#374 – Cassie Muise
Cassie Muise is an experienced artist with credits in theatre, voice over, film and television. She is currently writing her first musical, “God Catcher”, which will premiere this summer at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe in Scotland. In addition to performing, Cassie has experience as a director, choreographer, and teacher. Select credits include: Nickie in “Sweet Charity”, Tina Denmark in “Ruthless”, Wednesday Addams in “The Addams Family”, and the award winning short film, “T-Minus”.
Twitter: @cassiemuise
God Catcher re-imagines the myth of Arachne. Arguably the most talented weaver of all time, Arachne was vengefully turned into the first spider for beating the goddess Athena at a weaving contest.
godcatcher.com
Twitter: @godcatchermt
Instagram: @godcatchermusical
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Transcript
Transcript auto generated.
Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years, but I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble.
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Cassie Muise is a theatre artist currently based in Montreal, she’s taking her musical God catcher to the Edinburgh Fringe this summer. She joined me to talk about writing a musical preparing for the biggest Fringe Festival in the world the inspiration behind God catcher and much more. Here’s our conversation
So Cassie Muise, welcome to the show. We’re going to talk about God catcher. What I mean what do we start with? Like what is what is God catcher about? Tell me tell me everything?
Cassie Muise
Yeah. Oh, you gotta be careful what you ask for we’re gonna be here for like eight hours, to like the entire missile logical cannon for you. But basically, God catcher is a new musical. And it is a reimagining of the myths of acne, which is a myth about the a woman who was turned into the very first spider. Not a lot of people are familiar with this myth. But some of you who know it may know that correctly. And Athena, who is the goddess of weaving had a challenge, and rapidly one and then was punished and turned into a spider. Sometimes people say that this is because she was ashamed of having ascended a goddess. Sometimes people say this is because of the content of her tapestry. But regardless, in every version, or Acme hangs herself, and then Athena turns into a spider out of pity. So God Petro is a reimagining of that myth. I’m not to be too glib, I like to just sort of say it’s a bit like Hades town needs wicked, you know, we’re sort of looking at somebody who’s often perceived as a big baddie, from their perspective. And then, of course, you know, Hades town is just such an incredible example of modernising or connecting this to to more modern context. So that’s, that’s what we’re striving to do.
Phil Rickaby
And so this is this is this is a musical. Right? What are the what are the influences of this this musical? What kind of like musical styles do? What are the inspirations musically for this, this this show?
Cassie Muise
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think the truth that I need, it’s definitely a modern musical. And by that, I mean, like, I’m looking at sort of the like, you know, Stephen Schwartz’s the sort of really touchy musical numbers with like quite a bit of harmonies. One of the things that’s been just like, so exhilarating as an artist, especially as a musical theatre artist, is that sometimes you see shows where you’re like, Oh, this is interesting that they chose to make the show a musical. It’s not necessarily like an organic sit to the content. And that doesn’t mean that it’s good or bad, but it’s like the show could be told as a play or it could be told as a musical or could be told in many different ways. And I see like the story of Iraqi which is literally about weavin is just the perfect vessel for musical theatre. Because it truly to express all of the things going on in her life. And in this really like, Greek time Greek mythology is like a magical world. To be able to express all of this you need the music, you need the text and you need movement. And so it’s very much a modern sort of, I would I would say Poppy it’s more of a pop musical and but with like a lot of really fun Hermes and hopefully some interesting moving parts and a couple of year words as well. So
Phil Rickaby
well musicals, elevate, right like that’s the whole thing like like I’m Musical where the the the, the scene doesn’t naturally lead to singing doesn’t really work. It becomes like one of those like, terrible stereotypes of a bad musical where but is it? Oh Katana is saying, you know,
Cassie Muise
yeah. And it’s certainly a challenge for the actors who are on stage, which you know, as a creative, it’s been really interesting being like, oh my gosh, I care so much for, for these actors, I’ve been there and want to make sure that I’m doing the best that I can to provide them with musical choices that make sense and tell the story in a way that like, can only be done through music at times. So it’s been like, yeah, thrilling and kind of crazy, to be honest with you. But good.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting, because you were talking about, you know, sometimes the show, you know, you Why is this a musical? Why is this a play? When I, as soon as you said that, I thought, Well, it’s interesting, because you, Sweeney Todd, which is considered one of the great musicals of all time, started as a play with their music, it was just a play. And then it was adapted into a musical. And everybody forgets that it was a play. And so, like, totally taking it and elevating it and taking it further. Like, it’s like, it should have been a musical all the time. But it didn’t start that way. But now it is.
Cassie Muise
Yeah, totally. I definitely think that there’s a beautiful amount of space within the arts to, to grow an idea like that. And I think it is just, it’s, it’s thrilling as an audience member, and especially as an artist to be like, Oh, wow, like, it was good. And look at, look at what more there was to explore within this piece. Like, that’s always really exciting. But, but there are some musicals that I’ve looked at, and even musicals I love, like, I’m gonna give an example of like, bring it on that musical, you know, which is like, I love that musical. I think it is so fun. There’s so much about it that I really enjoy. I, Austin and like, I don’t know, if it needed to be a musical, it doesn’t necessarily mean that, that it’s bad, but I just feel like there are some times more organic choices than than others. And I just definitely feel like God catcher was like waiting to be a Musical for 2000 years, you know? Sure.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. I mean, you shouldn’t you shouldn’t look, let’s let’s nerd out a bit about musical because I my gateway to theatre was a musical theatre cast albums we had in the house when I was growing up, we had Godspell, we had Oklahoma, we had my fair lady, those were the three that we had in the house and six classics, right. And it was like I listened to those those kind of catchy and then I realised, oh, these tell a story. So let’s nerd out a bit, because I’m curious about, you know, when you’re putting together a musical, what kind of research are you doing? How are you making decisions? Like, what kind of opening Do you have? What kind of like, how are you constructing this this thing?
Cassie Muise
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So I would say that, you know, this being the first full length musical, there has been a lot of stumbling around, you know. And originally, I had written sort of, you know, 40 pages of a draft, like a significant amount going in one direction, where arachnia is choosing to leave her tapestry, because, you know, she knows one of the women personally, that she ends up portraying in it. And, you know, my co writer and composer Tyler MacKinnon, he said to the Okay, so we could do that. That’s a good idea, for sure. And we do that, then the show is about revenge. And if we do it, that arachnid is weaving this tapestry about, you know, women who, who have been harmed, and she’s taking the stand against the gods, because she believes that it’s right, and she’s the only one who can she’s the only one with a voice in this moment. Then we’re doing a show about justice, What one do you want to do? And I was like, Oh, my gosh, obviously, justice. Well, not obviously to me. And so, you know, my experience so far has just been like putting it out there and being open to what come what comes back, we’ve started this show in so many different directions, we have had characters who have been cut, you know, like, rip gone, but never forgotten forever in my heart. And so I think I, my only real concrete answer for this is that I have tried so many starts, and a lot of them have been wrong. And then gradually, as you do a lot of wrong things, you get closer to what the right thing is. And ultimately now we open the show with Iraqi and her mother and her mother teaching her how to weave because we, for a lot of time, we were like you know, our acne is famous for weaving. But how did she get there? Who taught her? What? Why is this something that she is so passionate about? Why does she do this publicly, which would have been it is kind of revolutionary now but in the context of Greek mythology, like she in ancient Greece, she literally would not have been allowed to exist in public without the permission of a husband or a father. So her taking up this space is so revolutionary, it’s hard to imagine and so instead of starting there, we were like, but how did she get there? I want to know her before she gets there. And so that was how we eventually ended up at the beginning that we have now. So, you know, that’s not really like a concrete answer. But it was that a lot of discovery and, and trial and error and curiosity, I guess. I mean, in
Phil Rickaby
a lot of ways, you when you’re writing something, especially something as epic as a musical, you have to try a bunch of things to figure out, you have to, like you said, you have to try a lot of wrongs before you find the right you know, you, there’s so many ways to start a musical that you you kind of could do any of them, but they’re not all the right way to start a show. As far as as far as like, creating and throwing away, how hard was that to like, spend the time to create an opening and then realise it’s not wrong, and then it’s not working? And then like, toss it, how hard is that?
Cassie Muise
It’s devastating. I’m, I am a dramatic and emotional person. And I have like walked around crying about it literally, like sitting at my computer crying that I’m you know, killing these characters or letting it go. And there is something really beautiful about still knowing them. And knowing that that is something that I definitely treasure, but it’s so difficult. I will say, however, that the clearer you are like, the closer that we get to what I know I want the vision to be the easier it is to do. Because instead of seeing it as you know, I guess that you know, when you say yes to something, you’re saying no to something else, right? And so in these moments, I’m like, if I say yes to this character, taking the, you know, being a beat plotline right now that I’m saying no to Iraq, me really fulfilling all of the emotional arc that is available to her. I don’t want to do that. I want to say yes to Iraqi all of the time. And so it’s easier now than it was even a few months ago. And it’s still hard.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, yeah, it’s it. Anytime that you that you get attached to something, it’s it’s hard to let it go. And and if you’re writing music for something, I can’t imagine how much you’re pouring into this, this person to write a song that’s perfect for them, and then have to like, just give it up.
Cassie Muise
Yeah, it’s really hard. And honestly, like, I, the process has been wonderful with Tyler McKinnon, we really are very collaborative in all ways. So you know, like, there are some songs where I wrote all, not all, but most of the lyrics. And then, you know, he contributed a little bit. And then there’s some songs where like, I gave one line, and then that, you know, was the new idea for him. And he was able to latch on to things. And we’ve collaborated back and forth that way. But it’s also been interesting, because tylee lives in the UK. And so we’ve had a couple of moments of real. Now, I don’t really want to say tension, because that sounds too dramatic, but just you know, where we’ve had to, like, communicate very clearly. There’s one song for example, called Don’t shoot the messenger that sung by Hermes. And what would be like slept the 11 O’clock Number, you know, and he’s basically spent spreading the story about Iraqi, which, I don’t think it’s too much of a spoiler to say, we don’t believe that the story is accurate. So he’s, you know, spreading the lies about a better athlete. And the song is above, and it’s so much fun. And because we’re separate, Tyler worked on a version that was, like, awesome, it was so great. It just was not right, for a whole bunch of reasons. And he had done like, harmonies and the whole song and like a really cool, like, moving part. And they had the I’m sorry, but no. And we had a very, like, you know, we often do voice notes, and I got this very, you know, beautiful measured waist note where Tyler was sort of like, I appreciate everything that you’re saying, I absolutely think that you’re right. I am upset because I love this song. And I just need to like, not talk about it until tomorrow. Like, I love a good night. And I’m like, okay, great. So there’s also that sort of dynamic that happens sometimes where we really have to, like make space for each other to let go with the things because I think that your brain can be at the conclusion of like, this is what has to happen. And then your emotions are still like 30% of the way there. So we’ve definitely tried to make space for each other when we’re in those. Those moments of dissonance between like, what we know is right, and how we feel about losing the material we loves, you know,
Phil Rickaby
yeah, yeah. How do you navigate those, like the disagreements, it’s all you can necessarily sit down face to face and have a conversation because of the distance and also a time difference as well. So how do you navigate disagreements when they occur in that in this kind of writing partnership?
Cassie Muise
Yeah. I think to be honest with you, Tyler and I have very complementary and opposite skills, which is that I’m very good at sort of like vomiting out a draft that has like, you know, two good lines. Isn’t it? And Tyler is really good at reading it and thinking about it and pulling out something, I always feel like I give him like a piece of poop. And he, you know, looks at it and then turns it over goes, Did you mean this, that it’s a diamond and I’m like, oh my god, I can get it. That’s even better than I thought it was gonna be. So we’re lucky that we have sort of complementary skills in that way. And we’ve known each other for a really long time. So that certainly certainly helps. I think we haven’t we’ve, I think we’ve always been successful about getting to a place where we both feel really excited about whenever the changes that happen not easy, like, there definitely have been some things where I feel like, I’ve been like, Okay, I’m gonna let go of that. Because obviously, this section is very important to Tyler. And I’m like, is, is this really important to me that this goes exactly my way. And I’m like, No, do I think I’m the only person who knows this story really intimately depths nearly not at Yale. And so then I think because Tyler and I are both our desire is to have for 100% of the show, both of us be really on on the same page inside and excited. It means that we don’t really have huge disagreements about the important stuff, which to be honest with you. I mean, I’ve collaborated with a lot of people. And I think I’m very competent and intelligent and a lot of other great things. But think sometimes I’m hard to work with because I’m very emotional. So it’s been really eye opening for me to collaborate with somebody who can you know, understand that about me and needy with patience and grace, instead of being like, tapped. He just gave me a five minute mythology voice note again. And then the next day, I’m like, I’m sorry, you’re right. That’s actually not important that people know the root of the word agora. He’s very patient with me about stuff. Like
Phil Rickaby
it’s funny that things that are writer that a writer latches on to it is in the moment, like, this is the most important thing that people know that somebody’s like, nobody’s actually going to care about that. And like, oh, yeah, I care about it.
Cassie Muise
Totally. And it’s a it’s Dixit, I think it’s important that the people who are writing shows be that passionate about the things that are in it, and the nuts and bolts and the sort of, you know, like scaffold of the world, I think that’s so important. But also especially because Greek mythology is such a large in all encompassing subject that has a lot of variety and nuance in it, you know, there’s like different translations, there’s, there’s a lot of contexts that you like, can’t really explain to people before going into a shop. And a lot of people have, you know, some, some reference to it. Some people don’t have any, you know, like we’ve had people be like, I don’t know who the goddess Athena is. I’m like, really, the lady with the helmet, you haven’t like seen that. So you know, you really can’t make any assumptions with this kind of material. And so sometimes when like your knowledge of the world, gets in the way of the audience actually hearing the story you want to tell. And I feel really grateful that I get to when I say called out because that’s a, like, I get invited to reconsider how this sort of like technical correct nests of my references are?
Phil Rickaby
Well, it’s interesting, because if you look at it, so like Hades town, they don’t make any assumptions about about you, and just knowing who everybody is. They tell you who everybody is, you’re introduced to Hermes is this, and these are the Muses, and they do that, like, it tells you it just in case. You know, there’s like one person in the back row who’s like, now who are these people, you know, you tell so that everybody in the audience gets the same opportunity to understand their relationships, and it’s so important. And, you know, it’s it’s sometimes we it’s easy to make assumptions of all people. No,
Cassie Muise
totally, totally. But yeah, it sir. I think I think we’re on the way to being, if not, at least, like accessible to people who weren’t familiar with Greek mythology, then at least, if they’re like, Well, I don’t know what that is. But it’s not so important that I don’t understand the story. Yeah, right. We’re gonna we’re in a pretty good spot. Because, you know, sometimes people are just, like, I just told you that Hermes was the god of messages, and they’re like, but what does that mean? What does he do? And I’m like, Well, you know what, that there? You’ve all read a book like that. You’re like,
Phil Rickaby
yeah, it’s, it’s funny the things that that, you know, like, it’s a fine line of a what do people need to know? What do I want them to know? What’s the fine line in between? Because I want them to know all of the things and they can’t park I can’t brain dump all of this stuff into their heads. Totally.
Cassie Muise
Oh, man. Wouldn’t it be great if we could just AirDrop information and other people said It’s like somebody
Phil Rickaby
somebody walks into the theatre, they’re like, Oh, yes. Now I understand. Oh, this story. I’m looking forward to seeing this as a musical.
Cassie Muise
Oh my gosh, I papers in modern day Turkey fascinated like
Phil Rickaby
No, as As, as somebody who’s writing a musical, when did you first or has written I want to say has written because by the time this, this goes up, you will be about to do it in the Edinburgh Fringe. When was When was your first inkling that creating a musical might be something that you want to do?
Cassie Muise
That’s a good question. I I think actually, I have written all of my life, you know, and it’s, it’s interesting when I reflect on that journey I look at like, how, you know, like, my parents for one Christmas when I was eight years old, I like wrote them a book of poems and typed it on a typewriter and bound it together. With no, like, no, no shame, no self consciousness. I was just like, I wrote special cones for you guys. Yeah. So I think I have always had an interest in writing, I’ve always sort of written as even a way into into characters, you know, like, whether that be journaling or whether that be doing something experimentally from their perspective. But I didn’t actually really commit to writing a musical until this particular show. And basically, what happened was during the, during the Panini, you know, when it was was early on, and we were all sort of hanging out, and personally, I was probably enjoying a little too much gin. I was having a conversation with someone on Zoom or whatever, as you do, and I don’t even remember how they brought it up. But they say, oh, yeah, you really liked mythology, what’s your favourite myth? And said, my favourite myth is the myth of reckoning. And they said, I don’t know that one. And I proceeded to have like, a 50 minute, quite round, there was some conversation they did engage with, with me, but you know, just talking to them about like, I think that the ending of the myth was rewritten. A lot of people don’t know it. I feel absolutely livid that most modern portrayals of Iraq me just show her as this like, villainous, murderous, awful spider creature when I’m like, she literally wove a tapestry that made the gods look at what they’ve done to mortal women, you know, I’m just like, how anyway, so, you know, I had this long conversation, and I was like, Oh, I’m, there’s, there’s so many things that are related today. And it’s so interesting to think about, like, abuse of power structures, and the ratio of the female narrative and, and beyond that, like, you know, what, what it would have been like, for her to, like, have her story stolen from her all of these things, you know, said, I don’t know why no one has written this yet. And my friend said to me, why don’t you do it? And I was like, what? Me? No, I know. And they were like, you obviously know more than enough to write that show. And you care about it enough to talk to me, and he rated for like, hours. So I had a friend sort of plant that seed and spend some time in quarantine in Nova Scotia with like quarantining before caring for a family member, and there was a piano and I sort of just started playing. And then I reached sort of reaching out to people to try and figure out who to collaborate with because I was like, I do not want to do this on my own. And originally, Tyler, I had written a song that’s not in the show anymore. And Tyler actually, like, helps by giving cording underneath it for it. I just sort of written a melody and lyrics. And he didn’t say anything at all, because he was like, I know, this is your story. I really want to be involved. But I don’t want to be that guy who’s like, Oh, you’re telling me a story with a female lead? And I’m hoping that I could, you know, get in here. And then a couple months later, I was like, I think I’d like to do this together. Would you like to? And he was like, Yes, I was basically just waiting in the wing. So yeah, I mean, I guess that is a long winded way of answering each but then but it was never an obvious choice to me, you know, and certainly, like occurs I got from from other people.
Phil Rickaby
When you, you know, you, you performed a lot of musicals in your time. Yeah. And it did. It never did never occur to you, though. It’s really like, I wonder, would it be like to create my own was that not something that you really considered?
Cassie Muise
I think I, in spite of the fact that I’ve performed a fair amount, I definitely feel like I suffer from impostor syndrome. I think a lot of people do unfortunate and I feel like, it never seemed achievable. To me, it never seemed like reasonable or achievable. There’s, I think only like 30% of writers with musicals are women that like it’s very, very small. And that’s a like a modern context. Obviously, if you look back at the classics, it’s even less. And it honestly never really occurred to me. Now. I was very passionate and really loves doing new work. And so I feel like I’ve done a couple of workshops and up until stepping into this role if you had been like What’s your favourite thing to do? I would have said workshopping new musical. I love doing that. But yeah, it really just hadn’t occurred to me until somebody was like, you should definitely.
Phil Rickaby
impostor syndrome is a funny thing. It’s like this thing that I like to think any people who have people who have have real talent, people who have a real skill almost universally suffer from from imposter syndrome. And people who don’t have any, and who are just sort of like, are completely unaware of their own limitations that have no imposter syndrome. And that’s one thing that I’m kind of like, everybody that I know, it was, like, at all creative hits this certain point in the creative process where they’re like, everything sucks. I suck. This is terrible. Why am I even doing this? And it can’t, it’s so universal and hard to just deal with.
Cassie Muise
Absolutely. I think Have you heard of, I think it’s the five stages of of creating or, or writing or whatever. And the first one is like this. Yeah, this is awesome. And the second one is like, Okay, this is kinda 206 stages. The second one is like, Okay, this is kind of tough. The third one is like, This really sucks. The fourth one is like, I really sad. The first one and this might be okay, and then the sixth one is like, this is totally awesome. So you know, we I think I think all creators go through the cycle. Yeah, like art or dramaturg not clap yak actually said that. Like, right at the very beginning that was like this. This is might be useful for you guys. Sort of like, oh my God, I feel. So see, I’ve just hung out at level four, which is I’d soccer like a lot. Yeah, but I, I do feel like I bounced around a bit. Like I get just so excited when we do a workshop where somebody sings one of our songs or whatever, you know, like that, obviously, those are the great moments where you sort of look past that level. But it’s, it can be hard to see the light when you’re stuck in the eye stuck tear. You know,
Phil Rickaby
we used to refer to it in with one of my old collaborators, Richard ball, we will be creating something we would always refer to it as hitting the wall. And if the wall was short for the wall of shit, like, it doesn’t matter. At certain point during during the process, we hit the wall of shit where we are convinced that everything about this is just shit. And then you’re like, Well, we’ve come too far now. So you push through and then maybe on the on the other side, you kind of figure out it’s it’s not. We made it through the wall of shit. Wherever they felt like shit. But now it’s fine. All right, incredible.
Cassie Muise
Yeah, I definitely know the wall of shit very, very instantly. We’re well acquainted. Like, I feel that for sure.
Phil Rickaby
No, Cassie, you are from originally from Nova Scotia the Maritimes. Right?
Cassie Muise
Yeah, that’s right.
Phil Rickaby
What was your origin story for like becoming a theatre creator becoming an actor becoming a singer? What? How did how did? How did young you become you you
Cassie Muise
all next and sweet, too, you know, I in my family is a very musical family. There’s lots of singing and stuff, but like big family, and I’m sure you’re not shocked to hear that, like the East Coast has a lot of music and stuff. So and I was raised Roman Catholic. I’m not a practising practitioner of that anymore. But I used to sing in church a lot too, like every week, you know, so there is music around me all the time. And then in grade five, well, actually, technically, my first ever role was when I was in grade three, I was Snow White, but it was in French. So it was a Gini and he sat in there. And you know, that was one of those things where it was like I memorise the lines really easily. I really loved it. It was really fun. But that was sort of like classroom context. And then when I was in grade five, my school was doing Anna Green Gables. And I was cast as an angry gables at like, age 11. And that was just kind of it honestly, like after that I was like, this is the jam. And I will say one thing I feel super grateful for especially because I’ve been a teacher for you know, kids doing musicals and stuff and I’ve had parents be like, Why is my kid not the lead? You know, parents, it was the parents who think they’re advocating for their children. You know, I think I understand that I it’s hard to have your kids not get what they want. But for me, like in grade five, I was in in Green Gables. And I was the lead showed up on the first day do all my lines. It was amazing. And then the next year they did the Lion King and I was like a hyena and how to solo singing. So I had had no role. And I remember talking to the music teacher, when she saw was like the director as well. And I said to her, like Hi, my Did I do something wrong? Like I thought that I was good and she You just said to be cancer, you are excellent that this year, it’s not your turn. And you’re gonna have other stuff to do in the show that you’re really gonna love. And being a hyena meant that I was also like in the ensemble and like dancing a lot. And stats, I was like, oh my god, this is liberating, I get to make up my own stuff and like, be with everybody else. And then I ended up going on to have like, a bit of a career in dance, you know. And so, I feel like, even from a young age, I’ve had people who really taught me that, like, the creative journey is not about the rule. It’s about, like, what you bring to the experience. And, and in fact, like making space for other people to shine and the moments that like, once they really suit them, I know that not very, but yeah, it’s just not always your turn. And I feel like those two experiences have like, had such an effect on me for my whole life. So,
Phil Rickaby
but what an important lesson for a kid like to learn, because if, if you’re somebody who feels like, you should always have the lead. And, you know, especially when you’re younger, you’re in school, that sort of thing. And you get, you know, they’re always well, you know, if we, if we don’t give, if we don’t give, Phil, the latest parents are going to come in and yell at us. So we’re just going to give him the lead. What a, you’re completely unprepared. If you decide to go into theatre later, like, like, you’ve never that has faced the disappointment of rejection. So what a what a crushing thing it will be, if you don’t when you don’t always get that. So I’ve noticed and generally, it’s good for kids to understand disappointment. Yeah.
Cassie Muise
Well, and beyond that, I think it’s like, I think it really is so important that kids understand that, like, you are multifaceted. And so are the kinds of experiences that you’re going to have in life. And so not prioritising certain experiences over other ones is I just think, such an important way to be like, Hey, kid, your worth is not based on how you perform. You have that already. And here’s different ways that you engage with with that. Why not? Also, I mean, I think as an actor, it’s one of those things where you’re like, Yeah, you’re supposed to experience life, and then bring that experience and perspective to your characters into your work. And how can you do that you’re just like frickin lead all the time, you know. But beyond that, I’m like a very personal level, like I, if I could be only one thing, I would probably want to be a dancer, like, I love dance. I was in like, a semi professional ballet company here. And I did you know, the Nutcracker and performances, and I was dancing like 40 hours a week as a teen and stats, and I am 100% certain that like, some of the most joyful moments of my life would not have happened had I not been put in the hyena hyena club in like grade six, because I just didn’t even consider the dancing was this super cool thing that I would really enjoy. So little me is so excited that I got to share that story. Thank you for ask, you
Phil Rickaby
know what, just to follow up on that, like a lot of people have experiences they do some theatre in, in, in public school and in middle school and high school. But not everybody decides that that’s going to be the thing for them. Do you remember when you were like, Oh, this is it? For me? This is this is a career this is it?
Cassie Muise
And then, yeah, it was 100% when I got cast and at Green Gables. And it wasn’t actually it was actually being the lead even though obviously, like, that’s fun, too. Um, but I have always felt a real kinship with Anne, like, I always loved reading her. And I felt like, we would be friends. And we would be sisters. And so I felt like I really knew her. And so then being like, I get to bring to light this person. And it was a very imaginative kid, obviously. So being like, oh, my gosh, I get to, like, bring this person to life in the way that I know them. And I can do this for the rest of my life. Wow. And I’ve just never really want. The caveat is it’s not that I’ve always been an actor or that I’ve always been pursuing the arts, right. But for me, you know, when I’ve been like, oh, yeah, here’s a great marketing opportunity that I’m curious about, I’m gonna go work as a marketing coordinator as a marketing manager. And, you know, here’s an opportunity to, you know, do some teaching for a while. That’s kind of cool. I want to I want to figure that out. So it’s not like I’ve ever been single minded about what that looks like. But it has always been clear to me that like that. That’s the core of like, how I most want to interact with the world, you know?
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Did you go to theatre school or did you go straight to Toronto be like, This is it? Hey, the thing
Cassie Muise
I went through, right to Toronto when I went to Randolph Okay. Randolph programme for two years. And then I was working for you know, about six years in Toronto. No, and I was feeling like, I’m not. I was feeling like I was hitting the the wall of shit for sure. And also just like a bit of a plateau and I was like, I’m unsure if this is because I should be focusing on other artistic talents that I have to offer. Or if it’s the place that I’m in, like, maybe the city isn’t so great for me. And I’m also curious about, you know, I went to school when I was like, 18, to 20. And when I was like, 26, I was like, I understand myself so much more, and I see like, I would really be able to engage with education now. With, you know, more agency more per bed, like a more clear vision of like, what I actually want to get out of that. And also, I was like, you know, I go home when I was 18. And I practice my favourite, my favourite bars or my favourite songs or whatever, and then I come in the next week, I have no way I’m not getting any better at the hard bits, you know. So there are things like that, that I was just more aware of some of my tendencies that I was like, Okay, well, I’m not going to do that. So I went to Scotland to the Royal Conservatory of Scotland, and I did my masters in musical theatre there. And, yeah, that was transformative and, like, thrilling, and I loved studying there. The programme has changed a little bit since I’ve been there. But I still, you know, we, we did a workshop of God catcher in January of 2022, with the master students. And so I definitely still think sort of the, the thing that was most exciting for me, which was like, they want to empower you to like, decide what you want to learn, they want to challenge you, they also want to give you the tools to be able to walk out as a creative that has a voice, and also has multiple ways that they can engage with the arts. So whether that’s like teaching or choreographing, or directing or whatever they, they want to give you the tools to, like develop your artistry. And then of course, my singing voice also got way better. Because being in being having an amazing teacher and being like, you know, dedicated to doing, doing the actual work, I improved exponentially and, and being in a new place where I didn’t feel like anybody newbie was really liberating, you know, realise, I think how much you how much you, you know, a pledge becomes accustomed to the path that thing, right, you can’t grow any, any wider than that, or larger, or what taller, whatever. And so being there, it felt like I had been replot repotted into like, a much bigger pot. And I was like, Oh, I can do that. All right.
Phil Rickaby
That’s interesting, because I was just, you know, to two shows that I’ve, I’ve created taking the Fringe Festivals, none of them. I’ve premiered in Toronto, like that, because you take them somewhere else. Because if it’s not as good, he’s thinking, like, you know, you would need to get away from the people that you know, so you can sort of like risk a little bit more if, if, you know, nobody who knows is gonna come and see this, and maybe you could take a chance of being failing, you know,
Cassie Muise
yeah, totally. claim something that it’s like, it’s not necessarily bad, then we’ll know you and maybe have cast you as a role or have experiences with you that help. But like, we all grow, we change all the time, you know, and so sometimes to be able to sort of, like, make that change apparent to other people, or to experiment with that new version of yourself or your artistic choices, or whatever. Sometimes being in a different environment is actually the thing that is like fertiliser for that you know, and that’s not a negative comment about the people who know Yeah, no, no, no. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah. Now did I know you before you went to Scotland or after, did you did you So you asked before asked your lashes before you went to Scotland?
Cassie Muise
Yes. Well, it’s funny because I actually was always like, there should be a friend’s house musical and we had this
Phil Rickaby
conversation and like it didn’t bring this now because it was like it was like this idea that like like people will be waiting for like the show would start when the audience actually files in like there’s so much circus the ushers were the performers Yeah, yeah. How
Cassie Muise
many trips but you know, like, for me that was like more fun brain survey like chatting with you that it that it was like I’m actually going to dinner right this thing you know, but I do still take FLH front of house like somebody needs to properly write that show.
Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, one of the things about being an usher, especially one of the big, you know, theatres, it tends to do a lot of musicals in you tend to watch the same show a lot. Really, two things I want to talk about. One is the phenomenon of after a while the saw the whole show, running in your head, and you could turn to any fellow Usher and say where are you in the show and they could tell you what song there out in the show. Yeah. And you’re at a different point because it’s just constantly running in your head driving you slowly mad. Totally. But the other thing is that you can learn a lot about a show, how we construct it and what the weak points are. And also the weak points in the performances like, like, you learn a lot about performing a show over time, just by watching it a whole lot. Did you find things that you were able to learn just just watching the show over and over?
Cassie Muise
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the two things that I that I really took away from being an usher besides the fact that I’m like it, of course, it drove me crazy, right, of course, was pissed at you get annoyed out or whatever, but like, not really jarred me, like, I feel like, I would be very happy to do a similar job to that as long as I was able to do other things as well, like it was, it was beautiful. I definitely feel like the people, we were really, really consistent. Were never the people who will say, this, this might not quite work with us, but they were never the people who really were like, This is my whole life. And like this is like absolutely everything they were the people who had boundaries. They were the people who like came up in came out and didn’t seem were maps, they were the people who obviously, like really enjoyed what they were doing. But there were just people who they were the people that took vacations, right, they were the people who like, you know, really, and truly, I felt like they were treating it as as a job and not as much as an identity. And I was like, wow, that’s the person who lasted through six months, the best and who was consistently the best, even though some people would have really like beautiful performances, and then the next day, and it is amazing. So I have always sort of thought that it was interesting seeing that in action.
Phil Rickaby
Just to build on that. It’s interesting how you know, because I think a lot of people who go into this industry, it does become their identity, it becomes their whole life, and they don’t have vacation, and they don’t do take time for themselves, and they don’t have the pandemic hits, and you have no choice, but to sit and figure out who you are. And, and sort of like, you know, what am I outside of this something that maybe you didn’t have to consider before. And hopefully, that’s something that that you they take forward into the career and, like, realise the importance of those boundaries.
Cassie Muise
Totally. I just think it’s so convenient. Or the people who run these shows and make money off of people, for for artists to believe that they’re the ones who give us value. And that like is working is what it’s so convenient for them, right? Because it enables them to ask us to do things that are not beneficial for us, it enables them to have perhaps, I haven’t been in any particularly crazy, poor working conditions. But you know, we all hear the stories about that. It enables them to ask you to do things that like are dangerous for your body, like there’s just an end beyond that. It’s like it’s a lot easier to be used. If you’re feeling really like, this is the only way that I can get validation. And I just have like, there’s nothing wrong with being proud of your work. And there’s nothing wrong with feeling like, you know, art is your purpose, because I definitely feel like that. But I don’t feel like it is what defines me. And I don’t feel like it’s what gives me work. And I think that those things that like, I just hope everybody has emerged from from the Panini with a little bit more of a sense of that, because I also think it will, it enables them to deal with artwork safely. And when artists are doing that they have more longevity and more to give. So
Phil Rickaby
absolutely, you burn out less, you’re less likely to burn out when you have time for yourself. And most important lesson of the pandemic. It’s like how not to burn out because you need time for yourself. Totally.
Cassie Muise
And we need everybody you know, we need we need all artists we need we need us. So you know
Phil Rickaby
what I interrupted your thought about the things that you learned from watching a musical over and over again.
Cassie Muise
Oh, the thing that I learned the most from being an usher, which I do not think it’s something that I would have had otherwise. And some people talk a lot about how their vision is the goal of the art, right? Like I have this vision like this is what I want to do this is and engaging with audiences over and over again and seeing how affected they were by the shows. First of all, was like a real privilege. Like I often felt really just so grateful to see the effect that the art had on people and not people who were necessarily technical who could be like that’s a beat or you know, whatever. Like that, to me felt like a huge, a huge privilege and something that I was like I don’t want to judge this going forward and it’s specific example of that was, you know, the Wizard of Oz, when we were this beautiful, there was a lot of really lovely stuff. And there was a woman who was using like the handicap elevator and I hooked her up. And she was like an immigrant from India. And she said, You’re something you’re like, Oh, you’re excited to see the show? And she said, Yes. You know, like my brother when I like my brother basically raised me. And he used to play somewhere over the rainbow for me on a guitar that only had like one or two strings. I was like, Oh, wow. She said, Yeah, so I’m just like, I’m just gonna be thinking of him. And I’m so excited. And so when she came out at the end, I said, How was the show? And I’m, like, gonna get emotional. She said something like, it was like, having him allied with me again. And she was like, it was beautiful. It was so stunning. And I was like, you know, somewhere over the rainbow is not Sweeney Todd, or like things that I think of, in my like artistic brain as something that is like, it is of immense value. I don’t want to say that, but But certainly, like, it’s not what I would say like, well, this is the pinnacle of the crafts, you know. And so seeing people have those kinds of experiences and reactions, really, like change my opinion about the value of arts. And also, I want to make, I can’t make art that is accessible for every audience, like not everybody is going to resonate with the things that I do. But I’m like, making things that resonate with people in that way is more important to me than doing something that I think is you know, artistically a fascinating take on whatever. Yeah, I think that’s the biggest thing I learned from ushering actually I think it’s
Phil Rickaby
so important to to to accept the fact that you’re never going to make something that appeals to everybody. And when you try you fail, you please nobody. But if you if you were what is that from? The title of title of show? I’d rather be nine people’s favourite thing than 100 people my favourite?
Cassie Muise
Yeah, nine people save everything. Yeah, how’d you pick? Yeah, you’re on my die. You know, you have to just forget though, right? Like,
Phil Rickaby
do don’t don’t don’t think I didn’t sing it in my head before I said it. Don’t think I did. The other thing that what are the things that I learned from ushering is is the way that audiences talk, when they didn’t entirely enjoy the show. But they paid enough money that they think they should? Yeah, you know, because at a certain point, you don’t want to you don’t want to be leaving the show, saying, Well, that was terrible. Especially, you know, you’re walking out with a bunch of people, you paid a lot of money to want to be disappointed. People say things like, it’s such a good job. Yeah, every time I heard that, I was like, You did not like this show. Totally.
Cassie Muise
I’ve really lent it when people would say stuff. Like, while they were really just they really just given it up. They’re like, something like that, you know, like, wow, they really put their hearts into that. And
Phil Rickaby
yeah, you did not enjoy this show. This is not your show. But you know, everybody’s trying to put on the positive face. And it’s it’s funny, the way that that that people kind of lie to themselves was the in the moment, you know, like, because they don’t feel like they should dislike the show, but also, man, sometimes we put stuff on our stages, and people don’t enjoy it, or they feel like oh, maybe I just don’t understand theatre. Right? And then they’re like, Well, I guess I don’t need to go to theatre
Cassie Muise
anymore. Yeah, I think it’s really tricky too, though, because we have such a late, like access rate or level to the arts. And by that I mean that, like, I’m just gonna use the UK as an example. So the UK does pantomime every year. Not sure if you’re familiar with pantomime, it’s, you know, like, a silly Christmas show. It’s usually like Mother Goose. But there’s some sort of Dane which is a Christian and Dragon. It’s funny, and kids are allowed to, like, bring it like lightsabers. And there’s Colin answer. And a lot of it is, you know, has been established for a long, long time. But for most people in the UK, this is that’s the third reduction to the theatre, right? So they feel like they belong there. And then that means that as you grow through life, you have less of a barrier to feeling like you can engage with it in a like that there’s a correct way to engage with it, right? Because you’re just like, Well, I’ve been fucking going to pant
sorry. We can fuck it’s where it’s okay.
Bound was like, Yeah, I’m going to Pintas since I was talking five years old, I like I’ve you know, been up on stage or they wish me happy birthday or whatever. So those people don’t feel they feel like they belong in the theatre, at least and they go at least to panto every year. I like the pentose sell out everywhere. Yeah. Where he’s here. Like there were I remember there being someone coming to the Wizard of Oz, and they were 65 years old. And I was like, Are you excited to see the show? And it was a man and his wife and said, I’m so excited. This is my first ever play. I’ve been to Pixar. Great. Wonderful. Yeah, you know, don’t don’t throw water on the ledge. Okay. You know, like stop banter. Yeah. Like, and people do that because they feel like they don’t belong, because they feel like they they don’t understand what we want from them. And then beyond that base feel bad for not the anyway, we all feel bad when we’re not part of the club. Right? Yeah. So, I mean, part of me is just like what everybody needs to do is people need to start people need to start doing like panto and like shows that are, like, engage all audiences that are low pressure that are, you know, like, I just, I really feel like, we need to invite people more in a way that they feel comfortable in from an earlier age, I absolutely believe that.
Phil Rickaby
I also think that we need to change the way that we talk about theatre, we need to start we need to, we need to stop the average audience goer, not the regular theatre goers, the average person who might go to see a show doesn’t care about the artistic merit, they want to know if they’re going to enjoy it. What’s the show about? What’s the style? Am I going to enjoy it? You look at a Hollywood movie trailer and shirt, some of them are trash and some of them live, but like at least, what do you watch it you’re like, I understand this is in my wheelhouse. I’m going to enjoy this. But we do that so badly. When we’re talking about theatre. That it sometimes it’s no wonder that people are like, I don’t know, I don’t want to spend like $80 on a ticket for a show. I might not like I don’t know what this is. Somebody told me, you know, a lot
Cassie Muise
of they. And I mean, on top of that, and this is just a personal feeling. But I think that we expect a lot from audiences, right? We expect them to be really brave in the wit when they come into the show. And I don’t think that the industry meets them with the same bravery. I don’t think we like cast. I mean, I don’t just mean diversity, although I definitely mean diversity, but it’s like, we kept a lot of the same people and things right. And we don’t take chances on a lot. I mean, the fact that like I, I did, you know message a few people in Canada about God catcher, and then it’s like messaging overseas, in Scotland in the Edinburgh Fringe Festival at like, at the underbelly where they programme six, they like read through the script, and not even a good one, one like, like, you know, eight months ago or whatever. And they not only were like this is exactly the kind of thing that we want to programme like new writers, etc, etc. He like wrote a letter of recommendation for me to get a Kindle Earth Council grant, you know, so I’ve looked at the, the I look at this sort of bravery in supporting like, new work or work that hasn’t been like, vetted in some way. And I don’t think the Canadian industry is quite there yet with like, material with casting and, and with in other ways. And so I think it’s unfair that we expect the audience’s to be really brave, and we don’t say
Phil Rickaby
anything. No, it’s absolutely true. It’s absolutely true. We have a tendency to go ahead. I was just gonna
Cassie Muise
say, because they know, right, like, they know, they know, they can tell what they can tell when it’s like, Whoa, that was like different and interesting. Or like, Oh, that was like, crackly and like, we’ve never seen anything like that or like that. Like, even if they don’t like if they do know when the the team is taking breaths. Yeah, it can feel it. Absolutely. And
Phil Rickaby
they know when they’ve been told that there’s that somebody’s taking a risk. And they’re not because a lot of shows use risk or innovative and things like that. And an audience goes in there like and it feels like a thing that I’ve probably seen before, you know, you know, yeah, yeah,
Cassie Muise
totally. Especially because I think that audiences like, it doesn’t actually need to be like, the, the bar is low for being risky, right? Because it’s like, you could do like Hamlet over and over again. And if you’re like, casting new people, if you’re like, bringing on new directors, right, like if you’re incorporating elements that you traditionally don’t like, these are all things that are actually not that risky, but people could come and see Hamlet every year and be like, last year, Hamlet was like this, this man and this year was played by like four young actors. And then the next year was played by a deaf person. And there was ASL, it was incredible. You felt isolated, just like teeth. Like there’s so there’s just so many opportunities, even with the same piece of theatre. Yeah. And, and I get it because, like, expensive, and especially because Canada is so large, it’s one of the beautiful things about about the country. But it does mean that the viability of like, a tour or something like that, it’s just, it’s it is more challenging, right. You’re like
Phil Rickaby
the stages for it. We don’t have the stages to be able to like, and although, you know, we see some limitations in programming and things like that, like you were saying, but a lot of that comes from the fact that we have like, very few stages. We have very few large stages, as well. So it’s like you know, there users are not necessarily willing to take a risk because of the fact that like, they have to fill this many slots. The money’s on the line, all this sort of stuff. And how do you how do you do that? When your money is scarce and audiences, you, you’ve convinced yourself that audiences are apathetic and all this stuff, it’s all it’s all very hard, because you know, you’re looking at like, in the States, there’s so many theatres, right, you could do it. Or I could tour and like tour for years in different cities, and pop over to Canada to Toronto once that tour around and then pop over to Vancouver or whatever, like, just like these little little forays, but we don’t have the stages to sustain that in Canada. Sadly,
Cassie Muise
I mean, I think I’m really hopeful for the next like, 10 years in, in theatre in Canada, because I do think everybody wants to, you know, solve the problem, quote, unquote, like, I don’t think that we’re necessarily making the boldest choices that we can make. But I do think that people, I really do believe that everybody wants to contribute to a more vibrant Canadian scene. And so if you’re all on the same team, then you’re eventually going to row in the same direction, you know, so I am hopeful.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, really. I mean, if I wasn’t hopeful, I would pack up this this podcast stop, get and never get on the stage again. Right. So like, yeah, it’s definitely something that I’m keen on and that I think a lot of people are just as we sort of started to run out of time here I want to talk about a little more specifically about the Edinburgh Fringe and your preparations for Edinburgh Fringe. How do you feel? I mean, it’s still about a month or so away? How do you feel getting ready for that? What’s your, your general feeling about getting ready to go to the biggest syringe in the world?
Cassie Muise
Honestly, I’m scared shitless I’m not gonna lie, I’m not gonna pretend I’m not gonna, like, you know, put up well, I am happy. But I am absolutely terrified. And I do think that one of the things that I am just so grateful for that I, you know, like, Thank you past me for having the foresight to like, collaborate with other people and not try and take this on myself, which is a mistake that I have made many times throughout my life, we have a set of CO producers in is based in London and in Malta, or at abre. And, and London, but also in mould that and they’re called prickly pear productions. They’re like, female led female centre, they also have a show with the fringe at a different venue that’s called walking home. And it’s part verbatim, like some of it is, it’s a lot of it is compiled from responses to surveys from women, and it’s all about exploring sexual assault, and like women existing in public spaces, so you know, they’re doing work that like I’m really excited about and so to have them over there, championing us and being like, in so on the ground and feeling like in the moments where I’m really overwhelmed, I have not just Tyler but other people that aren’t writing God catcher to, to help with that burden. Is it gives me a real sense of, of safety, you know, so that, that is that that’s like been like saving grace? You know?
Phil Rickaby
I think it’s, I think I personally think it’s smart to be afraid of Edinburgh. Like, it’s smart. To have fear of it, because you’re respected. It’s like getting into a lion’s cage. Like, if you’re just like, Fuck it, whatever. Maybe, you know, but like, you have to understand the thing that you’re that you’re going to, and, and it is it is a monster, and you have to be prepared to do do the exhausting battle with a monster. You know it the Canadian friends like the Edmonton fringe is is massive for Canada,
Cassie Muise
and exhaust the largest in the world. Did you know that?
Phil Rickaby
It was it’s not anymore, one of the Australian ones over took it I know. I know. But it’s the largest in Canada, it was the number two in the world. And you, you know, you do the two weeks of that and you come out exhausted where you’re like I’ve done battle with a beast. But it doesn’t. It’s pretty tame you did battle with a baby bear. It’s like the like some of the other friends is you go to like Edwards bag. And it’s good that you have people there because I think that it’s a mistake to go to Edinburgh and be like I’m doing all myself. You need people on the ground there to work with you and to do what they’re doing for you.
Cassie Muise
Yeah, absolutely. I think I’m sure that you know this. It’s like you have so many blind spots going into things it’s inevitable. There’s like what you know, what, you know, you don’t know and what you don’t know you don’t know. And that’s always like the biggest part of the pie right? So when you have for people who don’t know like that, that pie gets a little bit smaller, you know? But honestly, I Think I am trying to remind myself in in these moments that it’s like, just being at the fringe. It was a dream that I had, like two years ago, or your and my, my, my old roommate, Robert Wilkinson. They said to me recently, like you said, you were gonna do this, and you did it. So no matter what happens, like you did the thing you said you’re going to do, and that is wonderful. I’m just so excited to be surrounded by art. So I’m trying to remember those things in spite of this year that it’s like, actually, if your goal is to tell the story and connect with people, well, guess what, that’s going to happen. So
Phil Rickaby
it’s the stage for it. It’s the place for it, you know, you’re gonna be surrounded by stuff. That’s, that’s amazing. So you can do is like, lay the groundwork, do the best work you can and then try to have fun while you’re there. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Well, Cassie, thank you so much for talking with me this evening. I really appreciate your time, and it was a great conversation.
Cassie Muise
Thank you for having me.
Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcasts, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings helps new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy end my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod. And you can find the website with the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at PhilRickaby. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy
