Matthew MacKenzie is a citizen of the Métis Nation of Alberta and proud father of Ivan (Eevan, Vanya, Vanichka). Artistic Director of Punctuate! Theatre, Matthew is also the founder and an Artistic Associate with Pyretic Productions, a founding member of the Pemmican Collective, as well as Canadian Liaison of the Liberian Dance Troupe. Matt’s plays include First Métis Man of Odesa, Bears, After the Fire and The Particulars.
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Details and Tickets for First Métis Man of Odesa: http://www.punctuatetheatre.com/first-mtis-man-of-odesa-202223
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Transcript
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Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby, and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years, but I’ve realized that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.
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Matthew McKenzie is the playwright behind the award winning and critically acclaimed bears. He joined me to talk about first Métis man of Odessa, which he wrote with his wife, award winning Ukrainian actress Mariya Khomutova. The play follows their COVID courtship and the impacts of the war in Ukraine. First Métis man of Odessa runs March 30 to April 8 at Toronto’s Theatre Centre and then moves to Edmondson Citadel theatre. And then finally Vancouver’s the culture. Here’s our conversation
so, Matthew, thanks for joining me. Would you give me your pitch for or tell me about the first Matey man of Odessa.
Matthew MacKenzie
And first Métis man of Odessa is a show that I’ve co written with my wife, Mariya Khomutova. And we also perform in the piece and it’s a true story about our our meeting are falling in love. And then our learning that we were pregnant with Masha and Ukraine and me and Canada. Then I had to sneak into Ukraine, where we were married. And then we came to Canada, where we had our son. And then following that we were just about to return to Ukraine to introduce our centre, his grandparents and Russia invaded Ukraine. So it’s, it’s a love story, but it talks about COVID but also the the personal effects that the war and Ukraine have had on one’s own money in our masters as a couple. Your long pitch
Phil Rickaby
not me, no, that’s good pitch it the one of the things that I you know, the arts bring people together and in so many fascinating ways. Um, how is it that you and Maria have encountered each other? Well, I
Matthew MacKenzie
was working with a Alberto playwright Lianna Makuch, who is an awesome colleague of mine, and she also was the director of our show. And we were in Ukraine workshopping a piece of hers called Barbarina. And Masha was hired as a as a Ukrainian actor who could also speak English. I had there weren’t a tonne of them then. And so we met through that we established a friendship corresponded for a year and then Masha ended up coming to visit Toronto. And that’s where kind of things sparked.
Phil Rickaby
So, how long I mean, was this, this was a long distance relationship. Did she go back to Ukraine after that, and you were sort of here? Did you go back and forth? What was that? What was that? What was the courtship like?
Matthew MacKenzie
Well, it was a really tight, tight timeline, which we yeah, we talked about in the show. We I had been in that initial trip where we weren’t together. Then she came to Toronto, and that’s where we got together and then I returned to work on another project with the ANA, run and play called The Lena. And on that trip, I was able to go with Marcia, we were together to meet her parents in Odessa. And then when we parted ways, two days after that the international travel ban went into effect and COVID swept the globe, so we never actually intended it. Even though it sounds strange, we’re living in different countries, he never intended to have a long distance relationship. And we wanted to sort of be in each other’s countries. But we ended up being apart for the better part of four months, before I was able to get back into Ukraine and get married and then arrestor returned to Canada to have our sent.
Phil Rickaby
That I mean, that sounds like like drama in itself. And then you have the situation of trying to want it to go and take your baby to meet the grandparents. And, and, and Russia invades Ukraine. Yes. And that’s that’s it. That’s that’s got to be hard both for you. You don’t want to visit the grandparents but also for Maria, who’s who’s whose family is in Ukraine?
Matthew MacKenzie
Yes, yes. It it was a real shock. You know, I think like a lot of Ukrainians. My, my, my Masha, who is Maria, just a diminutive of Masha Emery. And my like mother in law, Olga, we’re convinced that the that that Russia would not invade. So it was a real shock when that happened. And they were felt like everyone had deep sense of shock. And I had an incredible sense of betrayal, and then horror at what, what the, yeah, what the Russians were perpetrating on the Ukrainians. And so it took us a little bit of time to kind of talk my mother in law into getting out of Odessa. And but we managed to talk her into it just a couple of weeks ago, I guess, on March 6, was the one year anniversary of the time where we are able to get old guy out of Odessa and she’s been living with us ever since. And, and her and my son are inseparable. So
Phil Rickaby
I mean, that’s that’s got to be harder. First off. It’s not the first time I’ve heard of people desperately trying to convince their Ukrainian relatives and maybe to get out of of Ukraine. Yeah. Real Santorini of Yeah, of like, people who are like, this is my country. I’m going to stay here. Yes. And even even to the while the rest of the family is like, maybe come here for a little while. That must have been a dramatic like, how do you how do you first off, how do you get somebody out of Ukraine when there’s a war going on?
Matthew MacKenzie
Well, this has obviously been deeply affected by the war, but it hasn’t been hit. Like other cities, like, you know, hair salon or you bowl obviously, which has been like destroyed. And so Olga was able to get out with a friend of Maria’s who is leaving with her kids. So they drove out. They, you know, to the Moldovan border. And then once they were in Moldova, they were they were safe, but then, and so another friend of Matias took Olga in and just in Yao, which is the capital of Moldova, and then she made her way to Bucharest, where all the hotels were full, like Ukrainians like packing every, every nook and cranny. So there was just dozens of Ukrainians sleeping on yoga mats on the airport floor, they’re waiting to move on to other countries. And so, so we were very lucky that, that, you know, we had Matias friends, a whole network, who, who helped Olga along the way, and then Olga had actually visited Toronto in the summer before and so she had a visitor visa, she, she didn’t have to go through any process that a lot of folks did, although, I think that process also for a lot of folks was was very, and, you know, credit to the government. And it was just dealt with very quickly. And, and, and so she was able to get out once we got her out of Ukraine, and it was was pretty straightforward.
Phil Rickaby
Now, this whole thing is, you know, it’s a it’s a dramatic story, just in itself, but at what point did you and and, and, and Marcia, think this could make a play? Well,
Matthew MacKenzie
you know, we’d actually, with lots of input from Marcia, I wrote a radio play, or audio player factory cedar that Nina Lee Aquino directed. And that was pre invasion. So that was sort of our COVID romance and getting to Canada and having our son and that’s sort of where the first half of this play ends. And then, of course, the invasion hits and that’s a whole other a whole other level. So we are already in the process of dramatising it if you will, but, but this definitely changed the tone of the piece, as you can imagine, and but we we still really wanted to keep that that magic that we found is Nina that It’s just sort of this. Yeah, this improbable love story full of a lot of laughs a lot of stress. But, you know, even with the war, we want to leave people with a lot of hope. And so far we’ve had four audiences so far and Cam looks really, really warm reception incredible lots of Ukrainians, Ukrainian Canadians and, and Ukrainian Ukrainians who actually, but the conflict and, and the response so far is, is incredibly, incredibly warm so and people don’t feel like they’ve been pounded over the head with a depressing, you know, war story. They they’re staying after and, and full of energy and wanting to talk about their experiences to getting out of Ukraine or Ukrainians that they know.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. In terms of the the original before the war, and and the adding in the start of the war as part of the story. How does how does the structure change? How does the play change? Or is it just like we’re doing we tell the story, and then the war happens? Like the good
Matthew MacKenzie
question. I was worried about that. I was like, Do we have a romantic comedy, and then it turns into a tragedy like that feels like a bit of a setup to the audience. But the thing that we kind of discovered roughly our own lives. And that work, they think pretty well, dramatically is that my mother in law coming and living with us for a years has been amazing, but it’s definitely been full of challenges, many of them kind of darkly comedic. And so kind of my relationship with my mother in law On the homefront. In some ways, I feel kind of counterweights, the stories that we’re hearing about Matias friends and family in Ukraine, Chris, she said, you know, friends go through remarkable things already. They could be their own movies easily. And so that that, yeah, my mother in law, Olga, kind of provide the antidote to Putin. In our play.
Phil Rickaby
It definitely necessary definitely necessary. Now, you are a citizen of the Matey nation of Alberta? Yes. One of the other things that the prairies have is a large population of Ukrainians. Yes. So as far as like, like coming at this as both a citizen of the maytee nation and coming from a place with such a large population of Ukrainians, how does that inform this play?
Matthew MacKenzie
Well, it’s really exciting. The first public read we did of this was in a little town called smoky Lake about an hour and a half from Edmonton. And I think most of the audience was Ukrainian, Canadian, indigenous or Ukrainian, indigenous. We’re meeting quite a few people who are who are Ukrainian and Matey, which is which is thrilling. Because, of course, that’s my son. And also my nephew, is he he self defines himself as Ukrainian. But, but yeah, it’s very, very, it’s very cool. I mean, I didn’t, I knew there were folks out there, but I didn’t realise they would all be coming. Like they are like, here in Kamloops too. And it means an enormous amount. Obviously, we want this, we want to show the personal side of the of what’s going on over there and tell our love story to everyone. But to like, you know, Ukrainian Canadians and indigenous folks here, and it’s it’s wonderful to feel that support. And there’s a long, long history of, you know, Ukrainians and indigenous people, especially in the, in the prairie provinces. And, and so, you know, it feels like a story that people can come together on and an experience together. And it doesn’t feel like it’s just about Ukraine, or, you know, it was really interesting to feel how much people were responding to the names of places that because I described in a in a poem that’s in the play, Masha coming during COVID and following the rivers that my my my people would have been paddling back in the day and using the Cree Cree name for these rivers and stuff and their sponsor people in smoky Lake and here in Kamloops is just really wonderful. Like they really really interested to hear about Ukraine, but they also love to hear about where they’re from and their own culture.
Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. People like to see themselves reflected in what’s on the state. Oh, yeah, generally Yeah, yeah, um, one of the things that I think is you know, especially in the prairies was such a we have connect Canada has a lot of Ukrainians. In it, you know, we were a melting pot here. We’re multicultural is a melting pot for us from all over the world. But we have large concentrations, especially in the prairies of Ukrainians, many of whom their journey to the prairies was begun with the whole demore the A self the self imposed famine. Yeah. In Ukraine. So this is this whole story of the war in Ukraine has got to resonate really heavily with, with with people who, whose roots go back to Russian aggression for one. Oh, yes.
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah, I mean, our director, her play Barbie Enoch is all about her grandmother fleeing the Soviets and the Nazis and kind of caught between them and them coming and making a life in Canada. But they lived through Hold’em Lauren, she and her grandmother last little brother. And so, so that, you know, it’s very interesting. I’m not Ukrainian, but having been a part of two projects, dramaturgic Lee, and now, obviously married to Ukrainian, just really learning the sort of history of, of the the many crimes that have been perpetrated against against Ukraine. And you can see, you can see why they’re fighting so hard not to fall into that rushing boot again.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. One of things I’m curious about is this is this is, I mean, this story that you’re telling is a sweeping story. That also sounds a little like a rom com. So what what could an audience expect seeing this? What does? What is the staging look like? How does what does an audience see when they’re seeing this play
Matthew MacKenzie
over to theatre artists telling your true story, and it’s, it’s awesome that our designer Daniela has, has created sort of a very similar to the Odessa Opera Theatre, and this incredible building people have maybe seen pictures of, it’s like, I think it’s an exact replica of the Vienna Opera House to most ornate building I’ve ever been in. But anyhow, so we’re sort of like on this on this stage of our lives. And, and it’s, it’s animated with incredible sound. We have composing team from Ukraine, but many of them are living all over Europe right now as refugees. But they put together this amazing composition. And then we have a sound designer, Aaron Makary, who’s gifted, and she’s brought the composition together, and then added so much of his own magic. And then we have an amazing production designer, Amelia really helps us sort of jump from country to country world to world and in and out of our heads. And so it’s it’s, you know, it. It’s very magical. I mean, I’m in it, and then I get pictures of it. I’m like, Wow, that’s quite, um, quite beautiful. So I think that Leanna really wanted to she sees this. Yes, there are terrible things that occur. But she sees this as a sweeping love story. And, and really leaned into that to just successful effect, I think. And so I think it’s a real, it’s yeah, it’s really visually, it’s not just two people sitting in chairs telling their story. It’s fairly visually. Beautiful, very rich.
Phil Rickaby
Now, you wrote this, with your wife with with Maria. As far as sometimes it’s hard. It’s hard enough to write something on your own. It’s another thing to like, write something with somebody that as a writer myself, I’m always curious about the writing process. And so for you, and Masha, what’s the writing process? Like to put this thing out on paper? How does how is it working with your wife on a on a creative project like this?
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah, I mean, it’s funny candidate because so many of us wear different hats. But in and I know that when I first conversations with Marsha, the idea of her writing something or like self producing something was like a pourraient. She’s like, No, I’m an actor, like that is what I do. And so it took some convincing, and we talked about in the play, because it’s not only that she’s writing, it’s that she comes from a practice where there’s not a lot of like, contemporary work, contemporary Ukrainian work, and then on top of that, it’s not it’s very rarely based on a true story. So she sort of, you know, was sort of questioning whether this was art at all. And I’m saying, well, there there. There are examples of Van Benny Joe’s in Canada, where this is this has been achieved. And we were really fortunate to go and see Maya ex boyfriend Yardsale. Haley and Joe’s piece there at Salt, pepper. And I think that that it was pretty late in the game that actually finally convinced Marsha what we were working on ad was was had the potential to be art. But I think that as you were writing on it, we assume because of like you say how many Ukrainians there are, you know, there’s a lot of Ukrainian Canadian artists. We assumed like after the invasion, that there would be just like a crush of plays about this. And then and then there’s just been so little. And it’s been, it’s sort of shocking how little there’s been. And so I think that became a real engine. For us. We’re like, we don’t want people to only be experiencing this war through the news and the horror of the stats coming in about the body count, we want people to know about the human side of things. And that became a major motivation. So, you know, Masha, in the play even stage, she’s like, I don’t care if this is art or not. My my, my stories has value. The stories, emotions and family have value. And these aren’t the sorts of stories that are making it onto the news bits.
Phil Rickaby
Do you have a theory as to why we’re not seeing this on stages and in the arts right now?
Matthew MacKenzie
It’s hard to say, I mean, I’m from Edmonton, but I live in Toronto. And, and it seems especially and pronounced in Toronto, and I’m not entirely sure about I mean, and Fisher made a really, really thoughtful, very generous article about how we’re not only not seeing really any Ukrainian stories or Ukrainian facing stories presented, we’re also seeing a real surgeon in Russian work presented, and he doesn’t call for a boycott of Russian work, nor does my narrative, my wife, and but the disparity, or I don’t even know if you can call it a disparity that the total lack thereof of Ukrainian work in a place like Toronto where, like, you know, me to hit and there was like, you know, 400 plays being written about me to an instant. So like, it’s an incredible community to respond to the here and now. And I’m not entirely sure, it’s, it’s, I hope it changes. I hope that not, you know, not just because there’s a tonne of Ukrainians and, and in Toronto, and but it just feels it feels really, I can’t explain it. It’s strange. It’s just strange and conversations about, you know, with folks who’ve been who are Ukrainian Canadian. They’re like, is this just something we care about? And other people don’t? Like? Is it this sort of, what about Islam? Like, well, there’s there’s many terrible things happening in the world. So why would be focused on Ukraine, and, um, but the scale of what’s happening in Ukraine, and the fact that it’s still happening and probably ramping up? And is that is the thing that makes me really just Yeah, I wonder why.
Phil Rickaby
I think I think generally the questions about what does find its way to our stages and, and why I think I think that’s something that is a mystery. It’s a mystery to a lot of people like why why this and not that why, why are we telling why are we telling these Russian stories and other Ukrainian Ukrainian stories? It’s it’s it’s it’s one of those mysteries ik Zeitgeist things maybe I have no, it’s strange.
Matthew MacKenzie
Like, I think that some of the instances was stuff that was programmed before COVID. And so like, you know, commitments have been made to artists and stuff, but in 50 years, and an academic looks at the stuff that we’ve been programmed in the year after Ukraine invaders, and we have the second largest cranium, despoil population outside Russia, I think it would be pretty hard for them to say, it kind of looks like the theatre community is sort of like well, not the whole community, but the all this Russian work that it’s it’s a touch tone deaf, so
Phil Rickaby
is it is it that that people who are not Ukrainian just don’t know Ukrainian work? Chekhov, for example, gets done quite frequently. There are 10s of Russian. Yeah, there’s where we’re known. And so they tend to be programmed because they’re a name that people know. And then maybe people don’t know the Ukrainian author Yeah. And pick
Matthew MacKenzie
up was born in you in what is now Ukraine. And you know, saw was boondock off and stuff but then these these these playwrights or these composers, or whomever gets so closely associated with Russia, Russian kind of cultural imperialism. It but do you think for me that resonates? Is it as a as a Canadian artists as a as a Matey artist is like you sure those same arguments for why we don’t have Canadian work? And you know, well, yeah, but we have the classics from England, and we have like our air friendly neighbours to the South who, you know, have a much deeper cultural canon. And so I guess you could argue that that’s also why you should never do Canadian work. And, but, yeah,
Phil Rickaby
I mean, also, I do think that sometimes, when we progress In Canadian work, for some we do it because because we have to. And also, we do it and then we discard it. Everybody wants a world premiere. So we do a Canadian play. And then we toss it away. And we never, we never remounted it’s never seen again. There are a few plays that are but it’s pretty rare because we don’t really I don’t think we put a lot of value on the plays. We just need to get them done in a run for a short time. And then we toss them away.
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah, yeah, they definitely don’t. They don’t get the the resources of the time to develop that they might need. I mean, we’re very fortunate with this tour, and so far is we got multiple kicks at the can. And obviously, this is a steroid, we’re still living. So I’m not under any illusions that it was, like perfectly just still dramatic work. But I think that’s part of its charm. Part of his charm, maybe is also that I’m not an actor, performing. So when I when I flip the slide or do something, you know, bizarre, like look directly at the booth or something. And people just find that amusing. But, but yeah, I mean, I’m not. I’m, I’m not for I’m not really generally a boy, codger. But just in terms of how much new work gets developed in Toronto, and how many remarkable Aedes there are. Right now, you know, it is it is baffling. And that that no one has produced a Ukrainian facing work. And I mean, got, you know, someone like Krishna is very successful Canadian playwright like it would, I don’t want to say it’s a no brainer, but like he wouldn’t have to work on that. Take that. We wouldn’t be that hard. And so anyhow, hopefully that will change next year. With with seasons coming out, but but it is, it is peculiar.
Phil Rickaby
It really isn’t. We’ll have to we’ll have to see what happens. Now, one of the things that I’m curious about and one of the things that I love to talk to people about is the thing that draws them to the theatre, or initially drew them to the theatre, whether as a performer as a writer, whatever it is, for yourself, for you, what, what made you want to start, like working theatre writing for theatre? How did that journey start for you?
Matthew MacKenzie
Well, I started acting as a kids, and I love theatre, but I didn’t love being on stage. So half hour that I’m in the show. But I think that I find writing is is a way that I can kind of like, make sense of stuff in my heart, in my mind, and the world around me, I don’t necessarily come up with answers, but it helps me undo knots a bit. And so that it’s more palatable. And are things just Yeah, or I can see more clearly. So that’s a that’s a huge part of what I write, I feel like I kind of need to, um, and, and yeah, the power. The power I feel of theatre right now, for what we’re doing is that I do believe that we can speak even if it’s an imperfect way, to the to the personnel in a way that I don’t think media can right now, or it’s challenged you right now, in a way that a documentary would do. That this living breathing people in front of you who have just experienced this and are experiencing this will have an effect on people that that other mediums would not. And it’s not to take anything away from the other mediums, but it’s just, it’s a special magic of theatre.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. You mentioned loving theatre. But, you know, not being comfortable on the stage. And I want to get to that in a second. But what was it? What were your early experiences with theatre? What was what was it that made you love it?
Matthew MacKenzie
I was very lucky. I got randomly cast in a Christmas pillow when I was 11. I think I looked really sickly. So they cast me as Tiny Tim. And I was in the show with an amazing actor, Walter caza, who is a famous actor and speech therapist in Evanston. And, and he was incredible. And he’s since passed. But like that, that was just like, you know, to see that, that power to see to see that. That magic every day when I was like 11 that that kind of hooked me. And then, and then yeah, I was very fortunate to be in shows where I was chorus or you know, not doing a heck of a lot. So it was always able to watch it was often sit backstage and just watch the same thing again and again and again. And to see what what people responded to and what they did and respond to and why they didn’t respond to it and why they did. And just, yeah, just feeling that. Yeah, just kind of marinating in that in that magic. And and then yeah, I guess, from the time I was around 16, I was pretty keen on being a playwright. I started a playwriting class of one of my arts high school. And they were lovely that they let me do that. And, um, but then coming out of high school, I was told that, you know, you need to be an actor, and then, and then fail at that. And then you can be a playwright. And I was like, Well, I failed at that. So maybe we’ll skip that. And then there was another wonderful person in Evanston, who has since passed just this last year, or not, this year, this year, Tom Peacock, who was a contemporary wildrick, as they were, they were buddies. And he said, he forgot giving me this advice. But he said, Okay, well, if you’re not going to study acting, there’s virtually no clarity programmes. So you need to get as far away from theatre as you can, and, and we get some life experience. And then And then, you know, keep writing but like, that will be your, your thing. So I started up a house cleaning company, and that lasted a lot longer than I ever thought it would. So that kind of, but that ended up supporting the playwriting and the art making in a way that I probably couldn’t have. With another kind of less flexible job, though, so yeah, it was kind of playwriting from an early early time for me. Um, and, and in Evanston, you know, there’s a is a lot of playwrights. And it seemed, even though it seems strange to just want to be a playwright, it seemed a reasonable thing in the heavens and context. Maybe it does to Jiang Torontonians. Do because they can see other people who are who are that and just that, you know,
Phil Rickaby
one of the things that I’m sort of like, hearing from your story is you were acting as a kid. Yeah. At what point did you realise that you did not enjoy it? Or what point was it like, this is not I don’t want to do this, I would rather do something else.
Matthew MacKenzie
That’s a good question. I think when my voice changed, and I had a, an audition, and I had this, like, beautiful soprano voice, and I had this audition, and I couldn’t remember that the audition is looking at me, like I wasn’t even human. And that made me very, I didn’t get that part. And then that sort of triggered some insecurities. And then, and then I started to really think like, what do I actually like about this? And I’m like, Oh, I like the media. I like the people. I like that person acting. But I myself, I don’t. I don’t particularly like the scrutiny. And it’s funny talking to actors, because it’s sort of like, it’s an unthinkable, you know, that you wouldn’t want to get in front of a crowd and, and sees that crowd, but I think I’m not a theatre people can relate to that. That little dare I say,
Phil Rickaby
yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, as somebody who, you know, just figured out, you know, early in their life that they didn’t want to be on stage, they didn’t want to be an actor. How hard was it? To convince yourself to be an actor in this play?
Unknown Speaker
Oh, it’s been a process. I definitely tried to pack myself or figure out how to get out of it on a number of occasions. Hey, I’ve buddy Sheldon alter, who has been in a couple shows of mine. And at one point, I’m like, hey, what do you think about playing me? And he read the play, and he’s like, I really think you should play you, brother. And so yeah, so it’s been I mean, I’ve been incredibly fortunate to have Masha, as an incredibly, incredibly patient, you know, person to create the play with but also to be on stage with, she’s so supportive. And then our actor, Liana knows me very well personally, and then has been also incredibly patient. And then our team, like my producer, shanece out, no, we sort of, we sort of created a plan, that it wasn’t just like two season doctors getting into the room and bang, putting up a play that we needed more time. So we had like a five week kind of part time rehearsal period, which allowed me to kind of like doing it more. And it also allowed us to spend more time with our son. So we were fortunate to be able to develop and in that way, if we had done it in two weeks, I think it would have had a nervous breakdown.
Phil Rickaby
I mean, that is that kind of rehearsal period is a bit of a luxury. Now it’s something we don’t get very often especially in Canada, we don’t do a lot of workshops and we don’t rehearse for long periods of time. So how did you demand or or managed to carve out that that space to take the time?
Matthew MacKenzie
Well, I mean, you know, I guess I should, can’t just be questioning why no one programme Ukrainian work when a number of companies have programmed our show, like we have a subsidy to are here this this year, across the country and and those those theatres, knowing enough about our story, having heard the radio play and knowing enough about me as a playwright, they took a gamble still to programme something that was not written that we were still very much living. And that that buy in, allowed us to, well have guaranteed fees, but then also pursue funding that allowed us to build the plan. And I think that I run a run to a theatre and having, you know, having a playwright run theatre makes it. So, yes, the, the, the plans are very much catered to the, to the playwrights usually,
Phil Rickaby
in terms of, of, you know, having that time, and certainly as you as you describe it necessary for you to have that time to be able to, you know, become the performer that you need to be for this show. What’s What was the learnings, the, that you had about this show, when you took that kind of that time when you had that, that kind of time to marinate, to sit in it to, to really live it experience it? Did you learn anything particular about the show in that time? Or was it just was it just like, I’m just trying to become a performer? Here.
Matthew MacKenzie
I think initially, the overall idea of it being a sweeping love story, on a producing level, I bought into like on a marketing level, but then really being in the show, and the moments that Masha and I have throughout the show and how we begin it and how we end it. Like oh, no, this is definitely a love story. It was just hard to get objectivity when I’m in it. And so that was that’s been the biggest learning that my director Leanna has has helped me kind of discover and then the audience’s that we’ve had really reinforced, can just feel them rooting for us in this in this wonderful way. And so, so they feel like very much like our dance partners as we make our way through these hoops after hoops after flaming hoops.
Phil Rickaby
Ya know, your play the bears is an award winning play. It’s one turn of creative theatre Critics Award Dora award. So it’s a well done, well decorated to decorate anyway. It’s a well decorated place. Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s just like, suddenly we’re like, yeah, we I mean, why not? Um, in terms of creating that play, it sounds like, like, just, it’s a very different play from this one. As far as as far as like, comparing the two, aside from topic, and, and, and subject matter, what, how are they different? I mean, obviously, the different stories, but how are they similar? What do they say about you as a writer, these two plays?
Matthew MacKenzie
What say the thing that makes them similar separate for me is that they both have incredible creative teams, and mostly of folks from Edmonton, Eric and so fortunate to work with, so that that’s the main through arm for me. I think on like a on a story level, they definitely, they definitely function very differently. And I think there’s there’s mentioned of chickadees in both bears, and there’s mighty men of ADESA. So one thing is mentioned in every one of my place bets, apparently. And yeah, I think that there’s that balance between talking about some really dark stuff. But always, you know, never being too far from a joke, or, or from something that’s hopeful. I don’t like go to the theatre, I’m walking out totally depressed into the night. And I don’t think that life is life to be full of horror and tragedy. And but I think that stories that don’t have humour, or don’t show the light side sometimes, actually are aren’t very realistic, because I think life is full of humour in weird shit all times. And so I think that that similarity exists. But I do think that the fact that it’s our story, and then we’re both in it, the vulnerability factor is like through the frickin roof compared to bears. Like I was working with a Sheldon Alger on bears in a group of like, remarkable dancers. And I’m not there, you know, half days and I’m like, How the hell did that Paris team make this little glitch so easy, and they’re dancing the whole time? And I’m like, go home and like laps.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, yeah. It’s the Yeah, for sure. Um, in terms like, you mentioned this, you know, the play bears is, you know, When you are looking or thinking about your work, are there particular themes that you gravitate to? I mean, obviously, you mentioned like the, you know, the topic of the tragedy tragedy, you’re never too far from a laugh. But are there other themes that that are? What you gravitate to?
Matthew MacKenzie
I think I think I get caught up on the idea of like, what are the things we can control? What are the things we can control, and what sort of like the drama or the fun in between, and those things. And, like, you know, weird because it happened in our real lives. And I like to kind of put characters into sort of these sort of really tricky quandaries and to see how they navigate things and try to be as as authentic as I think I can be, in their, in their heads, how they would navigate these circumstances, like bears. We were it’s about the though the trans mountain pipeline and a level but we didn’t want to dam all the oil workers in Alberta, because we friends and family with all these people. And so the character is, is himself an oil worker. And so it’s, for me, it’s a more complicated and more interesting journey, I see works to kind of impact his, his role in things, the stuff that he can control and the stuff that he can control. And, and, and I can universe, he might have ADESA, there’s things, there are things that we can control. And then there’s things like COVID in the war, that we can’t, and suddenly we’re dealing with those massive sort of, almost like a video game as challenges suddenly thrown into things. And I think that, that, that were, for me, the real investigation lives and the real, the real fun is then the challenge.
Phil Rickaby
Now, now Masha is not here thinking about you know, she’s come to Canada, during COVID. Um, so her eye, she came once before COVID. Yeah. And then and then moved here during COVID. And, um, but aside from that, I mean, aside from the idea of a documentary play being are, what are the, in speaking for her? Of course, what are some of the culture shocks that she’s experienced coming from Ukraine to Canada?
Unknown Speaker
Well, I mean, it can speak to the stuff she she wrote about in the show. So I’m not totally speaking for her. But, you know, we were told that, when we arrived at my health care would pick her for the birth, that’s a big reason why we came to Canada to have the baby. And then we got here. And because of COVID, they didn’t, they suddenly told us they didn’t know a lot I long it would take to process or application. So we were, we learned that because she was Ukrainian and the birth, as soon as he’s my son was born, he would be Canadian, but everything leading up to that would be something we would have to pay for if she didn’t get health care. So that really shocked her shocked me too. But it really made her feel like, as she says in the play is zero. And I think it really, she had just a couple months after arriving, she won this huge, like a dust film festival awards, like the Ukrainian Academy Award, she won one. And then here, you know, she’s, she’s sort of been she put out feelers to some ad A’s and some agents, and it’s just like, crickets. And she’s she, I don’t think she understood, probably like, unfortunately, a lot of newcomers and are faced with is that you have to start completely over. And whatever your status or expertise from where you’re from, it’s like, well, you know, you have to kind of prove everything all over again. And it’s pretty cool that she can speak about that critically about Canada than in the play. But, but I think other things that she’s observed is like with the war, she says, we had to cut this part but she had this hilarious bit about how Canadians perpetually like beat Brandon and people will perpetually be giving her the sort of small talk pep talks. Like all it’s really terrible what’s happening in Ukraine, but everything’s gonna work out, you know, it’s gonna be okay. Like, she’s like, why did why did Canadians say? It? They really thought about it, like, I don’t know, maybe it’s like, like, tied to our need to apologise, like, we have to like, hope that our interaction with someone will make them feel kind of good, even if it’s like, what we’re saying is total nonsense. So that’s been a really amusing observation.
Phil Rickaby
Sure, did you hear about a time when they tried to come up with the equivalent of American as apple pie but for Canada, and what they came up with was as Canadian as possible under the circumstances, and it’s sort of Like, like that sort of thing where it’s just like, we have to say something. We have to say something. So let’s be positive what Allah Yeah, this is what we do. We’re positive.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And it’s funny because it it is just like kind of like a harmless quirk, culturally. But she interpreted it as like basically like false empathy. She thought it was really kind of disturbing. And so,
Phil Rickaby
you know, it’s it’s it’s not Ukrainian, but it’s Russian. But I remember hearing the story of, of when the McDonald’s first opened in Moscow, and McDonald’s had that culture of like, everybody has to smile, which was foreign. foreign to the Russian people. Yeah. And I don’t know how much that carries over to the Ukrainian very
Unknown Speaker
much, but, but like, Yeah,
Phil Rickaby
you don’t trust somebody who’s smiling for no reason, in that culture. And so people would walk into McDonald’s, they’d be like, Hi there. And it would just be this. Like, why? Why are you smiling? Yeah, like, so it’s like, we’re kind of doing the same thing is like, we’re, we’re always smiling. We’re putting our spin on it. We’re trying to be positive. However, that might be. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I actually had an exchange with Masha. This is before we were ever dating, we were just in that workshop. And I was saying, we take the subway in Kyiv everyday to the workshop. And I said, like, I know, I look a little different, and like, but I dress like everyone else. But everyone’s just staring at me. They all know him or her like, what is it? I’m doing that is like a fluorescent light. And Matias like, it’s because you smile.
Phil Rickaby
I was talking with somebody. This is like the second time in like seven days that I’ve heard a similar thing to what you were describing for Masha. But in the case of the other person that just happened to they were born in Canada, they studied in Canada, they went away to UK. And they studied in the UK. And they worked for several years and got a whole bunch of credits under their under their belt and figure that those might count for something. When they got back to
Matthew MacKenzie
Canada as a Canadian. Yeah, but no, yeah. But it didn’t, it didn’t. So
Phil Rickaby
it’s not just it’s not just people who come here from away. It’s, it’s if you were from here, and you do something somewhere else, and you come back, unless you’re like the lead in a famous play, right? Everybody’s heard of, then it’s a big deal. If you can be the big success, but if you were just a working actor, or a theatre person, and you come back here, it doesn’t matter. Once you’re here. What matters is what you do and who you know, when you’re here.
Matthew MacKenzie
And then yeah, yeah, I definitely heard of that, too. And I don’t know why that is. But But I mean, even even within Canada, that kind of different communities. And I mean, it doesn’t seem like it’s as bad in Edmonton. But if you were perceived to be like selling out and moving to Toronto, or spending too much time in Toronto, that was a big no, no, but I hear a lot of people constantly asking, Where are you based? Where are you based. And I don’t feel that as much anymore. And
Phil Rickaby
I feel like like we have this this, I mean, our theatre world in Canada is so siloed, just by virtue of how much space there is between between cities. And we often don’t get to see what what what’s happening in each city, the only time I’ve ever really been able to experience what happens in one city or another is on a fringe tour. And that’s one way to do that. But you don’t really get to experience much of it. So I wish there were ways that we could we could, you know, more easily experience each other’s work. Yeah. And in from the cities, maybe we wouldn’t have that idea of Oh, you’re selling out, you’re going to Toronto sort of thing. If we could share the work a little better.
