#39 – Aaron Jan

Aaron Jan is an award winning, Chinese-Canadian playwright, director and founding member of Filament Incubator, a collective devoted to producing 8 plays in 8 months. Most recently, Aaron trained in directing new work as an inaugural member of Factory Theatre’s Foremen Program. Recent directing credits include, Silk Bath (Toronto Fringe), Rowing (Toronto Fringe), Love Broke(Then They Fight) and The 10/10/10 Project (Bismuth Theatre). This fall, Aaron will be producing Curtis te Brinke’s rural monster story, Tire Swing in October and will be directing his own play, queer murder-thriller, Swan in November.

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Transcript

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Phil Rickaby
Welcome to Episode 39 of Stageworthy, I’m your host Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast to a people in Canadian Theatre. on Stageworthy I might talk one on one with an actor, director, playwright or producer or you might get a group of people together to talk about a specific aspects of theatre in Canada. If you’d like to be a guest on stage or the or just want to drop me a line you can find stage with me on Facebook and Twitter at stage where the pod and you can find the website at stage really podcast.com Aaron Jan is an award winning Chinese Canadian playwright, director and founding member of filament incubator Aaron recently directed to two shows in this past summer’s Toronto fringe rowing and silk death. If you enjoy the podcast I hope you’ll subscribe on iTunes or Google music or whatever podcast app you use and consider leaving a comment or rating

tell me about First off, like are you do something in summer works or you just know

Aaron Jan
like I got I’ve, I’m I have a pass on seeing what shows because I never see shows someone works. I’m always working. So yeah, my first feel you’re doing and I’ve been really disappointed.

Phil Rickaby
What? What is what is your primary role in theatre?

Aaron Jan
I’m a director and playwright. Okay. And sometimes producer and

Phil Rickaby
sometimes pretty well, you know, we are all producer producers because because we have to be Right exactly. That’s that’s the important thing. So what is your what is your theatre background?

Aaron Jan
I’m not what do you tell my richer phone? Yeah, well. Yeah, I went to work at Ryerson for a bit. I just finished a training programme with factory and direction new work. I’m undergoing a three to five year mentorship with nearly Aquino direction. Yeah. I’ve been doing fridges for the past 720 years. 2012 Yeah, it’s Hamilton Braves have been born. Now leaving the city for fun reasons.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, we all I mean, fun reasons. I mean, we all have to have to go

Aaron Jan
somewhere. Exactly. I also find the I mean, I’m here this year was really different. But I find the community

Phil Rickaby
there quite toxic. In Hamilton. Yes. Okay.

Aaron Jan
But this year, it was very different. But I couldn’t get we’re friends. Okay. If you’re the fringe of the fringe, I never really find the fringe of toxic environment. I find the local theatre scene to be quite toxic, to be honest.

Phil Rickaby
Okay, now, I want to make sure that you’re aware we are recording now. So we are recording. Yeah. Okay.

Aaron Jan
I’ve said this on many podcast, okay.

Phil Rickaby
I just want to make sure. You know, we’re if we’re gonna if we’re gonna, if we’re going to talk some shit, then I want to make sure that you know that play a little while ago. Oh, yeah. The one thing okay. My thing about Hamilton. Yeah, is Hamilton’s theatre scene could use some proper theatre criticism.

Aaron Jan
I agree. I totally agree. There’s one. There’s one Creek in Hamilton. It’s Gary Smith, who’s the one that like he’s actually critical about things. So the problem is, he’s a different generation

Phil Rickaby
hardly ever, like I literally Okay, first off, he reviewed maybe five of

Aaron Jan
the friends it was isn’t helpful. Kelly pops by

Phil Rickaby
the friend, but generally, generally, every show got a good review. Yeah. And was talking to a couple of people, not everybody, because I think that some people maybe like the fact that they’re getting a good review. Yeah. But if you always get a good review, then your good review means nothing. Yeah, no. What they need is like somebody to actually call them out. And totally, this was not good. This is why or I did not like this because because instead, there was nothing to challenge them. No, no challenge. So you don’t have to strive. Yeah, because you will be considered a success. Because you got good reviews.

Aaron Jan
Yeah. And that’s one of the things that kind of worries me about city too. I listened to your podcast few weeks ago, actually, about the comps. And that bugs me too. I mean, like, yeah, the Witch the witch. There’s, there’s a there’s a culture in Hamilton as the fear

Phil Rickaby
Oh, you mean about like if somebody was to be sorry, I’ve done so many of these. You have to refresh my memory of what we were

Aaron Jan
taught. I think like there’s an interview about like, how the artists and hails were talking about how important it is that they see shows for free or something some some some podcasts. I don’t know if you someone someone else, someone said there was like this word culture in the city.

Phil Rickaby
Here’s here’s my thing. I fringe. Yes, it is important that artists see theatre for free, but there’s a specific reason for that during fringe. Sure. That is number one, it it increases the closeness of the fringe family is your most important thing. Yeah, well, one of the most important things but also, if I see something, I will recommend it not only am I going to code it out, I’m not going to show it out something I have not seen why don’t you out there. And but if I have seen it, and I like I’m going to shout it out. But also I have been in this situation when I’m talking to somebody in a line, and I’m saying, Would you come and see my show? And they say, Oh, I’m not available at that time. I say, well, when are you available? Okay, here’s what’s playing at that time. I’ve seen this show. It’s good. I’m selling other people’s shows. Whether artists should like as a right be able to see other people’s shows for free outside of fringe bucket. No, yeah. Because half of the time our audience is other artists. So yeah, like we have to make a living at this.

Aaron Jan
I’m just I don’t know there’s because one of the things that really bothered me, and this is a bother you can maybe get something volunteer soon. But when Claire stepped into the fringe de Klerk out there counting

Phil Rickaby
I don’t actually she was not, oh, she wasn’t around this year. This year. She was on mat leave. So was the interim director was Jessica

Aaron Jan
Anderson. Yeah. Oh, Claire, really, truly fringe around? Because what she did was she increasing sales significantly since Brian Morton was there. But what she did that was really interesting was she abolished? Artists used to have a lanyard around their neck, and could just show that later getting to shows no questions asked. She got rid of that. And they got so much criticism, which I thought was like,

Phil Rickaby
interestingly, that is the more like the that lanyard thing that is, first off, that there’ll be the only fringe that I know of it does that. Yeah, I know. I’m, like just being able to show up and get into a show for free that takes the control over how many comps I’m offering out of my hand. Right? Yeah, so I definitely applaud and I can, number one, I understand why she would have taken flack for that. But it was a very necessary move.

Aaron Jan
Definitely. I don’t know I wouldn’t want to do constant. It’s a strategic thing. Like when I’m looking at the festival, it’s like oh, shit, I have a noon matinee on on a Wednesday, I’m sorry, anything of the day that sucks. A hump day matinee, that’s when de la erson for free. But I think like, especially with Hamilton, something that really bothered me was that like I always make a habit of paying for shows right? It’s just it’s just a luxury half because I I have to be able to do that. And I understand a lot of people are in that funny situation. But I think that like there because I know I know a lot of people in the city who will not see shows less again for free they will refuse to see those of us to get for free and I know that like that and my friend Michael Krause for dirty girl

Phil Rickaby
I didn’t get to it was it was first off it was a staircase which was a hike and if I’m trying to flyer exact line and this line and I could make the trip just a waste of time. It’s a long journey. Go on Yeah,

Aaron Jan
I don’t know. I guess my my resounding issue with the city and I understand people are calling it like a developing your capital, which is really exciting, is that there’s a culture of artists not paying for shows and not supporting each other’s work. Well I understand that’s a fringe thing. And I understand why that’s valuable and a fringe I find it does carry over to the rest of the year not the long game for free, but then they’ll become avid patrons of the theatre and also going back to the criticism the criticism right um, I do the fringe so I can make money that’s what I mean like the work the work is valuable and work is

Phil Rickaby
valuable but we all we do we do the fringe for two things get the work seen to do more work. Yes. And to make money.

Aaron Jan
Yeah, I want to at least break even Yeah, so my cast can survive. Yeah, that in the city for beer B for food.

Phil Rickaby
The The interesting thing that about those those like for me, I had a standing a standing five password cops at the door because the password, you find passwords in fringes. Oh, yeah, it’s Toronto doesn’t. Maybe they started to do it. Did you do it, but they didn’t for a while. And it was new for me when I went to Montreal, but every other friends I went to was doing it. And so I had a standing five standby cops. Yeah, that’s great. And but I said, if you want to be on the guest list, you asked me? Yeah, and I’ll put you on but it never had more than like three people interesting. But it was so I don’t I don’t mind. I want to know if you’re there. Yeah. Might if you use one of the standby copies, because I firmly believe that we sell each other. Yeah. And so I mean, I don’t care I my last show, I still had comps because I maybe they can’t sell me but I saw your show on your comp you’re coming to my show. That’s, that’s just how it works. But I mean, from what I can see, I mean, as somebody who is kind of an interloper and vitriol, but and I only spent fringe there and when I talked to a lot of people, and it’s that whole burgeoning and growing theatre scene. Yeah. Where it is. It’s an adolescent scene and it is it is growing and the things that it needs are I mean, number one, there needs to be some actual criticism. Yeah. If and when that criticism starts, then the cream will rise. Yeah. And people will be challenged in a way that they maybe aren’t. But the one thing that I will say is that my fringe experience in Hamilton was close to my Montreal experience terms in terms of warmth. Yeah. In terms of the fringe family in terms of a bunch of things. So I have to say that it was a really good experience a little things that I am saying about fringe as or Hamilton as its quote, unquote, needs, I think are kind of undeniable. But they are the product of a new a new scene. Yeah, like becoming what it needs to be.

Aaron Jan
Yeah. It’s interesting because I think like a lot of factors happening this year that really helped it last year was kind of a bitter angry year for the fringe cuz apana mania, there was a fucking heatwave that passed through the city where

Phil Rickaby
the heat wave again, like our last weekend, the I think it was the Friday the Thursday or Friday was so hot, I felt like the audience’s suffered. Yeah. Oh, like on your sales. Like, I thought that my sales dropped shed a little bit. But I mean, you can’t fight the weather. No Panamanian would have been. Now it was Panamanian stuff that was going on in Hamilton

Aaron Jan
there was throwing in Hamilton. Oh, yeah. So and it was tricky, because like, I found also like, our sales in general were very strong last year. Whereas like, 2014, everyone was selling incredibly well. And this year, everyone, everyone seemed most people seem to be doing incredibly well.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, we did we did, we did all right. I mean, there were only a few shows that sold out. And from what I can tell the shows that sold out for the most part were local shows. But that is

Aaron Jan
not unusual in a fringe scene, of course. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, if you look, if you look at the fringe cultures in different places, the.

In Toronto, yeah, the audience is more interested in people that come from here, totally. And so those are the shows that are going to sell it because we have names that we look to. There are other shows that will catch on after time. Sure. But for that first weekend, a local show is going to sell out over definitely later one. So it’s the same sort of thing. And Hamilton the shows that sold out were by locals who’ve been working there for

Aaron Jan
years. Yeah, I found I had an advantage when I used to theatre in Hamilton because I was a local and have a greater advantage when the cast was local. When I was bringing over a cast, like we wouldn’t sell as well.

Phil Rickaby
The other thing is that I did watch people I stayed in Hamilton for the for the whole festival, because I firmly believe that if you’re going to be a part of a fringe be a part of that. Definitely. Yeah. And there were people who who sort of would come in for their show, perform their show,

Aaron Jan
and then go back there’s no Why would you do that? That’s like antithetical to the nature of the fringe or a festival.

Phil Rickaby
It was I mean, it could be but it depends on what’s important to you. If just doing the work is important to you, then that’s that that’s enough but if you are not seeing now first of all, Hamilton is a place that wants you to love it. Yeah. So in order to love it, it has to see you loving it so and that’s just the city right yes the city government gotta go you know you the city wants is knows what it’s becoming. Yeah, what it wants to become and wants to be that if you just roll in you’re not giving a shit about the city. Yeah, if all you care about is just doing your show. That’s fine. But you have to talk to people about your show you only seen talking about your show and I think that helps if you are out there being seen being a part of it. Like just to show up I think that hurts Yeah, I think that hurts you as somebody promoting your show because people see that you’re not

Aaron Jan
they don’t fuck yeah, yeah to see 30 shows effort.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, I go hard. Oh, I

Aaron Jan
go really fucking hard to see

Phil Rickaby
this was this year was my first ever solo performance.

Aaron Jan
I heard it was so solid. I’m sorry.

Phil Rickaby
I so the first few days I just had to get through my show. Yeah, the first day I thought I’m going to see a show maybe two hours before but I was freaking out so much. It’s what I couldn’t because I throw up or something.

Aaron Jan
It’s like a ritual thing. I know like I had two shows in the Toronto friends this year until they opened it couldn’t see any actually opened I was like yes I’m seeing show it’s so fast and the cheering on me okay, and rolling in a bed in a basement and Kensington Market Geez So to finally get it rolling Hamilton got fucking torn apart no fucking hated it did pretty much the same show in this city. People loved it and I sold

Phil Rickaby
you know, the funny thing is, is that you know, I there are people I know who tour every year yeah. And they will take a show. They will go in from Montreal and fucking love it and bring it to Toronto and they’ll fucking love it and they’ll take it to Winnipeg, and it will be crickets. Yeah, it’s weird. You don’t know because every city is different. Yeah. It’s rough though, when you walk in, you do two cities, you’re like this, we’ve got this and then you walk in and you’re like, I don’t got it. Don’t got

Aaron Jan
the fringe too. It’s kind of like, I mean, I, I’ve been watching a lot of Hamilton, that musical legacy, like your legacy is irrelevant and festivals, which I love, like, if you produce unless you’re like, I want to be invincible to ring companies. Well, I

Phil Rickaby
mean, let’s, I mean, look, if you are, if you have a history of proven work, if you are, if you’re Peter and Chris, if you are a generals, if you are, Nancy, Kenny, if you are Cameron more, you can go and you have this, this people know that you do good work, you can walk in, like Peter and Chris, that name that name, sell. Oh, yeah. But that’s a name that sells because of years and years and years of of excellence, right. And those people who sell that well have earned it. But it is. So those are the few people who can like go from city to city and do fine. But you cannot rest on your laurels. Actual rent will not let you

Aaron Jan
do that. And that’s what I love about the fest. Because it’s like, cuz every year, you’re just going in raw, essentially, I remember like, we want to invest in Hamilton friend back in 2012. We were like, Oh, we’re great. And then we went to Toronto and got killed in the next year went to Hamilton. And with that show, also, we got murdered. So such a good, humbling experience. This is a young artist, like we find success out of the gate, getting kicked down your second year is amazing, because then you’re like, No, I didn’t do this. And I’m paying for it. You’ve

Phil Rickaby
got to figure out in that sort of situation. Why? Yeah, exactly. Why did it not work this second time? Yeah. And then it becomes a matter of, you know, was it that like, for example, were you too confident when you started off? Like, were you like, here’s like, that’s, that’d be the first question. I asked. If I killed it, Hamilton, like come to Toronto, and I die Was I too? Was I too confident that I didn’t put enough in to that, that that start? Did I well gonna

Aaron Jan
get something about 2012 Looking back on that we’re jumping all over the place. That’s great. Yeah, um, it’s a I think that was a really lucky year for us because that was my first year doing the fringe. i This half dance, half physical theatre monologue show one half was dance. The other one was like, physical theory dialogue. And we were the best selling show in the festival. I was the youngest person ever when Mr. Fringe I was wiring, no one else’s wiring. It was an off year for the fringe because they at that time, they had just lost that relationship with theatre aquarium, okay. Something happened where they fucked it up. And it was like a down year for them. And we were a bunch of kids that nobody had heard about selling incredibly well. This was like, two years after I gotten kicked out of Ryerson Theatre School. So it was just like, that was such a good thing to happen. But it also made me get complacent for 2015, of course, because then it made me think that like, oh, anything I produce will be great. Which kills me that murder is a bit of course. And

Phil Rickaby
you know, the funny thing is, is there’s a sort of, it’s like, each fringe is its own thing. So you have to walk in. And you know what each year of a fringe is its own thing you don’t even know. But you sort of have to walk in to sort of like and get your bearings and just know, I got to put everything into this one. And you can at no time kick back and say I got this.

Aaron Jan
Yeah. And I think that’s something that I love about the fringe is it keeps you humble, and keeps you like gracious and keeps you a part of the community. I know that’s the one thing I regret in 2013 when I travelled in 2013 I didn’t fly or I didn’t move to ares battalion see anyone but when I was back in 2015, I was like, No, I’m going to meet as many people as possible. Because like, I don’t understand people sitting on the island people you talked about they go in either show their leave, they leave that that bothers me because it’s like It’s a festival you’re part of a fucking festival. We get as artists. We don’t get to do it for free. We get discounts for free. Yeah, I can buy discounted pass a Hamilton time You bet I’m gonna see 30 shows.

Phil Rickaby
It’s the interesting thing for me is that I’m losing my train of thought. That’s okay. As I start to talk, it’s there. Yeah, it’s gone, though. Whatever, whatever. So I don’t remember what I was gonna say. That’s super embarrassing. But all right. I think my thought was around. Now who knows? Who knows? Anyway, it’s, it’s it took a walk. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of in terms of oh you know what it there’s it was the fact that when you are in a fringe yes are not flyering you are not doing well unless you are

Aaron Jan
unless you are a show that has a lot of things going for it but can they didn’t fire but they sold it can’t

Phil Rickaby
baby can baby was one of those well, can baby was what first off the the winner of the Toronto fringe playwriting contest usually does well. Do you see it? I didn’t get to see. Jess Jess moss. I’ve known her for years and like kudos to her because everybody who sees that this show is ready for success. run right now.

Aaron Jan
So I’ve never seen a show that use the factory mainspace So well, because like I did a show there in 2015 I don’t know how to fucking use that. And like, I’ve never seen a show that could actually control that space so well because it’s it’s such a difficult space. It’s 44 feet wide. It’s 12 feet deep if you’re performing on a fashion show cat. Yes, yeah, yeah. And I don’t know who directed it, but whoever writes it, she’s amazing. Like

Phil Rickaby
the boat. You know, the idea of having to flyer is a democratising and humbling experience. The fact that if you do not go walk up to people, I’m talking about your show your show does definitely definitely, which is the thing that scares me the most because I’m shitty at that stuff. Oh, yeah. freaks me the fuck. What’s your pitch? Like? Oh, geez. Okay, so I would you know, after the kind of thing about my show, The pitch was it’s a story about an atheist who finds out that he’s been chosen by God to deliver his new his his new commandment. Boom gun once said, there’s, there’s two reactions. Yeah. Majority of people laugh. They’re my people. Yeah, common. A couple, a few people where all they hear is God and they hand it back. And

Aaron Jan
they’re like, Dad, you bet.

Phil Rickaby
I had that. Of course, there are also people that can tell you about my show. No. Okay, okay, we’re going, we’re going, that’s fine. Because

Aaron Jan
they just see like us. Wait a minute. You’re like, no, that’s not my demographic. I know with like, with silk bath this year. The people we approached the houses were minorities. Yeah. Because the show is about immigrants, convenient a series of reality game show competitions to get into a country. With rowing. I learned this the hard way in Hamilton. I approached millennials, right in lines. I was like, This is my demographic. I know who you are. But I think it’s always important to do that offering can pitch you and say no, is my deadline. So you have

Phil Rickaby
to Yeah, exactly. Because if you if you launch into your pitch before, they don’t turn, they will turn you out, they will just tune you out. They don’t you know, and I’ve seen people do that. You if you basically put people off with the first words out of your mouth, totally. They’re not coming to see your show doesn’t matter what you do doesn’t matter how good your pitch is. Yeah. But that’s the whole you cannot become too big for your britches. If you still have to walk up to people and tell them about your show.

Aaron Jan
Yeah, and that’s again, that’s my favourite the fringe, I guess. I don’t know. Like, those summerworks thing is not a flattering festival. And that that throws me off a little bit because then like, I feel it’s a little insider.

Phil Rickaby
I have not I have not been involved in a summer work season. Since it was a first come first serve fest.

Aaron Jan
It was response to the fringe during the 90s.

Phil Rickaby
When does you know when most a lot of fridges when they started they come they become first first come first serve Hamilton was until recently. Yes. And you know, when Edmonton started, it was a first come first Holy shit way back when Edmonton started. Like, that was a long time ago, but it was a thing. So a lot of friends do that at the beginning until they have enough that they can do the lottery. Yeah, but that’s why haven’t really been involved in a summer work since that. And we still fired back then. So I don’t know what the culture of some works is right now.

Aaron Jan
And maybe like, I don’t know, maybe it’s just something that isn’t. Maybe that’s something that’s like, that’s great. And I just I like a little scrappy the fridges and that’s what always excites me. I think they called it it’s Christmas in

Phil Rickaby
the summer. Oh, like I mean, I know so many people that their response to fringe This is my Christmas this is this is my this is this is my I get to go out and I get to see stuff. All of my all of the people in theatre in Toronto and indie theatre are bringing me gifts, right, you know,

Aaron Jan
and it’s it’s really exciting because it’s like, you get to meet people. You talk about your show. Everyone’s really accessible. I just find that like, you can have a conversation with anyone they want to talk to you because they want to find out what’s good. Yeah, my favourite part is discovering shows. Yeah, like, like I took a chance on the show this year in Toronto called false start, which is about two miscarriages football cup. I was like, okay, whatever. And I was blown away. And I hate St. Glads. Right. And I was there and I was like, this is the best thing. I’ve seen all festival

Phil Rickaby
this and most people hate playing St. Glads merely because it’s a refrigerator. Oh yeah. My lens or God sightlines you terrible. But the fact that they give out blankets when you go Yeah, it’s like, it was like Okay, so this is going to I’m going to wrap myself up here. The other thing that’s that’s always fun about about fringe is if you get to take it to different cities, like you’ve gone

Aaron Jan
to Toronto, I want to do an event you’re gonna think

Phil Rickaby
okay, okay, like, there’s like night and day. Because Winnipeg second biggest in Canada. Oh, Edmonton is the biggest, Toronto’s third right? Maybe third or fourth? It’s the top five but the jump between Toronto and Winnipeg is humongous. Winnipeg, everybody knows about French it doesn’t matter does not matter who you’re talking to. Everybody knows about fringe the downtown core becomes fringe. So the Financial District becomes fringe and there are buskers and there is a little market this surrounded, there’s a stage and beer tents. Although the artists don’t really go to the beer tents except to fire the artists go to a bar called the king’s head, which is where that’s the place to go. And it basically this area everybody goes to and everybody knows about friends and everybody’s going to see shows. Yeah. So huge, supermassive until you until you get to Edmonton, which is exponentially larger than those two because it is the as far as Canada is concerned, it is the granddaddy it may be the oldest in North America. And it is 1000s of people like on a Friday night on the first Friday night. It is shoulder to shoulder people in the fringe area. It is so massive, but there are people who go to Edmonton fringe, and they go for the food trucks and they go into the buskers and they go for the beer tents. And they do not realise that there’s theatre component. Your Richard told me that. Yeah. It’s an amazing, strange, wonderful thing.

Aaron Jan
Yeah. I’m I’m always interested in other countries theatre seems I mean, like, I’m kind of wary of hearings, I want to make sure that like I can sell in a city this year, we were really fortunate, like so bad. Really, really took off. And we were like, what? We were so surprised I never I’d never do well on this. However,

Phil Rickaby
I would say if you’re thinking about touring to another city, I would say this to you. And I would say this to anybody, of course, is that you have to be tireless in your promotion, if you are not from there. Yeah. The example I always point to his generals. If you’ve ever seen generals at a Fringe Festival, you if you were to follow him around, you would watch him be nonstop as he goes from venue to venue to venue, talks to every person in a line goes to the fringe 10 talks to every person in that he can, and he does not stop. And that is how he sells his shows. And you have to figure out, for example, if you go to Montreal, you will find out that there is no line, people roll up just as the show is about to start, they walk in and go to the show. So you have to get them as they come out. Yeah, if you’re a smart artists, you get a password for the show from another artist, you sit at the back. And as soon as the show is over, you dash outside. And as they’re coming out, you’re like pitching yourself. But that’s the Montreal thing. And then you know, every other a lot of other fringes do lines. But Edmonton people don’t line up at the venue because they don’t sell tickets at the venue. Or you either buy your tickets online, or they have ticket kiosks. And so it becomes really important that you were in the fringe area flyering everybody, yeah. Because if they’re in the line for the ticket kiosk, it’s too late. They already know what they want to get. You can’t fly a lineup because people will you can’t play our lineup, but they are not. They’re lining up to get in and up lining up to buy tickets. So they’re basically just going to show up and go in. In fact, the friends volunteers leave basically when the show starts so interesting. So you don’t find through an old lineup for tickets because they’re all purchased in advance. And you can become one of those people who becomes obsessed with watching your ticket sales each day. Oh, yeah, because Edmonton is a real time system. So you can walk in and say what’s right people will sit there and go refresh,

Aaron Jan
refresh. Oh,

Phil Rickaby
yeah. Like, yeah, yeah. Which totally changes because I watched people who had solid shows, in, say, Winnipeg, and even Calgary, which is a very small fringe, go to Edmonton and to become this obsessive mess of how I sold him. You know, that sort of thing. When really, I know it can. It’s tempting. But if you haven’t Get the fuck out there and talk to people, because talking to people works to talk to people works. Yeah. What is it terms of of your theatre background? When did you decide? Or when did you know that theatre was something that you wanted to do?

Aaron Jan
Okay, a bit of a long story,

Phil Rickaby
but we’ll we’ve got time. Good. Good. I

Aaron Jan
got last time until 8pm. Well,

Phil Rickaby
it’s an hour long podcast. Okay.

Aaron Jan
Like this is gonna be seven hours. Yeah. I think the main thing was I actually took Ryerson Theatre School because I thought I want to be an actor and before that before that, no, I didn’t I didn’t know until I do want to be an actor. Um, I guess I just did plays at Sears and we want to walk ins and I did drama cam when I was like a kid. But the big thing that really changed in me was and that really made me want to do it again was a fugitive Ryerson and I fell in love with this dancer at Ryerson.

Phil Rickaby
Madeline lives as as one does in your theatre school. There’s a dance programme.

Aaron Jan
Yeah. And we were both at the bottom of our classes. And like, she left my writing and she told me to write her a monologue today. So I wrote her a monologue a day for a while. And then I remember I’d written this one while I didn’t send her how much he really cared about her. My aunt had died the last weekend and I came out to drink and I was talking to her. And we were just talking shooting the shit and she mentioned that like she was still getting back to the kitchen with the programme she just dropped out like I I did. And I was like, no, no, that was wasted at this point. I was like, no, no, I got I got this writing. I got this writing I wrote you. So I gave her this model and delivered it to her. And I was like, oh, fuck, I fucked up a friendship. Because like, if I got, um, but then she started dancing. And I was like, What the fuck? And then she started dancing again after after twice. And she told me that that was the first time she had dancers coming to theatre school. And my reading had made her do that. That was the point where I was like, Okay, I’m not an actor. I know that. My writing can do stuff, right? My work can make people do stuff they can give people inspiration, hopes and dreams. Have you written before that? Yes. Okay. So your Drama Festival I, I just I love it. I was I used to write novels in my basement when I was like six or seven.

Phil Rickaby
Do you remember what your first the first time that you saw theatre?

Aaron Jan
Yeah, it was a little play in in a library called lion, which was one. Yeah. And I remember I was shouting at the stage. Because like, I knew how to book when I was like, You’re stupid. No. And I got in so much trouble that day. But like, I think that’s kind of what I demand in my theatre now. And I kind of when I when I watched theatre, I kind of want that kid in me yelling, no stop, or no do that. Yeah. And when he doesn’t judge me on board, but like, that’s, that was my first real experience. I remember because I was so embarrassed when I left them. I was like, You can’t do that. I was like, I wanna I wanna, I wanna I want the funny thing is that

Phil Rickaby
really smart children’s theatre will capitalise on the child’s need. Yeah, dissipate. Right? If you expect kids to just sit there and watch a thing. Yeah, they are not going to do that. No, they are too honest for that.

Aaron Jan
Exactly. And I think that’s, that’s one of the things I’ll really I really remember just that experience of feeling someone’s shame as the theatre. kind of exciting that, like, I could do that. I think the theatre that excites me is that does that to me, makes me want to go. Like when I saw butcher last year, I was like, every every scene, I was like, no, stop. But it couldn’t. Right. Like that’s that feeling of like, grossest. In your stomach. You want to do something like when a kid’s name not Eustace, the kid who the White Witch kid, the kid? And then yeah, like, Am I no, no, no, don’t do that, though. Your family is more important than the like, these these Turkish delights. And that was something that like, I don’t know that really, I mean, yet. I haven’t really thought of that till now. But that’s kind of like, it’s kind of like the your philosophy when I make theatre, it’s like, I want to give that feeling to an audience of like, no, or Yes. Yeah. And if you do that, to me, it’s just I don’t

Phil Rickaby
think it’s an audience. Like, the worst thing is a complacent audience, right. We’re seeing is an audience that is sitting back and, well, if they’re sitting back, they’re complacent audience like they’re not being challenged and there’s nothing that’s really exciting them, you know, it’s nice theatre and fuck nice theatre, because theatre shouldn’t be nice. Yeah, you know, it should challenge I did. And, you know, I’m sure that if you’ve talked with Richard bone, he’s mentioned Keystone Thea?

Aaron Jan
I saw gold rush. Oh, fuck. Okay, so you’re on the show? Yeah, you are on this. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
People People don’t usually it because I have a beard. Normally people are like, they don’t see it. And then all of a sudden the penny will drop. But like that, when we came up with doing this silent film style on stage, yeah. The audience actually is in like, you can’t be a lazy audience, right? Because you have to pay attention. Yeah. And now, of course, there’s also the downside is that sometimes the audience forgets that they are allowed to laugh because we are being silent, but that’s okay. Because they’re still enjoying it. But you’ll find the audience leaning forward. Right, you know, and, you know, sort of, interestingly, with with the commandment, which was the one that just did, the, it’s not about the commandment. Yeah, it turns at a certain point. And it is like, it is a story. It’s like a mystery, that tells a story, and then it like, punches the audience in the gut, near the end, because I built something up, but I don’t tell them about it. People will say, I didn’t know it was gonna punch me in the gut like that. And I’m like, because because I didn’t tell you. Because otherwise, if I did, wouldn’t punch you in the gut, right? wouldn’t affect you. If I said, Oh, yeah. And it gets serious because this, you know, you’ve got to draw people in with whatever, whatever you can.

Aaron Jan
And the best part too, is like, at least as a director, watching a show, win or lose their audience is fascinating. That’s like, yeah, I remember like I did an apprenticeship with Luke Brown at the Aquarius two years ago, which really helped me as a director. He would always tell me because I used to sit like there was like, no Erector Set in the back. Oh, yeah. The worst sightlines and just watch how your audience breathe. Oh, absolutely. And like, again, it’s one of those obvious things like you’re lying the wishes of the wardrobe. That like I never realised till then, and it was just like, yeah, yeah,

Phil Rickaby
yeah. Because you’re the audience like, actually, you know, I’ve been involved with like, you know, we’re doing a reading of this new script. Yeah, I guess we have to do a q&a after. But everybody hates doing the q&a. And the writer hates doing a q&a, because he already knows what he needs to know, because actually told him, but we have to do this q&a. And so if you don’t ask the right questions to the audience, everybody just kind of tell you how they would have wrote it. It was just the worst. Yeah. But I mean, the audience tells you what you need to know totally every time. And if you’re able to watch them, and you know, I, with the commandment, I went from not being able to watch the like to look at the audience at first performance. I looked around a lot of people, you’re also in Mills, right? Oh, yeah. It was the mills. Yeah, that’s

Unknown Speaker
a tricky face. Oh, I

Phil Rickaby
loved it. It was perfect for what I was doing. But so I had to look around people in that front row did not get anything from me, but by my third performance, it was like, I’m looking at this person and this person and this person. And you I know your eyes are there. Like I was desperate for the people to like, make a comment, make contact with them. And it was amazing to be able to do

Unknown Speaker
so. Totally. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
So you always always been writing in some ways. And then did you and you said, Did you can you use two terms about your Ryerson experience? You’ve said, dropped out kicked out a bit above.

Aaron Jan
Okay, that was first time in my year, I think kicked out. Because technically, I dropped out when they told me pretty much that you won’t stand a chance that second semester. And that that really fucks with me, because like, I don’t know, I’m a millennial. And I’m told them great. Yes. So but that was such a valuable experience for me, because it made me really hungry to do things I got kicked out on on after I know that I’m thinking too much on stage. And like, you can’t I mean, you need to think on stage. But you can’t be thinking about things that aren’t No. And that’s my problem on stage. Best Director that’s like, I have night terrors when we’re going to show like I’m working on right now. Like I’m blocking right now. And yeah, I think Ryerson was good because it pushed me toward that idea of like, No, you’re a maker. And also, like, I really valued the training I did get yeah, like I, the stuff I did in the zone of silence class really taught me about how scenes work.

Phil Rickaby
zone of silence is one of those things that has been growing. And yet there’s a lot of people who don’t who don’t know it, and who don’t. Or if you were to present be presented like I would love to go back and do zone of silence from the beginning right now. Yeah, but it’s because I know what it does. If you started I don’t know who taught you don’t there’s no silence, but I was taught by Peter Wilde who was the head of acting at George Brown at the time,

Aaron Jan
he passed on top of Jennifer Whitmore, who was kind of a stamp standby. Yeah, but yeah, Peter taught. You’re literally retired the year before I got ya.

Phil Rickaby
And Joan of silence. One of the things about the zone of silence is that you don’t tell like you don’t explain what it is that you’re going to. You have to figure it out as you go. So of course right now, now, I would do it again, because I could fucking kill that thing. Yeah, but I already know what the end result is. Totally. So I the experience won’t be the same. Yeah. It’s one of those zone assignments is one of those really awesome. Tools, especially early on? It’ll teach

Aaron Jan
you a lot. Definitely. Yeah, I loved I mean, I was I was terrible. I was fucking terrible at zone. Yeah. Like, I loved it. I got so much out of it. Yeah. Well,

Phil Rickaby
I mean, we all are all terrible at it. Yeah. That’s part of what it is. Eventually, a few people start to excel at it. But we’re all fucking terrible. Because we’re all just starting out going like, what am I supposed to do? Yeah. And the end when the answer is nothing, you’re like, how do I do that? Yeah. So leaving Theatre School. I mean, there’s two ways that people can react to that. I’ve seen both people leave Theatre School in that basically asked to leave slash kicked out. Yeah, that’s happened at most theatre schools. Totally. And you can either leave and feel like, well, I guess I’m not doing theatre or you can leave with more resolve to solidify and figure out what it is that you want to do.

Aaron Jan
It was a bit of both for me, because like, I remember, on one half, I, I was drinking with high school students, which was really sad. But the other half I was like, no, no, I’m going to work. I’m going to work. I’m going to work I got, I remember, but it was really sad too. Because until I got a company started in the summer, which did pretty well, but until then, it was just like, I was writing this play that I didn’t know I was gonna get produced. And I would lie to my family about the show I was doing in Toronto, so I go back and drink with my Ryerson friends. It was like really parasitic, but also made me realise what nothing felt like. Like what it felt like to not be in it and not be constantly working on projects. Yeah. So since then, like I’ve never not been working. Like yeah, we did this. We did this emerging artist festival in Hamilton little community theatre thing. We sold out off Three of our nights, we were no unknown again, we won Best to fringe in our first year in Hamilton. And if he’s a farmer that went on, but it was just like that, that six month period, from January to June, my dad was locked in it. My dad was still worker, he was locked in at work. So it was a really hard time for my mom. And I wasn’t working. I was kind of depressing. And I was drinking and like, making out with like, 15 year olds at parties. Like I was disgusting. But it taught me what it was like to do nothing and make me hungry. So like when people ask me, Aaron, you’re doing why are you working so much? And like, because I know what it’s like to not Yeah, and but yeah, thank you. Jenna. Ryerson was probably the best and worst thing

Phil Rickaby
that’s ever happened. Yeah, well, I mean, right now you can look back at what it’s given you but at the time, it must have been pretty, pretty god. I remember

Aaron Jan
I was I was dragging this. This garbage bag full of my clothes. I didn’t know what to pack a suitcase. I was like 18 through Yun and done Das, and it was like slushing bullshit on me. And I remember thinking as I drag it to the Union Station, cuz I didn’t have enough money, or presto, at the time to get to the station. I was like, I am never going to be this. Ill prepared. Yeah, again. Yeah. And it was just so it was so good. I think everyone needs to fail very hard, early in their career repeatedly.

Phil Rickaby
I think that I mean, failure teaches you a lot. Definitely. You know, I remember the first play, in fact, full circle back to summerworks. Fight that I ever wrote. We produced at summerworks when it was still a first come first come first served. Yeah. I no longer have the script. It is better that way. Oh, no. The one review that I got? Yeah, I think it was the star said that the play had the impact of a feather duster. So it’s like, and you know, we laughed about that. But you know what it hurt? It was right. It was not good. So, and I mean, it hurt it stung. And I didn’t write for a long time after that. But, you know, I learned from for I learned a lot. You know, you learn that. Yeah, you learn from failure. And

Aaron Jan
that’s the best thing like even artists only find success. And they feel for the first time in seven years. It’s just like, Yeah,

Phil Rickaby
fuck, it’s actually better to fail early on than it is to fail later. But yeah, you know, it’s better. It’s better to fail when you’re young. And you don’t mind sleeping on couches and stuff like that. Yeah. When you’re a lot older, but it’s still always valuable to me. You know, I think that’s one of the things that is amazing about a Fringe Festival is that that whole wildcard nature that whole I don’t know if this is going to work here. Which can keep you on your toes because otherwise if you’re not doing that you can you can really kind of become complacent, you know? And not be sure what’s going to like, you really just sort of like rest on your laurels a little motto, you know. So what is it what are you working on these days? I mean, aside from going to see like 30 shows tomorrow, which is a bit which has been much

Aaron Jan
crazy. Yeah, I’m, I’m, well I’m we’re coming fulfilment incubator. We’re producing eight plays in eight months. We’re on our fourth play coming out September. I’m directing the sixth show called Swan. And I wrote it and I’m also producing a show called tire swing in October, and I have a mystery product that I can’t talk about in January. But yeah, until January, I’m pretty booked solid. And I have to write another play for April. Cheese. And I’m also doing some factory. I’m Yeah, I have a mentorship which is great. So I can just like, figure out bounce ideas off. Nina,

Phil Rickaby
can I ask you about your your writing? Because you’re like, it seems like you’re writing very

Aaron Jan
quickly. Yeah,

Phil Rickaby
I read a lot. Okay. No, it just like, just, I mean, it turns into deadlines you’re giving yourself as somebody who took eight years to write his solo show was different, though. I know. Yeah. It’s just like, Are you like when you finish something? Because there’s some people were finished and they’re like, yep, done, finished. Or do you revise

Aaron Jan
What’s your so what I do is I try to get a draft done. I put it to a read because I find like often or you can’t

Phil Rickaby
learn anything and if you don’t have anything to hear if you read it yourself, you’re not gonna learn anything if you don’t know the thing until actors speak those words. Yeah,

Aaron Jan
I have a dramaturg and we really shouldn’t lose the palace when Columbia for MFA dramaturgy, which is great. Yeah, and we just keep running it through. Some shows require a lot more other shows do not the one I’m working on right now was like to and done, which was our that never happens. And I’ll I’ll hear things when it’s done. And then I’ll go back. And he’s got you over it said the best dramaturg is the audience which I agree with. I don’t agree with um,

Phil Rickaby
I mean, I certainly I mean, I want to I want to make sure that I have dramaturg get before it goes in front of definitely. Yeah, but the audience will teach. I mean, a lot of times will teach you a lot. I mean, if something is not working, I mean, fuck, that’s when people do previews of new shows. Right? Yeah. And we don’t Do I mean one thing that I’ve you can over workshop stuff but I’ve noticed that in Canada, we’re not big on the workshop. We’re like, join done. We’re like, depends on like, what like

Aaron Jan
what circle you’re in? Yeah, I think that with with the whole indie unite thing I find it it’s very one done but like, yeah I had an apprenticeship with factory this year and like just seeing their workshopping process. Yeah. Because it’s like a different world for, for I think artists of colour. Yeah. Um, which I, which I’m discovering I’m discovering that I’m not wait.

Phil Rickaby
This is this is this is a hard thing to realise sometimes it is. But I

Aaron Jan
think it’s something that like that I’ve been discovering recently in the past year, and some even discovering to essentially have a people of colour in their work. Is that just I think we’re fu Jen especially that like they were based on development. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But like I know Kassandra can go done Katsina and get a show in 10 days. Oh, Kent

Phil Rickaby
Sandler also has I mean, you can’t Sandler has Tom McGee, who is one of the fucking best geometers

Aaron Jan
you will talk about working with rowing. He’s

Phil Rickaby
great. He’s like, he’s really good. And she’s got Daniel Paget in her in her core. Totally. Yeah. Like, so she has it. She has a team of people who are helping her to make, I mean, not to diminish her talent, because they are incredible. Yeah. But you know, she it’s not like she’s working in a vacuum she’s working with, with Dell. So yeah, you know, but the whole, like development is an important part of any kind of profitably. And

Aaron Jan
I think that’s something that like, I don’t know, I guess I guess the kind of vote that we don’t do the workshop. I don’t know. I, I’ve always thought about a workshop is a part of the process. Yeah. So yeah, it’s, it’s interest is interesting to me. The reason why I set deadlines so quickly is it forces me to write right? I’m like a friends. I’m gonna finish this play in 30 days, they’re like, Okay, we’ll do the reading. And then it’s like, oh, shit, these people booked off time. Yeah, it’s kind of like I tricked myself into working. Because I’m

Phil Rickaby
like, Oh, ha, you know, I mean, I’m a believer in in deadlines, because I’m always writing. Yeah, I’m always writing. It’s just a matter of sometimes. You know, I don’t have a deadline. Yeah, I don’t have to finish this thing. Like, it’s like, it’s like, Oh, if I’m always writing, you know, I’ll get to that eventually. But if there’s a deadline that says on this date of things gonna happen yes, then I gotta fucking write it. Yeah, but if I did, but I don’t I don’t have this I don’t have a problem with with not having ideas and not writing just have a problem finishing. But definitely that like the deadline will bring will bring well a lot of desperate

Aaron Jan
on my deadline. I tell them the show is you’re gonna get full draft. And even then, like I remember for swollen I was like, a whole draft on January 2, and on January 1, I was like, oh, bah, bah, bah. Yeah. But like, yeah, having a gun to your head and ignore everything works like this. I know. Like, my budget five years to finish. You took eight years you said for,

Phil Rickaby
for that particular play. There’s other stuff that I’ve written that’s been finished quicker. Yeah. But this particular play? It was it was very difficult. So I mean, every play takes every place different amount of time.

Aaron Jan
It’s different. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I know, I can only write when nobody’s in the house. And I can’t write when I direct like the fact that I’m doing blocking right now means I won’t be writing until this show is done. Right. And the mystery product in January is

Phil Rickaby
that I thought that when I was in Hamilton, I wouldn’t be able to write when I was doing it. I said okay, I’m gonna bring no books No, and then I sat down I had like, the after the first weekend are like, it’s Monday, nothing happens till five o’clock. So I’m gonna write and I sat down I was like, my head is far too inside. Write this play. I can’t do something else and

Aaron Jan
you’re in the fucking planner. Like I don’t I don’t know how you guys do that. Like, writer director. I can’t do it. But actions are actually seen more different.

Phil Rickaby
Actor, actor, actor and writer. What is one of the world well, I mean, the transition from writer to actor was was a really difficult one. Yeah, because you know people like almost Geez, you wrote the play and get those guesses lines are gonna be really easy to easy to learn. No, no, because cuz it’s different part of the brain. I like suddenly as soon as I become an actor, like doesn’t matter that I wrote it No, remember writing those words? What the fuck does that mean?

Aaron Jan
Right? Because you have to like kind of exile the writer for a while Oh yeah. And just having like sit and like go ice fishing and

Phil Rickaby
like a fish. It wasn’t until I had the thing I learned that I could let the writer come back into the room yeah once in a while so that we could like tweak some language here and then but until I had the until I learned it, it was like no brighter out you go because this is this is actor time. Totally. Yeah. So you’ve got all the all these projects on the go? Yeah. Which was the first one that’s coming up.

Aaron Jan
I’m producing an I’m not producing a show. Oh my my call. We were a four person producing raw matters. They’re doing a show. In September. Then I’m producing tire swing, which is a queer ghost stories and Clinton. I’m directing. At I wrote Swan which is November, which is a detective story enhanced and handled it online. Even though I went

Phil Rickaby
where did these things happen? Where did Just please get performed.

Aaron Jan
Swan is going to be at to your packet pass by backspace. The others of our season are performed in a basement and you didn’t I wouldn’t abandon nightclub former club 56 Okay, thank you sexy Kensington. Is that

Phil Rickaby
is that like an actual performance base for you know?

Aaron Jan
The guy just recently renovated we have a good relationship with the owner. And yeah, I just I really enjoy doing theatre not theatre spaces, like even with a TPM back like I’m doing the best I can to not make it a theatre space. Just because I didn’t know I’m a Disney World guy. I’ve been to Disney World five times. Yeah. And it’s just that like, things I love about Disney is their sight lines. Like you want places and the the decoration keeps going. In fact, when you look at the Hollywood Tower of Terror, it’s designed in a way that if you watch it from Morocco, and Epcot it looks like as part of the Moroccan skyline. Ah, so almost like there’s an immersive level. And I think that’s a big foreign of the part again all over the boards are on the part of my theatre training was

Phil Rickaby
25 times you can fucking learn a lot from Walt Disney. Oh my god, like the the learn about presentation and you can learn about sightlines you can learn about misdirection, you can learn about how everything

Aaron Jan
they pump fake bread scents through the streets of Main Street USA. So you will buy their bread. Yeah, like I was like, That’s so smart. The way when a parade happens to keep the magic for kids. Windows open on the second floor of Main Street, USA. And there were speakers hidden in these rooms. Like I’m obsessed with Disney because it’s like, to me Disney World is like the keystone of immersive theatre. Yeah. Because there’s it’s so high tech. There’s so many tricks and gadgets. Yeah, but you’re walking through things and you’re walking people perform. You’re watching like they have a whole underground network so Latin and get a smoke break backstage. That can only be Aladdin. Yeah. Um, I think I think just nice about them. But

Phil Rickaby
also, I mean that that whole underground thing is so that nobody ever sees a costume character walking to where they need to go to

Aaron Jan
appear. Yeah. And one of those universal ones, the Harry Potter world, which is great. I noticed that like, once I was in line, and that was in Finland. I’m like, Oh, this is just a soundstage. Yeah, but yeah, I really like Disney. I mean, it’s an

Phil Rickaby
immersive theatre, because that makes me think there was a show at Hamilton. This year. And you know, I’ve raved about this show. Pretty much everybody and my ex

Aaron Jan
girlfriend did that. And I it’s sneaky sneaky. Yeah. Yeah, here

Phil Rickaby
we paste. And it was it was brilliant. Because it was immersive. And it was from, like, all over the place. And it was like, like, there was this simple theatre magic that just sort of happened in this room. And it was it was amazing. He

Aaron Jan
was really cool theatre maker because she’s like, she’s been around a lot like she went to Edinburgh got slayed in Edinburgh, just like one at night. But she’s got to see all this fucking theatre. She went to Prague for the quadrennial she’s a self essentially like a self made designer. She didn’t. She wasn’t in the production stream at York, but her work was so solid, that like they made her design show. Yeah, like Haley’s a genius.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, she’s like, the show that she that she presented was like one of the best things I’ve ever seen. Yeah, blew my mind is as far as far as fringe. And I’m like, this is something that that, you know, like, keep doing this because

Aaron Jan
it is totally open. But again, failure taught her a lot.

Phil Rickaby
Well, failure teaches like you can never fail, you never learn again. And back to full circle. That’s another thing. What criticism is song? Yeah. And that if you you know, if you don’t get good criticism, you don’t, you’re never going to grow because nobody will ever tell you what is, quote unquote, wrong with your show?

Aaron Jan
Yeah, I think that’s something that like, I mean, that’s going that Hamilton is not just the spec, it’s I think that you need strong reviewers, the view magazine, they need reviewers, that national theatre background, who have a history of either theatre practice or theatre criticism, I really

Phil Rickaby
think that that the whole like the Hamilton need for criticism, it can’t happen with one publication, like it cannot be one publication or one reviewer. Because, quite frankly, if there’s one guy who starts giving bad reviews and a bunch of theatre, independent theatre guys are gonna be like, well, they don’t get to come to my show anymore. Yeah, but I mean, really, if if you can get a good review from everybody else, and this guy sits on your stuff, you probably don’t want him to come to your show. But then what you need is like a complete shift in the way the media works. Yeah. And where they bring everybody everybody brings in reviewers that can be strong and can give, like, good criticism.

Aaron Jan
So the question the follow up question is because I’ve been certainly handled and we’ve talked with this for hours. How do you do that?

Phil Rickaby
Well, that is the question. How do you do that? Yeah. First off, again, if you look at the weekly paper, you bring in you bring in, you have to like basically bring a staff that knows Theatre, which is not that Right, right now, you need to bring a staff that can think critically about theatre even if they don’t. Right now, I think people are so worried and Hamilton about being boosters, people in Hamilton want to like artists, the new steel, and Hamilton, and everybody wants to make sure they’re building up the art. And it’s, it’s almost like, there’s a fear that if you shit on it, if you say that it’s bad, then the whole house of cards will fall down. And that and that, suddenly, it will be your fault that art is no longer than new steel, but instead, because you’re not going to ship over everything, because there is a lot of good work that’s happening there. Yeah, but there’s also a lot of work that needs work. Yeah.

Aaron Jan
Yeah, I think it’s interesting to seeing the fringe culture Ireland as it was ages ago, the French culture versus the culture the rest of the year. Like, I know, people who tried to have any productions outside of the prints are being held, they don’t sell

Phil Rickaby
stuff or barely sells. The thing is the thing is that the fringe is a particular thing. Because the advantage to fringe as far as an audience is concerned, number one, it’s only an hour number two, it’s only $10. Yeah, so sorry, plus the button. I mean, if you go to the Toronto fringe, you’re probably gonna buy, like pay $5 for the for the fucking button anyway, so. But if, like, you’re risking virtually nothing, I mean, even if you include the button, you’re gonna see one show $15. So what, yeah, it’s only an hour. So if it’s bad, in just an hour, right? But if you’re gonna make it like, I don’t know, a Saturday night or a Friday night, you’re gonna pay anywhere from 3040 $80 to go and see a show. You are not going to risk it.

Aaron Jan
Yeah. Well, my question then to follow up to is, what’s the NDC? In Hamilton? I don’t know. I’ve been doing theatre there for four or five years, I still don’t know. I think like, that’s, that was the thing that really frustrated me with the city. And maybe it’ll change because I think like rose and Michael are there. That maybe maybe it’ll change. But I think

Phil Rickaby
I do think that there are people who are making theatre there. And who are, you’ve got, you’ve got the pearl company, which is a great space, and you’ve got like, there are spaces that and then people who are making work. Yeah. And they’re making good work. And I think that if they continue to do so they’re going to build up the theatre scene outside of fringe because there are people who are, you know, they’re they’re putting stuff together and they’re making stuff happen. But again, this isn’t something that happens overnight. Whether or not it’s the mature maturation of the criticism, the theatre scene criticism, whether it’s the development of the indie theatre scene, removing itself from the amateur theatre scene, that’s the job. But you know, what, that’s something can only happen over time, and it can’t happen overnight. So, eventually, that separation will happen. And then there will be spaces to support that and there will be people who are who are like, I will go and see that work because it is exciting. And it is different. Because one of the things that every theatre is struggling with, is the ageing of their audience. Yeah, and how to get the new audience out. But there are some people who are doing some very good work such as the guys hit the guy who did dirty girl. Yeah. Michael

Aaron Jan
Michael crossfader.

Phil Rickaby
He’s like, he’s the work that he was doing was bringing Millennials out bringing bringing people out who wouldn’t normally go to see theatre Yeah, and so there it is possible to bring them to theatre and so really, the indie scene can do that in a way that the big professional scene cannot

Aaron Jan
well theatre Aquarius their audience, they’ve set it on record, like they’re in a perilous financial situation because their house is too big for their stage Yeah. So they have produced musicals that will sell to people with money of course they do and they’ve done their head work to do but I

Phil Rickaby
mean every like, if you are if you are not able to bring in Hamilton or Book of Mormon or or Matilda or whatever or once the you have to do specific shows that the people who already want to see theatre are going to see Yeah, because you because people will not bend over backwards to go and see the those shows they won’t scrape together what they need to make happen but the MDC can do something that the somebody like a theatre Aquarius can’t because they would be able to produce theatre that can take a bit more of a risk can be for people who don’t have all of that money,

Aaron Jan
I guess just have to do in the year in five years. I’m I’m still waiting. And that’s the thing that like that’s why I left the city

Phil Rickaby
but you know, the thing is that yes, you still waiting but there’s there’s there’s two sides to this. Yeah. You have five years in terms of the maturation of the theatre scene is nothing. Yeah. Five years in a city where there are some serious growing pains as far as that theatre community is because right now you’ve got Aquarius, and then you’ve got the amateur scene, which is developing into the It’s in the scene, but that’s still in process. The other side is that that you can, you can also just try to make it happen. Yeah, which not you that takes. Sometimes you need a break from trying to make the thing happen, you know, so maybe you know, and you’ll learn as you come to Toronto, you’ll learn and then maybe you go back or maybe you’re like, I don’t ever know, but you know, who knows what the future holds? And who really knows. I often think in terms of Hamilton, like it’s changing, and it’s changing fast. And it’s becoming, I think there’s going to come a time when the theatre scene in Toronto goes, How can we be that? Yeah, which is hard to believe right now. But I do think that it’s going to happen that the the theatre people in Toronto are going to be like, how do I want to go there?

Aaron Jan
Yeah. Well, like it’s cheaper there.

Phil Rickaby
For now. Oh, yeah. For now, Claire’s

Aaron Jan
There are loads there. Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting, for sure. I just, I think the community just got it. You have to get together and do stuff not to sit in circles and talk? Well, you do have to do stuff. And I think that’s, that’s the issue that I had with the city because I remember, I’m just wanting to better thing, getting a company scale and unique place in eight months, like 33 six P 31. P in New York. I was trying to get going Hamilton for two years. And everyone’s like, no one’s wait. And I was like, no, no, yeah. And it’s just that it’s just different mentality. But roses there, Rose Hopkins is there Michael was there. And I think those two alone shine some fucking colour. They’re like, because that’s, I was on a panel for diverse and we’re going way off the rails again. But like, and we’re all probably in time,

Phil Rickaby
a little bit, but I mean, it’s a podcast, who fucking cares? Yeah,

Aaron Jan
you come down. Yeah. It’s just that like, it’s like people are and it’s just like, that’s fine. But I was on a diversity panel, right. And it was the only person of colour. Well, you

Phil Rickaby
know, well, that’s like, you know, having a panel about gender equality, and it’s all it’s all dudes. But, I mean, I’m going like literally, I’m trying to think of where the people of colour were at Fringe this year.

Aaron Jan
I was there. And Hamilton French, Oh, Hamilton, French. They weren’t. Um, Julius Chou was in a little show there. Oh, there’s probably the closest LM more or more, but she didn’t write it well as stressors, colour text, is that just count? But yeah, see, it’s like, it’s tricky. And then But then you can’t?

Phil Rickaby
I mean, can you meant like, you could try to manufacture it? What would you have to like? Like, for example, if I’m writing something, maybe I write this as a role for a black actor, this is a role for an Asian actor. Yeah. Right. I do that. And then we have to hunt for that that person I don’t know there because my expense I know that there there has to be there. Is is are the people who are writing for fringe and creating for fringe and Hamilton, for the most part, I mean, there are exceptions, obviously, just not writing for those people that fit those people in Do they not feel welcome. And

Aaron Jan
well, I’ve seen going going back to say I just did a show with an all Asian cast that was Chinese spoken. In order to get people of colour out to auditions. You have to seek them out. Because when a person of colour reason audition call, they’ll know it’s not for them, right? Immediately. Like look at the fucking great wall movie. Fuck yeah, yeah. But like I think he says something in the arts that like makers have to be conscious of if you want a diverse cast, you can’t just put out a call you have to contact with like nearly Aquino. People like Marjorie chan de Philip Aiken go, where are these actors? And you mentioned them personally to come to your auditions. And they will show up. Like if they aren’t like albatrosses flying around, and they will show up, but you have to go the extra mile. Yeah, um, and I think I think that’s just something that like, it’s not an issue in Hamilton right now, because the scene is almost entirely Caucasian. But like, it’s an issue here.

Phil Rickaby
I think that like, I think that it’s a thing that probably shouldn’t be an issue. It should totally Oh, my God, because again, you’re only talking to a part of your audience, and you’re not talking to all of your potential on Yeah. Diversity is one of those things where no, I mean, I’m a privileged white male. So it’s, I often sometimes feel like a fraud when if I if I ever talk totally fine, because I think it’s important that we see more colour on the stage, because I think it’s important that our stages reflect what we see outside our doors. Yeah. But I have been guilty of not specifically writing a character and saying this is a black character, because I know that if I don’t do that, when it gets into artistic directors hand that it is highly likely that an artistic director is also a white, heterosexual male. Yeah, who’s going to see all of the characters that I wrote as white heterosexual?

Aaron Jan
Yeah, it’s but yeah, it’s it’s tricky. Like, I don’t really know how to solve that. Well, the way you saw that Your programme or ATS programme, more work from people of colour in the seats was more diverse and they can get through colorblind casting.

Phil Rickaby
It’s true. Now, here’s an interesting thing. Yes. Because there are ways that you can encourage certain things. The hat the Montreal fringe, for example, is 5050. English, French. Yes. And that is part of their mandate. They have their French programming, they have the English programme because it’s Quebec. You could as a as an organisation, if you’re a Fringe Festival, you could there are ways that you could that you could encourage diversity, Trump’s take the diversity, yes, exactly. Yeah. That you like, why not do that? Yeah, you can you can make that happen. I mean, that’s pretty new thing for the for the Toronto fringe. I think it’s three and three years old. That’s and that’s new, very new. That’s very new. So I mean, Hamilton is a few years behind other fringe totally. But there’s there are opportunities to lead.

Aaron Jan
Exactly. And I think that that’s something that like something that even though I might not be a fan of loving, smart works, most of the shows is here, diverse there.

Phil Rickaby
But then that is part of you have a curation curation. Curation says we want important plays. Yeah. With diverse cast. Yeah. Right. So of course, there’s more diversity because it is curated?

Aaron Jan
Well, I again, I don’t know how you saw the diversity.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, if you knew if I knew I’d still be there. If you knew you’d still be there, and you’d be making it happen. Yeah. Man, it’s, it’s hard. It’s hard. It’s hard. Like, there are no there aren’t

Aaron Jan
easy answers. If there are easy answers, like we will be rolling around in mud here.

Phil Rickaby
The answer is it will be done already. Exactly.

Aaron Jan
Yeah. So I think that’s like, that’s an interesting thing for me because one of my friends did a diversity report card infringe on one around and just saw all the other areas of colour and it was like even Toronto it was, it was rough, but I think especially with factory having their first successful season, ever since Ken got fired. And having actors of colour on stages. I think that will really change the game because you have a theatre run by a woman of colour and brown woman selling incredibly well. The show that sold the most of banana boys, all Asian cast the sold out their feeder for almost all their shows. That’s never happened. No longtime factory. Like what,

Phil Rickaby
you know, the interesting thing is and you know what? I mean? Yes, it’s, it’s, it’s one of those. Now, it’s a cultural touchstone. It’s about to go on TV.

Unknown Speaker
Kim’s convenience,

Phil Rickaby
was theatre that was presented and sold to an audience that had not seen itself on stage. Right. That’s so pepper. They went out and got people who don’t go to theatre to go to theatre. Because, yes, because it was a story they knew.

Aaron Jan
But they see that’s the thing. They did the extra step of outreach. Yes. So needless to say about this two years ago, and he mentioned how they hardly sell camps, like how do you sell it? And he was like, you know, we did do like, we didn’t fly or like, okay, because when we were in Congress, they went to Korean churches every Sunday, and said, We’re doing this show. And all Koreans are like, Oh, fuck, that’s about me. Yeah. Like, it’s all firing going back firing full circle. Again. It’s about going the extra step and seemed like we have.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, we’re seeing a boot camp, maybe not having to have an a fire. Kim’s convenience didn’t have to fire again at one playwriting contest. From day one, that play had a line that you couldn’t get in. They’ve done the work. I had to line up two hours before that show to get tickets to that show trending. So they went Broadway, right there. Yeah, they’re going to New York. They’re on TV. On TV. So again, again, that’s you can criticise Toronto for into a couple of things. And one of them is its constant seeking of the next Kim’s convenience the next Drowsy Chaperone to kink in my hair.

Aaron Jan
Yeah, um, but I don’t know I’m comfort again. Kim’s is like a comforting thing, which is nice. Manners. For Yeah, I. I’m excited. That’s the That’s, I think the biggest takeaway from all of this slagging in this podcast, I’m I’m really optimistic. Just for the future of POCs, the future of young people doing theatre in general. And I’m optimistic even for the city I just showed on Hamilton. I’m very optimistic for us. I think there are people there who are hungry. I keep telling my colleagues like, I want to go to Toronto. I’m like, No, you stay there. And he’s like, Yeah, because he’s dedicated saying that Sydney making things roses dedicated me and things of that city. And I think between those two and the new people, that alert is going to build the bathroom. Girls are coming back to Ross. And there’s such a good did you see do you see that? Yeah, I mean, I think need some dramaturgy, but like in general, I was really impressed by what they had made by themselves. Yeah,

Phil Rickaby
I mean, that’s the thing is they didn’t have a director didn’t have a director saying no, I know. I knew as soon as I said I was gonna blow your mind because they did that on their own. They’re just so clean. So if they had a director, they will make something. I mean, bathtub girls is an amazing thing solid. It’s really solid piece of a short. But I didn’t I didn’t mind that if you know where to find it everything you do and yeah, yeah. So it’s it’s like it was an amazing piece.

Aaron Jan
But like going back to Hamilton then that’s the energy the city needs because like you they were firing lovely people. So from at the end of the show, like talk to us in the lobby. Yeah, they showed up shows and read it on social media, like the city needs more people like those two girls, because they’re making work that’s edgy and ballsy. But they’re not pretentious about it. Yeah, they’re like, We know what our show is. But we’re here to have a good time. And like, fuck, like, to me, they are like they are the spirit that I wish I had when I was in Hamilton, as old man dancing was. I wish I was more like those two young girls. Yeah, but yeah, I think that like That’s the spirit. A lot of festivals need, like people very friendly making cutting edge work. Yes. All

Phil Rickaby
right. Yes, I think we will. I think I think a lot of people talk you know, or we don’t know. We will. We will stop there. That’s thank you so much. Thank you.