Rob Kempson is a theatre artist and educator, working primarily as a director and playwright, and the Artistic Director of the Capitol Theatre in Port Hope. Selected Writer/Director: Trigonometry (timeshare/Factory); Mockingbird (Next Stage Theatre Festival); SHANNON 10:40 (timeshare/Videofag); explicit (Rhubarb Festival); #legacy (Harbourfront Centre); The HV Project (Community). Selected Director: Box 4901 (timeshare/Buddies), The Places We Are (Theatre Erindale), The Snow Queen (Canadian Children’s Opera Company), Electric Messiah (Soundstreams), The Little Mermaid (St. Lawrence College), 9 to 5: The Musical (Randolph College), The Ballad of Stompin’ Tom (Sudbury Theatre Centre), Box 4901 (SummerWorks, foldA Festival); The Canadian, Maggie and Pierre, Million Dollar Quartet, Daisy Amazed Me, Violet’s the Pilot, Rose’s Clothes (Thousand Islands Playhouse); Robert (co-directed with Briana Brown, Toronto Fringe); Songs for a New World (Claude Watson). Writer/Composer/Performer: The Way Back To Thursday (Theatre Passe Muraille/Touchstone Theatre – Dora Nomination: Outstanding New Musical). Rob has been a member of the Stratford Festival Playwrights’ Retreat, a Resident Artist Educator at Young People’s Theatre, and the RBC Intern Director for The Musical Stage Co. He is the past Artistic Producer of the Paprika Festival, the past Associate Artistic Producer at Theatre Passe Muraille, and the past Associate Artistic Director at the Thousand Islands Playhouse. Rob is also the Co-Artistic Director of ARC, a Toronto-based company.
www.robkempson.com
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Tickets to ARC’s Martyr: https://www.nativeearth.ca/shows/martyr/
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Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby, and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years, but I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.
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Rob Kempson is a theatre artist and educator who works primarily as a director and playwright. He is the artistic director of the Capitol Theatre in Port Hope, and the CO artistic director at aarC, where he is directing Marius one minute Berg’s martyr, running from January 13 to 29th at the Accu Studio Theatre in Toronto. In this conversation, we talk about his journey to becoming artistic director at the Capitol Theatre, what the job of artistic director looks like at a local slash regional theatre in Ontario, how he sees the role of artistic director in growing the next generation of theatre leadership, and much more. Here’s our conversation.
Rob, thank you for joining me today. Now many, many years ago, we had a conversation, I had a podcast under a different name. So we’ve had a conversation before but a lot has changed.
Rob Kempson
Yes, a lot of change. And I’m glad you said that, because I thought that was the case. But I don’t know
Phil Rickaby
for sure. Absolutely. So one of the things that’s changed. Is your the artistic producer at the Capitol Theatre?
Rob Kempson
Yeah, actually. And my title was just changed. I’m the artistic director of the Capitol Theatre. No, perfect.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah. So I mean, just because I think sometimes the nuances of artistic producer artistic director, these are titled maybe people don’t know the the nuance between them. What’s the what’s the difference between an artistic producer and an artistic director,
Rob Kempson
you know, I think that it is constantly shifting and really based on whatever each company is looking for. So I’m also one of the CO artistic producers of arc, which is a Toronto Theatre Company. And so I kind of feel like I put my foot into both of those worlds, ultimately, in a contemporary Canadian theatre setting, all artistic directors are doing all sorts of producing things. And I think what this initially was meant to reflect was, you know, that this position is much more than just selecting plays to put on stage and then making sure that they get on stage. You know, on any given day, I might be decorating a Christmas tree, I might be figuring out someone’s billet. I might be doing a Facebook post, I might be contracting. So you know, all of those sort of catch all things. And I think that the, when the board coasted for this position, they were just really looking to make sure that they found someone who had experience and abilities in those areas, in addition to the artistic stuff. And so I think I’ve kind of been an artistic director since the beginning. But it maybe took them a while to realise that and what’s been great is, is by now having that title, it ensures that the people in our theatre community aren’t confused about what my role is up in theatre.
Phil Rickaby
So sure, yeah. Now, speaking of that community, this is a gorgeous theatre. I haven’t been in it. I’ve been by it and just the exterior itself. It seems spectacular to me. This gorgeous Theatre in in Port Hope. Tell me a little bit about the Capitol Theatre.
Rob Kempson
Yeah, it’s a really interesting space. It was built as an atmospheric cinema in 1930. And it received Canadian Heritage designation in 2017. And so what’s really interesting inside the Capital is that because it was built as this atmospheric cinema you it’s kind of like the Winter Garden Theatre for folks who have been there, where you’re inside the set of something. And so our theme is a Normandy castle. And so there’s two huge, like mediaeval looking houses on either side of the stage. And the full surround is a cornice with all sorts of brickwork, and then a big, beautiful blue sky, that actually makes the room kind of echoey, which our sound designers don’t love. But it does go right up over the top of you. And so it functioned as a cinema until the mid 1980s, and then fell into disrepair when the original manager stepped away from the work. And then in the mid 1990s, a group of very dedicated volunteers, many of whom are still involved with the theatre, sort of renovated, rejuvenated, found a bunch of funding, and really made it into what it is today. So they added a bunch of apron to the stage, an orchestra pit, a rake. And those same volunteers have recently done an expansion that was completed during the pandemic, for a new rehearsal hall and a production studio and an expanded lobby space. So the theatre is that kind of a cool mix of, you know, 1930 heritage as well as these elements that were added in the past 100 years.
Phil Rickaby
Now, since that, I mean, had been operating as a theatre for a while. Is there a? Did you have a particular goal or mandate when you came in as the artistic producer slash artistic director?
Rob Kempson
Yeah, absolutely. The number one thing for me, you know, in my career is making sure that we’re supporting Canadian artists, that we’re supporting Canadian artwork, and that we’re helping to do what ultimately we are mandated to do, which is to share the arts and artistic processes with a community. And so what I was most excited about, in taking on this position at the Capitol was the connection to community. So the Port Hope is a town of 16,000 people, it is a very artistic town, it is very engaged, people are really involved in what happens in and outside of the region. And so this theatre is really, you know, at the centre of that activity, and what’s so exciting for me is to hear those traditions, to take on that legacy. And then to look at how I can move that forward. So you know, we’re never going to, I’m never gonna just do what has been done before, because it’s been done before. That’s not who I am as a leader, and certainly not who I am as an artist. And so, for me, it’s about taking that legacy on and then thinking about how I can move us forward, push that needle to a more progressive place. And so that balance is always at the heart of what I’m doing here. So if I’m going to give people something that’s familiar, I will present it with an unfamiliar twist. Or if I’m going to give people something unfamiliar, I will try to wrap it in something that feels familiar so that we can be having a conversation with their audience, rather than just appeasing them.
Phil Rickaby
I think that’s a really interesting distinction. The difference between having the conversation and appeasing as far as as the shows that you’ve that you’ve done at the Capitol so far, and this is probably not a fair question, because you know, artistic director, your, your love all of your babies. Is there a show that you’ve done? That was one that you were like, I’ve always been excited to do this? So this one’s my favourite. Is there one show that stands out like that?
Rob Kempson
I mean, you really hit the nail on the head, like they’re all my babies. And at the end of the season, this past year, I went on a little tour of Ontario theatres and saw a bunch of stuff at Stratford in shock. And the joy of making theatre is that everything, whether or not you’re the director of it is really close to who you are. So I will start by saying that but you know, this summer, we had a closer walk with Patsy Cline, stag, and DOE. And then our summer season finished with nine to five, the musical and nine to five is a show that I have loved for many years. I’m a huge Dolly Parton fan, I saw the original production on Broadway. And I just think that it has such a unique ability as Dali doesn’t all of her work to speak to people from a real diverse cross section of humanity. And so and we saw that in the theatre, and so it was a beautiful production. I’m very proud of what we did in terms of the design and production elements in the cast. But I’m actually mostly excited about the way that that conversation started with a community. So you see, you know, a newcomer to Canada, who’s just arrived in Port hook, who knows about Dolly Parton, who comes to that chokes and then you see someone who’s lived here for most of their lives, who’s also coming to that show. And then you see someone who just moved here during the pandemic, and all of those people have come to see 95 The musical and I think that any any production that can bring people together in that way is always going to be my most exciting work.
Phil Rickaby
I mean, you met you’ve mentioned A couple of times, sort of the makeup of Port Hope you mentioned, the conversation you’ve mentioned the town, you just mentioned different kinds of people who might have come to the show. Port Hope is I think I mentioned a gorgeous town in, in southern Ontario. I knew it for years without ever seeing it as I had family in Belleville. So it was like one of those markers as a kid, almost at Belleville sort of thing. But it is a town it’s main street is is very, it’s like a classic Main Street with all kinds of great little shops and things like that. Um, what is it that excites you about a place like poured hope for theatre?
Rob Kempson
I think that some of the best theatre in Canada, is happening in small places. And I think that, you know, the artistic leaders who are best able to use those small places as their audience base, do so by knowing how to listen to your audience, and also knowing how to not listen to your audience. So I could produce Mamma Mia every year from now until the end of time. And I would sell really well for the first little while, and then it would you know, Peter off a bit, but still be really good sales. That’s not a sustainable model. For us. It’s not a sustainable model for anyone. And the reason for that is because the demographics of this town, like everywhere else in Canada are changing and changed. And we’re not looking at towns that look like a whole bunch of people who are all the same anymore. That’s just not what a small town is. And so, in the same way that, you know, we think of Toronto as one of the most diverse cities in the world, Port Hope is remarkably diverse, and much more so than people might expect. And it is my job to serve all of those constituents, regardless of their age, or background, or sexuality, or demographic, or experience with theatre. And so what I really love about this kind of work, and what I’ve experienced as a freelancer working in lots of different small communities, is the ability for one’s work on stage to make a real impact in a community is much greater when that community is small. Because you can have people who don’t agree sitting beside each other, you can have people who don’t vote the same way sitting beside each other. And, you know, I go to enough Toronto theatre to know that I’m sitting in a room of people who are pretty similar to me, they might not look like me, it might be a different age than me. But you know, we’re not, we’re not attracting a whole bunch of people who vote differently than me. Whereas in Port, hope that very much as the cake, and in ganache layer where I’ve worked before, that’s very much the case. And in Sudbury, that’s very much the case. And so I think the power of theatres to actually make change and move that needle in a progressive direction, is significant in smaller places. And and I certainly love that I get to be part of that.
Phil Rickaby
Now, you mentioned sort of being in dialogue with the community and being able to speak to the community as it changes. How does a small theatre? How I mean, this might as a person who’s currently living in a large city, this might seem like a ridiculous question in a small town, but how do you keep on top of the changes to a town?
Rob Kempson
I mean, it’s about I think, actually just listening carefully, and responding. You know, poor Hope is the kind of town where on my very first day, I went to the social, which is a local restaurant, or glass of wine with my brand new colleague, Aaron Pierce, who’s the managing director here, and is absolutely incredible. And she and I were just having a glass of wine to like, meet each other, you know, really know what each other are. And at our table was a town councillor, who also runs that business, who with their partner also runs the media business that does our websites, and the person serving us was my next door neighbour in Waco. And that is not uncommon. So I think the way you find out about the community is by being in the community, and by making those connections and not being afraid to introduce yourself, you know, like I, I go into a restaurant and I know all the server’s names, because I’ve spent time trying to learn those things. Because that is good business for me or anything, but just because that’s how it is when you’re in a community of this side. And it also means that when I asked them to come to my show, they trust me in a different way. And they don’t always come back. And we have a conversation about it. And and so I think it’s about just actually listening. And as I go about my daily business, and I go about my work, that I make sure that I take the time to make those connections and ensure that they’re authentic connection. Because that’s the only way to have any theatre work is when you’re making authentic connections with people might come to you?
Phil Rickaby
Is that something that’s new for the Capitol Theatre to have that kind of inter, I’m not sure that I know enough of the history of the Capitol Theatre to know if having an artistic director who’s bringing shows in and doing shows during the season is new for the Capitol Theatre? And if there’s been that kind of dialogue in the community before. So I’m curious.
Rob Kempson
Yeah, we’ve got our history is really strange. And parts of it are pretty dark, and not great. And I’m not scared of talking about that. I certainly was all before me. But, you know, we’ve had some leadership that didn’t behave very well, we had some problems with harassment and assault, we had problems with sort of community conversations around that. And so in a nice starting and working with my colleague, Aaron, the managing director, we really focused on turning a new page, where we acknowledge all of those problems. And we also look at ensuring that those problems never happen again at the theatre. So that’s the boring stuff, you know, that people don’t, it’s not very sexy to talk about all the policy, right, or to talk about the way that you’re working at a board level to make sure that you put safety mechanisms in place, or what our policies are for, you know, review and performance review, and all that sort of stuff. But that those kinds of systems are the things that this theatre really was missing. So we did have some, some dynamic leadership in the past to, you know, certainly had an impact on the community. But I think the real place where that fell flat is by then not reinforcing that by creating sustainable systems within the organisation. And where Aaron and I have really put our focus is in making sure that the organisation is sustainable, by ensuring that we have appropriate staffing, by ensuring that we have appropriate policy that we have appropriate ticketing systems, all of that stuff to keep everyone in check, make sure that we’re accountable to our funders and our supporters, and really making sure that we’re accountable to our community.
Phil Rickaby
You mentioned that stuff not being sexy, but it is very important, like, oh, my gosh, what’s the most important? Yeah, because you know, those kinds of things that you’ve mentioned, they can just harm the reputation of a theatre or a company, they can destroy it,
Rob Kempson
will, and it’s, but it’s more than that, you know, for me, Upon arrival, there were certain things that I just expected would be true of a theatre that’s 25 years old. And those things were not true. And that’s not to blame anyone who was in this position before me, but it’s stuff that, you know, we need to get back on board with, and it doesn’t always show up well. And so it’s not the kind of thing you write a press release about. And that’s, that’s the part that I think is so fun about running a theatre of this size, is making those difference that make the running of it a lot better and a lot easier. And that people might not even know that we know, because instead of getting them that email, after several weeks, and turmoil and all the rest of it, we actually have a new system so that that email goes out to them, and that they get the communication they need really easily. So it’s, it’s those little bits and pieces. You know, when I started, we didn’t have subscribers, we didn’t have any public funding outside of our municipality, we had a staff of two, and I was one of them full time staff of two. And now we have a full time staff of seven, we have a brand new ticketing system, we have subscriptions, we have Eagle a much more engaged in positive volunteer base, we work with an incredible group of volunteers at the Capitol. And all of that stuff only happened because, you know, my colleague and I started sort of turning over rocks and saying, hey, could we do this better? Like I bet we could. So let’s figure out how we can make that happen. And you know, that has been the real journey of the past year for me.
Phil Rickaby
Now you are, at least as far as you were looking at your website and things like that you’re you’ve been primarily a director. And I do want to hear about your road to becoming a director. But as we’re talking about being an artistic director, what was the path to becoming an artistic director making the move from being primarily a director to somebody who’s making a creative decisions about about the theatre part, you know, directing as well, but like, being the artistic director of a theatre?
Rob Kempson
You know, Phil, this is a great question because I think people don’t know the difference between a director and an artistic director and they’re not even remotely associated with one another. In my head, so alongside being a freelance director for a number of years, and and also being a freelance writer for a number of years, you know, my actual bread and butter has been in working in arts administration. So I’ve worked in almost every department of nonprofit and contemporary professional Canadian theatre through various different organisations, and that is how I’ve learned everything that I know. So I I have a drama degree and a music degree. And that certainly, like set me on a path. But I have learned from some incredible mentors who allowed me access to what it is that they do to make their companies work. And so, you know, I worked at Katie and stage as the community relations manager and then the education manager under both Marty Bragg and Matthew Jocelyn. I then worked under Andy McKim. At theatre Pasmore is the Associate Artistic producer, I worked as the Associate Artistic Director at that I was I was Playhouse under Ashley Corcoran, where I learned a tonne, I ran my own company for a while I ran a Preca festival for a while. And so, you know, being an artistic director is, is having a vision. But it’s not a vision just for what you’re putting on stage and who you’re you’re hiring to do that. It really is about knowing all of the bits and pieces that go into making theatre, which is making that great budget and knowing how to stick to it, and knowing how to hire the right people to help you achieve that budget. And, you know, writing those donor letters and having those conversations with your funders and your municipality, and all of that sort of stuff. And, you know, I would say that as an artistic director, the thing that people see is when I launch a season, and the thing that people don’t see is the, you know, 12 or 14 months of work that went into launching that season. And that is the part that I actually really love, I find it super interesting. I know that lots of other artistic directors also find that part really interesting and fulfilling. But it is the thing that separates it from directing because, you know, to be a great director, you have to have a laser focus in exactly what’s happening in that rehearsal hall and in a moment to moment, so that you can get a great show on stage. But as an artistic director, you kind of have to have a soft focus where you’re kind of looking at everything all at the same time. And trying to make the best decision you can while leaning on hopefully an amazing team. Like
Phil Rickaby
it sounds like you. You’ve had some great mentors, as you’ve grown as a as an arts administrator. And in all of those roles that you’ve mentioned. I remember not so long ago, people lamenting about the lack of mentorship in the arts administration, which is why we would often hear people complaining about why do theatre companies look and bring in somebody from England or America or the US to, to to be the artistic director? What’s Why do we not have people here? What’s wrong with the people here? To do that? And I think that that, from what I’m hearing in, out in the world is that is that there’s more work to preparing the next generation of of artistic directors and artistic leadership. Is there a plan for you as far as your support and work to uplift the next artistic producer, director, the next leaders as far as the that your theatre or other theatres?
Rob Kempson
Yeah, I mean, the biggest problem, in terms of that trajectory in Canada, I really think is about scale. So, you know, it is a very rare place where one can go from being an assistant director to being an artistic director in a month. And that was my journey. At the end of 2021, I was an assistant director of the Shaw Festival, and the next day, I was an artistic director of the Capitol Theatre, obviously, those skills are different. But you know, that’s not necessarily a jump that should be able to be made. And I think that what we tend to do a bad job of is, you know, either launching people really quickly to hide positions, or big positions or big jobs that they maybe aren’t ready for, or making people sit for a while in a kind of emerging place where they kind of bumbling along for too long. And there isn’t any sort of upward trajectory. We also suffer from the fact that there aren’t a lot of mid size opportunities in Canada, right, we have a lot of really big and a lot of really small. And I don’t think that any of that is insurmountable. I think the biggest thing is, you know, being able to see strength in people who need to have their strength seen, and being willing to give people opportunities when perhaps other people haven’t. And so, you know, looking at a person not only from their resume and experience, but also from what they present in an interview setting or an audition. And so, I have an open door policy for assistant directors on all of my work. So we had two assistant directors this past year, we have one right now on the panto that we’re working on. We have two assistant directors next year. And I hope that people want to assist me and the other directors who I bring in so that we can all be sharing and learning from one another. I would love for us as a community to be able to access more funding to support this sent directing. But in terms of arts administration, you know, I actually think that one of the best things that you know, someone looking to grow in arts leadership can do is to work in a marketing department as a marketing coordinator, or, or work in a development department as a development coordinator for a while and see if you like it and see what you can learn from it, you know, my, I have a dear friend who is the Director of Development out yp T. And, you know, she’s brilliant at her job. I’ve known her since we were in university. And when we got out of university, she thought she was going to be a stage manager. And now she had been director of development at yp, T. And that’s because she took a job, and realise that she had skill in an area that she didn’t know she had skill in, she did some additional training, she got another job, she did some additional training, she got another job, and then, you know, you land here. And so I think, you know, theatre careers, we love to glorify actors a lot. I was an actor for about five minutes, I don’t feel like acting. But I don’t think that that makes me less than as an artist, I think that that means that I know where my lanes are. And they try to sort of live in those those lanes. And so I think what we can do a better job of, and certainly I’ve taught both at the high school and post secondary level quite a lot, is by making sure that we talk about arts administration as the really cool job that it is, and not just talking about actors or directors or writers, you know, talking about stage management and production and producing and making sure that people feel empowered by those artistic opportunities as well.
Phil Rickaby
Absolutely, I think there’s a lot of a lot of courses that are primarily about the the onstage portion. And occasionally, there’s a little bit of a side, occasionally, a little bit of a side directing, or like stage management, that sort of thing. It’s pretty rare to find a really robust course, that covers all of those
Rob Kempson
Well, and that’s why, you know, the work of generator is so amazing, a company that, you know, takes artists and helps them become really great producers and gives them those tools, you know, because they think the more that we can empower folks who are artistically minded to create and develop and produce their own work, the more that we might find that some of those folks who want to apply their creative minds to arts administration in a word, significant impermanent way. And that’s, that’s the way to grow the industry, because I think you’d think of it as being quite boring. But I can tell you having done lots of those jobs, that they’re really not and it’s a really great way for you to meet people and learn more.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, yeah. Now you mentioned preparing to do a panto at the Capitol Theatre. And this This episode will air in the new year so we’ll be out of debt. Great. Okay.
Rob Kempson
I thought so. I was like, like, finish it.
Phil Rickaby
Now. You don’t really like you don’t have to pitch it or anything. But one of the things that I think is so important about about about the Christmas Panto, the tradition of the Christmas pantomime is that for many people, that is their first exposure to to theatre. It is that moment that they that is the potential to make a new theatre goer.
Rob Kempson
Yeah, and import hope it’s a wildly important tradition. You know, we sell more tickets to the Panther than anything else. And I’ve never done a panto. Oh, that’s exciting, and the writers of this panel have also never written a panto. And that was on purpose, because, you know, I love the original sort of British tradition of a panto. And the way that that has sort of been adapted over time in this setting is that we have a family Panto, and then we have a naughty panto and the naughty Panto, as I understand it has gone pretty far off the rails in a way that I don’t think I could ethically stand behind, but also in a way that I think, challenges what I really believe theatre to be, which is an incredibly inclusive art form. You know, panto has often featured jokes that are made at the expense of marginalised people. Much like a lot of farce, that we’re sort of looking at it with new lenses these days, but you know, panto has lots of racism and misogyny and homophobia present in it. And I don’t think that those are the funniest jokes. And I think that we can make funnier ones that might mean that folks who identify in those marginalised groups actually feel like they can come to see the panto at the Capitol and be a tradition that they can take part in as well. And so we’ve actually gone out of our way to reinvent the panel this year. And so we look at all of the traditions of the Panto, and we sort of created our own version of those traditions and so you will still laugh your face off, you will still, you know, have lots have songs and dances and all the naughty jokes you’re getting, you know, shake a stick at, but they’re, they’re going to be inclusive. They’re just not phalange to use marginalised people as a punching bag. And to me that this kind of conversation with my community and with my audience, you know, I can do a naughty panto where we put in lots of swear words and people wearing very little clothing and make a bunch of sexist jokes, and a bunch of gay jokes. But like, as a gay person, I’m not going to feel great about putting that on stage, or am I going to feel great about putting those artists through that process of having to put that on stage? So we spent a lot of time I commissioned a brand new script from Colombia Nunez and her husband, Kevin Whelan. And, and, you know, what’s been really fun in the development and also really challenging is acknowledging the places where sometimes those panto traditions are there because they work really well. And so which ones of those do we need to keep in and sometimes they’re there in a way that we have some questions about. And so which ones of those we want to adapt? And, and how can we make sure that we are inviting those audiences both legacy audiences to the panto and new audiences to the panto in for a holiday tradition that they can then trust the Capitol Theatre around feeling like it’s a safe place for them to?
Phil Rickaby
I always felt I mean, it’s interesting, because I don’t think I have experience with the Children’s panto and the naughty pans.
Rob Kempson
No one does, because it’s not part of the British experience. It’s just something that a few small towns have invented.
Phil Rickaby
It’s just interesting, because to me, the most successful panels that I’ve seen are the ones where you, it’s for the kids, but you like the Muppets, you have a few you have enough in there for the adults to keep them entertained as white.
Rob Kempson
Yes. And that is, is what I thought we were making. And, you know, I quickly heard from my community, what the expectation is, and are naughty cantos are wildly popular. And so for me, that means, okay, like, where, where do we want to stretch those muscles? I like dirty jokes. I think that they’re funny, too. But I like dirty jokes that, you know, don’t come at anyone’s expense. I like any jokes that are just dirty. Yeah. And so we’ve created a base version of the Panto, which is sort of our family version, there’s, there’s some jokes in there that you know, hit hub of the kids heads and that kind of thing. And then we are taking an approach where we’re sort of setting different areas where we are allowing the actors to improvise, or we are allowing for a specific, switch out some lines to sort of dirty it up. But there’s a few things that we’ve done in it, that kind of already do that for us based on an audience suggestion that then rings true through the whole play. So I’m interested to see, you know, the the last ingredient for any show is an audience and that is never more true than at a panto because of how interactive it is. And so we’re going to learn a lot next week when we start previews. And, you know, I’ll I’ll learn even more about panto than I have already
Phil Rickaby
had super excited you’re very close to having people actually see it. Absolutely. Is there something that you’re excited to learn once the audience starts to experience it?
Rob Kempson
Oh, apps, literally everything? You know, I think the most specific thing I’m because I never done it before. So I might be terrible. I mean, I would only say that because I know this is airing in January. But I’m excited to see if the things that I think work really well received the same kind of response that I expect, you know, and I really like being in a place where and I tell my artists this all the time, you know, wherever you expect, there’s going to be applause in Ford hope at least three days a week, there won’t be that applause. Where wherever you expect there’s going to be a laugh at least three days a week, there isn’t going to be a lot. So we have you know, three previews, before we open, I’m certainly not going to be using those previews as the only test case audiences that we have. But I’m excited to with the actors and with his company, in general, find out more about what people really respond to, so that I can use that as information moving forward. And that can help us make even better Pentos in the future.
Phil Rickaby
That’s very exciting. I imagine there’ll be lots of notes taken over the run of of this particular banjo. Yeah, yeah,
Rob Kempson
I will have to see many Nazi performances to see where we where we want to.
Phil Rickaby
Now just to leave Port Hope and the Capitol Theatre for a bit. I’m curious. I’m always curious about people’s theatre origin stories and what brings them to where they are now. So for you What was your first exposure to theatre what made you want to do it?
Rob Kempson
i You No, it’s such a good question. I think I am sure this is not true. I’m sure my parents, if they listened to this will call me and tell me that this is wrong. But the first sort of significant memory I have of theatre is seeing Phantom of the Opera as is true of many folks, my. And my parents are not in any way artistic at all. My brother, similarly, no one in my family really is. And I, I was the kind of kid who like asked if I can play piano, and we didn’t own a piano, and my parents didn’t know anyone who played piano. So there was a, you know, I was kind of that black sheep right away. And I think my, my parents really recognised that and tried to make space for artistic experiences. So you know, we’d go see like one big show a year. And maybe that was later it was strapped for their shot, but early it was you know, Mirvish shows and I can remember going to see crazy three with my grandma and my mom and dad. And you know, that kind of thing. But Phantom of the Opera, I remember specifically, because I remember the magic in it. I remember feeling like, you know, when the sound design had the Phantoms voice all around the theatre, how, and I knew that the Phantom wasn’t there. But I loved that I got to feel that way. Like, I think that that was the thing that really hooked for me. And in terms of where I then took it and how it felt like it was sort of the right pathway was my sort of frenemy at elementary school, she had a weird, love hate relationship where our whole childhood would would take the little books, the lyric books that were included in the Phantom of the Opera soundtrack tapes into the tube slide at school when we were in grade six. And we wouldn’t let anyone slide down the tube slide because it had the best acoustics for us to sing the Phantom of the Opera. And of course, I was a boy soprano. And so I and I was, could have been much higher than she could. So I told her that I was going to play Christine always, and, and I just think that, for me, this sort of idea that, that theatre is yours, you get to hold on to it, and you can take it with you. And it and it is something that you get to then make or remake or reimagine is really exciting. And you know, in my career thus far, I’ve had the great fortune of having shows that have either toured or been remounted, or just to show that I’ve directed a couple of productions out, and the the ability to revisit something, once you sort of put a stamp on it and think about it in a new way. I think it’s so special. It just feels really exciting. So I think that kind of where that origin started.
Phil Rickaby
So as as, as Phantom of the Opera, that massive show being your first sort of experience of theatre, and I think like for a lot of people it sounds like, like because of that musical theatre was your gateway to the
Rob Kempson
absolute absolutely, you know, I loved singing and I was in lots of choirs, and I loved music. And it was definitely my my gateway in but it wasn’t ever. And I still don’t think this way. You know, sometimes if I am teaching in a school and I’ll say What’s your favourite play? And the students will say, Oh, can we say musicals? And I was like, Well, yes, of course, musical is a play. And so I bet my parents like Risa, Shakespeare too. And we saw, you know, contemporary plays, and we saw all sorts of stuff that wasn’t necessarily musical theatre, I think the the sort of size of musical theatre, the scale, the sort of wonder the, you know, inevitable fog, all of that sort of stuff is pretty fantastic to witness especially as a kid and especially as a gay kid to right, like, there’s nothing more can’t be been Phantom of the Opera. It’s like a dude who, you know, sits alone, surrounded by candles until a lady sings really high for him. Like, that’s the greatest thing in the world. So I think it’s probably also, you know, there’s a piece of that as well, that was responding to another part of
Phil Rickaby
the whole, like, the people asking if they can name a musical as their as their favourite play. Is that there is that, that some people want that separation in their minds, there’s like, they have their idea of the high art of Theatre and the low art of the musical or something like that.
Rob Kempson
Oh, for sure. I know, lots of people who think they don’t like musicals. And then, you know, I take great delight and when they realised that, oh, there isn’t musical they really like, and it might just be that they saw the wrong musical. And I think we have a problem. In general in the theatre community where an audience comes in sees one bad play and they decide they don’t like theatre, rather than they didn’t like that one play. And so I don’t know why we do that to ourselves as well. That seems a bit silly.
Phil Rickaby
Yeah, I can I have been sort of like, developing a bit of a theory about, about why that might be. I think sometimes in Canadian theatre, we, our media tends to celebrate things that are okay. They’re good. They’re not great. But because they’re good, they, they write about them as though they are amazing. And so then somebody who doesn’t usually go to the theatre goes to see a play. And it’s not this thing that was if they don’t see why people raved about it, and they then figure why guess I just don’t understand theatre.
Rob Kempson
I mean, I think that’s, I think that’s super valuable. I think there’s also, you know, we consume so much digital media, yeah, that moves way faster than theatre does. And so much like, when you go to the opera, or when you see Shakespeare, you have to tune your ear to it, it’s a different pace of an experience. And, you know, if we were to try to replicate TV, we do it badly. But I also think, you know, it is the job of artists to serve their community, because that’s why we have public funding. And so I do think it’s good to, as an artist, like make sure that you have some friends who don’t work in theatre, you know, my partner doesn’t work in theatre. And so he’ll tell me if I’m, you have something I’ve made his shitty, I mean, he’s not allowed to tell me that on opening night. But he’ll eventually tell me Yeah. And, and, you know, my parents will come to see everything I do. And like, none of these people have ever brought me flowers or cards, or is saying my praises, you know, that because they’re just normal people. And they’re like, Well, you did your job, great job, you, you completed the task, you know, and so I think it’s good to have some normies in your life, who can sort of come and sit beside you and be like, Oh, this part is weird. Why did you do that? You know, and, and just ask those questions. And sometimes I have a really good answer. And sometimes I don’t. And, you know, it’s great to have that sort of outside perspective to think about broader accessibility of our work and how we can invite people in rather than making them feel like they aren’t welcome.
Phil Rickaby
Well, I mean, I think that’s, that’s that we have all kinds of things that we do in the theatre that are pretty, like, if you didn’t know what they were you, you will be left in the dark. Sue Edworthy will often mentioned that we use PW yc. All over the place, as though somebody who’s never been to the theatre will know what that means. And we have all kinds of things like that, that we we just assume if somebody’s coming into a pizza PwC means
Rob Kempson
Portland kind of talk back Tuesdays or Relaxed Performances, or, you know, known completely, and I and I think sometimes I think there is a communist sign of a snob Enos and I say that just because I definitely have such as myself. So it’s me, calling out myself that I think we sometimes imagine that accessibility. And I’m not speaking specifically to accessibility. With Disability. That’s, that’s, you know, very, I think, in our community sort of heralded right now. But I think General Accessibility, like, do normal people like this, or are they interested in this? Or can you get them to engage with this? I think we sometimes look down our noses at that, because, you know, it is that difference of high and low art or whatever. But an audience is really important. And, you know, it doesn’t mean that everything you create has to have commercial value. But it does have to engage an audience. And or at least in my opinion, it does. And I think that that is something that I just spend a lot of time thinking about is is who are the people that are coming to this? Where am I giving them what they want? And where am I challenging them? And hopefully, I’m doing both things at the same time.
Phil Rickaby
I think you’re totally right, though about about needing to engage the audience. Because after all, if you don’t have an audience, you cannot have theatre, you need people in the room to experience it for it to be theatre. Otherwise, it’s a bunch of really sad people on a stage. Yeah. And I think that you’re right, that I think that that we do need to sort of like, figure out what does the potential audience wants to see it’s great if our theatre goers come and as long as our theatre goers keep coming, then great, but we still have that lament that we’ve had for the last 10 years of where is the audience going? And I think sometimes, we’re maybe afraid to dig too deep into why that is. I completely agree. And I also think that
Rob Kempson
I think that if, if we don’t do a good job of making sure that people want to come and see the thing that we’re making, then that’s on us. And, you know, we’ve significantly increased the production values and overall quality of the work of the Capitol in the past year. And we have seen how that affects audiences. Because in a community like this Word of mouth is huge. And so our trajectory this summer was significant based on what people saw. And they saw that it was good. And then they started telling their friends, and then the next show was even bigger. And then the next show was even bigger. And, you know, we saw that not because people were too lazy to buy their tickets in advance. Most people, I think capital buy their tickets in advance. But because we made really good shows that were really beautiful, and we didn’t take our audience for granted, you know, I, I’ve been in places where people say, Oh, they won’t notice, they will notice, they always will notice they don’t know necessarily how to describe it, or know exactly what the differences but they will definitely notice that
Phil Rickaby
I was I was an usher for a number of years at one of Toronto’s big Mirvish houses. And I could always tell when an audience leaving the theatre did not particularly enjoy the show. But because of how much they paid for the show, they felt like they were supposed to, yeah, and there are things that people say, when they didn’t if they liked the show, they’ll say that was a great show. If they didn’t like the show, they’ll say they did such a great job. And it’s so it’s so you can almost hear it, how there’s, they’re not raving.
Rob Kempson
But But what is interesting, also, I think, is that, to some degree, those people have the understanding of the difference between quality and taste, which is huge. And that’s something that I spend a lot of time talking about in this community, which is like, I hope I produce things that some of you don’t like, that means I’m doing my job really well. And I also hope that after you’ve seen them, there is no doubt in your mind that they are of a high quality. But that doesn’t mean you’re going to like them, that just means that they’re of a high quality, taste is different than quality. And I think that, you know, to some folks that that message will never get through, but to some folks it really has. And we’ve had really interesting conversations where people said, you know, I don’t think that was my thing, but you did a really good job of it. And what a cool way to have gotten in that’s my favourite thing to do is to go see work and talk about what’s wrong with it, or how I would fix it or what I would do differently. But that doesn’t mean I didn’t enjoy myself and in seeing the work. That’s the whole thing. Now those
Phil Rickaby
are important conversations, those are conversations that you kind of want people to have you want people to I mean if somebody is wit is is passionate enough about the work to dissect it, then you’ve done something good
Rob Kempson
completely completely. That is That is my my dream and wish and sometimes what has I have achieved here?
Phil Rickaby
You’ve been at the Capitol Theatre in the artistic producer slash now artistic director role for about just over a year now. Is that right?
Rob Kempson
Yeah, just over a year.
Phil Rickaby
So how much how much of your time is spent in Port Hope? And how much back in Toronto? Are you like 100% in Port Hope these days?
Rob Kempson
It really depends on the time of day. My partner is an urban planner for the City of Toronto. So we have a place in Toronto and we also have a place in Fort hope. And so right now I’m in Mike, we’re hopeless because we’re in rehearsals for the Panto, once the banjo opens, I’ll probably you know work remotely from Toronto for a couple of days and take a bit of a break from being here every day. And, you know, for me, it feels like the best of both worlds I get to live in a small town and you know, have that sort of community experience that I really find attractive. And also, I get to come back to Toronto, and to be honest, I spend a lot of time in Toronto is going and seeing shows, you know, that that my colleagues have created and in trying to, to make sure that I still get to see the work that is being produced in the city. And I think a lot of people in this community who maybe exclusively live here, do the same kind of thing. Now a lot of folks you know, go into Toronto to see shows as well. And what a what a great gift and a blessing for me to be able to create work in Port Hope for audiences and work out but also to be working with Ark and get to create. We’re for audiences in Toronto, in Toronto, and so that balance is really fun.
Phil Rickaby
I think it is so great for a place to have a theatre putting on good shows locally, so that yes, they can go to Toronto to see a show. But they can also walk down the street and see a show that there’s a homegrown show essentially, yeah, in their own town, which I think people outside of Toronto don’t often get
Rob Kempson
no and and you know, I grew up in in Kingston, and, and there there isn’t a main professional theatre in Kingston that exists and so, you know, it is it was very much like Well, I’d have to go to Gan aqui to 1000s Playhouse or I’d have to go to draw like that was sort of what we did. And I I I have great affinity for Toronto, I’ve lived there a tonne, but I’ve also like lived in the woods and lived in all sorts of weird places, making theatre. And, you know, I think that when you have an engaged community, who want to be in artistic conversation with you, there just is no greater gift than that. It’s really it is such a great place to create work, when you know that people are going to have thoughts about and they’re going to tell you them for sure. I often joke in rehearsals about all the emails that I’m gonna get. And, and I and I love that I really I really do.
Phil Rickaby
Well, it’s better. It’s better that than apathy, right? Other people are engaged and they have an opinion. What more could you ask for?
Rob Kempson
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. When whenever we do think doing that people might be mad about that one, but, but it’s fun to under see.
Phil Rickaby
Rob, thank you so much. I can’t think of a better place to end a conversation than right there. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Rob Kempson
Oh my gosh, Phil, thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to chat.
Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcasts, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings helps new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to Phil rickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at Stageworthy pod and you can find the website with the complete archive of all episodes at stageworthy.ca If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Phil Rickaby and as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com. See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy