#54 – Nina Lee Aquino
Filipina-Canadian playwright, director, dramaturge, actor, and Artistic Director of Factory Theatre. Nina Lee Aquino completed a Bachelor of Arts in drama at the University of Guelph and a Master of Arts in theatre at the Drama Centre, University of Toronto. She was a founding member and Artistic Director of fu-GEN Asian-Canadian Theatre Company (2002-10), and Associate Artistic Director of Factory Theatre, as well as the Artistic Producer of the CrossCurrents Festival at Factory Theatre. She has also worked for Native Earth Performing Arts. From 2009 to 2013 she was Artistic Director of Cahoots Theatre Projects. In September 2012, she was appointed a member of an interim artistic team with Nigel Shawn Williams at Factory Theatre.
With Nadine Villasin, she co-wrote Miss Orient(ed) ( Carlos Bulosan Theatre 2003, directed by Guillermo Verdecchia) a comedy about a beauty pageant set in the Philippines, which satirizes the idealization of Western standards of attractiveness. In January 2013, her examination of her own family history and the violent politics of the Philippines, Every Letter Counts opened at Factory Theatre (dir. Nigel Shawn Williams).
www.factorytheatre.ca
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Transcript
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Phil Rickaby
Welcome to Episode 55 of Stageworthy, I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre. If you want to be a guest on stage really or just want to drop me a line, you can find stage where the on Facebook and Twitter at stage with a pod. And you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. If you’d like the podcast, I hope you’ll subscribe on iTunes or Google music or whatever podcast app you use, and consider leaving a comment or rating. My guest Nina Lee Aquino is an actor playwright director dramaturg and the artistic director of Factory Theatre.
Nina, thank thank you so much for coming on. You’ve just opened acquiesce. How did that go? By the way? How was the opening?
Nina Lee Aquino
Ah, well, I mean, like anything opening is, I think one of those harrowing, but also exciting days, because I mean, it’s the audience’s, you know, 90% from, you know, the artists community, and then you have the media coming, of course, so, but it’s always, for me, openings are always a rock and roll show, right? Because you do have a very loving, generous, supportive audience. And it’s the beginning of kind of the next level of any performance of the production, right, because the journey, you know, often people think that openings are, you know, the end of winter rehearsals are done, I can no longer give notes as a director, but what I always look forward to, and I always tell my actors on opening night, that, you know, you guys are ready to take this play to the next level. And that’s going to come with, you know, repetition, right, and the organic nature of Theatre, where every day is going to be a different performance and new discoveries are going to be made. And depending on who your audience is, you know, you kind of play off of that. So the play, in many ways, makes these little micro shifts, and it just grows. And so I look forward to kind of seeing it again, in the middle of the run and see how much the production has, you know, not had time, it has time to breathe and settle down and see where it’s at.
Phil Rickaby
I think we sometimes forget about that. Because we’re always so 4k focused on once we open, like, you’re right, we sort of think of that, that’s the end, but then the show always does.
Nina Lee Aquino
And again, you know, most of the things that we learn in rehearsal rehearsal is only three weeks, right. And really, if you think about if you even break it down, you know, the first week is often dedicated to the table war. So lots of talking lots of talking about the play. And then the last two weeks, you know, is the blocking and putting the actors, you know, up on their feet, and, and really kind of testing out the words on the mouth, so and then you have tech, you know, the weak days of trying to marry the technical aspects of the show, the transition from rehearsal hall, so you’ve been kind of rehearsing in this flat space, you know, and in the case of accuracy, you’ve seen it. So you see this, you know, so imaginary things are happening in rehearsal that could go perfect. And then transitioning to the real stage where it’s 10 times bigger, and there are moving parts, that the actors now need to learn in a span of hours. Right. So it’s a lot and so opening cannot be kind of the be all and end all of things. And it’s perfect. And off we go. In fact, you know, some of some of the notes, the performing notes that I’ve given, I wouldn’t be surprised that that finally starts dropping in in the second or third week.
Phil Rickaby
Right. But also, I mean, you have never really usually you have never performed in front of an audience before. That informs what
Nina Lee Aquino
how absolutely, yeah, so for me, my job has always I’ve always looked at my job as a director jury at this point that, you know, I’ll take it to a point where I feel that the actors are confident to receive the next layer of information, which is in techweek, you know, so you can only do so much in the rehearsal hall. And once you’ve kind of outgrown that, that I know that the actors, you know, again, it’s my my quest has never been about perfection, but just the deepening of, you know, the understanding of the world of the play and the characters and all of the arcs. But then when tech comes in, that’s a whole slew of information that they need to receive and integrate into their performances and that’s a lot and that takes time like anything else.
Phil Rickaby
As a director, did you ever find it difficult to let go? Or is that
Nina Lee Aquino
no
I, I have to say I’m pretty, I’m one of those I’m pretty good about, like, once the show opens, you know, I don’t really want to come back just yet. And, and because I really want to be able to reset my eyes and, and reset my heart in many ways that you go through such a gruelling, rigorous, but very rewarding and very, you know, fulfilling process and, you know, like, but that’s in the past now, and you need to be able to let the actors do what they need to do, and trust, you know, and, and have confidence in them and they need to they need to grow, you know,
Phil Rickaby
yeah, you’re not only did you direct acquiesce, but you’re also the artistic director. And do you find is there one of the differences between directing a show and directing a theatre company? What what do you see as the differences in those roles?
Nina Lee Aquino
I think it’s, it’s its size, and scope would be the kind of the first big difference, but my philosophies on on, you know, the way I direct and how I direct and what I like, in a room, I tend to carry that with me at a much larger scale, you know, my staff, you can say that my staff are my designers and my actors. And you can say that running a company, like, we’re perpetually in a rehearsal process, you know, trying to wrestle with the question trying to, you know, really deepen the process of creating and making theatre for the community at large. So, you know, without, with a perpetual opening night, you know, so it’s not that the opening is never there, as if we’re always in constant opening nights, you know, we’re aiming for always to be ready to present something to our audiences, whether it’s a show, whether it’s a workshop, whether it’s, you know, a theatrical, any theatrical event, on a day to day basis, I feel like, you know, we are creating, to make the world a better place, so to speak. So, for me, it is directing the ultimate production. And, and as an artistic director, and like a director, you still need a vision for people to hang on to, for people to know what they’re believing in and fighting for. So, you know, my training as a director has really allowed me to kind of, you know, again, just take a step back and look at the bigger picture. So, I have a stage with actors with designers, and I’m collaborating, you know, to give you the best story possible. It’s not any different to me as, as, as the ad of a company, or in Yeah, the stages is us, the community and other theatre companies where we need to work together and collaborate to tell really important stories, you know, to create a healthy loving society.
Phil Rickaby
As as somebody who is the artistic director, I’m just curious about the your journey to becoming not just the artistic director, but a director, and what brought you to the theatre in the first place? Oh, my
Nina Lee Aquino
goodness. Well, I mean, I think that I started out in theatre as an actor, like, I was a professional actor since I was six years old. In musical theatre, no less. And, you know, I had really thought I was one of those that really thought, you know, I was gonna make a career out of being an actor, nevermind in musical theatre, but, you know, just a theatre actor straight on and, and so, when I went to university, you know, of course, I, I kind of put all my energies towards, you know, applying and going to kind of a conservatory, like universities for theatre, I knew it was going to be theatre period, I’d have no transferable skills. Outside of that, I guarantee you hence, I’ve not have a part time job that, you know, I’m really qualified for I suck at everything else. But for for theatre, you know, I think that my decision to become an actor at some point, that you know, it was a lot of me listening to the universe, you know, when you get rejection, right, and kind of going okay, what why, why am I not feeling the love and passion that I used to feel being an actor? Now, you know, so when I was at university I was really you know, second year in a you know, at the What’s that the the fork of your life, that road fork or whatever you call it? And I was I started to question that I kind of got this nagging feeling in the back of my head that that there must be something more to this than me being on Ah And so sure enough direction, I took a class in the fundamentals of directing. Because A, it was the only course that was available at the university that I needed to take to complete my degree. I was still taking theatre studies in general, I kind of distanced myself from all the acting stuff and just to theatre theatre studies in general theatre history, which I really enjoyed, actually, and then took a course in directing and no idea, but that was that I even had any inkling towards it, but am I sure, why not, I might as well try it. And so it was two professors really, in my life, you know, during the time that I went to University of Guelph, that really influenced my way of thinking and really shaped who I am today. So Judith Thompson, who’s a Canadian treasure play, right, was my professor. And, and Rick Knowles, who’s also now retiree, a professor at Guelph, who’s, you know, theatre academic God here in Canada. And so it was his class that I took. And I remember when I presented my final project and fundamentals of directing him, and he took me aside, I’ve been quiet the whole half semester, just listening. And the final project was for us to direct an excerpt from a play of our choosing. And so I did, I went through rehearsal, and that was fine. Like, I felt fine. I felt rather quite comfortable and confident in the position of a director and talking to my actors. And so presented the thing, and then he took me aside afterwards. And so I’m like, Oh, my God, I’m in trouble. I know it because I haven’t spoken at all and haven’t participated actively. And now I present this thing that was, he might think I really suck. And so he took me aside and said, you know, Nina, I think you have a gift of telling beautiful stories. And so that was one. So I kind of took that and said, thank you and got a really good grade. But again, how to process that, how was that going to affect the way I was seeing the world. And then the next thing I know, Judith Thompson calls me to her office and says, gives me a play, it says, this is mother tongue, written by Betty Kwan, who was at that point, you know, one of the few Asian Canadian playwrights in the country. And you know, he, she just had her plate published, and said, I would like you to direct this. And I said, but I’m not a director, Judith, I mean, what am I going to do with this? And by the way, I’m the only Asian in the drama. What do you want me to do this, it goes, find a way. And then, you know, I think you can, you know, apply a project, you know, and I will be your supervisor, but I think you should direct this play, and present it to the university. And then so I said, Okay, I’ll think about it. And then she goes, you know, Nina, you know, I, you’re a fantastic actor, like you’ve never lost that, I think that you’re a brilliant actor. And if you want to keep going with that, fun, that’s great. But you will be one of the 1000s of artists that will be trying to kind of knock that wall down. But if you choose to be a director, which I think is your true calling, then you can be the door on that wall for other artists. And that really was the thing that solidified everything for me, like, I wanted to be the door. And so in terms of, you know, the being a director is, is kind of the first step of leadership, accepting one’s leadership, because that’s you being the captain of the ship, and not being afraid to do that. And sure enough, I did notice, you know, while in the process of directing, that this was something that I was quite comfortable in that it didn’t my baggage of insecurity as a human being didn’t play in the room, you know, and yes, it’s, you know, the process is always stressful and anxious, filled, and as it should be, you’re an artist, we’re dramatic, you know, we create our own drama, you know, but at the same time, there’s a stillness and a calmness about the dangers that it wasn’t afraid to face. So I thought, okay, so if this rule brings the best out of me, then maybe this is what I meant to be. So I think for me, it’s just accepting you know, again, like, knowing that I can never be the actor that I couldn’t be as a director then I was okay with that. Like, truly, you know, the doors opening opening another window like that is true in my in my case, and so, I found my colleagues there.
Phil Rickaby
Did you ever when you were sort of like trying to make that decision as to whether to be an actor or a director? Did you ever did you struggle with it? Did it did you fight directing?
Nina Lee Aquino
Well, that’s the thing. I think for me, of course, I was disappointed admitting that, you know, maybe I’m not as good as an actor, as I think that I am like, do you mean of course, and you feel like you’ve failed yourself? I’ve been I’ve trained. I’ve been an actor since I was six. And I don’t think that I’m a horrible actor. It’s just I think that, again, where am I my best self, that I can help make the world a better place? And I think being the director is that answer, it’s not that, you know, I, you know, sure I can, I still take roles every now and again. But it’s not my priority. It’s not I don’t wake up, eating, breathing. Being an actor as I do, being an artistic leader, being a director. So, you know, I did struggle with the idea of failure and rejection, you know, in terms of, you know, my turning my back on being an actor. But I think that it was different. Like, when, when I get rejected as a director, there’s no doubt in my mind that that’s just the rejection, I will keep moving forward. And I have been in the past for sure. But it was very different when I got my first taste of rejection as an actor, and knew something was, was different like it. And I knew that it wasn’t just a mere rejection, there was a voice inside my head that was like, You know what this is, this is something else, this is something bigger than then a mere like, you know, feeling really depressed and self loathing about my ability. And I don’t feel the same way about directing, you know, that I eat, there’s an assuredness in myself that I’m meant to do this. And I think that applies. And that’s the advice I always give to emerging artists to, you know, fresh grads who feel like, you know, oh, my god, am I letting myself down, if I turn it back on this and accept, and I told her know that, you know, your job is to determine what your destiny is, and you have some control over that, but also to redefine what success and failure is for you. And that could that would mean that sometimes can mean like getting your first gig at the Stratford Festival, or being an actor in 100 seat capacity house at the storefront theatre, and those can still have the same weight, it doesn’t make you any less of an artist. And, you know, it’s hard enough to be a theatre artist here, because it is about failures and rejections. But, you know, it’s about kind of really redefining what success and your triumphs are as an artist.
Phil Rickaby
I think that in some ways, those of us who go into theatre, we don’t know what we’re getting into. Because, you know, when we’re kids, we were one of those people who decided we’re gonna get into theatre as a kid. Our role models, people will look to other people who are either super faint, like, they’re famous,
Nina Lee Aquino
anyway. Yeah, right. But even Broadway still equated to like Hollywood. Yeah, that really is our notion of like, any, even now I encounter artists were like, Yeah, you know, when I get stable enough, and I get that, dude, what planet are you on? Like, a Canadian theatre artists, there is no such thing as stability. Yeah, for me, I often, you know, I always encourage people to, you know, if this is truly your calling, you must embrace the impermanence of it all. Because that is, that is our calling, even in history. Theatre has always been, you know, like, we live in poverty, in the spirit of poverty, regardless of what your your economic status is, I think that suffering and pain along with the things that contrast that light and dark, you know, we that is our fuel to creating great work. Right, so that I don’t, this idea of, like, you know, stability and fame, and that is really the Hollywood dream. Yeah, you know,
Phil Rickaby
it’s more of a Hollywood thing than a real than a reality. But it is what we what we somehow are expecting, and also from the people around us, because sometimes I’ll meet people and they’ll find that, you know, I’m, I’m an actor or a writer, just Oh, have you done anything that I’ve seen? Usually? My answer is no.
Nina Lee Aquino
Well, also, it’s like when I say I’m a director is like, oh, like, what films have you done? Again, that’s the you know, that’s the association right away. Or if not, it’s like, oh, like Lion King, or Miss Saigon? I’m like, no, no, and of course factories in the mid struggles. You know, it’s, it’s a to venued company. You know, sometimes we do the odd musical, sometimes, like we were not, you know, we’re right smack in the middle of all of those aren’t four. So we’re in
Phil Rickaby
between the end and Mirvish is really like that When I think factory factory pass around interrogans
Nina Lee Aquino
Well, I only say like factory has a shell of like a main mainstream organisation, right? Because we have our two venues even though it’s like, you know, in a much needed tender loving care, Victorian mansion. It has kind of a shell of a mainstream, then you’d cut a theatre company. But, you know, the guts of it is still in the theatre. Yeah. And so our budgets. So yeah,
Phil Rickaby
it’s not it’s the kind of theatre that I think I mean, factory from the I mean, factory from its beginning has sort of been sort of like an indie spirit. Pass right, Aragon as well, that’s where they sit. And that’s one of they’ve set since they were founded in was the 60s or 70s, which is when there was this theatre boom, in Canada founded these, these cars,
Nina Lee Aquino
and factory in particular, really is like one of the first theatre companies during that time to, you know, to have that mandate that, you know, we will only exclusively produce Canadian workers. and Canadian work defined, you know, as, you know, created written whatever, by Canadian artists, right, like, the content doesn’t need to be Canadian content, but as long it was born out of a Canadian artist, that is Canadian. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, back then. Very courageous. Yeah. Right. So, yeah,
Phil Rickaby
especially because I mean, at that point, who were the like that anybody know what the Canadian playwrights work?
Nina Lee Aquino
That’s exactly, yeah, that’s why a factory was born.
Phil Rickaby
What does it mean for you to be the artistic director of factory?
Nina Lee Aquino
Does it mean well, more power, more responsibility? Spider Man. Yeah, it is. And that is, is the thing like my, I feel like, you know, the, with my history and my track record, in terms of my, you know, theatre career here in Toronto, nevermind Canada. I see myself, you know, you know, even when I was a DIA with an indie company that I founded with Fujian Asian Canadian Theatre Company, as you know, I’ve always seen my role as a public servant. And so if anything being here at Factory, that’s not change, except that, I feel like I have maybe a slightly bigger back that I can carry bigger communities on. And so that’s the thing for me that the journey to bring voices from all shapes walks of life, and to bring the Canadians experience on our stages, right? So factory has just allowed me a bigger platform, a louder megaphone, you know, maybe slightly bigger funding, I only say slightly bigger, because again, I think that’s a myth that people have in their community of, you know, well, I have two venues and blah, blah, blah, but sometimes it’s, it’s, it is truly a myth. But I think that my responsibility has just gotten bigger. And so just a lot more work to do, but good work nonetheless.
Phil Rickaby
Can you tell me about the season? What’s different about this season in factory?
Nina Lee Aquino
Um, I think that, you know, in contrast to last season, right, which was our naked season, which really revolved around, you know, are Canadian classics and, and trying to reimagine, and you know, restage Canadian classics that would make it relevant to our audiences today and tomorrow. This one is a contrast and that a they’re, they’re pretty much kind of premiers, right. world premieres in some cases, like acquiesce? You know, and I think for me, you know, a season putting together a season has always been, you know, the core, you know, one of the core things of my job, and it’s a chance for me to ask our audiences, you know, what are we going through as Canadians today? And here, here’s a slice of answers, different kinds of answers, and maybe even more questions. So I think, you know, this season it’s a little bit you know, I think people have called it groundbreaking or special or you know, because it’s 2016 it just so happens that the lens that I am looking through, you know, with these set of questions and answers are through kind of the immigrant lens, so all the writers or the creators of the season are of colour and, and as always, you know, striving for inclusiveness and diversity. You know, we have key players, the key artistic players as well are of colour or women. Right. So you know, 5050. So I think that’s, I would say that that’s maybe different, it shouldn’t be. But that I think that’s what makes the season why the seasons being highlighted. But I think for me, you know, when I put in these are artists, you know, the work behind the artists or artists that I’ve loved and admired from afar from up close, like I liked with David, I have a special relationship with him. But, you know, what they all had in common? Were them kind of redefining what home was to them. And that what being Canadian meant to them? Right. So, so yeah, that’s what they you know, and it’s nice when you when you come across, you know, what, when I was putting together the seasons, like, Oh, thank God all work in that in that sense. And that’s what all of them had in common. So, yeah,
Phil Rickaby
I think it’s, I think it’s important to highlight those things. I think that I know, I think a lot of times when we see the stage, there’s a lot of white white dudes on it, behind the scenes, mostly, but also on the stage. And that’s getting a little tiring. And it’s not really representative of what the Canadian experience is anymore. Yeah.
Nina Lee Aquino
And also to I mean, the excuse, you know, for me, it was just as important being who I am, like, I am, what the only so far I think are just women artistic director of colour of a venued company in the entire country. Right now. Yeah. Okay, because it’s 2016. So I think it’s naturally, you know, and again, this is just the for people who know my work very well. Like, I gravitate towards work that, you know, that is not necessarily safe. I gravitate toward towards work that tries to shake up the status quo that that comforts the disturbed and disturb, you know, the people that are comfortable. So it’s a Yeah, it’s a, it’s fascinating. You know, and I think that it’s important,
Phil Rickaby
it is important. Especially, I mean, as we’re recording this, it’s day after the US election. Yeah. And I, where I work, there’s a lot of rawness today about about what happened in the States. And I’m sure that there was some here, which sort of makes what’s happening with the season here even more important, just Yeah, as Canadians to stand up and celebrate the, our diversity.
Nina Lee Aquino
Yeah, I realised that, you know, and I think I woke up this morning, kind of going, oh, boy, we have so much more work to do, like, my work has now quadrupled, if anything, and it’s easy to kind of lose sight. And, and, and it’s okay, right now, I think I’m going to give us a deadline to kind of wallow in in the darkness for a bit, I think we need that. But it’s funny, because just today, my marketing manager, you know, put out a tweet and says, you know, hey, for people who want to get distracted, what’s going on, come see acquiesce come see and chanted move downstairs. And I actually I couldn’t help myself I, I tweeted back to my own company, and said, Don’t escape, come to factory and confront what’s going on, come to our theatre if you want to refuel on hope, and passion and inspiration, because this is what theatre should be doing. Right? We need to be the fuel for the fight that’s about to happen, that is going to happen. And we need to be the beacon of light in these very, very dark times. I truly do believe that. So as much as I can go, Oh my God, there’s just you know, so much to do and being a woman being a woman of colour, like it’s, it’s a sad, you know, I was quickly put in my place at a very global level today. And I think that’s what I woke up to kind of go and wow, I know where I stand. You know, and, and then I thought about, yeah, like, Thank God, there’s theatre, because I think that is a place where random people, random people can, can commute on one night, sit together and watch an experience unfold on stage and give them something to think about, you know, and not just have something that they could relate to their own experiences, but actually learn something about humanity, other people’s humanities, and that’s the thing that I really want. Our urge our communities is that it’s, you know, once you gain knowledge and understanding of the other, you gain a deeper and more profound understanding of yourself to, it doesn’t necessarily always have to be something that you relate to, or that you necessarily have to understand right away. You know, sometimes the search and the discovery is the point. Right? So and I think those are the kinds of works that I strive for to put on our stages.
Phil Rickaby
It’s interesting, because you were talking about, you know, the sort of the stages that you went through this morning, waking up to the news, and then, you know, sort of the determination to this is what we’re going to do. I saw that so much today, on Twitter, and Facebook, just in terms of that sort of starting the starting point of like, of almost despair to the determination later on of Well, now it’s time to make some fucking art.
Nina Lee Aquino
Yeah, we have to Yeah, it’s just, you know, it’s just sometimes it’s, you know, I’m still feeling it the weight, right, yeah, of course, now, and that’s why I say like, you know, for people who want to cry, who want to just whine and complain, go for it, you know, but we need to have a deadline. And, you know, two, three days from now, let’s, let’s pick up ourselves and let’s go go go.
Phil Rickaby
I think we do have to talk about it. And Theatre is a good is like the perfect place to talk about these things. It’s so one of the things that one of the most exciting things, I don’t remember the name of the play, it was one of the off Mirvish shows a couple of years ago, and it dealt with race issues. And it was one of the first times I saw a show end, and people just not leaving, but still talking. And that was so exciting, to see people like engaged in conversation over what they’ve seen on the on the play. And I think that that’s something that theatre does in a way that film doesn’t.
Nina Lee Aquino
Absolutely, and because theatre too, is like there’s an immediacy about it, right? Like you, you know, film captures, you know, time in a way that theatre can’t because again, time in theatre is fleeting, you can never get back in even if you come back tomorrow. Again, it’ll be different, so many ways. And then you have to also understand, like, even when you take a step further back, like, you’re going to a night where whether it’s comedy drama, you know, Lion King, or something like acquiesce, like, they’re, you know, these actors that you see on stage, and every light that’s called by the stage manager in the house technician, like, these are, this is their jobs, right to kind of pour their hearts out every single performance and be vulnerable to a group of strangers again, watching a story, and they need to get out of themselves every night. And I think there’s no no other art form, you know, does that, you know, in that, you know, visual artists, you know, do it in a different way, but you can hide behind the canvas, you know, novelist, you know, you can you know, it’s through yours, but for for for theatre, this orchestration of you know, like, yeah, that’s, that’s our hearts on stage right then and there, you know, and some are more intangible, like, even direction. Because it’s like, you know, what can you see of me there, but I’m everywhere? Of course. Yeah. And, and, you know, some are more tangible than but yeah, that’s, that’s our living, breathing thing on stage. And, and we’re allowing complete strangers to watch it to listen, maybe sometimes even to judge it, you know, to criticise it, but it’s us nonetheless. Right?
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I think is it can be can be difficult in theatre is bringing in audiences. I remember it was a couple of years ago that there are two, in a number of other people organise the conversation ended up being at past right about where the audience is, how do we get the back end? And not a whole lot came out of that, as far as resolution? I’m wondering what how is it? What is factories? How does factory look at or you? How do you look at bringing in audiences into the theatre?
Nina Lee Aquino
Man, one production at a time? Yeah, you know what, it’s so unpredictable. And I can’t you know, if you asked me at the beginning of like, last season, would we, you know, I wouldn’t have felt like, I wouldn’t have predicted any of the success that we had last season. Do you don’t mean it’s just so like, there’s just no formula just when you think you’re on the brink of like, actually, and then it completely changes again, and the assumption that oh, if you put more diverse works out there than more diverse audiences and like, that’s not that’s again, a myth because me running an Asian Canadian Theatre Company, you know, years years ago and then even Cahoots when I took over can moods. It’s that’s not the case, you know? And yet I can tell you with banana boys, for example, last season, yes, like majority of our audiences were Asian Canadian new generation audience who loved it and fucking sold that show out. Right? So, but it doesn’t apply to the next Asian like it doesn’t apply to the next Asian Canadian doesn’t mean that right? So there isn’t it really is, you know for us, we’ve learned to kind of just accept that, you know, maybe there isn’t a code to break that. So for me, it’s just what I’m actually looking at more, you know, me as Nina Lee Aquino’s like, how to make theatre part of our cultural fabric more, because in Europe, for example, in Germany, that’s it like everybody after work, people go see theatre. Yeah, that is, that’s not a chore for them. That’s not like asking, because artists asking for a favour, come see my show. It’s just what they do. And then they go for a pint afterwards and talk about what they seen. So, you know, the theatre is really integrated into their daily lives. And so is their education system. Like there’s no, there’s no separation, but I think because Canada’s theatre history is still quite young, relatively well, it’s just not you know, hockey is more a thing, right? Like, sports events is more thing. And now with Netflix, it’s, it’s even more harder. It’s absolutely competition to kind of just stay inside your condo and binge watch. That’s
Phil Rickaby
the question is, how do you how do you do something to convince somebody to get up off the couch and come out? To see a thing? That’s funny?
Nina Lee Aquino
Because I myself do that. Right? It’s so tempting. But I think here’s the thing is that the trade off for these very, very dark times that we’re about to enter, maybe, maybe a change will come maybe people who have been indifferent and apathetic to arts and culture being an instrument or a tool or a vehicle for change. Maybe they’ll maybe this will be a turning point. I hope so. Yeah. So but that is, that is a big question. And something I don’t have answers myself. You know, we live right beside this new brand spanking new condo, who knows if we’re able to tap into them, I can fly higher, we can fire each, you know, put in every door, talk to the property manager. But if they don’t want to come see theatre, it’s not just about firefighting, they just won’t come. And also, again, theatre here is more of a bigger event that we make it out to Right. Like, you go opera, you go ballet, you dress up. Yeah, whereas with factory, we encourage the opposite. You know, we cognate who as your jeans, have a beer, you know, we don’t have state of the art comfy seats, and, you know, flush, you know, heated bathrooms and whatnot. But, you know, guaranteed you’re gonna have a you’re gonna have an experience, whether you like to play or not like, my goal is to have people just see theatre, whether they like the shows or not as like in cinema. Yeah, because we’ve seen a lot of crappy films, we’ve seen a lot of crappy film, still go to see film.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. And it’s funny, because I have encountered people are like, Oh, I saw play once. I didn’t like it.
Nina Lee Aquino
Exactly. What is that? And that’s it. Yeah. Because again, I think that for first time goers, it’s like, seeing that immediacy, you know, is too much, whereas you were used to, that’s what we thrive on. And I think, if anything, like for me, I’d like a bigger gathering really, of how to make theatre, an important part of Canadian life. You know, it, it should be, but it’s really not right now.
Phil Rickaby
I just just sort of nursing a theory, I think that some of that might have to do with the fact that we, as as Canadians, are really good at talking about ourselves. And we’re really terrible about talking about our accomplishments, and
Nina Lee Aquino
it’s why we don’t have a star system.
Phil Rickaby
Exactly. Because, because we’re too polite to say I did this or look at someone, so they did this. But I think I think when we learn how to do that, that maybe we will get noticed a little Yeah,
Nina Lee Aquino
yeah, that’s true. And again, you know, you have because we are, you know, an inter cultural kind of country, right, like, how to reach you know, the next generation, like, I don’t think I’m gonna see it in my generation, to be honest. So right now, the way I see is I’m working towards my daughter’s generation, you know, and she’s nine years old, and I think she’s still going to be working her ass off to if she decides to work in theatre, to get the audiences you know, and I think that’ll be like maybe her daughters genuinely Yeah. But that’s still a good goal to work towards. Um, so yeah, you know, I, there is hope for the new generation to really, you know, if the theatres go the way we need it to a factory can be that example of like, you know, put a prismatic put the the real prismatic, Canadian experience on stage, meaning all kinds of voices, all kinds of stories that maybe we have, right? Imagine if all theatre companies kind of turn in that direction, and then start appealing to the younger generation, the demand for high school and for university to get funding in order for them to keep seeing theatre increases, and then off we go. Right. So, and also, to be able to inspire more diverse artists to come out because that that’s the thing that’s a cause and effect is that, you know, in terms of the number of diverse, you know, like students, theatre students of colour is also low. Right, not a lot of us, you know, go to conservatories because they think they have no place, and they think their stories will not be welcomed, and that their accents will be whitewashed, like to me that that Shakespeare is the only thing that they can do. And they’re allowed to do. And so I know my place here, I know how important my, my being here is what I can symbolise to other Filipino Canadians, for example, artists who want to be where I’m at. So yeah, yeah, to keep fighting.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah. How did you? I mean, you’ve been talking about how, you know, the work that you do is not safe. You don’t you’re not drawn to safe theatre. And I think that’s something that will draw people in because I think that if we’re seeing safe theatre, we’re bored.
Nina Lee Aquino
Yeah, you know, but But again, I think, sometimes safe is associated with perfect and polished, and refined. Yeah. And, and those are things that make people happy. Those are things that make people understand things right away, and dangerous theatre and stories that that celebrate danger in difference. They’re wrong and sometimes messy and dark. And, and you don’t necessarily understand things right away because it’s not in your bubble. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not important, like ketamine, it is just allowing different voices to take centre, front and centre, and that the universe doesn’t revolve around your understanding all the time. So that’s why I try and stay away from the word universal. Yeah, because for me, universal has just it says to me, it’s like, Oh, if it’s universal, it’s mean, it means it’s good enough. Yeah. Or that it meets your white standard. Right? And, and fuck that, like, I mean, I love I love. Like, I’m, I’m about celebrating and honouring differences. I’m about honouring and celebrating and exposing, you know, the voices of other and the marginalised voices. And, and again, some of those voices come from places of trauma, and of war. But we need to see those, you know, and it doesn’t mean that those stories don’t have any humour or light. Right. And again, just, you know, we’re happy people, brown people are happy to hear, you know, but again, it, I think it’s just not allowing everybody to just simply escape. Because we can’t, we can’t afford to, especially now more so than ever know,
Phil Rickaby
and it’s interesting because the same theatre that that that clean policy theatre is something that we can easily forget. And that stuff that’s not polished that stuff that disturbs that stuff. That is that is difficult that stays with you, which is more important.
Nina Lee Aquino
Yeah, I don’t think so. But again, right now, our definitions of excellence, and standards of like, you know, what, what a polished perfect Canadian places, is still very rooted in Eurocentric ideals, very rooted in realism and naturalism, and the Aristotelian you know, like, introduction, rising action conflict resolution. Yeah,
but linear one, you know, that’s nicely kind of packaged with a Red Bull. And there’s so many ways of telling different stories and not every story has to have a climax or not, it mean why do you think some of our national treasures like Caryl Churchill or you You know, I didn’t believe in that bullshit. And so but right now, I still think we have a long way to go not only diversifying the people on our stages and the leaders, you know, to let the people at our stages but diversifying our notions of what a Canadian play is. So, yeah,
Phil Rickaby
well, this has been it’s been really great. Thank you so much for you. Thank you
