Steven Hao
About This Episode:
This week on Stageworthy, host Phil Rickaby welcomes Steven Hao, actor, director, and artistic director of Puckers Theatre Company. Currently in his second season at the Stratford Festival, Steven shares his journey from Victoria, BC, to the national stage, performing in acclaimed productions like Anne of Green Gables, Forgiveness, Salesman in China, and Romeo and Juliet.
This episode explores:
- Steven’s journey from improv and high school musicals to the Stratford Festival
- Building a company (Puckers) to champion new voices and sustainable theatre
- The need for long-term investment in Canadian plays and playwrights
- Artistic leadership and the challenges of developing the next generation of ADs
- Balancing performing, directing, and leadership
- And much more
Guest:
🎭 Steven Hao
郝邦宇 Steven Hao is an award winning director, actor, writer, and the Artistic Director of Pucker’s, currently based in Tkaronto. In his directing work, there’s a huge emphasis put on ‘play’ that usually guides his staging process and the creative yet efficient application of design. For that reason, his work is often highly sensorial and heavily conceptual: compact with innovative stage pictures and invigorating sound and lighting design. His work can be found across many stages in Ontario, primarily with a focus on new Canadian works. Most recently, Steven appeared in the world premiere of Kat Sandler’s adaptation of Anne of Green Gables, as well as Salesman in China at the Stratford Festival, and he’s grateful for the continued opportunity to support new play development everywhere he goes. His selected theatre credits include: For Directing: Assistant Director, CRAZE (Tarragon Theatre); Director, Death to the Prometheans (Studio 180); Director, One Song Glory (Musical Stage Company); Director, life and death and life and death and life and death and life. (CCTA/ACMJIS); Assistant Director, Rocking Horse Winner (Tapestry Opera/Crow’s Theatre); Director, Ordinary Days (Shifting Ground Collective); Assistant Director, Heroes of the Fourth Turning (Howland Company/Crow’s Theatre); Assistant Director, Dragon’s Tale (Tapestry Opera); Assistant Director, The Chinese Lady (Crow’s Theatre/Studio 180 Theatre/fu-GEN Theatre); Director, A Perfect Bowl of Pho (Toronto Fringe Festival/Kick & Push Festival); Director, I and You (Precipice Productions); Director, Constellations (Precipice Productions). For Acting: Two Seasons at the Stratford Festival, Anne of Green Gables, Forgiveness, Romeo & Juliet, Salesman in China (Stratford Festival); Pirithous/Wooer, The Two Noble Kinsmen (Shakespeare Bash’d); Puck, A Midsummer Night’s Dream (Canadian Stage); Cockroach, Cockroach (Tarragon Theatre). Upcoming: Director, Ride the Cyclone (Shifting Ground Collective); Director, Concord Floral (Pucker’s); Performer, Pu Songling: Strange Tales (Crow’s Theatre); Third Season at Stratford Festival. Grateful to the entire team front and behind Concord Floral.
Connect with Steven:
📸 Instagram: @steven_haoby
🦋 Bluesky: stevenhao.bsky.social
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Transcript
Transcripts are auto-generated and may contain minor errors.
[Phil Rickaby]
Hello, welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host and producer of this podcast. Stageworthy is Canada’s theatre podcast.
And on this podcast, I talk to theatre makers of all kinds, from actors to playwrights to directors, and much more, some of whom are household names and others, I really think you should get to know. If you’re watching on YouTube, make sure that you hit that like button. And if you’re enjoying this podcast, make sure that you are subscribed and hit that bell icon so that every time I put out a new episode, you get a notification that that episode is available.
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And if you’re listening on Spotify or Apple podcasts, make sure that you hit that subscribe or follow button. And while you’re there, if you’re on Spotify or Apple podcasts, I’d love for you to take part in those conversations because I haven’t actually posted about them yet. But there’s some exciting stuff that I think is important that we’ll need to talk about in the future and for the future of the theatre industry and theatre enjoyment in Canada.
So if you enjoy Stageworthy go to patreon.com/stageworthy, and become a patron. Now, as I mentioned, my guest is Stephen Howe. Stephen is a director, actor, and artistic director of Puckers.
In this episode, we talk about Stephen’s time at the Stratford Festival. We talk about theatre leadership in Canada. We talk about playwriting and the pathway for plays and so much more.
This was a really fun conversation. So I hope you enjoy it. Here’s my conversation with Stephen Howe.
Stephen Howe, thank you so much for joining me. I am thrilled to be able to be talking to you. You mentioned just before we started recording, you are basically finishing up your season at the Stratford Festival.
This is your third season, I think? This is my second season. Yes, I’m going into my third.
Yeah. You were in the Anna of Green Gables show. You were in Salesman in China.
What has your season at the Stratford Festival been like?
[Steven Hao]
It’s been great. Yeah, I started my first season last year doing Romeo and Juliet and Salesman in China. And this is my second season.
I did Anne of Green Gables and Forgiveness. It’s been a really wonderful time. I mean, Stratford was never like a place that I thought I’d be working at when I first entered the industry, not because I wasn’t aware of it.
It’s only the most prestigious institution in Canada. But I sort of had developed passion or has spent majority of my time working dedicated towards new works. So that’s a lot of where my realm of expertise lives in.
And they just so happened that when I got brought over to do these shows that they were all new plays. I was brought over to do Salesman in China last year, which was a new play. And then they kept me around for two more new plays.
And then next year, I’m going back to do another new play. So I’m excited that I’m able to use my skills, even for an institution that sometimes as a priority is not always on new works.
[Phil Rickaby]
I think it’s thrilling to see that festival tackle new works. And I also think it’s great to see that people are, and this might sound strange, but people are playing roles with lines in their first season. When I was in theatre school, and this is in ancient times, this is a long time ago, but it was basically understood that when you went to the Stratford Festival, you would not speak for a minimum of two seasons, like you were going to be like Spearchucker in the background, and you might work your way up to some lines here and there.
And in fact, those few people who at the time did manage to get roles, often had a rough go of it. So I’m glad to see that people can enter into the festival and kind of make a mark from the beginning.
[Steven Hao]
Yeah, I’m surprised by that as well. Because when we were doing Salesman in China, there was a castmate of ours by the name of George Chang, who was the first Asian Canadian actor to appear at the festival 30 years ago. And that was kind of amazing, because that last season was his second season, technically, if we’re going by the thing of like, how many seasons have you done?
It was his second season ever. And his first season was 30 years ago. And he was the first Asian Canadian actor to appear at the festival.
Like you said, 30 years ago, when he was there, he was playing, you know, spear carriers and, you know, plate bringers. And, yeah, so yeah, I think I think that institution also just Canadian art has come a long way.
[Phil Rickaby]
And it is such a such an important part of the Canadian theatre landscape. Like it is not only does it employ lots of people. But for many people, especially in Ontario, but in many places in Canada, it is the place where people are first exposed to classical theatre and other forms of theatre.
Super important as part of the fabric of of our industry.
[Steven Hao]
Totally. Yeah, I think I think you know, it’s a it’s a crucial place to exist in terms of just for the I think the culture aspect of it all. Obviously, like I think I think since pandemic, we experienced something that we’ve never experienced before.
And since coming out of the pandemic, it’s been a long journey in recovering our audiences and also just just sort of inserting ourselves back into what’s what what’s in the popular culture, and you know, having to compete with movie theatres and streaming and yada yada yada. So So I think a place like that, yeah, I think the existence of is super crucial.
[Phil Rickaby]
And just generally like the theatre, trying to find or reconnect with its audience after the pandemic is a is kind of a huge issue. It’s something that I think we’re not fully reckoned with how the landscape has changed and how comfortable people are not leaving their homes. What do you what what have you seen?
I mean, you’ve been at the festival now for two seasons. What have you seen in terms of audiences? And what’s your sense of audiences leaving their homes and coming to the theatre?
[Steven Hao]
Yeah, I mean, it’s the funny thing, right? Because no matter what, like the experience you get to have at the theatre remains on changing, you know, I think the new ad element is the anxiety of, you know, still just sickness and whatnot. That’s kind of sort of push people back a little bit.
But like, in terms of being back in the theatre, there’s still nothing that moves the audience to their feet the moment after like a big musical number, or like after a really devastating tragedy on stage, like, like the audiences are still so engaged. And I think in terms of what this medium does for us before pandemic or after, like it still does that same thing, which is providing a really cathartic experience, and allowing strangers to connect with each other in a big black room for however long the play is, right. So that that essence has not changed.
It’s just that we definitely have lost some of that familiarity of how frequently people visit the theatre to having to earn them back a little bit more. But but yeah, but the essence remains the same.
[Phil Rickaby]
The essence, absolutely, the essence remains the same. I think that, that to me, there’s, we, we’ve lost some of the traditional audience, right? Some of them because I mean, the traditional, I worked at Mirvish Theatres for ages.
And so I know that the age of the average subscriber is very old. And and I think every theatre sort of experiences that. And there’s a fine, you have to try to find ways to bring in people who don’t who haven’t had the habit of going to the theatre so much.
And I think that one of the ways that we should probably be doing that is to be learned how to talk about what the magic of being in the room is like, those things that you just described, it’s so different from watching something on TV, or even in a movie theatre, it’s immediate. And it’s not just you’re in the room with an audience, you’re in the room with with actors. And we have to, that is the experience.
And we have to be able to, that’s how we’re going to bring people into the theatre by expressing to them what that’s like.
[Steven Hao]
100%. Yeah. And I think, you know, a lot of that is, you know, you know, I’m excited to see the new the new chapters of now theatre, theatres everywhere, not just in Toronto, but in Canada, of trying to program more things and or engaging more work or engaging more directors who really understand how to, I think, bring that out of the audience, you know, like, Isle of Green Gables has been such a unique experience, because it is such a Canadian classic. So in a lot of ways, we were playing off of the safety of having a built in audience for the show, but our director, writer, Cass Sandler, did such a good job of crafting this story in such a unique way that it connects to the audience who was familiar with the work, but also audiences who’s never experienced the work. And it sort of started to foster this new group of audiences for this story, as well as just for this play and this kind of structure of storytelling as a whole.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s so interesting, because that is, I mean, it is a play like that, that is a story that has been adapted in several different ways, a couple of times on television, a stage musical, in addition to a stage musical, if you go to the Charlottetown Festival, they’re across from the where the musical is, there’s another version of the story, as well. It’s like, so there’s a lot of familiarity. But it’s Cass Sandler.
So Cass has a way of, of attacking things in a very unique way.
[Steven Hao]
Yes, I think what she understands, most of all is, I think she understands, she attacks at everything with such an open heart. I think she understands, like, like, what is that thing that really tickles people with people’s feelings? And what’s the most effective thing or way to do that?
Like in the room, we’re working on the show, she referenced a lot of like, when she was a child visiting the Stratford Festival, what stuff did she used to see? And what was stuff that was effective for her? And I think moving from that angle versus trying to be like, Oh, what is the most, quote, unquote, commercially appealing choices, but rather, what is the thing that that really affected me when I was a child, because she was working from that angle, I felt that when the story came together, it was driven by joy and heart, which is something that we can all relate to, and probably something that we all desperately need right now, just with everything happening in the world. And I just thought Kat was so brilliant at doing that, and actually making that into something that we can all get on board with, which, which, you know, we don’t often go into every show having that.
So that was that was a gift.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely. The trajectory that Kat Sandler has taken in, in in her career, as a as a writer, from self producing, on the the the backspace at factory theatre, or wherever, wherever she could to stages at the at the fringe of the fringe, and so on, and so on, and so on to now, on one of the biggest stages in Canada is pretty impressive. But since we’re talking about new about Canadian works, I do want to talk with you about the lifespan of New Canadian works, you’re a director, you have a theatre company, and called puckers, and I will get to puckers in a second, or in a little bit, but I’ve often felt that the lifespan of Canadian works tends to be short, one production, one and done, kind of.
And I often think that’s a little bit unfair to the to the really excellent plays that we have. But I’m curious about where you sit and where how you see the lifespan of New Canadian works?
[Steven Hao]
Yeah, you absolutely, I think I think hit the nail on that. It’s it’s, I still consider myself as a young artist in terms of just like my practice, and also experience wise, but one of the earliest things I’ve noticed what about our, our general sort of just ecosystems off Canadian theatre, is that we are really centered in on this mission of how many world premieres can we get in the year. Now, I understand that historically speaking, that was sort of the initial mission with the just sort of how our arts were funded.
You know, it was it was it was under this mission and guidelines of building the Canadian identity, and also like expressing what the Canadian identity is through art. So I totally understand why for such a long time, we poured so much money into new play development. And now we’ve sort of built this culture of like, you know, Canada, sort of the breeding ground for these new exciting voices, and people can trial and error things.
And we see so many unique and distinctive voices across a span of time. And while that’s all very exciting, what I felt was at an incredible, just just unbalanced sort of general generality is that I tend to see these really great, awesome work happen. And then I’m telling my friends or I’m telling my colleagues to go see it.
And they were like, Oh, but it closes like next week, and I’m busy these two weeks, or like our closing two weeks, and I’m out of town from this day to this day. So I can, I might be able to try to catch closing and, and, and, and there was something kind of bizarre about that. Because, you know, obviously, I think I think there’s nothing wrong with when a really good show happens, and it happens over three weeks.
And if you missed it, it’s kind of like a, oh, that there’s a scarcity of that or the rareness of that makes that play so much more exciting. While I think there’s room for that, what I really did feel devastated by was that plenty of good plays that I felt was informative in my journey as a young artist, or in my in building me as a young artist, I no longer no longer is around or there’s any way to be referenced. It only exists in the selective members of audiences minds.
And, and sort of what we refer to it, it’s kind of like, Oh, yes, I look back on the show with fond memories. And, and I don’t know, I think I think that’s not a sustainable way for us to continue to create art. I think, I think, if we’re really passionate about this idea of building the Canadian identity, or just even fostering what that culture is, in terms of what are the Canadian place, I do think we sort of have to look at successful examples internationally, which is looking at actually establishing a canon of work, not that not that anywhere else was ever like, you know, America or the UK ever was like, these are canon. I don’t think anybody ever said that out loud.
But eventually, certain place gets reexamined. So often, they become or in itself forms the canon. And I’m sometimes a little Yeah, a little devastated that we sort of don’t engage our arts in that capacity.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, we don’t have the stages for it. We don’t have a stage that that because all almost all of our midsize theatres are there work with season, so they have a finite period of time to put a show on that a show can’t run for a long period of time, it can’t, it can’t, it can’t be like in in the UK, where a show can run for months, or in in the States and in New York, where a show can run for months or years, it we just don’t have the stages for it.
But we also don’t have a pipeline for like, oh, this show was a hit here, we’re going to do it over here. It’s so rare to see a show that’s been performed once performed somewhere else. And that again, stands in the way of creating a Canadian canon, because we never re examine the plays, we never allow the plays to have a life outside of their initial production.
Totally.
[Steven Hao]
Yeah. And you know, just looking also, just like at our great writers, you know, a few seasons ago, I think factory had that to one person play a sort of double bill of Daniel McIver plays one was monster and the other ones here and it was kind of incredible refreshing because I was like, I know about these work since my time in theatre school, because you know, in the Canadian theatre landscape classes, they teach you about certain writers that we do have.
But it was a bizarre thing of feeling like I may or may not ever come across those plays. Because even the way it was taught to us was kind of like, Oh, yeah, like this premiere this year, and then they sort of haven’t had a production sense. And, and it was one of those things that when when when monster and here lies Henry was programmed, and I went and saw it and the person who performed monster was was a friend of mine in Carl, Carl Eng.
And just to watch an actor who is like who I worked with, but also actually quite considered to be off the current generation, in terms of like what who’s working out there, take on that piece of text that was performed so very differently, when it was first performed with new direction with new vision with new, whatever, it made me really excited about revisiting these sort of work kind of works that that was successful once upon a time. Yeah.
And I just wish for it not to be something that only comes across every once in a while, because certain theatre is under certain financial needs, or some of the theatre was feeling whatever, but that they’re like you said, there’s spaces or stages for these plays to have a longer life. Because although selfishly speaking, there are certainly plays that I performed in that I’ve been like, gosh, that was such a good time. I wish I could do that again.
Or I wish more audiences got to see that story and be be moved by and be impacted by it.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s like, you know, the somebody being able to tackle a text by Daniel McIver, and bring their own interpretation to it with a director and just their own, their own talent, their own take on it is something we get to do with Shakespeare sometimes, but so rarely, with our own work, I’ve seen a few of Daniel McIver’s solo plays from Wild Abandon to House, I saw him, I saw him perform House in his Farewell Tour. And these are texts that are so poetic and dense and wonderful that we should be able to have as many actors as possible, tackle these and that that’s the case with so many other Canadian plays as well that, that we should get to see them again.
I think it’s great that Kim’s Convenience has been touring with like new people taking on those roles, as as iconic as Paul Sun Young Lee is in the role of Appa. It is it is good to see Ince, who coincidentally was the son in the original production, now old enough to take on the role of Appa. But it’s fascinating, like just to see like these shows get get another opportunity.
And it’s a rare, beautiful thing.
[Steven Hao]
Yes, but also like, but also when it came back, and this is the thing that I sort of, you know, feel feel for a lot in these opportunities, which is when that show came back, and I saw it, I didn’t see the original version, because I had I wasn’t living in Toronto at the time. But having seen the new production, even as a person who didn’t see the original production, I was excited by that, you know, not only just the thing you mentioned of like Ince playing the son, but now playing the dad, but to see that play have a new life, you know, just like a life that’s beyond sort of like what it was 20 years ago. I mean, this is to say that Kim’s Comedians have also fortunately have had multiple different lives in different places, because it’s considered one of those plays that’s a little bit easier to do in terms of, you know, having finding an audience for and whatnot.
But I really do wish and hope more plays sort of got to have that have that chance and have that lifespan. And that we weren’t as concerned about how fast or how limited time amount amount of time we have to get a production up. But that to think about the longevity of the production, because I also think, because we are so passionate about new play development, often what happens is that, you know, you get these fantastic new plays, and I’m speaking as somebody who’s worked on a good number of them in workshops, you get these a fantastic new place, core in workshop, and they’re just in development hell, you know, like a play that’s written 10 years ago is still being developed to this day, you know, just waiting for the next step to to get get produced and get get programmed.
And then the moment that is programmed happens for three weeks, and then we don’t see it ever again, you know, and I also go three weeks also isn’t realistic speaking a sufficient amount of time to for the for the writer even to understand whether if there are stuff in the play that fully works. So for me, I also go like, you know, I think of that story of Tony Kushner, making amendments to angels in America, I think something like 10 years or like 1213 years after it’s published, I was like, there’s something about that, that I love as well, that because we’re in this business, and we understand that the things that we create is a living organism. And as long as you as the creator of that living organism is alive, that there should be an opportunity or a chance given to you to edit to adjust to recontextualize, you know, I know, I know, Tony Kushner felt that there was stuff that he was written that felt relevant at a time that it was written.
But then 10 1213 years later, it actually did not sit with him the same way that it did 10 years ago. And and yeah, and I know Daniel McIver made a little at least I heard that he made some small edits to monster and here lies Henry when I was produced again. And I just find that beautiful.
I think I think the reinvestment of artists is equally as interesting if if if not worth to have that conversation, then also new arts and new artists and etc, etc, etc.
[Phil Rickaby]
I think it’s great when an art and a writer can revisit work, especially when they’ve had the opportunity to see it lived in by different people to have it breathe to have even just like have even a single actor who lives in that part for more than three weeks for like a month, two months, three months, because that performer then learns much more about that role. And what they’ve learned about the role and fuses how they play it going forward, until the playwright can then take a look at it and and and how they can have a realization, I didn’t realize that about my own play. And they can then make adjustments and things like that.
And Danny MacGyver, who’s performed his plays so many times, he has embodied those and knows those well as well. But they’ve also been performed. He’s one of the rare playwrights who’s had their plays performed multiple times.
Yeah. And and it’s it’s one of those rare things in this country.
[Steven Hao]
Yes. And I think I just think we should do that way more frequently than we are right now. Again, I do think new plays are great.
I love working on new plays. And it’s it’s it’s truly where my work mostly lies. But it is it is frustrating some to feel that to feel that again, if you’re in a midsize company, it’s three week run.
If you’re a tarot run, you can an extra week for previews. But then you get, you know, just even a small, slightly smaller size than a midsize company. Sometimes your run is for two weeks.
And and that’s just, yeah, for the amount of time that is put into a production that just is just brutal.
[Phil Rickaby]
I thought it 100% is brutal. And it’s really kind of rough. And there’s no, you know, there are people there are plays that are that that are written in the UK and in the US, they get productions here.
It just doesn’t go the other way. There’s no pipeline within the country or even external to the country to take these, these plays and give them a life, which is really quite tragic.
[Steven Hao]
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I do hope that as we continue to invest our time in Canadian arts, that this is a conversation that yeah, it’s also for for me also go like, you know, as excited I am that there’s always such a focus towards story about people in my generation, and you know, young stories and young people, and that we, you know, deserve to shape the future of whatever I’m often feeling, you know, a sense of like, right, but there were also paths that was laid out for me, by the folks who came long before I did. And it’s sometimes feel weird that we in order to prioritize one, we have to sacrifice the other.
And I just think there is a common ground that we can reach, in terms of preserving stuff that really strongly works, while trying to elevate new ideas, you know, much like we do with Shakespeare, right? Yeah, no, that those texts are now treated with a sense of, or not with the same sense of sort of that, that reverence as well as it once was. And I think, yeah, yeah.
And I think I hope Canadian arts can one day achieve that legacy as well.
[Phil Rickaby]
Maybe if we can find our ways to bring in the new audiences, the like the people who don’t go and show them what theatre can be, that maybe then more theatres will open and more and more work can get done. But we have to start with bringing people in. And sometimes that’s an uphill battle, because a lot of theatres are combating the people who are currently buying tickets.
And if I can’t sacrifice these people for the people who haven’t yet bought tickets, but I need to bring in new people. And it’s a juggling game.
[Steven Hao]
Yeah, it’s a whole thing. I’m sure there’s so much more nuance in that, that I don’t have the full context or grasp off. But it’s certainly something that I’m really invested in learning about, especially trying to step into more of an artistic leadership role and such.
[Phil Rickaby]
Speaking of artistic leadership, let’s talk about Pockers. Tell me about your theatre company.
[Steven Hao]
Yes. So this is a new theatre company I launched this year. We’re doing our premiere production in the Theatre Center from October 8 to October 12.
Which I’m not sure if by the time that this podcast goes out, if we’ll still be running, but probably not because I’m guessing this, I don’t know.
[Phil Rickaby]
Unfortunately, that show will be closed by that time.
[Steven Hao]
But that’s okay. Yeah. But that’s that’s where we’re launching.
We launched our company this year. And that was the that’s the first show that we’re doing. And yeah, it sort of started as a I think I think I knew that I wanted to sort of go into artistic leadership.
When I was leaving school, when I graduated, I had an inkling that it was something that I was interested in, because I had a really strong investment in terms of new work, strong investment in terms of the Canadian theatre landscape, and was very interested in having or being a part of that dialogue of how do we create art? And why do we program what we program? And how do we continually reinvest in the arts that we’re making?
So I knew that I wanted to step into those leadership roles, but also simultaneously have felt at a great advantage, a disadvantage, because I don’t know that it’s something that’s immediately accessible to young people who have those kind of dreams. I think, you know, in chatting with a lot of mentors who are artistic leaders, what have all the patterns that I keep sensing is that a lot of folks sort of fell into those positions later on in their career, versus having had really strong a desire or ambition for it from a very from the very beginning. So one of my mentors who was Ray Hawk, who was the last artistic director of Musical Stageco, has sort of said to me that there’s not really like one one direct path towards becoming an artistic leader, you just have to start calling yourself one, and start proving that something that you can do.
And then when the right job opportunity comes along, you’re able to offer up the experiences and the things that you’ve done as an example, or, you know, as something that can back up your arguments. And I had a thought about that. And my business partner, whose name is Allie McKenzie, we went to school together.
And during our entire time in school together, we have sort of always connected on all things arts related, you know, how arts should be made, how does art play a part in our society? What like that, that the community aspects of art making, that when we came out of the pandemic, which was 2022, we had sort of the first initial conversations about wanting to build something together, wanting to invest in something together, that perhaps could be something that two of us can continuously invest in over a period of time. And then in November of 2024, we finally chatted about that, and then decided to launch this year, so that we can start to get practice in as young artistic leaders, and trying to start programming work and engaging with industry in a way that is not just as our profession, but as as actual art makers, and to be able to dialogue about work in a capacity that feels larger than just in our living room. So yeah, so that’s, that’s why we formed Puckers. It’s very exciting.
We’re excited to continue to take it to new heights. Can I ask you where the name comes from? Yes.
Okay, so this is a very, this is a short and long story. I’ll try to keep it concise. But what you need to know is that when I immigrated to Canada, one of my name, English name, because Stephen is not my birth name, but an English name that was assigned to me.
But one of my alternate English name was almost the name Lemon, which which is a much longer story, right. But because of that, sort of, I’ve always incorporated Lemon into my personal branding, just in terms of like, I always, you know, when we do icebreakers, I’m like, what’s one thing people don’t know about you? I’ve always made sure that that was the fact.
I’ve told a lot of people about this fact. And so then when I was sort of thinking about creating a theatre company, I was really looking at the title of Lemonade Stand, because I think I liked how scrappy it sounded. And that I still I play with the lemon thing.
And then my business partner, Ali, who is much more savvy in the conversations of branding and, and also just brand identity than I am, sort of told us sort of we had a conversation regarding like, like Lemonade Stand is great, but it’s also not like super distinct, right? Like, like, I can, it can be easily confused as not a company, but like, like a Lemonade Stand, you know, and also the other things that’s quite a mouthful. So then, we sort of started having this conversation of like, what is the thing that we want to be remembered by?
What is the thing that with the work that we make? What is that? What has what does that have to do with with our audiences?
And the only thing we sort of really landed on and could agree upon is that we wanted people leaving our shows or our performances, feeling that they were strongly impacted, so much so that there is a visceral reaction. So then we started thinking about a name that implied an emotion immediately. And then we circled back to lemons.
And we realized that, you know, when you take something really sour, or you when you eat something really sweet, there is this like impulsive thing you do with your lips, which is you pucker up kind of a little bit. And also, I think like puckering up is such an intimate facial reaction as well. We just thought that a not only captured the lemon thing that we were working with, a simultaneously captured the sort of the essence of the work that we want to make that that it makes you that makes you pucker.
So then suddenly, we were on that route. And and eventually, we landed on puckers, with an apostrophe, because we liked the idea that everything was in possessive. So it was like something that we had, you know, it was it was this company’s thing.
So but it’s puckers thing. So that’s how we landed on a name. Love it.
[Phil Rickaby]
I love story. I love stories like that. I love stories about how things get named.
You were talking about the the leadership pipeline. And it occurred to me as you were as you were talking about that is, in a lot of cases, if you’re in theatre school, the idea of being an artistic leader is not even something that comes up. Right?
It is not something, especially when you’re a theatre school does that how many people go into theatre school thinking, I want to be an artistic director? I think it’s, I think it’s a very rare thing that people consider. But so it’s hard.
It’s hard to get somebody on that track in theatre school and figure out what that is. But then like, as you said, after when somebody starts to want to do that, how do you learn? How do you figure out what that is?
What is the pathway to becoming an artistic leader?
[Steven Hao]
Yeah, I think I think it’s such a bizarre thing. I think number one, not even just to say that this theatre school institutions or, you know, any any kind of institution, not even if you’re just in for a conservatory training, or even if you’re in like a drama program, the role of the artistic director is almost never discussed. And simultaneously, at least in Canada, I’m actually not sure everywhere else, but at least in Canada, it is one of the most thankless jobs in the theatre scene.
I think it does come with a slightly higher paycheck than some of the other positions. But simultaneously, I do believe that it’s one of the most thankless jobs, because they’re sometimes not immediately the face of, you know, oh, they directed this really great show in the season or, or that, oh, they were in this super great show in the season that we, I think, as general audiences, we don’t always sort of associate the, you know, the idea of like, what happens in a theatre space with the artistic director, I think I think that’s, like, really heavy industry talk. I think it’s like, if you’re in the industry, you’re really familiar with the idea. But if you’re out of the industry, I think a lot of people have confusions about what that position really is.
But yeah, I was really shocked and surprised by how there was no sort of path into it and or sort of training around it. You just kind of have to like have all these sets of skills, but there is no, like gather place to teach all those things, you know, like, as our director, you probably have to have a really strong people skills, which like you could argue that being an actor teaches you, right. But at the same time, it’s also like you need to have a strong financial understandings of, of you know, how to bring in money, how to how to spend money, you need to have a really strong sense of your company’s mission statements, right?
So that you could guide your company towards new heights, you need to understand who are the people that are working in this industry, as you need to understand who to bring in to direct your shows, you need to understand, you know, how to produce a successful season. And there’s all these like little nuance and actually larger contextual things that, that I think, yeah, that you sort of don’t have a direct pipeline to learn about, which is which can be quite frustrating, which is why also establishing puckers is just really an excuse or an opportunity for me to start learning about those things as well.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the other thing is, is an artistic director often has to deal with donors often has to be talking to donors and like putting the the the that personal touch into conversations with, with the money people and this and the other thing it is a it is not a nine to five job. It is a it is a 12 hour a day job, especially at large, at large companies.
And we sort of go back and forth in Canada, where I know for years, there was a period of time the Canadian stage where they were getting a lot of flack because the artistic director was hadn’t worked in Canada, they were they worked in the UK, and they came back here, we sort of go through these cycles in Canada, where the artistic leadership for a period of time seems to come from outside of the country, which again, makes it hard for somebody who’s in the country, and trying to learn this, this as a skill to actually get the the the the education and the knowledge that they need to be able to do that themselves. It’s a really tough one, because of that.
[Steven Hao]
Yes, incredibly. So and you know, and again, there’s no, I think I think what’s what’s really exciting now is that is that I think Canadian companies are starting to maybe realize that a little bit, I’m starting to see a bit of a pattern. Crow’s Theatre being a prime example of that, where it seems to become clear that, you know, that there’s there was a, you know, Paolo, who was recently named the artistic director of Soul Pepper, sort of went through this really nice pipeline that Crow’s has sort of built off where he was the sort of associate to the company to begin with, and that’s what promoted him into being the assistant, sorry, the associate artistic director. And then from there on in sort of this step up into the artistic leadership role as Soul Pepper. And I think, I think more theatre companies, if we want to continue to foster a really strong artistic culture, and we want to think about, you know, the strong legacies of a company, I think I think theatre companies in Canada need to start having more awareness of how we can involve young passionate arts leaders and arts, arts crafters to to insert themselves into that business.
So now we have a again, longevity and legacy to to continue to build on top of each other.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s so important, because one of the things that will happen is if we don’t foster this, people will leave the industry. Some of our most talented people will leave the industry and go into a private industry, they’ll join a company where they can use their skills, or they can make more money or whatever it is.
[Steven Hao]
100%. And and because it’s already such a, you know, like our business is so dependent on your relationship with people. When we lose those people, it’s extra devastating, because it’s like, not only are you losing like a really talented or passionate worker, a lot of times you’re losing a friend, you know, into, into from away from this field.
And and, yeah, and I don’t personally like to see that.
[Phil Rickaby]
So no, who likes to see somebody who’s put a lot of years, a lot of time, and a lot of talent into something just go I can make more money somewhere else. I want to take a second and just sort of like step away from some of these other these larger topics. So talk a little bit more about you and your, your journey in theatre.
How, how did you discover theatre? And how did you decide that it was something you were going to do?
[Steven Hao]
Sure, I didn’t come to, I didn’t come to discover theatre until I was in high school, I sort of known that I was going to be a performer of sorts. Since the age of eight, I was I was on a trip with my family. And we were in France, because there was a business conference that my dad had to attend.
And then I remember being in France, and I mind you, I was eight. And this speak, I hadn’t started speaking English, then I was only Mandarin was the only language I could speak then. And I was like staying in the hotel because we were there for I think for 48 hours.
And then for the entire 40 hours, obviously, I couldn’t leave the hotel. So I was I was just in hotel the whole time while I was in France. And then the hotel TV was playing Patch Adams, the Robin Williams movie.
And I remember seeing clips of that movie, and being like, Oh, whatever that is, I want to be that. But I didn’t know, sort of the, you know, I didn’t know the language, no, I didn’t know the film, I didn’t know what was happening in the film, I all I remembered was that he put on a red nose. So then, when I went back to China, I when I went to grade four, we had to do this sort of like careers class kind of thing, which is also incredibly Chinese, which is by grade four, you’re like, figure out we want to do when you are, you know, in your when you’re becoming an adult, you know, and all my classmates was doing these topics are like, you know, health worker, I’m like, you know, I want to be a business person or whatever, whatever. I did my presentation, I wanted to be a clown. And then I was sort of publicly ridiculed for it by my by my teacher in front of my whole class.
And I just remember being like, Oh, okay, like, I definitely feel a strong inclination to this. And if anything, I don’t feel a stronger connection to it now that I’ve been made fun of, because it was also one of those weird things where Africa I got made fun of. I was like, Oh, like, like, I’m not ashamed by it.
But I actually felt like I really cared about it. And eventually, a few years down the line, when I immigrated, I when you know, I was I was attending a public school, and then I had really enjoyed doing like, you know, class presentation, I always been a pretty extroverted kid. And I discovered improv.
And then a couple of my friends in improv was like, oh, the usual addition for the school musical. And then I was like, what’s a musical? And they were like, Oh, it’s, you know, you know, it’s, it’s like theatre.
I was like, I was like, what is that? And then it was sort of like making, you know, just telling me sort of what it is. And I was like, Oh, I can’t know what that is.
Because there’s Chinese theatre, although I think Chinese is quite different from from, you know, North American theatre. And then I auditioned for my first musical ever when I was in grade nine, for the musical Greece, and it was the school musical. And I just remember, like, absolutely falling in love with the process of building the show.
And then subsequent year, I started taking singing lessons, start taking dancing lessons. And then just one thing rolled into another. And then suddenly, I was doing it.
And suddenly, I was booking professional contracts outside of school. And all of a sudden, I was in grade 11. And I told my drama teacher that I wanted to become like a full full blown, like full time actor.
And I grew up in Victoria, BC, this is a missing piece of this. But under my drama teacher at the time was like, Okay, if you want to do that, you have to leave Victoria, because Victoria is too small. Like there’s not enough work here.
Like if you want to do that, you have to go to like a big city like Toronto. So then I went to Toronto, I went to Ryerson University, or now called TMU. By the time I went, it was still called Ryerson, did their did their did their conservatory program.
And then since then have been very lucky to continue to work in the industry and continue to work at places like Stratford, and can stay Tarragon, all these wonderful, wonderful locations. So yeah, it’s been a fruitful journey.
[Phil Rickaby]
That’s quite a journey. That’s quite a journey. I’m looking at some of the stuff that you have upcoming.
I mean, here you’re directing a shifting ground collective Dora award winning shifting ground collectives, ride the cyclone, which I think is on right now as we’re recording this. That’s correct.
[Steven Hao]
Yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
And you’ve got Concord floral, which is with your company, Puckers. You’ve got work at Crow’s Theatre, you’re going to be at you’re doing your third season at the Stratford Festival. That’s all that you that’s quite a lot coming up.
How are you balancing all of that? And I hate asking people that I don’t I love asking people to choose which one of their babies they like the best. Which one of these things are you looking the most forward to right right now today?
[Steven Hao]
Oh, gosh, that’s such a good question to ask. Because like, obviously, every every single time I get to come across opportunity, I’m excited about the next thing that’s coming up. And that that’s always going to remain true.
But I will say because in my own artistic journey, I’m so invested in being a director right now, that the things that I’m really looking forward to in this current moment of our of our recording is Kung Fu Floral just to sort of share the vision of that show with a public audience and also like really launching sort of the company that feels really super exciting and a top priority for me. But you know, I’m always so excited for everything coming up. What I love is when I’m able to finish a contract, I’m just towards the end of it start to get excited about the next thing coming up, which is also a privilege I acknowledge of like being a working artist.
And there’s always something to look forward to.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, I mean, we mentioned before we started recording that you were as you’re finishing the the Stratford season, you’re spending sort of like half your time in Stratford, some of your time in Toronto. So you’re like easing back into the Toronto scene from a summer at Stratford. But is that is there a culture shock that comes from like leaving the Stratford bubble and going back into the Toronto scene?
What what is what’s that process been like?
[Steven Hao]
Yes, totally. I mean, first first and foremost, Stratford, you you have so just so much resource, right? Like there’s there’s there’s so so much time so much so much like so many sort of people working on your project.
You have you have time you can spend a way to thinking about your work before you come back to it. You preview for a month. You know, it’s it’s it’s unheard of here.
It’s unheard of in Toronto. So so definitely like, whenever I sort of ease myself back in or reinsert myself back into the Toronto scene, it’s always like, oh, remembering how fast everything’s to be as sort of like, oh, right, we actually don’t have time to dwell on decisions. We have to make decisions and try to get to the next decision before we’re at lunch, you know.
So that’s definitely been like a bit of a sort of switch. But simultaneously, also much more exciting stuff is happening because, you know, Stratford, you sort of get this thing of like, you kind of have to have an idea for what the show is much longer before you begin. Whereas I think Toronto there’s because of how fast everything sort of happens.
There’s a really exciting aspect of like, oh, the work that’s that we’re engaging with just feels much more risky. You know, that it was not something that was pre meditated, it feels something that’s quite like, right, this show is going to try to do this thing. And the purpose of that may be, it might not connect with everyone, I might upset people, but that’s kind of like the goal, or that’s kind of like what the angle is.
And yeah, so that’s also quite refreshing. Yeah, I definitely I don’t prefer one place over the other. But I do like that I get to sort of dip my toes in on on both sides.
[Phil Rickaby]
And it’s exciting to know that that you’ll be going back to Stratford again, for the next season. How does it feel to sort of have settled into or do you settle into like the Stratford cadence when you’re heading back for your third season?
[Steven Hao]
Yeah, I mean, Stratford is so amazing, because while it’s a lot of work there, it is also an institution that I think forces you to slow down as an artist, especially if you’re traveling from out of town, because suddenly there is a financial security in that there is like, oh, you’re getting paid to to work and to work very hard. But at the same time, it’s also like, again, you’re rehearsing more than one show at a time. And each show sort of, you could just spend like three whole months on it before you open.
So it sort of forces you to slow down into really understanding what you need to do in your work to develop to deliver and develop really strong, really strong work for for the stage. So that’s really refreshing Toronto, you don’t sort of get that kind of privilege of time. But it but it’s also tricky because Stratford when it comes down to it, it is a tourist town, which means that when the tourists come, it’s when the town feels the most alive and feel the most whatever.
But during your rehearsal periods, which is often in the winter, everything closes at seven, you finish rehearsals, there’s nowhere to nowhere to hang out, you just kind of go home and you read a book and go to bed, which as a young person can sometimes feel quite frustrating, in terms of wanting to, you know, go out and wanting to spend time hanging out with your co workers, which is the other major thing, right? So many, so many Stratford actors are often folks who also has been there for a long time and who lives there.
So a lot of time you finish rehearsal, you go, anybody want to grab a drink? And then a lot of them will go, no, I have to go home to my kid and wife. Hey, which is such a different culture.
Yeah, culturally different.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, sure. I’m sure. Well, Stephen, thank you so much for talking.
I’ve really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks so much for giving me some time today.
[Steven Hao]
Yeah, thank you so much for doing this. I’m this is this was the absolute best. Thank you for your questions.
And it was very, very fun talking to you as well.