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah, it’s funny how the funding is work, because it seems like there’s a lot more at ease and in folks going to different countries and seeing work, then there is ad movement within Canada, and to see work with, you know, another another communities, which is, you know, maybe I don’t know if it’s always been like that, but it’s being an artist to kind of straddles two different communities and tours a lot. It does seem like sometimes a missed opportunity for some folks.
Phil Rickaby
That’s a whole essay, that’s a whole essay about how we don’t value our own work in Canada. So we would rather get a grant to travel outside of Canada to experience that work, then somebody from Toronto would be to go to Edmonton to see what, what’s interesting that’s happening there just because we devalue the work that we do in the theatre here.
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s, it’s interesting, and more like running the company and being on juries at funders and stuff to see kind of what, what is fundable? It’s quite, quite remarkable, like people can build. Canadians can build projects in other countries that never are never intended to be seen by Canadians. And that’s, that’s fundable. That’s okay. And, you know, I may be involved in those projects in the future, so I shouldn’t be going to go but I was got a shot.
Phil Rickaby
Now, it’s so hard to know what Because I don’t know, there’s there’s the whole like idea of what is fundable? Which gets to the root of like, are we catering our creative processes to the granting organisation so that we can get funded? Yeah. And is that right? Or should the those organisations cater to the creator and fund the work based on something that’s not like, whatever their criteria is? I don’t know how that would work. But I do feel like there’s a limitation based on the way that we fund things in Canada. Yeah, yeah.
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah, just seeing like a just Ted Dykstra post that coal mine didn’t get any operating funding, and just, you know, having seen the amazing work that they do that that is that is, that is baffling. That’s got to be incredibly frustrating. And there’s all
Phil Rickaby
kinds of little theatres in in Toronto, who are doing amazing work who don’t get any kind of funding data. Yeah. From from the granting organisations, even though the work they’re doing is vibrant and important, and, and really important on to their community and to the community, that yet they still don’t get the kind of grant that would help them thrive.
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it feels like on a project level, the Canada Council has done a great job of sort of revamping things and making it a lot less racist, but I don’t know rewrapped. Their, their, you know, their operating grants to who the companies that get those? It’s, it’s, you know, we’ve been told, we’re an indigenous led company, we’ve had a lot of success across the country. But we’ve basically been told don’t fly for operating funding, because you’ll get significantly less than you get project funding wise, because you have to start from the bottom and work your way up for 20 years. And that, and that seems totally not. I mean, I believe I appreciate the advice. I think it’s accurate. But it’s also total horseshit, if that’s the case.
Phil Rickaby
i Yes, I would agree that’s horseshit. Because that’s sort of like a corporate model, you got to start in the start in the mailroom and work your way up to become an important Theatre Company and rather than like a funding the new upstart, because, you know, the, the old, the old stalwart is getting plenty of sponsorship funding from like, be these big organisations, that that maybe some money of that, that some granting money that could go to them will be better served going to a smaller company and helping them operate.
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was I was shocked when I was on juries, like saying, I thought it would be much worse than the rest of the country. And Toronto would be a little bit more. I don’t know, head of the game, but I was like, shocked at the at the, at the companies that get the money and the ones that don’t. And I don’t think that’s, you know, I don’t think people know who, you know, if you’ve had a hit 20 years ago, apparently, you’re still getting six figures from, from the Canada Council. But people who’ve been putting out hit after hit after hit your last 510 years, can’t get operating funding. It’s a little bit weird.
Phil Rickaby
Just a closing, one of the things that I wanted to I wanted to talk about is is fundraising. Yeah, for Ukraine. Are there resources that are are being used in in conjunction with this show where we are? Is there is there talk of of the fundraising? Well, yeah, always on.
Matthew MacKenzie
I mentioned, it’s right in the script. And then we’ve got donation box, all our shows, now we’ve got a QR code, and we’ve got a links on our punctuate theatre.com, our website. And we’re sort of doing a dual purpose fundraising, where we’re raising money for veterans, who we’ve known for a number of years who are who are fighting to defend their country, so we’re raising kind of humanitarian aid for them. And then we’re also raising money for playwrights in Ukraine, who are who started a Ukrainian Ukrainian language, Ukrainian contemporary theatre company, right after the invasion, because there’s virtually none of that before this, because, you know, probably doesn’t take a genius to know that, like, there’s not going to be a lot of Russian work produced in Ukraine in the near future. And so there’s this huge vacuum, and need to support these these incredible artists. And so we’re trying to help our artists colleagues who are, you know, literally people Masha worked with for years. And so yeah, we’re trying to kind of to raise support for on both those fronts.
Phil Rickaby
Matthew, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for giving me your time this evening. And looking forward to seeing the show.
Matthew MacKenzie
Yeah, thanks for the chat.
Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil that’s me if you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating and if you’re listening on Apple podcast you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings help new people find the show if you want to keep keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod and you can find the website but the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram PhilRickaby And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy