Amanda Lin 林美智 (she/her) is a friend, playwright, daughter, arts administrator, crochet enthusiast, performer, and director. She is a graduate of Queen’s University, where she studied social psychology, theatre, and business, with her area of research centring on attitudes and social influence. She is interested in using art and storytelling to cultivate compassionate and dynamic communities. Amanda currently works at Nightwood Theatre, where she spends her time fundraising and co-leading emerging artist programs such as the Nightwood Innovators and Rising Moon. Her first full-length play, Between a Wok and a Hot Pot (Asian Canadian Dinner Theatre), is premiering in Toronto with Cahoots Theatre in January 2023.
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Tickets to Between a Wok and a Hot Pot: https://www.cahoots.ca/production/between-a-wok-and-a-hot-pot
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Transcript
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Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby, and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years, but I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.
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Amanda Lin is a theatre creator and arts administrator based in Toronto, her first full length play between a walk and a hotpot is premiering with Cahoots Theatre from January 28 to February 12, at the Theatre Centre Incubator. In this conversation, we talk about how she came to write that play, its development, the importance of finding community as well as her theatre origin story. Just for fun. We also discussed what kind of heist we would pull if we were to create a heist movie. Here’s our conversation.
So Amanda, thank you so much for joining me. Your play between a walk in a hot pot is currently in rehearsals. In fact, I believe you’ve joined me after a full day of rehearsals today. Yes, that’s correct. First off, how are rehearsals going?
Amanda Lin
They’re going really well. I’m getting to eat very well, which is one of the pros doing a play with food because today we did our first run through with the food. And then we finished the run and it was lunchtime. And the stage manager was like Well, someone needs to eat all this. So it was like I’m on it. So I had a delicious meal. The one problem with that is that we eat like we’ll do a run in the morning and we’ll eat and then we’re just so tired. Like I especially hotpot really just like, just really knocks us out. So I’ve done like, really dig deep to find energy for the afternoon.
Phil Rickaby
I mean, maybe it would have been good to build in a little nap time. Yeah, I think I think so. Yeah. Now, joking. It sort of jokingly, but did you create this show so that you could eat a whole lot of hot pot?
Amanda Lin
Um, I mean, not. I don’t think I was thinking that far. Because when I first started writing this play, it was literally just, I was in my fourth year of university. This was I think 2017 like December 2017. I was home for the holidays. And I was just bored. Like, I wasn’t thinking, Oh, this play will eventually happen. And I will eventually get to use government grants money to eat hot pot. I was just like, I need something to entertain me. So I wasn’t thinking quite that far at the point when I started writing.
Phil Rickaby
Um, for those who don’t know much about the show, which is this is a premiere for this show. Right. So outside of your own circle, really nobody’s seen this show. Could you tell me about between a walk in a hotpot?
Amanda Lin
Sure. So it’s called between a walk and a hot pot. And then the tagline is Asian Canadian Dinner Theatre. So the audience gets to eat hot pots during the show. So it started. It’s it started out as an autobiographical solo show. So I walk out I’m like, I’m a mandolin and like, Here’s hot pot, and here’s how my family eats it. And I kind of tell some stories about my family. And it’s, it’s been five years since I wrote it. So it’s kind of become this whole other thing since then. But essentially, it’s about my connection, my connection with my culture as like an Asian Canadian, as someone that was born in Canada and often feels like I don’t quite fit in, in Canada and I also like going back to Taiwan. I don’t speak Mandarin. I feel like I often have to prove my Asian ness to people so I feel like that also is kind of like that’s the between of the between a walk and a hotpot. Um, so it starts out as Amanda comes out and like, introduces the show and she’s like, I’m this all knowing Asian expert, and I’m gonna walk you through how to eat hotpot and you’re gonna get to eat it and enjoy, and it’s going to be so authentic. And then things kind of fall apart from there and the show starts crumbling. And Mandy has to question what she’s doing there and why she’s doing it essentially.
Phil Rickaby
In some ways, I mean, you had me at the audience gets to eat hot pot. Yeah. So for anybody who’s had hot pot, I’m sure they’re in just from that. I’m sort of getting a sense from you about about the driving inspiration behind this show, you know, you’ve mentioned that you were bored during the Christmas holiday, you were you were writing, um, aside from just the boredom and the food, and also like trying to tell your story, what what’s the what was the motivation to, to keep writing this show to, to go from like an initial idea to put it into a fully formed show.
Amanda Lin
I feel like it’s been a series of little steps along the way that kept me going on it. And a lot of it does, like come down to people gave me a deadline, and then I kept writing, because I honestly think that if that hadn’t happened, I probably would have stopped somewhere along the way. So I’m really thankful to have made it to this point. So I wrote it over the Christmas holidays, I never really intended to be a play, right, it was just something that I started doing when I graduated, because it’s the thing you can do with no one telling you to like, I also wanted to direct and perform, but like you kind of need people to give you those opportunities. Whereas writing, it’s like I can just start writing. So that’s how I got on that. And then I came to Toronto, and I applied, it was I was just working at a coffee shop, like trying to find my in, in the theatre industry. So I ended up applying with the project to the Ergo Arts Festival, which if you haven’t heard of is a really fantastic festival. I think they might be taking a bit of a break now. But when they were running, it’s essentially a festival of new works and provide some development support for the playwrights. And the only rule is that the players need to pass the Bechdel test. So I applied with this project. And I did a stage reading. And that’s where I met a lot of the people that are still collaborating on the show now Kenzie saying whose plays the I like to say the play is like a one and a half person show because if the play went as it should have as like, the main character wanted it to then you wouldn’t have seen this other character. But Kenzie plays the production assistant who kind of just shows up and starts like challenging Amanda. So I met Kenzi during that festival, as well as Elyne Quan who’s still the dramaturg on the piece. So that really kind of gave me the encouragement of like, oh, like this might be something that I should continue to explore. And I applied to recommend your grants and I kept writing and then I happen to be working at Cahoots Theatre just doing like five hours a week admin, like, I was really just the person who filed things that was my job. But that was around the time that Tanisha Taitt was taking over from Marjorie chan there and was looking for things to programme. So it really was just like a timing thing that I happen to send my script to Tanisha around the time that she was looking to programme shows. And that was it was originally supposed to be in 2021. So it’s we all know what happens there. Yeah, so I guess like it was a series of just like small things that kept me interested in the, in the show along the way. And it definitely has changed a lot because it was so personal. It still is personal. But as I’ve changed, the show is kind of like somewhat kept up with me, hopefully. Sure.
Phil Rickaby
I mean, you sort of you’re playing a version of yourself on stage. How has that character of Amanda changed as you’ve been creating the show?
Amanda Lin
Um, actually, I think that the character has not changed as much, I would say that the character as it is now still kind of represents this younger version of me. I think what changed was, me the writer, like my overall message that I’m trying to get across has changed and also so the second character, the production assistant, was introduced pretty early on, and that was like, at first, just like the more cynical version of me, because the main character Amanda’s very naive, like, just like freshly graduated, like, just wants to be successful and as like kind of willing to do whatever and like bend her morals to do that. And the production assistant was kind of like second Amanda who was cynical and like why are you like you should be more thoughtful. And it really was only when Kenzie stepped into the role at Ergo fest Ergo pig fest. that it was like, Oh, this is a this should be a real person like this should be not just Amanda one and Amanda two but like a human being. And I feel like that’s kind of where the project has shifted is in the interaction between these two people who have very different views, but are both also like navigating the same thing, which is trying to like being an Asian Canadian and trying to navigate what that means, and especially under all these expectations of what people think it should mean, or what the funding bodies and like what audiences want you to be when you get on stage as an Asian. So I would say that’s mainly why the change has happened.
Phil Rickaby
Now, you’ve mentioned that the the hotpot, the the meal goes wrong, was that always part of your plan that that would be a dramatic turn that the meal would go wrong? Or is that something that happened as you develop the play?
Amanda Lin
I mean, when I first wrote it, like sitting in my childhood bedroom in Pickering, Ontario, it definitely was more of a just a storytelling thing. Whereas like, I’m going to serve people hotpot, I’m going to tell them some stories about like food and me and my family. But in so before I came to Toronto, we did a pilot to production with the actual hotpot in Kingston, which is where I was going to school at the time. And that version already had the show somewhat going wrong, which I guess you know, it’s it’s been so long I don’t quite remember what spurred that to happen. But maybe it was just I don’t know it’s more interesting to like see the character of Amanda like scramble and like you got because she’s very like, put together at first she’s very, like, this is my show, like, I’m an expert. I’m very in control. And it’s really interesting to see like the true flashes of who she is, like come through in those moments of the show not going away. She plans.
Phil Rickaby
Um, you mentioned growing up in Pickering, I have to I spent my teenage years in Ajax. My neighbours next door neighbor’s one of the things that I always like to talk about is is the origin story. For every theatre person. Everybody has their own story. One of the things that I find interesting about your story, and I do want to hear about the what drove you there. But first, I noticed that you went to Queen’s University, and you studied social psychology, theatre and business. Yes. Which seem far apart. But also, when you think about it nicely related. What? What drove you to do like three things while you’re at university rather than just the one?
Amanda Lin
Yeah, so at Queen’s, you don’t have to declare a major in first year, which is something that drew me to it, because I definitely did not know what I wanted to do. So you declare your major after the first year. So I went to Queens thinking, I was maybe going to do a theatre major, or like a stage and screen, which is their film and drama programme as maybe going to do that. And then I found psychology like, psychology 101. Pretty interesting and important context here is that my mum is a psychologist. So I grew up around psychology. I’ve always found it pretty interesting. So at the end of first year, I was kind of like, Hmm, should I major in theatre, should I major in psychology. And then I have this thought, and I, my parents have always been very encouraging to me to pursue the arts, if that’s what I’m passionate about. But I definitely had the narrative in my head of like, Oh, if I go into the arts, like, it won’t be as stable, which is true, it has been true. So I kind of thought to myself, well, if I want to work in psychology, I will definitely need a degree like no one’s letting me do psychology without a psychology degree. That’s just not going to happen. But and then on the other hand, if I want to work in theatre, like, maybe I couldn’t get by without the theatre degree, like maybe people will still let me do that. And I mean, it’s worked out because I’m doing theatre now. Full time. But I, there’s definitely moments because I don’t think that there’s like nothing gained from a theatre degree. So I definitely, there’s moments where I feel like I’m missing out on something or there’s something I need to catch up on. But I also appreciate coming into it from a different angle. And there’s elements in the show where I, where I talk about psychology. And the business aspects kind of came out of I mean, I’m looking back on it, I’m kind of like, Why did I do that? I don’t know how much it’s really playing into my life. Now, but I was doing that because I knew that if I wanted to do psychology, I wouldn’t be a therapist. I was thinking maybe I would be like a consultant or something which now that now now I look back on them like I would not do well in like a corporate environment, but that’s why I did the business but that does kind of all tie into each other. Somewhere. I joke in the show that those three skills would make me a very excellent con artist, because I like convincing people of things and like the business side anyway, when I Got it. Third year, I was kind of at that at the end of that year kind of like, okay, I for sure want to do theatre, but I didn’t want to go back and redo the entire degree. So, here I am a psychology degree. And now it’s like, I like to joke with my mom because my brother and I both did psychology degrees, and neither of us are using them, both of us are in need.
Phil Rickaby
It’s almost like just sort of like, doing the thing. I’m going to do this thing. So my parents are happy that I’ve done this thing, and I’m just gonna forget.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, I feel like it’s such a thing, especially with like Asian immigrant children is you feel like if you want to go into the arts, you still have to get that like, legit. Legit degree in air quotes, right? First. And I’m sure that’s like slowly changing. But yeah.
Phil Rickaby
So just to get into like, the inspiration for theatre and going into theatre, you sort of like your parents were supportive. were supportive of you going into the arts, if that’s what you wanted to do. But when did that first start becoming a thing? What? What is it that first started drawing you to theatre?
Amanda Lin
Well, I from a very young age, I was always like, putting on plays and making my brother be in these plays, I would like chop up old home photos to make like a programme like I did the admin to as a kid, I was not just like the director and the performer and the writer, I also did all the like, front of house and like I made tickets. And I also did a lot of like plays and skits with my stuffed animals. And I know people joke that’s just being a child. Like that’s not necessarily a theatre artists in the making. But I think that’s probably where I started. Like, it’s just like, where I naturally like was drawn to was storytelling. And then I like did some theatre classes. And like, throughout high school, I was pretty involved at the theatre there. And obviously, in high school, at least at my school, there wasn’t really much that you could do outside of acting. You could, there weren’t as many like tech or directing opportunities. So that was definitely something I started to explore more in university, I was very involved with the, like extracurricular Theatre in university. So much so that like people during school would forget that I was a psychology major. And like, even now, I think some of my friends forget that I was a psychology major, just because I would like go to the drama formals. Like, I didn’t know people in psychology really? Yeah, I don’t know, it’s just always been something that I’ve been drawn to. So I am really glad that I had the opportunity to kind of follow that passion. Although I do believe that it’s something that I would have used in any field that I went towards, I think,
Phil Rickaby
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. It’s interesting, because you mentioned like the putting on plays. And I do think there’s some people who would say that, yes, that is part of that. Being a kid. But also I feel like that’s, I’ve heard that as as an origin story for so many people, like we put on plays, and I think that there is there, each of the people who grows up, like putting on plays in their living room and forcing the relatives to watch or whatever. That’s like a nascent theatre artists that eventually can either go into the theatre or have that dream, taken away or they they decide that’s not what they’re going to pursue. But I feel like that’s like the beginning sprouting of a theatre artist.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, and I do think so much of theatre, at least, the way that I like to do theatre is kind of returning to that very playful, childish joy. And there’s definitely a period and I’m still like struggling with this. Like, as you become professional, where you start to concern yourself more with like, well, people like it like, well, people think it’s like, good art, that, for me, at least, can really get in the way of that playing. So it’s nice to kind of remember like to remember the roots of why I like it. Is it’s like in the like play in the storytelling like the creativity unhampered by like realism sometimes. Yeah, yeah,
Phil Rickaby
absolutely. I think that I think that plays like a very important part. I think that if we get too bogged down with is a good art will people think it’s good art, we end up not making good art, but I think that if we, it to me, if my goal is I just want my audience to, you know, have a to have an enjoyable time, whether we’re talking whatever topics we’re talking about. I want them to enjoy themselves and to leave. Having said that was a good use of my time. Yeah, that’s really all I care about. And maybe they will think it’s art, and maybe they won’t, but I think that one way or another, entertaining them has to be the number one thing.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, and I’ve been thinking a lot too about like what we consider to be high art versus like low brow are things that are even just crafts versus art and a lot of it does have to do with like class and just like the barrier to entry to join something. So it’s been nice to kind of try to step away from those expectations a little bit.
Phil Rickaby
I personally love low art, I love I love slapstick I like I like high jinks. I like all of that stuff. Because, you know, I think that, you know, we can get bogged down in, in the idea of, of of class, the, you know, who’s going to enjoy it, who’s a four, but then even the high art of say, I don’t know, Shakespeare has like slapstick stuff, like, it’s got a low art as well as the poetry. So if we don’t give people that, that I think I think there’s something there for everybody, or there should be.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that like the my favourite kinds of art and like the things that I strive to make have a lot of different points of access, where if you’re just looking for a good time, you’re just looking to like have an to be entertained, like you can do that. But if you’re looking to dig deeper to really reflect, and to like, have to like start conversations, then it there’s also opportunity for that to whether or not I’m successful at that in my play, who knows, but that’s definitely what I what I aim for.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. I think that I think that it’s when you do that, when you start with something that maybe seems light, and then you bring it into something a little more serious, that way, everybody’s had a good time. And then they can leave chewing on something, something a little more serious. And I think that that combination is really a thing that helps to elevate something from just a fun night to something that you might call art.
Amanda Lin
Yeah. And I also think that like, this is also just how I want to make my art. And I think that it’s really valuable to have artists who are doing all sorts of different things. And I think that’s been a challenge for me is to be able to, especially as a very young artist, to be able to look at other people and be like, I like that a lot, but does not mean I need to do that. It does not mean that that’s necessarily like where my skills lie. So being able to like identify like, is like this is what I think I’m capable of, and what I want to like grow in my skills towards. And yeah, it’s doing that kind of art that has many different access points.
Phil Rickaby
Hmm. So this is your first full length play. But have were you writing before you started writing this? Or was this like your first? I mean, aside from the plays that you created as a kid to do work? Is this the first play that you were writing? Or have you written previous to this? I think
Amanda Lin
it probably I’m trying to remember now. I think it probably was my first play. I think I had written maybe some monologues here and there like drama class, I actually wasn’t even allowed to take like the playwriting classes at Queensbay either, like overlapped with my psychology classes or because I wasn’t a major. I couldn’t take it. Yeah, this was my first play I but I did grew up writing a lot, mostly journaling. I’ve started journaling when in 2012. And I still journal, which is really nice, actually, that I can go back and see like 10 years of journals. And I used to write like books about my stuffed animals. But yeah, this was my first, my first play.
Phil Rickaby
I think that journaling is a great entry point into into that sort of thing. I was as a as a young boy, as young child, I, I wanted to journal, but I could never really just do it. Because I would sit down to journal I would be like, I can’t think of anything to say, and I would stop. But other people that I know who journal. It’s just like, it just like starts flowing and it becomes an easy thing to do. And because you’re just sort of writing almost stream of consciousness, you really become I think it enables you to become in touch with how you write and where your inclination goes. Is that Is that something that you found with your own journaling?
Amanda Lin
Yeah, for sure. I think especially because I’m someone that’s so influenced by if you can tell influenced by like, what people think of me, writing something that’s so private is really, really good for me, because it gets me in touch with what I sound like what I write when no one when no one else is going to read it when I don’t have to think about if it’s good. So that’s been really helpful. Also, I will just say to I don’t know, if you’ve tried, like in terms of journaling and not feeling like you have something to say. Like, I think that for people that feel like when they’re writing, it’s hard to like, fully get that stream of consciousness, like doing a voice memo. I mean, you’re a podcaster
Phil Rickaby
No, I’ve done the in fact, I’ve done a few essays on the podcast that I always started by. Okay, I’m going to ramble on this, and then I’m going to transcribe it. And then I will find a through line for it. And so that’s something that I’ve I’ve certainly done in the past somehow I think that I have always written for myself presentation only so like you I’m always thinking about what people will think of it. Even if it’s just for me, I’m going to I’m thinking about you know, somebody will read Just one day, what will they think my future? ographers? Yes, the future biographers? Yes. Also, I like the idea of I think, I mean, most of us in theatre, We’re all worried about what other people think of us. Even if we don’t admit it, I think that’s just a thing, because we put something on somebody who reviews it, and then we wait for their review to come out. And it’s all like, it’s all so fraught. And I think it’s something that’s very common for all of us just the idea of what other people think of us and our work.
Amanda Lin
Yeah. And I think this is something that’s very much in the play. Because one of the challenge is that Mandy has to question because she’s presenting herself as this like Asian expert, is, she starts like the especially the production assistant starts to question like, Why do you think this is what people want to view? Like, why do you have to go up and talk about your identity? Like, who are you making this for? And are you just being what white audiences and funders what you think they want from you, instead of just saying what you want to say? And that’s a question that’s kind of been haunting me for the five years that I’ve been writing this every single workshop, somebody would be like, well, who are you writing this for? And at first, that used to really, really frustrating me, because like, you wouldn’t ask a white playwright who they’re writing for, it would just be like, not even a question. So at first, I kind of like dodged it by by being frustrated by it. But the more I thought about it, the thing that’s confusing about the play for me, and that I finally nailed down as a QA that makes sense is that I call the character Mandy, because it was something Marjorie chan introduced when she was directing the play at Ergo Arts Festival. She’s like, we don’t know who we’re talking about. So she renamed to the character, Mandy, so we could differentiate when we were talking about me, the playwright and when we’re talking about the character, but Mandy, Mandy, is kind of writing this play for white audiences. And the thing that was challenging is that Amanda did not want that to be the case. So it’s kind of a weird line to play, where the play that like, it’s just like, layers, where like the character thinks is like writing it for a certain audience, but I want it to be for, for Asian artists, especially for people like it really means a lot to me, when someone will say like, I felt very like seen by that, or like you said something that I’ve been wanting to say. But that’s yeah, I feel like a lot of that comes with the like, the challenge of what will people think of this? Hmm,
Phil Rickaby
it’s interesting, talking about, you know, the question of like, who is this for? And while I think, perhaps you’re correct, that somebody would only ask that question of somebody who’s a person of colour? I think that there’s plenty of times when it should be asked, every playwright and every playwright should consider it. Who is this for? Who am I writing this for? They should like, make a list who you’re writing this for? Because it’s an important question. That I think you’re right. I think a lot of white playwrights might get away with not doing that.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, I mean, for a long time, the default for like a theatre, especially a theatre audience is like whites, like more upper class. Yeah, I don’t remember, I think it was at the Toronto vital signs report had some stats about like theatre, in terms of different forms of art is one of the most divisive in terms of who is able to attend, and a lot of it is money. Although this, I, there’s definitely a lot of theatre companies that have lower, like lower priced tickets or pay what you can. And that’s really great. But I also think that some of it is to just like, who’s comfortable in that space. And like, who would even think about like, going to see a show, like even some, a lot of its marketing to like, even if there is a show that’s like for this certain audience, and it’s like, price points that like anyone can afford, if it’s not, like marketed that way, then people who have for the past however, many years haven’t felt like this is a space for me, like it’s gonna take a lot more to welcome them into that space.
Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. Marketing is a huge part of it. And also, I think, in some cases, we put a lot of things on our stages that we’ve and theatres, many theatres survived by their subscriber base, which skews older. And so I think they tend to put on things that make their older audiences more comfortable, which of course is at the detriment to everybody else, because the rest of us might not want to see that and when we could just turn on Netflix do something that we really didn’t want to see. So I think theatres kind of shoot themselves in the foot for the future when they play for their their subscriber base and and aren’t putting something out that maybe other people want to go out and see. Yeah,
Amanda Lin
for sure. And as well, like not just the subscribers, but Also, the way that like a lot of the theatre companies in Toronto are nonprofits, so they get their funding from the funding bodies and from corporations and through sponsorships. And obviously, that also impacts the kinds of shows the kind of programming that theatres do. I’ve been thinking a lot, I also work at night with theatre, and I do arts admin, which actually, it’s very nice to like, have a creative aspect of my work, but also like a very administrative aspect. But that’s something that we’ve talked about there of like, does the programming follow the funding? Or does the funding follow the programming like, sometimes you’ll see, like grantor sponsorship, and you’ll be like, and it’s looking for something very specific. So you create that, as opposed to like, I have this really cool project I want to create, so let’s go find the funding for it. Just like which one, it’s like a chicken or the egg scenario, which is, again, something that I sort of tried to talk about in the play, because so there’s this fictional funding body in the play, it’s called the Canada Council for greater diversity in the arts, the CCDA. And so the idea is that Mandy has created this play for a programme that they have called dumplings and diversity. So it’s kind of like, questions throughout the show, like how much of this is just because of like, the parameters of whatever the funding body was, or like what you think they want, so that they’ll fund you more in the future? So yeah, that’s definitely something that I wanted to try to talk about a little bit with this play, and hopefully a comedic way.
Phil Rickaby
Well, I think that it’s like, I’m glad that Nightwood is talking about that. Because I think it’s an important question to grapple with. Are we focusing the theatre that we’re making on the grants that we could get? Or are we just trying to make a good play and finding the in the grants will find us? I know, it’s a balancing act for a lot of the theatres. But I think that I think that when we focus our creation on the grants that we can get, we’re limiting ourselves on the kind of theatre that we are going to make and the and the audience that we’re going to invite in. Because those bodies sometimes want a little bit of of safety.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, for sure. And it’s also I feel like, I don’t know, it’s a challenge, because you want to, like the artist and service to the audience, in some ways, like you’re paying for a ticket. Like, this is like a service we’re providing, but also, like, I think it’s the artists job to kind of also sort out, what is it that like, people don’t realise they want like, can’t like, but like not very well once? And I think it’s like that sometimes with with funding.
Phil Rickaby
Sure, but I will, I will throw it a recent example of a movie that was that was out recently, if you would told me that, that I wanted a movie in which Nicolas Cage played Nicolas Cage, I wouldn’t have known for a second that that was a thing that I wanted. But as soon as I heard it, I knew exactly that. That’s what I wanted. Yeah. So we don’t the audience don’t necessarily know what they want, but they can they sort of like, feel it when it’s offered to them,
Amanda Lin
you know? Yeah, totally. And this is something that I mean, I’m definitely still trying to find the answer for for myself, and I think everyone, every artist probably has a different answer. But I’m like, What is like why, like, why? What’s the purpose of the art I’m making, and something that I landed on recently, it was actually in a video essay about Animal Crossing. was very good. It’s about Animal Crossing and communism. It was basically like, your island is a commune. It was just like presenting this game. I don’t know how familiar you are with it. But I feel like it’s oh, well,
Phil Rickaby
I’ve played many hours of Animal Crossing. So
Amanda Lin
yes, yeah. So basically was like the video essay was arguing that the that like Animal Crossing, is presenting like this potentially, like alternate way of life, like, sure people like to like, rag on Tom milk for being a capitalist. But at the end of the day, you get free housing, like there’s all of your basic needs are provided for. Even going to this anyway, in that video essay, there was a quote, and I’m gonna misquote this, but basically, it was like saying that art, the purpose of art is to serve, like the community like is to is to aid the community in the creation of its own culture. And I really feel like that’s, that’s something that I connected with, because I feel that especially as I’ve been working in the arts, I felt most what’s the word I’ve, I felt I don’t know what I’m trying to say. I’m sorry, as I’ve been like, as I’ve been working in the arts, like the moments of community are the ones that I feel most passionate about. And so I think that’s what I’ve really latched on to in terms of like the purpose, the if the art that I want to make, I want it to be something that’s accessible and aiding people in Creating something that they feel seen and that they feel represented?
Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. Okay, there’s two questions that I really want to get to. And first off, I know you’ve told me that you have many hobbies do this specific phrasing was many hobbies and so I am curious about uh, what are your what are some of your many hobbies just to give us a sense of those many hobbies.
Amanda Lin
I’m so sure. I have always been like a very career focused person and then the pandemic it and I was like, Oh, I guess I got to be a person like this I have to like, exist outside of work. So I picked up many hobbies. I’ve been crocheting pretty non stop. I take it everywhere with me like, I’ll crochet my brother jokes that it’s like my idol animation, like in a video games, I just like whip out my crocheting. I also have recently learned over the pandemic. This was my form of exercises I learned like so many Kpop dances. I’m not a good dancer, but I’ve enjoyed it. I also have been like playing a lot of video games. And it’s been really, really refreshing to do something creative that isn’t connected to my career that isn’t connected to my connecting to my value that value that as a person. It’s just like something that I enjoy doing. I think that’s been like very healing. To connect. I also have a list on my phone called retiree activities. I may never get to retire, but it’s just a list of like hobbies that I would like to have in the future like rug making love to make a rug. I would love to learn to widdle I want to make paper from scratch. I want to birdwatch.
Phil Rickaby
You know, I think that that one of the I think that you are not the only person who during the pandemic had to be like, Oh, who am I? Oh, when I am not doing this theatre thing, and had to find ways to discover that everybody has come up with different things that they learned different ways to pass the time when they couldn’t be doing say theatre for example. As a fellow video gaming person I have to ask, aside from Animal Crossing, what’s at the top of your list?
Amanda Lin
Oh, man, I have a spreadsheet. It’s like very intense. I my favourite video games? I do not have this for theatre, I probably should I probably should have a spreadsheet. The place I see it. But I have a spreadsheet for video games. I guess I’ll just say that one that I played recently. Because otherwise we’ll be here for a long time. But one that played recently that I really liked over the holidays, I played a game called Citizen sleeper. Have you played it hurt? No, I
Phil Rickaby
haven’t. It’s like
Amanda Lin
a dice based RPG that’s set in the future. And you’re this kind of like Android that you’re technically property, but you’re trying to like live and exist as like a full like sentient being. And you have these days. And you can choose how you want to spend your energy every day. And you have to put some of it towards like getting food and medicines that you can continue surviving. But otherwise, you can kind of choose what you want to do with it. I really enjoyed that. It was like a very interesting critique on capitalism as well. But it also just like taught me, I’m someone that will just like go and go and go, even if I’m running out of energy, I’ll like really feel a lot of pressure to help to do the things that other people are expecting of me. But in that game, if you keep doing that, and you don’t spend any energy, taking care of yourself, then eventually you just can’t do anything. And that was kind of starting to happen to me at the end of last year, I was just getting so burnt out. So playing that game was like, it seems so simple, but was just a very nice reminder that like I need to also prioritise, giving myself what I need to continue existing.
Phil Rickaby
It’s such an important lesson. And I think that many of us have have have spent a lot of time saying yes to things. Even when you’re exhausted. Somebody comes and says, here’s a thing. Can you do it? Yes, I can. Do I have the time? I don’t know. But I should say yes. And we just put all that energy into it. I know I’ve gone through that. And in the last maybe 15 years or so I’ve discovered the glory of the word no. And it’s so soothing.
Amanda Lin
And I think it’s is like I mean, I’m sure it exists in lots of different industries. But I think that especially in theatre, there’s this. There’s like this thing where you feel like you have to be busy, like do you ever hear like theatre people talking? And they’re like talking about how busy they are. But it’s almost like a brag in some ways. And it’s like no, I hope I genuinely hope that everyone’s getting to rest. I think that’s very important.
Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. There’s only other there’s only one other industry where I have seen that kind of like the bragging about how much they’re doing and that’s in like the event industry, people who plan conferences and things. They do that all the time. But like actor, like, the amount of time that actors like, are moving and doing things and not really taking time for themselves. Everybody is just like rife for for burnout.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, totally. And I think that’s something that I had that really helped me challenge that was the was the realisation that of it, how that’s tied to capitalism of feeling like in case unless I’m creating some sort of product, I am not a value. So I must keep creating and churning out content. And that was, again to tie it back to my many hobbies. Like doing something that like was not creating contents, like was not, wasn’t really like doing much. It was just something that I was doing, because I liked doing has been very helpful. And people have asked me, like, will you sell the things you’re crocheting? And I’ve always been like, no, because I think that might ruin some of the fun for me, like I love I know, no shame to anyone who’s like starting their own, like small business. I think that’s great. But I think for me, it was just like, it’s always been a thing that it’s nice to have something that’s like, just the thing that I want to do.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, deciding to sell a thing changes your relationship with it. When it comes a business. I knew somebody that used to make leather bags, that was their hobby, and then we would make leather bags. And everybody said you should sell your bags. And so they tried to start a business, creating the bags, and they immediately hated it. Yeah, because of all of the demands of making the bags and they couldn’t turn them out fast enough. And just it was just too much. So it’s so good to have something that’s just yours.
Amanda Lin
And that’s like, that’s already like happened to me a little bit in terms of like creating theatre and creating art. I still love it. I’m still very passionate about it. But it does change when it’s tied to making rent. Or like having enough food.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, for sure. All right, there’s one question. There’s one thing that you you that you said that I have been wanting to ask you about this? Since I saw this. I
Amanda Lin
don’t even know if I remember what
Phil Rickaby
it’s and I’ve actually been like buzzing with this. Yeah, said I would like to do a heist one day. And I am like, Okay, we have to plan this heist. Like, what is what okay, what kind of heist Do you want to do? And how much? Let’s be honest. How much have you thought about it?
Amanda Lin
i Okay, not not a tonne. I think I’ve thought about it a lot on a surface level, but not a lot in terms of how it would actually go. I think that and I also have, I will say a very, very loose definition of a heist, like in my brain School of Rock is a heist movie. Because there’s like, I just I just like the elaborate plan. Everyone has roles. There’s a little bit of like a secrecy to it. And then it builds up to like this big comment. Maybe that’s theatre? Is theatre a heist?
Phil Rickaby
Maybe it is,
Amanda Lin
it’s maybe I just wanted to theatre. But I yeah, if you want to plan a heist, I’m down. I picture it being a sort of Robin hoodie thing I don’t want to steal from anyone who needs the things. Stealing from people that do not need it, I think would be my goal. I also realised that I don’t actually have any skills that would be useful in a heist. So I think that’s something I should probably work.
Phil Rickaby
On. The great part about imagining a heist is that you don’t actually have the skills you can just like, think about it in more of a romantic fashion about how fun it would be. Because you know, whenever you watch a heist movie, they look like a lot of fun.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, and that’s like always a great soundtrack. I you know, I think I can maybe the getaway driver, I’m a pretty good driver. There.
Phil Rickaby
Man. Is it the soundtrack that draws us to heist movies?
Amanda Lin
I mean, it might be I feel like it’s that it’s just like the energy of like everything coming together like the buzz towards that like final moment when it’s like Did it go well, or did it go off without a hitch? What would what would your highest role be?
Phil Rickaby
Oh, my goodness. See, I think it’s I think it’s an art museum heist. I think it’s an art museum heist. And one of the reasons why I say that is because it when I first heard that the that up until this century, nobody cared about the Mona Lisa until it was stolen right out of the loop and somebody like walked in, pulled it off the wall, walked out with it, like basically under their coat. And then it captured everybody’s imagination and since then it’s been the be all and end all and I think about the person who was like, you know, I’m going to steal that that Da Vinci painting that nobody cares about and just did it. Something about that now that has that’s got to have a great like 60s like soundtracks going on. i Something about like an art heist just seems like it’s super dramatic.
Amanda Lin
Okay, that just gave me an idea of our host. I think that so one of us needs to paint something, got it in a gallery, and then we’ll steal that painting so that it becomes valuable
Phil Rickaby
Oh my god that is.
Amanda Lin
So visual art skills because I do not
Phil Rickaby
I don’t I guess I could do something that’s like, abstract because you can get I think
Amanda Lin
I’ve also heard of this is kind of similar to maybe my idea was I’ve heard of things called anti heists where it’s like, instead of going to an art gallery and taking a painting, you’re trying to put a painting into the art gallery.
Phil Rickaby
Yes. Like, how long will they How long will it take them to notice that this painting is not part of their collection? Yeah.
Amanda Lin
Okay, so we have some plans here. We can have some plans. Yeah, go and work on this and come back. Yeah,
Phil Rickaby
absolutely. Absolutely. Just to bring things back to between a walk in. So that’s with Coach theatre at the Theatre Centre incubator, January 28. To February 12, right?
Amanda Lin
Yes. Go on sale tomorrow morning. Well, perfect. January 11, in case you’re listening on the 11th at 9am.
Phil Rickaby
That’s awesome. I think. It sounds like I cannot wait to see this show. To be honest with you. I can’t wait to see this show. In terms of the food aspects of the show, are you’re making hotpot on stage you’re boiling the broth, you’re like cooking the food, you’re doing the whole thing? What can audience expect to be putting in their mouth?
Amanda Lin
Okay, good question. Well, first of all, there’s two types of tickets. So there is a food ticket, which is a little bit more and there’s also a non food ticket. So in case you want to come I don’t know who this is appealing for, but just in case you want to come and just smell the food, but not get to eat it. You can do that it smells very good in there. Like I walk into rehearsal every morning and it smells like garlic. And it’s very hard to focus. But so for those of you who have had hop up before, it’s very much my family’s recipe. And I say in the show, like I don’t know if this is like authentic, but this is what my family eats. So there’s a broth, which is like a chicken flavoured vegetable stock. There’s a lot of vegetables, we have some mushrooms, there’s some fish balls, there’s lamb and beef. There’s also the option for vegetarians as well. And there’s tofu and there’s bok choy. And then there’s like an array of sauces to create your own sauce bowl too. So it’s very good. I’ve have become aware throughout the workshopping and rehearsal process that I have to come well fed to this show. Because otherwise, I am not gonna be able to focus because it just smells so good.
Phil Rickaby
That’s, that’s a good, that’s a good lesson to learn before so like I always have to eat just enough that I have energy, but I can’t feel like heavy but I think that if I was in your shoes, I would definitely need to have like a full meal before.
Amanda Lin
Yeah, I wrote into the play that my character takes like one bite of land because it’s like a cooking demo, as well as like the first half of the play is more cooking demo where I like show you how to prepare the broth and like chop the veggies, and like walk through all of the ingredients. And then the second half is more like traditional Dinner Theatre where the audience is just eating at that point. And I’m doing my little like high jinks onstage.
Phil Rickaby
Sounds wonderful. Well, Amanda, thank you so much for joining me. I’ve enjoyed our conversation. And like I said, I can’t wait to see the show.
Amanda Lin
Thank you so much for having me and I look forward to our heist.
Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcasts, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings help new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at @Stageworthypod and you can find the website with the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at @PhilRickaby and as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com. See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy