#406 – Ruth Lawrence
This week on Stageworthy, host Phil Rickaby speaks with Newfoundland-based actor, writer, director, producer, and self-described instigator Ruth Lawrence. Ruth reflects on a career deeply rooted in community, mentorship, and creative activism. In this rich and thoughtful conversation, she discusses her early theatre influences, why she returned to Newfoundland after studying in Ontario, her passion for mentorship, and how theatre can be a catalyst for social change.
This episode explores:
- Why Ruth describes herself as an “instigator” and how theatre can inspire change
- The value of mentorship and fostering the next generation of theatre artists
- Her return to Newfoundland and how she built a thriving arts career from scratch
- The vibrant and collaborative theatre scene in St. John’s
- Her extensive experience in both theatre and film, and how the two intersect
- Writing her new play If She Runs, an interactive exploration of women in politics
Guest:
🎭 Ruth Lawrence
Ruth Lawrence is an actor/writer/director/producer of film and theatre, based in St. John’s, NL. As a filmmaker, Ruth’s feature films include Little Orphans (Best Canadian Feature, Whistler Film Festival 2020), Hopeless Romantic (2018), and the award-winning comedy feature, Party Pirate, sold-out its opening Gala overnight at the St. John’s International Women’s Film Festival in October 2023. Her documentaries A Lot of Love in the Room (2021) and Circus by Komatik (2019) have been featured on CBC Gem. Her latest doc is Finding Grace: A Soul Song (2024). She has directed, written, and/or produced on over 70 short films and webisodes.
She co-founded White Rooster Theatre with Sherry White in 2001 and was its Artistic Director until 2023, producing plays written by women and other marginalized genders. The company expanded its mandate to provide opportunities in the areas of design and production, keeping space for racialized creators. For the company, she has produced over 30 shows, directed Happy Anniversary (co-produced with TODOS Productions) Remnants, and created Other Women Walk. Most recently, she co-wrote and performed in Song Seekers: The Story of Elisabeth Greenleaf and Grace Mansfield. For Opera on the Avalon, she directed Three Decembers and the 2023 premiere of February, based on Lisa Moore’s remarkable novel. For Persistence Theatre, she directed an acclaimed production of Berni Stapleton’s Offensive to Some and is writing a new play, If She Runs, to premiere in their 2025-26 season.
Ruth’s honours include the Joan Orenstein Best Actress Award, the RBC Michelle Jackson Award for Emerging Filmmaker, the Newfoundland and Labrador Arts Council’s Artist of the Year, the Queen’s Jubilee Medal, the YWCA Woman of Distinction, a WIFT-AT WAVE Award, the national Leslie Yeo Award for Volunteerism, and the inaugural Ross Leslie Award for her contributions to film and theatre.
Connect with Ruth:
🌐 Website: http://www.ruthlawrence.ca
📸 Instagram: @ruthlesslawless
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Transcript
Transcript is auto generated and may contain minor errors.
Phil Rickaby: The other day I was on Ah, TikTok, as, um, I do probably too often, and a friend of mine shared a video with me. And the video was, um, it was a series of people talking. But all of the people were generated by AI, their personage, the video, their voice was generated by AI. And for a moment, I thought for a moment that this was a video of people, uh, claiming to be AI, but it wasn’t. It was, uh, the people looked realistic, they looked real. And uh, uh, I was really unsettled by it because, you know, as an actor, as a person who creates video online and audio online, uh, myself and my voice are the things that they’re mine. They’re the things that I’m giving to you. And to think that an artificially generated image or voice could replace or attempt to replace me, it’s unsettling.
Now the thing about these videos is that they were. They’re just reciting a script, right? They’re talking head podcast, uh, voices that don’t have a lot of emotion to them. The cadence of their voices was relatively realistic and the way that their faces moved was realistic. But the thing that they’re not doing is emoting. And so that’s the thing that I think that we have as an advantage as performers over AI is that at the moment, uh, AI is not able to do what we do. It cannot emote, it cannot make people feel things. Um, and so it’s used right now is like as a news reading podcast host because it is devoid of emotion and things like that. And so it can inflect and it can uh, sort uh, of pretend to tell a joke, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t have the. That. I don’t know what that people have that real people have. But the thing is that there’s people who are trying to make it do that. And I was thinking about how if it gets to that point and people start making more video and more content using these AI generated, uh, things, then there’s probably gonna be a moment when people, you know, are excited by it and they watch because they’re fascinated by it.
But I really think that while there are companies that really want to make use of this, there are companies that think, oh great, I can get rid of people. I actually think that the people who are watching it, the people who are an audience, they want to connect with real people, they want to connect with performers, they want to know that it’s a real person. There’s something on some level that people as fans want to know that the person that they are listening to is a real person. But there may come a time when video, online or in movies where people doubt what they’re seeing. They may doubt whether this is a real person. In fact, there may be times when people go, uh, when there’s, I don’t know, an entirely AI generated talk show or talk show guest. And that’s a really unsettling thought. But then the thing that occurred to me as I was watching this is while that might happen in some film, it may happen in television, it may happen an online video. But in the one area where it can’t happen is live theatre.
And that presents theatre makers with a real opportunity to be the presenters of real people on stage that an audience can be absolutely certain are real people. When they go to see a show at the theatre, they’re seeing performers in the room with them. And I think that is something that we should be embracing that uh, we should be, uh, Listen, I think that we should be talking about what makes theatre theatre or what makes theatre magical. Uh, as a matter of course. I, um, think that we should be making sure that people know why theatre is different from going to a movie, why theatre is different from, uh, watching something on tv. And I think that we make the assumption that people know what the difference is. Um, and there’s lots of people, I think, who don’t. They haven’t experienced it, they haven’t been in the room when something like that happens. And so I think that there’s an opportunity for us, as much as AI might be something that is frightening, it is something that’s frightening. I do think that there’s an opportunity, like I said, for the theatre to be the one medium where AI can’t do what we do. AI can’t touch us. And I think that’s fascinating. I think that’s something that we should look at and embrace and find ways to talk about.
I’m Phil Rickaby. I am the host and producer of this podcast which is stage worthy. And you’re watching it or listen, listening to it right now. And if you’re watching on YouTube, then if you haven’t already, uh, please make sure that you hit the subscribe button and that you like the video. You can leave a comment too ‘cause. That would be amazing. And if you want to be notified when a new episode, uh, is released, you could just hit the little ah, bell icon and that will set that up for you so that you’ll get an email or a notification in YouTube every time I release a new Video, um, if you are listening uh, to the audio version, whether that’s on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you might be listening to it, make sure that you’re subscribed or following the podcast so that again every time I release an episode you not only get notified, but if you’re listening, if you’ve subscribed on one of those apps, it’ll download right to your app so that you’ll be able to listen to it as soon as it drops. I’ll take a moment uh, just to talk about uh, my Patreon. I have a Patreon that is helping to support this show. Um, the only reason I am able to bring stageworthy back from its year away is because of the patrons that believe enough in this show and in me me uh, to back it, to support it with a monthly uh, subscription on Patreon. If you enjoy this show or if you get something out of it, um, and you would like to also support it, you can do that by going to patreon.com stageworthy there you’ll be able to subscribe. It’s just $7 a month Canadian. And if you join, uh, you’ll be able to not only get episodes uh, early, uh, you’ll also be able to have conversations. We’ll talk about things that are coming up, issues that should be discussed, uh, just. And I’ll be able to add more as more people participate and uh, we’ll be able to bring up more uh, uh maybe I’ll do uh, a live recording just for patrons. Um, there are all kinds of things that I can do. Uh, and so if you want to be a part of that uh, go to patreon.com stageworthy uh and join, become a backer, become a patron of this show. My guest this week is Ruth Lawrence. I spoke to Ruth all within the first year of stage. I talked to Ruth. Ruth is somebody that I went to theatre school with and Ruth is an actor, writer, director, producer of film and theatre based in St. John’s Newfoundland. Uh, Ruth is an instigator as well as all of those other things. She’s uh, an award winning filmmaker, writer, uh, and you know a mentor. And so now here is my conversation with Ruth Lawrence. I wanna start off actually with in the form that I send out asking you about, ask various questions. Um, I asked how you want to be uh, uh, introduced.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: And you said as an instigator, um, tell me about uh, uh, the importance of being an instigator and what that means to you.
Ruth Lawrence: Well, I mean, I guess in some ways, Phil, I feel like we go back a long way. And in fact, I think that you were at George Brown, uh, the year I think you were there, the year that the te. The college teachers went on strike. Were you there that.
Phil Rickaby: Yes, indeed, I was. Ye.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah. And remember, we were in that big protest. We went out. We made the front page of the evening, uh, Toronto Star that day.
Phil Rickaby: I know. I remember. Yeah.
Ruth Lawrence: And so for me, I guess in some ways, I feel like I’ve always, to some extent, been an instigator. Like, I feel that that. That’s one of theatre’s purposes. Like, obviously, to entertain is a big one of them, but the other one is to kind of instigate questions, instigate change, uh, be a reflection of where we are in society and maybe, like, show us the path to where we could be. I just read, uh, an article on, uh, Vacloav Haal the other day, who’s one of my early influences when I first went to theatre school. And of course, he went on to become the, uh, president of Czechoslovakia, which then became the Czech Republic. And he was a playwright and a deep thinker. I can remember early on thinking, why would a playwright this good want to be a politician? And I’ve come to understand it over time, like, because that’s what he was passionate about, was about making life better for people. And I think in some ways that’s where the root of my instigation comes from, is like, how do we improve social conditions? Or how do we shine lights on important issues that seem to be being ignored or not progressing fast enough in some ways? So, yeah, I, uh, like to think of myself as an instigator. And I think most people that know me would say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Phil Rickaby: Now, is that something that you’ve always. You’ve always been an instigator, or is that something you came to sort of like in teenage years or adulthood? Or have you. Does it go deeper than that?
Ruth Lawrence: I think I came to it pretty early on, like, um, don’t. I can’t trace exactly when. But when you said that, I was like, well, certainly by the time I went to theatre school, I felt like I was like, I wouldn’t have been on, uh, there in a protest and on the COVID of a newspaper, which did surprise me at the time. But I was like, okay, this is. This marks, you know, where part of where my career is gonna go. Um, I mean, I can’t. I mean, I think I was, to some extent a Rule follower in school, but partly. Cause I loved school. I love being you. I loved all the things that or those early school days had to teach me and stuff. One of my favorite, um, high, um, school courses was democracy sounds so boring. But I was like, I love that. I think I like, I did very well in that course. And one, one of the reasons was because I just really kind of found it fascinating. And maybe, Phil, it’s partly to do with. There is so much theatrics in theatre. I don’t know, uh, in politics, you know, like, I don’t know if that’s. I don’t think that’s what drew me to it. I really do believe that it’s the potential for social change and, and like I was saying earlier and trying to show another way, like a more, I don’t know, more creative ways of resolving, uh, problems.
Phil Rickaby: I think there is always a danger in politics that there’s a machine surrounding it, that somebody can come in as radical as they want to be, but the machine of parties of government can sort of get in the way of that and a politician can lose their way.
Ruth Lawrence: We see that, uh, a lot.
Phil Rickaby: Yes.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, we really do. And I hold my best admiration and my most admiration for those who don’t like the ones who go in and go, I have something that I wanna accomplish. And honestly, accidental politicians like Nelson Mandela never, I’m sure in his early days dreamed that he’d be leading a country. And so I think in some ways it’s the passion that drives them there. And how thankful are we as know humans sharing the earth at the time of those incredible visionaries that they did step up? Because it’s easy not to. Like, I get asked probably at least once a year, are you gonna run for politics? And I would say no, I don’t. Uh, I’m better on this side and so. And I still feel that way. And I feel like I will feel that way for most of my life at least. I don’t really envision myself in politics, but I see and I understand why, uh, those people who do eventually go, I, uh, think I might be the only person who can do this. Yeah, I can see that. I can see those people and, and when they step up, we’re really lucky that they do. We’re really lucky.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I wasnn, as you were talking, I was sort of tongue in cheek going to ask, uh, a few minutes ago, like, when are you going to go into politics? But I also know that feeling because occasionally people will ask me something similar. It’s like, oh, so when are you to run for public office? And I think, uh, no, because I will get in so much trouble. Um, uh, uh, I would have a difficult time keeping my mouth shut in the parliament floor, you know, so it’s better for me over here where I can cause some trouble.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that’s how I feel right now too. Like, I do lots of advocacy and I’m intensely interested. I was actually in Ontario, uh, for 10 days leading up to the election. Uh, that just happened in this winter. I was doing some writing there and sort of quietly watching that election, which I was really impressed by actually. Uh, and they don’t always impress me, but I was like, okay, there’s s. I didn’t have any stakes in it. So it was easy for me to kind of watch and go, how is this gonna play out? And how are the different sides showcasing themselves and stuff? It was really interesting to watch that and, and especially at that point, like it was so early in that new administration in the states, uh, and there was obviously it was like a kind of a knee jerk reaction that election. But, uh, it was interesting to see how folks distinguished themselves by being statesmen and women. I thought that was really, um, admirable in a time that really pushes us not to be. Like right now we’re pushed to be our worst selves in a way in order to get attention. And when you can rise above that and show your best, you’re, uh, doing something right.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, it’s really difficult because we do live at a time when a, uh, lot of times the loudest voice is the one that gets listened to rather than the voices that are really in the majority. So if somebody can make enough noise, they get the attention and they get what they want rather than the people who are actually outnumbering them.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And uh, you know, we live and work in a forum in theatre where that also is true sometimes. So, you know, I do approach it like I go, okay, there’s. Yeah, I understand this and I understand that you need to sometimes make a show of. Make a show of things in order to get people’s attention. But I, you know, I also do respect, um. Yeah, I respect the clear headedness and intelligence and uh, diplomacy that also comes.
Phil Rickaby: Along with f. All right. Diplomacy is the real trick. Right. Because diplomacy is actually what keeps us from becoming too divided. Right. If we can talk to each other. Um, and uh, that means that both, if there are sides, it means that both sides have to do the listening and also the talking. Which sometimes people are not great at.
Ruth Lawrence: No, exactly. And you know, like theatre is, I always say to people here, like, say theatre is public engagement. We talk a lot about, like, how do you engage the public? Well, that is what theatre is like. You’re in a room with people who’ve chosen to be in the same room with you. They’re clearly concerned or interested in the same things that you’re interested in, uh, you know, in that space. So that is engaging the public right then and there. And uh, you know, you can obviously simply present a show and show it to them and have them go away, make their own conclusions and have their own conversations. But there is also an opportunity to have a real discussion with people and engage them and hear what they have to say as well. Like, and more and more. I mean, I started out when I first came back to new Philanta work. Um, the first shows I was doing was collective theatre that I was writing. I was a part of the writing team and then performing it. But we’ve sort of moved a fair bit away from that, at least in our community now. And it’s more, um, um, playwright driven, which is also wonderful. Cause we have some incredible voices. Um, but I do kind of miss that collective, uh, process sometimes because I think it was a really, certainly for Newfoundland, it was a way that, uh, theatre artists, artists of all kinds, uh, did kind of reach out and engage with the general public on issues that they felt were important and said to them, come to the theatre, we’re gonna talk about this and we’re gonna show you a bunch of sides of an issue and then you’re gonna tell us, either by your laughter or applause or your booze or your after show discussions, what you think of it and get that kind of conversation going. And then hopefully, you know, it spills over into political action or open line calls and people taking that on for themselves, realizing, oh, okay, I’m not the only one thinking this. Cause often we do think, like, am I the only one who feels this way?
Phil Rickaby: Oh, 100%. There’s like so many times when, uh, uh, I can think to myself, am I taking crazy pills? Am I the only person who’s thinking this? Um, and of course, only by engaging outside of myself, uh, will I figure out that, oh no, no, no, there’s lots of people who feel this way.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Phil Rickaby: Uh, I wanna talk to you about, you know, you, we mentioned going into Georget Brown. So you came from St. John’s, Newfoundland, you went to Toronto, Ontario and you went to theatre school. Yeah, and um, you, after theatre school you went back to uh, St. John’s?
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Um, was that always your plan to like come to Toronto, get your theatre educ, your theatre training and then go back to St. John’s?
Ruth Lawrence: It pretty much was. I actually grew up in an even smaller place called St. Jack’s. Uh, which was at the time that I grew up, was 180 people on the south coast of Newfoundland and St. John’s was eight hours away. But I went to Munn Memorial University for a year before I came to Ontario to start any kind of theatre education. And I’ll say yes, it was my plan to come back because the only industry I knew anything about was in Newfoundland and I knew nothing about that. Before I left to go to Ontario, I had seen two shows, two plays before I went to theatre school. So, uh, one of them in St. John’s, one of them in my high school at home. And so I really had very little uh, idea of what theatre was. I just knew it was something that I wanted to do. Um, and I did really plan to come back. Cause I thought, okay, well this is, I’m gonna go away, learn this, come back here. And that really was my plan. And then while at George Brown and by that time I was in, by the time I graduated George Brown, I had been in Ontario for six years because I first went to a technical theatre school in Welland, Ontario, good old Niagara College theatre School which only taught technical theatre. And the reason I went there is it was the only place that didn’t require an audition becausee there was no acting program and I didn’t know what an audition was. So I couldn’t figure out how I was go goingna get into theatre school without knowing what an audition was. Every theatre school required it and I thought, oh, this one doesn’t require that I’ll go there. And I did and I loved it. I learned a lot about how theatre is made from backstage. But they also allowed us as technicians to um, audition. And so I did three, maybe four shows in the two years that I was at Niagara. And it’s really where I got the beginnings of my education. And then from there I did one year at Humber. But my destination, like while I was at Niagara, I was going into Toronto and seeing shows at George Brown and went, this is ultimately where I wa want toa be. And I did get in on my second audition, uh, uh, when Peter Waild looked at me and said, well, we’re going to have to give you a try. You’ve come Back the second time I said, yes, please, I won’t let you down. Uh, so yeah, I did plan, even through like all of that, I did still plan to come back. The one thing that made me wonder whether I should come home was that I got pregnant in second year, which you probably remember too. Um, and it was really at that point that I wasn’t sure if I could come home and make a living as an actor. So that was kind of my worry. I thought, okay, I got a child to feed, am I gonna be able to work year round, which is what I wanted to do in Newfoundland, or do I need to be in a bigger place? And I really took um, a calculated risk. I got work right away in Ontario as an actor. But there was something in me that said, let’s go home for a while and try it. And I did. And once I got here I quickly realized there was a place for me and I was getting hired regularly. And now 34 years, I guess later, I haven’t really had to work outside the arts. So I’ve been very lucky. I’ve never had to take a job that wasn’t arts related. Wasn’t always acting, but mostly acting and I just have not had work at other arts and I feel really fortunate for that.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, uh, you probably made the right choice because I don’t think that would be possible in a place like Toronto.
Ruth Lawrence: I don’t think so either, Phil. And at the time like everyone thought, I mean my best friends who really cared about me thought I was making the wrong choice and I, something in me went, I might be, but I think I gotta give it a shot first. So, you know, I think I would’known pretty quickly if I came home and realized there was no community here for me and. Cause I didn’t know many people, only knew a few half dozen people when I came back after theatre school, um, because most of my time in theatre was spent in Ontario and so I didn’t know really what was ahead of me here. But I’d come home for one summer the year after my first year at George Brown and worked in St. John’s uh, on a lunchtime theatre project at the LSPU hall, ah, Resource center for the Arts. And that gave me enough connection to about 25 or so people that I went, okay, there’s like, there’s a scene here, there’s work here. Uh, I keep hearing about all the amazing things that are being done and so from that I kind of extrapolated, well, maybe now’s a good time.
Phil Rickaby: Uh, you, uh, I’m gonna go a little jump, a little back because you mentioned that you’d only seen like a couple of shows before you decided that you wanted to be in theatre, um, or before you went to theatre school. Y what was the moment that made you decide that you wanted to be in theatre?
Ruth Lawrence: I wish I knew. I mean, in a way I feel like theatre came as a result of the education. Because when I was growing up, uh, there were no theatre. There was a few Christmas concerts and things like that where people would get up and do Aetch skit or a sketch and um, perform songs and stuff. Certainly there was tons of music in my community. And some of the most amazing, you know, even today musicians, uh, have come from the area that I’m from in Newfoundland. So like, there was certainly that, uh, culture. But in terms of being an actor, I wouldn’t tell people that I wanted to be an actor. I used to say I wanted to be an arts administrator. Cause I thought they’re gonna laugh at me if I say I wa want toa be an actor. I’ve never acted in anything in my life. And that I kind of felt like I would be ridiculous. So then I came to MUNN for one year and I tried to get involved in like mu drma. I went to one meeting, never got called or never couldn’t figure out where the meetings were after that one meeting. So I was like, oh, I guess they don’t want me either. Uh, and then I went to see a show at the LSP U Hall. Cause I think I said to somebody, if I was gonna be an actor in St. John’s, where would I go? And they said, oh, you need to go to the ALSP Hall. I don’t know who said that. Someone did. So I went down and I, uh, walked in the door and Marlene Cal, who to this day is my very good friend, she was the administrator there at the time. And I said, can I volunteer here? She said, how soon? I said, well, how soon do you need me? She said, what about this Friday? Do you wanna come be in us sugar? I said, yep. And that was where I saw my first professional full length show. Before that, I’d seen one school touring show, like a, uh, company that had come to the school. But, uh, because I was in high school, like I think I might’ve been in grade 12. We sat right at the back and I couldn’t hardly hear a word. I could see that they were moving around on stage. I didn’t know what was happening. I could barely Follow the story. But I knew I’d seen a play. I knew that. And then I went to see the play at the hall. And honestly, I fell in love with the theatre. That building, that sense of history that’s in there seening as you walk inside. And it was a local play written by, uh, writer named Ray Guy. I think Mary Walsh had directed it actually. And lots of people that I would go on to work with as soon as I came back from theatre school were in that show. So I. You watched it and went, yeah, this feels like a place that I could be. And so I saw one show and then I went, yeah, that’s it. Uh, even though I’ve only sat in the audience, this is what I wanna do. And then. Cause I’m. Up to that point, I’d only like, watched cbc. We only had CBC tv, uh, in St. Jack’s. We didn’t have satellite or cable or anything like that. And our house was in the wrong place to pick up ntv, which was the only other station that people would get, but we only had cbc. But like I grew up with the CBC movies on the weekends. Like they would always have a Saturday after noon matinee and a Sunday night movie. And then I was, I have to say my biggest influence to become an actor was that I had, uh, as our guidance counselor at my school. And I found out much later that he was my third cousin. Mr. Don Lawrence was a cinephile. He had grown up in my area, gone away to Toronto to do his master’s in guidance, come back, and he came back a cinephile. Like he must have watched every movie he could watch in Toronto, came back home and started showing movies every Friday, Saturday and Sunday night in my high school. Have I told you this story before? Okay, so. So from early age, like, uh, I don’t even remember how old I was when I first saw my movie in the school gym, but probably I was in grade three or four and our family used to go. Cause it was what everybody did on Saturday afternoons. They’d take their kids to go see movies at the school gym. And Don had excellent taste. And so we used to go every weekend. Someone would take us, usually my parents. And then when we got a little bit older, the school buses, we were able to go on the school buses. So by grade seven, I was going to at at least one movie every weekend. And then when I got in grade eight. Don’I. Don’t. Maybe I told him secretly, or maybe he just sussed it out, but he knew that I was a movie lover. And he said, when you get old enough, I’m gonna get you working on the door for the movies. Which meant that I was going to be able to go to see three movies a weekend at least. And I said, yep, yep, uh, yep, I’ll do that. I want to do that. And so the m. My school was like a 15 minute drive away from where I lived. So that meant either hithiking or getting rides every one of those nights. And I was lucky to have older brothers who were like three, four years older than me with driver’s license and girlfriends in that community. So I would just find my way each weekend on Friday, Saturday and Sunday night to see movies. And so Friday night would be like, usually a Hollywood blockbuster. I mean, we saw like, seriously, I saw ET at the same time as the ET Played in St. John’s on, um, in the cinema, which was amazing. That’s how good a relationship Don had with the movie distributors. And it’s incredible. And he was showing them on the reel to reel. So, you know, he had the real reel set up in the gym and he’d all these big cases, these big steel cases up because he didn’t drive. So he Dr. Haul them up the hill. The schoolool was on the top of a hill. He’d bring it from the post office up the hill. Three of those a week, and then bring them all down on Monday, send them back, and then he bring the rest. It was incredible. And I saw, like, I saw all the classic movies, uh, and I saw tons of B movies. Like, I saw my share of, um, slasher flicks like the Halloweens, The Friday the 13th, the Texas Chainsaw, uh, all of that too. Like, we had an education in film, like Quentin Tarantino talks about it. And I go, yeah, like, so what Quentin was experiencing in small town USA in a cinema, I was experiencing in my school gym. So that really is where. That’s where I got the acting bug was from seeing incredible performances right in my school gym.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, also, I mean, you mentioned the BE movies because, you know, you could see all of the A list movies that you want, but a lot of times B movies are in education.
Ruth Lawrence: Oh, my God. Absolutely incredible. The very first movie I remember going to sea without my parents was called Damnation Alley. And it was about. It was about the nuclear winter. Basically, uh, a bomb gets dropped and every insect on earth becomes giant sized. And so that was me. And I remember thinking, where did they find all those big bugs? And not realizing, okay, this is scaleing until much Later I was like, oh, now I get it. And I was like, where did they find that massive cockroach? So it was like, yeah. So it was a real education. And you’re right. You can’t only watch the best stuff. We were seeing the best stuff, but we were also seeing some of the, you know, kind of stuff that would become. Of Legends.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I mean, I have a soft spot for a number of movies that could be considered bad or at least are an acquired taste. And, um, I will sometimes if I get the opportunities. Like, you can’t find a lot of them on, like, streaming now. And so it becomes really important to, like, if you find that dvd, you buy that DVD so that you have it.
Ruth Lawrence: Oh, yeah, totally. So true. And I can remember, uh. Like, I always think about this. Cause how much did I miss? But the only movie that I couldn’t. The only movie I could not sit and watch was the Shining. I was terrified before the credits were over, terrified that the score was so effective. I was like, this, uh, is too scary. And I’d seen a lot of blood and a lot of gore up to that point. And that movie terrified me. I think some of it was that I’d heard, you know, about the big blood scene. And I was like, okay, that’s gonna be too much for me. Uh, and so it was years later, it only. It’s only within the last decade that I’ve actually watched the Shining from start to finish. Cause I really had a big block. I was like, um, it’s too scary. It’s too scary.
Phil Rickaby: It took me to this year to see that movie.
Ruth Lawrence: See.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Ruth Lawrence: The marketing was too good. The marketing was too.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, the thing is also that movie, it’s unsettling before anything even happens. Right. There’s. Jack Nicholson’s performance is unsettling before anything goes wrong. Just him driving in the mountain. Something about that is unsettling. So right from the jump, you’re like, something’s wrong.
Ruth Lawrence: I know. Like, who knew that a. Ah. Shot watching a car go into the woods. Like, you’re saying, who knew that could be that terrifying?
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Ruth Lawrence: You know, Kubrick was brilliant. Clearly.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Ruth Lawrence: He knew.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Actually, inna talk for a second about something that is really important to you, which is mentorship. And one of the reasons why that’s sort of like, I know that you want to talk about it, but also, every time I speak to somebody from Newfoundland, specifically in the St. John’s sc, at some point, whether on the recording or off the recording, they Will mention your name as somebody who has, uh, pointed their way or helped them in some way. Um, and, uh, you have, in all of your various ways, been a mentor to so many different, uh, performers, um, and theatre makers. Um, and so inna talk to you about the importance of mentorship.
Ruth Lawrence: I think that’s very generous. Certainly I’ll say that if someone comes to me and they’re. And like, if I see the spark of, like, passion and love and dedication, and then they follow through, you know, like that. Cause there has to be follow through. You know, you can’t just have passion and you can’t just have talent. Like, it’s a lot of hard work and you’re not gonna get there without it, unfortunately. Like, uh, you know, I feel like, uh, as we say here, I’ll always give you the time of day, you know, because I know, like, I came from a place where, uh, I didn’t feel like I had that, but not because people weren’t offering it, because there wasn’t anyone that I could identify at a young age. Know, I certainly found my mentors when I made the decision to come into this industry, and they were incredibly generous to me. So I feel like I’m only giving back what I have been granted. And it was actually when I started making a conscious effort to become a mentor was Inna, um, back in 2011, I won a artists, uh, of the year award and, uh, the reporter from my hometown newspaper. So I used to be a paper girl years and years ago. That was my first job. And that newspaper said, you. Can we interview you? And I said, yeah, sure. And I remember being, like, sitting on my bed doing that interview over the phone. And he said, okay, well, now that you’ve won this award, like, what do you plan to do? Like, what are you giving back? And I went, oh, uh, that’s a good question. And I said, well, I think, like, what I’m gonna try to do now more is like, mentor people who are looking for it. And that’s when I know that that’s when I made a conscious effort to do more of it. I, uh, may have been doing some unconsciously before that, but that was when I went, oh, yeah, okay. Like, if I had this place of privilege that I really felt like I did have once I was an established artist here and I was working a lot. Uh, I felt, you know, that I did have to give something back and that I did. O. But like I said, I also felt like, I also know I can recognize pretty quickly is someone serious about this or do they think there’s a shortcut? And there’s no shortcuts. There’s, um, only long, hard cuts. You know, it’s not easy to make a living. It’it takes, you know, it takes a lot. It takes a thick skin, as you know, to stay with it. And even that’s hard. So I think that’s part of why I mentor. And I’m truthful, I think with people, and I say, like, this’not gonna come quickly. And mostly I say to people, you’re gonna work if you’re willing to make your own work. Like, that’s how you gotta at least get started, is willing, be willing to jump in and go, I got something to say. Even if you don’t know what it is that you got to say, if you’ve got something to say, then that’snna go a long way.
Phil Rickaby: When I was talking. I was talking to Cole Haley a couple of weeks ago, and I asked him. I was asking about the theatre scene in St. John’s, and he made a point of saying that mentorship was a big part of the St. John’s theatre scene. And a lot of that is because of the way that St. John’s is kind of isolated from other parts of Canada, that everybody sort of, like, steps up to mentor and to help. Um, which I think is. Obviously, it comes from that isolation, but also it says a lot about St. John’s because it’s not something that happens everywhere. There’s a lot of places where people sort of hold they have their knowledge, their thing, and they sort of, like, hold ono it like a precious thing that’s theirs and theirs alone. Um, and if you want to get anything from them, you really have to pry it out of them. Whereas it seems as though it’s a lot more plentiful and abundant in a place like St. John’s.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, and I think that’s true. I think it is true. And, uh, you’re probably right in that the isolation has played a big part of that, because we didn’for a long time, we didn’t have a theatre school. We didn’t have theatre courses in our universities. And so the people who really wanted to do it were instigators, you know, and they were getting out there and creating work and taking it all across the provinces to all kinds of tiny little places in order to make a living doing it. And I gotta tell you this little anecdote, um, about coal. So I didn’t know coal at all. And two years ago or last year, I got Asked to be an adjudicator for, uh, the Arts and Letters Awards, which is a blind, uh, competition, uh, open to anybody, uh, and professionals and amateurs both, uh, would submit to this competition. And I got asked to do, uh, the dramatic script. So that would be like filming and theatre. And I started reading and realized, so it’s supposed to be blind. I’m not supposed to know any of the writers. I realized as soon as I started reading, I knew six of the 16 plays because I’d read them. Of course, in the community, they were in development. The rule is that it can’t be a show that’s been produced. But of course I’m involved in a lot of development initiatives here. So I’d read six. And so I right away got in touch with, um, um, the government agency that, you know, I had to report to. And I said, I, uh. Very conflicted. I know six of these, so I know who wrote them. Six out of 16. And I feel that I should withdraw or we should bring someone else in. And they said, oh, well, we can bring someone else in if you want. I said, okay, great. Here’s what we’ll do. Uh, I’ll, um, take. Bring that person in. They can read half the scripts and then if there’s anything that they’ve read. Because I knew I was going to get to read everything. And so we did that. And we ch. Two of us chose the exact two same winners. And I was like, okay. And then. But I remembered, like, I knew who one of them was. I could tell. And the other one, I said, bernie, I have no idea who this writer is. And I don’t know why. I don’t know who this writer is. Like, how’s it possible? And she said, me neither. I don’t know who it is. And same thing. She’s a dramatur. Very involved in the writing community. And I said, uh, okay, don’t. I can’t figure it out. And I didn’t want to guess, but I said, okay. Like, obviously it rose to the top for both of us. And it was at the, um, announcement of the winners that I met Cole and went up to him and said, I’m totally blown away. What a beautiful script that was. I can’t believe I didn’t know you before. And that’s where we met was after he’d just been awarded an award and gotten some money for it. And that’s a big surprise here.
Phil Rickaby: Ah.
Ruth Lawrence: Cause I was like. I felt like I knew every. I felt like I probably knew everybody’s every who script I read, but I didn’t know that one. I. I did not know. So that was interesting. And he’s a fine, fine writer and an incredible, uh, artist. So I’m so glad. One of his shows is being, um, produce next month in May.
Phil Rickaby: Nice. Yeahah. I think we were talking about that.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah. Um.
Phil Rickaby: You, uh, mentioned, um, that, uh, one of the marks of the scene in St. John’s is, uh, uh, creating your own work and making your own work. And that that was one of the things that was necessary, um, years ago when you went back. Because there wasn’t a theatre and that sort of thing. And that’s sort of something that’s become an important part of the Canadian theatre landscape. You come out of theatre school or whatever training you’ve done, and you make your own work. Yeah, but when you and I were at theatre school, that was not in the cards. That was not something that was ever discussed. And in fact, it was almost something we were dissuaded from doing.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Um, you were gonna be an actor who goes to auditions. And that’s basically it. Nobody ever talked about writing or creating your own work.
Ruth Lawrence: No.
Phil Rickaby: Is that something that. Did you start out of necessity, uh, of St. John? Was that just something you had to do?
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, I knew that I would have to. Cause like, even though I wasn’t involved in the community, I was seeing, you know, like the newspapers. And, uh, we had a thing called the Newf Flland Herald, which was basically a TV Guide. And, uh, again, all the people that I now work with all the time, um, were being featured in that. In their early days of their career. And I could see that that’s what they were doing. I could see that the Benny Malone, the Mary Walshes, the Donna Butts, um, um, everybody, you know, that I went on to work with Andy Jones, Greg Malone, all of them were creating their own work. And that was how they were making a living. And so I knew right away, I was like, well, that’s clearly how it’s done. And I should mention Chris Brooks too. Cause he was leading a company at that point. And so. So I just knew that that’s what the cards would be if I came home. And I felt a lot of pressure, Phil, because the messages, you’re right, always were you gotta be an auditioning actor. Getting out there all the time. And I’m in the back, my heades think, well, if I go home, that’s not how I’m gonna be working. I’m gonna have to, like, I might get an audition for something, but I’m gonna have to be, like, making that work and finding people to make the work with. Not just making it myself, but, like, actually finding that group who I was gonna create with. And some of them I did find in Ontario at other theatre schools. So, like, when I was at George Brown, I had a friend who was at, uh, Ryerson. I had friends who were at Sherid. I had, like, friends who were in all the different theatre schools. And one of my friends that I graduated the same year as she moved back home, the Newfoundland, we made one of our first really small shows together. When we came back, we got cast together in a collective, uh, a big collective with a big cast. That first year after I came back, like, so I sort of found some of my community, Ontario, and then we transferred down here and started working. So it was an interesting kind of. Yeah, it was an interesting, um, sort of transfer of skills from Toronto back to St. John’s.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah. And not many people were going to theatre school at that time either. Most people thought I was kind of nuts, that I was going away and spending money to learn how to be an actor when you could just stay home here and do it, which is true. But I had never had that high school experience of being on stage. I didn’t have, you know, any kind of training, formal or informal whatsoever, not even taking a class. So for me, I was like. I didn’t feel that I could be confident in a room if I didn’t go away and know something. And, oh, my God. I mean, what I learned is extraordinary. Those six years in Ontario. Like, I got such a wealth of knowledge backstage first at Niagara, then even the one year that I did at Humber. I still talk about the stuff that I learned at Humber, even though it wasn’t the place that I wanted to land fully. I got a lot out of being there that one year and then going to George Brown for the next three years. I mean, you know, that was. That to me, I really felt like that theatre, uh, program was handcrafted for me. And I know it wasn’t, but it was perfect for me.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, I mean, you often, uh, theatre programs are. Are what they are. Right. You come into it and either it’s right for you or it’s not.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Um, and a lot of. And sometimes, um, people don’t gel with the program. And sometimes people do.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah. And Peter Wald used to say, you come in here a good actor, and if you put in the work and this all works for you, then you’ll leave a fine Actor. And, uh, I used to think, oh, yeah, like. Cause they’re bringing in good people to start with, you know, and you’re right. It has to be the right fit. And it definitely wasn’t. Like, I know people who started and left for various reasons, and I totally understood why they did. It just happened to be the right fit for me.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Um, now you. In addition to creating theatre, you’ve also, um, made, I would say, plenty of films. You’ve been involved in some filmmaking.
Ruth Lawrence: Um.
Phil Rickaby: Is that. Was that, for you, a natural extension of just being a working arts person in St. John’s? Or was that something that you sought out as something new?
Ruth Lawrence: Well, I mean, I was raised on movies, and it never went away. So when I came back, um, and, like, I didn’t, uh. I don’t even think. I mean, I went to a lot of movies in Toronto, but I didn’t go to any film festivals. And when I came home here to St. John’s, uh, that first year that I was home, I went to what was then, like, the second, I think, iteration of the St. John’s International Women’s Film Festival. And I remember sitting. I talked about this to that festival and to anyone involved in it. Like, I remember sitting in that audience by myself in the dark and going, okay, I can make movies. These women are doing it. I can do that. Because, uh, it wasn’t that I didn’t get the message that I couldn’t do it, but there weren’t a lot of. There wasn’t a lot of signs that there were women making movies. Like, pretty much everything I saw, everything I just referred to was made, you know, by a guy, uh, amazing movies. But I did kind of, I think, uh, that ingrained in me a feeling of, but you can’t do that. You can be in those movies if you get a role. But I didn’t really feel like I was gonna be that it was necessarily open to me. And. And I knew I had stories I wanted to tell. And it kind of, you know, bit by bit, um, going to that festival made me go, this is something I’m gonna do. But then I didn’t have an education in it. And in the same way that I felt like I had to go to theatre school to get an education, to learn how to be confident on that stage, I really felt like I needed to build my skills to be a filmmaker. So I just took every single, sometimes ridiculous course. Like, I remember taking a, um, music scoring, music composition workshop, like, 15 years ago when I didn’t even know really what was involved in composing for a film. I, uh, was listening to it all and I was going, this sounds amazing. I have no idea how I as a filmmaker have that conversation. Well, did I ever learn? So that course, while everything was over my head, within four or five years, I was going, oh, that’s what Rick Bates was talking about. Now I know he s said to develop a language, to talk to the composer. Now I know why I need to do that. Cause if not, I don’t get what I want from my films.
Phil Rickaby: Right.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, you know, it was stuff like that. And I was sometimes taking courses that were wildly inappropriate for me, but I was trying to soak it all in and eventually it all kind of started to set itself in place.
Phil Rickaby: Yeahah. When you’re creating something new. Like for me, when I’m writing something, I almost always go, this is a play. It’s like, without even really, uh, having to think about it, I don’t think, oh, this one’s a novel. Although it’s happened once or twice. Mostly I think this is a play. And that’s because that’s where my mind, my heart is, is in the theatre. Um, when you’re creating something, do you know when the idea comes to you, this is a film, this is a play? Or like, how does that process work for you?
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, pretty much, I think. I mean, I’m trying to think of an example of something that was something else first. And then like, I’m actually, uh. Well, uh, first I’ll say yes. I, uh, think pretty much I do see things in different ways. Like I’m writing a play now. That is a play. It is meant to be on a stage with live people watching. Because I want that live interaction to be happening. I want people to be thinking at the same time as the actors are performing, you know, like, and responding. And then there’s times that I go, okay, yeah, no, this is a movie, uh, because I’m seeing it and hearing it differently. Um, there is one thing that I’m writing now, and I’ve been trying to write it for years. And it’s a very personal movie. Everything I’ve made since my short films, uh, has been written by someone else. I have not yet written a movie that I’ve directed. I’m trying to write one now, but I’ve been trying to write it for more than 10 years. And interestingly, as I’m writing, uh, the script for the movie, I recently just took m an advanced fiction course with Lisa Moore, one of our best, uh, and best known writers from here. And I suddenly fell into writing some of that film script as ah, short stories. And I went, oh my God, maybe it’s still not a movie. Maybe it’s a booklk and that’s why it’s so long coming. And I still have not figured. I don’t had that answer yet. I don’t know if it will ever be a movie. I know, I know it can be a book because I wrote four short stories in that course all about that particular incident that I’m trying to write a movie about. Uh, so I know it can be a book, but I. Will it ever be a movie? I don’t know. I feel like it’snna be one of those things that they’ll say, yes, she died trying to make that movie. She never did it. She spent her entire life trying to make that movie. But nope, didn’t see the light of day. That’s what I feel like will happen.
Phil Rickaby: Well, maybe it could be a book and then it can be book.
Ruth Lawrence: Maybe, maybe that might be the only way it’s ever gonna get out.
Phil Rickaby: Ah, you know, you were mentioning about how, um, you were seeing all of these movies made by men and it was almost like you felt kind of like it was as a filmmaker, there wasn’t a place for you as a woman. And I can’t help but think that like in the early days of silent film.
Ruth Lawrence: Mhm.
Phil Rickaby: All the directors were women. Yeah, all the directors were women until they started making money and then a bunch of men came along and took it from the women directors.
Ruth Lawrence: It’s so true. And we didn’t hear that story till just recently really. You know, like some people knew it, um, but that’s true. As soon as like, oh, wait, that’s worth something, then we go, oh, then it shifts. But not unlike many things.
Phil Rickaby: That’s very true. That’s very true. Um, one of the things that I am sort of trying to explore and something I’m trying to learn, um, you know, there’s a lot of places that I haven’t been and I don’t know the theatre scene in that place. Um, and as much as it would be great to be able to do like a cross country, like I’m going toa experience theatre in every place. Kind of think that is a very expensive project.
Ruth Lawrence: It is.
Phil Rickaby: I’m um, curious if you can in some way give me an idea of your. The way that you see the theatre scene in St. John’s.
Ruth Lawrence: Hmm. Oh my God, that’s a hard question. Well, I Know that, uh, like. Right. So when I first came home, there was three professional companies. One on the west coast, one based in the LSPU hall, and then another independent one, Rising Tide theatre. Um, I went on to do a lot of my professional work with Rising Tide and some of my work, a lot of my work at the hall and some of it with our caa. The landscape of theatre since, you know, in the last 30 years has blown open. There’s way more companies, way more creators. And I think, I mean, some of the most exciting theatre I see is here sometimes, not all the time. We are isolated, so we don’t get to see a lot of the advances in theatre here in, in the nation, will ll say, uh, because we’re so far from it so often, especially on a technical level, uh, like the kinds of things that are possible technically, sometimes it takes a while for that to get here, so to speak. Right. And so. But the writing, for me, the writing here has always been really of, uh, excellent quality. The questions people have been asking have always been incisive and engaging. Really interesting questions that we’ve put out as play, so to speak. And, um, so that’s always been really exciting to me. And even if a piece is rough or maybe not fully formed, I know at the heart of it that if it got to the stage, it has something intrinsically of value. So I think for me, that’s what’s kept me going here. Because obviously if, uh, I didn’t want to be the only person making work here. Like, the only way I was gonna grow is if other people were making excellent work. And the only way that I was gon toa get to raise the bar for myself was by seeing other amazing artists do great work. Like, let’s face it, if the bar is low, you don’t have a lot to aspire to. If that bar is really high, well, then you gotta be competitive in a loving way. Uh, you go into it and go, I love that. I wantna do something as good as that. Can I do better? Can I push myself? Can I really, like, get to that level? So I think that’s why you see amazing stuff coming out of here. Like, there’s, you know, we’ve had many, um, Governor General nomination nominations in the dramatic, uh, script, um, category. And I mean, when it comes to our novelists, absolutely incredible. So all of our arts here, I mean, that goes across the board. Music, dance, filmmaking, like, we have some of the comedy, My God, you know, like, name five comedians in Canada, and three of them are gonna be Newfoundlanders.
Phil Rickaby: Absolutely.
Ruth Lawrence: So I think that that tells you, like, not only are we from this small pool, but we compete with each other. And I like to think. And I think the only way to really get better is toe complete, lovingly, as my friend Sherry White put it to me one time, you know, like. And I think that’s what’s happened over many years. It wasn’t always cordial, you know, and people weren’t always, uh, you know, like, buddy, buddy. But they also had a respect for each other, I believe. And certainly as they got older, they developed tremendous respect for each other. So I see that. And that’s really what a lot of my role models, that’s what they’ve shown me.
Phil Rickaby: So, yeah, respect is the most important thing because without it, if you can, uh, disagree with somebody and you still have respect with them, then you could build on something. Yeah, right. And so it’s so important to keep fostering respect and to have respect to other people and have them respect you as well. So you can have these conversations, these difficult conversations.
Ruth Lawrence: We circled right back to where we started this conversation.
Phil Rickaby: Exactly.
Ruth Lawrence: Exactl yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Um, so just as we’re sort of coming to the end of our time, um, I wanted to ask you, uh, what you’re working on these days right now.
Ruth Lawrence: So, a few things. I just produced a movie with Sherri White. She wrote and directed a movie called Blueberry Grunt, and I produce that with her. That’ll be out this fall. We just finished it, so we’re hoping it’ll hit festival. So who knows? I might be in Toronto, I hope, uh, sometime over the next year with that one. And currently I’m writing. The play that I’m writing is called if she Runs. And it was a commission from Persistence theatre here, a feminist theatre. And they asked me to write a play about women in politics. That was pretty much all that was like the capsule. And I said, okay. And so I went away and I realized m. I’ve kind of been dabbling in that question for a while. Like, you know, um, what keeps us out of or draws us into politics? And, you know, it’we’re. Still pretty far behind as women and women female identifying, um, in the political sphere. We’re nowher’re near gender equity. We talk about it all the time and how important it is, but we’re last. The closest we’ve ever come, I think, is 30% or something of our parliament never had an elected female prime minister. However, we have had it. Kim Campbell was representing. She was our prime minister for A while. Um, and I also think, well, and look what happened to her. You know, like, it was very. Lots of very unfortunate circumstances around that. Uh, same thing has happened in many cases, not all, but in many cases with our provincial politicians here and across Canada. Um, but we are making lots of progress. So my question that I wanted to kind of delve into is, like, what gets us interested in politics? What keeps us in or drives us away from it? What are some of the things. And are we as an electorate? Because, remember, I’ve decided not to be, uh, to put myself up for political office. What is my responsibility and everybody else as an electorate, what is our responsibility, ah, to supporting, uh, the candidates that we want to see represent us. Like, how do we play a part in that? And we most definitely do, especially whether they run in the first place and whether they win and whether they stay in it. So that’s.
Phil Rickaby: Is something you’re finding yourself. That particular thing. Is that something you’re finding yourself drawn to explore in this play, the electorate, uh, and the relationship between the electorate and the one that would be elected?
Ruth Lawrence: Definitely. In fact, it’s a bit of an odd beast because I’m writing it as an interactive piece, and while we’re seeing the show of the candidates who are deciding and how they decide and what affects their decisions, the audience is always voting along the way. And I want that voting to tell us something about how we judge the standards we hold people to, the kinds of preconceptions we have. Uh, you know, our, uh, predeterminations and our likes and dislikes. Like, how does that all play out when. When we’re voting and even before that, even before we vote and. And in particular, certainly for the end of the play, once they’re in office. Like, how do we treat. How do we treat our candidates and our members of various legislatures? And why would they stay in it, uh, based on some of the experiences that they have. And so I’ve done a lot of research across the country, um, with politicians who have been elected, who’ve run. I think everyone I’ve talked to has successfully run and been elected. Um, but I’ve also talked to, like, Equal Voice, which is a group that is nonpartisan, who are helping women train, so to speak, to get ready to go to an election and trying to prepare them for what. The kinds of things that I’m portraying, what they’re gonna encounter out there on the election campaign trail. So it’s. And honestly, uh, I’ve been a bit mortified by the research, the kinds of things that we expect, the kinds of things we put people through. Mhm. It doesn’t make. It doesn’t make us look very good. I’m not very proud of the kinds of things that I’m hearing.
Phil Rickaby: No. Um, I think like that kind of stuff, things that people say is the reason why the politician Charlie Angus in federal politics is leaving politics. Because I mean, he had a video that he released where he played messages that he gets and that he’s been getting these kinds of messages for the last 10 years or more. Y. Um. And like, why would somebody subject themselves to the.
Ruth Lawrence: And ironically or coincidentally, when we talked about politics earlier, you know, I was talking about people who do put themselves out there, put aside a career that they are loving and are successful in and do this. Charlie Yankis is one of them. He didn’t need to be a politician, didn’t. He was having a very successful career, but decided, uh, I have, uh, I have to do something, I have to get involved. And so he’s one of many that I go, yeah, like they could have chosen something else. And what did Charlie do? Gave most of his really is working life, public office, you know. So. Yeah. And that’s pretty saddening, uh, turning that mirror back on us. We don’t look very good in that mirror. Fil.
Phil Rickaby: No, we don’t. And I often, I think about the things that the politicians that we’ve lost because of that and the ones that we’re losing and people like Charlie Angus who are passionate and stand up for things, um, and would be m. Like if could. If we could keep them, it would be amazing. And yet it’s almost like we would be asking too much to ask somebody like Charlie to keep it in politics more.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah, so true. So true. And yeah, so it’s interesting that you bring him up because he’s one of the people that was like flitting through my mind as I was talking about it. Yeah, yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Uh, absolutely.
Ruth Lawrence: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Well, Ruth, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate this conversation and been. It’s been wonderful catching up.
