#357 – Rachel Mutombo & Natasha Mumba

Rachel Matumbo and Natasha Mumba are the playwright and director of Vierge at Factory Theatre, April 8-30.

Rachel Mutombo is an award-winning actor and writer. She is an acting graduate of John Abbott College’s Professional Theatre program as well as the National Theatre School of Canada. As a freelance writer, Rachel has had essays and articles published by CBC, Intermission Magazine and ByBlacks.com. Her first full length play, Vierge, was awarded the first place prize in Infinitheatre’s annual playwriting competition. Vierge is premiering at Factory Theatre in Toronto in April 2023.

www.rachelmutombo.com
Twitter: @rachel_mutombo_

Natasha Mumba is a Zambian born, Toronto based multi-disciplined artist. She is a graduate of the Acting program at The National Theatre School of Canada as well as the previous Apprentice Artistic Director at Factory Theatre through the generous support of the Metcalf Foundation. She recently had the pleasure of being a Directing Fellow at Why Not Theatre’s ThisGen program, as well having the pleasure of developing her skills in dramaturgy at The Pan-African Dramaturgical Lab hosted by South African company Vrystraat. Her directing credits include; Driftwood Trafalgar: Balance; Factory Theatre: Lady Sunrise (Assistant Director); YPT: The Water Gun Song and Cassius; Studio 180: Gone to see a Man about a dog.

Instagram: @tashamum

Tickets to Vierge: https://www.factorytheatre.ca/shows/vierge/

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Transcript

Transcript auto generated. 

Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby, and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years. But I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.

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Rachel matumbo is an actor and playwright based in Montreal. She’s the writer of veers. Natasha Bula is a Zambian board Toronto based multidisciplinary artist and is the director of veers they joined me to talk about the play, how their partnership came about, and about how they each started pursuing a discipline outside of acting during the pandemic for Rachel playwriting for Natasha directing. You can see Vierge at Toronto’s Factory Theatre from April 8 to 30th. Here’s our conversation.

Hello, Rachel.

Rachel Mutombo
Hi.

Phil Rickaby
And Natasha.

Natasha Mumba
Hey,

Phil Rickaby
all right. Awesome. And this show is called Vierge which is I have to have that right. We’re at Yeah, perfect. As we’re getting started, would you guys one of you or both of you team up whichever you like. Tell me? What is Vierge?

Natasha Mumba
Oh, that’s that’s a Rachel

Rachel Mutombo
can tell you what it means. So Vierge is French. And it translates to Virgin. But also it translates to blank or clean, which I think is an important addition to the title. But Natasha, do you want to talk about are you Oh, wow.

Natasha Mumba
I mean, would you like us to get into this play here?

Phil Rickaby
Absolutely, please.

Natasha Mumba
Yeah, so this play is set in a Congolese basement of an immigrant community. And it’s about four young women navigating adolescence and trying to figure out what it means to be a good Christian girl and try to negotiate themselves around the expectation of their parents. But then at the same time, their parents are also not engaging with them in the conversations of, you know, what popular culture puts in their face about sex about identity and these things. And so they’re trying to sort it out under this banner of veneers, and sort of sorting out who they are within that while still trying to maintain some sort of proximity to the church, which is kind of tagged in with this idea of being pure. Yeah.

Rachel Mutombo
See, you explain it way better than me. But I know I wrote it, but you. Oh, my God.

Phil Rickaby
You know, sometimes sometimes when you write a thing, you need somebody from the outside who can just sort of distil it down?

Rachel Mutombo
Don’t have a good word.

Natasha Mumba
I mean, I’m just reading off the page.

Phil Rickaby
It sounds like I mean, the way that you’re describing it, as somebody who grew up in in fundamentalist churches, I know that just from your description, I know girls like this. I know people who struggled to, to both like be pure to be virgins, while also trying to struggle with with with the world around them, and, and again, not having parents that were willing to talk about this sort of thing. Yeah. Before we get into how the two of you came together with this show, I’m curious about the the inspiration the impetus to create this play.

Rachel Mutombo
Yeah, so I am Congolese and I grew up in the church. And I had an interesting experience. I grew up in this area in Montreal called the West Side. Island, and it’s a suburb on the Island of Montreal, that at the time when I was growing up in the 90s, early 2000s, was predominantly white. So when my family came to Canada, they first were at a church that was primarily Congolese people. And that’s where I mostly grew up. And that’s where I spent my Sundays, I met at some point, we shifted and went to a church that was closer to our home. So a church that was in the West island. So that was like, a quiet, mostly white church, I think there may be a few black families, there wasn’t much. And then eventually, we ended up going back to college church. And in any case, like, these are the communities that I kind of grew up in. And there was always such interest for me and the way that my identity fluctuated. And even though my faith was the same, how I was a different person being in those different environments in those different communities, we’re all there to love Jesus, and you know, all that jazz, but it was different being around like other Congolese people, versus being, you know, in the West Island, and being around predominately white people is a bit more like how I was at school and how I was just kind of a different person. So yes, that’s kind of where it started. For me just exploring the difference in my identities. I’m someone who, whenever people ask me where I’m from, I always struggle to answer because I’m like, What do you mean? Do you mean like, where I’m from originally? Or do you mean like, it freaks me out? But it’s because it’s a layered question for me. And like, My identity is not just one thing. And so that’s kind of where the place started. For me. I wanted to explore how different identities in one person or many people intersect in that way. And I put them in a pressure cooker situation of being teenagers, and being all stuck together every Friday night. Yeah, in this church?

Phil Rickaby
Is is the church the safe place to place where everybody goes on the Friday night?

Natasha Mumba
Safe Space? And interesting. We’re

Phil Rickaby
no, no, but I say it. Yeah.

Natasha Mumba
Great. You know, I think it’s a great word. I think it’s a great word, because that’s what’s assumed of those. Well, that’s what the notion is of church, right? I mean, we all know what the reality can it can be. But sometimes it you know, succeeds in those spaces, whether you know, people, I think the key word for us here is community and these young women are in to be perfectly frank, find themselves in an unsafe space is sort of framed to feel like a safe space. But, and they negotiate that, and I think

Rachel Mutombo
that they tap tactically,

Natasha Mumba
that’s not the word. Yeah. Figure out, I think I pronounced it wrong, whatever lifetime life’s like short. They sort of navigate their own identity, even within that unsafe space. Like there’s still, the thing that I really liked about this piece is that the girls are they’re ambitious, and they’re trying to solve and they’re trying to figure out and they’re doing the best that they can with the information that they have, and not much help from their parents when it comes to real life situations and things.

Phil Rickaby
Well, because it’s the parents who are making the assumption that this is a safe space, right? They’re thinking that, you know, we can’t have them going out in to the, like, Friday night. It’s a dangerous time. We can’t have them going out. We’d send them to the church where it’s safe. Yeah. Where their souls will be taken care of without any trouble.

Rachel Mutombo
I feel like that’s where a lot of youth groups start. It’s like, yeah, they are always on the weekends, because let’s keep the kids off this. Yeah. Friday night is the night where everything goes down. So yeah, I bring him to church, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

Phil Rickaby
Um, so both of you. You’ve been working on this together, Rachel, you’re the playwright. Natasha, you’re directing? Yeah. How did you guys come together on this project?

Natasha Mumba
Um, do you want to take it right? Yeah, go. I’ll take the mic. I’ll tell our story. I love story. Um, so Rachel and I, actually right now we’re in the hall that we first met in when we were cast in the show called The African Mean Girls play, which was directed by the previous artistic director, Nina Lee Aquino, and it went up at buddies and bedtime. What year was March 2019 2019. Yeah. And I know life, and then a year. So we did that show. And you know, it’s funny, because I was just telling people about this, but I remember when we were doing our technical rehearsal, for that play. We were all sitting down and Rachel told us she was like, Guys, I’m going to start writing plays for black women. I’m gonna start writing plays for us and we were like, Okay, girl, see? And then a year later, she applied to the playwriting Unit here at Factory and got in and I was doing the apprentice artistic directorship here, and the directing programme, and she started working on this piece. Then during that time, and then I got introduced to the piece as the apprentice and heard a workshop and a reading Have it. And then I was asked to direct a workshop. And then I fell in love with it. I fell in love with the play. And then Rachel, Rachel graciously had faith in me. And it’s and asked me if I would direct her piece. And I was like, Are you kidding me up? Yes, it’s everything that I care about. And honestly, it’s it’s it was a combination of two people who gave me a shot. Nina Lee Aquino is my mentor and someone who is so, so about giving people real shots. And in this industry, it’s so important, very few people do it, it’s feel very closed. And people have to jump through a lot of hoops in order to feel like they deserve the shot to direct and Nina just demystify that space that has such this. There’s a hierarchy that’s associated with it. It’s like you can’t be a director until you know, some like vague knowledge about Russia in like, a specific time and then you understand what it means to be a director. And so as she killed it, she killed all of that sort of pretence. And so I was allowed to step into the space with competence from both Nina and Rachel. So it’s been it’s been an incredible Avenue and an incredible opportunity to get to stretch myself in a really safe and encouraging space.

Rachel Mutombo
Yeah. And I think it’s, it’s such a, it’s funny, like when we think about how we started this and how we got to this moment about Yeah, working on this show, because when this first started, like, when we were doing school girls, we were both just actor. Yeah. Yeah. Like literally like, a, you know, I made that comment that I don’t actually remember saying that. But it’s funny. No, no, that said it, because you said it in another. Someone else who was in the cast also reminded me that yeah, that’s all I know that it’s true. But really, and truly, at the time, I was just an act. I was just pursuing that. And you were to Yeah. And then we both ended up at factory at the same time doing this. You know, I like to think that, you know, Nina had, she did, she had a plan the whole time. But yeah, she absolutely. I wrote Nina this email at the end of 2019. And I was like, hey, that. And that happened, because Jeff Hall is a wonderful friend of mine. And I feel like, kind of like my guardian angel when it comes to playwriting. And he was somebody who, when I was acting in a play, because he was like, if you ever write like, send me stuff, let’s talk about it. Like, he was really, really encouraging of me to get started with writing. So when I told him, I have some ideas for places, like let’s go for lunch, or dinner, or whatever it was, we’re having a meal we’re talking about, and I told him, my idea about Viagra. And he told me, he’s like, I think you should reach out to Nina. And I was like, okay, so I went home, and I wrote me into this email. And I was like, I have this idea for a play. I don’t know, like, could there be a spot for me in the foundry? Like, I don’t know how it works, whatever. And then Nina is like, Let’s go for a coffee. And we talked about it. And then yeah, I got into the foundry, not knowing that Natasha was going to be Yeah. And then we did that first workshop together. And I said to the Tasha, I was, like, I don’t know what the future of this play is going to be. But I want you to direct that’s a given for me that the premiere of this play, be in your hands, I just knew that there was nobody else I said to today, there’s nobody else that I can think of in this world was better suited to direct this by the new suite. So I’m very grateful. So my,

Phil Rickaby
it’s interesting, the how, like, you know, just reaching out and sending an email or like asking, asking, for, you know, to be considered to ask questions to sit down with coffee, that sort of thing. How, how terrifying that is, but also how giving some people are the like, you just have to ask, and they will they give you time, give you space give you you know, sometimes the steps that you need to get where you need to go.

Natasha Mumba
Yeah, I mean, I don’t want this. This feels like a praise Nina moment. But honestly, I mean, she is the thing that I really respect about her. She’s now at the NAC. She’s the artistic director there in Ottawa. And she is the kind of person who invests in individuals, she invests in artists, so she invested in me as an as an actor. And then she said, What, then I told her, I was interested in something else. And she said, Talk to me about that. So it’s not it doesn’t feel transactional, like oh, you have a piece there’s a black woman to the piece. Great. Let’s do this. And then you’re like, great, thanks for the show. And the revenue which you are the best. But it’s, you know, like it’s a relationship and she invests in you as a creative artist. Yeah. And sees things in people too, and I did not directing was not on my radar. And she was like, your director, and if that’s something that you’re excited or interested in, I can give you the space to explore that. And I assistant director and her in lady sunrise that was produced here at Factory and then I was like, Oh, I really like this.

Rachel Mutombo
Yeah, you’re good at it. I see it all the time like it when Tasha is like working with the actress in the room. Oh my gosh, like I should have been in this show. I have a small regret not asking for a bar. But

Phil Rickaby
Natasha, you know, you were saying that Nina saw something in you when she suggested that you would that you were a director? Yeah. What was your reaction to that? Did that feel right? Or did you fight it? Like what was it? You know what

Natasha Mumba
I mean back to that pretence thing? I think that I was scared. I was scared about what all of that would mean, like, Would I be able to speak in front of people like, and get it together and move through? Yeah, like, I think I just had to fight. The initial fear was about feeling like an imposter. And then I was in process with her. And that really was the gift. So I had to make a choice between doing acting and doing this apprentice artistic position. And it’s crazy, because I chose it right before the pandemic and all the gigs I would have done anyway, we’re gonna be blind. And so it wasn’t actually perfect. It was quite, and there was just something in my spirit that was telling me I was like, You should, this is the turn that you need to take, like, add this on. And this opportunity was unique and special to sit under Nina who’s just such a great mentor. And so I yeah, I was terrified. But like I said, through seeing how she did it, and I think the biggest thing that she gave me, which is like, you have to be yourself, you have to be yourself in the room. And she was like, for me when I feel like I am pretending to be something else it is when I do the the worst work, the best work, when I can laugh, I can be goofy, I can be myself. And then there is a sort of not agility, but there’s a sort of strength in that. And it makes I’m finding I’m very much myself in the room, Rachel. Because I also think that the process of creating art also has a pretension to it, you know what I mean? Like, there’s like, Okay, we’re gonna get in the room, and we’re going to talk about the work, we’re gonna get into the details. And it’s like you can, you can achieve greatness with kindness, you can achieve greatness with patients you can, like, you can still be efficient, you can still get things done with joy, with kindness, with with humour. And so for me, people taking time out of their lives, to create art with me is such a privilege. It’s theatre, so we’re not, you know, getting paid millions. We’re here because we love it. So if we’re gonna spend, like quality lifetime together to create something, let’s find joy in it. Let’s find the reason why we’re getting up in the morning to come and do this thing. And so it’s it’s that’s a testament of Nina’s mentorship. And I’m very grateful for that, huh?

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, I was having a conversation just just the other day about how theatre school was like an exercise in fear for me and a number of people that I went to school with, because we were late. I was fine. Back when I was in school, they cut people, they cut people every semester. Oh, my gosh, a lot. This is an ancient times in law schools don’t do it, but some still do. And it was everything was fine until that first Christmas break, when a bunch of people got cut, got cut. And then after that point, it was like fear all the way through. And you can’t make good art. Oh, yeah. In fear. And so I think and I think it’s some people in their directing lives in their professional lives. They operate in fear and with fear, and they inflict that. And so to hear you describe the kind of rehearsal hall that that you’re creating, Natasha, it sounds like a very beautiful place. And we’re a place where good art is, is fostered and can flourish. Yeah,

Rachel Mutombo
I hope so. I hope so.

Natasha Mumba
I always say, you know, arts, obviously, artists objective, but the process can be good. Like, to me, that’s the thing that I can control is how we create. And so and if I leave the room, and I feel good, and everyone feels good about themselves, and we leave and I’m like, yeah, the show was like, I mean, I want the show to be great, obviously.

Rachel Mutombo
I mean, it’s gonna be great. It’s gonna be great. Yeah.

Natasha Mumba
But I want people to look back and be like, Oh, that was a great time we had together remember when we created that. That

Rachel Mutombo
was like school girls. Yeah. Like, like we came in to rehearsal every day, all of us. And we were like, how was this art?

Natasha Mumba
Yeah, we also have we worked we got

Rachel Mutombo
being like, is the show ready? Just been like, we were laughing every day. And the show obviously happened. And it was great. Yeah. So yeah.

Phil Rickaby
Rachel, you mentioned that you were in rehearsals for the main girl show. And that you you just sort of announced and you don’t remember this, but you announced you were going to be a writer. Not remembering that but having done it do you? What is your recollection of the decision to start writing and why you felt called to write

Rachel Mutombo
it so it’s funny, like when I hear that memory? I’m like, Yeah, that sounds like me like I’m that person who makes a decision in a moment and I’m like, I’m gonna do this thing. And then I’m like, I’m a bit hard headed about things. So like, once I’ve started it, and I’ve said it, I’m gonna do it and I follow through. But the first thing I felt was that, oh my God, I don’t know how to write plays. I had written things before I’ve written articles I’ve written, you know, little short stories for myself, you know, I’ve written but I’d never written a play. And I was like, I don’t know how to do that. So the first thing I did was find every single playwrights unit under the sun that was available to me in Toronto and and I applied to did I and I really did, I did the one at Nightwood. I ended up eventually being at the one that obsidian I didn’t want the factory, I may be forgetting other ones, just part of her face pop up on my Instagram, playwriting unit playwriting, right. So, studio one ad shots to do when I’m talking, I’ve done like almost all the ones that were in Toronto that season right before COVID. I was in there playwrights, or during the pandemic, and it was my way of like, going to school to be a playwright. Because I was like, I don’t know how to do this. What I learned in the process of writing plays, though, however, is that being an actor, and being a performer, inherently kind of informed how I would write plays, the biggest comment that I get from people when they read my plays, is that my characters are clear, and that they have intention. And I think it’s because having been a performer for so many years, that the thing we crave as actors is to have an objective, my gosh, you know, if your characters don’t have an objective, you’re like, what is happening with this person, you know, and so, immediately when I go into plays, it starts from a character’s perspective. And that’s the journey that I’m on. And then I make sure that they have objectives. And their arcs are clear. And as I started doing it, I just, I loved it. It was fun. It was exciting. And, and the thing, even before I wanted to replace, something that I really loved was being an actor in workshops. I loved being an actor in workshop, I loved watching playwrights change things on the spot, I loved being in the presence of a room that just felt so alive and thinking about the fact that this, this script in my hands didn’t exist at some point in this was blank pages on someone’s laptop with that blinking cursor that was probably stressing them out. And now it’s this tangible thing that I’m holding, and I get the privilege to say these words out loud and bring these people to life. And, to me, there’s something so amazing about new work, you know, like, No offence to like Shakespeare and whatever. But baseline. Yeah, you know, this piece has been dead for 100 years, it’s fine. There isn’t. It doesn’t as much as I may love, like classical text, whatever, it doesn’t do the same for me as new plays. And so I think that when I started to do it, I was like, Oh, the, you know, like, there’s something here. Yeah. And I also, but I also think that that excitement comes from

Natasha Mumba
this understanding that there was the new branch of storytelling happening and a new space that’s being pulled out of the world. Absolutely. So I feel like we’ve been listening, especially we both went to the National Theatre School and canon of work is very white. And it’s very European, and even the Canadian pieces outside. I mean, I’m not to go back to Nina. But I met Nina, my first year at NTS. And she was the only reason why I knew of any other people like Canadian playwrights of colour. And so when, for me, the reason why this play moved me for many reasons, but one of the main reasons was this, this, it, like, opened up this world that no one really sees, but that I know, I know, so many people know that world. But I was like, Oh, my God, look, now we can look at it, assess it, talk about it. And this art has been created. And it feels like the beginning of something new, like it feels like a generation, especially for African storytelling. It’s just so exciting, to see the nuances and this and now that we’ve been given space to do so and resources to do so. And leaders of colour who are giving us space to do so. And so it’s it’s great. The work is moving forward that’s allowing people to create more work like this, and I’m so excited. I’m so excited to see it. Yeah, me too. Yeah. And also the vastness of the storytelling. I mean, it’s it, it’s, I talk about it a lot. But black experiences, especially African immigrant experiences, and Canada represents so many different types of black communities, and different black stories. And for me, what I love about the show is that it’s a comedy. And it’s also about the black community, specifically the Congolese community. And well let’s say let’s say African community, so I can throw myself in accountability to themselves and to the parents, like I was talking about, like, with its young people skiing more of their elders in a space where we were raised to sort of be submissive to our parents, especially to our fathers. And so this play get gives us a chance to break out of that tradition and say, okay, This, we this is what we need to address, we have to address this issue. And so it’s exciting to be in a play where a white antagonist is not surrounding us. And we are fighting that, which is a valid battle. And oh, my god is a forever battle. And it’s a necessary story, but I’m excited about vast, the vast, like, there’s so many more stories that represent the black community. And so I’m excited for the world. And you know, what, excited for the world to see?

Rachel Mutombo
Well, you know, I had, um, when I did the playwrights unit at Nightwood, part of the right from the hip programme, part of the end of that programme was that you got to have an interview with, I think, at the time they were saying any playwright, you know, alive in the world, and that they would try their best to get in touch with that person. So I ended up choosing Jocelyn Bo, who wrote schoolgirls that we were in, because I just really want to talk to her. And something that she said about that play about school girls was that school girls is about the proximity to whiteness, it’s about white supremacy without ever having a white person on stage. Yeah. And that’s, I feel like what you’re talking about, yeah, we can talk about these things. Because they exist. That’s the world that we live in. That’s the system we live in, and that we navigate and we have to survive in. Yeah, but you don’t actually have to put it on stage in that way. Yeah, you know, and it was something and, you know, it’s this play the ash is about are so many things. And one can say it’s about the patriarchy and the way that, you know, men in household and African households how men have the first word and the last word, you know, what, there are no men on stage. And this, this is a cast of, for women, you know. And they navigate that system, despite the fact that there is no male actor or character on the stage with, you know, but doesn’t mean their presence, isn’t there. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, just I mean, just like, just like, you know, the men, the idea of of men being there, like you’re saying is felt in the same way that the white supremacist culture is felt? Even without having a white person on stage? Like you guys were mentioning? Yeah, absolutely. You guys were talking about about, you know, being at NTS and how, how white it was. And also, I think that that’s, that’s, that’s not a unique experience in theatre schools across Canada, especially, you know, when I was in school, it would be unheard of, like we did not see, I think we had two people of colour in my entire class of 30, starting in first year. And the idea of, of our, the theatre education being so white, it’s a blind spot. That is that exists, because, one, most people at the top of those schools are white, and they don’t see what they don’t see. Because they don’t want to and then they’re not challenged. And often, they don’t welcome the challenging. And so I was like, you have to, there’s the, the the process of asking permission to see playwrights of colour to see directors of colour and that sort of thing. Which is, is it is not it’s not the world that I see that we see outside our doors. Yeah. Which is what theatre should should should reflect it should reflect the world outside our doors and not Shakespeare who my favourite quote of the seven years I’ve been doing this, this podcast is Shakespeare. He’s gonna be okay. He’s gonna be he’s gonna be all right. Like, that’s my favourite quote, yeah, of seven years. But we there’s so much more than just than just that. And yet, that’s what is studied so often at our theatre schools.

Natasha Mumba
Well, it’s an it’s an inherited gatekeeping. Like, it’s, it’s, you know, I think you made a really good point, there is a choice that see it. It’s sort of like when everything came forward during the pandemic with the murders. And I feel like they’re there. It was amazing to me how many people were unaware of the oppression of people of colour. And I remember when I was in theatre school, I was in the time where it was like, black people always make things about race. And I remember actually being beaten down so much with that statement that I was like, You know what, you’re right. Like, it’s not always about race. And then when everything happened during the pandemic, I was like, wow, I really got silence. I really was told to shut up. Um, and and but I think what surprised me the most is just people’s either how unaware they were of it, but, but I think to your point about what you’re saying about people in theatre institutions who are living in these predominantly white spaces, some people choose not to see it, but some people unconsciously want to hold on. Traditions be because they feel like if they let go of that, what will they have? And and how do what is that going to look like? And I think it scares them more than it excites them. Yeah. And because of that we get stuck in these battles or like, I guess we have to do check off for, like contemporary pieces. Okay. Yeah,

Phil Rickaby
that kind of thing makes them important. Right, like it makes. They are important because they enforced this, this particular white blindness to like, they think they’re doing diverse pieces. But that had some white women in it. So they’re, we’ve made our, our diversity. Yeah, for this piece, right. So it’s like, they’re enforcing their own power by keeping that going? And maybe they don’t realise it? Or maybe they do. But like you said, Yeah, afraid of the change.

Natasha Mumba
And I think it’s just about being creatively interested. And if you’re not creatively interested in taking a step aside, because I think there is something about AI people feel it. People I will speak generally, for people of colour, I speak for myself, like, I feel it when I walk into a room. And a white leader in the space is excited and curious about what what my role is in, in this production, right. And also sees me as a black person, not me just playing a neutral white character. But that excitement is felt and and for me, that’s the thing that I wish i i saw more of, and a lot of what I see is fear. A lot of people are afraid to make mistakes. A lot of people are afraid to do the wrong thing. A lot of people don’t have enough people of colour in their life to lean on and ask questions. So they’re just asking, and they’re like, Oh, God,

Rachel Mutombo
I don’t want to be cancelled. And

Natasha Mumba
I hope that time comes where people do if there is genuine interest, and I really do feel it in my life, when I meet people who are using me because I’m black, or they’re interested creatively in doing something, and they want me to collaborate them in like conversation. I can feel it. And I think that, that it’s so it’s exciting when there is creative interest. Yeah, absolutely. And that’s also I’m really sorry to bring back Nina. But it’s her creative interest in different communities. And when she came to factor, she didn’t just do Filipino shows. Like she was hosting many different people that communities that she’s not from, but her creative interest in these communities is what fueled her desire to see more of it. So I think sometimes the white community forgets that we’re all not the same. It’s not them. And then, and then all of us and we all understand each other and we get each other’s culture. I step into spaces where I’m like, I have no idea anything about this culture. But I’m curious. I chose to be in this room. So what’s up? Like, what’s this about? opposed to? Yeah, I just think, yeah, I just feel like the differences. Oh, yeah.

Phil Rickaby
First off, I will say we will not be apologising at any point for bringing up Nina. There’s no apology necessary.

Natasha Mumba
I’m just gonna message her and be like, so there’s a love letter to you.

Phil Rickaby
Do you want a love letter to Nina? And that’s fine, because she deserves it for the work that she’s done. Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know that I think you know, what you’re saying about people being a white people being afraid to fuck up and it’s like, you don’t learn anything. If you don’t fuck up. You have to fuck up. You have to make mistakes. And you have to be willing to go to fuck up be told that you fucked up and say, Yeah, you’re right. I did. I’m sorry about that. Let’s move on. Let’s like I won’t do that again. This is the change I’m making. Yeah, instead of making a big deal out of it, but actually never changing.

Natasha Mumba
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Cuz I mean, the truth of the matter is, at least for myself, I’m not interested in rallying and getting mad at people. I’m tired of being I’m so tired. So you messed up. But your heart’s in the right place and you want to keep learning let’s do it. Let’s do it. My

Phil Rickaby
god. Yeah. Now interestingly, I’ve noticed as you were telling me your stories of transformation, how you both went from being actors to being a director to being an actor, sorry, an actress director to being a an actor, writer. I noticed the timeframe around all of this that you were mentioning, you were doing the African mean, girls play in 2019. And we all know what happened 2020

Natasha Mumba
Don’t wait. well diversified, I guess.

Phil Rickaby
We all had to but I find it interesting that your transformation, your your trans transition, your Transubstantiation occurred during this time when there was a flux and uncertainty and all of these things going on. Plus the Black Lives Matter movement, plus the like, all of these reactions, all of the promises from theatre companies that we’ll see what’s happening with those. As time goes on, and by standing by, we’re still standing by one of these days. One of these days, I’m going to do a whole episode where I just like, look back at June of 2020 and say who made promises? Oh,

Rachel Mutombo
that’s the thing, though. I do that quite often. Oh, I checked the black square and backing it up and who’s not? Yeah,

Phil Rickaby
yeah. And of course, it’s like they’re just hoping that you just kind of forget about it, but it’s there. They’re absolutely. Where it was like going with your transformations during during the pandemic too. Did you find that the time because theatres were mostly shut down doing a few things here and there trying to figure things out? Did that time help you to to manage the transition? Or was it just was that going to happen anyway? Do you think?

Rachel Mutombo
I think for me, it was actually the game changer. For my playwriting career. I, I had so much right before, like everything shut down on March 13, or whatever. So I 20 I was living in Toronto. I was in two playwrights units. At the same time, I was filming a television show in Montreal. And I was working at Joe draw. I was exhausted. I was, I was like, what is it burning the candle at both ends, or whatever is the expression, I was exhausted. I was like, I can’t do this. And I remember saying to my coworker, one day, I had just gotten I just Salone in from Montreal that morning and went straight to work. And I looked at my coworker, I was like, I just need like two weeks off. I just need two weeks off, to just get my bearings, get some writing done. I just I want to be able to jump into this more. I just don’t have time. And then the universe gave me so much time. You know, I didn’t know what was coming. I was like, literally when it happened. I was like, Oh, look at that I get a break. But you know, I got like, fired from my job. I had a bunch of contracts and things went, you know, poorly. But I told myself, I was like, You know what silver lining I have time to write. I wrote the first draft of yeah, in from between, like, I finished it like June of 2012. I then wrote, like three other plays before the end of that year, I think. And then since then, I had so much momentum as a playwright, because I had, I really had the luxury of time, this thing that I had not had before, because I was really like, hustle, hustle, hustle, go, go go. And all of a sudden, I was like, Whoa, I can breathe, I can think and and I told myself, I was like, I don’t know, when this pandemic thing is going to end I thought maybe it’d be six months or so. So I was like, you know, at the end of the six months, I want to come out of this and say I did this thing that everyone kept saying about like, what was it that Shakespeare wrote Lear during the plague or whatever, you know, I don’t know if this is my lair. It might be, you know, come to the show, find out but but I definitely had that thinking. And this is you know, I’m a perfectionist by nature, it was not great. But I literally came out of a going I have to finish something during this pandemic. And so I have something to prove what I did was all this time off that I had. So for me, I had so much momentum in the pandemic. I can’t believe that I wrote as many plays as I did. It’s a little crazy. Once they’re all on stage, I’m probably going to retire from playwriting.

Natasha Mumba
I did it I did it.

Rachel Mutombo
But yeah, I don’t know if I would have had as much time I don’t know if it plays would exist if that hadn’t happened, which is crazy. I don’t want to say I’m grateful for it. But I’m it was useful. i Yeah, it the time was useful for me. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
Natasha, how about you?

Natasha Mumba
Wow, it was just a time of diversification film. Oh my god. Yeah. So I What did I do? I was in the apprentice programme here at factory so I was studying to be an artistic director. And then I had already known at that point that I was really digging directing. So and I was like, It’s not time for a district direction yet yet. I’m not ready for marriage. That’s what I call it quits just it’s a real commitment. And I was like, I just feel like I’m gonna flex I want to go out and I want to you know, try things out with people. I want to see other people before I commit to this marriage. So then I I started writing myself, I wrote my first play. I did not write 15 plays like Rachel did. One nearly killed me. It was like, um, yeah, so I did that. And then I got into dramaturgy, which is which I feel it’s all kind of connected. dramaturgy, playwriting and directing ever like it’s all just in the bag and it all informs each other and I think what each one makes each one stronger. I think my dramaturgy makes my directing strong. And my acting also makes my dramaturgy strong, and it’s just it’s great. So I really dig living in this world. And then I got into film and TV too, which has been great, which is a new love. I don’t know why it’s a metaphor relationships here, but it’s a new person that I started seeing which is kind of exciting. And I fell in love with camera camera. I did not see that coming. It was sort of just the thing, the thing to do lols it’s not an easy industry to break into at all. Like, I’m very grateful. I did and when I got into it I And I was amazed by how much it spoke to me and I really got into the world. So that was great. It was nice to have that. Because film was sorry. Theatre was gone. Yeah. So and film was essential, like it became essential so we could shoot. And so my agent who brought me to my agency, he’s the film agent. And he was like, this is perfect. So now, Peters gone. Sorry, theatre is gone. So now it’s just you and I. And I was like, Great, let’s do it. Yeah. And so I got into that. And I’ve been able to do that and continue doing that, which has been really, really great.

Phil Rickaby
It sounds like you both had a at least for some of the pandemic, especially Rachel, there’s really a flourishing time of creativity. I’m a little jealous. I spent the first two weeks certainly we were only going to be shut down for two weeks, and we’re going to beat this thing. Yeah. And then I spent the next six months setting guests, six weeks Doom scrolling, unable to actually do anything thought of doing something creative was just like, yeah, too, too much. But, and I think there were two different ways of seeing because you can really fall into social media, and be like, everything is terrible, and just sort of like, just keep going like that. Or you can put the phone down, and like, concentrate on something beautiful. And it sounds like Like, like, that’s what happened here, which

Natasha Mumba
was a rough time to be human. Yeah, it’s not our shining moment as human as humanity. We failed terribly.

Rachel Mutombo
But you know, not to bring it back to Nina again, but at the time, the boundary so like it was I think it must have been like, early March, we had our last boundary meeting like so. Yeah, me and the other playwrights were still in the building. And Nina was like, you know, I think this COVID thing or what was it Coronavirus was what we’re calling Yeah, I’m Coronavirus. I think it might be getting serious. So she was like, maybe next week or for our next session, we’ll do it online. But we’ll see. We’ll play by ear and whatever. So obviously, we all know what happened on second day, let’s factor in everyone was out of the building and whatnot. Um, and so Nina emailed us and she was like, let’s take a little bit of time for all of us to like, you know, get our bearings and reset while these things are happening. And we will check in, I think, probably end of March or something. And then eventually me that said, listen, we’re still doing this thing. We’re gonna do it virtually instead. Oh, yeah, we’re gonna keep going. And it was that that’s what kept me writing because I think it’s Nina had said, oh, sorry, guys, we’re just gonna call it quits, you know, like, you know, maybe next season for your place, or whatever, maybe wouldn’t have finished yet. But she was like, Nope, we’re gonna keep going. But the thing is, she led with such grace in that time, like, I remember, there was one session, I was supposed to be there, we’re supposed to read my play, and something had happened due to the pandemic in my life. And I called me and I was like, I can’t do this. She was like, you know, take your time. It’s already like, we will be here, and it’s not a problem. And so I also felt really supported in my creation of my work. It wasn’t like, I had to be as productive as I, as I was being prior to the pandemic, like, go, go, go, it wasn’t that. But she offered me a space and a way to keep going. And to have some balance in my life, because I had nothing to do all that, like, you know, there was a quite a bit of like, you know, drinking Rosae and living my best night that was happening at the beginning of Yeah. And, you know, like, at the independent MC, I was, like, cool, it’s a braid, like, let me have this rose and chill, you know, so it allowed me to have some structure to my days. It allowed me to, to be back in that creative space with my other members of the foundry, who are my friends, we were doing commiserating with and figuring out all this stuff with and it was just like this, it felt like we were still in the theatre, kind of, you know, but yet, it was at that time that I had actually moved back to Montreal, so I wasn’t even in Toronto anymore. But I still felt really connected. And so it was so important, because I think that’s how I got to the finish line with that first draft. And that’s what ultimately gave me the inspiration and the end the confidence really, to feel like I can keep doing this. I wrote this play. And it’s, you know, it’s not too shabby. So, you know, I can show you more. But I mean, that’s so funny that that first draft, like I really thought that I was done writing. Like, I thought, Yes, I thought I wrote that first draft. And I was like, great. Where’s my where’s my Governor General’s Award? I thought it was and now 13 drafts later.

Phil Rickaby
Okay, great. Question. Important question. How long did it take for you to have finished that first draft? I think that it that was it, you’re done. Where’s your Governor General’s Award? To be a have that that that thought like, taken away to realise there’s more to do?

Rachel Mutombo
I? Oh, so we would have. So we finished I finished writing. I think it was June of 2020. So then, I had a meeting with Nina and Matt, I think like, August the 2020. And they asked me if I wanted to do to be in residence at Factory. And I was like, okay, and when I started the residency, I was like, What’s Matt gonna say? Like, what notes is he gonna go? Well? No. Oh, you know, I was like, Okay, I’ll

Natasha Mumba
honestly I remember when I read the draft, I was like, I have no no. Why was up? Well, I was like, strong. Yeah.

Rachel Mutombo
wasn’t strong it was other place. It was a very strong first draft. Yeah. But it wasn’t not where it needed to be. So that said, I think it was like maybe halfway through the residency that I was like, Oh, my God, there was so much more to mind to figure out to get specific about to make sure that it’s tight. And the whole time that I was in the residency, I also didn’t know that I was going to go into production eventually. So it was really just like trying to make the play better. I wasn’t concerned about it being on stage. But I think like, less than a year, but, you know, it was quite some months. There was quite some months where, but I didn’t know what I was doing. Like I missed that naivete that I had when I was first reading that I do, because I didn’t know what I was doing yet. And it was all just like, there was no pressure to it. It was like I was free to be creative and to explore. And like getting notes from Matt was so fun. dramaturgical notes. Were so fun for me. Yes. I was like, Okay, I’m gonna make it better. Like I was like a kid. Like right now.

Natasha Mumba
We’re like your drafts, we need to be ready.

Rachel Mutombo
Now, people are sending emails and like, Rachel, when we’re Starcraft.

Phil Rickaby
It’s amazing what you can do when you don’t know you don’t know. Exactly. Yeah. And one of the things that I love to hear the stories that I love to hear from from performers, from people in theatre, are their origin stories, like, what is it? That that started you on the path? To theatre? What, what, what, what started that journey to where you are now? So I’m curious for you guys. What, for each of you, what was the thing that made you interested in theatre? And how did that turn into I’m going to do this.

Natasha Mumba
I feel like my father would want me to say my grandfather used to be a performer. I mean, my dad always says a story to me about how my grandfather was known in his community to be like the theatrical one. And he’s like, you make sense to me now. But the origin of my eye, you know, it’s a good question. I don’t really know. When I decided I remember there was I was in a boarding school in Zambia in this town called masa Buka. And it’s my little boarding school was nestled inside a sugarcane plantation. And we, there were there was this play that they put on Peter Pan, as if no one’s have heard him. No one’s ever heard of it. They’re playing a metre band. I played I don’t know if anybody knows Wendy. Yeah, I played Wendy. And I just remember doing it and really having a good time. And kind of thinking nothing of it. And then one of the teachers there told my mom, she was like, she seems to like really enjoy this. And I think she’s actually pretty good at it. Like, just keep an eye on that. And my mom was always very good about that. So she would put me in like, artistic spaces. And we thought maybe it was a musical instrument. It was not, it was definitely not the flute. And then I came back to acting, I joined an improv troupe when I was in high school in Texas, and, and the rest of it just it kept rolling along. Wow. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
And, and just just, it’s one thing to be a child into into think this is fun. It’s another thing to make the decision. You’ve that, you know, I’m going to do this, I’m going to I’m going to go to school, and this is going to be my career. I what point did you make that decision?

Natasha Mumba
You know, it’s kind of similar to Rachael not remembering the story about her on stage. There’s a moment that my mom reminds me of constantly, which is kind of the anchor of my career, like my career is, I remember, she remembers we were in the kitchen in our house in Dallas. And she felt her spirit say, asked Natasha, what she wants to do, and whatever it is support her. And she asked me what I wanted to do. And I was like, I think I want to be an actor. And she was like, Ah, crap. And ever since she has never looked back, she has sort of been the guiding light for me to keep going. And that conversation has been an anchor for me. And so I feel like I’m in purpose. I feel like I’m doing what I was created to do. And I feel like it’s the beginning of many more expressions of my artistic expression. It feels like there was more coming and so I just feel aligned. I feel like you know, it helps that the woman who birthed me also feels that way. But it does, it brings me joy. I love people. I love storytelling. I love I really was thinking about this as I was watching Wakanda forever. Like, I am so excited to be a black woman right now. It’s just incredible to have even when I auditioned for film and TV, I know that there was a time before where black women are not getting interesting parts and I think about like the Viola Davis says and the Lupita neurone goes into deny careers and people who are just making ways for us, and we’re getting stuff that’s just meaningful and, and so it’s just exciting to also see them starting to get their flowers and their space. And I And for me, that’s what like watching that movie was for me. I was like, Look at this time, like, what a beautiful time to be an African woman. And and a black. Yeah, black creator. Yeah.

Rachel Mutombo
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Um, my origin story is not as lovely. It’s really, so my father was a judge, and the lawyer was a lawyer first and then a judge. And then my family emigrated to Canada, he works as well in the law. And when my brothers went to law school, and I just like I had come from a family of like, lawyers, and like, people who are working for government and this sort of thing, which is all very lovely. And a, I think they would have much preferred that I either had gone to law school, or you know, to medical school, or, you know, whatever, something with consistent money, probably. But I I, when I was in high school, so I went to high school in Quebec. And I also have an early birthday. So I graduated high school, I was 16. Which is very Oh, yes, you’re young to make a decision about your life. And so, yeah, so when I was in my last years of high school, I was in physics, I was in chemistry, and I was like, my dad was like, you have to take these classes. Because if you choose to become a doctor someday, fingers crossed, you’ll have you already have taken your high school chemistry and physics. But when I had started my last year of high school, I was like, sitting there, and it was like, I was not understanding anything, you might as well have been speaking, like, Italian to you. And I mean, I was I don’t understand these numbers. It’s not making sense. It’s not connecting. Yeah. And I just kept thinking to myself, like, I have to choose what I’m going to go do and Stasia wishes in Quebec before University, I’m gonna have to choose what I’m doing Stasia. And I have to do that for the rest of my life. And I just knew that or whatever it was, I wanted to be happy. And so I ended up switching and going into my high school had this thing called actor studio. And it was like an acting programme, like a small acting programme you can do in school, and I switched, I dropped my chemistry, I dropped my physics and I went into Actor’s Studio. But because I was coming into it in my last year of high school, of course, you know, there are no good parts for me. Other kids would have been there for years fighting. Yeah, they’re a part they got their parts. They earned them. Well, the first show I ever did, was with Peter Pan. No. No, it was the witches by Roald Dahl. Oh, yes. And I played the narrator. And no one from my high school remembers that I was in that play. But it is the play that changed my life. Wow, no, I remember being in that play. I just remember being on stage and feeling like, well, this is what I want to do. Feeling that sense of being onstage and people are listening to you, and you have their attention. And what you say and do can have people laughing and cry. I just was like, This is it. This is what I want to do. So I applied to Sage up to for the acting programme that they had at John Abbott college. And that was my moment, you know, and, you know, my parents cried about it, and I fight more and they mourn the loss of their loyal daughter. Yeah. doctor, lawyer, engineer

Natasha Mumba
and your daughter. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
It’s amazing how you’re going to do all three of those things. Yeah,

Rachel Mutombo
exactly. Exactly. And then, you know, eventually I ended up so I did that programme and eventually ended up going to NCS, but the year that I went to NCS, I also applied to law school. And I got in like, yeah, with a scholarship. I got Yeah. And I remember I said to my dad, I was like, Okay, if I go to law school, you pay for it. And he’s like, What? No, and I was like, oh, that’s fine. I’m going back to school. Get a student loan, it’s going to be for what I want. Yeah. You know, I said earlier that I’m stubborn, like, I definitely am stubborn. I’m hard headed. And the thing is, because my parents weren’t super enthusiastic about me going into the arts. I was like, I have to make it worthwhile. Like this has to be I have to be so good and so successful. Excellent. Whatever it is. So my parents go, Oh, okay. Wow, this is what she’s meant to do. You know? Yeah. And they have definitely come around. But it was a journey. Now, when an alternate universe.

Phil Rickaby
In somewhere in the multiverse, your father said, Yes, I will pay for that. And that universe, did you then go willy, you’re also would you also pay for theatre schools?

Rachel Mutombo
Have done would you have gone? Yeah, would have gone to law school. Wow.

Phil Rickaby
Do you think you would have become a lawyer or would you would you think that like, your heart wouldn’t have been in it the way it would have been for theatre? I think

Rachel Mutombo
I would have come back around to the theatre eventually a good brain for a lawyer. I do. You and I argument I do you have a lot in this place. I do. There is this part of me that is like I, you know, I was meant to be a lawyer on some level. I think about it. I’m like, I would have been miserable at some point, but I would have been wealthy. So I don’t know, maybe that would have valid, but

Natasha Mumba
it’s true. And also the theatrics of you know, yeah, being in the courtroom. Yeah, for sure. Getting the audience’s attention that way. It’s very similar. And then also, like, I feel like you can make it social. You know, I get it to those cases that really matter. Yeah, maybe it should have been.

Rachel Mutombo
It worked out a lot. Remember? I was working at a law firm. I remember. So yes. So I worked at a law firm. And that’s when I mean, it wasn’t Toronto was a real estate law firm, you know, no shade to those people. They were very nice. But I was like, Yeah, this is not for me. I made the right choice and being an actor. It just makes me happier. Yeah, and I think if anything, the pandemic really, really convinced me that this is what I’m meant to do. It’s a thing that brings me joy. Like, when the world was confusing and dark. It was creativity. It was theatre that got me up out of bed every morning. It gave me something to do. It gave me purpose. You know, it’s like what Natasha said, like, I am aligned. I feel so aligned when I am working in the theatre when I’m working creatively. You know, whether that’s film or TV, honestly, or being on stage, like when we’re doing our thing, like, Yeah, I’m I guess what I’m meant to do. I was put on this. Yeah, even as kicking in this hall. Yeah. So we’re laughing at your play over and we, Natasha, and I laugh at these jokes in this. No one will be laughing in the audience. Right. So yeah, we will.

Natasha Mumba
Is that vanity we don’t know. Having a great time.

Phil Rickaby
I remember years ago, number of years ago, you know, being involved with this theatre company. We’re creating this show, we created film plays in the cell of silent film, and we thought they were hilarious. But then you would know that like, the first time you perform it, you’re like, we think this is funny, but we boy, yeah, we had nobody seen this outside of us yet. And there would be this, like, everybody holding our breath backstage until it was the first laugh and they’d be like, okay, okay, okay. We’re okay. But it’s verifying. Yeah.

Natasha Mumba
Yeah. You haven’t even got there in our mind. I was like, there will come a point. We’ll be backstage, but Well, we won’t. We won’t.

Rachel Mutombo
I know. We’re like, yep. When the show opens, we’re gone. Yeah,

Phil Rickaby
your work is done. Yeah.

Rachel Mutombo
Our job is over our jobs. Like we’re done. Last year.

Phil Rickaby
Well, Rachel, Natasha, thank you so much for joining me. This has been this conversation has been a lot of fun, and I really appreciate it.

Natasha Mumba
Thank you. Cool.

Rachel Mutombo
Thank you so much for having us. It’s been a treat. Yeah.

Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcasts, you can also leave a review. Those reviews and ratings help new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod and you can find the website but the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram PhilRickaby. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy