#378 – Janine Marley

Janine Marley is an independent theatre reviewer born in Kingsville, Ontario and has been a Torontonian since November 2020. She holds Honours BA and MA Degrees from the University of Windsor in English Language and Literature with her studies primarily focused on theatre. She began acting at a young age and continued acting in productions until 2018. After graduating, she became a theatre practitioner co-founding Paper-Knife Theatre Company in Windsor, Ontario, as well as working for The Edge Productions in Windsor and Groundling Theatre Company in Toronto. She started her blog, A View from the Box, as a personal project to share her passion for theatre. Now that she lives in Toronto, she is turning that passion into becoming a reliable resource for all things live performance including theatre, dance, opera, and music.

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Transcript

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Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years. But I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.

If you value the work that I do want Stageworthy please consider leaving a donation either as a one time thing or on a recurring monthly basis. Stageworthy is created entirely by me and I give it to you free of charge with no advertising or other sponsored messages. your continuing support helps me to cover the cost of producing and distributing the show. Just for people donating $5 A month would help me cover the cost of podcast hosting alone. Help me continue to bring you this podcast, you can find a link to donate in the show notes which you can find in your podcast app or the website at stageworthy.ca. Now, onto the show. My guest this week is independent theatre reviewer Janine Marley from view from the box. In this conversation, we talk about what brought her to start her own theatre review blog, what it’s like to be a theatre reviewer, how she started sharing reviews on tick tock, and much more. Here’s our conversation.

Janine, thank you so much for joining me, I really appreciate it just to, I guess, the best place to so you’re you’ve been? How long have you been reviewing theatre for?

Janine Marley
So I started my blog is just a passion project doing it for fun thing back in 2014. So it’s been almost 10 years now, which is just crazy to think about, because I go, Oh, gosh, I’ve been out of grad school for almost 10 years. But I started that, and I was just writing about what I would see at Stratford, or what I was seeing at the university just very casually, not not as dedicated as I am now. And then, once things started to open up after the pandemic, I was like, Oh, this is my shot. I’m living in Toronto. Now. This is my chance to take this seriously and give it a go and urine a bit later. I feel like

Phil Rickaby
you also were sort of doing that just the right time. Megan Mooney had stopped publishing, Mooney on theatre. And there’s there was this void in the reviewing landscape that you filled among other people, but you were one of the one of the voices that sort of jumped in and filled that void. Now making the switch from just like document talking about the things that you’ve seen to actual reviewing, because those are two different things. What describe, describe the difference between those two?

Janine Marley
I think now there’s I don’t want to say a pressure. But there is like a sense of urgency to the writing that I certainly enjoy now that I can put myself in it more wholeheartedly like now that it is my primary focus. I can, I’m not watching the emails of the critics are raving going by and go like, right, I knew I needed to write about that show. I’m not getting as lost and like the pileup of it all. So there is there’s a sense of urgency to it. But also, I noticed that I’m flexing different mental muscles as I go. There’s a lot of different trains of thought from when I see something because I know I’m going to be writing about it later. Versus if I’m just seeing it to enjoy. So it has been interesting learning when I want to turn those muscles on and off. And if I can, because sometimes that’s not my choice. It’s been a really interesting journey now that I can give myself fully to it. It’s been a lot more enjoyable than the sort of overwhelming pile up because something like in April where there was something like I think I saw a politician was tweeting, there’s just like, why is there 10 openings on one weekend and it was true? It was why Oh, and that paired with a full time job really was a lot to balance. So now I’m actually looking forward. Yeah,

Phil Rickaby
yeah, that April was like November because November is usually when everybody opens everything. And so it was like I think everybody’s excited to be back in the theatre. People are excited to get on stages again. Now. Absolutely. See there’s something about brewing and I there there’s sometimes been pressure On my on me as somebody who has a platform to review shows, and I do not do that. I have never been comfortable doing it. Listen, if you want to talk about a show whether or not it’s good, we could do that in the private. But putting that out there. Yeah. Because I know that for myself, I can be a harsh critic, especially when I’m talking with my theatre friends will talk harshly about his show. And especially if something isn’t working for me, but I always analyse what that is that said, but I want to be the booster of theatre. And so I don’t review mostly because I know I’m harsh audience sometimes. And but reviewing is not just talking about a show. It’s there’s more to just like slagging off a show, this didn’t work that didn’t work. Like there’s no or when it shows good is going yeah, it was really good. There’s more to reviewing. What is your journey been for going from just writing about shows? Like, how did you hone the reviewers pen for one of a better term?

Janine Marley
It’s an ongoing process. I think, for me, it is still something that showed a show I have to figure out because I agree it when a show is great. It’s easy to write about, right? Because you’re going wow, I this ticked all the boxes I had, so and it does, sometimes it does almost feel like a booster pose because I’m like, I’m satisfied. Like I had a great time. This was fun. When I see something that I have problems with. That’s when it gets harder. And I go, Okay, how do we how do I give the nicest constructive criticism that I can so that I am still voicing my opinion, while also doing it in a way that it doesn’t come off as too brutal, or just too punchy? And it is a fine line? And yeah, it literally changes show to show I think for me, it’s just it totally depends on what it hits, and also where I am because I have had some shows where they come out of it thinking one thing, have a nice sleep, and then wake up in the morning and I go, Oh, okay, I see why I didn’t get XY and Z or I have rethought about a VNC. And actually, that makes more sense now. Okay, cool. And my opinion can change. So it does, it takes a it’s a it’s an ongoing journey. But it’s a journey that I’m happy to, to be on. Because I do think that everything sort of changes depending on what’s put in front of you.

Phil Rickaby
That’s absolutely certain that opinion changing as even just moments passed between leaving a show and sitting down to write about it, or things like that have been having the freedom to sit with the show before you have to talk about it can be supremely helpful. But that the harsh voice that some I remember years ago, back when there was an eye magazine, and I magazine for friends because they were sometimes the media sponsor would bring in, like all of these extra people so that they could review all the shows. And I remember meeting somebody who was very excited because they were going to be reviewing shows, and they couldn’t wait to give one star as to all the shows they saw. And I was like, that’s not actually reviewing that’s not shitting on shows and just shitting on shows for the sake of sitting on shows is not reviewing.

Janine Marley
No, that’s not what we’re here for. And especially not at Fringe. So many things that you see at Fringe are in their baby versions. They are freshly minted new ideas that people are trying out for the first time it’s very rare that you see something or friends that it’s like, oh no, maybe we run this like three or four times before. This is like final version. It’s ready to go. Most of it is new, which is exciting. It’s what it’s about. When it’s certainly not the time to be like I’m gonna start to tear down every single thing I see that yeah, not.

Phil Rickaby
For Toronto friends, there’s a little bit more of a complication in that fringe, not the organisation but fringe the people the media that surrounded everything that surrounds it is less forgiving than some other Fringe Festivals. When things are not polished. Our we’ve been coddled by having a Kim’s convenience, the kink in my in her hair, The Drowsy Chaperone, all of these shows that they came out of fringe have went on for years. And so now there’s a lot of people and some media outlets that sit down and go, right, what’s the gonna be the next the next big thing and if it’s not that they’re not satisfied.

Janine Marley
Another big order? That is a huge order, because realistically, the people that were at Kim’s convenience or didn’t get my hair probably didn’t know, when they’re seeing it. That’s what it’s going to be right there were several openings that I’ve gone to where I look at my partner and I go, Oh, I wonder if this is going to be a show where we get to say we were opening night for that big thing, but you can’t know that right now. You’re gonna know in 1015 years. It’s only going to pinpoint now because there’s a lot of things that have that X factor into pends on, does it get picked up by a big enough producer? Does it get carried on? There’s so many things that go into does it stay a little or does it get?

Phil Rickaby
I will say that having seen Kim’s convenience at Fringe when it was there, everybody in that audience knew there was no question. That was great.

Janine Marley
I know it shocked having read the play. I’m just like, oh, yeah, that’s yes. It was

Phil Rickaby
one of those soulmates, okay, you’ve probably had this experience people, the end of the show comes, and then the applause starts. And there’s a couple of people over there who stand up because they feel like they went to a show and they’re supposed to give it a standing ovation. And then these people over here, they see those people stand up. And so they stand up and it’s spreads like, like, just like mushrooms sprouting up, but it’s not organic. But Kim’s convenience was a show where that show ended. And everybody stood up, there’s like, no question. That’s that was gonna happen. And that’s the difference. Like when you’re in the audience, and it is one of those spontaneous moments. You stand, you just feel it. And there’s other shows, really. Nobody else is standing. So I guess I have to stand or look like a jackass.

Janine Marley
Yes, but it is those moments though, where everybody just, and you hear everybody seek to clap back at the same time. And the roar of the applause and that gives me goosebumps. I can live off of that adrenaline for days. You don’t really mean I can just like, I will be writing that excitement. For days after that. I go, Oh my gosh, we saw that. Yeah. And it was that level of theme. So yeah, it is special. When it does happen. It can happen in something like a fringe show. Even better.

Phil Rickaby
No, this fringe because I think last year’s fringe Toronto fringe was it was it was weird. It was weird. I think there’s nobody who can say it wasn’t weird. It was just like everybody’s trying to find this the what is performing like and what is like fringing and it was weird. Not like there were no posters. Yeah, hardly sign it by the flyer and all this sort of stuff. So have this weird feeling. This year felt a lot a little bit more like a normal fringe. Did you review last year as well as this year?

Janine Marley
I did. So last year, I had just started my full time job. And then fringe comes along like a month later. I’m like, Cool, I bet I can just be like an IP. So for 11 days, I know I just got done training. Not be here for 11 days. So I saw 15 shows. Over the course of that time. While then working. I tried to write about things as quickly as I could if I remember like my last few reviews got out in the days following because I just that’s when I started drinking coffee. I was a tea girl before last fringe. And then French happened and now she’s the coffee drinkers 50

Phil Rickaby
shows is still a respectable number. We can’t all be Derek tua. And see, like almost 100

Janine Marley
shows, like I saw 39 This year, and I was proud of myself, it would have been 40 but the TTC made me miss a show. And I was devastated. So yeah, I saw 39 shows. And I’m sitting there going, how does like how does he do that? Because I am exhausted with 39. And yes, almost double that.

Phil Rickaby
I always make this mistake when I’m gonna be like this is fringe day, and I go out and I see a bunch of shows. I’ll see the three shows. And then all of a sudden, I realise that Oh, I didn’t plan for food.

Janine Marley
The people at the soul pepper Cafe saved my life the one day because I had not factored in time for dinner at all. I got there with 15 minutes to spare. And I went up to them. And I was like, how long does it take me one of those sandwiches. They said five minutes. I was like, literally all I have. And I swallow down a cup of soup and a sandwich and then went running into my show. And I was just like, Okay, this is not gonna happen from now on. And the thing is, I do it to myself. When on the days that I went with my partner, oh no, we had chunks of time in between for meal breaks and very lackadaisical schedules on the weekend because I’m going like, he’s not going to want to do 15 shows in a day, we can do three, four tops, because you know, third fringe shows are little. So on the days when I was with him on the weekend, they were very well planned. It’s when I’m just out there on my own. And I’m like,

Phil Rickaby
I mean, I do the same thing. And that’s because when you’re like seeing shows when it’s just you’re like, I’m fitting in as many shows as I can. And because this is business, you’re like, I’m just gonna do it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, again, I don’t review but I tweet and I post about shows when I see them. Just because I want to boost if I like a show. There’s a couple of people who caught on to my I might say I’m sitting down to see this show and then the Don’t hear what I thought about this show. And then like, I wonder if that’s a sign. And then a couple who were like does that if you don’t after the show, if you don’t say something was that I’m like, you caught me. You caught me. It’s true. It’s true. But this show that I think you missed was when we I was going to and you were like, I’m stuck in traffic. And I was like, Yeah, moments before you texted I was like trying to get in line. But I also had just run to the Wendy’s around the corner, because I was starting to get hungry and I was meal shoving a burger in my mouth just to try to get into this show. Like you do when you foolishly not planned out food?

Janine Marley
Like we do. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was stuck on like the Dundas Street car. Yeah, I was so excited. Because you were gonna be there. And oh, great. Oh, good to say hi to Phil. This will be so the TGC the GDC is right. I was I won’t lie to you today. But then I think we bumped into each other. It really wasn’t like the last day or the second lap day or something like that.

Phil Rickaby
It was the the Michael Ross Albert show,

Janine Marley
which I saw the next day I saw on the last day of fringe. I can’t Oh, why was I saw that was a pilot. I was in corporate Finch, which was like, my that was a lot of fun fringe

Phil Rickaby
audience is sometimes you sit down after certainly like so what is it that an audience really likes about this show? Because maybe I like I’ll see a show and it doesn’t hit for me. But people are going crazy for it. And I’ll be like, okay, so what is it cuz it’s weird. We really just like weird. What is it? Is it just that it has a strong concept? And like mull that over for ages and never really come to the conclusion about what is it that people are actually digging about this? So, because I think it’s one of those fringe mysteries?

Janine Marley
Yeah. No, I had one like that last year, where Kyle and I went, and we were sitting there and the rest of the audience is like roaring at these jokes. And I’m just like, Am I too tired? Or am I like, Am I just like, totally missing everything that’s happening here? Because like I was, so once we got out this, of course, you don’t want like, talk to versus it dreams wasn’t gone? I remember be like, okay, was that just mean? He was like, no, no, I didn’t get either. I’m like, okay, but no, no, as long as we’re on the same page, I’m good. But it was almost like, it was like everybody else wins. Like, in on the inside joke. And I wasn’t like I had I had

Phil Rickaby
a show that I saw like that this year. And I was just looking around like, like, you guys obviously know, something that I don’t about this show.

Janine Marley
Ya know, it’s like, what am I missing? Did I not read the programme? What’s happening? Yeah, 100%

Phil Rickaby
print is a wild time. And I think that’s that fact that the lottery system keeps it to be like, so egalitarian. Sure. Some people always every year somebody complains that the lottery is fixed and all those sorts of stuff. But it’s, I know it’s not. And we anybody who’s been at the lottery and watched them counting ballots, and having somebody verify ballots, you know that that’s not fixed. It’s the keeps it such because you literally anybody can have a show, from whoever like has like experienced producing to somebody who’s a first time producer, and it’s so wild to be able to see somebody, like doing something for the first time.

Janine Marley
And it’s inspiring, like when you go when you see a show, and then you find out that like that person’s from halfway across the world and they’re on like, a Canadian fringe circuit or Yeah, or like their first time and you’re like for you because my gosh, my first shows I was like directing and producing did not turn out like this, ladies and gentlemen, like not at all. It’s always it’s so exciting for me, because it’s the beauty. To me, that’s what fringe is about. It’s okay, cool. Let’s see who’s out there and what’s out there. Because yeah, like you say some of it like, as soon as we saw Blake and clays names on our show, we were like, Okay, we missed it last year. There, but at the same time you get it? Yeah. Like I say I literally I saw a show where the young lady performing and it was before and I was like you’re actually you live there. She’s like, Yeah, I’m like wild, it’s so much fun. It makes it makes every day. Incredibly just spicy. You never know what you’re gonna get.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, back in 2012. I was on a French term. We started the show at the Montreal fringe. And there was a troupe of three people doing that they were from Japan, and they were doing this incredible physical theatre thing. And it was there’s almost no English in this show. But it was like, the Japanese precision in like the way that it was so beautiful and amazing. And they just came in they did the Orlando friends they did the Montreal friends and then they were gone. But things that you that are like lightning in a bottle things that you’ll only see in somebody like calm was because they just were able to get into those fringes and it’s amazing. See,

Janine Marley
it certainly makes it. Yeah, like I said, it makes it the exciting thing that fringe is it gives it its, yeah, it gives its vibe, like our whole essence that we were maybe missing out on a little bit last year. I feel like that part of it was definitely president this year of like, we could have people from further away. There was less. We’re regulations. There’s like, that was great. And I think that’s sort of the community aspect that is fringe. I really felt because like, I started to recognise people from show to show, and I didn’t really get to do that last year. And I feel like I saw you yesterday. Hi. And next thing you know, you’ve made friends because you’re just like, chilling out waiting in line at factory or wherever, like, all day together. And it’s awesome. I even got to connect with other critics who like I had only seen in the Twitterverse or wherever. I can actually get to hang out with them in person because it’s so cool. Are you? Yeah, great. Looks just weren’t a buddy system this and like No, only one person has to stand in line and then you end up hanging out with one another. It’s a lot of it was a lot of fun. It’s like it’s a really liquidates really wild 12 days like, afterwards, I booked myself purposefully two days of rest. Afterwards, where I’m like, I’m not doing anything, do not call me these two days. I’m going to sleep and try to get my internal alarm clock back somewhere where she should be. And then we’ll go from there. And then I can figure things out after that.

Phil Rickaby
Oh, no, before you started reviewing. You were a theatre practitioner. So you were like, producing shows and putting shows on. Was, I want to know what your theatre origin story what first drew you to theatre? Because I think that will show us the road to review in

Janine Marley
that how she got here. Yeah, so like every good theatre practitioner, I started off doing musicals and community theatre when I was nine. I was in the inaugural production of the Kingsville repertory players and things Ontario. We did the music man. I still do every word to every song because it lives written free in your brain from nine years old until now. And yeah, so it was basically like I had done dance as a kid. We It was fun. Once that sort of fell out. My folks got wind of oh, we want to start up a theatre company here in Kingsville. And so we jumped on board, like as a family. My dad was a producer, my mom and I would act. My younger sister bless her heart at the time. I like to the first show was too shy. We did the King and I after that, and of course, we needed a large brood of children. And so she was like, I don’t have to say anything. We’re like, No, it’s good. We just have to look cute. And she was like, okay, and I was like, great. And so we got her on stage. And then we did two productions of Scrooge after that. Yeah. So that was I started doing community theatre. I studied drama in high school. But then once I hit University, I was going to be a teacher. Oh, good teach kids about Shakespeare. And that was like, my goal. So I took English literature, I have a master’s degree in English literature. And of course, by the time from like, when I graduated high school to like when I was having to make the decision of which path do I want to go down? The number of teaching jobs just plummeted. And so it’s all a gear change, we have to figure out what we’re gonna do. I consider being a dramaturg for a little while, but a lot of directors and theatre companies do their own dramaturgy, especially for older work new work dramaturgy. Yeah, they absolutely need you. But I was like, no, let me help you like edit Shakespeare. Does that look amazing? So there was less room for that. So eventually, I just got to a point where I was like, then why don’t I just do that for myself? No one is telling me I can’t direct so I started up a theatre company with two friends of mine from grad school. And we did I’m trying to remember how many shows that are now linked up. I think I directed for a new that company. It’s a blur because it first of all, anything. Anything like pre pandemic right now? I don’t know was that last year was that what is tying? Oh, who knows? No, no. Well, this time, everything is all just wibbly wobbly timey like me. Nobody knows what it means anymore. But yeah, so I Yeah, so I just I started directing theatre. And then I got more involved with other companies like I started assisting directing for another friend who I had hired to be in one of my shows. And because you’re in a small city, the theatre community is even smaller. Yeah, we started working together and it was awesome. And I laughed show and so that’s always dabbled in everything right? I ended up directing one show but directing also usually my producing and then I’d assistant director another show, which would be assistant directing, plus also carpool lead on front of house and everything. And then yeah, but so it really writing about theatre is the perfect sort of marriage between my degrees and my passion. It takes all of that knowledge, the practical knowledge that I gained from everything that I did after grad school. And then all of the writing that I developed my writing skills and analytical skills that I developed it University and combines them into one glorious occupation.

Phil Rickaby
It’s a huge eluded to dramaturgy. And the way that because, yeah, I’ve heard it described there’s two different types of dramaturgy. When we first heard about dramaturgy when I was in theatre school, in the olden days in the 90s, was described as the way what people would now consider like the British way, which is where somebody comes in, and they have all of the information about everything you need to know about the period and all the stuff you need to know about the show so that everybody who’s there basically the onset the caste teacher who can teach you about like, why, what does this word mean? Why is this thing and all this sort of stuff, and they could do all of that. Whereas Canadian dramaturgy and I don’t know if it if it’s in the States as well, but Canadian dramaturgy is helping you craft the show and shape the show and filling in all the blanks. There’s two very different in disciplines that have the same name. Yeah.

Janine Marley
Yeah. And it’s, and it depends on whether Yeah, and a lot of it is like what you were describing is a lot more like new work dramaturgy, right? Where like, you’re sitting down with the author and the director going like, really? Do you really think that things can fly through the air there, you really want to give them a go. Okay. Right. And like you’re because you’re still just be the bridge between the delightful wild creative imaginations of both the director and the writer, and then what can actually practically be done. Whereas like, when you were saying like the British style dramaturgy, that’s what I was interested in, right? It’s let me be the brain that can hold all of the information that you’re probably gonna forget in five minutes or whatever. You have the question now, and that’s great. I’ll tell it to you. I did get to do that once. It was like my foray into Toronto theatre. I worked with Graham Abbey and the Groundlings Theatre Company, when they were in their second season at the Elgin at the Winter Garden Theatre. And because they were doing Measure for Measure, and I talked to Graham during the summer, I was like, I love that show. He goes, have you studied it? And I’m like, dude, yeah, like TWICE, Like once I’m undergrad once in grad school. I love this show. And he goes, okay, is man. I have a lot of questions. And the actors will have a lot of questions. And I was like, great. Lovely. And so I got to spend over there for their technique for winter sale, which was just fun, because they were like, We need eyes. And I was like, right, I can do that. But then remember, they were still the rekindling that sort of final phase of rehearsal. So yeah, people would be like, coming up to me, but I would have people like Lucy peacock coming up to me and being like, Kenny, what do you think about this? Okay, like, do you want to talk about black sheep? Or like, how deep do you want me to get into this? And so it was the coolest 10 days of my life, I have to say, like, I had the most incredible time I got to work with some incredible actors. But yeah, it was really neat to get to experience. That side of this would be really cool. Like, I wish I could just keep doing this for the rest of my life and just put all that knowledge to use but I feel like that’s the nicest part about reviewing is that this is how I get to put all that stuff into my review. One of the

Phil Rickaby
things that they think that you do that I think is pretty unique is your you do tick tock reviews. Now, I’ve seen people do that for movies and tick tock people talk about movies a lot. On tick tock. I haven’t seen a lot of people reviewing and talking about theatre on tick tock and impressive kudos that you do that because I think it’s something that doesn’t happen a lot. Did that come naturally to you? Or how did that come about?

Janine Marley
It’s twofold. I’ve had two influences on that one. So I had started to like Instagram and my best friend. Caitlin says to me, you have to do real. I was like, like, how have to how happy she was. The algorithm likes videos. Instagram is trying to be Tik Tok. You need to do real. So then I decided to like liked the challenge of okay, how can I elevator pitch like this show plus my review in a minute. And then I met Lindsay Middleton and Greg Carruthers Ellen opening night last fall. And Greg says to me, you need to get on Tik Tok Sr. and I was like, but I just started doing this stuff on Instagram. Like really, and he’s learning to lead because as you were saying, there’s not mounting anybody doing what you’re doing. And I really think that you can get somewhere and I was like, hey, yeah, I’m making up the video anyway. So now it’s just a matter of like, okay, now I get to post it on all the social media and I’m just like, here have my face to like, Here you go. So it’s it’s been an interesting journey. Like I say, I do like I don’t often use the full three minutes that Tik Tok will allow me because I wanted then I’m like, you know making sure that the same review gets a further spreads.

Phil Rickaby
No Do you do a lot of planning before you because I there’s some people who seem on Tik Tok like they’re like, they’re just like, they’re just talking and it’s done. And I know a couple of people who that see Here’s what they do, and they just ramble. And they’re like, Yeah, I’m just gonna say a thing and they sound intelligent. And when I tried to do that, it doesn’t go so well. How Where do you stand on the extemporaneous? SNESs of the TIC tock?

Janine Marley
I’m so sorry. But yeah, I’m one of those people. I will just do enough take. Okay, so now granted, there are some days like today, I just posted a review. So I was I’m done now. Okay, let’s make up a tick tock. And yeah, she was a one take wonder we got in all the information we got. And all of it in one take. It’s done under time. I’m like, press it, release it. We’re good. There are other days, where I then look at my phone. Once I found the tape that I like it. It’s like, cool. There’s 12 other videos that are like 22nd? Because it depends, right? How many times have I said during this video? And I’m like, no. How many times? Did I mispronounce something? And I’m like, no, no, no. And I have to just like delete 11. Other takes of that same clip of what actually makes it on social media. So it there’s a lot of there’s a lot of factors. It’s like how much coffee if I had today? What time of day? Am I trying to do that? If there’s like first thing in the morning, and I’m bright eyed and bushy tailed? Or is it at 9pm. And I’m exhausted. A lot of factors that go into it. But it’s been, it has been interesting. I haven’t had anything go viral, per se. I had one tick tock that like somehow got 1900 views. And I was just shocked. Like, my phone was like blowing up and I’m like, like, Oh, great. Because you don’t know, right? You don’t know what the algorithm wants. I don’t know what magic algorithm gods want. What makes it happy? I have no idea. And then I the more that I do it, the more I’m like, There’s no rhyme or reason. I like my little formula that I have. I like my little sign on and I sign off. And I’m like, I’m just gonna keep doing my thing. Because honestly, if you get too obsessed and all that, it’s like, yeah.

Phil Rickaby
It’s hard because you put something out into the world. And there’s a moment you It’s hard not to be like, how’s it doing? And so watch, like, how many people are watching it? And then you know how many people are watching it or whatever the reaction is. And I it’s hard to and I don’t usually look at the stats for this show. But it’s hard at first, I was like the first few episodes, maybe the first 100 I put it out and I would sit there refreshing for watching. And it’s so unhealthy.

Janine Marley
Yeah, one of my one of my partner’s friends. She said to me once and they were over. We’re having like a party and she says to me, she goes, Oh my God, how are you not just like checking your stats and everything all the time. I said, Girl Who says I’m in hostess mode right now. So the phone is away. The minute y’all leave, it’ll be the first thing that I look at, because it is like, I get up in the morning. And I’m like, Okay, let’s see how many views like my blog talked out i Yesterday, just because like I want to know. And it’s but ya know, I have to remind myself that my social analytics, I can totally get all of that, like, I’m signed up as a business account or whatever on all of my social so I can see all of that. And I’ve tried to actively remember that it doesn’t exist. Because yes, it’ll just be that refresher thing you constantly not unless something notifies me. Oh, hey, that’s real. Got 800? Like, no way. Great. Cool, then I read attention, but honestly, can’t do it.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, if you fall down that you’ll like have that one that suddenly goes like 19, whatever, like 200 views, and you’re like, Okay, so let’s try fine. Let’s see if I could do that again. And that is you will obsess over this one thing and become less and less authentic as you try to match whatever that was and you’ll never do it again.

Janine Marley
No, I’m not there. And so it’s not yeah, like I say, I tried to tick tock it sucks for that because it’s right there on your profile when you go to look, it’s like in your face. But so I try not to obsess over that part of it. And just hope that and I think is if I’m building my audience more steadily than that, it’s going to make me happier than anything else, right the views and everything that felt so fickle that you obsess over that part for me it’s have I gained three more followers as one cool Great.

Phil Rickaby
Speaking of bigger audience, I know that you recently launched a Patreon and that’s a huge step in any creators. Time. How long ago did you launch that and what can people expect to see on your Patreon?

Janine Marley
In brand spankin new I just started this up this month, because Okay, so I left my full time job back in June so that I could throw myself into fringe that was absolutely worth it. I regret nothing. It’s just that now it’s finding ways to keep up with rent and the fact that gas goes up every single day and everything costs a lot. The I’m hoping that the Patreon will be able to just help me cover some basic excise Instead of so that I can keep doing this full time, because what I want to provide, like what I’m expecting to be able to get to my lovely patrons, first of all, like right off the bat, I’m going to be able to be writing more giving them extra pieces, I got this sort of piece, it’s entitled three days later. And it’s like my deeper thoughts about the show, less like reviewing more analytical about what I’m seeing stuff that and something. Yeah, that’s literally still kicking around in my brain a couple days after I’ve seen a show, because I find that sometimes the conversations that I have, after a show with people or with my partner are amazing, and all the thoughts are great, but it’s boiler cities, you can’t really I don’t want to put that in a review, I want you to go and experience it, it’s like come check it on my Patreon. And we can have a great conversation about it. Early Access to Mike stagedoor dialogues interviews, which I’ve actually had, I’m getting more of an influx in interviews, which is making you really happy because it’s something that I want to do. And it’s great to help the companies promote what’s going on. And especially for things that I can’t make it to, because there’s just so much to have an interview where I’ve gotten to talk to people about what’s going on and everything, it’s a great way to still have my readers get to interact with the people involved. And then I’m hoping at some point to get to do audio interviews, and then they’d have, you know, access to the full extended editions of all of that kind of good stuff. Yeah, I’ve been, I’ve just taken some time putting together some different packages and stuff. I’m hoping to get merged, like actual physical, like cute pins, buttons, stickers, that kind of fun stuff. We’re looking into all of that. It’s really exciting. I’m hoping that a lot of people are gonna want to come on this journey with me, because it’s been, it’s certainly been life changing. Even just in the couple of months, that I’ve been doing this full time that I can’t wait for that to keep growing

Phil Rickaby
those interviews, I’m sure that you felt the pressure of wanting to be able to support all of the shows. Right? Everybody sends you their press release. And you want everybody who’s who contacts you you wish you could like, review their show, we’re give them the promotion that they’re asking for. But there’s only so many hours in the day. And I get that I’m on I’m a weekly podcast, there’s only so many shows that I can get on here. And it happens all the time where there, I just can’t get to everybody. So it’s good to have something where you could be like, I can’t review this show. But here’s an interview with people. Yeah. And that’s actually

Janine Marley
part of the reason why I started like my waiting in the wings and beyond the blog posts as well as like, waiting in the wings is okay, here’s what you can expect to see my writing about this month. And so it’s everything that I say yes, you want to try to make these like living documents as much as I can like where I’ll update if I get a late invite to something or I magically can go to something and then I can switch things around. I’ll change it around. But then beyond the boxes, okay, so here’s what else is going on community, here’s what I had been made aware of, by a fortunately can make it to, but check it out, see if it’s happening. And I find that when I post those things, it’s always within the first couple of days of the month, I tried to make it the first now it’ll be able to be the first is like, in the past, it’s been like within the first week of the month, I will get this out. And people are looking at both in equal measure. And that always makes me really happy because then it means that there, there’s at least eyes being set on these other events. And even if I can’t make it to, there are people who are already interested in Toronto theatre, dance, music, whatever, who are that at least gonna see that? Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
And that’s huge, especially now, like we were mentioning about the ecosystem of theatre writing in the city, and you’re looking under the only one of the newspapers really has a full time theatre reviewer. And their job is Canada, which is no candidate here, which and occasionally they go to New York and they refuse shows there. So they have a huge beat. Whereas other other publications have freelancers and things like that. And but that’s not that. Freelancer can’t cover theatre the way a full time person can. They don’t have as much like freedom as much editorial control or editorial editorial anything. And so it’s really hard with in the city to get the word out about shows, I think lots of people who are producing shows are like, I don’t know how I’m going to tell people about this show because almost nobody’s writing about theatre, and it’s important to have as many voices as possible, even though most of those voices are moving online, like yourself and Glenn, sue me and all of the other blogs that are writing about theatre here. How do you feel? What’s your feeling about that? Theatre writing ecosystem? How What’s your sense and especially having been through fringe and meeting a bunch of the reviewers? How do you feel about what that looks like now?

Janine Marley
Yeah, it’s definitely you can tell the shift you can tell the difference. And there’s also I don’t know it’s it’s interesting as one of the new kids on the wall. It’s interesting to see who is like the established people All right, like the folks who have been either running their blog or who work for a paper or consistently freelance for the same publications, that kind of stuff, how they interact with shows versus then how those of us who are newer to things or who maybe only do it part time or whatever, I like how the where we all are like, it’s interesting when you go to an opening night, and you look around and it’s okay, so who all is here? Because like now I’d like know, I know who people are. So I’m looking for Okay, yeah, is Glenn here. Okay. Yeah, Glenn’s down the way for me, where’s actually like, I can find my people that I know. But then it’s interesting when you go to smaller openings, like I love going to like these little itty bitty independent theatre productions. And sometimes I’m the only gal with a notepad in the room. And I’m like, Who am I ever glad that I made time for this, because I might be the only words, but these lovely humans get about this. And that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to stay as independent as I can and just keep working on my own thing, rather than trying to seek out like full time employment, because I do freelance for innovation, shout out to intermission magazine, I love freelancing for them. Um, I want to have the opportunity to look at those tiny shows and not have to worry about basically, my only barrier from getting to something is can I physically be in the room or have I already been asked to be elsewhere. And I want that to continue to be my only barrier to it. Because there are so many tiny productions that are phenomenal. And they’re not going to get that coverage. Because if you have to pass it through three different editors or whatever, or yeah, you’re already supposed to be in Calgary or wherever the heck you’re not going to be able to be in Toronto to see all of the all of this stuff. And there’s just the vast amount of theatre that happens jokes in this city. And even just on an indie level is so huge, like you can you can cut off even just with the some of the bigger like Mirvish and some of the other like bigger or like mid range theatres, I’d still be super busy. Otherwise, I know a bunch of stuff I saw be swamped. And that’s because there’s just literally that much going on. And I was saying,

Phil Rickaby
I don’t get a lot of publicity. You don’t do a lot of stuff with Mirvish. But they’re gonna be fine. They don’t need it. They’re fine. Um, but those little companies they need every indie company needs as much word of mouth as possible. They’ve probably put the rent on the line that month just to get a show done. It’s pretty wild.

Janine Marley
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Been there, done that. Yeah. And that’s, I think, I guess it’s part of where my love for that GM is I’ve done that. I’ve done the whole like, okay, so this $300, which is the only money basically that I asked, this is going into my show, please. Yeah, let me make that back. And that later, or Sunday, we’re live, I can pay my actor, like, there were days. And I know that there’s a lot of companies that function this way to add fringe or outside of it, where it’s if I get to pay my actors, even if it’s five bucks, it’s like, cool, I paid my actors. I’m like I did good. So you’re, it’s hard. It’s hard out there. And I can’t even imagine, like I was producing Theatre in a very small city, which is hard enough, when you’re trying to get people to come out. But then you’ve got Toronto, which is massive. But then that means that there’s that many more things that people could be doing on any given night, and you’re trying to get them to come to your show. So I can help that in any way, whether it’s on social media, or through my word or whatever. I’m so thankful to do it. Because like, I have been there, I know how it feels and intimidating as all get out. So I’m glad to help be a voice and pump up their stuff. Yes, it’s absolutely fantastic stuff.

Phil Rickaby
I don’t think we’ve had enough Pat people on the back enough for having done the thing, whether it’s fringe or self producing, or whatever it is, you did the thing. You put it on stage. And that’s something to be proud of

Janine Marley
salutely Because what people don’t see and don’t understand, is the months or sometimes like a year or more of planning, leading up to that point. And the tape like not even just yeah, like the tailoring the rehearsal process, finding venues finding sponsors. Do we have money to do this fundraiser? Sure. Like I’ve got friends who, you know, they’re running cabarets, and trivia nights and whatever, just make enough money, hopefully, to get themselves in a position where cool than whatever we make from the office is just gonna go to the actors, but that’s always holding our breath and with our fingers crossed, because those events have to run well for then your main stage show to run well, and it’s exhausting. I think people understand how much work goes into them opening night. Yeah, finally, yeah, you did the thing. And you put in so much time into just doing that they, that it’s Yeah, that’s

Phil Rickaby
absolutely. Absolutely. I want to go back to so When you see a lot of things, there’s a lot of thinking back on the shows that you see. Sometimes I don’t know about you if you find this, but I’ll look back and be like, so what were the shows that I saw last year? Like actually physically saw, and I can’t remember them all. Some of them blur together.

Janine Marley
Yep. I’m like, I’m laughing this hard only because I literally did that like this past weekend, because I was trying to talk to somebody about another show that I had seen. I was like, I saw it. And I had to go back. Four days ago, I’m sorry, because so much had happened in the intervening four days that I was like, Oh, God, when did I go see that? But yeah, that’s why the notebooks exist for me, is because yeah, you get to a point where you’re like, I’ve seen so much just in the past month, and then I’ll start counting. Okay, so I can’t do it as much. Like, why is that? Oh my god. And then you go back and you’re like, oh, what’s technically this month? Look at? It’s crazy. I see. I used to think that I saw a lot of theatre. I thought it did a pretty darn good job.

Phil Rickaby
Here’s the question. The Toronto fringe is just a month or so ago. What shows do you remember? from Toronto fringe?

Janine Marley
Okay, okay. I really liked the woman have a falafel? I’m talking about mail ordered earlier. So there we go. We got corporate Finch. Good Old Days that you gotta you were talking about before about that? Um,

Phil Rickaby
look, if you just remember for shows, that’s no, that’s not terrible. Because when you cram so many into your brain, there’s only so much you’re gonna be able to remember.

Janine Marley
Would that okay, hold on. I have 23andme. To me as a goal. There’s a big one, like, includes the agenda. They’re sick. But that’s still like less than a third of what I’ve seen. So that’s terrible. Edie? No, like, you’re not memorable. It’s just like, sometimes at the end of the day, you forgot what you’ve seen at the beginning of the day, because you’re at show number five, right? And you’re just like, Oh, heck, I did see that this morning. It is it’s a wild thing. I don’t know where it all goes in my brain. But you’re right. Like, you have

Phil Rickaby
to dump it out. mishmash has to ghost, you have to dump it out. Because there’s only next week, you’re gonna see a bunch more shows. And you can’t be thinking of those other shows. And I don’t know about you, if I’m if it’s Yeah, if I see five shows in a day, don’t talk to me after that fifth show. If I’m like going from morning till night, no. Yeah, like, if you’re like expecting to Chipperfield at the end of that day, it’s not happening because there’s nothing.

Janine Marley
No, there was a day where I had a show that I had chosen to review for intermission. But what I didn’t realise is that it was only like four performances. And they all started after nine o’clock. And I live in North York. So no matter what venue I was at even terragon is still a solid, like half an hour almost away from me. And this was downtown at a factory. And I was like, Oops, okay, but I’m so glad that I did it because it was great. But like it ended my show started at 945. So like, I wasn’t in the car until Ray, maybe 11 o’clock. So I got home. I remember I turned the key into my door at midnight, and I’m going I’ve been out of this house for 12 hours solid. Oh my God and my partner. Bless him. I guess. As long as your bed there was no words. Yeah. Hi, honey. Take the bag off. I have emptied out nothing. I just went and just flopped on the bed in my clothes. And he’s just long day. Yeah. And I can’t even be mad because I’ve done it to myself.

Phil Rickaby
Right? You set that schedule. You did it to yourself.

Janine Marley
I did this to me. I had to routinely say that to myself. Dragonframe. But you did this to you. And this is your dream. You go on plane. Just have more coffee. Yeah. And I remember

Phil Rickaby
years ago, just I think people who read the reviews don’t think about how much goes into all of that. But I remember years ago, this is pre internet. This is now magazine wasn’t online, it was just print and it was just John Kaplan. So it was early days of fringe. And I saw him outside of the theatre, which might have been the dance one that nobody uses anymore down on St. George Street Theatre or whatever. And I saw him okay, out front of that theatre unfold this piece of paper that was like all these papers put together which was a grid, that he’d created his own grid of shows and what theatre, he could figure out how to go from show to show. And that’s, you know, that’s the kind of dedication it takes to do this kind of thing, especially like when he was like writing for now and trying to review as many things as possible. I don’t know how he found time to actually write it.

Janine Marley
No it is it’s a lot I like the day after I got my like the physical like the fringe guide that was the most intense like two hours of my life trying to plan everything because the first of all I’m going through my emails I’m seeing what I’ve been invited you highlighting those I started with the index in the back, I’m like, Okay, we’re gonna start at the back, we’re gonna move our way through the red, because I need to figure out how many of I’ve been invited to then I can stopped my partner and I was like, Okay, tell me what shows you want to come to based off of what I’ve got invited to. So then I knew Okay, those shows have to be like after six or on the weekend. Okay, good. And then it was like scheduling it. Okay, so what am I reviewing for intermission though should be front loaded. And by the time I got done like I literally went to the opening night party, a people like so what are you seeing? I said, No, I have no idea. Like I just scheduled everything I have bought all my tickets and my brain just which like an etch a sketch. And it is gone now. I have no clue. I will consult the magic book every morning and see where it says that I am supposed to be and yes, there are some days where you realise Oh, crud I need you across the city in half an hour. God I hope that UTC is working today. Or you just take a live because like I had to take a left about three times because I was like, Oops, I was ambitious and so on so now I’m gonna have to pay for it and you just you do what you got to do. I feel it I was sitting there in my my poor little book was practically destroyed before I even got it in my bag. Because I’m having to like, flip from the front to the back. Okay, how long is this show until like, try to find the pages. It is a marathon but for me I like having it i with Mr. Kaplan on that one. I like having a physical thing in front of me. I can’t do it on the website. Too many colours too many things. I’m way overstimulated. And I’m like, Oh, no. Like, my brain just goes, we can’t do that. We need it in a book in front of us. We have highlighters. Yeah, highlighter, colours will mean different things. You can

Phil Rickaby
look at the website all you want, but to me it’s not fringe until I have that book. And it’s I’m not planning until I’m starting to flip through because sometimes I go in I’m like, what shows are gonna jump out at me because there’s shows that I need to see and there’s shows that I can’t watch shows jump out at me and those get a circle and all that sort of stuff and you go through, but then once I’ve made the decision, it goes into my Google calendar. And that runs my life for the entire time. And to hopefully I’ve gotten all my timing like you said, it’s

Janine Marley
yeah, I’m yeah, you just yeah, you hope that you haven’t already did it? Where I didn’t realise it. Yeah, I thought it was 60. No, thankfully, I only had to get between Factory Theatre customer I. So that is like a five minute walk. So I was like, Okay, I need this show to not go 19 minutes, and I need this show to start late. And thank God, they both did. I have not walked that fast in my life. But I made it and like I slipped in it. I like totally flipped in order to reserve seats, but it was like it was black performance of James and James Z. Okay, so there we go. There’s no I remember, I went to lighting it and let the volunteer was just sitting more than matter. And I was like, thank you. Like they could tell I was out of breath. My God. I mean it up those stairs. I was out of breath. I like sat in and like the light went down. What was that? But again, you can’t It’s just I clearly somewhere in that two hours of panic where I was getting I miss rhetoric if you

Phil Rickaby
don’t know, a little box, and then you’re standing in line, and they’re doing the speech and somebody says this show is 90 minutes and you’re like,

Janine Marley
No, I plan on this being 16. So, now what, okay, no bathroom break. No bathroom break time, like don’t perform it. Better. Yeah. Oh, god. No. It was a crazy adventure this year. But at the same time, I got done. And I felt so satisfied. Because what I hadn’t done for most days was I planned myself in writing time in the morning. Like, I didn’t really start my days until 1130 12 o’clock at the earliest. So that of like, Get up, get my phone out the door like usual. And then write about yesterday stuff. So that then you can shake it out of your head, okay, it’s gone. It’s good. And now get myself ready to get out the door get ready for a new day of adventure. And that worked. Actually, most days the only day I couldn’t do that was show to go to so of course there aren’t really o’clock in the morning. So but like for the most part that is the nice part about being in control. My schedule is that I could keep on top of things until basically like the last weekend and then I was exhausted. And so I posted like the last two days of stuff. Yeah, like at the same time. But other than that, when I actually look back at what I accomplished, because like at the time, it’s a blur and you’re like, What am I doing? You I look back and I’m like, Cool, I straight up how’s it been? 10 days in a row? Yeah, I’ve never done that before and then gained a whole bunch of new followers. My view count was crazy because it was able to keep up. Like every single day with what I was doing. And I had to limit myself I tried to I was like, okay, each review is only going to be like 300 words, if so that we can pump it out, get it out, and away we go. And it worked for the most part. So I’m happy and it’s always isn’t like the first time getting to do it full on. Cool. I learned a lesson. We learned a lot of things. And so we’ll just apply it to next year when it comes to round and every break. And one day, we’ll just be old pros at this and we will remember to eat we’re gonna I’m gonna remember that for next year, though that I need to like, text you to be like,

Phil Rickaby
it’s it’s amazing. It’s the thing that always falls by the wayside. I’m just looking at schedule. How much time to do this. So see this show gets the next theatre see that show gets the next theatre? And then at some point, you’re like, why am I hangry? That was a good show. Oh.

Janine Marley
Yeah. Oh, I haven’t anything to eat. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then you’re just like begging somebody at a concession stand. Please. I just need to chip Please let me in the theatre. I’m gonna die. Oh, yeah. 100%. So

Phil Rickaby
now that summer’s over this is this. There’s a slight lull in the theatre calendar at this time. And but then once September hits after Labour Day, it’s going to steadily increase. Are there things in the that you already are looking forward to this fall?

Janine Marley
Absolutely. Right now. So yeah, it’s there’s a little bit of a lull, but last week, I think I did. I did four shows in a row, and then had one night off, and then did another couple shows. So like, there’s a lot of outdoor things going on right now, which is like a lot of fun. And I’m trying to like face out and then just pray that the weather cooperates because it did not cooperate for me, for Shaffer, and hi farke. So now I’m here to book something for outdoors. But for the fall, I actually I’m already reading sideways, the city that Google couldn’t buy in preparation for the master plan at crows. He says a book that already my partner and I were interested in. And so I’m like, Cool. Now it’s for now it’s for my business. So here we go. Let’s I’m like, I get dibs on it first now, which is great. So I’m born through it. But I am flying through that book. And it is it’s incredible. So yeah, I’m really looking forward to that. I’m looking forward to the inheritance as well, which is on Akhand stage later on in the fall. Oh, and then also crows. Oh, Natasha, Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812. Right? Yeah, I’m super looking forward to that. Because I remember when I was, like, come from way on Broadway, right, like the big one next door. So I’m really looking forward to seeing that and some nice, friendly faces to intro theatres. Like, I’m excited about people that I normally would see in Stratford are going to be here during the fall and winter this year, and Oh, happy to get to see them. So yeah, it’ll be a lot of fun. I’m trying to think I’m really trying to think of who else is one or the other. There’s been like, five press releases a day. That’s

Phil Rickaby
because this is announcement season for all everybody’s seasons are telling us what’s coming up next year.

Janine Marley
And so then it’s like, I lose track. But see, I also I like getting the little like secret gods for everything. I bought like a stack of them now. I have my death. like it’d be like, oh, yeah, what do I have coming up? No. Can you from native Earth performing arts as well, I think it’s gonna be awesome. The opera scene and like the sort of the crossover that’s been happening a lot between opera and theatre has been awesome, and has afforded me some like really cool opportunity to get a review for it as well, which I’ve never thought that would be like on my plate. And I love it. It’s been spectacular. So yeah, but it’s just a few of the ones that I’ve been excited about coming across. Sign me through my inbox.

Phil Rickaby
Janine, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate this. It’s been a pleasure chatting with you.

Janine Marley
Thank you so much. Well, I was so excited when he asked me.

Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcasts, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings help new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod. And you can find the website with the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at PhilRickaby. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com See you next week for another episode of stay