Deborah Shaw and David Agro

Deborah Shaw
Since graduating from Theatre Humber, Deborah has been involved in many productions in Toronto as an actor, stage manager and costumier. Creating and performing in her own work has been a particular joy. She was a founding member of Carpe Dinero (commedia dell’arte), as co-director, co-writer and performer. Deborah has also been the Entertainment Director for the Pirate Festival, and she debuted the role of Susan in the world premiere of the Samuel French Inc. Canadian Play Contest winner, A Year In The Death Of Eddie Jester, by T. Gregory Argall. Always expanding her performing interests, Deborah launched into bellydancing with Arabesque Academy, where she regularly performed as one of the Arabesque Earthshakers. She was also the costumier and backstage manager for Arabesque Canada under Artistic Director Yasmina Ramzy. Deborah recently created her own unique style of dance fusion in her show Raqs Macabre, for which she is the producer, writer, choreographer, costumier and dance artist. The Fringe Festival made it possible for her.—Deborah’s second completed playscript—to receive a full staging while other works and ideas have impatiently waited their turn.

zippysaidproductions.com
Instagram: hertheplay

David Agro
David and one-person plays have a history together. His professional debut performance, for Heresy 3 Productions at Brock Centre for the Arts, was as Andrei Vukhov in Judgement— the first Canadian production of Barry Collins’ harrowing full-length solo drama. David continued to develop his acting and directing skills at the Shaw and Stratford Festivals, where he had the immense good fortune of learning from many of his theatre heroes. A diverse range of experiences in the Toronto area eventually led to his most recent projects— adapting, directing and performing condensed solo versions of plays which have made a lasting impression on him, including Judgement, The Dresser, Bent, Hosanna and The Elephant Man. Exploring the possibilities in solo pieces has become a consuming interest. When presented with the opportunity to make his first foray into The Toronto Fringe Festival as dramaturg and director of Deborah Shaw’s original one-actor drama, David felt right at home being part of the company of two that breathed life into her. He recently presented a newly-revised version of his own one-person show, Bedrooms of the Nation.

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Transcript

[Phil Rickaby]
I’m Phil Rickaby and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years. But, I’ve realized that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada.

So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators you may have heard of, and indie artists you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy. If you value the work that I do on Stageworthy, please consider leaving a donation, either as a one-time thing or on a recurring monthly basis. Stageworthy is created entirely by me, and I give it to you free of charge, with no advertising or other sponsored messages.

Your continuing support helps me to cover the cost of producing and distributing the show. Just four people donating $5 a month would help me cover the cost of podcast hosting alone. Help me continue to bring you this podcast.

You can find a link to donate in the show notes, which you can find in your podcast app or at the website at stageworthy.ca. Now, on to the show. Deborah Shaw is the writer and performer of Her. David Agro is the director and dramaturg.

They both joined me to talk about the new production of Her, running at the Red Sandcastle Theatre from September 6th to 10th. In this conversation, we talk about the origins of the play, how this new incarnation has changed since the play’s premiere at the 2018 Toronto Fringe, and much more. Here’s our conversation.

Which one of you would like to tell me about Her?

[Deborah Shaw]
I will. So I had an idea one day, just sitting around, and it was a what if. What if, and it’s a very extreme what if, and the person I was with, he said, well, just write it.

I finally felt like writing it a couple of years later, and it just sort of took off. Basically, it’s about consequences. Every decision you make, there is a consequence, two days, ten days, a thousand days later.

But there is something. And that’s basically what this is about. It’s just set in a different time and a different person, of course.

[Phil Rickaby]
Could I ask what the original what if was?

[Deborah Shaw]
No. That’s fair, that’s fair. It’ll give away my story.

[Phil Rickaby]
I understand, I understand. So, now, you said that you felt like you could write it a few years later. What was that, how had the idea changed when you sat down to write it, or had it changed?

What was the evolution?

[Deborah Shaw]
It hadn’t changed at all. That original day, I sort of wrote a little bit of an outline, and then I just let it lie. And when I felt the impulse to write, it was time to write it, it just poured out.

I stopped writing to do a little bit of research, and then it just continued to almost write itself. And funny enough, David and I in rehearsal yesterday, as we finished the play and we were talking about it, I said, I had the ending before I had the beginning. Huh.

And so everything else just filled itself in, bit by bit, and then the story of David and I catching up.

[David Agro]
Yeah, that’s where her really, really took off, on a TTC bus. Well, tell me that story. Deborah, I think you should, because it was, yeah, you initiated the whole thing.

[Deborah Shaw]
Well, I was coming home from a play. Friends of mine were doing Measure for Measure in the theater we are doing our production in, at the Red Sand Castle, and I met David on the Sherbourne bus. And he was coming, I think he was coming from the opera perhaps, but David was, we were both working at the University of Toronto at the time, and he was getting ready to retire from that.

And I said, what are you planning to do when you retire? Knowing he was not going to just sit on his laurels. And he said, I’m thinking of getting back into theater.

And I said, oh, well, guess what? I have written a play and I want to submit it for the 2018 Fringe Festival. And would you be interested in directing?

And he said, well, send it to me, let me have a look at it. And then David, I’m going to pass it to you.

[David Agro]
Yeah, well, so I looked at it and I liked it. And I said, okay, we can, we can really do something with this. Do you want to work with me as dramaturge and director?

And Deb was all for it. And our working relationship from that moment on was a very, very, very good one. Because all of the input that I had about fleshing out the script and so forth, Deb ran with any idea that I came up with.

And so by the time the Fringe Lottery came around and we won it, we were really ready to give it our all and get this thing into production shape. And we did. And so the first production of this was then at the Fringe that year.

And then COVID hit and we had time to sit and think. And we ended up doing a couple of workshops of altered versions of the play. Where we rethought things, where we thought deeper about things.

And at the end of that process, Deb said, well, I want to, I want to, I want to give this a public run again. And I said, yeah, I think it’s definitely ready for that now. It needs that now.

We need an audience involved to see and respond to the work we’ve done. And so that’s where we’re at now.

[Phil Rickaby]
It turns out those workshops that you did over those COVID years, what kind of things did you learn about this show during those workshops?

[Deborah Shaw]
I learned, one, that David is a taskmaster. And when he came back with the script, he had some ideas. He reread what the critics had said, the reviewers had said, also audience members.

And we got very favorable responses from audiences. People would stop us to tell us their personal story, their family’s story, which was incredibly touching. So David really listened to that.

Reread them and just made some minor adjustments for our first workshop. We went, as David said, a little bit deeper. And then we sort of put it on hold for a little bit.

And then it was time to do it again. I felt I would like to try it again, another workshop. And David even went a little deeper as the dramaturge.

And that has blossomed even more so. That I feel the story is far more compelling. The relationships are far more compelling.

The what-if moment is far more heartbreaking.

[David Agro]
Yeah, that’s interesting saying the relationships between the characters are more compelling. And it’s true. But it begs the question, there’s only one person in this show.

So what are the relationships? So I think that’s something that we really would like to talk about. Yeah, absolutely.

The performance style of this piece. Yeah, please tell me about that. Well, Debra is the only person on stage.

And she is Ilsa, the central character of the play. But she’s not the only character on the stage. There are two or three characters on stage at any one time.

Debra does not play those characters. She plays to them. The audience doesn’t see them.

But Debra, in her interaction with them, brings them to life for the audience. And I think that’s a fascinating process. And something that an actor can do.

And to me, it unites the audience and the performer in the same act of imagination. And it’s tremendously effective. I’ve done it myself as an actor in solo shows that I’ve created for myself as well.

So I’m very familiar with the style. So working with Deb on it was just a natural outgrowth of the work I had done myself. But audiences, some people find it a little off-putting.

Because it’s obviously something different. But if you just give into it, let yourself go with it. I have actually had people come up to me after a performance and talk about the characters on stage.

And they have to stop themselves. Because they realize there’s only one actor on stage. But they have so engaged their imagination in the process with us.

That they have a full idea in their mind of those other people. And I think that’s absolutely wonderful. And it’s also a great credit to Deb.

[Deborah Shaw]
Thank you. And to you, as my director.

[Phil Rickaby]
Deb, what is it like performing with those characters on stage that aren’t there but are just there for you? A lot of times when people do solo shows, they are speaking that’s direct addressed to the audience and not to people on the stage. Maybe that’s what David means.

Some people found it unusual. It’s fascinating to me. Because there’s always so many different ways to do this kind of thing.

But for you, was that something you always thought of for this show? That it would be to these other characters? Or did that grow out of David’s direction?

[Deborah Shaw]
It actually was not my first idea to have a one-person show. And when I started writing it, it just became… They would have been unnecessary on stage.

They would have just been asking questions that Ilsa is answering. So why do they need to be there? Why do you need to have other people on stage to just ask the questions to make the story go on?

I feel if you put the other people in, it would have just muddied the story. Because the nose people would have needed their backstory. And their interactions would have had to have equal time.

Whereas, as David has directed me, those characters’ interactions are equal to mine. But they don’t have to say the full sentence. They don’t have to ask the questions because I answer it for them.

It’s been an amazing challenge. I have never done a single show. I have done traditional theater.

I have done commedia dell’arte. I have done very immersive Renaissance theater. An eight-hour day surrounded by your audience.

I have done improv, dance. But this was so challenging and absolutely thrilling. And I don’t feel lonely on stage.

I don’t feel alone at all. When we first did it for the Fringe Festival at the Helen Gardner Theater, the tech booth was at the very back behind the audience. And I could see myself in the window.

And I thought, oh, okay. It was a little disconcerting at times. But I never felt alone because the other characters are there.

And I know what they’re seeing. I understand their reactions. And even times when we’ve gone a little bit further in rehearsal and all of a sudden my reaction is different, I feel it’s because of the imagination is so open between David and I that those characters truly have a life of themselves.

They are there.

[David Agro]
They do. They are. They are now.

And they do. And I keep repeating it, but I think it’s a fascinating process. And it’s been fascinating to watch it unfold through our entire process with production.

And we’re really looking forward now to seeing how a public audience now is going to respond to the additional, the extra mile we’ve gone with this.

[Phil Rickaby]
I want to ask about that extra mile because you mentioned during those workshops and when you were rewriting it, Debra, that you looked at things that the critics had said and the reviews had said as well as things that the audience had said. I do think it takes a little, a certain amount of bravery to look at what the critics say and to dig between the lines. Because a lot of people don’t even bother reading the reviews until after the show’s over.

And they go, well, that was nice. And they sort of throw it over their shoulder. But it’s another thing to dig into what the reviewers are saying.

What did you find from those reviews that was particularly helpful that you could bring into the writing of this new version of the play?

[Deborah Shaw]
One of the things that they talked about was my reaction to what is revealed. And they didn’t quite understand how I reacted and why I reacted. So David and I talked about that.

And while we stand by my character’s reaction, we also thought it was very important to pay attention to what the reviewers said. Because they’re watching it from the outside. They weren’t through the writing position.

They weren’t through all those rehearsals and those moments where David said, Debra, just go full forward. Go train right into the station at full force. And then moments where he said, pull it back, pull it in, find those quiet moments within you.

They weren’t there for all of that. Their opinion is just as important as ours in those moments. That they deserve to understand why we didn’t do what they thought we should do.

So we heightened moments a little bit. We created more of a connection between the other characters on stage because of that interaction. That it shouldn’t just be my response they’re watching.

They should understand what the other characters’ responses are as well through me. So this is something that David and I worked on. And it really held.

We could have just left the production as it was with the Fringe Festival. We could have just said, okay, that was great. It was a good production, 10 shows, 11 days.

Yay, we’re out. But I felt it deserved more.

[David Agro]
Well, I thought it certainly had the potential for more. Especially when I listened to people and read reviews and so forth. All of that I found tremendously important.

I’m really grateful for people who have expressed their opinions to us. Whether it’s the audiences or the reviewers. You obviously read between the lines of what a reviewer says.

And you filter it and say, okay, they perceived it in this way. Another one perceived it a different way. But what picture comes out of all of that?

What are people getting? What are they not quite getting? How are they reacting?

And in some cases, how they felt cheated out of a reaction. That was crucial, actually. I can’t elaborate on that without giving a total spoiler.

We took all of those things into account in both the rewrites that we did. And my direction of Debra. I really do feel we’ve addressed quite thoroughly all of the things that percolated in our minds.

After that original run at the Fringe.

[Phil Rickaby]
One of the things I’ve learned over the years from doing various shows. Is that when an audience tells you something isn’t working, you have to listen. Or when an audience tells you what their perception is.

First of all, it’s fascinating. And you have to listen to what that is. I remember years ago, I was touring a production of a play in the style of a silent film.

And because it’s a silent film and there’s no dialogue. The audience can only know what they see on stage. There’s no exposition that we can give.

They can only know what they see. And so audiences would have very different opinions and thoughts about what was happening on the stage. And when we started doing the show, somebody would tell us what they thought was happening.

We would correct them. But then after a while, it just became so fascinating. What they were thinking was happening and what they were getting out of it.

And so we would go back to it. This was unclear because they weren’t getting this. What is the thing that people need to know?

Because when an audience tells you what they understand about a play, it’s almost always right.

[David Agro]
Well, this is it. We’re not up there. We’re not doing this for ourselves.

We’re doing it for the audience. We need to be communicating with the audience. And if some aspect of what we’re doing does not communicate or communicate in the way that we want to, we have to listen to that.

And I think it’s a tremendous opportunity to learn and grow and to shape a show like this. So I wouldn’t have been without that reaction in this process. It’s been tremendous.

I thank people for sharing their reactions with us. And it’s really been the catalyst to bring this production to where it is now.

[Deborah Shaw]
And we have had some people that have seen every aspect of it. They’ve seen it in its first run and then the two workshops. So it’s interesting to have their feedback on how it’s changed or what they can see in it that has changed and how they have felt towards those changes.

So that’s been really fantastic as well.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. I would be a couple of things. Now, David and Deb, you came together as a company.

Did you come together as a company for her? That’s how the company came together? Yes.

Okay. So the most important question that I could think of that’s next on my list of things is the company is called Zippy Said. So who is Zippy?

[Deborah Shaw]
Zippy was my little dog who allowed me to produce this show. And every rehearsal, she would wait for our stage manager, Jen, because we rehearsed in my apartment, to settle herself on the sofa, have her book, her drink, and then Zippy would wait. And when Jen said, okay, she got up beside her and Jen stage managed the show while petting Zippy with one hand.

[Phil Rickaby]
Very important to keep the producer happy.

[Deborah Shaw]
Exactly.

[Phil Rickaby]
Absolutely.

[Deborah Shaw]
Yeah. And she would, for the first rehearsal or two, she kind of walked around me because it was our living room and she’s allowed to go wherever she wanted to. But then she realized, ah, Jen can rub my belly.

That’s what I want. You can do your stuff on stage. I’m going to get my belly rubbed.

And that’s what she allowed us to do. I would do a funny thing on Instagram, Zippy Said, and I would do little stories of her and how she would respond to stuff that I had done or when we were out for a walk. And that’s where Zippy Said came from.

But my pup is gone now. She will always live in my heart and she will always be my producer.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. I want to go back in time a little bit because you were both in The Mousetrap. That’s the Toronto Truck production, I think.

[Deborah Shaw]
Yes.

[Phil Rickaby]
Of The Mousetrap, but at different times.

[Deborah Shaw]
Yep.

[David Agro]
Yes, I was in it and then I was directing it. And while I was directing it, I ended up filling in every major role, every male role at one time or another. So, yeah, I had my fill of it, that’s for sure.

[Deborah Shaw]
And then I started it, but I didn’t know David. But somebody we both knew was in the production when we were both doing it. And he became a wonderful friend for both of us.

And then another friend of mine got me into the University of Toronto to work in exams. And that’s where I physically met David, even though I’d heard about him before.

[Phil Rickaby]
I have to ask about that production. Because The Mousetrap at Toronto Truck has not been running in Toronto for quite some time. But for a while it was, I don’t know if the word is legendary or notorious.

Probably both. Yeah, I was about to say maybe both. What was it like working on this?

I mean, this show is still running in London at this time. But, like I said, it’s no longer running in Toronto. But what was it like working on this show that ran for so long?

[David Agro]
Well, you’re stepping into a show that’s completely shaped. You have to follow the blocking that’s been established. So there’s certainly limitations as an actor in what you can do.

But the challenge is to, within those confines, to make the role your own. And then to find your own way to keep it fresh when you’re repeating it for a very long time. So there’s something to be gained from every experience.

And there certainly were things to be gained from that experience. And then when I directed it, then I had an opportunity to actually make some changes with the cast that was there at that time. And to the point where we all felt that it was refreshed.

And I felt I had actually had some impact on the production.

[Deborah Shaw]
I felt it was an excellent learning experience. Because yes, you’re coming into a show. You start as an understudy, as I did.

You go and watch the production. You’re rehearsing one night a week. And then you’re on stage.

Sometimes you’ve never worked with the cast that’s there. Sometimes you meet them the night you walk through the door and put your costume on. So it was a really unique experience.

And I feel really lucky to have it when I met great people. But it was fun. And I would get on the TTC after.

And I could hear people. She was in the show. It was her.

It was her. It would make me laugh. Because people were shy to come and talk to you.

But they also wanted to know, oh my goodness, what are you like outside of this? Because, of course, we were English-accented. But, you know, I had a pen pal.

A gentleman was touring Canada. And apparently he got homesick and was coming to see The Mousetrap. And he really liked my accent.

And he sent me a postcard. From Swindon. And we wrote back and forth for another, oh goodness, 16 years?

And it was just because he felt homesick. And I made him feel at home. And then his postcard, which really came at a bad time for me, was just a nice breath of fresh air.

And we just became pen pals. And it was all because of The Mousetrap. It was just, to me, a lovely, lovely story.

[Phil Rickaby]
That experience of coming into a show and having to learn it. That’s actually such a useful experience for somebody. I’ve known people who’ve had that experience, but on a Broadway stage or on a Mirvish stage for a musical.

When I was in theater school, our music teacher was going on in Les Miserables for a couple of months. Oh, wow. And he would say, my rehearsal process, he gave me a tape and said, learn that.

And then I had to go and watch the show a bunch of times. And if I’m lucky, I’ll get a rehearsal tomorrow. And then I’ll go on.

That was the whole process for that show.

[Deborah Shaw]
Well, I played Casewell. And one night, or one afternoon, I got a call. I had started learning the wife’s part, but really wasn’t 100% involved in it.

And then I got a call saying, well, you need to go on as Molly tonight. I had no clue. There were parts of the show I had never seen.

I’d never been on stage for. I’d edited a few times. And my gentleman who played my husband was so gracious and kind.

And he said, I’m going to hold your hand. And if I think you’re going to miss a line, I’m going to squeeze your hand. And he just guided me through that production that evening.

That is what working in that sort of an environment was like. Very comforting. As scary as that moment was, it was comforting.

You knew you had people that were there to make certain you weren’t going to fall flat on your face.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, yeah, for sure. There’s a production in New York right now, the Back to the Future musical. And I was watching, and there was some guy who was a swing.

And he was still learning the main role. But the guy who played Marty McFly got sick. And so he had to go on.

And he was like, I haven’t learned most of these dances. And had to go on and frantically have the cast help him through the show. Which is wild.

But, I mean, theater, right?

[Deborah Shaw]
Yeah.

[David Agro]
Yeah. It’s like an opera. I was at the COC one time.

And the lead was ill. And somebody had to replace her at the very last moment. I felt, you know, I think the audience is really with the person.

You know, on stage when they’re having to go through this. But her first scene, it was bumming. You know, is the only way to put it.

And I don’t know what happened after she went off and before she came on in the next scene. But when she came on for the next scene, she had it nailed. And she sailed the rest of the way.

[Phil Rickaby]
But, of course, there’s a million stories like that, right? Yeah. I mean, during the pandemic when Broadway was running out of swings and stuff, they were flying people in who played the role once.

Like, I know you haven’t played the role in like ten years, but can you come in and do it? Like, that is, that’s insane. But, again, theater.

The show goes on one way or another. Now, if Deborah were to fall ill, I don’t think, I don’t think we could replace her. David, you’re not prepared to go on.

I mean, I know it’s in the theater, but.

[Deborah Shaw]
You would look lovely in my costume, David. You might have to shave your legs, though.

[Phil Rickaby]
I want to I want to sort of leave that show and leave the mousetrap for a moment, and I want to talk about for each of you. One of my favorite things to do is to hear people’s theater origin stories, the thing that got them into theater and that made them want to do this. So I would love to hear from each of you.

Let’s start with with David and go to Deborah. What is your theater origin story?

[David Agro]
The first. Show I ever went to in my life was as a child, and it was the unsinkable Molly Brown at a local community theater. Well, I was hooked from that moment on.

This is magic. And then when I was in high school, a few years later, I was in the they had a small drama program, but they actually did full productions each year and stuff. So I took part in that.

And then I in university, I took one theater course, an acting course as an interest course. It still had never quite dawned on me that this was something to truly do, you know, with your life. But after that first year, that was it.

I, that was my major and acting and directing became my total focus. And then my first professional production after theater school was a one person show. So my history with that form goes right back to the beginning.

[Phil Rickaby]
Now, before I before I go over to Deborah, what was the moment when you sort of had that realization that this is a thing you could do? Because, you know, a lot of people do their community, do the community theater thing and they do, you know, they do or they they leave high school and they’re like, I remember I did a show once and that was their their thing. What was the moment where you were like, no, this is it.

This is the thing I’m going to do.

[David Agro]
Well, it was, it was, it was just the experience of that first year drama program. It was the incredible enthusiasm. We, we had a wonderful, wonderful class, which I was told many years later by somebody who was in the program that our year was talked about.

It was legendary. And, and I, and I believe it. Um, it was an amazing group of people.

There was fantastic energy. There was a lot of ambition, a lot of talent. And I thought, yeah, yeah, this is something I want to be a part of, not just dip into.

Hmm.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, that’s, I mean, yeah. I mean, the experience of being in a, in a, in a production, in a, in a class, if it’s, if everything just goes right, that’s, that can be everything.

[David Agro]
And yeah, for me, it definitely was. Yeah. And, and I’m so glad now, obviously I ended up, um, working at U of T for over 25 years, during which time I never set foot on the stage.

[Phil Rickaby]
Hmm.

[David Agro]
Um, when I returned to it, uh, shortly before retiring, in fact, uh, at the great burgeoning of a wonderful friend of mine, um, Bev Lewis, I’ll mention her name because she actually composed, uh, the, uh, the bits of, uh, incidental music that we use in her. Um, but she, anyway, she was the one, she was the person who actually encouraged me to make a start at, um, performing again. And so once she had talked me into it, I, I took it on, um, project at hand and, uh, I thought I with, not with trepidation, but, um, I was really wondering what is this going to be like?

Is it like getting on a bicycle, you know, but it, your, your muscle memory just sort of picks it up again. Will it be really difficult to get back into it? Um, it was neither of those.

It was in fact much, much better than it had been 25 years before I, I was, I surprised myself. I completely surprised myself at what I could pull out. Um, so it was, it was, um, that was my new beginning.

Hmm. Hmm.

[Phil Rickaby]
Nice. Deb, what, what’s, what is your, uh, theater origin story?

[Deborah Shaw]
When we came to Canada, I was gesturing for, and from where we lived, there was a, uh, an arena behind us. So my mother signed my brother and I both up for skating, figure skating. And so my first performance was when I was four years old and I wasn’t afraid of the lights.

I wasn’t afraid of the darkness. I wasn’t afraid of the crowds. Then, uh, started school and I went into tap and ballet.

And every year the choreographer went to all the different schools in the area, all the public schools. And then we did a big show. So each year did two numbers of the show.

I loved it. My mother made my costume. She did such a fabulous job and I really loved the whole part of it.

And then, um, a few years I, I kind of went into my shell, but I had the most amazing grade eight teacher. Ms. Zabinski. And she, we did speech arts.

I don’t know if anybody else did speech arts, but when you got up and you spoke a poem, something you had written, you did a report on something you had studied, you did a performance. And I could barely speak in front of people. I almost passed out in grade eight from nerves.

And she said to me, it’s okay. You can do it next time. And I sat down and she came to me after class and she said everything, words to the effect, everything you have to say is just as important as the next person.

She instilled such confidence in who I am that I was able to do my speech in the next class. I was still nervous, of course. Um, but I, I got up and I did it and I felt accomplished at that moment.

Then in grade 10, there was drama class and I knew I wanted to do drama. At the time I was also part of what’s called the drum corps. I was in the, uh, color guard.

So I was performing with rifles and flag. So I always kind of performed somehow. And drama class was just, I, it was the place to be.

I really loved every minute of it. And I was English major, drama major. And then there was writing involved and it was kind of like, what do I want to do?

And about 16, I decided theater. Theater was what I wanted. I loved being part of the stage management crew.

I loved being part of costuming. I love being part of stage. So I was always in it somehow.

I went to theater school, theater Humber. Which was really a wonderful training ground. And, um, I chose to also be part of stage management and costuming while performing.

When I left theater school, kind of muddled around a little bit. Didn’t quite know where to put myself. Made some decisions.

Ended up not really performing for a while. And then slowly got myself back into it. And from there, just saw this belly dance school, Arabesque Academy.

I kept passing it. And I finally took a class. And there’s where I started performing again.

I started from scratch learning how to use my body all over again. I’d had dance training galore. And theater training galore.

But this was something new. And then I joined a troupe within it, a student troupe. And then another one, a little bit higher level.

And boy, it was amazing to be part of it. I then costumed for the professional company. I was the backstage coordinator for all of the shows that we did.

We did the International Belly Dance Conference of Canada. So all these people came from all over the world. And while I performed as well, I was also part of the backstage.

Part of the technical side of the company. So theater’s always been something I have loved. My parents being British, we were born in Belfast.

Theater, live theater, was always a part of their lives. So it was never anything kind of new or startling. It just was a progression.

And then hadn’t performed other than dance for probably about eight years. And a friend contacted me the summer of 2016 and said, Hey, you know, we’re doing a production of Midsummer Night’s Dream. Four people in an hour.

Lots of audience participation. We only got four rehearsals. Are you in?

I said, yeah, yeah. And I had to teach myself how to learn lines again. Because I hadn’t learned lines for years.

But once I did that, and thank you David Cairns. That was just the most amazing, fun, fun time. It made me really want to do this again.

So it was then that I started the need to write this play. So now we’ve come full circle. After I performed in Midsummer Night’s Dream, in which I was Puck, I felt ready to perform again.

So I felt ready to write this play. And this is where I felt the confidence to get back on stage as an actor. That I could do this.

And thankfully I had David who understood this kind of theater. And took a hold of it 100% and held my hand. And every night I feel his hand holding mine.

Every time I perform. And I know that he’s 100% behind me. And I respect what he has done to help me get here.

It’s just my life. There was always challenges. I made decisions to get a job.

I made decisions to be married and put theater to the side. But it was always there and always a want. And I never felt pressured.

I can do it whenever I want to.

[Phil Rickaby]
When did writing come into it? Did writing come in with her? Or had you written before?

When did playwriting become a thing for you?

[Deborah Shaw]
I wrote in high school. And I had a really wonderful teacher from my English writing class. And he wanted me to write more.

But theater class was kind of losing at that point. It was either I go to this writing symposium every other week. Or I go to my theater arts class.

And that was grade 13. And that was really important. So I had to put the writing to the side.

But I always enjoyed stories. And my head is always filled with stories. My phone, notepad, is filled with bits of dialogue.

And bits and pieces of a storyline that I would like to eventually get back to. I just write it down as it comes to me. And I never thought about actually writing a play until her.

It just seemed like the right time and the right thing to do.

[David Agro]
And since then, of course, we’ve discussed several other ideas. They just bore out of Deb. So we’ll see what’s next.

[Phil Rickaby]
I mean, that is one of the things about writing. Is if you want to keep writing, keep writing. Because that writing muscle, just as soon as you start doing it, there’s more that happens.

And there’s more that comes. So it’s always really good to flex that creative muscle and see what else comes out.

[Deborah Shaw]
During COVID, a friend of mine who is a playwright, we went to theater school together, Mike Grant. He got together an online group. And we read his play so that we weren’t copywriting anybody.

And then I said to him, well, I have this other play that I’ve just literally finished. It’s so rough. But we did a couple of readings of that, our group then, and then just me and David and our other friends.

And it was fun to hear that because there were more characters. And it was a comedy as opposed to this one. And I will get back to that one.

My brain is just with Ilse Breen at the moment.

[Phil Rickaby]
It’s true. It’s hard to write something when you’re in the middle of something. I’ve tried to do it and it doesn’t work out so well.

[Deborah Shaw]
Yes. And things were going on during, you know, I lost my father and then I lost my Zippy during COVID. So I wasn’t really up to writing and flexing those artistic muscles.

And David’s been very patient. But I always come to him with, oh, I have this idea. Well, do it.

And I’ll get to them.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. I don’t know about you, but I have a whole folder on my computer that is just ideas. And sometimes it’s a word and sometimes it’s a sentence and sometimes it’s a paragraph.

But it’s all over.

[Deborah Shaw]
Exactly. And sometimes it was somebody said something near me. I heard it went, oh, my God, I have to break that down.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah.

[Deborah Shaw]
Thank God with our phones, the way they work, those notepads that you were just like right in there. It’s fabulous.

[Phil Rickaby]
I know. I can get that note in. You get that note in so quickly.

You don’t have to like take out a piece of paper so that it’s gone.

[Deborah Shaw]
And then lose that piece of paper. Yes.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah, for sure. For sure. I have ideas that have been in there for years, but it’s just the way that somebody said three words.

I’m like that. Those three words. That’s something.

I don’t know what it is, but it’s something.

[Deborah Shaw]
Yes. And eventually it will be something or will be a part of something.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yes. Yeah.

[Deborah Shaw]
And that’s what happened with the next play that I wrote, that it was conversations that happened with several different people that have no connection to each other, years and years apart. But they just kind of all met in this new piece as different people. I’m really excited to get back to that one, but I really love her.

I’m really married to Ilsa. Continuing this journey for now.

[Phil Rickaby]
Yeah. For sure. Well, the show runs at the Red Sandcastle Theater in Toronto from September 6th to 10th.

I guess you guys move into the theater next week.

[Deborah Shaw]
Next Tuesday. And then we open Wednesday.

[Phil Rickaby]
Wow. Okay.

[Deborah Shaw]
I know.

[Phil Rickaby]
That’s always a nerve-wracking prospect, that whole moving into the theater and getting ready thing. But, I mean, if you’ve done it for Fringe, you can do it, right?

[David Agro]
Well, with the Fringe, you have to foot up and take down your show every performance because somebody else is going to be using that stage in 45 minutes. So, yeah, moving in, which we did also with the workshops that we did, we staged them as fully as we could in the circumstances. So, yeah, putting this show up together is kind of getting second nature.

[Deborah Shaw]
And I have to say one thing. I had no vision for the show. I wrote it, but I gave it to David naked.

And David came back with the full vision and how it is staged, the costuming. He just gave me an idea of what he wanted. I went online and found it.

And then he said to me what changes he wanted made to the costume because I can do that stuff, I made those changes. But David has the full vision for her. And I just went with it because it works fabulously.

[Phil Rickaby]
David, where did that vision come from? How did you find that?

[David Agro]
I couldn’t really tell you. It’s one of those things where I read the script and I looked back recently because sometimes I like to do this to sort of trace my thought processes through something. I went back to the first notes that I sent to Deb about the script after I had read it the first time.

And I thought right then there already was this full-blown idea in my head about what this show was, what it meant, what it would look like, how it would run. I don’t know where that came from. But it came almost instantaneously.

Now, obviously, it’s been refined through the process. But it was just there when I read Deb’s words.

[Phil Rickaby]
Well, thank you both for talking to me about her. And I can’t wait to see what this show looks like in this new iteration.

[Deborah Shaw]
Thank you so much. This has been wonderful.

[Phil Rickaby]
This has been an episode of Stageworthy. Stageworthy is produced, hosted, and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me.

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