#361 – Cass Van Wyck
Cass Van Wyck (she/her) is double Dora-nominated actor/producer who splits her time between her positions as Co-Artistic of the Assembly Theatre and Artistic Director of One Four One Collective. Throughout her 10+ year acting career, she has performed in the UK and all throughout Canada working with many notable directors including Daniel MacIvor, Soheil Parsa, and Marie Farsi. Select credits include Tracy in Two Minutes to Midnight (The Assembly Theatre, 2022 Dora Nomination – Outstanding Performance by an Individual), Shelley in The Huns (One Four One Collective, 2022 Dora Nomination – Outstanding Performance by an Individual) and Moira in Therac 25 (Unit 102 Actors Co., 2019 My Entertainment World Critics’ Pick Award Nomination – Outstanding Leading Performance). Cass is excited to be making her directorial debut this coming May 2023 with Bone Cage by Catherine Banks at The Assembly Theatre. Originally from the small town of Fenwick, Ontario, Cass currently lives in Toronto and can normally be found baking chocolate chip cookies and cheering on the Blue Jays.
www.cassvanwyck.com
Twitter: @classvanwyck
Instagram: @classvanwyck
Bone Cage Tickets: https://www.theassemblytheatre.com/bonecagebycatherinebanks
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Transcript
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Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby, and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years. But I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble.
Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.
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Cass Van Wyck is a double Dora nominated actor producer who splits her time between her positions as co-artistic director of the assembly theatre and artistic director of one for one collective, she is making her directing debut with one for one’s bone cage running at Toronto’s assembly theatre may 5 to 20th. Here’s our conversation
I would love for you to tell me about bone cage.
Cass Van Wyck
Yeah, I’m excited to tell you about bone cage.
So this is a show that I came across a couple months ago by a wonderful Canadian playwright named Katherine banks. It’s a governor general award winning play. And it tells the story of a bunch of small town folks in Nova Scotia, um, and all the things that come with growing up in a small town good and bad. All of these characters are very feeling stuck for various reasons whether it is you know, stuck in their own grief, whether it is socioeconomic, whether it is stuck in their ignorance, just just very stuck in the bubble that is created when you grow up in a remote small community. And yeah, the storytel You know, features a lot of young characters, that kind of feeling when you are in your, you know, early 20s you already feel a little bit stuck, I think about trying to figure out what’s coming next in your life. And then you add on top of on top of all of that, which is already kind of built into that time period of your life. You you add in the small town limitations and yeah, it really it really just creates for some really great storytelling and really good theatre. If I do say so myself,
Phil Rickaby
so no did were you drawn to this due to growing up in a small town yourself?
Cass Van Wyck
Yes. I mean, it’s it when I read this script. I instantly recognised all of these characters. I went oh, I grew up with that one. Oh, yeah, that was that guy in high school. Oh, that person I still know and still lives in my town and my small town I grew up it you know, like it was it’s a very you know, anyone who’s who grew up in a small town if you read this play or see this play, you will instantly recognise these characters. They are beautifully written. They are incredibly problematic for various reasons, but in a way that what Katherine Banks has done so beautifully in her storytelling is you can absolutely disagree with the actions of these characters the language to these characters use, but you understand the circumstances that they are in and that they have grown up in that essentially lead them to behaving in the way that they do. And so what that’s what I really loved about it is there’s this there is, you know, there is problematic language and there is problematic content in this play. And it was, and although it is, you know, can be tricky to navigate, I think it’s really important because what it does is essentially, you no not pull punches on what it actually is to grow up in a town like that. And the culture that is manifested in a lot of small towns right across Canada in the small town I grew up in and the one that’s featured in this play as well. And the other reason I was really drawn to this play was because of all the young characters, most of the characters in this play are under the age of 25. Right. And at assembly theatre, we had hosted the indie general auditions back in, I guess it would have been October, November. And we saw 200 People over four days, it was crazy, and it was awesome. But what I was really inspired by that process, because I, you know, we were coming out of it. And during that time was really well, people were really starting to kind of venture out for the first time and really feel like we could potentially be producing theatre, again, without the risk of going into another lockdown, or, you know, things coming to a halt. And so, you know, for three years, I mean, you know, this film preaching to the choir here we had, you know, essentially not had the opportunity to be connecting and meeting new people. And there’s a whole generation of new grads coming out of school, who have been unable to come and connect with the indie theatre community in Toronto and across Canada. And in DC theatre is really where you cut your teeth when you’re a new grad. It’s where you come to play and experiment and try and learn and all the things and that was my experience moving to Toronto was it wasn’t till I met folks in the indie theatre community that I genuinely felt like I belonged. And Ben was supposed to be here. And so you know, with with COVID, we weren’t able to do that for three years. And there’s, there’s like a, I mean, without making them sound like a product, there’s a backlog of new of new faces, new people, new, young, hungry, excited, talented folks. And what these generals did was kind of open that world for me where I went, Oh, my gosh, I want to work with all of them. They’re all so good. And so I started, I read it really actually started with me looking for shows that had a cast of young people. And that’s how I came across this play originally. I was really inspired by by that weekend of of meeting literally 200 new people and going How do I work with them? And I will say I was originally, you know, trying to find something that I could act it, but that but when I came across this script, I absolutely fell in love with it. I mean, I think Katherine banks is a remarkable remarkable playwright, it’s it’s she writes in this very poetic way. It’s absolutely beautiful. And, and to your point earlier, was able to really recognise this very three dimensional representation of what it is to grow up in a small town, the good and the bad. And so it kind of it checked all the boxes, except for there was no role for me. So I went, Okay, I want to do this play, I want to tell this story. I want to work with all these young, amazing, brilliant young actors that I’ve just met and been introduced to so I mean, I’ve always wanted to direct so maybe I dip my toe in that direction. And then we were off to the races. So yeah, I think I guess it really did start with me wanting to find something to work with, with to provide an opportunity to work with all these these new amazing young artists. And yeah, then it’s really interesting.
Phil Rickaby
The, you know, the trajectory of a lot of these young artists who graduated during during the COVID year, yeah, some of them like barely, were able to get an actual stage. Yeah, they have to do zoom show. Yeah, and take their acting classes over zoom, which is like how do you teach somebody to theatre act over zoom? It’s So
Cass Van Wyck
I can’t even I can’t even imagine what that process must have been like, for them. I really, I, one of the, the actors who I cast in this show who I was first introduced to, via the generals had told me a story that so at the generals, we offered folks to either do a monologue, or they could come in with a partner and do a scene. And the scene that this this young actor did with his scene partner was one that they had done in university, but an only done over zoom. So they hadn’t. So the when they got together to rehearse for this audition, that was the first time they were doing this scene in person, because they had only only been able to do it over zoom throughout COVID when they were in school, and I thought, oh, my gosh, this is such a, such a wild experience and very unique experience that these folks have had, because I yeah, I genuinely don’t know if I could have done it. To be honest. It was hard enough, just existing during that time, let alone being in school, let alone being an eater school, you know, exactly.
Phil Rickaby
It’s really wild. Yeah. Now we were talking about about small towns, and it’s Yeah, amazing. How, in a small town, no matter where it is. There are the same people. Yes. And it’s, I guess it’s a product of a small town and the small insular community. Yeah, of everybody being in everybody else’s business that sort of, like, draws that in?
Cass Van Wyck
Yeah. Yeah, I, I will say I, I absolutely loved growing up in my small town. I loved it, I love the gym sense of community. It like it really was a very, very, very close knit community. It was a, I had a wonderful childhood, and very good experience growing up in that town. That said, I’m a syst, white girl. So I also understand that, you know, growing up in that town was through that lens. And it’s quite possible that others not would not view their experience in the exact same way, based on the lens that they that they have, you know, during that time. But there are there are a lot of really wonderful things that that that that are fostered from it. And truly, it’s it I learned, I learned what it is to be a part of a community growing up in my hometown. You know, whenever there was any sort of tragedy or, or, or something that happened to a family, everyone would step up, regardless if they knew the family personally or not. You know, I can speak to When, when, when my father passed away, like we, we had 250 people show up to we had to get a bigger venue for the, for the funeral, because it was, you know, it’s just and that’s, that’s the, that is the kind of care and responsibility that is fostered when you grow up in a town of, you know, 1500. And, of course, with that, there is also comes some problematic behaviour as well, right? You know, we are we are products of our environment, and when your world is the size of 1500 people, then your perspective is only that big. And something that I’ve what I really love about this play, is that and something that I’ve really been struggling with, during COVID Is it really feels like, you know, when when COVID hit, there was this real deep line drawn in the sand. And there was a real us versus them mentality that we had already been seeing in the States for sure, via Trump, politics and everything, but I think COVID really amplified it here in Canada, and we saw them with the truck rallies and we saw it with the anti backs and all of this and there was a real I’m on the side of the line and you’re on that side of the line. And I was really struggling during that time because a lot of people that I genuinely love like genuinely would jump in front of a bus for who still live in my small town and never left. We’re on the other side of the line. And I had a really an I’d still still to this day struggle with how to reconcile that because I know them to be good kind people And, you know, the views and the the rhetoric that they were, you know, talking about and sharing could not be further from how I was feeling about this situation. And it was, yeah, it was a, it’s a very hard thing to negotiate. And what I really love about this play, and I think what Katherine has done so beautifully is the rhetoric is there, the problematic language is there, the problematic behaviour is there, but you have a very clear insight into the why. And so you might disagree. In fact, you probably will disagree with their actions and their language, but you’ll understand where it coming from. And I think that is something that we have really lost over the last couple of years. And when you do draw that big line in the sand, you lose that sense of, you know, there’s, someone once said this to me, and I think it’s really a lovely piece of advice that I use a lot in my day to day life is there’s a difference between fighting and arguing. And when you fight with someone, you want to hurt them, and you want to say things that will, will hurt them, there’s there’s no impulse to come up with a consensus or a solution. And when you argue, you are arguing, you are doing that, in order not only to get your point across, but to also try and understand their point as well. And I do understand that at some point, there is no consensus on a lot of things I get that I’m not saying I do think it’s unrealistic to think that we’re all just going to come and sit in a circle and sing Kumbaya, like I do get that but I think we absolutely have lost the ability to try to to try and understand where these views and thoughts and ideas are coming from. Because if you if you take a microscope to it, it’s all there. It’s very clear. And I can disagree with it. Black Hole wholeheartedly full stop. But it doesn’t mean I don’t understand. And that’s what this that’s I really believe is truly one of my favourite things about this play, is it really gives a very beautiful three dimensional look at at those communities and that culture of small town. Yeah,
Phil Rickaby
it’s interesting. I grew up in sort of a midsize town, and really, part of my life, everything this midsize town, and, and one of the things that strikes me moving forward, as I’ve gotten older, is the difference between other people who stayed in the people who left Yes. Yep. And the people who were left went out into the world and they met people, they met people of different religions and different different different different melanin levels. They met people with different political beliefs. And the people who stayed did not do any of those things. Yeah. And so it’s, it’s, it’s like, trying to have a conversation with somebody who has stagnated and you can’t quite explain to them how you have not
Cass Van Wyck
Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s a really that’s a really important perspective, because that’s exactly where these characters are in this play invoke cage is they are at this moment of trying to move forward and they can’t for various reasons, all these characters want to not be stagnant anymore, they want to be moving forward, they want to be getting out they want change and for various reasons are unable to and yeah and the dangers are the dangers might be a strong word but the the the result of of doing that you really do foster you know that that that sort of culture within these small towns that can be incredibly problematic. And it is hard to when you it’s the classic what’s that about some old Greek myth about the fire in the shadows, right? You only see know what you know, right? You only know what you know, you can’t blame people for that. No, I think there’s a difference between ignorance and neglect. Yeah, right. Like if you are an ignorant person is because you don’t know You don’t know anything but the world around you and you and you can only react in the way you can only react to the surroundings that surround you. But if you do no better and you were choosing not to do that, that’s what I have a problem, right? That’s when I go okay. Like let’s let’s see if we can figure out exactly what your motives are here. But I think I would argue that 90% of people who are viewed as problematic in this country are enduring. You know, I don’t think it’s and it’s ignorance doesn’t mean stupid, right? I think there’s a real there’s also this disconnect, I think between being called ignorant and being called stupid, right? I think what people think, when, when, if someone is called ignorant, I think they think they’re being called stupid. And that’s not the case at all. And I, again, I, I really, truly to this day, love going home to my small town, and it will never, it will take a lot for that to change. For me, it is my home, it is my safety blanket. And again, I guess I’ll say it again, I’m coming through this through the lens of a sis white woman. So that’s, that’s, I get that that’s my lens. And there’s a certain level of privilege that I’m afforded to feel safe in a community like that. So I truly understand that, but But yeah, everyone I know, that still lives there that exhibits, what many folks would consider problematic behaviour. They’re there, they’re just ignorant. They just don’t know what they don’t know, a world other than, you know, the 1500 people, you know, and when your perspective is that big, then how can you how can you be expected? And again, it’s a hard conversation, because you don’t you want to, you want to be able to challenge people to be better. But if they don’t know that there is anything better than how do you challenge them to do that? You know, it’s how do you how do you set those expectations when, when those kinds of experiences or ideas or new perspectives come from just expanding your world, and a lot of folks genuinely don’t have an opportunity to do that for various reasons, kind of like the characters in this play. So, yeah, it’s it’s, you know, we really, yeah, I think we’ve really lost the ability to to try and I don’t know, at the base, come to the table with a level of compassion. Yeah. And, and, yeah, I really, I really, really love that this play really portrays this town in that kind of way. You know, there’s, there’s a real you really leave there going, listen, I, I absolutely do not condone the language that that character used, but I get why he did it. Again, it that sucks for him.
Phil Rickaby
I was years ago, I was visiting. I was visiting a friend’s folks who were visiting. And, you know, I was reminded through an incident there that people who don’t know don’t know. Right, so they were talking about being at the store. And somebody did not give them the correct chain. And the way they described that was to say that that person had Jude them. Oh, cheese. Yeah. And we sat there and we sort of like, looked at this person, that this person’s father who said, You realise what you just did? Yeah. And he hadn’t it never occurred to him. Yeah. That that was a slur. Yes, it was just a thing that you said absolutely
Cass Van Wyck
failed. That’s, that’s a, that’s an exact example of this sort of thing. It’s, a lot of the times, folks aren’t saying it knowingly with the full context of what that actually mean. I mean, I’ll give a great example to like people for myself when, you know, growing up in the 90s, or the early 2000s, like, using the phrase that’s gay. That’s gay. And I will never credit to my parents, man. And my father, particularly, I said that at the dinner table one night, and he looked at me, he goes, we don’t say that in this family. And I went, why. And he went on a full explanation of why that is problematic. And it had it didn’t like, like your friend’s father. It hadn’t even occurred to me. Yeah, that that was a problematic and very disrespectful thing to say, because I was 10. And, you know, that’s when all the kids at school were saying, I don’t know. And it was through that education that I went, Oh, okay. Yeah, no, you’re right. That is really inappropriate and not cool. And I won’t do that Dad, thanks for telling me. You know, but but I would have I would have gone through life doing that if I if I hadn’t been educated in that kind of way. So, absolutely. Yeah. You know, we’re all and again, this is, you know, I don’t think, you know, I think a lot of folks use that phrase during that time, whether you were in a small or not. But you know, there were are and also like there were also various slurs would be the wrong word, but it made me phrases that I wasn’t till I moved to Toronto that I went. Someone had to point out to me like, that’s not a preferred. I’d be like, oh, yeah, oh my gosh, it hadn’t even considered to be concise. It hadn’t even crossed my mind. Yeah. And I would consider myself a pretty well educated, liberal, inclusive human and, and if I’m still making these mistakes, that I have to continuously catch myself incorrect, then, you know, it makes sense that anyone who hadn’t had an opportunity to mean their circumstances that caused these problematic things to be in their, in their actions or their vernacular, then yeah, you know, we’ve we’ve been, we really have to examine what we can be doing, whether it’s through education or others to to help counter that. So it’s it, you know, goes beyond the culture of city. Right and permeates into the culture of small towns as well.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. When I was when I was a kid growing up in the ancient times of the 70s. Was, was, yeah, we didn’t say gay was Gaylord. That was the thing that everybody said, and I, I remember that thrown around. And I don’t remember exactly what happened a long time ago. But somehow, after, I think I said it at home. And my dad was like, we don’t think that’s for different reasons. He wasn’t being inclusive. He was like, you don’t Yeah, people that Yeah. Wouldn’t be covered more inclusive until much later. Okay, fair. Oh, that’s right. Yeah. But like, you know, it was it was a word that people said, and I didn’t understand what it meant. Until it was explained and told, you know, we don’t do that.
Cass Van Wyck
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, like, truthfully, both my parents were actors, they grew up in a very, like, they may have lived in a small town, they didn’t grow up in that small town, right there. You know, I was kind of raised within a bubble within the small town bubble, you know, so I, I would come home to a very inclusive, you know, respectful art scene environment. And then I go to school with folks that were using very different language that would not be accepted in my home. And, and, and again, it kind of, I guess, even now that I’m talking about this now, kind of, even as a kid, I think I’m just trying to reconcile that in my head. Knowing that, you know, using those kinds of phrases and words were absolutely wrong. But everyone I know, is doing it. So are they bad people? Yeah, my parents are all and my, like, you know, it was a it was Yeah, And now and now, I think the story I told earlier about, you know, the views that have been amplified with COVID It has become, you know, now as adults with with people I like genuinely love to still live in that small town trying to negotiate that is tricky, tricky thing. Yeah. Really?
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, it is. It’s hard to have a conversation with somebody who you start to have the conversation, and they will not listen. You know, I want to talk about being a first time director now you mentioned that you’ve always wanted to draw Yeah, I’m curious where that that desire came from? And what was preventing you from doing it until now?
Cass Van Wyck
Hmm, you know what? I think I it’s a great question. I don’t know if I have a good answer. I think it’s something I’ve always been really interested in. But I really been focused over the last how many years on on moving forward with my thing. And in you know, the way i i was able to continue to get opportunities acting was by producing my own work. And so my focus over the last you know, 10 years in Toronto has been produced the work so I can be in it produce the work so I can be at it so I haven’t really felt like there was an awkward tunity over the last couple of years to do just because that was my sole kind of focus and, and, and the jury that I wanted to be pursuing at that time. Directly. It’s always something that I’ve been really interested in. And mostly because I love my one of my favourite parts during the rehearsal process is table work. And I absolutely I could do table work for months and months and months and months, than just deconstructing the script and the world and these characters. was and all of that kind of stuff. And I think the part of directing that most appealed to me was was being able to approach a script with kind of just that. Because I think that’s a huge part of directing is being able to have a very clear grasp on the story you’re telling and the way in which you’re going to tell it. And that really comes from doing your own version of table work before you even get to the table work. Right. And, yeah, I think that was that’s always been kind of percolating, and it like I said earlier, it really wasn’t until I came across the script and went, Okay, checks all the boxes. It’s, it’s, it’s Canadian, because I love producing Canadian work, whether new or existing, it, you know, mostly characters that are that are young, there are opportunities for young emerging artists. And it’s representing a small town in a way that I feel that I would like to tell that story. And in the way that Catherine has written this, the only missing part is how do I fit in? And so I and that’s when it kind of the light bulb kind of went off what this is, this is the moment this is you’ve been waiting for an opportunity to have this happen, I think, I think this is it. And I think that light bulb mostly was turned on because of the story and because of my personal connection to what it’s like to grow up in a small town. And it felt like an important, very personal story that I feel very connected to, and very, like I have the quote unquote qualifications to tell because of my own experience. And yeah, directing is something that I really, it’s interesting, it’s been an interesting process, it’s been a real learning curve. For me, I’m not gonna lie. I’ve worked in small things here and there, but nothing on this sort of scale. And the biggest, I think the biggest learning curve, for me is been trying to translate my acting vocabulary into directing vocabulary, because I’ve spent the better part of 10 years developing the vocabulary that I use as an actor in the way in which I talk about character and seen everything. And how do I know, filter that through the voice of a director, and numerous times, I have to catch myself going don’t give a line reading, how do you get them to sit with you? Right, because my actor brain kicks in and goes, I know how to do that you would like this. Yeah. And, and having to suppress down and go, Okay, translate that into direct or speech. And so it feels like a little bit of rewiring. It’s like, my brain knows what to do. But it needs to be rewired. So that the words coming out of my mouth are the right one, not the acting one. And so that’s been a real interesting journey. Over the last couple of
Phil Rickaby
weeks, and so hard, yeah. Yeah, to be the actor and suddenly be the director and know how the line should be said.
Cass Van Wyck
Yes. And yeah, as far as I’m concerned. Right. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I will say I really, what was really important to me was that this be a very inclusive room, a very, you know, best idea wins. I don’t care who it comes from, you know, like, I just want to tell I have a very clear vision for the way in which to tell this story. And if your ideas line up with that vision, let’s do it. You know, like, I am not precious about it needing to be my way or the highway here. Yes, I have a sense of like, the way in the story as a whole wallet what needs to be there in order to tell that story. But like, you know, when it comes to blocking or props or set or anything like if any of the actors of any of the production team, if anyone on the stage made a mistake. Twitter’s been wonderful, giving me lots of really good insight. Like, I think you don’t do this work in a vacuum. And I think it’s important to have someone steering the ship. Like I think you do need one person with a singular vision. But I really tried to make this process as Yeah, inclusive and malleable as possible, because there’s really smart actors in the room right there. They’re really talented and really smart. And I think a lot of the times, you know, that can if Whether in whatever position on a on a team, whether it is the director or lighting designer or or or are too stuck in their idea of what they want. It can be it can it just takes away from the process. And in the long run the the end result of the story that you’re telling.
Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. Years ago when I was in theatre school, one of our directors were directing a children’s show. And this was the director that worked out, you know, they did all the blocking on paper before. But we weren’t getting it. Yeah. We weren’t getting it. It’s like it was something about it was too complicated. We weren’t getting it. Yeah. And at one point, he just yelled at us. I don’t know why you’re not getting it. It works on paper. And we were not on paper.
Cass Van Wyck
Yeah, we’re not paper people.
Phil Rickaby
We’re not, this isn’t paper, this is the stage and we all have to, you know, work together. But he was like, so old school, like it works on the paper. That’s how we’re doing it. And that’s not a collaborative?
Cass Van Wyck
No, and it’s not, I don’t think it, it don’t think it serves the story. Right. Because the whole point of and this is the one thing I love most about this art form is or this, you know, performance in general is my version of Hamlet is going to be different from your version of Hamlet is going to be from his and hers and theirs. And everyone’s right it is because we bring our own experience, we bring our own perspectives, we bring our own life experience into it, right. And that’s just going to mean that different moments in this script, hit differently for each individual person. And if you aren’t, I don’t subscribe to the you know, I was that person. And that person was me. Like, I became the character in that moment. And I didn’t exist, I think a lot are bullshit. I’m not gonna lie, like, listen, like if that helps you in your process? Fine. Sure. But I truly, truly believe you have to be able to bring a certain level of yourself to a border to portray it as authentically as possible. Yes. And, and if you prescribe what that is, before an actor is even in the room, then you’re you’re setting them up to fail? Absolutely. I’ve been on, you know, I’ve experienced that on the acting side. And I’ve been trying very hard to not let that permeate into my directing style, because I know how detrimental that can be to an actor a feeling confident in what they’re doing and be what that final performance.
Phil Rickaby
Like. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We’re talking about about table work. Yeah, earlier. And there’s really nothing more important to the process of a play, then that initial table. Yeah. Because it’s where the director of the stage manager and everybody and all the actors sit down and read through the play, and figure out, what are people actually saying, yeah, what’s actually happening in the scene? Yeah. What’s the relationship between these characters? Yeah. And I was in years ago, I did a play and the director was like, I don’t do table
Cass Van Wyck
pool. And be in that play. It was,
Phil Rickaby
it was like, what? And then we, so what ends up happening is suddenly, you are lacking essential information about the relationships between characters that at some point, the actors go off by themselves and figure it out. Yes, they do. And they have that information from the beginning.
Cass Van Wyck
Yeah, yeah. And not only I remember, I think about this all the time. Marie Farsi, who is not only a friend, but truly one of my favourite directors in Canada. Now, she said, when we started rehearsals round one of the Huns way back, and whenever that was 2014, it that we all need to figure out what play we’re doing together. And we all need to be in the same play. We all need to decide what this plays as a team, and then be in it. Because there’s nothing worse than watching two actors on stage. And they’re not in the same play. And the lighting designers not designing the same play and set designers not designing the same play. The table work is really a moment for a collective agreement on what this is and how we want to do it. Yeah. And on top of that, I think for a play like bone cage, there are literally twice as many offstage characters mentioned, as there are characters on stage. So we had to spend a lot of time building out the world out, like the full world of this community that these characters lit. We had to decide the geography of it. We had to decide where’s the church versus where’s the river versus where’s the the fire hall, et cetera, is all these places that are mentioned on these characters? Those that are mentioned in the play, they we all needed to have a very, very, very clear sense of what this town looked like feels like an is because I think this way, it could get a little bit in the same way that I think people feel really reading like Game of Thrones where they have to like, look back and see like, Wait, who was that character? You know, because there’s so many of them. I feel like there’s a bit of a, there could be a trap for the audience to be a little bit like, Wait, who’s that person? Wait, who’s that? Because there are so many offstage characters mentioned. So the the more specific, we could get around who these people were and what their relationships are to them and how we feel about them, the clearer it’s going to be for the audience. And so it was really important to me that we spend, we spent a lot of time doing table work. And what I have found is from the acting side is that if you invest in the table work, when you finally stand it up to block it, it’s there, it’s all there. It just, it’s now just about bodies in space, right? If we know what story we’re telling now, how do we express this via movement around the stage? And if the width and the exploration of these characters is done, is yes, happening through the blocking and, you know, the interact, the physical interaction between characters, but a lot of that groundwork has been done in the table work, and so it’s already very, you’re already starting three steps ahead. Yeah. And makes the rest of that process relatively absolute. And so yeah, we spent so we spent a lot of time on it. Hey, because I like it. But also, because I think it was for this place this specifically, I think it was very important that we all decide as a team, what this play is what the story we’re telling, what is this town? Who are these characters? Who and What are your relationships to them? Because if we don’t know that the audience is not going to know it either. So important? Yeah. Yeah.
Phil Rickaby
We alluded to this near the beginning of talking about about NDC. Yeah. And, and it’s important, but I want to sort of delve in a little bit further into the importance of indie theatre, both in the, the ecosystem of theatre in a city, but also to the the actors, the directors, the people who cut their teeth on any theatre. Yeah. Yeah.
Cass Van Wyck
I mean, I think that’s, that’s really the sense of it. I mean, I, when I first moved to Toronto, as a young actor, I, I mean, I had the very naive perspective that I would knock on the doors of Cannes, stage and soap opera and factory and they’d be like, of course, cats come on in star in our play. He was lots of money. And lo and behold, that did not happen. And I think I was feeling very discouraged. For the first couple of months living here. I didn’t feel like I fit. I felt like there was a lot of doors being closed. And whether that was because I had set unrealistic expectations for myself more or not, I just really wasn’t feeling like I was supposed to be here, you know. And it wasn’t till I walked in the doors at the storefront theatre, that they welcomed you with big open arms and said, Yeah, come on, in. Who are you? Great. You want to help with this thing? Yeah. Great. Come on in. Yeah. What are you working on right now? Oh, cool. You want to do it here? Great. Like it was just this, like, I just found my people. And all of a sudden I went, Oh, no, no, no, I’m supposed to be here. These are my peers. These are the people I want to be working with. And all of those people I met during that time, that incredibly influential time are people that I now work with, you know, professionally, like Michael Ross, Albert, who I collaborate with all the time on was was was a person I met during that, you know, Claire Burns who although isn’t in Toronto anymore. She’s working a lot of some programming and in Hamilton, she’s a huge mentor of mine and I messaged her a lot asking her questions about running a theatre company and then and all of those people I met that and I understood the immense impact that it had. It had for me during that time. And because there was a physical theatre space to gather at and be a part of, to be a part of the community at was was just a truly, you know, life altering for me. And so I’ve always from from the start understood the importance of indie Theatre for Young actors. And as I kind of move out of the I’m still, I mean, go down the rabbit hole of what emerging artists means, like, who actually have been emerging for 10 years, I don’t know. But as I’m kind of finding, I would be, I would argue, I’m on the precipice of what my next, you know, iteration of my life and career is as being in my mid 30s. Now, I’m realising that, you know, especially after COVID, it is incredibly important to preserve the the spaces for indie theatre, and also the culture of indie Theatre in Toronto, and all throughout Canada. Because I think you said at the beginning, right, it’s part of an ecosystem. And if you take one animal out of the ecosystem, the rest are affected, right? Doesn’t matter how big or small that animal is. It’s all part of, you know, a link. And I mean, the people that do go on to work professionally, the bigger places Stratford, Shaw, Kent, stage, whatever, all cut their teeth, in, in basements in Parkdale like that. It’s Unbeliev either, right? Like, that’s where they got to learn. And I say this all the time to folks that come in and go, yeah, come in, be good, be terrible, be really bad. And then they brilliant again, like, just come in and throw stuff at the wall and see what works and see what you like and see what you don’t like and do all the things right, let this be a space for exploration and creation, and experimentation, and learning and community and all those things, all those things that I think at the core of are the core reasons why we all wanted to do this in the first place, you know, I think we can get really caught up in the career side of it. Because the fact of the matter is we have to eat, we have to pay rent, we have to, you know, buy clothes. So money, unfortunately, is part of the equation. But the the the essence of what we all enjoy about this work is the community is the fun is the exploration is the collaboration. And in the theatre, I think really, because there’s no money. Because there’s absolutely no money to be made. We can just focus on that. You know, and I think yeah, I think for any, any, any artists in any stage of their career, I think it’s I think it’s a important thing to remember. And I think in the theatre, we need to continue to advocate to keep it not only surviving but thriving. And that’s, that’s the part that I’m really interested in focusing on right now is how do we at the assembly theatre? How do we move from this survival structure that we’re in, which is a month to month to month to month thing where no one gets paid? And we’re all just volunteer, because we know we’re passionate about it? And we know it’s important, and how do we move it into a stage that allows it to thrive? Where it still provides all the things that we I just list, but we’re not scrambling every month to be able to figure out how we’re going to pay rent? Yeah. Yeah, indie theatre is like, it’s That’s it, man. It’s like, it’s my, it’s my true love. It’s really,
Phil Rickaby
it’s the place where not only actors get to cut their teeth, say, right, yes, red lighting
Cass Van Wyck
designers, exhausting designers and like, and this is what I really wanted bone cage to be was this. Yes, the characters were all young. And so yes, I had an opportunity to be casting young emerging artists in this play. But I also saw this as an opportunity to be giving young designers a chance to, you know, I’m working with a really wonderful costume designer who’s in her final year at U of T. I’m, you know, the second giant designer, JB Nels, and as young as well, and she’s early in her career in that regard, too, you know, and so it’s, there’s, there’s, I really, you know, any work that I do moving forward, I always want to try it, especially at assembly specifically, always want it to be with through the lens of helping to create opportunities that you know, young artists wouldn’t necessarily get at the larger institutions at this stage in their career. Yeah. So yeah, so yeah, it’s you’re right, it goes it goes beyond just the actors. It’s any any artists at an early stage in their career. Yeah,
Phil Rickaby
I mean, it’s it’s hard because you know, a lot of the the real indie like, like, oh, Sam? Yeah, Gasol. Yeah. There’s no grant money coming in? No, zero. So it’s like, the only way that you can support yourself is either by private donations or through ticket sales. Yes.
Cass Van Wyck
And it’s a very dangerous game, when those are your only two revenue sources. Yeah. Which is why at assembly we’re really, really focused on trying to figure out if, through two boards a charitable status is the way to go. Because and here’s the other thing, we I think we really talked about this, a lot of it really, I mean, during COVID, the light was shone on all the holes in our society, whether it’s health care, whether socio economic disparities, whatever it was, where the lights were, shone on it. And within the theatre, Toronto theatre community, I think the one thing that became abundantly clear, is that there was zero operational funding available to in the theatre. And it’s very, very, very hard for us to access money for operational costs that aren’t in that, that are not based in project by project by project thing. So it’s great, you get a, you know, $25,000 grant to do a play, which will pay your rent for that month, but that’s what Yeah, right. Like, and, and, and be getting access to funds that will allow you to, I mean, I’ve said this from the beginning with my team at assemblies, even even our rent is, you know, relatively low, even if we could just pay have our rent funded for the year, what would do the stress it would take off us so we could actually focus on initiatives that we want to be focused on and use the revenue through, through bookings and rentals, and all of that, to go back into the community to fund things that will solely make a community stronger that oh, my gosh, would be such a game changer. But instead, we’re focused on trying to figure out how many hours we need to rent the space next month to make sure we can pay the electricity bill like and, and our focus is taken away from what we actually want to be doing, which is creating opportunities and events and community events and all the stats to be fostering those stronger community in Toronto and, and truly from an operating budget standpoint, money, like the amount of money these larger institutions get for operating costs is astronomical. And if I had point 5%, of what that grant is that they got what I could do with that would be Yeah, like, it’s really wild to me. And I think it’s, I think it’s, it’s hard and I said it earlier, right, there’s a difference between ignorance and neglect. And we spent Tory Urquhart, big shout out to Tory Urquhart, the biggest indicator advocate that I know who rallied the troops during COVID and has spoken with more Toronto councillors than I have fingers and toes and she’s she’s just a remarkable human being, um, what what she allowed us to do during that time is gave us a platform to really advocate all of this. And it was wonderful to be heard, but I’m very conscious of the fact that a lot of the actions that were supposed to be taken during that time by you know, Toronto City Council by tappa by T AC et cetera or tap I should say no THC and and and Toronto City Council did not happen. And so it’s wonderful to get the platform but if nothing actually comes out of it, now I start going okay, well now it’s an ugly Yeah, because you heard me and you heard me tell you the reasons why and now you choose not to do anything about it. I can understand you didn’t understand before I get it. But now that you are actively choosing not to do that that’s when I have a problem yeah. And we just I mean just because it’s completely top of mind and maybe I will get slandered for this but oh well. Oh the tappa held their general meeting their their their community meeting right town hall meetings a couple months ago. And a lot of what they were talking about was Dora consideration and and the what qualifies what and how many, what the requirements are etc, etc, etc. And they were essentially doing a review with the community to see if the way it’s set up now is still relevant moving forward. We’re now I came to this town hall. And truthfully, I was one of three people that showed up from the theatre community, which was a little disappointing, but also kind of exciting to me because I was like, great, I have the floor. So now I know I can really delve them, I have an opportunity to really tell them how I feel about certain thing. And one of the proposed changes was, and we and for those who don’t know, the Dora categories are mostly determined by budget, right, it’s mostly a financial consideration for whether you are in the theatre, general theatre, etc, etc. And one of their proposals was to, essentially the threshold between envy theatre and general theatre is $100,000, which, truthfully, if I have $10,000, I am skipping down the street. So 100,000 is like not even, not, like, remotely in my atmosphere. And what they were hearing from the general in general Theatre Department was that their expenses have gone up because of inflation because of because, because, because, and so they want to raise the threshold to $150,000. To be anything under that is considered in DC or now, I raised some serious concerns with that. Because, I mean, I think there’s already a remarkable discrepancy between for what we consider in the theatre in Toronto, and I get Listen, I know that I’m not the gatekeeper of what indie theatre is, I’m not standing and allowing people to come in and out, I don’t get to decide that. But where, but what I’m seeing is, most of the people around me that I would consider in the theatre or my peers, that threshold is like crazy. Like, that’s not even remotely. It’s not even on the map, man. Like it’s not, it’s not even remotely close to the numbers that we are reaching when we’re producing work that would in theory, be Dora considered. Even, even even, you know, I would argue tough Jews was one of the one of the most successful shows that the storefront ever put on. And that budget wasn’t even called Devi 20, like me. So it’s, like, it’s crazy to me that they, the idea would be that they would up it and lo and behold, today I got an email from Tampa saying all the changes they’re making this year, and that was one of the changes and I’m not gonna lie, Phil, I got really upset because of course you did was I not hurt at all what you were saying is I would rather cater to the higher section of the indie theatre community than the lower section.
Phil Rickaby
And not just the higher section they’re now catering to people that to groups that they perhaps weren’t in the indie section now that they can outspend the in the truly indie group,
Cass Van Wyck
tell me about it. And God damn frustrating. Yeah, I Yeah. And listen, Tableau made some other changes when it comes to the amount of shows. So it was normally nine, they made it seven. So like, there are some I’m not saying across the board, they didn’t listen, they did listen in some areas. But that was a big one for me. And that really sent a very clear message. Yeah, and I’m very concerned with what that message is how that message is going to resonate with the rest of the indie theatre community here in Toronto because I can’t imagine it’s going to go over well and Tampa is a subscription based service. Yeah. And if your service is not serving then we will stop subscribing Yeah, like and and listen, I know listen, I and it’s a weird game to play because I was lucky enough to be door nominated double door nominees last year and the the doors it’s open for me fill this year it sure I’ll and do bid was stupid system because was my acting any better that year? I don’t know like it’s such as silly awards are so silly. Yeah, but But what’s not silly is the opportunities are provided for me so in order to I understand there is a business side of this I get there is a game you have to play there’s there was politics I get it. I’m not I’m not ignorant tonight, but I’m willing to play the game up until a point and and I understand the benefits of what being door not winning. Just being nominated did for me yeah. The Notice the amount of general auditions I got this year. Crazy. Not once in my life have I got these and now all of a sudden I’m being seen by everyone. And the only difference is that I’m door nominated. Yeah. And so the impact that that can have on a young indie theatre artists career is, is crazy. And what we’re essentially saying to the indie theatre community by upping that threshold is, we’re going to make it harder for you to to, yeah, we’re gonna make it harder for you to potentially get a nomination that could have that that could change the trajectory of your career at that moment you’re at, and that I do not think is great. For Norwich community.
Phil Rickaby
It’s, it’s terrible for indie theatre, it’s terrible for indie theatre, because now, groups that didn’t previously qualify as indie will be able to throw their stuff into the ring. They will have you know, they can afford, you know, more expensive Yeah, more expensive actress doesn’t necessarily better actress, but certainly a name gets attention. And now Yeah, and it’s
Cass Van Wyck
hard to it’s a it’s hard to compete, but it’s I mean, like, what does competing mean? I mean, I used to compete in the Dora sense, right? Yeah. Cuz I know what winning or being nominated for one of those means to someone at the stage that I’m in versus the stage of the professional actor who’s working at straw straw and Stratford and, and, and, and, right, yeah. And the difference that that will make for those Shaw and Stratford actors is minimal. What it’ll change for me
Phil Rickaby
is shoot. Yeah.
Cass Van Wyck
And, and, and that’s where it gets incredibly problematic for me. And it’s, it’s just it’s so frustrating. I’ve absolutely, so Oh, well. Top if you’re listening, please don’t take bone cage and consideration. Awards this year. And it’s hard, right? How do you bite the hand that feeds you? Right? Like knowing that knowing that this is a system that gives out these awards that affects essentially affects your career, like, you have to play the game a little bit and I get it and then and I know the type of folks meanwhile, I think they’re all lovely, lovely human being. And I gotta give props to, to the indie theatre advocates within the within the top on the top of board. They really, you know, they hold these monthly tap caucus meetings that any indie theatre artists are allowed to join and talk and talk about their problems and then they bring it back to Tampa. Like I know, it feels like there is a real effort being made. It’s just when stuff like this happens. I go but yeah, but there’s there’s no yeah, we
Phil Rickaby
we have this thing. I don’t know if it’s unique to to runway or if it’s unique to Canada. I don’t know if it’s just the way the theatre world is. But we have this thing where, you know,
Cass Van Wyck
we both felt you’re cutting out. Oh,
Phil Rickaby
sorry. Can you hear me?
Cass Van Wyck
Oh, now I can hear you now.
Phil Rickaby
Okay, good. We have this thing that we do, where we’re almost afraid to criticise. Yeah, even though we criticise because we love the thing. And we want it to be bad. Yes. And yet still, whenever we’re about to say something might be slightly critical. We do the whole like, look over the shoulder who might Yeah. Because we don’t want to be penalised for it. And yet, what we are doing when we criticise is show how much we care.
Cass Van Wyck
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s and it’s in. It’s in. It’s in service of the the, I mean, yes, selfishly, because I am in the indie theatre community. But I’d like to think it goes beyond me. Right. I I see the impact that being Dora nominated had on me, and I want that impact for other people. Absolutely. And so, you know, I think I think it’s, it’s, it’s incredibly important to, to continue to shout as loud as we possibly can to the larger the folks with the money, the folks who have influence the folks that are making these kinds of decisions that you know, and what it also says to me, Phil is like, you really don’t understand the parameters we’re actually working in here. No, you genuinely think that $150,000 is, is in realm is and then that’s yeah, I mean, but again, what Cindy, I don’t know, these nd caucuses have been really really insightful for me right because certain companies are showing up that I would first consider in no hurry, but they do. So it forced me to take a step back. No, okay, well, if they consider themselves in the theatre, then I guess there were just different thresholds of in the theatre like there are categories within in the theatre so Okay, fine. Like if the true dead finish it at the indie theatre is something that is independent from mainstream, fine. Right? That is that is a that is a fair definition. And we can go with that definition. But we also have to recognise that within the indie theatre community, there are levels. And there are thresholds within that. And what I think top is failing to realise is that there are the thresholds, the discrepancy between what the top tier of in the theatre that they’re defining, and the bottom tier is like, it’s crazy. Yeah, it’s crazy. Yeah, I just Yeah, yeah,
Phil Rickaby
no, absolutely. I feel like we could keep talking about,
Cass Van Wyck
we could do this for ages.
Phil Rickaby
I know. Kassadin week. Thank you so much for joining me. I really appreciate you taking the time out of your rehearsal day. And I’m looking forward to bone cage.
Cass Van Wyck
Yeah. Thanks, Phil. We’re excited to have you here. And thank you so much for the opportunity to talk. As always, I am so grateful for the work that you do and the way you advocate for indie theatre. We need more voices like yours, man. And so thank you. And thank you for bringing this contest back.
Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcast, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings help new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod and you can find the website with a complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at PhilRickaby And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy
