#365 – Sam Chaulk

Sam Chaulk is an actor, singer, playwright, improviser, dramaturg, creator and clown originally from Mount Pearl, Newfoundland. She’s been working in theatre and comedy across eastern Canada since 2009, and got her Masters in Performance Creation for Theatre from York University in 2021. During her time at York, she took to bouffon clowning to satisfy her desire to play inside the dark, uncomfortable and undesirable parts of humanity. Thanks to Canada Council for the Arts, she studied the form with Philippe Gaulier. She’s using what she learned there to build and perform her new show, Influenced, which will play at The One Night Only Festival on June 9th and at the Montreal and Winnipeg Fringes.

www.samchaulk.com
Instagram: @sammchaulk

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Transcript

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Phil Rickaby
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I’m Phil Rickaby and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years, but I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble.

Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.

Sam Chaulk is a theatre artist and comedian from Toronto. She’s currently rehearsing her new show influence which will have its world premiere at the one that only Festival on June 9, before hitting the Montreal and Winnipeg Fringe Festivals. In this conversation, we talk about how her so influenced grew into boufal. From something initially more traditional, how a fascination with the way algorithms drive questionable content to viewers led to the creation of her show her theatre origin story, and more. Here’s our conversation.

We should probably talk about to influenced,

Sam Chaulk
yes.

Phil Rickaby
Tell me tell me about this show of yours?

Sam Chaulk
Yes. So influenced is my first full length boufal show. I’ve been working on it since 2019, if you can believe it been through a lot of different iterations. And right now it is a rabbit hole cabaret of theatrical interactive content that is targeted at you. So I’m making fun of influencers, experts, conspiracy theorists, algorithms, you name it, everything from the internet, I’m taking down as well as my audience members and their internet behaviours and beliefs, et cetera, et cetera. So nothing internet is safe in influence, it’s going to be very fun.

Phil Rickaby
So, I mean, was was this was the show inspired by like, experiences on tick tock on things like that, or was it that you started working at in 2019? I feel like, at least for old people like me, tick tock exploded in 2020. But yeah, you know,

Sam Chaulk
so it’s more tick tock now. Just says like, I was like, when the Tick Tock float in 2020 is that when it was

Phil Rickaby
I feel like it it’s sort of like it sort of I mean, among millennials started getting on tick tock in 2005, millennials and Gen X and everybody else we started getting on the Gen Z was on before that, right? Yeah, they may say that we all ruined Tiktok for them, but yes, for it exploded in popularity, like in the mainstream and 2020 a thing with the pandemic

Sam Chaulk
So I started working on the show, actually at York University. So I was doing my masters and performance creation for theatre at the time. And just before I started that programme, I had had an experience on YouTube. That was the major inspiration for this. Basically, like, I was on YouTube all the time, I was watching craters like, like Contra points. For example, if you’re, if you’re a fan of or no contra points, she’s this amazing woman who does, who at the time was doing a lot of kind of like de radicalising of the alt right kind of content and kind of getting into all these like guys on Reddit, and like the Insell movement, and talking about all that stuff. But as it happens, when you’re, you know, going down the YouTube rabbit holes, I got recommended some really scary stuff. That was also like, like, unexplainably intriguing to me, like it was like, like, all right, content was getting recommended to me. But it was like kind of the, the entryway stuff. So it wasn’t like the full blown, you know, the great replacement theory, which is like, you know, that white people are being replaced. thing. It was like, the light stuff, where it’s like, it’s this guy, Dave Rubin, this is how they started getting to me was like the guy Dave Rubin, who sort of first thing he does is show you his, his wedding ring and says, like, I’m married to a man, you know, I’m a liberal. You know, I’m a card carrying liberal or he should be, but I believe that everybody should be able to speak freely about their ideas, et cetera, et cetera. So basically, he says this, but then every guest that he has on his show is like, all right, or right, like very close to that, you know what I mean? So like, I remember, kind of on ironically, and like uncritically starting to watch some of this stuff. And like, hearing the things that people were saying, and kind of like, like, I wasn’t being radicalised by any means, but I can’t, I was just like, you know, some of this stuff is okay, you know, like, I remember having this experience. And this was a time when I was a bit low, like, personally in life. So, I was just watching a lot of YouTube. And like, I, I quickly realised what was happening and kind of got out of it, but it gave me this feeling of like, oh, man, this is not hard to do. You know, like, it’s not hard to get onto these, like, get into these rabbit holes. And, and, like, people really make a big effort to try to convert anyone of any political leaning, you know what I mean? And I started out, kind of have, I guess, a little bit more empathy for the people who are going that way. And there were a lot of people going that way, at the time. And now we’re in a different place, for sure. But this was like pre COVID, obviously, and I think that a lot of people who are sort of like getting into this stuff, like you remember, I don’t like I don’t know, if you had like family members who would kind of start to spout this stuff and, and like light versions of this stuff. And, like, you just see it all around you. And I could kind of see it all around me.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah.

Sam Chaulk
But that’s like the that’s like, my sort of orange origin story for how I started work on this. So when I first started working on it, it was all sort of like, I was just doing so much research into all of these different people doing this stuff. And then I it started to become clear that like, a lot of the common sort of, like, the structure of the rhetoric was really similar to like ads that I would get for like shapewear. Or like, or even arguments from like the left like it was like this. I saw this kind of common structural thing emerging from sort of everything that that has just kind of been marinating in, in this area of the internet. And I was like, this string is the one I want to expose are looking really directly. So I started doing like performance experiments because we were doing them almost like twice a week in this programme, which is awesome. Anybody wants to make a solo show, look into that programme, like it was really incredible, honestly, even though most of it happened during the pandemic for me. But yeah, I was doing all these products experiments, like using that verbatim material, some really bad stuff, some less bad stuff. And then the people, my cohort and my teachers were like, we’re like, you know, boufal sam boufal. Like, a lot of what you’re doing here is is really confronting and uncomfortable. But you are also this really accomplished improviser and comedian boufal. You know, think about

Phil Rickaby
had you been exposed to Buffon before that.

Sam Chaulk
Um, no, I was not at all. No, that was my first. Like, I that’s how I heard about it. And people were pointing me to like, Adam, Lazarus, his daughter. Like people were just saying, daughter, daughter, daughter, like, everything really would do. You know what I mean? Yeah. Which I have never seen, but I actually got to see his work in progress versus recently, which is super, super exciting. But yeah, so so they pointed me in that direction. And then I, you know, wrote some essays on and I was looking at Red bastard, and poxy. And Sacha Baron Cohen, also learning about it. But I never really got the chance to actually study it while I was doing my thesis. So, afterwards, I did. But like the show that I ended up creating for my thesis ended up because it was happening during the pandemic, it ended up being this wildly weird, conceptual, like, very complex thing that I that I got on. But I got my friend to sail on, like, we went to the theatre at York. And it’s so complicated, like, it has boxes and ribbons and blood. And like, it’s crazy. How, how complicated this, but this version now is, like, so, so pulled back. And my hope is that it kind of contains all of that work that I did, but it’s just very, very simple.

Phil Rickaby
Was it at the time? Was it so complicated? Because you were trying to fill video time and you didn’t have like, audience connection?

Sam Chaulk
Do you feel? Yes, it was, because I had to build things into the show. That like I had this little box friend basically, like I had all these Amazon boxes. And one of them was just like, my, my buddy, that I fell in love with. That was called me and he was like an Amazon box. And all the things that I really wanted to be doing to the audience, I kind of started doing to him. So I had this like stand in object to kind of because it was always meant to be interactive, like when I started making it. And then it was just not possible to do that. Even over zoom. When I tried to make it interactive over zoom, it was always just like, total flop fail, you know? So it’s like I had to build these things in because it was lacking that audience interactive piece.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Zoom is not great for performance, and there hasn’t been a good live streaming thing. That’s good for performance. Zoom just isn’t it?

Sam Chaulk
Well, it’s like, like, especially, like, especially with clown, right? Because it’s about exchanging energy between people. It’s about like, like, there’s a look that you can give someone in real life. That will not translate even if you’re looking directly into a camera. Yeah. Because you’re seeing them, you’re seeing where they’re at. And you’re responding in real time to like, exactly. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the vibe work. Like just cannot be there. You know?

Phil Rickaby
I mean, that’s why, like, you know, in a lot of ways, like, you know, the Zoom theatre and things like that, that we had during the pandemic, is a completely different animal from like, light or later because we just don’t have a way to connect with the audience. And what is theatre? If not having a connection with your audience?

Sam Chaulk
100% and I like I was, I remember during that time, like, I was, so I was so mad, you know, this, I would just constantly be saying, like, this isn’t theatre, like, we all need to accept that this isn’t theatre. Stop trying to pretend that it is because it’s not. Yeah. You know, and never, you know, but then there’s, like, you know, everybody trying to be optimistic and like, I get that too, of course, but I just be like, No, you don’t, I mean, just also being like an interrupter myself. Like, that’s like not, that’s not possible for me. You know,

Phil Rickaby
did you did you start were you Oh, when you started at your, was it already pandemic times? Was it like automatically like video on? Or did you have some in person time before before that happened?

Sam Chaulk
So I had the fall term. And the Fall term was what I referenced there where everybody was like fallen daughter, like, look into that. And, yeah, I had the full term, and then it was, I had like a month of classes basically, before everything shut down. Yeah. And then the rest of it was completely online. So it was a bit, it was a bit, right. It was like a blessing and a curse in a way. Because I also got to spend so much time inside the world of my show, and I read, it became my coping mechanism. Like, all I thought about was this, like, all day, every day, I would wake up in the morning, and I would I would go to bed with in my head at night. And I would walk around hyper can come up with things. And you know what I mean, which I think is also why it was so like, it was it was so complicated, and all over the place is because I just had come up with so much stuff, you know, and you were

Phil Rickaby
throwing everything at it. I mean, if you’re thinking about all that, and you know, what else do you have to do during the pandemic? But to think about this one thing? Exactly, of course, you’re going to be throwing everything in it.

Sam Chaulk
Yeah. And then I thought, and like at the time, I thought that all of that would be what made it good. Like all of that attention. And all of that, like constant time to it would be what make it made a good, right. But it was not true. Like taking away. Like I really now have the tip of an iceberg process, right with this show. And the rest of it is underwater. And that is like perfectly fine. Like we were thinking about incorporating some, like I had some stuff with like ribbons flying out of my mouth and like gradually, like pulling them out and eating marshmallows, and blah, blah, like all this stuff. We really were just like, we were gonna work it in. But we said let’s cut it. Let’s just, I’m gonna focus, especially considering this as my first full length clown show. I’m just going to focus on being with the people in the base. And then I’m going to build a playground, I’m going to build a structure. It definitely has quite a bit of tax. Like it’s definitely kind of hybrids. That’s not totally, you know, just me kind of playing games. Like with a bit of structure. It’s like, there’s tax, there’s a bit. So it kind of hybrid, a play and a clown show. But yeah, so I’m going to build this structure, and I’m going to play on it. And I’m going to focus on my sensitivity with the audience and responding to them, honestly, in the space and get really good. That’s so

Phil Rickaby
important, though that’s like, like, what is clown? If not, like just you in the audience. Right?

Sam Chaulk
Exactly. And like I’ve been studying clown for years, and years and years and years. Like, I started when my BFA actually I did Chinko clouding with Luis, co TA, my original cloud mama. There. And then I was doing courses here and there. And that was in 2000. And now, yeah, nine oh, boy, it was a long time. And I’ve been doing it in different with different teachers and stuff since then. But I never really perform very much in clown. And so now that’s for the past two years or so. I guess. That’s what I’m focusing on is like taking all that studying that I did, and actually putting the, you know, rubber to the road on it.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, I mean, Cologne is a lot of people do like they do clown in school, or they take clown and it’s another thing entirely to be like, I could create a show around this because clown is, frankly terrifying.

Sam Chaulk
Oh boy. Is it ever gonna Yeah, it is terrifying. But you know what? I actually find improv. I’ve done a lot of improv and I find it more terrifying. Somehow really? Yeah. Yeah, I think because I feel like I have to be smart. Now know I had this like pressure to be like a witty. But like all the best improv work that I ever did was all like character based emotional stuff. But then I would be in groups and that wouldn’t quite fit with what people were doing and like it kind of became clear to me as I was doing improv that I was like, a bit of a different bird there. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so it was like, I think I’ve always kind I’d have been pointed towards the clown work in all of my explorations of different ways of being a performer, but it’s

Phil Rickaby
kind of like, you know, if you look at old Second City stuff you look at, say SCTV, for example, and you had two kinds of two kinds of performers. They’re good a lot of people were very, you know, funny with their mouth. Like they said funny things, or the character was was funny. And then you had other people who were so physically funny if you compare like, Eugene Levy to a Martin Short, we’re both very hilarious people. But one is, you know, yes, he’s, he’s funny with speaking but he’s also incredibly, physically hilarious. Whereas Eugene Levy, for example, tends to be more sneaky, funny.

Sam Chaulk
Yeah. Yeah. Totally. There’s, there’s different ways of being, and I think I’m like, I definitely think I’m, like I said, like, a hybrid, because I’m definitely, you know, the, the text in the show was definitely like, turns of phrase and clever little things. And you know what I mean? Like, yeah, and actually my director, Suzanne, Robert Smith, excellent, excellent clown, performer, teacher, who’s Francine cote is her big teacher and inspiration. She like, when she’s, when I we did a mock up probably two weeks ago, just kind of throwing everything down at once to just see what the beast was looking like, even though it’s like very, it was very, not super finished. And she was like, wow, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re so smart. You know, the fact that like, there’s all this, there’s all this text, it’s like, how can we? How can we essentially use all this stuff? So that you can play actually, like, though she’s really getting me? She really training me in that direction, I suppose. To make sure that I’m not I’m not like, oh, no, this thing doesn’t come after this thing. And bla bla bla bla bla, like, she, she’s really focused on making sure that I have the tools to have the freedom that I need to just kind of like toss stuff by Anita toss stuff and dig into things that I need to dig into, depending on who the audience is. Right?

Phil Rickaby
Hmm, yeah. I mean, this has been quite a journey with this with this show influenced, is there something that you can pick out that’s like, this is the number one thing that I’ve learned and working on this show? Oh, boy.

Sam Chaulk
Think about that for a second. Oh, keep it simple, stupid. Hmm, honestly. Because it’s like, all the time, and all the energy that I put, like, I like, I really learned how to do a process for myself, like, I experimented with all the different ways of giving what I was creating all that richness. But when I was doing that, it’s like, I thought that that was gonna be the show. And it just so isn’t, you know, like, cuz I’m, like, you know, going in and moving, and then, you know, getting all like, worked up or whatever, and then sitting down with my notebook, and like drawing pictures, and, you know, having little visions or whatever, and, like, you know, what I like doing all of that process stuff, which is important, and so good. Yeah. But I think it’s like, I expected that the things that came from that part of the process would be what the show was. But really, it was just, like building blocks, or, or it’s like, how do you on earth, this thing that’s inside you? And like, how do you grow? Like, how do you grow the roots of this plant and maybe your plants? It’s just like, one little stock or whatever, you know, what any, like, yeah, and letting what shows be really simple.

Phil Rickaby
Was there a moment in your process where you realised that the show was not all of these things that you did in the in the video version?

Sam Chaulk
of um, yes. Well, I mean, I think when I went back to restructure it and like to pull pieces, because I had because even though the video version, there was all these pieces that I had tossed from when I was originally working on in 2019. And interestingly, a lot of those have come back. So I think when I was restructuring it, I was like, no, this doesn’t make it. This is too much. Especially considering I really have my premise straight, which is like it’s a, it’s a cabaret, hosted by an AI MC with one boufal performer who does bastards or characters, right? And songs and comedy bits and games and whatnot. So like in that structure, that premise that I’ve given myself, like, how am I going to do? Like, like, at first, I was trying to squeeze all that stuff in being like, How could that be? Like a cabaret act or whatever? And I was like, No, it just needs to be that their cabaret acts, you know? Like, that’s it. And they need to have one simple thing that I’m doing. And then that’s it. And I’m excited to do it now. Like before, like, I remember, the feeling of rehearsing for that video version was like, was like absolute. And it’s probably also because I just had nobody around me, you know what I mean? Like, we have like three people. Now for because it was me, Kate MacArthur, who is my partner in crime in theatre, enthused, and my company. And we work together a lot. And she worked together with me on the video version. And also, now on this, she’s the voice of algo, the AI MC. Like lockbar trends.

Phil Rickaby
As a right, that’s right, rather than you’re talking about about Kate MacArthur, and yeah, and people who are working with you

Sam Chaulk
all, because we only have so many people in the space. That’s right. Yeah. Right. It felt terrifying. Yes. And it felt like absolute looming. Pain, you know, because it was like, so much to do. And there was just no pleasure in it whatsoever. Right? Like, it was just okay, I have to, like, do all this stuff that I make, right? And oh, my god, how am I going to make that happen, and I have to do it with nobody around and I have to do it in cheap, you know. And now, even though it’s kind of like it coming together, I’ve actually been working on it all day today. I’m pretty late brain a little bit scrambled from it. But like now, even though it was it’s, you know, it’s, it’s all there. It’s like coming together. But when I look at what I have to do now, I’m just like, that’s gonna be a blast. You know, like, I’m excited to do each of these bids in the show, because they all just seem like, so much fun to me, which I think is like, Ah, I’m getting it right. Now I’m getting rains, you know? Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
What’s the relationship between like, the idea of the algorithm, the algorithm rules all of us on the on the internet now? Whether it’s tick tock reals, whether it’s Twitter or Facebook, or any of that stuff? What’s the relationship between the algorithm and the relationship between you and algo? And and the audience?

Sam Chaulk
Right, yeah. So I think one of the main things that I that I really think about the way that people talk about social media, I feel like we frame it as if, like, we are these helpless victims of our algorithms, often, like, it’s kind of like, right, you know what I mean? It’s like, Oh, my God, my algorithm is doing this to me, like, my algorithm is doing that, to me, bla bla, bla, bla, bla. But in the show, I decided to kind of put a bit of a spotlight on the fact that it’s us abusing the technology, and not necessarily the other way around. Or at least I’m experimenting with that idea. You know, like she calls Premack made a song called algorithm, a number of unsavoury names, felt throughout the show. And like, it’s a collaboration, you know, like, it’s not just, this is happening to me, it’s like, well, you’re choosing to have this happen to you, you know what I mean? Like, you could be choosing something else. Yeah. But you, you, you know, that most people I think, at this point, like know how insidious the algorithms are, you know, how it looks at your face and can tell by the way that your eyes moved that you like the content or at least it is interesting to you, whether it be disgust, hatred, whatever, you know what I mean. Yeah, and then gives you more of that right. So I like a lot of what we’re looking at in the show too, is like how, like that kind of, like morbid curiosity and not morbid curiosity, but it’s almost like you don’t even know what’s happening to you. You know, like, you, you pay attention to something that you don’t like. And then you just keep getting more of it like one time. Like I’m a nanny by day, three days a week, actually, all of us working on my show or are caregivers working on like most adult show possible. There’s even a baby in rehearsal. Suzanne’s little baby julu, which was like, so lovely and so fun to kind of like, look at him as one of my audience members. So it’s hilarious. He’s like three months old. But what was I saying? Oh, dear, I keep losing my Oh, yeah. Yeah, yes. So I was on Tik Tok a bunch. And I kept getting stuff about parenting. Even though I don’t have any children. Right. And for a while, I was looking at it a lot. Right. And then I and then, without making the connection, I was getting very, like paranoid about how good of a job I was doing as a nanny. Like, like it got in my head. And yeah. And like, I know about this, you know what I mean? Like I have done an entire two years at university researching this stuff. Yeah. But I didn’t make the connection until I was on the phone with a friend of mine. And she was like, I don’t know maybe like because I had told her about both of these things. And then she was like, well, maybe that’s why you’re feeling so in your head about your nannying is because you’re getting all this stuff on Tik Tok. And I was like, oh, it’s feeling really gross and dark, too. But that’s the way tic tock is. And that’s the way we’re structuring the show, too, is it’s like, it gets you with like, funny. Fun stuff. Loving. Awesome. It’s great. And then oh, this is a little bit gross. Oh, it’s fun again. Great. Yeah. Awesome. Oh, this is Whoa, this is really gross. Oh, my, oh my God, and then you’re on some gross stuff, where you’re like, Ah, okay. And then you get a little bit up again, and then it just, you know, then you’re, you’re down the rabbit hole. So I’ve like structured the show to be that way. So it likes yay. And it’s also perfect. Because that’s, you know, how we imagine boufal shows to be, where do falls to kind of work with audiences is like, you have the charm, you have the beauty, right? And you come out with that, so that you can stay on stage. Right? You don’t want them to take you off right away for being so ugly and horrible. And then once you’ve got them, then you block them, you know. So it just works out perfectly in that

Phil Rickaby
the algorithm is funny in that way that like, you know, whatever you give attention to gives you more even if you’re Hey, watching it, it doesn’t care if you’re Hey, watching and you gave it attention. And so, like there are times when I’ll be like, Why am I getting so angry? So, so anxious while I’m looking at this thing. And I start to realise Oh, all the funny stuff is gone. Exactly. And I’m just getting like all the stuff that it knows enrages me. So I have to do like a reset, where it’s just like very mindful of what I’m giving my attention to get by everything else. And it’s so but it gets you if you if you’re not conscious of it, like you said, it pulls you in to give you more and more and more. And suddenly, you’re in this angry funnel that just keeps you spiralling into more and more anger. Yep. And feeling terrible about the world.

Sam Chaulk
Yep. And it felt to be hard to recognise what’s happening to you all. It’s happening to you, right? Yeah. Like, even you can be the most educated person about it in the world, but you’re going to like it’s it knows. And it has ways around. You know, wild? Yeah. And yeah, Tiktok is the worst one to play the worst. But I also love Tik Tok the most now. Rangely like, I used to be a big YouTube person. I was a big YouTube person for a long time. And now I’ve liked Well, I have my phases with tick tock, like, I’m sure No, I’m a bit since that thing with the getting in my head about childcare thing. I was like, I also started using the button, the one like, I don’t like this or whatever. There’s like a little thing you can press that, like, please don’t show me more of this kind of this. So I’ve started actually using that. But then sometimes I also like hack it to try to do research, you know, oh my god, like, I’ll stay longer on something that I don’t really want just because I want to see, you know what I mean?

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, Yeah, I appreciate that social media platforms let you click on a thing, and it’ll tell you why it’s showing you this. Do you be like, Oh, I see this and you think, you know, like, I like the transparency when they when when you can do that and be like, Oh, I understand why you’re showing me this and I can change it.

Sam Chaulk
Yeah, totally. Yeah, like that, like, you can look on Facebook to see your, like your little I forget what that’s called. But basically the list of words that describe you, or whatever, yes, yeah, yeah, we also have an act in the show that like, I’m, I’m a psychic to psychic act, and I get the audience to give me their phone open on an app that they use the most. And then I give them a psychic reading based on what I see. Which is very, very fun. And also very, you know, it’s like, Yep, this is how much and it’s usually like, the experiments I’ve done with it, if I can get really on point, right, yeah. Because it knows so much about you. It’s like doing all the work for a psychic, you know. So I feel like that’s gonna be like a sobering experience for some people in terms of, and then also, it’s like, like, something we’re working with an idea we’re working with in the show is, you know, there are things that you allow your phone to do to you that you would never let somebody do do in real life? No, no, you know, like, you would never let somebody like, like, even he would never, you know, many people would not let someone see their browser history, right, like, and there’s things, that there’s things that are done to you, but also things that you would never share with a real human person. But you share with your algorithm all of the time. It’s like, so it’s like, Why? Why are we so Okay, with giving so much information to these, like, massive, massive corporations, but then we’re so sort of, like, isolated in our relationships to each other. And also, we’re so you know, we’re not very quick to forgive people in life, you know. But for some reason, we just like, let the abuse keep happening. So it’s kind of that thing, it’s like, who are you? Like, who are you in the scenario? Like the abuser or the abused? Like, you’re both? Yeah. You know?

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times, I think, because, you know, the corporation and the algorithm are faceless, literally faceless. Yeah. We don’t, you know, it’s like, I don’t know, this person. I don’t know, this thing is not, it’s not not a physical thing. Somehow, I’m okay with giving it like, a whole lot of the keys to all of my secrets, subconscious, like, hates and desires and wants and loves and all this sort of stuff. But if I could see if I know who this person is, I’m not telling them any of that stuff. You know, it’s a weird thing.

Sam Chaulk
No, it’s a weird thing. And it makes me like, there’s something that that smacks of the idea that, that we value, the tech over humanity. You know, what I mean? Like, over being human in spaces with each other, and like, showing each other grace? And, you know, obviously, we don’t want to be so vulnerable with everybody. But like, you know what I mean, like, it feels it feels weird to me. And that part of what this is to is like, it’s like we’re sort of pushing down. What makes us human for the sake of this tech? Yeah. And we’re using this tech to make us less human somehow. Because we’ve always been running away from being human. Right. And that isn’t what Buffon is, is about, right? It’s like, Oh, yeah. You think you’re, you think you’re like aristocracy think you’re so good. Right? You know, watch me have sex on stage and spit at you while I do you know what I mean? That’s a little like, like, watch that and, like, are you happy with that? Like, do you like the fact this is what you look like when you have sex? You know, like, it? It’s like, I couldn’t be more blessed with a with a forum that addresses this content in a better way. Hmm. You know?

Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. Absolutely. It’s funny the that that algorithms thing, I think it comes down to the algorithm never judges us. And we’re always afraid that other people you know, the algorithm will just give you what you want when you want and it doesn’t care. Yeah. And dying

Sam Chaulk
grace from the algorithm. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
That’s true. Give me that rug anymore. That’s true. I just gotta keep serving you that but if you’re an

Sam Chaulk
asshole, actually, I’m gonna let you judge me That is okay. So you start I’m getting the sense that maybe you start to feel like an asshole now, actually, I’m going to give you somebody who is an unlikely person to be saying that actually, you’re not an asshole for thinking this. So then like, you get reinforced then on the thing, right? You know what I mean? Like, you know, think what you will South Park. But like for a while there, it was feeding me a lot of black people who were talking about how South Park isn’t. doesn’t use, like the stereotype use on South Park isn’t a problem. And I was like, and like, I don’t know, like, I don’t know what to think of it because I’ve loved it for so long. That it’s like, it’s like, that’s a hard one for me to let go personally, but like, the fact that like, I just noticed that tick tock was was feeding me this stuff. You know what I mean? Being like, No, you’re good. We know you love this. And you’re and you’re fine. Look at all these, you know, diverse voices that are telling you that you’re fine. The ones that you were worried about in the first place, they’re telling you that you’re fine. So you’re fine. It’s fine. You know? Like, yeah, it’s, it’s wild. How much they know. Yeah, it sure is. Yeah. And I heard someone say to, like, go on tick tock. Or like, like people are afraid of going on tick tock because they’re afraid of knowing who they really are. It’s wild.

Phil Rickaby
That I mean, I could definitely see that because it because you know, tick tock can reveal to you a lot about what you what you want to give your attention to.

Sam Chaulk
Yes. Like so many people, there’s such a huge community on Tik Tok, or, like, I’m a lesbian because of tick tock like, or, like, I found out that I was gay because of tick tock, you know, like, for sure. I see how that. I see how that makes sense. Hmm. Because that could actually be hard to figure out, you know, like, but the algorithm figures it out for you. And then it’s like, okay, here you go. Yeah. And they’re like, Oh, I hope this is the thing that I couldn’t put my finger on my whole life, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
So Sam, one of the things that I love to talk to people about is their, their theatre origin stories, everybody has a different different story about about what it is that drew them to the theatre, whether it was something as a as a child in their teenage years that for you, what is it that that that first drew you to the theatre and made you want to pursue it?

Sam Chaulk
My little thing that I say for this is basically, as soon as I was old enough to understand that the people on TV were actors, I asked to the enacting classes. So I just asked my because I, that’s all I wanted to do. So that was I started acting classes when I’m six. And everything in my life when I was a child was just like, you know, dramatic play all the time, every day always. So, I was one of those people who just knew immediately, like, out of the womb kind of thing. And then I’ve like, explored in a lot of different directions in terms of, you know, doing music or playwriting or comedy, different stuff. And then, I was in high school I did, I was at a show choir. So I did a lot of musical theatre bits, which was super fun and kind of made me come into myself as a performer at that time, and then, and then I wanted to go to theatre school. So I went to, I got my BFA at Memorial University of Newfoundland at the time, it was called Grenfell campus, or Yeah, we just call the Grenfell now, it’s like Memorial University to put just like, I don’t know, just call everybody’s calling Grenfell. It’s called. Um, but yeah, so I went there did my BFA and like there’s a really awesome summer theatre situation going on in Newfoundland like we have so much theatre bill, it’s it’s amazing. So I started working. I started working in at those festivals in 2009. That was like my first year as a working actor. The first vessel I worked at was like grand Bank Theatre Festival which was so much fun and so awesome because the artistic director at the time Bernie Stapleton basically with just let us do what we want it like she was like what we were doing rock and roll have and What songs do you want to sing? And I was like, I want to do get up off that thing and some Elvis and Like, like it was, it was so free, like, I can choose what I wanted to do. And at the time I was, I was kind of in a songwriting kick. So she was like, do like a little lunchtime Cafe, and you’ll sing your original songs for people and they’ll come listen and have a have a little meal and it’d be great. So it was very, like free form that one. So that one was very grateful to that one. So it was I was just like, Wow, do what I want. So fun. And people were like writing sketches for like the little reviews and stuff. It was just very creatively free. That festival. And then, and then I worked at rising tide Theatre Festival a bunch. Three years, I’ve done summers for rising tide to when I was like around in my BFA. And then when I went back in 2018, which was absolutely beautiful, it’s like a theatre on a war directly on the ocean. And we would like swim on our to show days after doing like a historical walk around and in like the petticoats and everything, who like we’d be so hot and then just swim in the ocean. It’s very idyllic and fun. And, and then I was in Montreal for actually for three years where I started doing improv and I studied more clown. And then and then when I got to Toronto, I got really hard into into improv here. So I was at bad dog like living at bad dog theatre, the old location as engine door

for like four years. And like didn’t do went up came it all their classes.

And we did a show called dreamboats, which was very fun and good. Canada’s next top blank, which was a musical improv show, reality TV show that we actually took to Chicago musical improv Festival in 2018, which was super fun. I also got to study at Improv Olympic. And, and also the annoyance. And yeah, so it was like, heavy, heavy improv focus for a really long time. And, yeah, and then, and then, I guess, the master’s degree, but then integrated kind of all of these pieces of me that I had had previously. And now I’m in this kind of spooky cloud. At least for now,

Phil Rickaby
though, you, you know, you’ve been in several different places, as you’ve as you’ve been studying, what was it that made you decide that you’re going to sort of settle down in Toronto for a while?

Sam Chaulk
I it just made sense. Like, there’s just so much more going on. And and another thing, like with Montreal, it was kind of like, well, the Anglophone theatre community is probably not too much bigger than the theatre community that I’m already integrated into back home in St. John. Right. Right. So if I’m going to be somewhere that smaller like that, I It’s like, I might as well go back to St. John’s, that right, you know what I mean? Yeah. And, like, I may still like it, like, people amaze me over their list after doing this. So great. So I would like if I want to go and I want to discover more and see more than Toronto has to be the place. Yeah. It is, like, I just feel like I’m constantly discovering who I am, as a creator and performer what I’m interested in. And that’s why it’s hard to leave a place like Toronto, because I’m just like, oh, I want to see everybody come through. Sure. You know, like, I got to see red bastard, like a month ago or a little bit longer than a month ago at Sweet action Theatre, which was fantastic. So good to see him after having like, just, you know, had to, you know, scrape through all of his YouTube videos and stuff, you know, what I mean? Like trying to write trying to learn about it, try to

Phil Rickaby
figure out what is what is it actually like to see this in performance? Because I can only see what’s on YouTube or when people tell me

Sam Chaulk
exactly, like it was a hard thing to study goof off without having any examples and being able to see it. So, yeah, I love being exposed to every to everyone you know. And then also, like, some of the improv shows that I saw back in the day, man, like combustion festival, like some of that stuff just absolutely. Blew my mind. You know, they were, it was, oh, man, there’s this one they did that rapidfire does called underscore where they have like, a DJ basically compose a whole Like at like 40 minute track. And then the that has kind of structure built into IT infrastructure built into it. And they have the the festival ensemble. So everybody from everywhere, right? Do this show and oh, man, like I’ll never forget, you know, it’s like, yeah, when you eat a stuff that good. You know it, you know?

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Now you also did the six week summer course at cole Philly, Philly going yay, this up this past summer. Sure. Tell me about that.

Sam Chaulk
It was awesome. It was, it was so so good. I had the time of my life. I also was, you know, destroyed. But I had the time of my life, that I got funding for it. From Canada Council for the Arts. And my pitch to them for going there was basically like, look, I had to do my Masters during the pandemic, and I had no live performance whatsoever. And so now I feel like I’m terrified that I have all this, like, calcium buildup over me as a performer. And I just like don’t have any trust, when I’m performing live, and I’m just scared to go do it. Basically. You know, this guy’s going to die soon. I want to go, please, please let me go so far. And they let me and boy, it didn’t exactly the things that I needed it to do. Like, it really got me back in touch with, like, the pleasure of performance, which is really their big thing, right. But I had so many layers to chip away. And like, one thing that’s amazing about there, I found was the environment that that he creates in that classroom,

drops ego to the bottom. And it’s like, When are you ever in a space like that?

Phil Rickaby
No, that’s for sure. That’s for sure.

Sam Chaulk
You know what I mean? When are you ever in a space where it’s like, whoever has the biggest ego is just absolutely floundering and doing miserably like, and like and one thing I learned too, is like, it’s not just it’s not just that overconfident ego like that, like cocky ego, that is the problem. Like my ego was a huge problem, too. But it was like, like an insecure expression of ego. Because I wanted everybody to like me. I wanted everybody to think that I was good. You know? And so I was pushing. Like, the things that I think are good about me. Yeah, on to other people. And it was just like, the soon as I got up there, he clocked it immediately. Right? And then, but he’s doing this and very, like, sort of, I don’t know, he’s saying these things very sort of, like esoteric can show kind of ways, right? Yes. So it takes you a little bit longer to, to figure that out then than it is for him. But like when you look back, like oh, yeah, he saw that, like, right away. But it took me forever, to just stop pushing, like, and I was like, wow, like this is compulsive. Like, well,

Phil Rickaby
I mean, it’s so hard. I remember when I was in theatre school, um, the thing I was most afraid of was failing. Yeah. You know,

Sam Chaulk
I don’t want any of us and you’re trying not to fail.

Phil Rickaby
Exactly. Exactly, trying. And then when you’re doing that, you’re you’re not going to succeed because you’re not actually concentrating on the things that need to need to need to concentrate on there was like, the main thing was, I don’t want to fail and oh, wait, what am I doing? I’m kind of kind of not doing a great job right now. Because I’m so worried about failing.

Sam Chaulk
Exactly. And then and then you like, like, I think that that’s something that kind of came up for me when I was doing improv, like, in the later days, like, before, the pandemic was like, I would often lose track of what I was doing. Because I was in that space. And like, I all of a sudden, that’s like getting in your head, right? I all of a sudden wasn’t there with the thing that I was doing. I was with myself being like, Is this any good? Like, maybe I should do that still be good? And, like, that kind of stuff. It’s like and that and that is to my point, like, that is ego. And like I knew that way before. Like, I almost saw myself as like a victim of that or something, you know, but like that, no. Like, I needed to really let that go. And like, you know, I was pushing, pushing, pushing, like at the school. And then and then I just thought it was like, Okay, I’m going to drop everything. Like I’m going to stop trying it all. I’m just going to get up there and like breathe Isn’t that gonna be it? Because I just don’t know what to do. And so I did that. And then I was like, I’m boring, you know, like, and then man one day was like, during goofball I had, I went up there. He didn’t beat the drum. He was beating the drum for video. This was like an individual exercise and just to start them. And I just stood there. And I was like, like, today, my strategy is to take deep breaths, right? Like, you know, so terrified. And I’m just like, taking my deep breath, he doesn’t beat the drum. And then he’s just like, we’d all love you. Goodbye. Yeah, like, and I was like, I didn’t even start the exercise, feel like I didn’t start. And then the class was like, letter battle, or when he was like, No, I am the D jar, I make the decision. But like, when he did that, it was like, it showed me like, went because the class was really kind of, but against him on that decision. Yeah. And I was like, when I do this, I’m taking myself as a performer, away from my audience. My audience wants me and, and by pushing, or by just being terrified, I’m not giving myself to them at all. We know, and they want it. And they deserve to have it, you know what I mean? So like, How can I find my way around the fear? What do I need to do? And and then the thing is, is like, when you actually then do it, and succeed, and have fun and play, it’s always just barely mysterious. So like, right, you know, like, it’s, I can’t be like, here’s my formula. I, you know, I, I breathe deep down into my butthole. And then I like, you know what I mean? Like, it’s like, that’s how I do it. There’s none of that. Really. I mean, the only thing I think the thing I feel that it’s like, pretty hard to put a finger on. But the thing that I feel like I learned to tap into the most is just that feeling of, like, play. Like what it feels like to be enjoying playing. Yeah. Like, what, like, I can recognise when I get into that zone, and where exactly that is. Yeah. And that’s really just the beginning. But that’s something I can do now. And I even, you know, I can recognise it when I like, talk to the chat, you know, or like to a baby, and I’m like, there it is, like, the thing they wanted me to do. You know what, like, the play there, I feel it, I can feel. So that’s like, the main thing that I’ve gotten in touch with I think sticks are

Phil Rickaby
always so high when you’re at school, though, like, man, like, no, it’s no wonder that that, you know, I was so afraid of failing. Yeah, and therefore fail. I mean, because the stakes are pretty high. And, you know, it’s, it’s that that that need to succeed that desire to succeed it because there are so few situations where we feel like we are free to fail. Right? And school should be one of them. But we always feel like if I fail here, they’re gonna, like hate me here, whatever, you know, it’s Yeah,

Sam Chaulk
that’s a structural problem. Like that’s, you know, it shouldn’t be based on like, assessing how well you fit a certain criteria, right? Which is what I liked about the goalie aid pedagogy, right? Like, it was never telling me what I did, right? The via negativa, right? Because I feel like as soon as someone with an opinion tells you what’s right, then you’re kind of starting to create people who are the same and people are trying to do something like somebody else did it? Yeah. Whereas like, if you’re kind of getting told what you’re doing wrong. It has the effect of letting everybody be right in their own way. Yeah, you know what I mean? So I, I really appreciate I really appreciated that that teaching method, but it’s like, yeah, you don’t want to make a bunch of carbon copies of, you know, whoever is the most accomplished teacher at the school. Because you want to let everybody be exactly who they are, and find exactly who they are. And the only way you can do that is by failing and making mistakes. Yeah, that’s it. Absolutely. There’s no other way. Like it should like yeah, I’m thinking of my nanny life. It’s like that I’m telling the children that all the time and like that’s a part of it. That’s a part of it. You’re like you’re making mistakes that you don’t need to get frustrated with yourself. But when you’re assessed based on correct and incorrect answers, you know, and then that whole seeps over into creative stuff like Theatre School, for example. Then you get a bunch of people who are trying to be right and all the same ways and then what Right.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So people will be able to see influenced at the one that only Festival event on June 9. You’ll be at the Montreal Fringe Festival in June in June and also at the Winnipeg Fringe Festival, I guess. late July.

Sam Chaulk
Yes, it is like the last two weeks to dry purge.

Phil Rickaby
Perfect. Well, Sam, thank you so much for joining me. It’s been a it’s been a real delight.

Sam Chaulk
Yes, absolute delight. Phil, thank you so much for having me.

Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcasts, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings help new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes are on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod. And you can find the website with the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at PhilRickaby. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy