Toronto Fringe Extra 3
This week on Stageworthy, host Phil Rickaby brings you a third Toronto Fringe Extra episode, featuring interviews with 4 Toronto Fringe Artists, in advance of the Toronto Fringe Festival, running July 2-13 at various locations around Toronto.
In this episode:
Laura Piccinin, co-creator and producer of the new musical Apothecary
SHOW INFO AND TICKETS: https://fringetoronto.com/fringe/show/apothecary
From Regarding Antigone, Dramaturg esi calendar and Assistant Director, Sarah Larmony
SHOW INFO AND TICKETS: https://fringetoronto.com/fringe/show/regarding-antigone
Alicia Payne, playwright and co-prodcer of Justice for Maurice Henry Carter
SHOW INFO AND TICKETS: https://fringetoronto.com/fringe/show/justice-maurice-henry-carter
Writer and performer of Terrible Fish, Montreal’s Caitlin Murphy.
SHOW INFO AND TICKETS: https://fringetoronto.com/fringe/show/terrible-fish
Watch for another Toronto Fringe Extra on Thursday, Next week!
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Transcript
[Phil Rickaby]
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Stageworthy, I am the host and producer of this podcast, Phil Rickaby. It is a hot day. And so because it’s hot, I’m thinking about the Toronto fringe festival, because what better time to think about fringe than when it’s hot because, uh, fringe happens in the summer, sorry about that.
I don’t know why that sounds so dumb to me, but it does anyway, this is your Toronto fringe extra for this week. I have four shows to talk to you about this week, and I’ll get into what those are in just a minute. But first I want to remind you that if you are watching on YouTube, which you can do, you could see all of these interviews.
You see them visually rather than just listening to them. You could do that at the stage where the YouTube channel, but if you are there, make sure that you like this episode, if you’re watching, and if you’ve liked what you’ve seen so far, make sure you subscribe to the podcast by hitting that subscribe button and click that little bell icon. So you get notified whenever I drop a new episode on YouTube, but if you’re just listening to the audio version, that’s cool to make sure that you’re subscribed to this podcast, don’t just go to stage worthy.ca to listen, you can subscribe to the podcast so that every time I put out an episode, it will download to your mobile device or whatever device you want to be listening on, whether that is a mobile device or on your computer, just go to your favorite podcast app, look up stage worthy and hit the subscribe button or the follow button, depending on what platform you’re looking at. Before we just get into the show itself, I do want to remind you about my Patreon because I cannot do this show without the patrons who’ve chosen to back this podcast. That’s the entire reason I’m able to do this show.
I had to take a year long hiatus. I said goodbye to the show. I thought I’d said goodbye to the show because for seven years, I had just been putting money into the podcast.
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And so I stopped. I wanted to get back to doing this podcast. And so my patrons are what has allowed me to do that.
And patrons for $7 Canadian a month are getting the ability to get episodes early. And also, we’re having some great conversations about issues that are coming up. And the more patrons who join, the more content I’ll be able to offer to them exclusively to the patrons who have backed this.
And if you’re interested in backing this show and helping me make this show, helping me create this show, go to patreon.com slash stageworthy and back the podcast, become a patron and you too can get early access, can participate in some awesome discussions about issues facing Canadian theatre and just help me make the show. This week on this Toronto Fringe Extra, I have four shows to tell you about. First up, Laura Piccinin, who is no stranger to this show.
Laura has been on the show at least three times previously. So I would call Laura a friend of the pod. Laura is the co-creator and producer of Apothecary, which is a new musical premiering this year at the Toronto Fringe.
Next up, esi callender and Sarah Larmony, the dramaturge and assistant director of Regarding Antigone, give us the scoop on this new solo play from Iranian feminist playwright Banafsheh Hassani. Then the playwright and co-producer of Justice for Maurice Henry Carter, Alicia Payne, tells us about that show, which is part of the Next Stage series at the Toronto Fringe. Then, as the last interview of this Fringe Extra, Montreal-based writer and performer Caitlin Murphy talks about her solo show, Terrible Fish, which she describes as cheeky, witty, and more than a little unhinged.
So let’s get into the interviews. I’ll see you next week for a regular episode and the last of the Fringe Extras. Laura Piccinin, thank you so much for joining me.
It’s a pleasure to have you back on stage, Ruthie. You’re no stranger to the program, and I’m so happy to have you back. I would love to hear about your show, Apothecary.
What can you tell me?
[Laura Piccinin]
Well, hello. Thank you for having me back. I’m so excited.
And I’m so excited, first off the top, that you’re back doing this. This is the perfect timing. You know, Canada just needs this revamp of being obsessed with itself, and this is just the perfect timing.
So I’m so glad. So Apothecary, the second musical that Alison Wither and I have written together, the first being Every Silver Lining. And Apothecary started as a project through St. Lawrence College, actually. They approached us and they said, can you write a show for our second and third year students? We’re trying something new. We’d like just to devise the theatre that work with them.
So you can write anything you want, but just know you’ll have 11, 12, 11 women. And we thought to ourselves, okay, what would we write for 11 women? And they said, oh, don’t worry.
You know, some of the women, they can play men. You can be free with what you want. And we thought, you know, what would we do?
What would we do with 11 women? And out came Apothecary, this very folksy, witchy, community vibe of women helping women. We were like, we were caught on this question of like, what does it mean to be a woman, to be a woman, to be a woman?
And then, you know, that definition continues to expand and grow and change. And we thought, well, what is it then? What is it if it keeps moving?
And the idea is community. In a world built for men, women create community. And that kind of solidified what the show is.
And so the structure is that the Apothecary is this magical and timeless space where women come in from all timelines and they they receive help from Lady and Tilly, who are the keepers of the Apothecary.
[Phil Rickaby]
That’s I mean, I love the idea. I love the conversation about about community. Community is like a thing that I think everybody is searching for.
And so few people can find. Fringe actually kind of acts as a as a as the meeting place for the theatre community in Toronto. So as far as like community for women, again, even more important, take some men out of the conversation, bring in women’s voices.
Aside from the the like this being sort of a commissioned piece. How did you come up with like decide what characters were going to be involved in this show?
[Laura Piccinin]
We did a lot of work with the SLC women and said, OK, what does it mean to be willing to you bring in some thoughts? And so we we touched on all the topics that meant a lot to everyone who was there. And from there, I also did some research.
I’m a I’m an avid podcast listener, actually. And so I was actually traveling while I was writing it. So I was like, great.
I’ll get some source material from some podcasts, some medical podcasts, some history podcasts and women centric podcasts. And the women’s stories came to me kind of randomly from the the devised theatre and then also from the podcast world. And I you know, as I’m listening, what I’m doing is listening for something that I can see.
You know, I think a director does this. I’m not a director, but I think this is the closest thing to direction that I have is like the podcast story is coming in about what’s happening to these women in history. And I can see it in my mind’s eye on the stage.
And those stories made it into the script. It wasn’t really based on my interests or anything like that. It was what did I what could I see that I could write into a scene?
And so we chose we wanted to go a little bit miscellaneous with the categories because we didn’t want to streamline too hard in one direction. So we wanted to find different time periods, different elements and things like that. So it’s it will feel a little random in that way.
But the thing that connects everything is this very unfortunate theme that. All health, societal, individual, familial is somehow boiled down to women’s morality and goodness. And it’s always their fault.
Anything that happens to anyone in all of society from the beginning of time is women’s fault. And it’s like and it continues in its own way. It morphs and it changes.
And that was so that was so interesting to be able to connect these quite random stories of health and need and community and always have it come back to. It’s their fault somehow, it’s their fault. And and then and then overcoming that with this idea of community saying it’s actually it’s not your fault, but because women aren’t allowed to talk about these things or because, you know, they don’t have any more answers than they have.
There is nobody from the future that comes back and says, actually, it’s not you. It’s this is a medical condition. And it’s it’s actually on them to figure out what it is.
If they don’t know, you know, it’s not. It’s not on you to be believed. You know, it’s on them to figure it out.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I want to talk a bit about about Alison Wither, your your your co-creator for this show.
Alison worked with you on every silver, every silver lining. And, you know, this is so this is not your first time working together. How did that partnership start and how has it developed?
So what is it flowered into?
[Laura Piccinin]
Yeah, that’s one of my favorite things. Ali and I met at a rap party for a show we were both in. But because we we didn’t interact in the show, we never really met.
And I come in late. So we knew each other, but we didn’t really know each other. We were at Frankie’s.
You know, we had done the show at the lot. And this feels like I think this is now 10 years ago. Yes.
Ten years ago. We’re sitting there in the booth and she’s saying, oh, I’ve got these songs that I’ve written. And I say, oh, I’ve got these short stories that I’ve been writing.
I know what to do with them. I don’t know what to do to mine either. We start talking.
We both learn. We have had had friends die when we were in high school. And that like what an experience that was the thing we had in common.
And then we wrote every silver lining about that, which, you know, was very difficult source material to start with for a new partnership because we cared so deeply about the material. And we were we found it difficult to let go, to hold on to things, to give each other notes because we were so intense about the material. But we made it through and we did a very good job.
And one of my favorite things that some of the thing I’m most proud of is the way that Ali and I have developed into a partnership, the way that we communicate with one another, learning how does the other person take notes? Well, when do we put a pin in it? We’ve learned so wonderfully that sometimes the problem solves itself.
Sometimes we sit there and we’re like, oh, we don’t know. I don’t I don’t quite feel this or it for me. This is why it feels this way or whatever.
And we’ll get talking and we’ll say, you know what? Put a pin in it. We’ll come back to it in two weeks.
Sometimes it’s not even there anymore. Sometimes other things that we discover through our writing process answer the question that we’ve been stuck on and just learning how to do that process and to trust each other that we’re not judging each other, where we both want the show to succeed and we both care about each other and about the show and to not lose sight of that and then to communicate the way that the other person wants to be communicated with. Not the way you think that you’re you’re like, I’m being nice and I’m doing such a good job. Are they receiving that well?
If they’re not, then you change what you’re the way that you’re saying that. And anyway, it is the thing I’m most proud about as an artistic creator, because I think it’s more difficult to find an artistic partner than it is to find a romantic partner, because the only thing holding us together is our desire to stay together in the art for the work.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s always good, though, when you have when you develop to shorthand with somebody and you can start to. You don’t need as many words to communicate what you what you want after you’ve had that time working together, which is one of my favorite things about working with other people.
[Laura Piccinin]
Yeah. Ali has her famous in my brain. It goes like this.
And our director, actually, Cass Van Wick has her phrases like, OK, this is the bad version. She she wants to pitch an idea, but she’s like, this isn’t it. This isn’t it.
I just need to say it out loud. Here’s the bad version. And I’m going to say it and then we can build from there.
Like she’s just prepping. And in that shorthand, you’re right. It works.
It’s effective because we all know the vibe. No one’s defensive when you know.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Well, we haven’t even talked about Cass Van Wick. How did Cass come into this into this production?
[Laura Piccinin]
We’re so lucky. Cass has been a dramaturg for me for a couple of my solo shows, Go and Suicide Key. And she I have always loved working with her.
I find her to be very generous and open and, you know, especially in something that’s so collaborative. We’ve already agreed that between myself, Ali and Cass, we’re just going to kind of tag team production creation and everything that comes with that. And Cass, I think, is a really wonderful collaborator.
And and because Ali and I have built this collaboration over 10 years, it’s like Cass has is tasked with kind of sliding in, figuring it out. And she’s done such a wonderful job. And I knew she would.
And and we’re so glad to have her because she’s a fringe veteran. And she knows what she’s doing. She she gets it.
She can read something and dial into what we’re doing and jump aboard and make our work better. You know, we don’t we don’t have to fight with her about what it is we’re doing. She gets it.
She’s on. She’s on board.
[Phil Rickaby]
Speaking of fringe veterans, you can probably you can use that title yourself. You’ve done a little bit of a bit of fringe, both in Toronto and touring your show, Let’s Be Honest. I want to talk about what fringe, the importance of fringe in the Canadian theatre industry and what you’ve learned about that as you’ve traveled to multiple fringe festivals.
[Laura Piccinin]
Yeah, I can’t talk enough about how important the Fringe Festival is to to Canada, to artists, to everything. You know, it’s such a uniquely Canadian experience. And I’m I’m kind of baffled as to why it’s not more celebrated by by the news, by Air Canada should play a commercial on your way.
Welcome to Canada, wherever you land, find a Fringe Festival near you. There’s one there. There’s one in every city.
And it’s like not every single city, but the big ones, you know, and there’s so many there everywhere. And it is that is where new content is born. And we know this.
We’ve seen things like Kim’s Convenience come out of the fringe. We we you can actually watch people’s legacies being built through the fringe. And it gives you it gives you all these tools as a producer, as a creator to do whatever it is you want.
You know, we spend so much of our lives as artists waiting for people to give us jobs and to give us the validation that you are an artist. You are you’re good. You’re welcome to the industry.
And it was only through my time on the fringe circuit that I’m like, I don’t need that permission. I am the artist. I’m here.
Look at all these people who are also here. And the fringe circuit itself is full of people who do this full time. And they build their shows and they tour them and they don’t need permission from anyone else to to be or not to be anything.
And and they change and they morph and they create. And that is their art. And getting that confidence behind me was I can’t I can’t be more grateful for that experience.
I think anyone who has the opportunity to do any fringe festival anywhere really should just to see what it’s like to have that kind of control over your art.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, not just the control. I mean, the connections that you make on the fringe circuit are I mean, they’re they’re really strong. Like what’s it been through a festival with somebody?
Your family, you’ve been through some stuff. And it’s one of my favorite things. Not only do you get to meet people from all over the world and like really make strong connections with them, but you kind of get to put your hands in a different city’s theatre scene for a bit and like really sort of get a sense for what what do they like here, you know?
And it’s it’s really quite a fascinating experience that I agree any everybody should should should go to tapping into those other artists skills.
[Laura Piccinin]
I’ve learned so much about clown and magic and about what what are the limits to live theatre? You know what? It blew my mind to be able to tap into those artists and then go to see their shows.
Free and then talk to them afterward, you know, at the pub and get to know each other. Now I have like, I don’t know, 65 touring fringe artists of all these different disciplines that I can I can say, hey, has anyone you know what what kind of merch are you merch are you working on right now? And like, what are you finding is the best ticket price?
And how are you know these little details about producing and creating? You know, we need that. We need this community of artists to to reinvigorate itself.
You know, we there’s a little bit of an idea that to go to America is to make it. And there’s a big push to get good enough in Canada to leave and get good enough in Canada to stay to stay and make it big and good. And just today, the and Juliet cast came out.
And I was like, yes, an all Canadian cast. We know those people. We know those people.
And they’re going to be fantastic. And this is such a great way to launch right now.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely, absolutely. One of the things that I love about about fringe and and the fringe artists is that nobody’s gatekeeping that very information. But you can ask what everybody’s doing for merch, like you said, and nobody’s like, well, I can’t tell you because this is mine.
Everybody’s everybody shares all of the information, which is, you know, again, it makes it so open and so warm. And it’s a it’s a great way for artists to connect. And because we’re not in competition with each other, we are sharing the audience.
[Laura Piccinin]
There’s room for all of us. There’s there really is. It seems like they’re not.
It seems like the jobs are sparse. But again, it’s a reframing of sure, the jobs are sparse. If you’re waiting for someone to give you a job.
Sure. Maybe maybe that is the case. Like, I don’t want to I don’t want to downplay anyone’s struggle.
But at the same time, you find your way. You you will you you it’s you got to figure it out. And but it is there and there’s room for all of us, especially if we do it together and say, oh, I’m not available for this festival.
But actually, I know someone else who’d be really good for this job and then lift them up. And that has happened to me a number of times off the fringe circuit, actually.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely. Absolutely. A fringe is such an essential part of all of that.
So, again, it I’ve said it before. It’s my favorite time of year.
[Laura Piccinin]
Yeah. Yeah. Fringeness.
Here it comes.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely. Well, Laura, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you giving me some of your time.
And again, it’s wonderful to see you again.
[Laura Piccinin]
Yeah, you too. Always. Thank you.
[Phil Rickaby]
esi and Sarah, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you making some time for me today. Tell me about and regarding Antigone.
[esi calendar]
Yeah, maybe we can start there with the name, which I think a lot of times people think is going to be an adaptation of Antigone. But the name is inspired by regarding the pain of others from Susan Sontag and the classic Greek tragedy Antigone and regarding the pain of others is a study of war photography. So our piece is about witnessing and it’s also about state violence.
Yeah. And it’s a solo show. It’s 30 minutes long.
And what else should we say about it? Written by Banafsheh Hassani.
[Sarah Larmony]
Yeah. I think it’s important to mention that Benafshe is an Iranian Canadian author, and this is a play that is really near and dear to them and kind of discusses a lot of these difficult things that are happening in the world, especially in Iran. And it’s like a really powerful piece that kind of like encapsulates a lot of different things that are happening in the world and can apply to many different people.
But it is also very an Iranian play.
[Phil Rickaby]
You are the dramaturg and the assistant director. What drew you each to this production?
[esi calendar]
I think partly it’s both that we’re former collaborators of Benafshe’s and good friends of theirs. And when they brought us this script, we were excited for the chance to support them kind of like coming into their voice as a playwright so much more through this piece. And also, it’s just it started with really strong writing, too.
So the first paragraph of the script, which is still, I think, almost intact from the very first draft, it just right away hooks you in and it uses kind of a dramatic tool we had never really seen used in that way before, where the performer is describing everything that they’re doing on stage as they’re doing it. And everything they say has a twist in it. And so a lot of the staging process has also been like about taking those twists further and further.
Yeah. So I think for me, that was one of the things that really drew me. And then also actually the subject matter of state violence, I found a lot of connections with our context here, too.
[Sarah Larmony]
Yeah, I think in the role as assistant director was a lot about those twists and turns that happen. There’s a lot of unpredictability. There’s a lot of like hidden things that are happening that aren’t in the script that are maybe happening physically or through the stage itself and the language of props that I think are very rich for any director to get their hands on.
[Phil Rickaby]
Sarah, as assistant director, what’s the most important aspect of your role with this show?
[Sarah Larmony]
I think so for me personally, what I love doing in directing is really getting to the core of how an actor really embodies what is occurring for the characters within the writing, like really being able to hold the emotional space for them and kind of live these characters live for any given time. And Banofshi is a really strong performer. I think that there’s a lot of this happening in the writing and in the production itself, but everyone gets to see it finally.
That just tickles me in the right way, for lack of a better term.
[esi calendar]
And if I can say from the outside of that role, what I’ve seen is like we have this our director, Art Babayans, who’s taking care a lot of this like overall staging concept and this contradiction between words and what’s shown on stage and this object theatre that is happening. And then Sarah’s delving more into the characters with the performer and also doing a lot of the care practices that are important to us in the work in terms of like it’s an emotionally intense play. So being there with the performer to help them cool down and get check out of that and step out of that emotional intensity.
And that’s been really important. Yeah. Yeah.
[Sarah Larmony]
And yeah, they also kind of prepared a little bit for this care practice to also reach the audience themselves. So it’s going to be interesting to see how it works out.
[Phil Rickaby]
I would actually love to talk about that because I think that the rehearsal hall is a it’s a space that can be very warm and can be very supportive. But in some situations, it can it can be the opposite. And having a having care built into the rehearsal process is a huge and I think innovative thing that needs to be done more.
Where did that come from for this production? Was it always baked in or did it come as part of the process?
[Sarah Larmony]
Oh, it was definitely not baked in. All of us as part of the collective, we kind of really felt that throughout our personal training in theatre that this was something that we felt was really missing in the space. And it originally came from us wanting to find how to do a rehearsal process and a production process that allowed us to care for ourselves.
But then also being able to extend that to our audience because of the heavy content. We went and we did multiple workshops with different care consultants throughout our process, checking back in with them and really being able to try to find ways to adjust our care practice for whoever is in need.
[esi calendar]
And it’s a really big work in progress. This is a collaboration between two emerging collectives. So my collective sort of productions, I co-founded with a friend, Ollie, back in 2017.
And then we also had questions about how do we start to do care in a way that and kind of oppose these things we were taught in theatre school about pushing yourself to your limits to be able to do your art, which is an important aspect is to push yourself, of course, but also not to destroy yourself. I think it’s also important. And so we were working around that.
And now we’re working with the Sky’s Limit Theatre that Sarah and Benafshe founded, and they have their own practices and ideas about this. For me, it feels like even though actually we’ve been doing it, thinking about it for a long time, it’s like every production is a new chance to try it and has new challenges. Also working with very little money and, you know, between some limitations around time or a lot of feelings about how much time people give to a project that they’re not getting paid very much to be a part of.
[Sarah Larmony]
Also, something that’s really important is that, well, with the Sky’s the Limit, we always work with new collectives and new people. And for us, we kind of focus a lot on, OK, we’re working with people from different backgrounds, either ethnic backgrounds, national backgrounds, like accessibility backgrounds, and being able to alter each other’s needs and meeting each other where we’re at at the beginning of this process really changes how our care practice grows.
[esi calendar]
So I guess even though it wasn’t baked into the theatre knowledge we inherited from school or from professional experiences, it’s definitely baked into the work that we’re trying to do together. And sometimes it also takes the shape of just, like, we try to cook meals for every rehearsal so that we eat together and we have this, like, point of sharing. It’s also work, though, to do.
And, you know, these care consultants that Sarah mentioned are, like, a drama therapist in training, an active listener, someone who teaches active listening, and then Peter Farbridge from Postmarginal Theatre, who has this ethical tapestry workshop, which is a way of asking questions about the ethics of the play you’re working on in terms of both content, form, and process.
[Phil Rickaby]
I’m curious, because, you know, I know what a dramaturg does, and I think, and there’s different traditions for what a dramaturg does depending on the show. There’s a British version and a Canadian version. There’s a lot of differences, but I think that the average theatre goer does not know what a dramaturg does.
So, Essie, tell me, what is the role of a dramaturg?
[esi calendar]
Yeah, I mean, sometimes I joke and I’m like, a dramaturg is just, like, a little friend, but I guess it is more than that. So, in this process, we were kind of lucky because one of the funding sources we did get was Jeune Volontaire, which is, like, for people under 30 to be able to carry out a project and get mentored in doing that and get paid for it. So, for two months of our project, Benafshy and I got to work as a playwright and a dramaturg together.
And what I made that role into, which is basically a role about supporting the playwright in writing the text, I mean, in the context we’re working in, and yeah, so what I made that into was that I was, like, creating kind of these little workshops for Benafshy around writing, so writing exercises, some, like, physical exploration, because we were really curious about, like, embodied writing, and also just space to talk through what their references are, like, especially because it’s a play coming from a cultural context that I’m not from, like, coming from this Iranian context, what are the things that are, like, woven into their text that are really important? And so, like, both of us doing research sometimes about theatre making and different ways of structuring plays and different theatre styles that are kind of hinted at or maybe are already in our piece, and also doing this cultural research or this historical research, and then having a space to talk about it.
And I think what was useful from that is partly that it made Benafshy’s references explicit so that we can also understand them as a team who are from different cultural backgrounds, and clarified in some cases what they wanted, where they were going with the piece, and also it, through this kind of, like, doing a lot of work around the play and not directly rewriting the play, but being like, do this writing exercise and explore this character in this way, it gave them a lot of space to, like, just walk around the world they were making without having to make decisions right away. And so when they did go to rewrite the new draft of the script, I feel like they had that kind of whole world, and they were like, okay, I can do this now. I mean, it still felt, of course, it’s always, like, a lot of pressure when you have to rewrite a script, but that was basically the exploration work we did together, and I was just their little friend through that, yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
I like that, the playwright’s little friend. Now, this play is being performed at the Tarragon Solo Room at the Toronto Fringe, which is an incredibly intimate space. There is not a lot of space between performer and audience, it’s very close.
What do you think is the benefit to that space for a show like this?
[Sarah Larmony]
I’m so excited that it’s going to be a small room, because we, the way that the show was staged was that it was a very contained environment, and we even did a showcase with a test audience to just see how this proximity to the show would have an impact on people, and some of the people during the showcase even said, I wish we were closer. I wish you would, like, come into the audience and interact with us and, like, terrify me even more if possible, you know? Yeah, I think the small space is going to work to our benefit a lot more.
Like, in Montreal, we’re working with an audience that’s a bit further away, and I’m kind of curious about what this… We play with distance a lot in the show, and I’m curious to see what distance is actually going to cause our audience to feel about what’s happening on stage.
[esi calendar]
Yeah, it’s a play that plays a lot with this thing of, like, what’s real and what’s not real, and how close or far are you from the thing you’re witnessing, and so the actual physical proximity then becomes a big part of that question, because if you can, like, almost feel someone’s breath, you’re, like, not that far from them, but if emotionally you put yourself at a distance, that’s still… That does something, or that means something.
[Sarah Larmony]
Yeah, I think the staging in this sense is really going to play with the privilege that we want to kind of understand about what’s… Yeah, the privilege around being able to witness this kind of show or these kinds of events happening, and have that be, like, this huge question that people walk away with, I think.
[Phil Rickaby]
You said Montreal. Are you… Is this show at the Montreal Fringe?
[esi calendar]
It’s at the Montreal Fringe. It’s at the Conservatoire de la Musique de la Drame, here in the multimedia room there, so it’s a bit of a bigger room where we’re, yeah, debuting, I guess, and it just… It’s opening on Friday.
[Phil Rickaby]
As you record this, it is imminent. It is… It is very imminent.
Now, are you Montreal natives? Are you from Toronto? What’s the connection there?
[esi calendar]
No, I grew up on Vancouver Island, Nanaimo or Sinema, and… I’m from New York City.
[Phil Rickaby]
Okay, okay.
[esi calendar]
Vanavshay is obviously coming from Iran. Actually, Corbeau is the only person born here in Montreal, or Tragay, and our director, Art Babayants, is Armenian-Canadian. Yeah, so we’re cut from all over.
[Phil Rickaby]
That’s awesome. That’s awesome. And Montreal is…
And as I’m sure you will experience, and as I’m sure you will have many people tell you, is a great place to kick off a fringe.
[esi calendar]
It’s our first Toronto Fringe too, so that’s…
[Phil Rickaby]
Oh, oh, okay. So are you guys… Do you have, in general, are you having…
Do you have a history with fringe? Or is this generally your first fringe experience in general?
[Sarah Larmony]
Well, we dabbled.
[esi calendar]
Yeah, we dipped our toes. We both, we’ve had… Each of our companies has had performances in fringe before, and we both have performed at Mission Santa Cruz here in Montreal, which is like a church basement venue.
So for us, it’s kind of a big upgrade, just that it may be in multimedia.
[Sarah Larmony]
Yeah, but… We’re still waiting. Yeah, no.
I think that’s our history. I’ve done a show… The first fringe I did was like a really last minute.
We… Somebody had dropped out two weeks before we started, and me and Benofche got together, pulled some other random people, and just decided to build a show in two weeks and put it on. So we really just like took the fringe spirit and ran with it.
[Phil Rickaby]
What more could you ask for? What more could you ask for? I do want to comment and say about the Montreal Fringe, and take note that this is the last year for the Mainline Theatre, who is the host of the Fringe.
Mainline is looking for a new space, but the space that they’re in is going away, which is kind of sad. So I will ask you each to, for me, raise a glass to the Mainline at the end of the Fringe. And salsa.
Raise some salsa for me at the end of Fringe. I really appreciate it. And thank you so much.
I really… I’m excited for you guys to bring the show to Toronto. I’m excited to see it at the solo room.
Thank you so much for giving me some of your time today.
[Sarah Larmony]
Thank you so much. Thank you. Also, guys, tip your fringe.
Just saying.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely. Absolutely. Tip your fringe.
Alicia Payne, thank you so much for joining me. I’m thrilled to be talking to you today. Could you tell me about the show that you’re bringing to Fringe this year?
[Alicia Payne]
Yes, I can. It’s called Justice for Maurice Henry Carter. And it was co-written by Donald Molnar and myself.
And it’s based on the true story of a wrongful conviction. So it’s something that really happened in Michigan. And there’s an organization here.
It used to be called Aidwick, and now it’s Innocence Canada. And they got involved in the case. And the play weaves in acapella music, gospel, hymns, spirituals.
[Phil Rickaby]
So Innocence Canada got involved in a wrongful conviction case in the U.S.? Yes, they did. I didn’t even… Is that a common occurrence?
Or was this a special circumstance? Do you know?
[Alicia Payne]
I don’t know that it’s called common. And Innocence Canada is part of an Innocence network. It’s an international network of organizations.
So they do speak with each other and provide information. So that’s one of the ways they sometimes help each other review cases.
[Phil Rickaby]
Right. Okay. So you wrote this with Donald Molnar.
Did you guys come up with the concept together? Or did one of you bring it to the other? And I also want to talk about how you became writing partners.
[Alicia Payne]
Okay. Well, actually, it came up at a birthday party. So we were at a birthday party.
And Doug Chapkis is one of the men who lived this story. And one of his friends was up in Canada at this birthday party. He told my partner, who’s Donald Molnar.
We’re married. So we’re life partners as well as writing partners. A two-four right there.
And so once he heard the story, and I was singing in a choir. So he told me the story. And we were like, we want to write this.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s a really compelling story. And it’s not just a straight prose telling. You’re bringing music into it.
Was the fact that you were singing in a choir at the time that you heard this story something that informed the fact that you’re also going to be weaving music into this story?
[Alicia Payne]
Absolutely. It did. And more importantly, Doug Chapkis, he’s in his 80s and he is still a church organist.
With a church organ salesman, had radio stations. And so music was a big part and still is a big part of his life. So we were like, we got to put music in this.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Now, you Adon, you mentioned you guys are a married couple. Have you always written together?
Or how did the writing partnership come together aside from the life partner?
[Alicia Payne]
We had written one other phone script together. And then when this play came up, it just made sense for us to combine forces. So I have that musical background.
Don loved the story. I love the story. And we just said, yeah, let’s write this one together.
[Phil Rickaby]
And writing with a partner. I mean, there’s different ways to do it. Do you guys have a particular way of writing together that you practice?
[Alicia Payne]
It’s a lot of conversations and just back and forth and just throwing ideas together and writing. And sometimes we’ll each take a part and then switch. So the other one will read over it, make some suggestions.
So we really did write this together.
[Phil Rickaby]
When you’re writing something, it can be a really passionate process. And it can, especially as somebody who writes on my own, it can be a bit frustrating when somebody else comes in with their own idea, their separate ideas. Do you have a language that the two of you use for navigating when there are differences of opinion in writing?
[Alicia Payne]
Yes, and it’s a it’s a back and forth language. It’s like, well, I think this and I think that. And what about this?
What about that? OK, you know, what can you live with? What can’t you live with?
OK, I can I can give that one out. So really collaborative.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah. A writing partner, there has to be a lot of trust when you’re writing with someone. And so what as a couple that that trust must also like it goes both ways, both into the writing and into into the relationship.
It must improve the trust that you have together.
[Alicia Payne]
I think so. We’re both writers individually, and we actually bounce ideas off of each other. So even when Don’s writing something on his own or I’m writing something on my own, we are each other’s sounding boards.
[Phil Rickaby]
Now, the the the it’s obvious that the. The story behind this play is very important as far as, you know, not just like miscarriages of justice, but the fact that black people and black men in particular are often receiving harsher sentences and even harsher scrutiny in these situations. What what do you as this comes to the fringe, what are you most excited for fringe audiences to learn or to see in this show?
[Alicia Payne]
Oh, my goodness. So much. I have to say we have incredible lead.
We’ve got R.H. Thompson and Walter Borden. And so that alone is going to be just something to behold. And it’s really important for people to know that wrongful convictions can happen to anyone.
A lot of us just think, well, I’m innocent. I don’t do anything wrong. I’m going to be fine if the police come up to me and say, hey, well, you know, could just ask you a few questions.
I’ll just answer them because I’m innocent. And more often than not, that’s a mistake because the police don’t always let you know that they actually think that you were guilty and you’re a suspect. So that’s something that happened to Maurice in this case.
They said, well, if you’re guilty, just come and talk to us. And he went and talked to them. And twenty nine years later, he was in prison.
[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, they are allowed to lie to you, the police. They can bring you into they can lie to you and tell you that you’re not a suspect when you are. They could do all kinds of things.
They don’t have to always be truthful. And so that you can find yourself in a bad situation when you think you’re doing the right thing by being just honest and open.
[Alicia Payne]
Absolutely.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Now, you mentioned your stellar cast. That is no slouch of a cast that you have there.
Did you how did you bring in the how did this cast come together? How did the production team come together for this show?
[Alicia Payne]
Well. I’ve got to say that both R.H. and Walter, in addition to being incredible artists, they are incredibly generous. And I think over time, our paths just connected.
It shows or even on the TTC. And eventually I got brave enough to ask and they were kind enough to read the script. And then they said, yes.
[Phil Rickaby]
I have to ask if that was like a nerve wracking moment for you is asking that question, because it could be like, you know, sometimes asking asking anybody to be involved in a show can be stressful, but somebody of a certain stature that can also be even more nerve wracking.
[Alicia Payne]
It was, especially since with R.H., I was on the TTC and I saw him. And so for years, Don and I are both thinking he’d be fantastic. And then I just walked over and we had sat beside each other at a show another time.
So it’s just one of those things that just you keep bumping into people. You have conversations. And I asked, would you read our play?
[Phil Rickaby]
And wow, he must have obviously he said yes. And now and now he’s in this show at the Toronto Fringe.
[Alicia Payne]
Yes. And the same thing with Walter. It was like not a lot of notice.
And we said, Walter, you know, we went through his agent and his agent was kind enough to pass the script. And Walter quickly came back and said, yes. So again, just being being really generous in addition to being talented.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Amazing. Now, as sorry, as we’re as we’re saying, the this show is is is is this premiering at the Toronto Fringe?
Is this the first production?
[Alicia Payne]
It’s not the first production. And we actually were in the Fringe in 2010 and did a workshop production with a cast of 15. And so this is a scaled down version with a cast of six.
[Phil Rickaby]
Right. And also part of the next stage, which I was I was I neglected to say part of next stage next stage is is unique in the Toronto Fringe ecosystem. This is the first time that next stage has been occurring alongside the Toronto Fringe.
Now, you mentioned having, you know, doing the workshop at the Fringe previously. What is what’s your relationship with the Toronto Fringe been like in the past? How like how have you participated aside from from this show?
[Alicia Payne]
Oh, my goodness. I love the Fringe. I’m an audience member, so I’m in this year.
But when I’m not in, I attend Fringe shows. I’ve been in Fringe shows. And beyond the shows, there’s also so much networking.
They have events for artists to speak with each other. So I just love what they do, what they bring to the city, what they bring to the arts. It’s an incubator.
It really is.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. And it’s also one of the things that I like is it’s one of the few times in the year that the the Toronto theatre world has like a place where people go like it’s the one time of year when everybody can where you see pretty much everybody at the Fringe, which is rare and wonderful.
[Alicia Payne]
I love it. And the audiences can’t forget the audiences. They’re so amazing.
[Phil Rickaby]
I love the fact that audiences at the Fringe are probably more adventurous than they would be at any other time of year. They’re just willing to jump in on so many shows and it’s such a such an enthusiastic audience to, you know, to go to a show. It’s just some of them spending like multiple days just going to show after show after show and just being as enthusiastic at the beginning of the festival as they are at the end.
[Alicia Payne]
Yes, and a little more tired.
[Phil Rickaby]
Well, everybody’s a little more tired. That’s the that’s the one thing we can all be sure of. What is your you mentioned doing this as a as a workshop previously.
What did you learn from that workshop that you’ve taken into this iteration of the show?
[Alicia Payne]
A lot. One of the things was that we did it in the Fringe with 15 people, because that’s one of the few places in the city where you can bring a new work as an independent artist, that many people on stage and try something out. So we learned that that works having a large course.
And for this one, we want to see how a smaller course can work. And it’s built so that if and when it travel, it can fit in any size. So somebody may say, we’ve got a large theatre, larger cast.
They can afford that. And it can also travel to smaller places. So that’s what we’ve learned.
And just more about the characters and and how to weave things in and out.
[Phil Rickaby]
As far as you’re I mean, you’re already speaking about the future of this show, which I think is is I think every everybody who creates a show at the Fringe dreams of its future and dreams of it having a future. Do you have a future that you dream of for this show?
[Alicia Payne]
Oh, absolutely. Starting with the next next production, we’d love that to actually be the premier production.
[Sarah Larmony]
Right.
[Alicia Payne]
It’s a full length piece. So we’re actually doing a shorter version of it. So we’re doing a 90 minute version of a longer piece.
So that’s another reason why it’s not a premiere. And we really want this story to travel. We’d love for it to travel around the world.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah. Um, now, just sort of as we’re as we’re sort of drawing closer to the end of our time here, this particular show at the next stage and Fringe is is extremely important just for its themes and the music. Now, you’re as you as you with which theatre is it at?
[Alicia Payne]
It’s at the it’s at the Michael Young Theatre, the Michael Young Theatre.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. So it’s part of the the the this the Soulpepper Hub. Yeah.
Which I’m super looking forward to just having having that hub. Are there are there aspects of Fringe that and this show at the Fringe and the the ecosystem of Fringe that you’re looking at at and particularly excited about at about experiencing with this show?
[Alicia Payne]
Yes. Being in the hub just to see what that does, knowing that this is the first time that the hub has been at Soulpepper and seeing what that does in terms of bringing audiences in and the opportunity to share more about not just our show, other shows as well, and to interact with other artists. So that’s going to be exciting.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.
[Alicia Payne]
I’ve mentioned Doug’s name, Doug Chapkus, one of the men who lived this story. And this story impacted him so much that he actually formed an organization. So there’s an organization in the United States called Humanity for Prisoners.
At first, it was innocence. And he thought, well, it’s important for people to be innocent. And then he realized the kind of treatment that people in prisons were getting was not very humane.
And so he started Humanity for Prisoners so that they didn’t just have to be innocent. You know, some people, society is better off having them in jail, and yet they’re still human beings. So there’s that aspect as well.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, absolutely. Is that, I mean, I want to make sure that we cover that a bit. Are there, you’re mentioning them in the program.
You’re going to have some information for that?
[Alicia Payne]
Absolutely. And for the audiences, there are a few things that are common to wrongful convictions. And so we’ll share that.
So sometimes false confessions. You think, why would somebody plead guilty to something they didn’t do? Sometimes the pressure that they’re under, or they’re thinking like, I have a family, I want to get to my kids, so I’ll take a shorter sentence rather than risk of life sentence.
Sometimes there’s tunnel vision with an investigation. So the authorities just decide that this person has done it, and they forget to look at other people. So those kinds of things.
So I think that’s also important for audiences to know that it really can happen to anybody.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. I think it’s also, I mean, just talking about the humanity for prisoners. And it is important.
We’re talking about, we’re in a situation where inhumane things are happening south of the border. And it is important that we reflect that even people who have broken the law deserve food, shelter, warmth, some comfort. They deserve comfort.
They’re in jail. What more could be bad? They deserve all of those things.
And so I think that organization obviously is super important as well.
[Alicia Payne]
Yes. And just the way you’re speaking, it also speaks to family and friends.
[Phil Rickaby]
Right. Yes.
[Alicia Payne]
Yes. The person in prison is one person, but then there is a huge ripple effect. And the way that families, friends get impacted is also devastating.
[Phil Rickaby]
Oh, of course. Of course. They’re in a way, the family and friends, they’re in a prison of their own as well.
[Alicia Payne]
In many respects.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. Well, Alicia, thank you so much for talking with me. I really appreciate you giving me some of your time.
And I’m looking forward to seeing your show at Next Stage.
[Alicia Payne]
Phil, thank you so much. Thank you for just lifting up the theatre community the way that you do with this show. And I’m looking forward to hearing more of your podcast and watching as many shows as I can at The Fringe.
[Phil Rickaby]
Caitlin Murphy, thank you so much for joining me. Just to get started, tell me about Terrible Fish.
[Caitlin Murphy]
Terrible Fish is my show of the Toronto Fringe Festival this year. It’s a brand new show. I’ve never done it before.
In fact, it’s very much still in development as we speak. So it’s a one-woman show, kind of cabaret I’m describing it as, because it’s got poetry, it’s got movement, it’s got stand-up, it’s got song. And it’s all dedicated to the subject of aging while female.
[Phil Rickaby]
This is, I mean, listen, the subject of aging while female is something that is not talked about often. Except as a punchline in some media. It’s like, da-da-da-da-da, menopause.
It’s like a huge, it’s a joke, and it is no joke. Tell me about what inspired you to write this show about aging.
[Caitlin Murphy]
Because I am aging. It’s definitely happening as we speak. I just turned 49 years old, so it’s definitely on my mind.
I’m a mother of two young boys, so it’s also a strange collision that I’ve got these two young people I’m responsible for that are boys and are becoming men at the same point in my life where I’m kind of like, I think I’m over men. So it’s strange to be raising them because I’m like, I, yeah, I don’t know what to say anymore about men to my boys. So just the kind of collision of getting older, feeling the thing women describe feeling in our culture, which is that the culture’s kind of done with you.
It’s like this kind of memo you get that’s like, you know what, thank you for your time. Thank you for these two children you produced in my case. But that is all.
We’re done with you. And you kind of feel a little bit written off. And I think most women my age could definitely relate to that feeling.
[Phil Rickaby]
I think there’s an interesting factor in that menopause is not something aside from the jokes or the jokes air quotes is something that that that has not been talked about. I know I know plenty of women who are in it and who are. They were kind of blindsided by everything that happens because and they kind of wish like, why didn’t my mother tell me about this?
Why didn’t why didn’t the people around me who were going through this tell me about this for you? What’s the what’s the importance of like having this? The importance of having this out in the in the open, talking about it openly.
[Caitlin Murphy]
Well, I think it is coming out more and more. There’s a huge success of a novel by Miranda July called All Fours, which like every book club with 40 plus women in it, we’re reading. There’s the show on CBC called Small Achievable Goals, the comedy about two women in their 40s or 50s dealing with menopause.
So it’s becoming kind of more and more in the zeitgeist, which is really interesting. I think people are just kind of fed up. It’s just like, look, this is a huge part of our life.
I was just working on a bit today in which we cite the fact that 42.5 percent of a woman’s life is post reproductive. So it’s a huge amount of someone’s life to be treating as kind of like, oh, yeah, then something happens and this change and you go over there. That feels pretty dismissive for such a huge part of someone’s life.
So I think it is kind of coming more and more into cultural consciousness as something like, why don’t we talk about this? It’s kind of ridiculous and outdated, really.
[Phil Rickaby]
Now, Caitlin, you’re a writer and performer from Montreal. And I’m you’re this, you know, you’re talking about this being like a brand new show still being developed as we as we speak and rehearsed. What’s what is as far as solo performance goes?
Is this your first? Is this like something new for you or is it or is it old hat?
[Caitlin Murphy]
I did a couple of women shows many years ago, so I haven’t done one in a while, but I did do a couple in my in my younger days. But I’ve done things like stand up and I’ve done spoken words. I’ve done different kinds of solo performance.
But in terms of doing like a full kind of 50 minute one woman show, it’s been a long time. And so I have a lot to say.
[Phil Rickaby]
What as far as like the creation process for this show, what is what does that look like for you, though, the writing of the show?
[Caitlin Murphy]
A lot of it comes in little snippets and little snatches. I tend to write and kind of fragments, and then I have to struggle to figure out how it all fits together. But because there’s so many different genres, like there’s songs, I’m playing piano, I’m playing guitar, reciting poetry is movement.
So it comes in these kind of different waves of creation. It didn’t feel so much like sitting down at the laptop writing as kind of just getting little inspirational moments. I read a ton.
So I’ve been immersed in all the literature about women and midlife and just kind of gleaning from all that what I could that could be brought back and inserted into the show and hopefully kind of elucidating, like illuminating for the audience.
[Phil Rickaby]
Are you writing all the songs that are in it as well? All right.
[Caitlin Murphy]
Well, yeah, there’s a song I was just practicing, actually, on the guitar called Dear Evolution. And it’s kind of like my letter to evolution going like, really, like this was you didn’t handle this very well. You know, like it’s it’s I think it’s worked over the species, but it’s not really worked out for me.
And I’ve got some complaints. So, yeah, all the songs and lyrics I’ve written as well.
[Phil Rickaby]
Nice. And now now you’re in Montreal, you’re coming to the Toronto fringe. And what’s your your history like with fringe in general?
[Caitlin Murphy]
I’ve done a few fringes. I’ve done the London, Ontario fringe. I did the Montreal fringe.
I’ve never done the Toronto fringe before. I have several good friends in Toronto. So I’m excited to call on them for favours, which they’re very happily delivering.
So I’m grateful for that. I haven’t done a fringe in a long time. It’s a bit of a young person’s game in some ways.
And so it feels weird kind of coming back into it because that I don’t know, that mode of fringe feels young to me. So it’s funny coming back into it so many years later as a mom, as a separated mom, as it’s kind of like almost turning 50. And just what does that look like from this perspective?
It’s kind of an interesting thing.
[Phil Rickaby]
It’s interesting to think of it as a as a as a young person’s game, because a lot of the artists that I know did a fringe tour in 2012 and a lot of the people who we met on that tour who came up a little while later, they’re all, you know, we’re all getting there. And so but but some of them are still are still doing fringes. They’re still they’re still doing it.
It’s kind of a mindset, right? Like as far as the if it’s a young person’s game, then it’s really a sort of like a young at heart game. It does take a lot of energy.
[Caitlin Murphy]
Yes, it is. I mean, it’s a great driver, too. So when I found out I got in, I mean, it really is what propels you to do the work, right?
Because, you know, you can have an idea or kicking it around. But until there’s any deadline or there’s some kind of need to do it, we’re lazy. We don’t really get the work done.
Right. But as soon as they were like, OK, I was on the waiting list and I got the call. There was a spot.
I was like, oh, shit. Like and now the creative juices have to flow like flow juices flow. And and it’s exciting to see what happens when you’ve got that kind of slot and it’s happening, how much kind of comes into being because you gotta.
[Phil Rickaby]
What what was the what at the time that that happened? How many of you got into the had this been like germinating as an idea or was it was it more of a, oh, I’m in fringe. Now I need to come up with a concept.
[Caitlin Murphy]
I know it’s been germinating for a while because it really I think, you know, I think most of them would agree in their 40s is like 42, 43 around in there. Something starts hitting you where you’re like, oh, shit, something is changing. Something really big is changing.
I’m not exactly sure how it’s all going to go down, but I don’t think it’s going very well. I think the patriarchy is done with me. Like it’s it was really very clear that something had changed.
And so it was hard not to kind of start thinking about how to respond to that.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, for sure. I mean, there’s certain I mean, you sort of alluded to it. There’s an invisibility that seems to be imposed on women once menopause hits, once the quote unquote childbearing years are done.
And that is something that is that is rarely spoken about, rarely addressed. What is as far as like putting all of this into a show, what are you most looking forward to an audience learning or experiencing?
[Caitlin Murphy]
I think just kind of really highlighting a lot of the hypocrisies that we just live with all the time, a lot of the assumptions that we have, a lot of the kind of cultural soup that we swim in and just kind of take for granted. And I’m trying to point out some of the stuff that that’s just kind of in the air. And yet we don’t really think about very much.
So I hope there’s a bit of a kind of disorientation, like a bit of like, wait a second, this has been really super normalized. And why? And is there a way of combating it?
Is it just kind of evolution and biology? What are the forces? Where does culture come in?
How do all the different forces out there impact this? And is there a way to kind of shift it or alter it? And what would that take?
So a bit of a kind of like reexamination of things that have just been assumed or taken for granted. That would be my hope.
[Phil Rickaby]
Now, you are you. This is this show is so new, you’re saying. So it’s like nobody will have seen it before.
No, it’s it’s that new. What are you hoping to? Is there something you’re hoping to discover in performance in this show?
[Caitlin Murphy]
I haven’t performed in a long time. Like, I think I got anxious as I got older. And so, like, I look back when I was younger and just kind of how, like, I don’t know how much chutzpah I had and just getting up there and doing things.
And I feel like that kind of left me a little bit as I got older and as I had kids and had to have a career and all that. And so I’m curious about what it’s like to be back doing that kind of performance, because it’s scary. It’s like you’re by yourself.
You know, it’s really it’s intense and it’s a lot. And I haven’t done it a long time. So there’s something about the kind of I dare you.
Like, can you do this kind of feeling? That’s that’s pretty exciting in terms of the challenge. So I’m just curious about how my nervous system is even going to respond to like what?
What are why are we doing this? Why? This is terrifying.
So, yeah.
[Phil Rickaby]
You mentioned doing stand up. Is stand up something you’ve done more recently than, say, a one woman show? Or is that like a while?
[Caitlin Murphy]
It’s been a while. And I love writing stand up and I probably loves doing it. But the whole kind of like the way it gets done and how you go out for a whole evening and you’re only doing five minutes and like you feel like you have to have a couple of drinks, but you shouldn’t have too many drinks.
Like it’s it’s pretty elaborate to do stand up. So I love writing for it and I love doing it. But the kind of doing of it is in a context that just kind of overwhelms my fragile little heart.
So I haven’t done it a long time.
[Phil Rickaby]
As far as comparing, say, an hour long one woman show or a five minute stand up, which is more frightening?
[Caitlin Murphy]
Definitely the durational one, the longer one. Absolutely. It’s all about time on stage.
So, yeah, I’m also a teacher. So I spend a lot of time speaking to people who are really not interested in listening to me. So I’m trying to shake off the whole kind of like when I speak, people don’t want to hear it.
So 50 minutes of just me, it’s a little bit intimidating in terms of being engaging enough that people will tolerate that. So, yeah, definitely the 50 minutes for sure.
[Phil Rickaby]
I’ve always I’ve always thought of of stand up even five minutes as far more terrifying than performing an hour long solo show.
[Caitlin Murphy]
Well, you have to be funny. I mean, you have to make people laugh, right? And stand up, you know, if it’s working or not.
And so that part is definitely terrifying in terms of like if no one’s laughing, you are sucking. So, yeah, I guess that the one woman show at least has different moods and tones and I don’t have to be funny the whole time it is. I think it is quite funny, but I’m also going for a lot of a lot of depth as well and a lot of other emotions.
So there’s not as much pressure that way.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, that is that is the main difference is that nobody necessarily has like a laugh count that they’re expecting in a in a solo show, but they do in a in a comedy show. The pressure is a little bit higher there. Now, you know, bringing this show to Toronto, like you said, not your home turf, not you do know some people here, but not, you know, it’s not, you know, that familiar.
What do you you know, you come you’re coming here to to do the show. Do you do you do you feel like because the Toronto and Montreal are very different places. So as far as the feeling of it right now, how does how does your expectation shift between the two?
[Caitlin Murphy]
Well, the show is in French. Do you think that’s a problem?
[Phil Rickaby]
No, no, do that.
[Caitlin Murphy]
No, I don’t. I mean, I don’t know Toronto audiences. I go to Toronto a few times a year to see theatre because Toronto has a lot more English theatre than Montreal does.
So I do take several trips a year to Toronto to see stuff. So I know the theatre community a little bit that way, but not at all as a performer and not at all in terms of more indie theatre scenes. So it’s kind of just like throwing myself into a whole new pond, which is exciting.
It’s it’s a whole new scene. And yeah, I’m looking forward to it.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. And how old did you say your kids are?
[Caitlin Murphy]
My kids are 11 and nine. Two boys. They’re both boys.
[Phil Rickaby]
Uh-huh. Now you’re that means that you are coming to Toronto for about two weeks. Boys in tow or.
[Caitlin Murphy]
They’re going to come visit. So, yeah, they’re going to come to Toronto for a couple of days and hopefully help me flyer or something and make themselves useful. And if they won’t see the show, they can’t.
I often talk about them in my spoken word or stand up, so I don’t let them see what I do because it’s kind of mean and I don’t mean all of it to be so mean, but I wouldn’t want them to see it. So they will not see the show, but but I will see them for a couple of days in Toronto. So that would be kind of interesting to blur those worlds.
[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, definitely interesting to to to put the kids to work with the flyering. I think that’s a actually genius piece of work. Train them on your on the pitch.
Get them get them out there flyering line. Yeah. Um, as far as as far as this particular show and bringing it to to a place to the Toronto friend, your audience is going to have an experience.
Both both men and women are going to come and see the show, and I’m sure that their experiences watching it will be different for each. What do you hope that each gets out of the show?
[Caitlin Murphy]
Well, I mean, I definitely have a demographic, a target audience in mind. It’s just definitely, you know, women who women who aren’t feeling seen who are middle age. It’s like come to the show and feel very, very seen.
You will feel very seen by this show. Absolutely. So definitely I’m kind of I’m calling on on them to come see it because I think it will be really kind of soothing, but also kind of like angering at the same time.
It’ll be all the feels. Um, so but that said, it’s like it’s it’s I think it’s accessible still. There’s ideas in it that are definitely going to feel accessible to everybody.
There’s this great quotation that I’ve been using that I read from Jermaine Greer, who said to be unwanted is to be free. And it’s an interesting idea, right? When you’re feeling invisible, you’re feeling that the world doesn’t want you.
Well, you’re also free. So I think everyone can relate to this idea of freedom and desire and being desired and not being desired like that’s not just women. That’s a kind of universal feeling.
So I think there’s a lot of different ideas that don’t just apply to women of a certain age. But I definitely think they’ll likely most appreciate it.
[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely. Well, Caitlin, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for giving me some of your time this evening.
I look forward to seeing this show at the Toronto Fringe.
[Caitlin Murphy]
Awesome. Thanks so much for having me.
