#370 – Keith Brown
Keith Brown is a World-Class Magician, Speaker, and VIP Entertainer that has inspired wonder in over 22 countries and counting! Most recently performing for the President and First Lady of Iceland. He was chosen Toronto’s BEST magician… and he’s not even from Toronto!
When not touring his show publicly in the summer, Keith can be found entertaining at private and corporate events or helping MBA students and business executives hone their effective communication and presentation skills.
www.absolutemagic.ca
Twitter: @keithhbrown
Instagram: @keithhbrown
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Transcript
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Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years, but I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.
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Keith Brown is a world class magician speaker and VIP entertainer. He will be bringing his incredible magic to the Toronto Winnipeg and Edmonton Fringe Festivals. In this conversation we talked about how he got started in magic, how he became the guy who performed for Dave Grohl, how he approaches creating a magic so and much more. Here’s our conversation
during the pandemic, did you do a lot of zoom shows?
Keith Brown
Oh yeah, I did a lot of zoom shows. I also started producing for other people. So me and my friend John Patterson, who’s like a 25 year fringe that started fringe live stream and we saw fringe artists and we gave them all the money. We ran it just like a fringe. And because of that people took notice and people started hiring us. So there’s a local company in town like I’ve done CFL and, and Grand Slams of curling for them for like the past year. To send that out to an international audience. Other people wanted us to host their their conference online. So there’s still stuff that I do like I did a stream gig earlier today that ended up being for American Express kind of thing. As well as all of that sort of informed my last fringe show, which was at the Toronto fringe last year, because I spent all this time and money learning these skills and acquiring this knowledge. So I more or less did a zoom magic show. But in a theatre where I was like, Look, I’m going to do a card trick to the camera, but we’re going to put it in, put it on a giant movie screen. Alright. So it’s been really nice to like learn a new skill, and actually be able to apply it rather than like that was fun and shelve it. Because I know a lot of friends have had to resell all of this equipment. And like someone just paid me to be on a movie set to take one of their cameras and send it to a team’s meeting. Right. So it’s been the last three years have been crazy. Is is was the long answer to your question.
Phil Rickaby
I do think that it’s too bad that so many people, you know, they invested in the camera, they invested in the equipment. And then you know, they felt like they needed the I don’t need this anymore. I can get rid of it when they think that there are definite transferable skills that people that people could use. And, you know, I mean, a lot of us were theatre performers, but we, you know, we don’t particularly like the online video, but I do still think it has a place.
Keith Brown
Absolutely. And you know, like you can learn even just being a zoom stage manager and helping someone facilitate a call and making it run smoother than it would have like a grandma or grandpa being like how do I unmute and dealing with those issues. There’s so many transferable skills, but I definitely leaned into the tech side and behind the scenes aspect in the last three years. So it has been nice to get back to the stage and take some of those skills and be like look, I didn’t just sit at home and grow this beard actually did learn a few things as well and get to showcase that. Yeah,
Phil Rickaby
I did speak to Johnny P. Just as as A fringe live stream was getting started back in 2020. And that was it was a really fascinating thing to see happen. Now for yourself, you are heading into it when you get it to the Toronto Fringe Festival. It’ll be your 43rd Fringe Festival.
Keith Brown
Yes.
Phil Rickaby
That’s a lot fringing
Keith Brown
it is. I started in my hometown of London, Ontario. And more or less, I did that a few times. And then people were like, hey, where else are you going? Like, that’s the number one question you get asked on tour as an artist, like what other cities I’m going to see you in. And I was like, Hey, I’m not. And then sure enough, this is actually my ninth anniversary of going on tour. So I just went to Orlando for the first time. Orlando was the first city I ever went to that was not my hometown. It was like biggest festival fall by biggest festival fall by biggest festival I’ve ever done. And Orlando was the first city that was not my hometown. And I first went there in 2014. And I got to go for three years in a row. And I just went back for the first time in like six or seven years. So it was a real treat to be back. And to like reconnect with all these people that I’ve met in prior years, whether they’re friends or patrons to like, there’s a little boy who comes with his, well, he’s not little anymore. But he comes with his grandma every year. And then this year, he’s 14. He’s taller than me. So yeah, it’s been pretty amazing to do 40 Plus festivals, I think I’ll be like at 45 by the end of the summer. And it’s just pretty cool to make all these connections and to get to go back every year and make new friends and see your see Robles. Have you mostly
Phil Rickaby
done the Canadian fringe circuit? Or have you gone further afield of events say Orlando,
Keith Brown
I’ve mostly done the Canadian circuit in Orlando is actually part of the Canadian Association. They played by the Canadian rules. So technically, they are the first stop in the Canadian Tour even though they are in America. And then you come up and then you kind of start in Ontario and work your way west. But to answer your question, some of the other festivals that I’ve done that are outside of Canada is I did the Fresno rogue Festival, which is a small little like a Fringe Fest in Fresno California is the only fest I’ve done that has dark days on Mondays and Tuesdays and everyone is just happy you are visiting. So at a very good time. Every single day someone took me somewhere whether that was to a restaurant or a bar or a park, they were just like happy to show me where they’re from. And then the other one that I did is I did the Icelandic fringe or the Reykjavik fringe, two years in a row.
Phil Rickaby
I’ve been fascinated by that that festival, because it does it happens when they have like, the full daytime doesn’t it is like it the sun doesn’t set during fringe.
Keith Brown
Correct. Like the sun does not go down. So like you can be going home. And it’s like midnight, or it’s like three in the morning. But like the sun is just up in it looks beautiful. So yeah, I got to go for the first year they did it as well as I think the second year. Now I got to now we gotta check that document I sent you. It’s hard like when you when you’ve done this, many cringes they kind of blend together. So I’m like, oh, yeah, you know, I went on tour right after I got out of school. And then I would have done these cities and these cities. So I would have done Reykjavik in 2018 was their first year and in 2019. But yeah, during, like the sun does not set. And it’s kind of crazy. Like I didn’t even notice it for the first few days. Like I wasn’t paying attention. And then I was like, Oh yeah, it’s gonna be like this whole time. So good luck going to sleep. But I would read time there. You really need
Phil Rickaby
blackout curtains or something for that. Yeah,
Keith Brown
but the nice part is you can walk home at 3am and it looks like the middle of the day. So it’s not like you’re walking down like a road in the middle of a dark by yourself kind of thing. As well as everyone there is super friendly. Like the the police don’t have guns. People leave their babies in the carriage outside of the shop. Like no one’s stealing the baby. They’re just though it’s just a giant, small town that happens to be on an island and most of those people do live in Reiki.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, that’s pretty awesome. That’s pretty awesome. And it’s it’s it’s a I mean, I know that the being an I’ve been to Iceland and everybody’s pretty fluent in English, but the fringe is is is is also English or is it like English and Icelandic and other languages as well.
Keith Brown
It’s kind of everything. It’s whatever you bring. It was mostly English. They did have a bunch of dance and drag shows. They also have a lot comedy shows because they have a comedy bar right downtown. But I do remember like, there was some shows where it’s like, there was a show, for some reason I want to say was in German or something, but like, they had shows that it was like, Hey, I came from Europe. This is my country. This is what I’m doing it in. There’s definitely shows in Icelandic. One of the shows I do remember that I couldn’t participate in was they had a phone walking tour. So you showed up at a spot. They gave you like an armband, you call a number. And it was like a guided tour around the city. But it was like a ghost tour or like this, rather than just tell you historical facts. They took some liberties with it, and had some fun. And I couldn’t participate because my it would have it would have killed my phone bill.
Phil Rickaby
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, you know, here’s the here’s something that I’m curious about. Because, you know, I mostly speak to two actors, directors, stage managers, things like that. But you’re my first magician, aside from Eric Wolf from Eldridge theatre. So you’re my first I
Keith Brown
love Eric wool, and I actually saw him he’s in the new FUBAR on on Netflix, right? Yes, yeah. And I took a photo of that today. And I was like, Eric, is this you? Like, what? And he’s like, that’s me. So he’s, he’s one of my favourite performers. He’s very underrated. I would go see anything that he puts on,
Phil Rickaby
I am a huge fan of eldritch theatre, I feel like I talk about them every week, just somehow, they come up and they come up in conversation. So I’m also a fan. One thing that I don’t I know how a player’s put together, you know, how to how a solo players put together. When you’re putting together a magic show. What is that process? Like? How do you decide? Is there a is there a storyline? Is there a through line? How does how does a magic show come together?
Keith Brown
That’s a great question. There was definitely a few years where I rolled into my tech. And they’re like, hey, so let’s see your scripts. And I was like hammering that piece of paper. And I wrote down a setlist and I was like we’re doing this. And they’re like, What does this mean? There’s like eight words on a piece of paper. I was like, Yeah, I’m going to do those strips in between each trick. You’re going to change the lights, we’re going to do the show. And they’re like, how will we know it’s over. And I’m like, they’ll applaud and then a new bit will start, like, none of none of the tech is inherent to the storytelling. Like, if we miss this blackout, we’re not going to ruin the moment kind of thing. So there was definitely like, when I discovered fringes, I was already working as a magician. And then I saw someone, Nick Wallace, who’s a fantastic magician, he did the London fringe, and I kind of went checked it out, he did it a few times. And then eventually I was like, hey, like, I kind of want to apply to this thing. I don’t want to step on your toes. And he said, Go for it. So it’s just taking my existing material that I was doing in like a corporate environment and putting it in a theatre setting. However, like when you return to a festival, you’re gonna get some some of the same people. You’re like, well, I got to do new stuff for you. So there’s some times I was like, Look, I really liked the skeleton of this show. And there’s like a through line that ties it all together. Well, I’m going to take up the pieces in the middle and replace them so you can see me again, and it’s, it’s like a new show, but it’s similar. And then one year, I actually didn’t want to write a new show. So I did a choose your own adventure magic show where I was like, look, it’s been like seven years of me touring. I’m like running out of stuff to like, it’s hard. Like, it takes a long time to learn a magic trick and make it good, and make it play with an audience. So I’m more or less was like, Look, I’m gonna bring two to three hours worth of stuff, and you get to choose. So it’s probably something you’ve seen me do before. But you could come back every night and see something different, which was very enticing with this show the show that I’m doing this year. I was just in Toronto fringe last year. And I’m kind of having a dilemma of like, Oh, can I tell a story that I might have told last year? Or do I have to give them something new? Typically, I do a new show in an old city and an old show in a new city. And like Orlando hasn’t seen me in a long time. So I mostly did new stuff. But like some of the that stuff Toronto has seen. So part of it is Hey, have I been to this city before? How recently? Are they going to remember this trick? Are they going to be like bored if they see this again, but Toronto mostly saw me do like a table Magic Show, which is a lot of close up card magic to a camera just like this. So I can I can do a lot different. But to answer your question, sometimes it starts with just the trick. Sometimes you have one idea and right now in this new show. There’s one idea there’s one piece that I’m wearing really working on that I want to share with audiences. And the rest is just like build up to that. But also like, how do you write a magic show, I feel like I’ve been writing this magic show my whole life. Because I take little pieces, and I change things, or something cool happens to me, like all the stories that I tell in my show are real things that happened to me. And people are like, Oh, just write a new story. I’m like, Well, that took like 16 years of my life. And that other story took like another 10 years to happen, like I would love for cool stuff to happen to me every day. But sometimes it takes time for that real life inspiration to happen, but mostly like, it’s just practising and doing in front of an audience over and over again. And I choose tricks that I like, that are my favourites, and hopefully the audience enjoys them as well. But I am trying to become a better writer and incorporate more of my stories that only I can tell and make it more than just a disjointed bag of tricks, per se, like a collection of tricks that does mean something that does have a through line that are connected in some way. Because a lot of times when I work, I asked myself the question, is this a thinking audience or a drinking audience? And a lot of corporate events, they’re drinking audiences. So I’m like, Look, you need a firework show, you need a boom, wow, boom, wow, I don’t have the chance to tell you stories or really get to know you. I’m just here to facilitate some fun. Whereas like a fringe audience, you’re coming to see me. And hopefully, you might have been drinking at the beer tent. But you’re more of a thinking audience, there’s a lot more like I can be a little bit weirder. And fringe, I can tell more stories, and get away with a lot more at a theatre festival, because you’re coming to see me on my own terms, versus inviting me into your own home.
Phil Rickaby
You know, you mentioned about practice. And I think you mentioned you know how long it takes to to learn a trick. And I think that the average person doesn’t have a clue how long it takes a magician to learn a trick how much time and tedium it takes to perfect a trick for audience without revealing anything about about the trick, like about how long does it take to free to learn a trick?
Keith Brown
It depends on the tricks. And I would say Okay, so I’m 31 I got interested in magic, like six or seven got out of it a bit got back into when I was about 10. And then someone offered me a job when I was like 13. And it just kind of snowballed and went from there. But like in the high school, I was practising anywhere from six to 10 hours a day, like my mum would ask me to go clean my room and within 10 minutes, you could hear a deck of cards shuffling, or I’d practice like under the desk, in class and stuff. And some teachers didn’t like that other teachers would encourage it and like give me to perform at the end of class kind of thing. So I don’t practice that much anymore. Like I don’t have the time for it. But I do always handle like a deck of cards or play with something I find more my practice now is in the performance in the audience management. And like the improv because people say stuff to you that you’re like, I can never plan this I can all the funniest stuff in my show, someone genuinely said, and I had a good response for it. And then we hopefully kind of guide that situation. But I would say like when I was younger, I was learning the notes. If we want to make an analogy to music, like I learned all the notes. When I was younger, I can still learn new notes. But for the most part, I’m asking myself what song do I want to play what song fits my voice, and I’m a lot more selective now. Whereas like when I was a kid, I would learn anything and everything just for the sake of learning it. So now some things are easier to pick up because I already have learned the notes. But it’s like fine tuning it and making it actually sound like music, rather than just garbage. But some things you can pick up very quickly. Like there is a trick that literally cost 10 to $15. And I could teach you it in 10 minutes. And it’s an amazing magic trick. Because the the the apparatus in this case is doing most of the work for you. However, there’s like something I’ve been practising my whole life like one one piece of sleight of hand that I never use. It’s more just for me, and I don’t think it’ll ever really be perfect. It’s more just like a challenge for me. And maybe every once in a while I might use it like a one on one. But I never use it in my every day magic. So there’s some muscles that I’m like, Look I can I can practice and flex and lift these weights all I want, but I never think I will reach that goal. I might get closer. But then there’s other stuff that like I could teach you in 10 Minutes had to do this trick. And it’s more the presentation and how you package it. So to answer your question, it’d be a very short amount of time. But I think being a really good magician, you’re going to put in countless 1000s of hours. And then once you do learn the notes, then you’re going to spend 1000s of hours playing the notes. So for me right now, I would rather like put my time practising the business of magic, or in actually the performance of magic and be like, hey, you know what? This performance? I didn’t really connect with that audience, and how can I fine tune that and make it a little bit better? Whereas like, I know, I’m always gonna play the notes. But how do I make you care about the notes that I play? Or how do I just inject my voice into it? So if anyone else were to do this magic, you’d hear my words coming out of your mouth kind of thing, huh?
Phil Rickaby
I mean, you mentioned uh, you know, starting magic, pretty interested interested in magic pretty young. Were you aside from from the magic? Were you a born performer was performing something that you were interested in? Or was it like, you were interested in magic and performing sort of had to come out of that?
Keith Brown
That’s a great question. To be honest, no one’s ever asked me that before. I think they kind of went hand in hand. I guess one thing to consider is, I’m the youngest of three boys. So and we all had an interest in magic in some degree or another, like my one brother, love, the history and the stories of magic, my middle brother did learn some tricks. And that’s actually where I learned my first trick. Like, he got a paid gig before I ever did. But we also like we were always in the school plays and things like that. So I don’t know, I just, I found magic to be a way that I could express myself, as well as like, it did make me focus on communication skills, like my brothers used to always poke fun of me that I would tell stories that would just and they would have, it was like, and then what is like, that’s it. And now meanwhile, like people pay me to tell stories on stage and communicate ideas. So magic was a way for me to learn communication skills, and self confidence, and all these other things. But I also did, like, I was in all the school plays in public school, I was in a couple in high school, and then I did go to theatre and film school. So like, I do find, they both went hand in hand and would complement each other a lot. But Magic, magic is also just interesting, like, a good magic trick can carry a bad performer. So there’s definitely a lot of years of that happening. But it did allow me to just pay, you’re gonna get better the more that you do this, and I’m going to take every opportunity to do that. You know, I will hopefully bridge the gap a little bit is what I’m trying. Yeah,
Phil Rickaby
absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I was when I was a kid, I was fascinated by magic still am magic is like, I’m a nerd for magic. I don’t do it. But I’d love to watch it. Um, so But when I’m that probably comes from when I was a kid. And since I’m an old man, it was the 70s. And since it was the 70s, Doug Henning before he went off, a little weird. He was the big name in magic, doing like Blockbuster specials on television. And it was just like, that sort of sort of got me got me like, really interested in what and just watching magic being an audience for magic. I think when I was a kid, and it never occurred to me, so how did he do that? It was just like, cool. Like, just like being amazed by it.
Keith Brown
Right? I think one of the secrets to Doug’s success is he’s just as amazed as you are. Like, he gets to revel in the magic just as much as you do. And a lot of people, myself included, get into magic because they saw something cool. And they had this wonderful moments. Where like, you know, door to creativity, infinite possibility wonder like that childlike sense of play. You’re just like, Oh, my God, I don’t understand. But this is fun. Well, when you learn magic, you get that less. So I get to vote. Like the way for me to experience magic is if a magic friend who is more skilled than me, just fools the pants off of me, which does happen just but not nearly as much as it used to. Or I live vicariously through my audience. And I think Doug is a great example of that of just he’s just as amazed as you are. And he is just like, a grateful that we get to cherish this moment. So Doug has always been an inspiration of mine.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Keith Brown
Yeah. Would you like to know, a Doug Henning story?
Phil Rickaby
Oh, 100%. I would love to know a gigantic story.
Keith Brown
So he they used to do those TV specials live like live to air? Well, one of them. A tiger got loose backstage, someone do didn’t lock the cage. So Doug is doing his show. And unbeknownst to him, there is a tiger roaming the hallway. And the studio found out about this and was like, cool, it is now alive to take, like, we’re gonna film this. And then we’re gonna hit play live, but we can’t take the risk of a tiger mauling someone on live TV. So will will still produce your specials, but they won’t like they will go live to air they’ll be live to take, essentially.
Phil Rickaby
Mm hmm. I wonder how we felt. I mean, obviously, you can’t really argue with the Tiger got loose. Somebody could die argument. But I wonder how he felt about that. Because there’s, there was something about the fact that like, it’s live, right? There’s that dynamic thing? Because I remember when I was a kid watching him do the the water torture trick, you know, like being in there in the hall? Like, oh, no, he’s been in there too long. And then like somebody runs out with the, with the axe to break him out. And it’s him under like this like, outfit like, blew my mind. But if his life to take the sort of, there’s something about the it’s, it’s, if it’s live, you have that danger of like, oh my god, like if he died, like there’s no way for them to like cut away they this is it, if it’s live to tape, you sort of lose a little bit of that. The danger of the wonder of the moment,
Keith Brown
right. And that’s one of the problems like with magic on TV is you can always justify it, you can always put it in a box. So you can live the rest of your life. And you can back Hey, well, you know what they were in on it. There’s cameras, they were tricks and stuff, the show is still live, it’s just not it’s happening maybe an hour or so later than it actually did just in case, a tiger did get out that they could deal with that problem. Rather than have to say technical difficulties, and then be in the newspaper the next day for randomly got mauled by a tiger.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. You mentioned that magic moment, the moment where you were you know, you saw magic for the first time and that made you want to do that. What was that for you? Or was it like, your brother’s doing magic before you?
Keith Brown
It was my brother’s doing magic before me. So my eldest brother, Aaron went to a magic show. And he got Mark Wilson’s complete course of magic, which is this big black book. And there’s like a magician wearing a tuxedo, you don’t see their face. But it’s just like this magic textbook. He tried to learn some of the tricks, but it didn’t really you just didn’t have an affinity for it or the patients. But he loved like the stories about Houdini. And then my middle brother Woody, he actually learned a trick or two from another book, as well as that one. Around the time David Blaine was becoming popular again. So I had this vivid memory of my brother woody making my playing card appear on the other side of my parents window, and like their dining room. And I needed to know like, not only did I want to know, I needed to know, and I just bugged him, I was like, You need to tell me like, how did you do it? How do you do? How do you do it. And he finally, like, showed me this book, and showed me a trick or two. And then the both of us we would perform for our parents friends when they come over for dinner. We annoyed a lot of them. But then we got into other stuff like there, it was just like a fad kind of growing up. But then a number of years later, I saw a video on E bombs world if anyone remembers that website. But it was this amazing trick. I’ve since learned how to do that trick. But I wanted I was like I need to understand, I need to know. And so I found our old magic books, one of which was this complete course. And then I just started like Googling and searching and I found more and more resources. And more or less one question kind of led to the next and to another one to another one. And now all of a sudden you’re interviewing me on this podcast, and it’s been like 20 years, which is crazy to me. So it always came from like a place of curiosity, a place of passion. And luckily like opportunities just kept coming but when I was younger, we had a couple books my middle brother when he showed me a trick, but then we found other books or we found like VHS is and magic DVDs. I went to workshops, lectures and conventions. I’ve been with a magic camp. Yeah, I was a magic camp for like six years I was a counsellor at Magic camp.
Phil Rickaby
Of course I part of me is like there’s a magic camp but of course there’s a magic camp. Um, you you you’ve performed for for some some some amazing famous people. The President first lady of Iceland for example, Dave Grohl? Okay, I have to ask how did the Dave Grohl thing come about? When did he come to his show? Or where did you just have the opportunity to like a cost him with magic.
Keith Brown
I was kind of in the right place at the right time. I was in Vancouver for the Vancouver fringe. It was either I think it was the first first year that I was there. But all the shows for the most part are on Granville Island. There’s a bunch of nice theatres there. And I was just kind of walking behind some of the shops through this park. And there was a picnic table. And I was I’m like, far away, and I just look over. And then I double take, and I’m looking at him being like, you look like the guy like, Are you and he sees me. And he just looks at me. He’s like, Yes, I’m him. And I walk over and he’s in crutches. And this is when he broke his leg. And he’s sitting at this picnic table with another guy who’s just like having a smoke and join his coffee kind of thing. And telling the story of his broken leg of how Hey, I broke it. They wanted to take me to the hospital, I said, we have a show. So they drive him to the show. There’s three doctors waiting for him. They whip up a temporary cast. He sits in a chair for like 45 minutes an hour, a doctor holds his leg in place. He plays the show, they put him in a junior ambulance, take him to hospital, give them a real cast. So he’s just telling the story. And they have a show in Vancouver the next day. And I was just like, hey, look, I’m a fan. I like what you do. I’m a fan of your art. Can I show you mine? I’m a magician. He’s like, Sure. So I showed him and this guy three tricks. And he even was like, Hey, let’s include buddy, like, because I did one or two to him. And I was like, Yeah, of course, like, come here, like both of you can do this trick. And then I got him to sign a playing card for me. And I was and we took a photo together. And I was like look like I really appreciate your time. I don’t want to like, you know, take up any more of your day. And then it was around then people kind of noticed they’re like, hey, like what’s happening over there? Who is that kind of thing. And I waited a few hours for him to like leave Granville Island before I posted this photo. And it blew up it’s like one of the best pieces of content of all time that I’ve ever posted. Cuz like not only for fringe, people liking it, but like foo fighter fans were liking it. Well then the very next day, I’m hand billing in line at the Vancouver fringe. And I just walk up to someone I was like, hey, I want to tell you, and they’re like, you’re the you’re the guy that met Dave Grohl. And I was like, what? Like, you’re the guy who met Dave Grohl? I hear you have a magic show. And I was like, yes, like, here is the card. I mean, it was the best, like one of the best pieces of marketing ever. But I just happen to be in the right place at the right time and be friendly enough to be like, Hey, man, can I take a few minutes of your time and just like show you a card trick? Thanks for like your music over all the years and left him alone. Cuz I didn’t want to like hey, everybody he’s on. He’s on Granville Island kind of thing. Because like he’s he’s walking around in crutches and he’s got to show the next day. So luckily, like he was super nice, like, just upstanding, very nice guy. Let me do three tricks for him sign this playing card sent me on my way. But then by the next day, everyone was like, You’re the guy who met Dave Grohl, I want to come to your magic show. So it made marketing the fringe so much easier. And I used to have that on business cards for years. I probably still do. But people are like, really? And then I have to bring up the photo and like show them the photo. It’s it’s buried on my Instagram somewhere. I’ll have to find it for you. But it’s
Phil Rickaby
gotta it’s gotta be I mean, from his perspective, it’s got to be difficult to be Dave Grohl sitting at a picnic table in a city. Just to, you know, have a moment to himself.
Keith Brown
He did mention that he was like, Look, I tried to go to Granville, so like, people wouldn’t recognise me but here I am. And I just mostly was like, Look, I’m gonna respect that and try not to make too much of a moment of this for you like and just let you have a good time and have a good show the next day and two friends did go and they’re like, we wanted to make a sign that says like, we know the magician kind of thing which made me laugh. So it’s
Phil Rickaby
it’s one of the things that you get to end up using as the end up being like promotional tools like you would you wouldn’t have thought at the time that like doing magic for Dave Grohl and getting a picture with him would do anything for your show. And yet no.
Keith Brown
But I will say I’ve come to learn that I am a promo sexual. I will do anything for promo. Any fit. Like, I just know. That’s how I’m wired. So yeah, like there’s other people that I’ve met that I’m like, oh, I need a quote from you. Like I need you to say something, please. And like this is going to end up on a business card or on the website or even in the show. Because like the first lady of Iceland that is now like a 10 minute story in my show. And one of the best quotes I ever got, like I did, I did not make, I’ll be honest, I did not make any money in Iceland, I subsidised my trip to Iceland at a very good time. But I got the best marketing in the world because the first lady of Iceland came to my show the first year. And then the second year, I more or less invited myself to an event. And then the First Lady and the President showed up, and the little boy remembered me and was like, can you show magic to my dad? And I was like, of course, like, Are you kidding me? Like I would love to. So now that’s like a 10 minute story in the show, as well as, like, people are just kind of blown away by that. And I just can’t believe that literally sending an email of hey, would you like to come to my magic show was enough to make that happen?
Phil Rickaby
Wild as as a pro homosexual. That one of the things that as somebody I’ve done toward a little bit of fringe, but the hardest thing for me has always been the promo. And there’s really two kinds of of people who are on the fringe circuit. There are people for whom it feels like second nature, and they’re out there. And it seems like they’re just like, at ease doing the thing. And then there’s people like me, who take about 10 to 15 minutes before they fly or a line there around the corner of breathing into a paper bag before they get up and do it. And then and then and then they go out. Did you hone this, this this ability to talk to a lineup to fly or to promote yourself? Or did it to did it? Was that learned? Is it or did it come naturally?
Keith Brown
A bit of both like I am extroverted? Well, I’m probably ambivert it because I do need my time to recharge like even coming back from Orlando fringe and like I want to do nothing for a few days. I don’t want to talk to anybody. I’m like, spend all my energy. But like I do feed off of people, like I love connecting with other people, as well as like when it’s people that you’ve met before. And you remember them and they remember you that building that sense of community. And like going back to water those seeds and those relationships, I think is important. I do feed off of that. But I’ve definitely learned how to flyer and how to talk to people because sometimes you might have 30 seconds, you might have less than that. How do you pitch your show? In one sentence? Because some people are like, Oh, well, like you know, like it’s there’s a brother and there’s a sister and then all this stuff happens and and blah, blah, blah. Okay, you told me what happened to your show. You didn’t tell me why I should come to your show. So for years, like one of the things that I say is I’m like look family friendly magic and storytelling. I was chosen Toronto’s Best magician, and I’m not even from Toronto. The further you get from Toronto, the funnier that becomes, especially if you’re not in Canada, like people think that’s hilarious. So like that, like one sentence each those can sell, sell the show, or it can be like, hey, like, find out about the trick that almost killed me, or find out about how, like, find out how the First Lady and President kicked in my show kind of thing. So you got to entice them enough, and then maybe they will talk to you more. But one thing that I did last year is my my eye was bearded my poster was not because I was like look, you remember the baby face. You haven’t met the beard yet? I’m going to have a baby face poster. But I’m going to walk around like this. And I was like, hey, so like, we got this magic show, blah, blah, blah. And then people were like, wait a second, is that you? And I’m like, Yes, this is me now. And that was me like before depression and a pandemic kind of thing. And then we’re just having a conversation. And then you know, I start asking you about, like, what shows you’ve seen and the shows that you’re enjoying. So sometimes it isn’t just about like, hey, come to my magic show. You’ll love it. It’s like hey, like, is this your first festival? What shows have you seen today? Oh, like this is the only day you have to go see stuff like, Oh, you’re looking for a comedy go see this show. So I do think even if you do have an affinity for it already, whether you’re a people person or you’re a strong communicator, there is definitely like the art to hand billing and the art of a pitch because people don’t like being handed garbage. And in fact, I’ve stopped hand billing. Like I don’t print handles anymore. I just talked to people and either use my poster. The Edmonton fringe during the pandemic said, Hey, no, no handbills, first because of COVID. And then the second year because of Save the trees. And I’ve really enjoyed that. Because I don’t have to spend a couple $100 printing business cards or postcards. I don’t have to spend time designing them. I would rather actually talk to you and hopefully make an impression that makes you want to come to my show. And just being like a good ambassador for the fringe because you’re here For a good Time, I might not be that answer. But do you want to know where a venue is? I can tell you, heck, I might even walk you there. But like, Oh, you’re looking for a one man storytelling show, check out these ones. Oh, you’re looking for a comedy, check out that. So like, I would much rather just facilitate a good time. Hopefully, that’s you coming to my show. But all that stuff. Like there’s all these little things that I learned overdoing it 1000s and 1000s of times, because as soon as, like, if you’re doing a five minute pitch, and then a line starts walking, you’re done. Shows going Oh, yeah. Like that is the end of the pitch. So people do ask me like, Hey, can you do magic for me? And I’m like, No, come to the show. Yeah, as if this line starts moving, and I’m halfway through a trick. It’s just gonna look crappy. And I would, I don’t want to put myself at that disadvantage. I’d rather just either make you laugh or make you smile, or give you a reason to come to my show, and hopefully, like whet your appetite to come more. But all those things were from learning from other people do it before me. Like there’s so many fringe errs that have given me like little bits of advice that you’re like, okay, cool. And they’re little things like, it could be like, Hey, don’t put your poster in the Porta Potty. So people don’t associate your show with taking a dump. Which is like, Oh, I never thought about that. But you’re like, but that’s a that’s a high visibility area. Right. Yeah. Or could just be something of I mean, I’m trying to think of another piece of advice, but Well, yeah, there’s like, there’s all these little tips and tricks, and part of it is by doing it, but also observing others to be like, oh, like, how do you pitch, one of the best things I ever saw in my life, Rob G. And I’m sorry, Rob, if I’m exposing your secret right now, Rob G has the self flyering lineup, he prints a piece of paper, he laminate it, he goes to the front line, he goes read this, hand it to the next person. And he sits there and he waits. And sure enough, all these people read the piece of paper that says Rob G is awesome. This is when the shows are this is how you get tickets cool. And they hand it to the next person and it goes all the way down the line. And he just waits to the enemy collects it. So that could be something for someone who, you know, is breathing in the bag. I’m stunned. I’m stunned, right, where there’s people who like walk around with a portable projector, anything that’s like aI attention, like grabs your attention and your focus. But also like you don’t want to disrupt people you don’t want just like shout at them and yell at them. So I just find like being like, Hey, my name is Keith, I want to tell you about, I’m going to shamelessly invite you to my magic show. Oh, how’s your friend is going and just talking to people has served me way more than then all these other little things.
Phil Rickaby
It’s so I mean, I’ve been to the I’ve been at the the end of like the unfortunate end of of a bad pitch, like I’ve been in line and bad pitch comes. And I don’t think people realise how detrimental a bad pitch is to your show. Like, it will make people not want to see your show. And it’ll too long pitch. There’s so many ways that you can shoot yourself in the foot. And I think that a lot of times, you could sort of I mean, you can always tell who are the fringe veterans by their pitch, right? Because if they really know their stuff, it’s a it’s a good, concise, quick pitch.
Keith Brown
At the same time, there are fringe vets who don’t like pitching. So they hire someone like John Bennett is infamous, like people like why should I come to your show? He’s like, maybe you shouldn’t, I don’t know. And like, he doesn’t care. And he’s like, I don’t want to talk to people. I just want to do my show. And I want to see my friends and have a good time. But like, I don’t want to do this. And there’s literally times where producers like take him Take him away. Because he’s, he’s he’s killing ticket sales right now. So yeah, I do think like, you will see the vets. And one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was from Jeff Laird, who’s a Vancouver based artist. And he more or less was like you need to convert the number of people you talk to into the ticket price. So let’s say the ticket price is $10. Well, if you talk to one person that could be $10 in your pocket, if you talk to 10, it could be $100 in your pocket. So that’s incentive for you to just talk to a few more people, because that’s the difference between you having like a Subway sandwich, or like a nice steak dinner tonight. Right? So some people are like, Hey, I’m done. I’m tired, but it’s like, hey, just talk to 10 more people that could be another $100 Maybe in your pocket. And then you just keep doing that and all of a sudden like that net gets wider and wider.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, when I did my show at the at the 2019 Toronto fringe, I was very fortunate that my stage manager, loved flyering and ended up being really good at it. And so I didn’t have to do it because he did it. And that is a rare occurrence for me because I usually when I travel, I don’t have a stage manager. So it all falls to me. But it was sort of like a wonderful thing to like, find somebody who really thrive diet and to be like, Oh, okay, you, you can do it. I’m happy with that.
Keith Brown
Some of the bigger fests, like you can hire people in Winnipeg and Edmonton to flyer for you, I used to have my stage manager flyer for me. But after the first couple years, I was like, hey, look, it doesn’t sound like this is your thing. I’m good at this, as well as like, if you if I were to get you to do this, I’d be paying you more money. So I’d rather just keep you as the amazing stage manager that you are shadowed Steph Taylor. Rather than make you do things you don’t want to do kind of thing because like, you can always delegate and find someone who is good at that.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Speaking of of talking to people, I’m curious about you know, a comedian will tell somebody, they’re a comedian, and they immediately go say something funny. When people find out you’re a magician, or they immediately do a magic trick. Is that is that the downside to being a magician?
Keith Brown
Yes. People ask me that all the time. They’re like, You’re a magician, dance, monkey dance. Yes, yes. When I was younger, I didn’t mind it as much. Because I was like, Oh, I get to practice I get to show you stuff. The one thing I’ve come to realise is that some people are asking to be nice. Some people don’t want to see you do magic, but they’re like, oh, you’re a magician. I’ve never met a magician before. And then you start performing. And then you kind of notice this awkward tension, and you’re wasting everybody’s time. So one thing I started doing, and mostly in, like, you know, social settings, I’d be like, hey, like, I just got to the party. Or wherever I am. I’m like, I really want to thank our host. But if you come find me in like 20 minutes, I will show you some. And more or less, I have put the onus on them. Because if you really want to see it, you will find me You will seek me out. And you will ask for magic. And now I know. Like you’re, I’m more or less asking you to qualify yourself as someone who’s interested in Magic by seeking me out and putting in just a little bit of extra work. Whereas if you don’t, you’re not going to come find me. And I can enjoy the party, I can do whatever it is that I want. But if like you are interested, who am I to rob you of that moment, or the one thing that I have been doing a lot recently is I just tell people, like we just have a conversation like we are now where am I actually I just got back from Orlando, you know, like, I got to do all these shows in the back of a gay bar. It’s like the fourth time that I’ve been there, and the next series that I’m doing so and then based off of the conversation, people are like, oh, like, you seem legit. Like you seem good. Rather than just like some guy in the street who knows a trick like my uncle, right? And then it’s kind of like, oh, like what? Yeah, like, follow me. Like, why don’t you check out my socials kind of thing? And like, Yeah, well, I wanted to find me like later after dinner or something, kind of thing. So I would rather qualify people to find like real magic fans, rather than waste both of our time, which has definitely happened a lot. But people tend to notice from our conversation, that they’re like, Oh, you seem serious about this, you seem like you’ve been doing it a long time, you seem you seem good. And that’s kind of like enough for them. But it is really nice when you do get to share, like a magic moment with someone who didn’t expect it. Because one, you never know who that person is, and what they could do for you or what you could do for them. And that has been like, that’s literally all of my stories, as I just happen to show magic to somebody. And then they’re like, oh my god, you want to perform like a Stanley Cup party. And I’m like, what? Sure. So like, things like that, like you have no idea who that person is, what they’re going through what they could do for you, or even what you could do for them. So like, who am I to rob people of that scenario? Part of it is is mostly like, what’s the context? Like, am I going somewhere? Am I busy? Am I running late? Because when like when I was younger people would ask me at the cafeteria at lunch, people would ask me like, on the way to class, and I’m like, like, we’re literally walking into class like, we were going to be late. People would ask me and I’d be like, how did you get in my bathroom? Yeah. So I do welcome it because it comes from a place of curiosity, but I can see how a lot of people would get annoyed because it’s like, Oh, I gotta tell a joke. Now I gotta do my thing. But I rather just like have a conversation with you and be like, Oh, have you ever met a magician before like, was the last magic show you saw? And we’re just talking about it, rather than, like, Oh, I gotta I gotta flush out the moves and dance for you. But it is a it is a good party skill. Like, don’t get me wrong, like, it’s not like you can well, maybe you can just go to a party like the play that I’ve been writing and start reading it. But a magic, like a magic trick at a party tends to go over a lot better. So it’s definitely a way you meet people.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, for sure. Now, having just got back from the Orlando fringe, I would be remiss without mentioning that you won the credit Critics Choice Award for Best magic show at the Orlando fringe. And so congratulations on that. Thank you that Orlando, some fringes are really big on on having awards and others are not is Orlando, like really big on the awards? Or like, what is that?
Keith Brown
Orlando did have a lot of awards, like the award show was like almost two hours, but they had, they had awards that were like chosen by a committee of staff members for shows. They also had some chosen by their gay publication, the watermarks, so that was specifically highlighting like in queer shows, which I think is awesome. Then they also had some reviewers. So like, I got reviewed by one of the newspapers, the other person who works for the other newspaper, he was just on a committee, they saw like 60 Plus shows, and they’re like, Okay, so like best magic show, Best Drama, best dance show this and that kind of thing. They also had awards for texts, and volunteers and things like that. So they definitely did have a lot of awards. Compared to other places, like Winnipeg, the Jenny awards are chosen by round of applause. So it’s literally like, and that’s also if they also weird category. So it’s not like best magic show. It’s like, hey, titles that were written in all caps. The one time I did when a Jenny was there was like seven magicians in the shows to the right, we have a magic category. And I was like, there’s never a magic category. I just happen to have a lot of friends in the room. So now normally what I tell anybody this No, I would slap known on a poster in between some laurels and get butts in seats, because it looks good. But Orlando did have a lot of awards. Some are more prestigious than others, depending on what you won, but honestly, it was just really nice to be recognised. And to have a magic category in the first place. Because typically, there are not best magic show categories or awards in the first place. So that was really nice, as well as Orlando was the first city I ever went to. And I remember, like being I went there three years in a row, and I was very green at the time. And I remember being in the beach, and like, oh my god, I would love to win something. But I never expected that it would take nine years to do that. So like it was a really nice moment. And it was really nice to have a lot of my friends cheering in the beer tent, and like come up and give me hugs and stuff. But yeah, like, it’s it’s nice to be recognised for the years of work that went into that. So to an art and to the artists that is watching this. Awards are bullshit, they’re a great way to market your show and put butts in seats in the next place. But it does feel really good and validating when you do win them. So take them with a grain of salt, don’t beat yourself up about it and compare yourself to another artist who may or may not have won, just keep doing what you’re doing. And the other thing is like, I remember I won an award in my hometown, and then like I never won anything again. And the producer was like, Oh, you don’t need to win anything here. Ever again, like we, we gave you we gave you the nod. You can take this to other cities, we need to do this for everybody else who needs it. Like you already got the pat on the back. So like you could win something every year Sure, maybe, but we’d rather give it to someone who does need it. Or who has been working hard. So, like awards are great. But they can also be just a whole bunch of bullshit. So like don’t don’t associate your value and your artistic merit with them whether you do or you don’t win them. Like it is really nice to get a great review and an award but like use that as the marking of material that it is and just keep doing what you’re doing which should be awesome work.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, no, that’s that’s absolutely true and awards. You’re right. You put them on your poster, you you pull the quote from the review. You do that stuff. It’s all about like keeping performing and getting people to come see the show. And that’s really what the tool is for. Now, with a few minutes left, I want to talk about it last year, you did last you did a close up magic show at the Al Green Theatre, which is notorious for two things. Number one, it’s massive. Yeah. And number two, it is well known for having this strange, wide expanse between the edge of the stage and the audience. How did you deal with that? I noticed that you’re back at the Al Green this year. With with a another show? How do you deal with that gulf between the stage and the audience? In this cavernous massive theatre,
Keith Brown
it’s so funny to me that everyone brings up like the moat in front of the audience like this giant empty space. And I’ve had like I had a friend drop out of the Toronto fringe, because they were like, what happened on the chairs? And there’s a bunch of other stuff. And they’re like, look, we’d rather not do this. But like, that is a lot of a box office. Rumour has it. The moat will not be there this year. Now, that was told to me by someone who heard it from someone, is that true? I won’t know until tech time. But last year, what I did to solve that problem is with this table show is like I’m sitting at a table, there’s a front facing camera more or less where this one is, there’s also an overhead. And I have like a switcher that I’m operating. And someone needs to be close enough for me to shuffle the deck of cards. So I more or less put the table on the ground, rather than on the race stage. And then we brought chairs from the front row closer, and I made a little audience. So there’s a couple people on my right, a couple of people on my left a few in front of me. And then it gradually became the rage CD. So that was my first solution. I purposely chose the Al Green, because this year I wanted to perform in the moat again, I was like gonna be like screw the stage, I’m doing it here. Even if it’s just like a general wash and the lighting isn’t as good. I just want to be able to walk up to you. And have you participate as well as accessibility. Like you can’t, I don’t think you can get a wheelchair up on that stage kind of thing. Whereas in this case, like I love that the Toronto fringes is completely accessible, including our bathrooms, were the first time that my cousin actually got to see me perform in a big theatre because of that. But it’s not like I can invite him up on that rate stage. So I’m waiting to find out whether or not the chairs will be there. But if they aren’t, I fully intend on standing in front of the stage performing in the vote and making that space my own. Because we have the power, we have the power to adapt. Also that stages, huge. And I will feel like a little ant on that space.
Phil Rickaby
It is huge. It’s almost too huge for the average fringe show. I think dance shows work really well there. But a lot of times, like a show with like two people is not going to doesn’t fill that space really well.
Keith Brown
That is one of the hard parts is like how do you fill that space, especially when it’s a cavern that is designed like the show that I saw that wasn’t at Fringe was like a musical. So it was packed with with all of these students doing a show. And they did have the full seating kind of thing. So part of it is like how do you fill this space and make it adapt. But another thing to consider is like that duo might might be selling the Al Green. So it’s like, hey, we might have had a better theatre or space or stage for us. But the audience was smaller. So there’s always these little considerations. But I really enjoyed performing at the algorithm last year, and wanted to do it again. It is right on the subway line Spadina and Blore. So it’s easy to get to it’s really close to the transact. Whereas there are some venues that you’re like, yeah, yeah, go down this alley, and then like, go up these escalators and you’ll find it. So like, I wanted to make it as easy as possible. And just like perform there again. So I definitely requested that this year.
Phil Rickaby
Awesome. Awesome. Well, Keith Brown, thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on the podcast.
Keith Brown
My pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity for all the work that you do for the theatre community in Toronto and elsewhere. I think it’s great that you’re doing what you’re doing. I hope people keep supporting you. Before we go. Yes, we’ve been talking about magic. Yes, we haven’t done any magic.
Phil Rickaby
No, we haven’t. And I didn’t want to put that kind of pressure on you for for when this is just an this is an interview. What would you like to do? So? The answer is always yes.
Keith Brown
That’s a good answer. Well, I knew We were gonna have this interview. And I thought to myself, if we were to do a magic trick, what would that look like? What would happen? Like most card tricks involve you picking a card, which is a little hard through a screen. Yeah. But this morning when I woke up, I had one card in mind. And I picked up the nearest deck of cards to me, it happened to be this one. And I found that card, I took it out. I spun it around, and I stuck it back in. So right now there are 51 cards that are face up. There is only one card that is facedown, and I’m the only person who knows what it is. But I will you to be successful. And if you were to imagine one card facing the wrong way, it could either be a red card or a black card. When you imagine it, do you imagine it being a red card or a black card? It’s a black card. It’s a black card for you okay? Is it a club or a spade? It is a club? It’s a club, okay? And they would have all the values like Ace 234-567-8910, Jack, Queen, King, what? What club? Is it? Seven? Is a seven of clubs. Okay? Yes. Now, I’ll be honest with you. Most times when you ask someone to like name a card directly. The first answer that like most commonly chosen is the ace of spades. The second is the queen of hearts. But if you just ask someone to say a number, most people say seven. Now, knowing this piece of information, would you like to change your mind? Or would you like to stay with the seven because you’re gonna go home and ask yourself, well, like, what if I chose another one? Or maybe he’s just messing with my mind right now. I don’t know. It’s really up to you.
Phil Rickaby
I’m gonna stick with the seven. You’re gonna Same with the seven of I am willing to be common.
Keith Brown
I love it. All here. Let’s find out. Because out of all of the playing cards, I told you, they’re all facing the same way. Except for one right down there in the middle. And it is a black card. It is a club. And it is your seven
Phil Rickaby
of clubs. Nice. Nice. Thank you so much. Keep that’s awesome that you’re most welcome.
Keith Brown
I appreciate you having me on.
Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcast, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings help new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy end my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod. And you can find the website with the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at PhilRickaby. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy