#401 – Graham Isador
Stageworthy is back! After a year-long hiatus, host Phil Rickaby returns to celebrate and amplify Canadian theatre. In this first episode of the relaunch, Phil sits down with playwright, journalist, and Globe and Mail staff writer Graham Isador.
Graham discusses his latest play, Truck, a powerful exploration of automation, AI, and the future of labour, opening at Factory Studio Theatre in Toronto on March 26-30, 2025. He also shares insights on his career in journalism, his experience with vision loss that led to the CBC podcast Shortsighted, and the challenges of making theatre in Canada.
This episode dives into:
- Graham’s journey from punk rock journalism to theatre.
- The impact of AI on creative industries and writing.
- The financial realities of producing independent theatre in Canada.
- And Much more…
Guest:
🎭 Graham Isador
Graham Isador is a writer based in Toronto. Called a “master storyteller” by the Toronto Guardian, his works has appeared at VICE, GQ, and The BBC. In 2024, Isador wrote and hosted “Short Sighted” for the CBC, a podcast documenting his experience with vision loss. He is currently a staff writer with The Globe and Mail.
Selected television writing credits: Sight Unseen (CTV, The CW), ONE Championship (Amazon Prime)
Select Theatre Credits: Situational Anarchy (Pandemic Theatre), WHITE HEAT (English Theatre Berlin), Take d Milk, Nah? (Rumble Theatre), TRCUK (Factory Theatre)
Connect with Graham:
📸 Instagram: @presgang
🌐 Bluesky: @grahamisador.bsky.social
📝 Read his work at The Globe and Mail
Tickets for Truck Factory Theatre – March 26-30, 2025: Get Tickets
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Transcript
Transcript is auto generated and may contain minor errors.
Phil Rickaby: So about a year ago, I said goodbye. I published the 400th episode of Stageworthy, and I told you that that was it. Stageworthy was over, that after seven years Stageworthy was done. I was leaving it behind me and, and I meant it at the time, nonstop for almost nonstop for seven years. I’d put out episode after episode every week.
Phil Rickaby: Recording at least one episode a week. Sometimes I would record two to three episodes a week. It’s an exhausting pace. I was done or so I thought, and then 2025 started and rhetoric from the United States made me start thinking about Canada’s place in the world, about Canada’s place within itself. And I started thinking about how theatre.
Phil Rickaby: Culture, sit in all of that, and I started thinking about how Canada has this habit of downplaying its own, like our theatre, our television, our movies. They’re not as good as what comes from the states now. There are differences between what’s produced in Canada and what’s produced in the us. We have different systems and we have different systems of funding, which means a different work gets created.
Phil Rickaby: But I, I do think that there’s a lot of great work that happens in Canada, in the arts and you know, my focus is theatre and I’ve been thinking a lot about theatre’s place in Canada and the world since this 51st state rhetoric started in the United States. And I started to think about how I had a lot to say still.
Phil Rickaby: Or even more Now, I’m a very, I’m an opinionated person. I still wanted to be celebrating Canadian artists and Canadian theatre makers, and to me there was one way to do that, and that was to bring Stageworthy back and to make sure that, that we were having important conversations, not just interviews, which I think are also important.
Phil Rickaby: Interviewing artists. I want to talk to artists that are, are well known and, and artists that I think that you as the audience really should know. And I wanna talk to people who are like theatre in general. One of the problems with theatre in Canada is that the people who are the greatest fans of theatre are the people who make it.
Phil Rickaby: And so that’s who ends up consuming a lot of the content around theatre. And that’s not bad. The people who make it should be the, should be fans of it, but. I think there’s, there needs to be more to it than that. In, in the United States and in the UK and in other places in the world. There are fans of theatre people who love the theatre for itself, who go to see multiple things, uh, a year.
Phil Rickaby: But Canada has this thing where our own homegrown art is not seen as, as worthy unless it finds success in the states. And I, I want to combat that. I, I think that, that, that we need to, we need to look at that and we need to, we need to talk about that, and we need to, to be looking at the way that we talk about theatre, the way that we talk about theatre, both to ourselves and the way that we advertise it, and the way that we talk about it in the world outside of the theatre.
Phil Rickaby: Do we need to be careful that we’re not talking about theatre? As though we’re only talking to the people who make it. We need to really watch that. And so I wanna have these conversations about issues and about important things that we should be talking about. I want to talk to people from all over the country.
Phil Rickaby: I live in Toronto and there, Toronto is a very busy theatrical place, and so there’s a lot of attention that I paid to Toronto because that’s who’s approaching me. I’m getting press releases from Toronto and things like that. I am making an effort to both talk to people who are outside of Toronto. I’m still gonna talk to the people in the Toronto theatre scene, but I wanna talk to people from all over Canada, and I also want to do showcases of different areas in Canada.
Phil Rickaby: So I want to talk about the theatre scene in St. John’s, Newfoundland, or Edmonton in Vancouver, in in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. I want to talk about. The theatre scenes in those places and sort of like introduce those places to people who don’t live there. Because, because of the way that Canada is, we have these great open spaces and theatre scenes in sort of silos.
Phil Rickaby: But if we were to be able to share our theatre, we could get so much more out of it. One of the things that had driven my thinking about ending Stageworthy was the fact that I had been for seven years just pumping money. Into it, paying for the website, paying for editing software, paying for hosting.
Phil Rickaby: And I’d never been, I’d never seen a return on that investment, uh, financially. And because the cost of living was rising and because of everything else, I got to the point where I had to say, I cannot afford to do this anymore. So I started a Patreon and I said, if I can get there certain number of backers, then I can start Stageworthy again.
Phil Rickaby: I got it. So that’s one of the reasons why I’m talking to you because a group of people decided that Stageworthy was worth enough to them to return, was worth enough to them, for them to put money into it, to back it financially. Things that I want to provide to the backers whenever possible, and it’s not always gonna be possible, but whenever I can, I want to give them an advance, uh, listen to the, to a podcast.
Phil Rickaby: They are people who back the podcast on Patreon are going to be sort of a brain trust. We’re gonna talk together about panel topics and things like that, and they’re going to have the opportunity to ask questions of the guests that I have on the program. And if that sounds like it’s interesting to you, I’d love to have you there.
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Phil Rickaby: This week for my first episode, I am talking to Graham Isadore. Graham is a writer that in my years circulating or circling the the theatre industry, I’ve seen Graham’s name come up a lot. Graham is a staff writer for The Globe and Mail. He’s written many different plays, as well as a podcast documenting his experience with vision loss called Shortsighted that was released by the CBC.
Phil Rickaby: Graham’s new show Truck is being produced this week. As this episode comes out. It’s opening this week on the 26th at the Factory theatre in Toronto, and so here’s my conversation with Graham Isador.
Phil Rickaby: How long have you been at the Globe and Mail full-time?
Graham Isador: Uh, I started full-time there in January, so I had been freelancing for them for the past couple years, um, kind on, not for a while. And, uh, this opportunity came out to be. Uh, pursuits team as the Healthy Living reporter. So basically what happened is, like, that’s a new role and when I interviewed I was like, Hey, can I continue doing the stuff that I have been doing for you guys over there?
Graham Isador: So that had included health and fitness, that included a bit of style, um, as well as, uh, talking about disability and travel as well too. So all those things in tandem. Um. Kind of came together and now fall under the umbrella of what my role is over there. So yeah, I’ve been there since January full-time.
Graham Isador: Um, and that was, uh, it’s a, it’s a real godsend. I’m super grateful for the job.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, I’m sure. I’m sure it’s, I mean, one of the thing I think that, that, um, generally when people think about what newspaper we’re working at, a newspaper looks like we all have very, uh, Hollywood ideas of what. It might look like the day to day, like people running around and that sort of thing.
Phil Rickaby: Um. I imagine it’s not quite like that.
Graham Isador: I mean, I, I think it fits a lot of the expectations of what I had for it in some ways. Like it’s, um, you know, like I cut my teeth advice many years ago, um, as, uh, you know, one of the first, uh, major journalism jobs that I picked up after freelancing for, you know, the better part of my early twenties and Vice was a very specific place in terms of just like, uh, a lot of the.
Graham Isador: Good and bad that gets thrown around by that place is pretty true. Um, you know, it, it was, it was fueled on a lot of different, um. A lot of different vices, like the namesake and there was a, a, you know, a beer tap and in, in the office and all of these other things. And the globe like, uh, it really hits at these like, um, yeah, a lot of like what I had imagined like a newspaper would look like growing up.
Graham Isador: So, you know, there’s breaking news, there’s people going on, you know, where we’re the first to know about a bunch of stuff going there. And my particular role is funny ’cause um, you know, I think I exist as, as this, um. Interesting novelty to them a lot of times. So, you know, I was coming in specifically to kind of continue on some of the type of work that I had been doing, advice and, um, a lot of the first person essay stuff that is rooted in, uh, a little bit of humor, but a lot of just like perspective and pushing that stuff forward and is very voicey and that’s different than a lot of what has existed at the Globe previous to, to be kind of coming out there.
Graham Isador: So I think that there’s that, uh, perception of like, what. You know, the Aaron Sorkin, uh, ideal of it all, like, I think is true, uh, in terms of a lot of people for the globe. And then, you know, then I roll in and tell them some silly project I’m working on that week or,
Phil Rickaby: um,
Graham Isador: you know, whatever, uh, uh, kind of, uh, tickles my fancy in some ways there.
Graham Isador: So, uh, yeah, I’m really grateful to have the, the opportunity to work there. ’cause it’s just the, the ability to pursue, um, a lot of different facets that have been interesting to me for a long time. So, yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Let’s, let’s jump in and talk about, about trucks. Is that, that’s the theatre thing that’s like right at the forefront and you’re working on it right now. Um, just as a start, tell me about truck.
Graham Isador: So Truck, uh, as a concept like the, the taglines that we’ve been using around it is that it’s a retirement speech for the last truck driver in America.
Graham Isador: After all, long haul trucks become self-driving. Uh, so there was an incarnation of this, um, the monologue that kind of anchors this whole show that existed since about 2017. Um, I was asked to perform, uh, in a theatre experiment called, um, wrecking Ball. Uh, and, um. A number of different artists were given a topic and, and had 10 minutes to kind of present on that topic.
Graham Isador: So, um, 2017, a lot of people were talking about Trump and, and kind of how the future might look like for, with that and, and these new ideas that were kind of just coming in at the time. And to me, um, you know, that stuff was interesting for sure, but like what I was fascinated with was. Automation. So I had been reading a lot about, um, what’s happening in Amazon warehouses and how uh, a lot of the jobs there had been outsourced to robots.
Graham Isador: Basically, they, they were trying to make, um, all the warehouse, uh, as automated as possible in that way. And I was looking at the manual labor world. Um, and some of those things were echoed in simple stuff like, uh, you know, even just grocery stores replacing. Cashiers with self checkup machines sooner thereafter, there became, uh, the, the delivery robots that were kind of running around Toronto for a little bit, um, pre pandemic that were starting to deliver food and these other things and all of this, um, I.
Graham Isador: When I started to think about, uh, what things would look like in another 10 years, you know, I was like, oh, you know, the writing is on the wall for a lot of these, like manual labor jobs. Like a lot of it seems like it’s going away. So I had written this retirement speech, um, uh, for a long tell truck driver, you know, at this fictional conference that was going on and had done that speech.
Graham Isador: And it had gone quite well. People seemed to really respond to, um, that kind of 10 minute version that I had performed myself. Uh, and yeah, so I just kept on kind of thinking about that. Um. That is a concept. And more and more, as the years went by, it just seemed to become more and more relevant to everything that was going on.
Graham Isador: So what I didn’t know is how much it would be relevant to like my own profession. Um, by the time we’re finally kind of getting this thing produced,
Phil Rickaby: one of the things that has been seeping in to a, a lot of, a lot of, uh, a lot of industries is, is ai. And I, I hate to call it AI because it’s, you know, large model generative algorithms essentially.
Phil Rickaby: Um, or large language models essentially. Um, but uh, it is a lot of companies are, are jumping into that and trying to figure out how they can, how they can use that, how can they reduce their staff by using ai. If you work in customer service, there’s always the talk of like, oh, what if we had like an AI bot?
Phil Rickaby: That sort of stuff. Um. In in the kind of things that you are working in? Are you seeing that seep into the the writing work?
Graham Isador: Yeah, so one of the reasons why I. I felt like truck was so prevalent to be able to put on now and why this seemed like the time for the show is because of ai. Um, it’s not a show about AI in, in so many senses, but a lot of the themes cross over in many ways, uh, in my own life.
Graham Isador: Um, previous to coming on full-time at the Globe, uh, what I was doing is kind of splitting my time between some television work. Um, been writing for a number of different shows for a couple different years, some freelance journalism, uh, some theatre work, but the bulk of my income. On a day-to-day basis was coming from copywriting.
Graham Isador: Um, so I was doing copywriting for tech companies, uh, and that’s how I afforded to pay my rent and my bills most of the time, uh, while pursuing these other dreams that, uh, did not kind of pay my rent and my bills a lot of the time. And a thing happened, uh, but two years ago I was, I was working as a copywriter for a smart home company on a four month contract.
Graham Isador: Uh, and about halfway through the contract, um, my boss at that point was like, Hey, have you heard of chat GPT? Um, you know, of course I was familiar with that at that time, but I was like, I’m, I’m a writer. Why would I, this has nothing to do with me in some senses. And what they were really prevalent on, or what they really pushed rather, was, um, yeah, it was like, could we use, um, AI and these, these large, uh, language models to be able to kind of push out more coffee and kind of double the amount of work that we had been putting out.
Graham Isador: And I don’t think anyone on the team or even the bosses thought that the. Ads that the, um, AI was making were any better than what humans wrote, but they were good enough. Um, and so kind of overnight what my contract became, went from like writing these like pithy little ads, you know, holiday ads for the smart home company, um, to editing the, uh, ads that a robot put out.
Graham Isador: And I was like, okay, cool. Like, you know, I was just very aware at that point that, um, the way that I made my living, uh, was gonna dramatically change. Um, you know, I wasn’t very interested in, in doing the editing for that type of stuff. That’s not what I got into writing for. Um, and also just like, even as a copywriter, I take a lot of pride in my work.
Graham Isador: So. I was just not interested in kind of doing it that way. But more and more I saw so many of those jobs just, um, dry up, you know, and contracts that had been very lucrative for me and that I had kind of been able to rely on through years of experience at that point just did not exist in the same capacity anymore.
Graham Isador: I. So, you know, while I had thought about this on a kind of like hypothetical, you know, 15, 20 years from now, level of what that might mean for manual labor, in some ways I, I hadn’t really realized how much it was kind of coming for, for my work as well. So that is a very big undercurrent of the text that’s kind of going along the play.
Phil Rickaby: It is, um, the, the whole AI thing is, is, is, has kind of been. Uh, as I see more and more companies leaning into it, I get, I get more and more disappointed. Mm-hmm. Um, partially because, I mean, uh, uh, do you know Adam Conover?
Graham Isador: I don’t think I do. No.
Phil Rickaby: He used to do a show called, uh, Adam Ruins everything online and he was, uh, I.
Phil Rickaby: He, he, he was a big voice in the, uh, the, the, the writer’s guilt strike in the States. Um, but he has, he talks a lot about technology and things like that, and he’s been talking to a few people about AI and how essentially the, the technology has stalled. Um, the promise of AI is unfulfilled because the best they can do is still summarizing emails and, uh, generating some text.
Phil Rickaby: Um, but that the amount of information needed to go to the next level does not exist.
Graham Isador: Yeah, I mean, like, I, I. I don’t think that we’re kind of getting to the point where, you know, it’s gonna be able to write novels or whatever else, but like, oh, the, the challenge of that is I don’t think a lot of people care.
Graham Isador: Um, like I, I hear, like, I hear you with that and, but it’s just like it, I’m on team lines about it because I think that, you know, um, in some ways it means that people can write and people who do this for a living, people have real skill with it. That skillset becomes even more valuable as less people can do it.
Graham Isador: Like, you know, the idea of like, uh, people being able to write well and, you know, concisely, um, put together an idea, uh, whether that’s a speech, whether that’s, you know, email, whether that’s whatever, like the language in that way becomes, um, more important as less people have that skill. And for a long time I thought.
Graham Isador: Because, you know, I’m surrounded by journalists and playwrights and theatre people that everybody kind of was able to kind of do the stuff that, that I do. And more and more I’m realizing that’s not true. So there’s that aspect of it, um, that I think, you know, is the, the bright side of a lot of what’s going on.
Graham Isador: And I do think that, you know, a lot of this technology is stalled in some ways, but like, I also don’t think that, um. The good enough is there for a lot of people, whether that’s, you know, kids writing their essays or, you know, quote unquote writing their essays to kind of put this stuff in here, or whether that’s, um, you know, people posting their LinkedIn inspirational quotes, like all of that stuff.
Graham Isador: Like it, it’s just, it’s, um, yeah, it’s a, they, if they don’t understand. The full value in a, in a day-to-day basis, then like the, the, the AI writing is gonna be good enough with that, you know? And so I think that that’s, that’s a reality for a lot of things. And when I think about this, like it’s also. When I’m talking about it, like I, I think that there was a lot of like, you know, ludite smash the computers, uh, you know, um, uh, Unibomber Manifesto, light conversation that was kind of coming my way a lot of the time.
Graham Isador: I was angry, I was really pissed off about it for a long period. But when I think about now, it’s just like, you know, this stuff is here. Right. Like it’s, um, we’re not playing that genie back in the bottle, so how do we wanna approach it in ways that kind of seem as responsible as possible, and like, how are we trying to figure out ways to, to be able to, to live with this as best we can?
Graham Isador: Um, because I don’t really feel like there’s another option as much as I wish there were.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Where do you, uh, as far as like as a tool, where do you land on, on, on, on using it and how, how do you use it, if at all?
Graham Isador: I don’t use it. Um, you know, in my writing, like I, I think that that would be irresponsible of me and, um, you know, not to toot my own horn too much with this stuff, but I can do a better job than.
Graham Isador: AI can, in terms of like sounding bo and sounding like myself, one of the things that I did find interesting though, um, it was this very monkeys paw situation is, um, over the last year, um, you know, the, the contract wrapped up now, but I was writing about new technologies for Dropbox. Um, they have a blog and I was, um, writing an article a month for that because it was a, a nice little gig for me and it paid a lot.
Graham Isador: Um, and. When I got hired on, you know, they were talking about like, how are we finding the intersections of technology and disability, which is one of the things that I’m quite passionate as a person who has visual issues. Um, but, uh, the person who hired me on immediately went on mat leave and then the job became writing about ai.
Graham Isador: Um, and so they were trying to find positive use cases for it. So like, I mean, I don’t use it for writing or anything like that, but I have noticed, um. There’s, there’s a, an app called Be My Eyes, um, that for anybody who’s visually impaired or blind, um, it can take a photo or a video of what’s in front of you and then describe it back to you, uh, in real time of what’s going on there.
Graham Isador: Um, you know, and a tool like that is invaluable for a lot of people. It really opens up a lot of possibilities. Um, right now they’re working with language models to be able to figure out how to translate, sign language in real time, um, using ai, uh, so that, uh, folks are able to better communicate and understand, um, in situations that had not been previously open to them.
Graham Isador: There’s, uh, AI therapists that I’ve, you know, used for, um. Uh, articles that are trying to fill stock gaps right now in terms of like the mental health crisis that’s going on across North America. Um, and there’s, you know, problems with these things certainly, but like, I do think that there’s like, um, to be entirely doom and gloom about it.
Graham Isador: Uh, you know, I think is is a little naive in some ways. I think that there are positive use cases for these things, and I think that there are ways that they’re, they’re gonna be beneficial in the future in some ways. But what. Gets me angry about it is this idea that like, you know, a lot of the skillset that me and my Prince have worked very hard on and is, uh, much more difficult than a lot of people we give it credit for is kind of being devalued by, um, yeah.
Graham Isador: Like people who think that again, this good enough mentality kind of comes through on it, but yeah, I think it’s here, you know, and I think that, you know, so we have to try to figure out ways to, to use it as positively as we can. Um. I think if you’re a writer and you’re using it or a creative writer and you’re using it, you’re being lazy and you shouldn’t have your job anymore.
Graham Isador: But, um, that’s a, that’s another conversation.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, I’ve occasionally, as, as a curious person, I’ve used it, but I’ve used it and, and been like, write this and I hate everything it puts out, but that teaches me that I hate it. Like, these are the initial things that this puts out. I hate every one of these.
Graham Isador: Yeah. I mean, like, I, I think that there’s curiosity with it for sure, but there was also curiosity. I don’t remember if, um, you know, I’m dating myself a little bit here, but there was a, a, a bot early in kind of AOL chatroom days, MSN chatroom days called Smarter Child, um, that, you know, you could chat to and would chat back to you in the same way that AI is doing now.
Graham Isador: And that existed in like. 2006, you know, and like, and I remember being fascinated by that of just like, okay, this goes to the machine, you know, a blade runner risk thing that’s going on. And I was curious on, on, on that level. And I think that there’s still some spike of curiosity in me in terms of like, you know, what does it mean to talk to machines in this way?
Graham Isador: And like, um, you know, how are we approaching, uh, those types of things in terms of like, uh, alright, thinking about, um. Broader conversations around loneliness and, and feelings of isolation in those ways. Like, that’s fascinating to me for sure. And like I can understand like the use case for being like, curious about what it does.
Graham Isador: ’cause it’s a, it’s a, you know, it’s like a Google search engine that hallucinates, you’re something kind of like curious about that on some level too. I just, like, if you’re, I think a lot of time when people are talking about writer’s block or talking about like, um, you know, oh, it can come up with these ideas from you.
Graham Isador: It’s just like. Think you should try harder instead.
Phil Rickaby: It, I mean, it’s true. I remember, I don’t remember what year it was. It was, uh, a couple of years ago or within the last year, there was, uh, I think there was a fringe festival show that was like, um, we’re working with an AI generated script and there was a lot of backlash, understandably, um, about the idea of.
Phil Rickaby: Of at a fringe festival that’s always been about people and indie stuff, um, uh, using AI generated an AI generated play. Um, and I think it, it also spoke to a lot of the fears that were going on at the time with the, the Writers’ Guild and the, and the Actors’ Guild in the states. All, all sort of like being on strike about the same, the same kind of thing.
Phil Rickaby: Um, it is, but again, I think they felt they were doing it, or they said they were doing it as an experiment, but it’s really hard to get past.
Graham Isador: Yeah. I like, I think if people, if, if there weren’t people actively trying to use this stuff to replace creative people entirely, then I think that there would be more of a use case in a sort of like, um, you know, uh, like, uh.
Graham Isador: Sort of, um, pop art kind of way to be able to look at it, you know, in terms of just like, uh, the Warhol of it all in terms of just like, what is reproduction Like when we’re talking about like, you know, theorists, like, like Walter Betaine, like, where it’s just like, okay, do we lose something in the copy of something?
Graham Isador: Or if it’s not, um, if know if there’s no. If we’re moving it so far removed from like the, the first iteration of this, like what does it mean for the like, soul of this thing? And I think that there’s kind of some interesting question in there, you know, potentially, but like I just haven’t found a use case for it creatively in that way.
Graham Isador: And I think if people are trying to like engage it, um, you know, on that level that there’s something that’s kind of fascinating to me with it. But I don’t think that that’s most people going on, you know, like, I think that, um, most people’s just like, okay, well I don’t wanna write my. Weddings or, you know, like my, my, my little paragraphs.
Graham Isador: It was just like, and, and I think that, you know, I was thinking about this today a lot that. All of this stuff is hard, right? Like it’s, um, I think that it takes a skillset and work and talent and time to really hone the craft in some ways, to be able to get to the point where you can feel confident in your art, in your writing, but the value, um.
Graham Isador: A lot of time, you know, on a personal level is the, the struggle of that thing. You know, trying to figure out what something is, trying to bring something to life, uh, that only existed in your head before that and trying to create the best version of that. Like there’s something very joyous. Um, and that’s like, uh.
Graham Isador: My favorite way to spend time. Um, you know, theatre in so many ways feels largely impossible to do right now on like a financial level. And, you know, on a creative level, it’s difficult to be able to like figure out how to, you know, put in the proper amount of time and effort and resources, money to make something go up.
Graham Isador: But, uh, and as hard as just like, okay, well you’re working with your friends or a group of people to bring something to life that only exists in somebody’s head before that. And that’s. Magic to me. You know, that’s, that’s wizardry, that’s, uh, everything. And like, uh, I think skipping the steps in between is really robbing people of, um, yeah.
Graham Isador: The joy of what that thing is. You know, it’s just like, that’s, that’s why it matters to me a lot of the time. And I think that the mistakes and the, um. Challenges and the things that like, uh, feel very unique to the person, um, are always what draw me to the art more than any sort of perfection of it, you know?
Graham Isador: And if we don’t have that, like, if it doesn’t exist because something else, uh, made it, you know, it has nothing to do with humans, then like, I’m just really not that interested in it.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. Yeah. I heard a, there was a phrase going around that I don’t really wanna see art that nobody cared to make.
Graham Isador: Mm-hmm.
Graham Isador: Mm-hmm. I think that’s right.
Phil Rickaby: Its Unfathomable to, unfathomable to me that somebody wants to write a book without having written it or like write a, a play without having written it like that. Like you said, it’s a joy for me to be writing, not revising so much, but it’s part of the, part of the process that you have to go through. But like the writing of something, that’s a joy.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. I mean, the wonderful thing about is that an audience will accept it. Yeah. If all of the pieces aren’t there, the audience will accept and just like go with it, which is a, which is always a wonderful thing about the theatre.
Graham Isador: Yeah, and I mean, like, I, you know, like I’ll watch a Robert LaPage show and, and be in awe of that stuff in terms of what he’s able to put together, uh, of something like that.
Graham Isador: Or the, these giant, you know, stuff that has this movie stages at the SHA or the Stratford or whatever. I like a lot of that work and I think there’s a lot of creativity that can kind of go into that to make the set and the costuming and the lighting and all that like really sing. Um, but for me, I’m kind of like, Hey, if we got a good script, then we’ve got some good actors.
Graham Isador: Uh, that’s usually enough. You know, I’m like, I’m interested in the story, the thing on the time. And I think there’s many different ways to tell that story. And, you know, I’d happily take the. The big budget version of this, if that was a possibility. But like, uh, you know, we have some really incredible actors in this show.
Graham Isador: I’m, I’m very proud of the script, the sound design’s awesome. And I was like, alright, well let’s just get outta the way and see if people respond to it.
Phil Rickaby: Now, I’m, I can cut this out if you’re not interested in talking about this, but one of the things that you wrote when, uh, uh, we were sort of like initially talking about this was about the production not getting the grant and, um.
Phil Rickaby: How you feel if we’re feeling like this might be the last time you do this.
Graham Isador: Yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Um,
Graham Isador: I have been talking about that a little bit. Like, I, I think that I am very aware in, in what’s happening right now that like, um, it’s been very challenging over the past kind of decade to be able to put up work that for all intents and purposes, has been quite successful.
Graham Isador: Like, you know, I’ve got one awards and I’ve gotten produced, you know. Um, in Ireland and in Berlin and, and all these different places, and I’ve, you know, done summer works, you know, half a dozen times and we won awards at the Fringe and all this stuff. And I think, uh, I do feel at this point that, you know, I believe very heavily in, in my playwriting abilities and, and the work that I’ve been able to do there.
Graham Isador: But what’s challenging to me, um, is not the idea that like, okay. Uh, it’s not even that like I’m fine with not getting paid for this stuff, which, because I’m in a privileged position that I have jobs, uh, other writing jobs that I can afford this stuff. What becomes more difficult is the idea that I lose money doing stuff that.
Graham Isador: Successful. Um, and that’s the challenge of it, you know, like, um, factory, the co-production here, it was just like they, they’ve given us the tons and tons and tons of resources and we could not be doing this without them. But, uh, we are really relying on trying to get, uh, our Arts Council grants, um, uh, you know, or, uh, Canada Council Grant to kind of get this.
Graham Isador: Done and even being a part of a person’s season, um, you know, even, uh, having, uh, a cast of known actors who have a number of accolades behind them. Uh, you know, a workshop that sold out and did really well, some great quotes, uh, letters of recommendation, all that stuff that just didn’t come through. So I spent x amount of time like writing those grants.
Graham Isador: Um, that didn’t happen. I still really believe in the show I’m wanted to do it and like it’s a tiny violin because I know so many other people who create indie theatre like are also in this boat. Um, I’m just feeling like a lot of ways that like, I don’t know if I can risk putting up, you know, X amount of my own money.
Graham Isador: Again, that fingers crossed, will make back, you know, if ticket sales and everything goes well. Uh, but to spend. You know, half a year of my life or more kind of putting up a show that, um, ultimately, you know, um, is gonna pay me less than like one freelance article I could do. And so, yeah, it’s just, there’s a little bit of, um, I’m feeling in many ways that it’s just like, this is probably the last time that I produce a play.
Graham Isador: Um, I don’t know if it’s last. Staying alive or doing theatre. And I think it’s quite possibly that that’s true, and there’s something that, that’s a little sad about that to me in some ways. But, um, I’m also entirely grateful that, uh, you know, there’s x amount of people who have come in under rate right now, um, or have, you know, like put aside their rate for the moment to, and hopefully there’ll be a profit share enough to pay them back later.
Graham Isador: Um, because we all believe in the shout, right? You know, really wanna do it. Um, there’s rose colored glasses to that for sure, but there’s also something kind of amazing. So it as a financial way to make money or, you know, um, as, as a a, a living it. I don’t think theatre in Canada is something that I could suggest for many people, but I.
Graham Isador: I think if anybody has any, any inclination towards it at all. Um, I really hope that they get to do it too, because when it all comes together, there’s, there’s absolutely nothing I enjoy more. So, yeah. And I’m on two minds about it in that way, but it’s just that, uh, I think anybody listening to this podcast, um, you know, I feel like a lot of folks will know, like just how hard it’s to try to make something work, uh, and be financially viable.
Phil Rickaby: I mean, I think the, the, it’s the financially viable stuff that’s, that’s the hardest. And I, I don’t know. My perception is, and I could be wrong, that it is uniquely a Canadian issue, um, in the way that we fund things, in the way that, um, we have this weird perception about, um, Canadian work and how in its place, in the grand scheme of, of, of the arts, that it might be less than what comes out of the UK or the us.
Phil Rickaby: Um, and also I think. I don’t know. It, there’s a, there, I think there might be, there’s funding issues, obviously. Mm-hmm. Um, I remember years ago, um, there was an actor who was, they were on the cover of, now again, this dates me, but you know, they were on the cover of the NOW magazine, which is a big deal for a theatre artist.
Phil Rickaby: Um, and they were saying that at the same time, they were on the cover of the now, uh, they were wondering how they were gonna make their rent.
Graham Isador: Yeah. And I think that that’s been a reality for so many people, you know, in this industry for, for quite some time. And like, I don’t know, like I, I, I think I used to kind of get very angry about the grant process and like, you know, what more do we need to do to kind of get this through?
Graham Isador: But truthfully, there’s, there’s a lot of great artists, a lot of people like vying for, for, you know. Funding that just, um, a, a smaller pot in some ways, and as cost of living has changed and all of this stuff. And so, you know, I don’t really have sour grapes in terms of that. Like, there’s, like, I, I really believe in my art, but like there’s a lot of great artists and I’m really glad that somebody’s getting money up there to be able to do it.
Graham Isador: It’s just in, in these ways. It was just like, I don’t know, you know, at this point in my mid thirties, like what I’m seeing here, uh, I feel less okay asking people. Um. You know, to work for free or, or, you know, like trying to figure out this like, um, uh, yeah, just this, this kind of like collective spirit of how we’re all doing it.
Graham Isador: That said, you know, like, nobody’s working for free on this show, but like, it’s, um, they’re, they’re under rates of what they could be right now and like we’re, we’re hustling to try to figure out to get them how to get them to. To their rates and, you know, fingers crossed will sell the, the ticket sales to be able to do that.
Graham Isador: But like, yeah, I’m, I’m entirely grateful for like that type of stuff happening, but it just feels in so many ways that like, um, especially having spent like the last couple years, uh, in addition to copywriting and all these, and, you know, pre journalism, all that stuff. I was also writing on a TV show for the past couple years and like, um, uh, the, the gap in terms of just like.
Graham Isador: Uh, what I got paid for one episode of TV versus, um, what I got paid for, like my most lucrative theatre contracts ever. It’s just like, it’s not comparable in so many ways. Like one, one is a way that you can make a living, and the other is just like, you know, I, I’m, I’m hesitant to call it a hobby because, uh, I feel like what I do is professional and you know, and, and we’ve done it at, on this like big level on a lot of time, but it was just like practically, I was like.
Graham Isador: I get paid more doing literally anything else.
Phil Rickaby: Sure it is. And producing is exhausting and I think that you, people don’t often know that until they’ve done it.
Graham Isador: Yeah. I mean, it’s like, it’s un unsung heroes, a lot of folks who are doing this stuff. It’s, it’s a lot less fun, at least for me than, uh, you know, uh, all of the artistic sides of this.
Graham Isador: But it, it’s hard in so many senses too. ’cause it was just like, in addition to like having to, to. Do so many emails and keep a budget and all this other stuff. Um, you know, I’m also trying to figure out how to direct and then do some rewrites on the script and, and, you know, and figure out some marketing and photos and, and all of this other stuff.
Graham Isador: And so there’s just a lot hats to wear and, you know, like. I went into this, like, very grateful for the opportunity to do this play. And again, like this doesn’t happen without the supportive factory and, and the resources that they’ve afforded, um, myself and, and, and the crew. But like, yeah, it’s just like, uh, we, like, even, even like we didn’t ask for the full amounts for the grants.
Graham Isador: Like even 15 grand from one place would’ve like been tremendously changing for this show. Um, and like. That’s a lot of money and it’s not in some ways, you know, um, but yeah, it’s just like those are the realities of the situation and like, I don’t think I’m very unique and kind of feeling that way, um, in terms of just feeling like, yeah, a little tired and a little burned up by these things.
Graham Isador: Uh, which is a big contrast to kind of the idea of like how I present my work a lot of the time and how fortunate I’ve been to like, um. You know, have people write about the shows and, and, you know, um, uh, be very kind of like out there in a lot of ways with, with what I put on. So it’s a, it’s a real contradiction a lot of time.
Graham Isador: And I feel like, um, uh, yeah, just like at this point in my life, when I’m thinking about where I wanna put time and resources into, like, uh, I felt like it had to be this play now. Like this play felt very important for me and, and this feels like the moment for it. But yeah, I can’t see in terms of writing something new or putting that stuff together, I’d, I’d much rather take that time and, and play it into a TV project or a movie project or something because it seems like such a crap shoot to get anything produced in theatre that, um, you know, I might as well take those risks and try to make literally, like 12 times the amount of money.
Graham Isador: So, um, yeah.
Phil Rickaby: Um, I wanted to ask you about shortsighted. Because, uh, you know, this is, this is a, a, a podcast documenting your experience with, with vision loss. And I, I’m curious how that came together. Um, um, did they approach you, did you approach them? How did, uh, how did the idea of telling your visual story through an audio means come to you?
Graham Isador: Yeah, so, uh, shortsighted, um, for folks who don’t know, it’s a, it’s a five part CBC podcast that I hosted and wrote, um, about my vision loss. Uh, I have a degenerative condition called keratoconus, and for the past decade or so, um, that’s. Progressed pretty rapidly to the point where now, um, no longer able to drive.
Graham Isador: Uh, I have trouble with bright lights. I can’t really tell, um, the details of why folks faces anymore unless they’re very close up to me. Um, so yeah, uh, that was something that I had been writing about. Um. For a number of different publications, uh, and writing about how that had changed my approach to work and, and how things were going on there.
Graham Isador: So, um, you know, I had had a, I, I thought I was done with art for a while and I was gonna take a very lucrative bank job that I was offered doing some, uh, creative UX writing that was gonna pay me. More money than I ever thought I’d be paid for anything my whole life. And, uh, when I went to go get trained for it, um, it turns out that I couldn’t actually see the screen well enough to be able to do the job.
Graham Isador: None of us really had factored in that that was gonna be, um, I. Problem. Uh, yeah, there’s just nothing. Uh, when I had approached that job and, and gone through the interview process, that kind of signaled that, so that those folks were, were very cool to me. Um, you know, when I said, Hey, I don’t think this is working out, and, um, you know, tried to figure out ways to work around it, but ultimately, like I left that job.
Graham Isador: Um, and I did a, a article in Toronto Life that, um, about that process that, that picked up a lot of steam. Um, someone showed that, uh, yeah, when, um. There was a couple different streams that were happening, uh, for CBC Gem, um, about documentary and, um, I ended up, uh, taking some of what was in that essay and, and trying to make a visual doc with it.
Graham Isador: So we got very pretty far along in that process with CBC Gem. And then ultimately, um, when it came down to the funding time, they were like, Hey, we really love this idea, but, um, we’re having like just trouble figuring out what it would look like on a visual level, which is, you know, so important for docs.
Graham Isador: Well, yeah, me too. Um, that’s, that’s the whole point. The not knowing about the visual level is kind of the whole thing of this. So I, you know, I was complaining about that to some friends. Um, one of who, um, Leah, who is, uh, one of the hosts of Secret Life Canada, and she’s like, Hey, do you, do you think it’ll work for CC podcasts?
Graham Isador: Um, you know, like, what happened if you took the visuals out of it entirely? Uh. Yeah, so that’s, we went through a couple different rounds with them and that’s how that project kind of came to light. So it was adapted from, uh, a documentary that I was trying to put together for CBCG. And then we started thinking about like, if we no longer centered visual language, um.
Graham Isador: Uh, or like a visual presentation when talking about vision loss. Like how would that feel? And yeah. So that was kinda the birth of the show. Um, uh, yeah, and we’d done, uh, I had done some of that stuff and some of the stories that ended up in that podcast, um, uh, live at different storytelling nights and such.
Graham Isador: Um, there was a, a workshop production that happened at Targon of like a storytelling version of the podcast that, you know, pretty decently. But, um. As a, as a podcast for CBC.
Phil Rickaby: Uh, had you done audio work like that before?
Graham Isador: No. Um, no. But I had been, uh, you know, a lot of my background was live storytelling as well too.
Graham Isador: Uh, and that’s something that I had done a lot in addition to playwriting, um, uh. Uh, you know, since my early twenties, so that was one man shows and that was all of these different things. And through some of that work I had, um, been in touch with some producers. Over at CBC and some producers at this American Life, um, which is a show that was on NPR is now, um, its own thing.
Graham Isador: Um, but yeah, it, uh, I had chat with some of those folks about storytelling and structure and, you know, I put them in touch to get some stories on air for, for other folks and things. So I had a sense of like what I wanted to do with it, but had never done anything that was, um, uh, just straight audio focused before that.
Phil Rickaby: One of the fascinating things about audio for me is I’ve heard it described as the most visual medium. Um, in that, um, when it’s done really well, it can spark the imagination of the person listening so that they will experience the audio drama as though they’re watching it boom. Which is a fascinating thing that, uh, uh, uh.
Phil Rickaby: I think I, I’ve listened to stuff where, where that’s happened. Um, and it’s, it’s a fascinating idea about treating the audio in that way.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah. When you talk about about audio being so intimate, I often think about how, like when I’m doing a podcast or thinking about podcasts, I’m always cognizant of the fact that a lot of people are listening to this. Directly in their ears, there’s no, there’s not even air between them and the medium that’s pumping it into their ears.
Phil Rickaby: And so you are essentially like speaking directly into the ears of the person that’s listening. Um, and that can be a very, it’s a very powerful thing when you think about that. Um, especially if you’re telling a, a really intimate, quiet story.
Graham Isador: Yeah, and I think it, it creates a sense of, um, that, you know, people in a different way.
Graham Isador: Uh, you know, I’m sure you have listeners kind of come up who have listen to this show, you know, who have, um, who you might not know personally, but have a sense of who you are through this time period. Uh, and yeah, like you’re spending, you know, an hour each week or an hour every couple weeks with somebody or in your ear that way.
Graham Isador: And I think about. Even my closest friends at this point in my life, it was just like, I don’t get that consistency with a lot of them. So it kind of builds that, those, um, you know, parasocial relationships or those like, uh, that, that real feeling of like trust with your, with your audience and, and with the creators that.
Graham Isador: Uh, I really enjoyed, and, and you know, I’ve been, it’s been, I have that relationship with a lot of my favorite shows and have been very fortunate in terms of getting some feedback or shortsighted in terms of, uh, yeah, just the way that people have approached that.
Phil Rickaby: Mm-hmm. Graham, I want to ask you a little bit about, um, your history with theatre and, and how you, uh, came to be involved in it.
Phil Rickaby: For me, uh, uh, a performer or a theatre person’s origin story is always a fascinating thing. How did you discover both writing and theatre for yourself, and how did it become a thing you really wanted to do?
Graham Isador: I mean, I think I always in some sense had aspirations to be a writer since, uh, uh, you know, kind of like my preteen days.
Graham Isador: Um, I read a lot as a kid and then, uh, around my 12th or 13th birthday, um, my dad gave me, um, the Kurton good novel Breakfast of Champions. And uh, I was just like, oh, a book can do this. You know, like, it, it just, it blew my mind in terms of like what the, the form could be and, and how to approach those things.
Graham Isador: And surely Thereafterwards, you know, I was trying to find some interesting populate, uh, you know, stuff like Nick Koby and, and um, you know, uh, Douglas Copeland and just like, um, really trying to figure out a way to be like, oh, these people seem like rock stars to me, it was the most interesting thing in the world.
Graham Isador: And I think in from very young age, like I knew that I had aspirations to kind of be doing that type of stuff. Um. You know, journalism, uh, uh, was another way in for me. I started interviewing bands when I was very young. Uh, you know, doing my first couple interviews with them, some local punk bands, and then some punk bands who end up being quite big, uh, you know, around my, my 13th and 14th birthday and writing for some, some local kind of photocopied designs.
Graham Isador: So all of that stuff, um, was pretty prevalent in my early life. And, and you know, that trajectory seemed pretty clear to me when I was little. Uh, has been straightforward from there. Um, my way into theatre a lot of the time was just like, um, you know, I was playing in bands and, uh, I had this love of performing, but I just wasn’t that talented as a musician.
Graham Isador: Um, like I loved being on stage and I loved sharing stories and, uh, you know, the bantering between songs was some of my favorite parts. Um, and so a lot of that kind of, you know, started to bleed over into like one man show stuff. And, um, you know, even some early monologues like. Way, way back when I was sort of like 17, 18 years old.
Graham Isador: Um, started writing and performing those for myself. Uh, but yeah, like, you know, I’d done some, some theatre in high school as well too, and, and was very encouraged for that. So when I got to university, you know, the assumption was just kind of like, Hey, I’m gonna barrel through a degree at UT so I can go continue working, um, as a music journalist, which I had been doing anyways.
Graham Isador: But the degree was like a means to get in a app. My parents and then. There was no music journalism by the time I was kind of, uh, you know, in my mid twenties, like the jobs. And that had just kind of, I really gone away a lot of the time. So all that stuff just meant that like I was trying to find different outlets to be able to, to express myself creatively.
Graham Isador: Um, yeah, and theatre kind of popped up in that as well too. So, um, I’d done a little bit in high school and then continued to pursue it in university ’cause I didn’t know what else I was gonna do. Uh, for my undergrad, uh, as a, a secondary thing to English. Um, and then got some really nice feedback from folks like Guillermo Peria and Janet Sears and on my writing, and they were like, Hey, you should really try to think about pursuing this more.
Graham Isador: And, uh, you know, embarked on a life of poverty and freedom from there.
Phil Rickaby: And in terms of, in terms of, uh, uh, like writing, uh, you mentioned doing solo, uh, solo, uh, uh, plays and things like that. Um. There’s a difference when you’re writing a solo play and when you’re writing, uh, uh, uh, like a, I guess you’d call it a straight up play.
Phil Rickaby: Um, for you, um, how are the, how is writing each of those different?
Graham Isador: Yeah. Um, solo plays are easier to me a lot of the time. Um, and storytelling’s a lot easier to me. Uh, I think I’ve just flexed those muscles a lot more in terms of. What I do a lot of the time at the Globe or Vice or at other places I’ve read before was like these personal essays and this long form stuff, um, which felt very adjacent to a lot of my, my solo plays.
Graham Isador: And, you know, I had done, uh, I think three of those, like three solo shows, um, how long solo shows, uh, over the course of my career. And yeah, so that stuff felt very natural to me. I didn’t really need anybody else to be able to kind of play it up and yeah, writing like near the plays and plays that work that way, it’s just like, um.
Graham Isador: Yeah, it’s very different. And like, I think the process of that of, of it’s like a little bit harder, um, but ultimately kind of more rewarding for me too. It’s like trying to figure out how to tell a more complete story. Um, a lot of my work is really still rooted in monologue. Like the end of this show is, is a giant monologue.
Graham Isador: The, the, my last play White Heat, which was about, um, you know, the rise of white supremacy and, um, had journalists respond to that, uh, in. Back and forth monologues for an hour before one scene, um, together. Um, so a lot of that stuff feels still really prevalent within my work and I like that a lot. But yeah, it’s just, um, mapping in and figuring out what happens, uh, in a narrative show.
Graham Isador: Um, I don’t find the writing of it too hard, but the mapping, uh, of stuff feels, feels challenging in a whole different way and just requires a different part of my brain rather than just kind of like talking and.
Phil Rickaby: Yeah, no. Just as we start to get to the, the wind down of our conversation, um, I wanna ask, uh, where people can find you online.
Graham Isador: Yeah. Um. God, social media, it’s a strange thing nowadays. Oh, what, what still exists there? Um, I’m, I’m pressing, um, with one S-P-R-E-S-G-A-N-G on Instagram. Um, Graham is at Ora and Blue Sky there. Uh, and yeah, I’m, I’m around for those types of things. I’m, I’m a very online person, so, um, with that type of stuff, but I’m flying around mostly on, on those things nowadays.
Graham Isador: And then, uh, yeah, I, I’ve got a couple things a week at the Golden Mills well, too nowadays.
Phil Rickaby: And, uh, truck is at the Factory Studio theatre. Uh. March 26th to 30th
Graham Isador: 26th to 30th. Um, God willing, we’ll be announcing a, um, extension week, uh, very soon, um, if ticket sales continue to hold the way that they have. So, fingers crossed, that’s happening too, um, the week after, but right now, the 26th to the 30th, and, uh, yeah, um, uh, tickets are starting to move for that.
Graham Isador: So if you’re, if. As
Phil Rickaby: well. Graham, thank you so much for, for joining me today. Really appreciate, uh, you, uh, coming on. Uh, thank thanks for giving your time.
Graham Isador: Yeah, very excited to do it. It’s a, it’s a show that I’ve listened to for a long time and I’m glad you’re, uh, uh, getting started.
Phil Rickaby: Thank you.
