#377 – Glenn Sumi

Glenn Sumi is a Toronto-based freelance writer and editor who recently launched the theatre website So Sumi. Until December 2022, he was a writer and editor at NOW Magazine for 25 years, where he wrote about theatre, comedy and film.

www.goaheadsumi.com
Twitter: @glennsumi
Instagram: @sosumiig

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Transcript

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Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years, but I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.

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Glenn Sumi is a Toronto based arts writer and editor specialising in theatre. He was a writer at Toronto’s now magazine covering theatre, comedy and film for 25 years. Recently, he launched his own theatre website, so Sumi, where he reviews and writes about Toronto Theatre. In this conversation, we talk about what drew him to reviewing theatre, his early days at now, the Toronto theatre scene in general, and much more. Here’s our conversation

the best place for us to start would just simply be what what what is it that drew you to to reviewing?

Glenn Sumi
Wow, I know I’ve been doing it for so long. I’ve always had a lot of opinions. And I remember, I remember like, even in high school, people just saying, you know, you have too many opinions. Or you’re almost like it was a bad thing. And I think when I figured out that you could actually, people made a living doing it. Like it took me a while I just didn’t really you know, you don’t really understand how the world works and what real jobs are. More, it’s reading the Toronto Star. And it was like the TV critic, I think Jim Baden, and I just thought, wow, this is his job. This is what he does for a living like, I love watching TV. I love I love watching movies. So that was always in the back of my head. And then, you know, I guess when I went to university, I went to U of T, started writing for the student newspaper, and just thought, I guess this is how you do it. They had a bunch of like, people out in the real world who would come talk to us and tell them tell us what, you know, their jobs were like, oh, you know what, this sounds? This sounds really interesting. Like, like, why not? Like, I love going to plays, I love seeing movies. I love watching TV. And I And again, I had so many opinions, so why not see if I could do it? What I didn’t realise was that, you know, they’re really even back then. And we’re talking, you know, like, over a couple of decades ago, there were there were a handful of full time jobs where you can make a decent living doing this. And now of course, it’s just like, if you think count, you can count the number of jobs, full time jobs, I guess, for arts critics, probably on one hand in the country. Yeah. Um, so I think I, you know, like I got, I, I worked at student newspaper, which was great practice and because it was in Toronto to I ended up dealing with a lot of the publicist in theatre, that I would eventually you know, deal with, when I was so called professional.

Phil Rickaby
So, getting started in that way. You know, that, you know, having so many opinions and having, you know, you know, at the at the student newspaper, what took it to the next step because, you know, like you said, not everybody gets to take their He is and have them published. So what what took you to, to the next level out of the newspaper?

Glenn Sumi
I guess I just I guess I just started freelancing, you know, which is ironic, because that’s what I’m doing now. No, it’s like, I’ve come full circle, baby. Um, but I just, you know, was starting out and doing whatever, like I was writing about anything, not not just the arts, like, I was just trying to pay the bills. So word would get out along my freelance, or among my freelance friends that oh, you know, there’s this publication called, what was it called, things called Family Practice, I think, a scene or whatever. And it was a magazine that I’ve, you know, like family doctors would subscribe to, and that, you know, it was like, really was like, Great glossy paper, paper, like tonnes of pharmaceutical ads and everything so and they paid really well. And so I remember writing for them reading a few articles for them, like pitching for them. But so it’s just like, basically anything that could pay in any medium to I did radio spots, I did these live radio spots on the CPC show called real time. When this must have been like, in the late 90s, or so, where I would go out to things and just sort of basically report on them, like pretty much live, I think there was a little bit of a delay. But but but live and so that was like, really, really exciting. I wrote for like, I’ve eventually did end up writing for like TV Guide, like magazines and things. extra magazine was one of my first professional gigs. I wrote about books. And then And then, you know, and after, I had been doing that for awhile, that there was an ad for a theatre writer at now magazine, so that would have been in 97. And that really changed my life. So yeah,

Phil Rickaby
yeah. Now, you were you were writing about all of these things. And were you were you also reviewing reviewing movies? Did you get to review TV shows? Like what was? What were the early days of your, your reviewing history? Like?

Glenn Sumi
No, you know, I mean, as a freelancer or somebody coming, you know, from the outside, I realised, I mean, you have to realise that most outlets are going to have a full time, at least one full time critic on those beats. So really, if you were trying to, if you’re trying to pitch a newspaper, or a newspaper, you would have to come up with some angle that you know that that the, the house critic didn’t have. So for instance, what was it I remember? Yeah, I think early on, I was going to, I found that there was like a young theatre critics conference in Strasburg, France. So I applied to that while I was still a young theatre critic, which is totally fascinating. And you got to see like theatre from all over the world, which is one of the things that I do miss about theatre in Toronto, these days, we really don’t get exposed to that much international theatre. But I knew that I was going to that. So I lined up carob right. I called CBC Radio. And so I did a spot on that for them on this international conference. And something else to I think I did some did something for one of the dailies, but, but it had to be sort of something you couldn’t just pitch like a review of this, you know? Because the house critic would, would, you know, that it would be there’s, so you always had to be thinking of a different way of a different angle, or whatever. I mean, I think I think things are different now, just because so many, so many outlets, don’t have like, perhaps a full time critic, so And there’s more of an interest in, in people’s experiences. So, you know, if I pitch an editor and say, Well, you know, I have I don’t I don’t know, I mean, you know, there’s this movie about Maria calles or something coming up, I think next year and I know a lot about her so I would you know, that would that would go a long way to me getting it but back then it was really tough. And I remember to trying to trying to use whatever specialties I had, and sort of being discouraged by some editors to I remember one editor said I said you know, I can cover LGBTQ you know, But TV shows or films or whatever and Asian theme things. And he said, you know, you really shouldn’t. You shouldn’t limit yourself to that. I thought, Oh, interesting. I mean, times have really changed because now, I mean, I’ve been an editor as well. I mean, I would love that kind of special specialty like somebody’s bringing that, especially if it’s a voice, or, you know, an underrepresented voice or marginalised voice. I would think that would add some sort of authenticity to the section. Whereas back then, early, not late 90s, early aughts, it was yeah, it was a tougher sell.

Phil Rickaby
With the, you mentioned, you know, having opinions. And, you know, it’s important for a theatre critic to have opinions, but you know, a lot of us have opinions, and we don’t write them down and publish them. Because I don’t think that you can just like write down your opinions. I think there’s, there’s obviously more, more to it. There’s analysis, there’s things like that. So how do you how did you learn to go from just having opinions to really analysing and laying out? Like, a thesis about a play? Or? Or, or a comedy show or anything like that? What, how did that come about? For you?

Glenn Sumi
Yeah, that’s a really good question. I mean, I mean, I think it’s just, it, it’s all about seeing as much as possible. Um, you know, like, you really, I remember to, like my editors, editors that I had now magazine, they would joke about young writers or new writers, people who who hadn’t reviewed that much, and they would come in, and they would instantly give something like five ends. Now magazine, we use this end system, or one end, so they would be so extreme. And, and a lot of it was just because they hadn’t seen that much. So they really hadn’t sort of sifted through, you know, I guess, you know, dozens, hundreds and hundreds of things. So you really do see, you know, what deserves that five? And like I you know, I remember giving out some five and things that I think in retrospect, probably didn’t deserve them, but they somehow squeak through? Um, I mean, yeah, it’s like, Phil, it’s one of the hardest things in the world. Yeah, to come up with, to come up with an argument about, well, first of all, to try to understand what an artist is trying to do, you know, and make it and you’re not writing for the artists necessarily to but you want to do it justice, you’re writing for readers, you’re writing for people who, you know, might go to a show. But to set it up in an interesting way and a lively way, so that it’s good reading. And, you know, I mean, I remember a science friend said to me, I think he was watching while I was writing review, or going through it or tearing up my hair or something, well, when I still did have hair, he was saying, Wow, this is like, it is like math, or it’s like science, like you have to provide a logical you have to provide a logical reason, or, you know, there’s, there’s logical thought that goes into this, you can’t just start analysing things right off the bat, right? Like, you have to bring them in, in a way you have to, you know, with your lead. And you also, that’s your chance of bringing in somebody who might not I’m talking about, you know, in the days of old newspaper, real newspapers, you might attract somebody with, you know, your opening sentence, who might not even be interested in theatre who might not write about it. So, you know, that’s, that’s ticks, ticks, a lot of work. And then once you have them, you have to, like, set up the premise or, you know, what do you think the play is about? And give a bit of give a bit of synopsis, but not too much. You don’t want to give everything away? And then get into, you know, and then get into some specifics, but they’re really, you know, I mean, that makes it sound formulaic, but it’s but it’s really not each piece sort of has a different way will demand a different sort of approach. But it’s the can be hard work. And you know, the ones that are really hard are the ones that are right in the middle are the ones where you don’t really feel strongly, like you didn’t love it, you didn’t hate it. But there are some good things and you know, there’s some things that don’t quite work. And those are often the hardest ones to write just because you really don’t feel strongly about it. And so how does, how can you make that sound interesting, like in grid? Yeah. So often I find myself really struggling with those. And again, really amazing things like fantastic like, something like Roberto posh is lip sync, everything is works so perfectly that you can’t even single things out like to do that is to do it is not to do it justice. It’s an it’s like sounds mechanical and this you know, I mean, this thing just works so organically that you don’t even want to analyse the parts. But you know, again, you have to find some sort of way to, to talk about it. So, yeah, I don’t know. I mean, it just, it’s, it’s just difficult as it was before. But now I think there are sort of tricks. And now I know, okay, if I sit with this for long enough, something will come to me. And of course, I’ve just seen 100 1000s 1000s of things. So I kind of have ways of getting into pieces, but every now and then there will be something that just really stumped me.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, there are reasons, plenty of reasons not for somebody like me not to not to write reviews, I’m not particularly good at listen, I can slag a show I don’t like you know, and that’s, I think anybody can do it, right? If you don’t like a show, you can find all kinds of things to say about that show. And even like, sometimes I’ll watch a show, and I don’t like it. So then I start to try to like, why isn’t it working for me? And I’m thinking about that sort of thing. And so that’s, in some ways, like you were saying about about, you know, a show, that’s really good. You can leave a show, that’s really good. And just like, just repeat, yeah, it’s so good. It’s so good. But that’s not a review, you know, and so it’s actually harder. And and of course, those mediocre shows, so shows in the middle. You don’t know what to say about those? Yeah. Again, you mentioned seeing 1000s upon 1000s of shows. And now in the days when you were writing for now, I assume that that shows were assigned to you, between yourself and John Kaplan.

Glenn Sumi
Yeah, I mean, John was really great about that. And he didn’t she, you know, he didn’t say, oh, I want these or whatever. And then you can you can take, you can take right or I don’t want we would always just it would just go back and forth. Like, you know, what do you feel like saying or, you know, and I think that’s really rare. Yeah. So and only occasionally, because he had, he did have some really good friends in the theatre. And you know, that’s a whole other topic. But only occasionally would He say, oh, you know, I’m really close to, you know, a couple of people in this cast. Do you mind reviewing that? That would be fine. Of course. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
I think that’s the right choice, though. Like, like, I know, a bunch people on this show, I don’t feel I can be biassed somebody else. I can’t be unbiased. Because I know these people, some you should do it. And that seems like the the ethical choice for reviewing the show.

Glenn Sumi
Yeah, no, that was great. And but again, you know, not as often as I thought. So I would say maybe a dozen times. And, you know, in however, you know, in the decades that we work together, did he ask that? And it was fine. Because you know, ultimately, I mean, he saw more than probably anybody else did in the city. It’s true. But But ultimately, I would probably have got around to it anyway. And you know, those I do miss those days of working? Not? Yeah, I’ve working at now and also having John there but also having freelancers. So other people could cover could cover shows. And that’s one of the things that I’ve had to sort of adjust to with the, with the blog, and the newsletter that has started that is just having to, I guess weigh in on everything. Whereas before I didn’t have to add to it was stupid. I didn’t even think about this, I thought Why am I so why am I so burnt out happened like a couple of months ago. And it’s just like, because I would see the same number of shows, but I wouldn’t have to necessarily write about them. Because it’s just me here. I kind of have to weigh in. So I think going forward, I may not do that. So I may just choose better or choose choose what to write about more carefully. But But again, who knows? I mean, you know, I do have things to say I do like supporting these smaller theatres too. So if there’s a way if I can, you know, it just maybe not right, as long on some of them. But it did that was a surprise when it sort of kicked in. And I thought oh, yes, because I would usually review a couple of things a week, but I would see more and you know, I would just see them I would catch up on them and see if if my colleagues had really liked them. You know, and I catch them throughout the run. I wouldn’t necessarily have to see them on an opening week or whatever.

Phil Rickaby
Now that you are writing, you know, you’re onto your own website. And you know, there’s there is far too much in this city that’s going on for one person to see. How do you make the choice about what it is that you you do go to see and what you can’t fit into the schedule?

Glenn Sumi
Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean, I’ve started, a couple of outlets have asked me to review for them. So I’ve been doing this freelance stuff. So that is often in the mix. And so even if I’ve booked something, if a publication asked me to review, I’ll probably change it just so that I can get paid for it. But I do try to see everything if I don’t, if it’s up to, you know, one show, and something else. And somebody’s seen somebody that I trust has seen it sometimes I’ll slip into or slide into their DMS and ask them, Hey, is it worth? It? No. But I bet yeah, I mean, again, I have like a couple of decades of practice doing this, like, so, you know, you find out when the run is you have little tricks, like, you know, one of the matinees, I’ve even gone into, like, student matinees, sometimes, like during the week, if I have like, a week day, I, I’ve asked before, hey, do you think I could go to that, you know, because nights are precious, you know, I mean, nights ever, all the shows are on So, um, so things like, you know, Saturday matinees since Sunday night, sometimes if I was have that, it’s like, that’s pretty rare. Um, but, but, you know, I miss things like, you know, readings and things like, sometimes readings are on like, on Monday night or so, yeah. And I really do miss going to comedy, like I remember, you know, pre pandemic, I would sometimes, like, on the weekend, I would go to a play. And then like, a late night comedy show or something, and then sometimes even a late night film after that. And I think because of the nature of the comedy clubs, they’re just so small, and, and I’m still trying to be COVID cautious. Yeah, I just haven’t gone to them. I’ve gone to the big ones. But, and also because you know, these comedy places exist to you by serving drinks and food. It’s just like, nobody’s masked, let me know. Yeah, nobody’s math in the theatre anyway, these days, but I’m pretty much always masked at the theatre just because, you know, I go to so many. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, I don’t want to be fooled by this thing. But But I really do miss the comedy. I miss sort of, you know, these packed like sardines into a small Comedy Club. Like I, I miss that a lot.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, yeah. There’s, there’s something magical about those spaces, both in this like a small theatre space when magic is happening. And also in a comedy space where something amazing is like happening, and the audience is like, really on fire. And those are like those rare special moments right. Now, I have to say, and, you know, I’m not going to talk about like, all the stuff that happened, and now magazine, but I want to say that during the period, you know, through the, the 2020 through two when you started your own blog. On behalf of the theatre community, the fact that you were still writing for now, and reviewing meant a lot. And I know that a lot of people who are listening to this right now were shaking, or nodding their heads, because it was very much appreciated that even though all of that stuff was going down, that you were still seeing stuff and writing about it. So thank you for that. No,

Glenn Sumi
thanks. I mean that, especially last year, when after we weren’t being paid. You know, and people had been taking sort of volunteer layoff to get EI I remember thinking, oh, you know, what I’m going to look at, I’m going to look at this site as almost as like a personal blog, personal theatre blog, because I’ll still because at that point, you know, like, in March 2022, right, theatre started up again, like, it was gradual, but you know, they, there was a lot to see. So, I started I just thought, you know, I’m not getting paid, but let I think I had it in the back of my mind that eventually, I would, I would begin something on my own. I probably should have done a lot earlier. But this sort of gave me the practice and I tried out certain ways of covering things like, you know, not having a post per show, but I would round up something cuz I round up two or three shows and have one post about that. Um, and it was just a way to get into the rhythm of doing that. So I think it, it really helped us. But But again, you know, Phil, it’s not like film or you could, you know, you can catch up when it comes out on Blu ray are no, okay, it’s like, theatre is going to be gone like this after this 1010 day run or three week run, you’re not going to see it again. And if it does come back, if it does do well, and somebody remounted this, it’s not going to be the same, the cast isn’t gonna be the same energy, the space might even be bigger. So there’s always that you know, because there’s just the the FOMO of it all, you know, well, if I miss this, it could be quite, it could be gone forever. So, you know, that has sort of been drilled into me. And so I remember thinking, Oh, I should, I should see this, I should see this, I should write about it. So I wasn’t even real. And you know, and we didn’t know then that we wouldn’t be paid for, what, six, seven months or so. Right? So it was just, it was just what I knew. And I And again, I feel a loyalty to this to this community. It’s like, well, I followed, I followed some of these artists, you know, all their career like, generations. So, you know, and if you lose that, it’s, I don’t I mean, ultimate. Yeah, I mean, I just it was I just wanted to continue doing what I was doing, just because there was so much else that was changing. And I was so grateful to for live theatre to be coming back that I was, I was excited about it.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah. And that feeling you describe like something like, once it’s closed, it’s gone. Like, there’s so many things that, you know, I’ve seen that I’ve tried to describe to somebody and tried to, like capture the magic of it for somebody. And all I could say is like, it was pretty amazing. And there’s no way that you were ever going to be able to experience this thing. You know, and I’ve seen so many shows where that’s been the case. I, I’m glad that I saw them at the time, but you can’t. It’s the magic of theatre. And also the thing that that that I don’t think we capitalise enough on the fact that like, this is an experience, it’s going to happen now. And it’s never going to happen again like this. Yeah. Yeah.

Glenn Sumi
I know. That’s why we love it so much, I think, which is why it’s so mysterious to you know, like, I’ve often thought because you’re also a different person when you you were a different person when you saw that, right. And I remember thinking, you know, when, when Daniel Brooks passed away to there was some of his production, some of the first productions of his that I had seen. I remember thinking, wow, I would love to go back and see this thing in 1998 that I saw that totally blew me away. And I can look at my review. And that’s, that’s fine, but it just doesn’t capture just the spirit, the essence of the peace. So yeah, whereas with the film, you can you can go back and of course, you are different, you’re older, you see things you didn’t but but with theatre man, it’s gone. You know? And of course, as we all know, yeah, like video versions of those plays, you know, like pro shots or whatever, they just don’t capture that.

Phil Rickaby
They, they, they don’t and I remember, you know, in the thick of COVID When Disney plus released the their films version of Hamilton Hamilton Yeah, I remember watching that. And you know, it was great to see people close up because when I saw it, I was really far back and all that sort of stuff. But I remember the more distinct thought that I had, as I was watching that was Man, I miss being in an audience. Yeah. So you could sort of give the sense of what it’s like to be there. But sitting in the audience is the unique perspective not sitting on your couch. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I did. I

Glenn Sumi
think that was a really good capturing of them show though. So I really liked how they did do that. It’s almost like a model for how you could do you know, stage show.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. I mean, they had the budget for it, because most of us only get to put like a camera at the back of the theatre. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that’s all we got. And that’s, that’s a little harder to, to sell to people to like, see my livestream version of this show. And this tiny camera at the back of the room doesn’t really sell in the same way as that.

Glenn Sumi
Yeah, absolutely. Um,

Phil Rickaby
but you know, your film like you said, like you, you can always when you watch it, it is exactly the same. It’s the same film, it’s the same performance. It’s always that you can always relive it. And I’m curious because you know, you’ve reviewed different things but you, you’ve been reviewing theatre for so long. Did you say we sort of like skirted around it earlier but settling on theatre as well? As the primary thing that you are going to review, did that happen it now? Is that when did that sort of start to settle for

Glenn Sumi
you? Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, I was hired as a theatre writer. And then a couple years later, maybe a year and a half later, they hired me as, as an editor, think I was associate editor of the entertainment section. And then a couple years after that, I became the film editor, too. But I think what happened and I had to think about this, too, when I started the blog, I think what happened was that I realised that there are so many people writing about film. That, really, it wasn’t, my contribution was just very small. Whereas I thought that I could make a bigger contribution to writing about theatre. Also, it just, I, you know, I like it’s so much more, and it’s just so much more honest. And I think that the artists intention behind it is honest, because I remember, especially when I started covering both of them, pretty equally. I remember thinking, oh, you know, like, because you see, you see sequels and film and everything. And you see, you know, people just tried to make a quick buck. And you just don’t don’t see that. In the theatre world. I mean, if only right, I mean, you very rarely, even in commercial theatre. I mean, there’s the whole jukebox musical trend and everything like that. But that’s not the bulk of the kind of theatre that you see, you know, like, the meat and potatoes sort of stuff that you see all the time. Yeah, but I remember, I think it’s just the the, just the, you know, theatre artists, why they’re doing it. How they’re struggling to do it just is so inspiring, from my perspective, you know, that I thought, Oh, this is just such a more interesting and exciting and immediate art form to be writing about. And, and I’m happy, I mean, the only thing that I really wish I could do more of is just see, again, more international stuff is, you know, because there’s theatre happening all over the world, you know, obviously, not just, you know, in the English speaking world, not just New York and London, but everywhere. And so, I just wish there was a way to bring in more, more international stuff. I mean, thankfully, the population of Toronto is so eclectic. And a lot of artists are coming from other countries, and are bringing those stories and their techniques to us. And I think that’s, that’s really one of the most exciting things here. But I just wish more like bigger companies came through as they used to, with some festivals. I don’t know if you remember the world stage festival? I do. I do. Yeah. And that was that was just extraordinary. And but again, you need money, you know, you need your programming, and those programmers really did have to go all over the world and see stuff. Good enough stuff to bring back here. But yeah, I mean, that, you know, and again, because it’s not going to exist, you know, you can’t you can’t see like a tape of this. So, yeah, I, you know, maybe maybe I will try to make it two more things. Internationally, but, again, costs money. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
I mean, cost is really, I mean, everything, you know, theatre is, I don’t want to say it’s changing is finding itself. But, you know, you hear stories about these, these theatres in the states that are closing down, you hear theatres, you know, during the pandemic, we lost a couple of independent spaces in Toronto. Money is, is the difficult and the hardest thing about producing theatre and no matter the scale, whether it’s on like a world stage scale, or like a little indie theatre, like the red sandcastle or the assembly, they’re both like, these are, it’s hard to find all of that. But also, as we look at the, the landscape of the of the theatre in Toronto, we’ve lost a lot of voices that write about theatre, over the pandemic. And even just before that, because like you mentioned, there’s, there aren’t many full time reviewers for any newspapers, mostly, they’re freelancers. And that means that there’s there’s fewer people who are just writing about it in general. And then you look at something like the Toronto Fringe Festival. And you know, sadly, Meghan Maroney had to stop producing money on theatre. I remember last year’s fringe. There was like this mad scramble for where the reviews were their reviews were the reviews It’s it’s sort of I think we’re finding some equilibrium. But are you seeing that as you’re sort of continuing on your, your journey as a as a, as a writer under your own website? That there’s sort of like, do you see the ecosystem of people writing about theatre becoming more healthy? As we as time goes on a little bit?

Glenn Sumi
I think. Yeah, I mean, obviously, it’s gone, it’s gone digital. So, you know, the, the, a lot of the younger critics, some have their own blogs have their own sites. And there’s some really exciting writing out there, I think, going on. And there are some training programmes too, especially. You know, because it’s, in the past couple of decades, it’s been a very, you know, white field, there have been, you know, mostly white critics. And I think, I think that is changing, there have been, you know, bipoc, critics, labs, and things, some, some of which I’ve taken part in as a sort of mentor, guest speaker. And that’s really encouraging. But again, I think there has to be a place for these emerging critics to, to write and to get paid for their writing to, you know, it can’t just be, you know, I know that we’ve been talking about the sort of class structure and the arts to like it, you know, it can’t just be for for the wealthier people with inherited wealth, or who have married somebody in a profession that you can, that can support your so called, you know, hobby doing this, I mean, it’d be great if more people just made made a living doing this, but I don’t know, I mean, is the whole idea of a professional critic, is that even relevant anymore, you know, in the, in the era of social media, like, where everybody has a has a comment, and, and there are influencers around and, you know, I mean, there was a piece what a couple of weeks ago about, about movie studios, giving precedence now to, to so called influencers covering films rather than traditional film critics. Because, you know, they have, many of them have massive, massive followings. But they’re not, you know. So, I mean, they’re going to be, you know, getting the word out about your film, but, or they’re going to be putting that film into, you know, some sort of contexts, are they going to? And are they going to be critical about it, too? I mean, that that was, you know, and it doesn’t that sort of thing does exist, I think in theatre, Chris criticism as well, there are a couple of I won’t name anybody, but there are some critics, who are more cheerleaders, or supporters don’t want to say, don’t want to say anything critical about shows. And does that really help? Does that really help the ecosystem? Does that help people? I don’t, you know, I’m not implying that you have to be mean. But you can be critical and destructive. But just to sort of answer your question. Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of, you know, Ashley Murphy at intermission, I think is so gifted is so talented. Joshua Chung is my colleague at the star is really, really smart. Liam Donovan, is that next magazine, and I think he has his own. Or he had his own sort of theatre blog as well. I think he’s even in university. So they’re all like Gen Z. And they’re doing just incredible work. And you know, and little bit older people like Alanna Lucas, who was at at Mooney, as was ish, fond du Gulen, he was at Moody theatre as well. So, you know, they’re well trained, but I mean, I look at any of them. And I would respect I have to respect their work. And I’m always seeking them out. You know, because I think the more the more viewpoints you have on an on a on a show, the better. And this just sort of more more dialogue.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, I think that’s really important. The dialogue aspect is really important, because it shouldn’t just be one one, critics opinion, that rules the rules the roost for want of a better phrase, because Theatre is a conversation and there should be more opinions and discussions. Yeah. You’re talking about the cheerleading reviewers. And I remember I was at a particular Fringe Festival a number of years ago, and I discovered that that’s the way that all of the reviewers in that particular city wrote their reviews. And I have some really strong opinions. About About the cheerleading aspect of it, if you don’t want to say if you don’t want to be actually critical, if you just want to say that everything is amazing, you do a disservice both to the audience and to the performer. Because when the audience goes to a show that has been raved about, and it isn’t really worthy of the raves, then they leave thinking, I guess I just don’t understand theatre. Yeah, which is the thing that we’re we are constantly trying to combat anyone. Yeah. Yeah.

Glenn Sumi
I know. And they’re gonna feel alienated like, oh, obviously, I didn’t feel that. So maybe theatre isn’t for me. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, why not? Just not say anything if you didn’t like it? And I’ve done that, too. Yeah. Just especially for a young company that had just thought I may have just emailed them a few words, but I’m not gonna go on record. And say, and right, thanks. Yeah. I mean, you know, we might, we might appear sort of, sort of mean, and vicious wherever. But we do have, you know, we do have hearts. I remember early on having a or coming to the conclusion that yeah, I’m not going to unless, I’m not going to say anything bad about young actors, for instance, like children, like the 10 or so. And I’m not even bad, but just overly critical. Unless they are like the star of the show. Unless it’s like an Annie or Matilda or that right thing. I will just leave out saying something. Because, you know, I think that that could probably, that could probably stay with that person for a long time. Because they just don’t have the, the, the defences built up then and perspective on on what they’re doing. So. And so I’ve stayed with that for a while. And again, yeah, like young emerging companies. I would rather point out the things that worked. And then the things that don’t I think, I think that’s probably the better way to go with in with them. There’s,

Phil Rickaby
there’s a sense I think, sometimes, between the performer and the and, and the critic, where there are some people who want to fight about their review, if they didn’t agree with it. And there are other people who, sort of the, you know, they just take it in, and they say, Okay, I guess we have differing opinions or things like that. But I think that there, we generally don’t have like a dialogue between between reviewer and, and, and artists. And maybe it’s because of, you know, sometimes an artist feelings get hurt. And it’s they they lash out, I think you got an email from somebody at some point that I think you talked about on Twitter about them. Talking about a harsh review or something is Do you think there is a space for like a, like a friendly conversation between reviewer and critic? Or is it better just to like, take the review and just let it be what it is, and you accept that you have a differing opinion of the critic as the artist?

Glenn Sumi
Yeah, that’s a good question. Um, I always want to be, I always wouldn’t be formed if I got something wrong, like a spelling of a name or something, or even like a plot point or something. And so I’m happy when people sort of point that out. But yeah, I mean, it would be great if there could be some sort of dialogue. And I think that with social media there can be there. You know, there can be more responses, some things. There’s always the comment section, which I think can be a great, a great, a great way to see different viewpoints. And to learn a lot, too, but I think in this case, the one that I think I posted about on my blog, too, in this case, yeah, it was just it was somebody who DM me or emailed me and just said that my writing was mean spirited, and that other people thought it was too. And, and that sort of got under my skin because I thought I want it made me question Am I mean spirited? Because I remember the the phrase that he was referring to. I remember taking a lot of time around that. Just the wording of it. And, you know, I remember thinking in the show a couple of times before, you know, I mean, there wasn’t just it wasn’t just one instance of it. But I thought well, you know, this person is an adult, they’ve done this. I think they’ve come back to theatre recently. But I stand by this I, you know, I yeah, I mean, with 25 years of seeing theatre, I stand by what I wrote about it. And I don’t think that that was mean spirited, maybe I could have put it in, I could have added more context. But that may have even just sort of brought more attention to the one line. Um, and so it’s going to be interesting, because this person has a big show coming up in the fall. And so I don’t, oh, he also said something about Well, I feel like I can tell you this because you get free tickets. I didn’t mention that. I didn’t mention that in the posts. So now I don’t think, am I going to be invited to this? And if I’m not, I can always just buy it, buy a ticket, because as a freelancer now I can expense these things. Right, right. And what happens is, if one of the papers, you know, assigned to me to review this, I don’t know, I’m gonna have to think about this, because it’s gonna be a pretty, it’s a pretty high profile show. Um, and this person is involved. So, yeah, but I mean, you know, in 25 years, as that being one of the few times that that’s happened, I find that really interesting. You know,

Phil Rickaby
I think I think that says a lot about about you, as a reviewer, to be honest. Because I think that you are fair. And I think that anybody who has read your reviews over the years, knows that you’re not mean spirited. Just like just like, you know, John Kaplan could be very, you know, he could be blunt. Yeah. But he could also, you know, he did it with love, because He loved theatre. Yeah. You know, I remember he would occasionally, you know, if you sent him a press release, and you know, you’d made some errors, he’d be like, can I tell you about your press release, and give you notes on your press release that he did a couple of times in the early days. And I was like, at first I was like, I don’t know what this means. And I’m just like, he’s just trying to help you, you know. Now, as we sort of sit at this time of the year, it’s like the middle of August, the Mad frenzy of the of the Toronto Fringe Festival. summerworks has just ended, as we head into the fall, as things sort of ramp up for the fall. And we won’t even talk about the madness that is November. What does this time of year look like for you as a reviewer? Is it calmer? Is it is it a space where you can sort of like take a bit of a breath before things really get too busy in the fall? Or is it does it? Is it never ending for you?

Glenn Sumi
Yeah, I mean, I’m going to, I’m going to be covering because there are still some Stratford and Shaw openings. And I actually missed some of the early ones, just because the season in Toronto was still going on in May. And also trying to get transportation to either of those places is always a challenge when you don’t have a car. So I’m actually I’ve been assigned to review some things at the shop some things that Stratford, I’m going to be covering, I think I’m going to be covering TIFF or one of the daily papers. But, you know, most theatres know to stay away from that first, that first week after Labour Day, the first week and a half. But yeah, I mean, traditionally, it has been a sort of quieter time. I’ve got kind of, I’ve got a magazine piece that I’ve just I’ve just been working on for weeks now. And I can still want that to be over. It’s theatre related. And it’s fascinating. I mean, one of the great things about I think about being a freelancer now is being able to choose what, what I write about. And I’ve had to turn some things down. I’ve just been so busy. But, but like at now or you know, if you’re on staff somewhere, you can be pulled in so many different directions. First of all, you know, you’re editing, and I loved editing I love that’s really one of the things that I miss a lot. I love working with writers, I love to signing things to them. But also you’re you’re drawn in or you’re you know, yeah, you’re thrown into assignments that you might not necessarily want you know, like then the Readers Choice thing where you have to talk about the best Mercer and Toronto are some things you have to interview them for the best yoga place or whatever, you know, I mean, they’re not huge assignments, but they still take up, take up some bandwidth or whatever. So I kind of like I kind of like no, I really like just being able to choose what I what I do write about but I’ve also been thinking about you know, just looking at the season that’s Coming up, because I’ve one of the great things about, I’ve compiled this listing section in my, in my, on my site. So I sort of get to see all these things that are coming up and you just sort of start thinking about ways that you can cover these shows in sort of more creative ways. So I like thinking in those terms, like if there are trends or whatever. But yeah, I mean, traditionally spring sort of the May, May, June, early June, and sort of August. Yeah, after summer works. And then, right. And right before Labour Day have traditionally been real dark periods for for theatres, but I think a lot of other theatre, a lot of smart theatre companies or theatre people have realised that too, and they’ve, they’ve realised, oh, there are some empty theatres here. So maybe we can put on a show.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, that’s a fact for sure. Now, what, with with, you know, 25 years of reviewing Theatre in the toronto, toronto sort of theatre ecosystem? I wonder if you have thoughts about what makes the Toronto’s theatre scene unique? What makes it vibrant? What is it? How do you see the Toronto theatre scene when you look at it, and looking back on it?

Glenn Sumi
Wow, it’s good. Really. Mix it your knee. I mean, I think the population of Toronto, the, the, the demographics of the city, and I think that one of the best things about the return after the pandemic, has just been the change in artistic leadership. And that’s been reflected in the programming. We’re talking, you know, ethnic diversity, but also gender and, you know, there, we, we just saw, like, a Deaf led production of, of the Scottish play just a lot more sensitivity, about what kind of audiences we’re making theatre for. So, I, you know, I, I would think that, this, that this is unique in the country, just because the other the other cities I don’t think have as big as greater diversity. The other thing too, is, that is just the the other arts going on, you know, and I think I love those. I love those collaborations, especially attic with comedy and like with music, like some of the things that, you know, that Chris Abraham was doing at Crow’s theatre by bringing in, you know, like, indie rock musicians, putting on shows and so sort of cross pollinating these audiences. I think that is, that is so cool. And I think it’s a great way to ensure that, you know, that, that both fields have the both art forms, you know, have a are exposed to different things. And just the comedy, I mean, having, having second city here, having bad dog theatre here, and having those people do theatre, and TV and everything, I think, just really makes the scene. Just a lot more fun. And yeah, it just brings so much variety to it. So yeah, I am so glad that we’ve got you know, that Toronto is apart from Just For Laughs festival in Montreal, I think that Toronto really is the comedy hub. I mean, ultimately, we don’t that’s just one of the saddest things I think in the country is that we just don’t have the infrastructure in comedy to to support all the talented comics who are here in the country and most of them leave for New York or LA or, or even the UK to where you know, there’s a longer tradition but but man I think the scene would be so much sadder without that element so yeah, I don’t know. And you know, and then having places like Stratford and shot to and so people can get this training and then come back or on the off season, you know, they can do shows like in the November’s or whatever, they will often do it or No, no, I guess before before them before these. Yeah, no, November of them. No, after depends.

Phil Rickaby
I think it depends because I remember the Rocky Horror ran right well into November. Yeah, yeah.

Glenn Sumi
So I think January often you’ll see a lot of the festival folks. Take your contract, which is great because often you know People who don’t go to this places don’t get to see these these fantastic artists.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Well, like you said, it’s hard to get there without a car.

Glenn Sumi
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wish I really wish that like the trains did a better yet a better job of getting these places especially since like traffic now to you know really like I’m going to Niagara and lake on Thursday and it’s just like, Yeah, I’m leaving like four hours before. Yeah, you have what is like, basically, if everything’s fine is basically like an hour and a half trip.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, but you don’t know. Exactly. Yeah, it’s the year that the year that I did a show at the Hamilton Fringe Festival. I left I was going to have like hours when the idea was I was gonna have like, three, four hours before I had to do a thing that that evening. It was like their big kickoff. Well, it took so long for us to drive there that I arrived just as the thing was starting. Oh, so you? You can’t? You can’t that stretch is pretty rough. So it’d be great to have a train that took us there.

Glenn Sumi
Yeah. I remember coming back when they had the courthouse theatre at Niagara on the Lake. I remember getting there right at whatever, two o’clock or whatever. And I had to pee like crazy. I thought I could go into the theatre or I could go to the washroom and I know I have to go to the washroom Yeah, just gonna burst. So like did I think I got it. I think they let me like in the back or something like that. But that was just the most painful.

Phil Rickaby
Of course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, it’s yeah, that the it’s great to have those places. They’re very, they’re very close. As long as everything timewise gets you there. Well,

Glenn Sumi
and there’s so much more in province to write like, Man, I wish Yeah, I wish I could go to all these places and some people do like I Slotkin goes all over the place. Christopher oil goes all over the place. You know, and I think I’d love to I’d love to have gone see the the Donnelly’s trilogy up at Blythe yesterday, because I studied at the University and I’ve never, I’ve never seen a production. I’ve only read it and I thought, right.

Phil Rickaby
But yeah, there’s, you’ve got Blythe, you’ve got, you’ve got Prescott. There’s so many little theatres all over this province that we don’t even because we’re you know, we’re here and you need to travel to get to them. I think they’re not on a lot of people’s radars, but they do great work. Yeah. Well, Glenn, I want to thank you so much for giving me some of your Monday evening. Really appreciate the time and thanks so much for the conversation.

Glenn Sumi
Thank you, Phil. Thanks for asking me.

Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy. Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcast, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings help new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod. And you can find the website with the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at PhilRickaby. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy