#404 – Cole Hayley

In this episode of Stageworthy, host Phil Rickaby speaks with Cole Hayley, a theatre artist known for his innovative work and dedication to the Canadian theatre scene. Cole shares insights into his creative journey, the challenges and triumphs of working in theatre, and his latest projects.
This episode explores:

• Cole’s path into theatre and his artistic influences.
• The challenges of creating and sustaining theatre work in Canada.
• Insights into his latest projects and what excites him most.
• Thoughts on collaboration and artistic growth.
• Advice for emerging theatre artists.

Guest:
🎭 Cole Hayley

Cole Hayley is a playwright and poet from Elliston, Newfoundland and Labrador. He is a graduate of the National Theatre School of Canada and an alumnus of Memorial University of Newfoundland, where he received a BA in English and Communications. He was the recipient of the 2023 Playwrights Guild of Canada RBC Emerging Playwright Award, and a two-time winner of the Arts and Letters award. He was a member of the inaugural Poverty Cove playwrights’ unit, the IATI Theatre Cimientos Unit, and has attended both Playwrights’ Workshop Montreal’s Gros Morne Residency, as well as the BANFF Playwrights Lab.

Connect with Cole:

Website: https://www.colehayley.com/

Support Stageworthy
If you love the show, consider supporting on Patreon: patreon.com/stageworthy

Subscribe & Follow:
🎧 Listen on Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Your favourite podcast app
📺 Watch on YouTube – Like, subscribe & hit the notification bell!

Transcript

Transcript is auto generated and may contain minor errors.

Phil Rickaby
Hello and welcome to Stageworthy, I’m Phil Rickaby would be the host and producer of this podcast. Before we jump into the show, a little bit of housekeeping. As you may know, as you may or may not know, this is a one person operation. I’m the host, I’m the producer. I edit every episode. I create all the images for this show.

Phil Rickaby
I do all of the work around the show. I seek out the guests and I, I do like I do all of the things around the show. What that means is that that I’m spending a lot of personal time, and I’m spending a lot of energy and putting this show together, and I’m spending money to keep it going for the website, for a podcast hosting, for, editing software, all of that stuff.

Phil Rickaby
That’s all coming out of pocket. And I don’t run ads. So to, to help me keep this show going, I created a Patreon in fact, that Patreon and the backers who joined that Patreon, my patrons, are the reason I’m doing this show again in the first place. Those backers felt strongly enough about this show that they’re willing to put money behind it, to help me get it off its feet.

Phil Rickaby
And they are, not just my backers. They’re getting previews, starting to discuss ideas for some important issue topics that I want to discuss. And there’s a couple that I’m milling around with and I haven’t told them yet as I record this, but I’m going to and the next couple of days because I really want their help to try to drill down on this issue, so we can figure out how best to approach it.

Phil Rickaby
And if you would like to be a part of that, you can join the Patreon and be a backer for just $7 Canadian a month. And with that, you can back the show and you can help me keep it going and be part of the decision making process for where this show goes in the future. The more people who join the Patreon, the more I’ll be able to do in the future.

Phil Rickaby
With the podcast. So if you were, if you’d like to join, go to Patreon.com slash stage worthy and, it’ll take you from there. And you can, you can get signed up if you are watching on YouTube, please make sure to like and subscribe to the to this channel. Make sure that you leave a comment if you enjoyed the show and hit the little bell icon so that you can get notified when a new episode drops.

Phil Rickaby
If you’re listening to the audio only version, make sure that you are, subscribing to or following. If you’re on Apple Podcasts, go to Spotify and look up stage worthy. Go to Apple Podcasts. Look up stage where the hit the little follow button, and again, every time a new episode drops, it will come. You’ll get notified. It will come directly to your device.

Phil Rickaby
Do that so you never miss an episode of stage worthy. So now onto the show. It is always exciting to me, when I get to talk to somebody that’s new for me. I’ve been in the industry for, a number of years. I’ve done a lot of podcast episodes. There’s a lot of people who’ve been on the show that I have, a connection with.

Phil Rickaby
I’ve. I’ve worked with them. I’ve heard of them. We’ve had a conversation. We’ve known each other in passing. But it’s always exciting to me when I get to talk to somebody who is completely new for me. And so this week, I get to do that again. My guest this week is Cole. Haley Cole is a playwright and poet from Newfoundland and Labrador.

Phil Rickaby
He’s graduate of the playwriting program, the National Theatre School of Canada. Award winning playwright. His play plays for the end of the world has been touring since 2023, and he’s currently working on

Phil Rickaby
a play called There’s Nothing You Can Do, and I’m looking forward to learning about that. Now, here’s my interview with Cole Haley.

Phil Rickaby
off, thank you for for finding the time to speak to me today.

Phil Rickaby
I wanted to ask you about this, the play that you’re working on or, there’s nothing you can do.

Phil Rickaby
Please. What is that about?

Cole Hayley
Yeah. So I, I started writing this play when I was in my last year. I went to the National Theatre School. So for my last year, you do this big, grad play for this festival called New Words. And it’s basically like the last hurrah of the school. Everybody saw that there’s two playwriting students. So two playwriting students write two plays.

Cole Hayley
All the acting students come in to act, and then the directing students direct production students produce, you know, blah, blah, blah. It’s a big, all hands type of deal when it comes to putting up this final show. So I was writing it for my last, my last year at school. It was 2021, I think, when I was starting to write it.

Cole Hayley
And that was the year that was my second year at NTS, and it was mostly where we are, where we are playwriting students. Our work was kind of deemed like we could move online. So it was during Covid years, very strange time to be in theatre school during Covid years. And we all we all went online. A lot of the writing, I think at that time I was kind of like desperately reaching out to, you know, these characters who kind of became my friends when I was writing it because it was so isolating.

Cole Hayley
Anyway, stretching my brain, trying to figure out what play I’m going to write for my grad play. And I saw this dance piece online that, Jonathan Glazer did, and, it was called Strasburg, and it was basically a bunch of different, dancers that he got who recorded themselves in their own rooms across, the pandemic era.

Cole Hayley
And it was like this really interesting movement piece that was completely online. Nobody was connecting with each other. And this was the first time I heard about the Dancing Plague, which is what this was about, which happened in Strasbourg in France in 1518. So it was like this, there’s a few instances in history of this thing happening, but in Strasburg it was the most famous.

Cole Hayley
And, this one woman, as the story goes, started to dance for no reason. At least nobody knows what her reason was. And then throughout the next few weeks, other people, her neighbours, her friends, people who came and saw what’s happening, they also started to dance. And, you know, people dance through. They broke their ankles and they kept dancing.

Cole Hayley
People danced so long that they collapsed and died. And, you know, it’s kind of all been lost to history as to the potential reason why. There’s been a few theories like ergo, but some other ones, there’s some overheated blood was a very popular one. But the consent, the, the theory that I kind of have, landed on myself, and I think that probably the more popular theory now is this was a region of, France that was very decimated by the Black Plague.

Cole Hayley
It was very poor. It was a very religious era area. And, you know, there was this common myth about this, saint that, punished sinners by making them dance. So the common theory is that this was a mass hypnosis and a psychological break of, people who were, you know, very tormented, and they thought they were bad people.

Cole Hayley
And that’s why they’re tormented in this common myth happen of being forced to dance until you die. So, you know, clearly the parallels with COVID and the pandemic era and being a theatrex school, all this stuff felt like. So really, kind of like copacetic. And I felt like the, the right story. So I started to, to work on that.

Cole Hayley
I didn’t want to write a period piece. I knew I wanted to bring it to the modern day. I was also, at that point in my time going through a quarter like crisis. And I felt a lot of, you know, it wasn’t the Black Plague, but, you know, the pandemic was kind of like I felt very robbed of some formative years.

Cole Hayley
And, I think all those anxieties and frustrations came out into, into this piece. So that’s a long winded answer to say. It’s a retelling of the 1518 dance plague, but set in modern day Saint Johns.

Cole Hayley
Yeah. I mean, it was very challenging. And it happened that, 20, 20, March. I think that’s when in Montreal it got really serious, which was around the time when I was wrapping up my first year. So it didn’t really affect me in my first year. It kind of like gave me two weeks off earlier than what I expected, which honestly, at that point in time, the first year was kind of a gantlet.

Cole Hayley
So I was like, okay, that’s that’s okay. Like, and at that point, don’t think anybody was expecting it to, you know, turn into what it was. But I felt really bad for, my friends in two years ahead of me, who had their whole shows moved to an online form this big, like the New Year’s project. I was just talking about that for two of the playwriting students who were in their last year, that that was their big play, and it got moved online to Zoom Theatre.

Cole Hayley
And, you know, I think looking back, I think, again, it’s really great that we all tried to make zoom theatre work, but, you know, it’s not it’s not what theatre is. And, you know, it’s kind of a coping mechanism. So I felt really terrible for them. I missed my entire second year, pretty much. I we came we came back in the spring, we did a puppetry workshop which was deemed, you know, kind of hard work with puppets in, in virtual zoom space.

Cole Hayley
So we came back in and did our puppetry workshop in person. And then for my third year, I was able to we were able to be entirely in-person and, yeah, but, you know, it was up to that, my last for this New Year’s project when we first did. There’s nothing you can do. There was the it was a week before we went on stage that we were still in masks, like, the actors still had to wear masks, and it was not able to be physical touching.

Cole Hayley
And then thankfully, everybody kind of tested, nobody was tested positive for Covid. Everybody’s vaccinated. And then we were, you know, given the go ahead that we can be on masks and we can have characters touching, because, again, that was something that the, when I was in second year, two people graduated that year. They got to have their plays on stage, but it was masks.

Cole Hayley
There was no touching. So, you know, I it was it was a terrible situation. I’m happy that I managed to, you know, have that first year experience without Covid. And my, my final year was mostly Covid free, but it was dampening and I felt really bad for people graduating and first coming into the school during that time.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. It’s like I can’t even imagine, trying to. To take an acting class.

Cole Hayley
Oh my God.

Phil Rickaby
and yet. And yet, you know, people did it, and, I hope that I really hope that that people were able to get something out of those classes. Which may not be what they thought they were getting.

Phil Rickaby
I remember, I mean, it must be so difficult to do those shows and to be able to touch, not to be able to be unmasked. I still remember, like, the first person that was not my girlfriend that I hugged to hello during that because I hadn’t like, aside from my girlfriend, it was like just like no touching distance.

Phil Rickaby
I remember the first person that I hugged and it was it was surprisingly emotional.

Cole Hayley
Yeah. I, you know, same. I remember when we first were allowed to have, expand the bubble, and I can’t remember what it was. I think I just had friends come over to watch a movie, and they were in my bubble then, and I was in New Zealand for, this part of time and, again. Yeah, it was just like it felt.

Cole Hayley
So, I don’t know how they struck again. It was very emotional. We just watched a movie, had a couple of beers, but it was like. It felt so, you know, you don’t know how good it is until you can’t do it. And, and there was a period of time to where I was traveling when I was traveling, because I did most my second year in Newfoundland, where I didn’t have to be in person in Montreal.

Cole Hayley
And, as I’m sure people who might be listening know, we were in Quebec. I mean, Quebec was really difficult during Covid, especially in 2021. There was, really, you know, big curfew that, was pretty, intense. And, you know, I had a lot of friends who were living there, and I was there for some period of time because I had to be for school.

Cole Hayley
And it was a very tense place to be during Covid. But I would fly in, do workshop if I need to come back to Newfoundland. And every time I did that, it was, 14 day quarantine. So I spent maybe I think it was 36 days or something like that where the shakes out to be whatever, whatever six weeks is, I spent that in, quarantine by myself in my sister’s basement.

Cole Hayley
So it was. And that was it. I found that very difficult.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Did you have to, like, time? Your going to to come back so that you had 14 days before the thing. And then do the thing, and then come back and do 14 days when you got back.

Cole Hayley
So there was no quarantining. Actually, when you go to Quebec, where? Newfoundland’s an island. I guess they could control it a lot better. It was only when you came into Newcastle when I came back to New Zealand. So I did that a couple times where I had to go to Quebec for something, for a few weeks, and I would come back, you know, blah, blah, blah, and it was, it that was I found that very challenging.

Cole Hayley
Just, you know, you don’t realize how hard it is to be by yourself that long.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some people have it easier. Introverts. I’m an introvert. I could probably do 14 days.

Phil Rickaby
I’ve done close. But you know, there comes a point where even where everybody goes, all right. Nope. I have to be around people. And so.

Cole Hayley
You know, it wasn’t even. It wasn’t so much not being around people. It was. You couldn’t go outside. You could not you you weren’t allowed. I think the guidelines were at the time. Again, it’s so funny to look back on, on Covid because it was. So nobody knew what this thing was. We’re all guessing, and, you wouldn’t be able.

Cole Hayley
But you weren’t allowed to drive your car. You weren’t allowed to go for a drive. You know, like, now that we know Covid isn’t it is past airborne, but, you know, there’s no danger in driving your car for for anything like that. It was a kind of more being stuck in one little, one little space, for that.

Cole Hayley
And I was like, this is this is nuts.

Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. It’s. It’s wild. The things that. Because, you know, we look back and we think that was. That was kind of dumb. But also, we didn’t know, right? We didn’t know. We had no idea. And so drastic measures had to be taken. And, and so, you know, we all we all got through it. I think that we’re all changed and we still haven’t recognized and really reckoned with the effects and the trauma of, of that era.

Phil Rickaby
But we’re doing we’re doing our best.

Cole Hayley
I have, I have another show, that I don’t need to talk about, but, it’s, more about, it’s a spiritual successor to the show. It’s called. And they all melt into the carpet. And a lot of that is about, how covet for a lot of people was the first time. And maybe since they were out of high school and had a summer break, that they had a prolonged period of inactivity and prolonged time to sit down.

Cole Hayley
And I know a lot of people who broke up long term relationships in that time, a lot of people who had crazy career changes. And it was just like this, this forced, break that I think a lot of the way our culture is, and especially in North America, where we don’t let ourselves have those breaks. I think a lot of times because of Covid, you put a lot more time to think and a lot more time to consider and make some very, you know, crazy life choices that a lot of times were for the better.

Cole Hayley
And, and others about that. And also, I think there’s, nostalgia. I know some people who are very nostalgic for the first month or two of Covid. I mean, you know.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, the fact that, you know, the air got cleaner. It was so quiet. It was. There’s kind of a, That’s kind of a nice thing that, like, you can. Like when you could. When we were allowed to go for a walk so you could go out, and there was hardly anybody out. But, you know, you might see a couple of people, but it was very it was the quiet,

Cole Hayley
Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
I also think that that, that in the theatre world there was a lot there was a reckoning with our hustle culture, because I think there’s a lot of there’s a lot of people in the theatre who are go, go, go.

Phil Rickaby
They work however many jobs, day jobs they need to to keep things going. And then they’re also going to this event, that event like always like this reading all of that stuff. And it was an enforced like, you can’t do that stuff anymore. Now, what’s it like to sit with yourself and your thoughts and, and all of that stuff for a bit?

Cole Hayley
Yeah. I think it was a big existential crisis because of that. And also just like it. Really? Like I said earlier, we really tried to make the zoom set work, but it reaffirmed, you know, what theatre is essentially, which is like, existentially, which is the people in a room together in physical space, but also really showed how flimsy and delicate theatre is, because, okay, once you’re not allowed to do that, if it’s a, if it’s a virus or if it’s, governmental regime or if it’s, financial reasons that theatres fail.

Cole Hayley
I mean, it really is defined by people in, physical space. And I think for me, being a student during that time, I was very uncertain about the world I was coming into. And again, like thinking back on it now and, and knowing it wasn’t, it was terrible and but theatre kind of managed to bounce back. I don’t I think I would be almost more I’m trying to I picture myself being in theatre school now in 2025, and I think it’s even more, existentially, dreadful as to where theatre is going for for numerous reasons.

Phil Rickaby
I’d be curious, too. I mean, if you if you if you’re comfortable to talk about those.

Cole Hayley
Yeah, yeah. No, totally. I think I, I think, you know, we have an election coming up. I think there is a very real I very much worry about funding streams for, especially, you know, playwriting. It’s no secret that you get most of your money through grants and, you know, through the front end, more so than the back end so far.

Cole Hayley
Sudden, can account for for the arts isn’t no longer a thing or it’s severely cut. Then that’s, a big, big strike to, I don’t know, people can barely. I know, I know credibly successful playwrights that I’m shocked have to have a second job. It’s so, you know, and and it’s, so, you know, if something like that, if the remaining funding changes to kind of Council for the Arts or any governmental bodies, like if they if the governments suddenly have to stop spending money on the arts, then that’s also it’s a very delicate thing right now.

Cole Hayley
And I also think like, while I don’t believe I can create a great play, I think AI is being used and can create a play that convinces enough people that it’s, written by humans. So I think existentially right now, between a potential lack of funding for the arts, depending on how this election shakes out and the, advancements of, like, elms and, and AI models, I mean, I think it’s, I think it’s more threatening now than it was in 2021 when I was in theatre school and being like, I don’t know if we’re ever going to be in a physical theatre again.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah. No, I get that, I get that, and, you know, elections are always difficult. Especially when you have, some people running on cutting and cutting. But somebody starts talking about cutting the CBC or defunding the CBC. You know, that there’s like, they’re talking about like, the arts in

Cole Hayley
Oh, yeah. Totally.

Phil Rickaby
And, and and, you know, that happened before under Stephen Harper.

Phil Rickaby
Stephen Harper politicized the arts funding organizations. And so, it that’s a that’s a that’s a real danger. On the I front, I, I know exactly what you’re saying. I also, I have this this feeling that, that right now people are using AI, they’re using these large language models are using stuff. They’re they’re creating like, they’re insulting, Studio Ghibli because they’re like, my stuff looks better than yours and all of this sort of stuff, but it’s all hollow, right?

Phil Rickaby
It all rings sort of hollow. And I think that in the end, we as humans like knowing that something was created by a person. So, like, sure, somebody can recreate, something by Studio Ghibli and say that it looks better, but the work that was done originally

Cole Hayley
Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
is so much more interesting. It’s so much better because it was created by a person, a play written by a person.

Phil Rickaby
We want to connect with people, not machines. And so I think ultimately that the AI is, is like really big right now. But it will be a it will go a it’ll go like the, the way of NFTs, I think. And I really think that, because I know that that like AI has plateaued. Right. In order to get to the next level, it would need, I think it’s three more full internets.

Phil Rickaby
It would have to invest to, to go to the next level. And so it’s sort of like at the point where it’s at, there’s just a bunch of companies throwing a lot of money and it at it and throwing it down our throats. It’s why they need Reddit. That’s why they need to like this. But there’s not enough data to get to the next level.

Phil Rickaby
So I think that I do think that it’s going to we’re in for a little bit of a it’s it’s everywhere. But I think it’s going to go away eventually.

Cole Hayley
I think, yeah, I that’s what I have to tell myself. And, you know, I have, I have friends. I’m doing, I’m attempting to write a movie. But because I have a lot of friends who, work in the film industry, and, I think when it comes to the film industry, it’s it seems almost more existential, than, than theatre, because it’s just, there’s so many A’s can be used for so many different things when it comes to film.

Cole Hayley
I think theatre weirdly, is, besides the actual writing aspect, theatre is uniquely immune to the fingers of AI because, again, it’s defined by real people in real space, in real buildings. And that I can’t touch that, where it comes to selfishly, my job, it’s, you know, I worry there a little bit, but but again, I, I have to, you know, I have to believe that the thing is, the thing that I think is who what AI is touted at by people is it’s a great equalizer when it comes to creativity.

Cole Hayley
Like, everybody can be creative now because you can make a prompt. And I think the thing that is sad about that is if, I agree with the sentiment, sentiment that everybody can be creative. And I think a lot of the people you see who are really out in the forefront trying to go to bat for AI as being a creative tool, it’s like, okay, if you just took that energy and to really trying to hone your own creativity, then then what a better world that would be.

Cole Hayley
Because I do believe creativity is, for I do believe the arts are for everybody and, I do believe everybody has something to say. And if they find the mode and the way through, they can say it. And I think when it comes to AI, you have a lot of people who always maybe want to be artists who perhaps don’t want to or don’t know where to start or something like that.

Cole Hayley
And you see AI as a as a way in. And I think that’s actually maybe more limiting to people than anything. But, you know, I, I don’t know, I don’t know, and I’m not for I know that I can there’s also a lot of benefits to AI, especially when it comes to, medicine and, and other.

Cole Hayley
There’s other things that can be done. But I just think, you know, you’re you’re leaving it up to a bunch of companies who are all in an arms race, with the I think open AI, like ChatGPT is the most funded project in human history.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. And yet. And yet. And yet. They that it costs like they they they lose so much money in a day. And the Chinese did it cheaper

Cole Hayley
Yeah. Deep sea.

Phil Rickaby
so, you know, the thing about the thing about the people who want to do AI art is I think they want to be artists without the effort.

Cole Hayley
Is.

Phil Rickaby
Right. And art. Art takes effort. Like I reminded for years, you know, it would be on like writers forums and things like that or on Reddit or whatever. And every so often somebody comes along and says, I have a great idea and all you need. I just need somebody to write it and we’ll split the money because it’s going to be a killer idea.

Phil Rickaby
And what they don’t understand is that ideas are the easy part and the writing is hard, but they have it the other way around that, like that. Ideas are hard and writing is easy, which is which? It’s not.

Cole Hayley
know, I find that drafts for is always the hardest. That’s that’s been my,

Phil Rickaby
every revision is its own form of torture, right? Every time I’m doing it myself with a with a draft that I’m working on of a play and I’m, I’m going through taking notes and all that sort of thing. And it’s because it’s not the fun part.

Cole Hayley
No.

Phil Rickaby
part is that initial like creative, like I’m writing kind of thing.

Phil Rickaby
And that’s what’s great. And exciting. And the the revision is the very analytical, careful crafting and molding, which it takes time and and and and lots of time and lots of thought and lots of effort

Cole Hayley
Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
kind of thankless.

Cole Hayley
It’s, it’s super thankless and painful. I mean, the workshop process is such a, necessity, but it’s, you know, it’s a grueling, grueling few days.

Phil Rickaby
But I also think that that it’s one that we we should we need to invest more time in as far as, like, the Canadian theatre. I think that, we need more workshops of a play. Because we have a tendency to go by rote. It. I revised it a bunch of times. Now we’re going to do a workshop, and now now it’s done.

Phil Rickaby
And I think it needs more.

Cole Hayley
I think, for. There’s nothing you can do. I earlier today, I was writing. This is the final. I think this is a draft ten. This is the final draft. Hopefully. I’m. Send it to playwrights, press. Maybe I’ll get published on everyone else, but, this is it for it. But, the amount of workshops, I think I’m at five because it was, 5 or 6.

Cole Hayley
It went through a bunch of workshops, went up to, Resource Center for the Arts in St. John’s. I’ll speak alcohol that they’re the ones who are on the show off. And I think we’re on workshop number three with them. We did three with them. So, yeah, six around six workshops went into just one play that spanned four years of my life.

Cole Hayley
And even now I’m still like, I have to put this away, or I could retool this forever.

Phil Rickaby
is, you can’t keep working on something forever. It is possible. I’m reminded of, the play Kim’s Convenience. And Choi, I saw that, when it was at the Toronto Fringe many years ago, the first time that anybody had seen it, and. But it had been through many, many workshops, and it’s one of the reasons it was as good as it was was because they had iterated, put it in front of an audience and iterate it and put it in front of an audience until it became this, like tight near perfect thing.

Cole Hayley
Yeah, yeah. And it’s, You know, and that’s the only way to perfection. Like, I don’t know, maybe, maybe Beckett was a one and done type of guy, but,

Phil Rickaby
There are very few people who are able to be one and done type people. I want to go back a little bit in time because, you know, we’ve talked about your experience at the National Theatre School. But I’m curious about how you got into playwriting in the first place.

Cole Hayley
Yeah, I went to, I was I was a writer, ever since I was a kid. Yeah. And honestly, I was always, I didn’t realize what I was doing at the time, but when I was a kid, I used to write little dialogs on the back of a flier that my mom got from a convenience store, and it’d be like, 5 or 6 pages in the flier, and the strip would be 5 or 6 pages.

Cole Hayley
I wrote one, the one I remember writing, the first one I remember writing, I think it was about the Grinch. I must have been like eight and 8 or 9. So I always did write Theatre or Die or scripts. I didn’t know what I was doing at the time. When I was in high school, I didn’t really do that, do much of that.

Cole Hayley
I wrote mostly poetry, lyrics, stuff like that. And, I did a bit of drama in the, in the as an actor in, high school. So I got introduced to that world, primarily as an actor. I went to university in St. John’s at Memorial University, and, I was doing a biology degree, and I kind of got, three years into it and I got sick of it.

Cole Hayley
Really realized that I don’t want to do biology. So my, my minor was English, so I switched to English as a major, and I started doing I did a double major in communications and through, trying to do my double major with, the funnest courses possible, I fell into this, program at Memorial University that used to be called the, Diploma in Performance and Media.

Cole Hayley
I think it’s, diploma for stage history now or something. And anyway, it’s, joint English communications, program. And you basically you do six courses, television documentary, producing the play, acting, directing, blah, blah, blah. And through that, I kind of like, got back into, the theatre world. In the film world, I start writing more screenplays.

Cole Hayley
And, then I started writing more scripts for theatre, and I’m through that program. I met Daniel Irving, who is, director at, and the artistic director of perchance theatre in St. John’s was a Shakespearean theatre company. And I met, also Robert Chafe, who, is a writer, playwright, wrote, like 17 plays or whatever. And through them both, I kind of like, I wrote my first real play in that program that, for Danielle.

Cole Hayley
And then after I left that program, I did a drag course with Robert, where I wrote another play, and both Danielle and Robert encouraged me to kind of keep going with it and to apply to, the National theatre School. And, I kind of did it on a whim. My, I think I put in my application at 1159 or 1158 on the night of, and I had to call my mom to borrow $70 to for an application fee because I had no money and it was all, you know, so I kind of like a crapshoot.

Cole Hayley
We’ll just see what happens. And I was very surprised that I got an interview. And then I was even more shocked that, that I got in. And then ever since, it’s kind of been full steam ahead. So it was not something I. It’s weird. I always did it, but it was never something that I kind of thought I would do.

Phil Rickaby
had you always, wanted to be okay? Some people, though, go away to theatre school, and they stay in the city where they studied. Like, I went to Georgetown Theatre School. We had people who came from all over the country at that time. It was a long time ago, a different program. But, people came from all over, and a lot of people stayed in, in Toronto after that.

Phil Rickaby
For you, was it important to go home to St. John’s?

Cole Hayley
Yeah. It was, It was important. But I didn’t do it right away. I did. Three years in Montreal, and Montreal will forever be my second city. Like the dream, the only amount of money I ever want to make my life is to be able to afford a house in Newfoundland and a apartment in Montreal. And I would love the ability to be able to move between them when I want.

Cole Hayley
But, which just seems like it would be a lot of money, but that’s my goal. I love both little cities. You know, I didn’t grow up in St. John’s. I grew up around the Bay, as my parents are in, Elliston, which is near Bonavista, for people who know Newfoundland and, I, you know, I always wanted to go back to to Newfoundland.

Cole Hayley
It’s where all my family is. A lot of my friends are, and so far, thus far in my career, I’ve been blessed. I’ve been able to work away for so many periods of the year. Like, if I had to go to a. We went to Vancouver last year for a bit doing a play there or Montreal for a play.

Cole Hayley
But yeah, after I left school, I went to Toronto for a year and a half. Had a great time, have a lot of friends in Toronto. Didn’t really do any theatre there. Sure. One day I’ll go back to Toronto and take another crack at it. But, yeah, it was it was important to make my way back to the East Coast, back to me, to my own.

Phil Rickaby
Now I. I haven’t. So Newfoundland is is the last province on my bucket list of. I’ve been to every province. None of the territories. But it is in every province except for Newfoundland. It’s sort of on my list. And I understand that St. John’s has a very, vibrant theatre scene, which I’m excited to get to know. Can you tell me a little bit about the scene in St. John’s?

Phil Rickaby
As you understand it?

Cole Hayley
Yeah. It’s, you know, St. John’s is, it’s it’s great because it’s, it’s big enough. That’s why I love it. And it’s why I tell people I love it. It’s a big enough city that there are a lot of things happening. There’s like, things to do all the time if you want to, a lot of people, but it’s it’s insular and it’s geographically distant from other places that when it comes to the art scene, everybody’s kind of in the same boat that like it.

Cole Hayley
There is no touring musicians rarely come to St. John’s. There are rarely plays that are done by, you know, big companies on the mainland are touring to St. John’s. You know, it’s is usually you have to support your community, your arts community, whether that’s music, theatre, film or whatever, because nobody else is coming. So what it makes is it makes us very, beautifully, symbiotic arts, seeing that everybody kind of, like, feeds in and out of and, and so incredibly supportive, community, I think, there’s the theatre scene specifically.

Cole Hayley
It’s, really welcoming to newcomers. There are festivals like the, short play festival, Saint John shorts, which is very that’s where I got most after I perform at nights. And, when I was just kind of like putting little plays together, I was I did a bunch of them at the Saint John Short Play Festival.

Cole Hayley
There are a lot of veterans of the scene, like Robert Chafe, like Andy Jones, like, you know, Meg Coles. There’s a lot of people who, who helped me out when I was coming up. There’s a lot of people who are willing to kind of, like, go out for a coffee with you if you want to hear about what to do or go for a walk.

Cole Hayley
Like, I had this beautiful walk with Jill Kiley, in October and where I talked a lot about, you know, trying to figure out if I want to stay in Newfoundland or go to the, go to the mainland, try it again. And, you know, Jill was talking about how, you know, beautifully support of the community is and all this stuff.

Cole Hayley
I pretty much, but I just said to you, so I think it’s a great place for the arts. I think it’s, great place for the sea, for the theatre. There’s always there’s always a play happening. And, you know, there’s always a show and, and it’s also just a, you know, weather wise, it’s a bit iffy, but besides that, it’s, it’s just a cool, cool, cool place.

Cole Hayley
I recommend going.

Phil Rickaby
mean, one of the things that we. Wherever you are in Canada, the weather is iffy in some way or another. And that’s one of the things that that makes, And it’s different everywhere in the country. So it’s always iffy, from it sounds like there’s a really great, spirit of mentorship in, in St. John’s. As for in the arts scene, tell me about, people who’ve mentored you in the scene there and and are you sort of mentoring others?

Cole Hayley
Yeah. I’m, Yeah. So when I was first, trying to think that when I was first coming up, people. Yeah, some people I mentioned, like Danielle Irvine, Jamie Skidmore, those were the first two that I really kind of, like, got. Jamie. Jamie was a teacher, I think still teaches at the university. He’s head of the communications program.

Cole Hayley
He directed, a couple of my shows at St. John’s Play Festival. He kind of like, Yeah. Taught me a lot when it comes to that, and also taught me a lot about, like, the. I was a stage manager. The first time I ever did any backstage work was for Jamie. So he kind of taught me a lot through that.

Cole Hayley
Robert. Chief, who has been my long term dramaturge. Now he’s dramaturge. There’s nothing you can do. Is dramaturge a couple other plays of mine. Robert is a very generous person. I think Robert has a, I hazard, I guess, view, interviewed many people my age or younger. They would say they have, or even an order.

Cole Hayley
They would say Robert’s been a big part of their career. He’s very, kind and, gracious with his time. I’ve done, work with Megan Gale. Calls, through her company, Poverty Cold Theatre, which, you know, great mentorship, incredible writers. Somebody who I looked up to, Andy Jones is, has, sent me very kind emails after seeing shows.

Cole Hayley
Everybody, I’m I’m blanking on people because, there’s just so many, that are around. Jill Kiley, another one who recently came back to the to the province after being the ad for the, knack for so many years. So there’s a lot of people there willing to help. I’m at this, you know, I’ve been using the term emerging for, for much of my, career.

Cole Hayley
And then, a year ago, I realized I should stop using the word emerging. So, so I don’t know if it’s emerged as the word, but I don’t know what it is. So I recently I’ve only thought that I could, even have a conversation with somebody, and that’s any form of mentorship, but, but I’ve started to, you know, I’m trying to get into dramaturgy a bit more.

Cole Hayley
I’m. I’m teaching a show coming up for the first time that I’ve never really done dramaturgy, but, you know, hoping to get there and, and I’ll say, like, if anybody is listening to this from New Zealand or even from not, not from New Zealand, but mutual friends of mine, and you’re wanting to get into writing. I am available, and I very much remember the conversations I had with people who were more established than me when I was getting to it, and it was incredibly beneficial.

Phil Rickaby
I find emerging an interesting word. And I. I have a suspicion that it works best as, as sort of a category for, grants and festivals and things like that. Because to me, it it’s a little bit like the word aspiring. I’m an aspiring playwright or. No, I’m a playwright. I’m writing right now. Granted, it took me a long, like, a long time to confidently call myself a playwright, but I think those words, like aspiring emerging are words that that if we use them ourselves, we sort of like keeping ourselves small.

Phil Rickaby
And we, we need to we need to to spread our wings of fly. This is where we’re we’re in a time when we need our industry to just be, like, big and unapologetic.

Cole Hayley
Yeah. I totally agree. I was having this conversation with my roommate, who’s, Allison. Kelly. I don’t know if any people know Allison, but Allison is an actor. Director. She just graduated from a national theatre school and a directing program. But she’s been around in the scene for a long time, and she was telling me about how took her a long time, and she’s an incredible actor.

Cole Hayley
Worked for many years an actor before she would. She described herself as one, and that’s, there’s so many people that I know who who have the same way. I think that’s the biggest. I think that’s the biggest first hurdle. I think, you know, even more so than going to theatre school or anything like that. It’s coming to the realization that you kind of, don’t be ashamed to call it or, you know, or and I think there’s also like, you know, to come to terms with that yourself and like thinking that you’ve done the necessary work and laid down the, the, the, the foundation to be able to say that, I think

Cole Hayley
that’s a big part of a journey.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. I remember years ago. I used to, like, refer to myself. I would go in my day job. People say, what do you do? I would go for my day job first, and then I might mention being a playwright or a theatre creator. And a friend of mine was like, why do we do that? You, you, your job is a thing you do.

Phil Rickaby
And the writer is really more of the thing that you love. So why would you not lead with that? And it changed. It changed my perspective entirely.

Cole Hayley
yeah, I, I can’t remember when I started. It was I’ve only been the past couple of years for sure for, for me that I started to calling myself as, And stopped when I stopped using emerging and started to for chest, you know, say, I’m a writer or playwright.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. What is, now, as you’re sort of you sort of finishing off the. There’s nothing you can do. And, you know, when we’ve been through and through that whole process of revisions and stuff, sometimes it’s hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. But I don’t know about you, but I always have, a bunch of things that I’m excited to get working on after I’m done a project.

Phil Rickaby
Do you have anything that that you’re sort of excited to start, work on?

Cole Hayley
Yeah. I got a couple shows. Again, I think, like, when I always have. There’s always these things in the going around in the background. It’s never like I’m working on one show. I have, I’ve been torn to show with my company, scaredy Cat theatre, which is a company that I have with, Chelsea dad Pilkey and Anna Muriel, who I met at, NTS as well.

Cole Hayley
Chelsea’s directing. There’s nothing you could do. We’ve been touring a show called plays for the end of the world. We did it at Wildside. We’ve done that revolver. We did it. Undercurrents. We’ve done it. We’ve been road testing these plays. It started off as a collection of three. Then it kind of went into a collection of four.

Cole Hayley
Collection of seven. And then I thought, well, I just need four more plays. And this is a full length play, and it’s another full length play in my repertoire. And I love touring the show with these people. So I got a grant and I, just recently finished the, the workshop process for that play. Finished new draft of that play.

Cole Hayley
So I’m very excited to see that show. As a show I’m very proud of. And I’m hoping to find a home for it. I mentioned it earlier, but there’s a spiritual successor to this show called and the I melted to the carpet, which is early talks potentially happening hopefully in the next year or so, hopefully in Montreal.

Cole Hayley
But that’s something that I’m, you know, going to work towards. And I’ve just submitted a grant application for another play. I’m hoping to start to write, which is actually very exciting because all of these plays I’ve been talking about, our shows that have been in the, you know, have occupied the air around me for a while, and I haven’t had a new thing with brand new characters in, in quite a bit.

Cole Hayley
So this is a new, completely new project. Has not broken ground on it at all yet. And, I, I’m looking forward to work on that, even without a grant, because I just, can’t jonesing for the next project at this point.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah. I’m curious about, I mean, as we sit in this time, where there’s this moment of of of Canadian, pride and interest in supporting Canadian things. I think that that the Canadian theatre finds itself in a unique position, for you, what do you see as the Canadian theatre’s greatest strength? And what do you think is its Achilles heel?

Cole Hayley
Very interesting question. I think I think that, Canadian theatre’s greatest strength. I think there’s a bubbling and maybe this is a new thing, but I think there’s a, there is a spunky kind of like, swell that I’ve been seeing and that’s, only intensifying now because of, Trump and what’s happening in states to make something that’s holistic.

Cole Hayley
Lee. Not American. And I think, I think our greatest strength is that we are a there’s been a lot of Canadian theatre that’s been done, but a lot of our theatre’s always been kind of compared to or trying to compare itself to the American theatre, a theatrical landscape. And I think in the past, I think this was already happening.

Cole Hayley
The past decade or more. There’s been a very much a new style coming, coming. And I think, because of everything that’s happening, I think it’s going to I’m very excited for the future Canadian theatre, because I think, you know, that there is a it’s almost undefined yet as to what it could potentially be. And in ten years from now, maybe this will be the turning point where we see that, like, okay, all these people kind of we all stop trying to make a play for New York, and we start to make a play for Canada.

Cole Hayley
And I think that’s, I think there’s a lot of potential for that. I also think there’s a lot of, like, incredible writers. I think there’s, I think these the sparseness of the country and the fact that the plays that when we brought our show to revolver, in Vancouver, the theatre that was being made in Vancouver is so is so very much different than the shows that were especially happening in Montreal because which is completely that’s another great strength of ours, is that we have a bilingual theatre, theatre, industry.

Cole Hayley
And I think that people should really if you’re in Quebec, really see what was happening in French theatre because it it’s holistically different than anything that’s happening anywhere else in the country. And it’s very, very, I find it very visceral and very, engaging and beautiful. French theatre. I think that’s I think that’s one of our biggest strengths as well.

Cole Hayley
But I think things are happening across the country are uniquely different. And I think that that’s a, that’s a, that’s a great that’s a great aspect of, of what makes Canadian theatre so interesting is that you can go anywhere and it’s a different it almost has like a microcosm of something that’s happening. Whereas, and truthfully, I have not seen many shows in America, besides, in New York.

Cole Hayley
But I don’t know if that’s that. That’s if that’s really happening there. I don’t maybe I’m wrong. Achilles heel, I think, is that we much like our music industry, much like our entertainment industry. We are in the shadow of the beast. But again, that could be changing. You know, I think there is a pool to kind of be more independent in many ways in Canada.

Cole Hayley
And, and, and I hope that with the, you know, all this passion to support Canada, to support local, that that translates to theatre. I know that there was a very, controversial, letter that was, Prairie theatre Exchange, that happened a couple months ago, that was kind of, saying, why are we supporting? Well, you know, in order for a theatre company to be successful, just stop supporting new Canadian plays and instead support plays that are either going to strive to be, like, come from away or something like that, which is like striving for that New York audience, that American audience, or supporting American productions to come.

Cole Hayley
And that’s the way to make money. And I hope that, you know, because of this and because of this push to support local, that we kind of realize that there is a lot of value to still be had in the Canadian in what is a Canadian play. And that’s a question that nobody can answer. I don’t think many people can answer what is a Canadian play?

Cole Hayley
Because it’s still still being formed.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. I actually think that that, you know, the that we are many of our theatres are addicted to plays from elsewhere. We have a bunch of theatre. We have some theatre companies that are, like, doing new Canadian work and a bunch that are so addicted to, work that comes from, the US, for example, that like, I kind of lose interest in, in what they’re doing because I want to see them do something excitingly Canadian and not just iterate another play from the U.S. now.

Phil Rickaby
Great. I’m glad that they’re doing the like. I wouldn’t mind the occasional play from the U.S., but when the whole season is just like all players from the U.S., and maybe they’re sprinkling in a play from the UK. That’s kind of boring to me.

Cole Hayley
I agree. And and you know, something that I think is also to go back to Newfoundland theatre that I can’t ever remember. I don’t remember any time, I’ve seen American production in Newfoundland. It’s hugely Newfoundland productions and, maybe a night swimming. Just had a show there. But, you know, it’s very much Canadian shows up.

Phil Rickaby
Which is I think is is kind of a gift, like, we have a number of theatres here. Some of them are our are, you know, the mid-level theatres. Then you have Mirvish Productions doing it’s like big budget musicals, which are all either all from the US except for Come From away, which is the the lone Canadian play which I think might be closing soon.

Phil Rickaby
And so you have you have all of this. I think it’s a gift to have like homegrown stuff as the, the main option. I think they’re the that it gives people an opportunity to, to see themselves reflected

Phil Rickaby
that just watching another American play doesn’t.

Cole Hayley
Yeah. I, I 100% agree. I think, there’s a lot, there’s a lot yet to be defined of what is the Canadian theatre landscape. And I think I’m very excited to, you know, contribute to it and to also kind of see what other people are going to do with it. It’s I, I don’t have any impulse in me to, you know, move away from making the type of theatre that I want to make, which is, I think, distinctly Newfoundland, distinctly Canadian.

Phil Rickaby
yeah, yeah. I think that there’s there, you know, we have that, that Canadian, self effacing, you know, it’s just Canadian. It’s kind of. How good could that be? And yet, how many of our of our of our, how many Canadians have are brilliant. Yes. Some of have gone to the states and proved themselves there.

Phil Rickaby
We have so much brilliance here. In, in our, in itself and in our own work.

Cole Hayley
There’s a there’s a self-hatred. I think that comes or, inferior inferiority complex that comes with a lot of Canadian art. That I think was already on was already something that people at least, you know, the conversations I’ve had with people, I think people were not, you know, actively trying to quell that and snuff that out. But I think because of everything happening south of the border, I think, I’m hoping that that’s really an inspiring thing for people and to kind of like, get over this in fear because I felt it too, like, you know, there’s, people don’t want to make Canadian film.

Cole Hayley
They want to make American film, you know, all this stuff. But, it’s time to I think it’s time for us all to get over that. And be okay with making stuff that, that that is Canadian.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, it comes down to what I mean. Again, you alluded to it earlier. What is Canadian? What is the what are the Canadian arts? If you look at the plays that were being produced at, you know, in the late 60s, early 70s, at the theatrical explosion in Canada when all these theatres popped up and were being funded, the plays that were being produced then are extremely different from what we’re making now.

Phil Rickaby
And, and we’re, we’re still defining what that is. Nobody is going to be able to say what Canadian theatre is really probably, like you say, for another ten years or so, and then maybe we’ll have a sense of it.

Cole Hayley
Yeah. And then, you know, there’s also the. What about the subsections of, what’s happening, like, Newfoundland theatres. A lot of people don’t say New Flag theatre happened to the 70s. And, I mean, you have the Mummers troupe. You had Al Pippin. You had a lot of those early pioneers and the new Flag theatre. But that’s only 50 a bit over 50 years old.

Cole Hayley
And that’s a still defining. And, you know, what is Quebec theatre’s very different. What is, theatre in Manitoba? I mean, there’s a lot of, there’s so many things to be defined, and, that once you take it away from just the definition, just being not American, there’s a lot of beautiful discoveries to be made in, in, in the greater Canadian.

Cole Hayley
What is greater Canadian theatre? But what is Newfoundland theatre? What is, Nova Scotia theatre? You know, like.

Phil Rickaby
Absolutely, absolutely. And it’s kind of exciting to think about. Right? It’s kind of exciting to to think that, like, you could go to St. John’s and see a play, and it will be completely different from if you go to Vancouver and see a play or if you go to Edmonton and all those other places are completely different and, and I think that that that kind of diversity in theatre, just in terms of like themes and styles and, and what, what what people are seeing on, on plays, on stages is, is so exciting.

Phil Rickaby
And man, I think that would be quite the road trip to be able to do some time.

Cole Hayley
Oh, I gotta be awesome. I was that very, I’ve been, again, blessed to have been able to travel and do theatre, in different provinces. And every time I go, it’s always very interesting to see how how, you know, different, you can tell that these plays were born out of this area. You can tell that, it’s just, yeah, it’s great.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, yeah.

Phil Rickaby
So,

Phil Rickaby
is there anything that that that you’re looking forward to in the immediate future that, that, that you’re excited to talk about just to be sort of like, run down the end of our time? Is there anything coming up for you that aside from, there’s nothing you can do that, that you’re super excited about?

Cole Hayley
I’m trying to think if there is something that I don’t know if I could talk about. Yeah, yeah.

Cole Hayley

Cole Hayley
That that I have another show that I think is happening that’s happening in Newfoundland this summer that is, that I don’t think I’m allowed to announce yet, but it’s, it’s a show about, that I wrote about resettlement.

Cole Hayley
It’s land. And, it’s a show called The Thin Place. But, yeah, I mean, I, I don’t know when this is going to go up, but it might be announced by then, but, b

Phil Rickaby
gotta. We gotta be better safe than sorry.

Phil Rickaby
Just as we’re coming to a close. Where can people find you? On line.

Cole Hayley
Yeah. So I have a I have a website that, is so funny. I, of I’ve everything I’ve done in my life, in my career, I made this website myself on Squarespace, and I put it up on my Facebook and say, I like you. Just look at my little website when you want to see what I’m up to.

Cole Hayley
And, I’ve never gotten mostly from, relatives or like, people in my own community or like, in, where I grew up. I just had a bunch of, congratulations on this website. I have messages from everywhere being like, oh, my God, so much congratulations on this website. When I, when I got the Tom Hendry, I don’t, I got a couple of emails from people who were theatre adjacent, but.

Cole Hayley
No, nobody. My dad’s, my dad’s third cousin. It was a message. Me. But, he was when I was put up this website. So people, people like the website. You find me at the website, which is, dot kahele.com. That’s mostly for when it comes to professional stuff. That’s that’s where you can find most of my stuff.

Cole Hayley
I usually keep that pretty updated. I’m on Facebook, I’m on Instagram, I’m on LinkedIn. I don’t know why you would follow me there, but you could, but those are. Yeah, mostly my website. Yeah.

Cole Hayley
Yeah. Yeah.

Cole Hayley
I agree, I think everyone should have one, and it’s, this is not an ad for Squarespace at all, but I had, I used Squarespace, and it was pretty easy, and, like, a lot of fun.

Phil Rickaby
Nice.

Cole Hayley
Uh, nice.

Phil Rickaby
I’m not supported by Squarespace. We don’t have any advertising. But yeah, there’s your Squarespace. Huh? Endorsement. Cool. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. Really appreciate it. It was great to get to know you.

Cole Hayley
Yeah, thank you, Phil. That was awesome.