah. Alexander and I spent a day just like going, okay, how to actually put this into words to justify it to the actors. And it’s so funny because it’s like, it doesn’t really matter.

It’s, I, you know, you can feel it like you, that sounds so hokey, but it’s true. Like you, you kind of, when someone does something, you know, we have these like group moments happening in the play, these group kind of vocal and physical choral moments. And it works.

And it’s like, you know, we did little tests of it. I had them do something and I went, yup. Check.

That’s right. And then they’re like, well, why are we doing this? It’s really hard. And you just want to be like, well, because Robert Wilson says so, you know.

No, but like, it’s true. You want to reference those, those directors who ask this of, of performers and that’s fascistic German directors. Do you know what I’m saying? But it’s, it’s in a way though, it actually, I thought brought clarification.

It was helpful to have that pressing because we’re, you know, we can articulate it now, but it’s a, it’s an interesting balance of like, how much do you need to articulate and how much can you go? No, I know this is right. And I’m going to trust that. It can be hard to get actors to just, to go with the, a concept sometimes.

Especially in Canada. Well, I mean, that’s what we’ve been taught, right? Yeah, totally. We’ve been taught like, ask why? If we ask why, what’s the impulse? And sometimes if it’s a heightened language or heightened reality, it’s hard to get across just by saying the reality is heightened here.

Yeah. And it just doesn’t, it doesn’t often, doesn’t fly. Yeah.

Or not even that the reality is heightened, but that what you’re trying to do is not express a reality, right? Like if Nicole says to an actor, okay, for the duration of the show, you’re going to be trying to unlock a box and it’s not meant to be something other than that. Right. That, that as a symbol on stage will have meaning, it’ll have an explosion of associative content for the audience.

Right. But it doesn’t have to be a symbol of something. No, it’s a really tricky, that’s been the hardest part I think of this process so far.

Is that balance. And how, how has it been learning to articulate these things? It’s, it’s been good. This, this is my first time directing a full length play.

And in addition to that, I’m trying to do these kind of strange physical things. So it’s, you know, I’m learning how to, how to direct nicely because I, I can be a total control freak as you know. So I’m trying to learn to be cool and really kind, you know, but it’s, I’ve, we’ve been lucky.

Like the cast is really, I don’t just say that they’re really exceptionally great people to work with. And, you know, like the last rehearsal before all the days I said, there was a point when we were, we were trying to figure something out and it just wasn’t working and it was toward the end of, you know, an eight hour day. And I just said, guys, I don’t know.

So you have to offer something. I believe the precise wording was, I don’t know. I’m empty guys.

Have an idea. Offer something. But, but they did and it worked, you know? So it is the sweet spot of like, okay, be kind.

But at the same time, you kind of have, there’s a point of like, just, you know, trying to get your ducklings to fly on their own. Have an idea. It’s funny.

I did a show years ago where it became so necessary for us to do that because the director was like, well, I never do table work. And so we were like a week before opening and suddenly people were like, so why am I doing this? What was the, what’s my reason for doing this? And she like, we’d never gave us time for that. So we would like have to meet and do it and come up with it.

But it was kind of, I mean, it was too late to do it. We showed that earlier, but the advantage was that we did it. Because you needed to, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Alexander, at the risk of starting an argument, how has, I mean, you’ve directed Nicole before. How is it being directed by somebody that you usually direct? Um, well, actually fine. Like my neurosis about acting has more to do with the fact that like, I haven’t acted in like three years and I had kind of decided internally that I was like retiring and I was like, it was just like kind of like losing it’s hold me.

And then now I’m doing this. Um, so I’m kind of like, oh geez, how do I act? How do people do this? Like, I need to remind myself how to do that. But Nicole’s like great, super easy being directed by her.

Um, cause like, she, again, she’s going to say that she’s not, but she’s a much more talented director than I am. That’s really not true. She has no evidence of that.

You know what I mean? I think there’s evidence. It’s circum, it’s like experiential. Yeah, that’s exactly right.

Um, and I, I would actually believe it. Um, not that I’ve, I’ve never been, so now, now the back peddling starts, but, um, so were you like when you were saying that you were retired, retiring as an actor, not as a theatre creator? Yeah. Yeah.

Like, uh, acting specifically. It’s amazing how it pulls you back in after you take some time away from it sometimes, or did you not, or you’re not given a choice here? I was given, I was given the, that is the wickedest laugh out of there. It’s like, it’s like, it just like uncovered something.

I was given a matter of choice. Um, no, no, I was given a choice and I did. And I did and do really want to do the show and I’m really excited about performing in it, but it is, uh, it gets nerve wracking for me.

Cause like, uh, I feel like I had it at some point. I feel like at one point in my life I was like an okay actor and I was like, I just like, how do I do that again? You know what I mean? What was that? And I think, I think that like 80% of what that is, is thinking that you’re an okay actor. It’s like, you kind of have to be a cocky shit to act well.

I don’t know. Cause sometimes, sometimes I think that I would rather, cause I think that if you’re, if you’re nervous, then, um, like if you’re, if you’re, if you’re like, no, you’re the shit, what effort is there going to be in what you do? If you have doubts, then like, if you doubt, then you’re going to put stuff into it. If you’re just like, I can’t do this.

I think it’s a, yeah, it’s a really weird question. If you have to have, you have to have vulnerabilities for sure. And, and, and that nervous energy, but if it’s too extreme, it’s detrimental, which is what I think you’re getting at.

But there is this thing of like, what I think the cockiness, what I think you mean by that. And what I think it is, is the ability to take when the minute you step on stage and beforehand, you’re probably going to want to run that. I always want to run out of the theatre.

But the minute you step on being able to like, concentrate the doubts, I think that’s all it is. It’s just concentrating. Do you know? See, I don’t see that as cocky.

I see that there’s something about that’s just theatre. It’s cocky in so far as to be in the moment and pursue your objective. You have to think you’re the most important, like on some level, me as my character is the main character of the show.

And I’m the most important person on stage right now, right? Like, yeah, certain way. I think that’s true. You have to think you’re the most important character in the show at all times.

I mean, like, but I think, but, you know, just because that’s what we do in our lives, right? Absolutely. That’s not necessarily cocky. That’s just like, I’m the main character in my story.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I’m the main character in your story. So it’s concentration.

Yeah, yeah. But then also you have to couple that with the knowledge that you’re not the most important character in the story as an actor. Yeah.

You cannot be this douche and ruin the scenes. There is, there is that balance. There is that balance.

So the solution is to do solo shows where you get to be. And that’s exactly right. And so you see, Phil, we have the paradox of acting.

Yes, indeed. And we’ve come by Commodious Vickers. Can I just say one thing on a question you asked earlier? I just want to say, like, you asked how it was being directed by me.

I just want to say that when poor Alexander, like he was in this, the position of having to direct me first when we were dating. That was rough. He’s great to work with, both as a director and an actor.

I’m the horrible one to work with. That’s not true. That’s true.

You can verify that with other people we’ve worked with. Yeah. Yeah.

You kind of know that. I don’t know that. So like, he’s the good one in this pair, but we’ve also learned how to work together now.

That’s one of those important things that you have to do. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Is learn how to work together. Yeah. But I would argue that insofar as you are more, quote, unquote, difficult to work with, it’s because you’re more fulsome and interesting actor than I am.

And therefore, you have a more fulsome and complicated process than I do. There’s a real pattern to the dynamic between the two of you. And that is that Alexander compliments you.

You say that’s not true. And then but he continues to talk over you. It’s a fascinating thing where he’s insistent on giving the compliment and you consistently deny that it’s possible that he could be correct.

Just like it’s amazing and wonderful. We’re almost out of time, which is like not true because it’s a podcast. I can go on for however long.

Yeah. But I’d like to keep it to about an hour. Sure.

In terms of this show, what excites you the most about this show? Just to leave that as the final words. You want to go first, then? Well, many things excite me about it. But I would say that the thing that excites me the most about it is that it’s probably our from my perspective, probably the show that we’ve done that I feel most captures what the aesthetic of the company is.

I feel like it’s in many ways a kind of like from its concept to its execution to the way that it plays with the pre-written text to the way that it looks visually is probably most representative of, I think, the kinds of theatre that Nicole and I want to make. For me, for sure. One is that Alexander’s acting.

I know it sounds really silly, but it’s like he’s like a great, great actor, regardless of what he says. And other people in the cast said that when he first walked in the room, they went, Oh, my God, Alexander, I have always wanted to act with you. But anyway, that I’m really happy about that because it was a bit of a battle when I first wanted him to be in the show.

And the other thing is I’m very afraid of this show, as I am of most shows. But I think the size of it scares me. The fact that I’m directing it scares the fuck right out of me.

And the fact that we have been doing a lot of it ourselves in terms of set design, we’re doing ourselves, all that stuff. That’s very scary, which makes it exciting. There’s something about that idea of being afraid.

There’s the idea of some things that scare you or things that you should dive into. Totally. You have to examine what is it that scares you? Yeah.

Is it that you could get hurt? Or is it that you’re afraid that it could work? And a lot of times the things that scare you, you’re scared because it’s going to be hard. And so it’s better to run into, to just jump into it. Yeah.

Sounds like this has been a really great experience for both of you so far. Yeah, it’s been, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, our last show was challenging and kind of… Well, we’ve never done a non-challenging show. No, I mean in terms of the relationships in the room. We struggled a little bit in that show.

Everyone was amazing. It was just stressful. It was just different types of people.

We were all different people. That’s just one of those… That’s just one of the dangers of theatre. It is.

But this one, thank goodness actually that it isn’t the case, because all the other stuff is challenging. So it’s nice to have the personal relationships be really easy. Awesome.

So yeah. That’s great. Thank you so much, you guys.

Thank you, Phil.