#339 – Joseph Zita

Joseph Zita (he/him) is a Toronto based actor, singer, and theatre artist. He was born in Guatemala City, Guatemala, and grew up in Mississauga, ON. Select Theatre Credits include: The Antipodes (Coal Mine Theatre), Peter Pan (Neptune Theatre, Halifax), Lilies; Or, the Revival of a Romantic Drama (lemonTree Creations/Why Not Theatre/Buddies in Bad Times), Picture This (Soulpepper), Richard III (Shakespeare BASH’d), Kitsault: A New Canadian Musical (Staged Reading – Al Green Theatre), In the Heights: In Concert (We Are Here Productions), Beauty and the Beast: In Concert (Angelwalk Theatre), and several new works for the Toronto and Hamilton Fringe Festivals. Film/Television: Locke and Key, Firehouse Dog, Mayday. When not on stage, Joseph is quite active behind the scenes, and is currently serving his fifth term on the Board of Directors for Shakespeare in the Ruff. He holds BFA in Acting from the University of Windsor, and has also studied at the Stella Adler Studio in New York City.

Twitter: @josephzita
Instagram: @josephzita

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Transcript

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Phil Rickaby
I’m Phil Rickaby, and I’ve been a writer and performer for almost 30 years. But I’ve realised that I don’t really know as much as I should about the theatre scene outside of my particular Toronto bubble. Now, I’m on a quest to learn as much as I can about the theatre scene across Canada. So join me as I talk with mainstream theatre creators, you may have heard of an indie artist you really should know, as we find out just what it takes to be Stageworthy.

If you want to support the work that I do want Stageworthy You can do that by leaving a tip either as a one time thing or on a recurring monthly basis. Your support helps me cover the cost of making this show helps expand the show and more. You can find a link to the digital tip jar in the show notes which you can find on your podcast app or at the website at stageworthy.ca. Now on to the show. My guest this week is actor singer and theatre artist Joseph Zita. We talked about growing up in Mississauga as a Guatemalan adoptee how Disney movies led him to the theatre and some surprising full circle moments in his acting career. We also talked about his theatre origin story, what it means to be an emerging artist, the trials and tribulations of theatre school, and how a summer at the Stella Adler school in New York City changed everything for him. Here’s our conversation.

In your bio you describe yourself as a Toronto based actor, singer and theatre artist. This is gonna be one of those one of those questions that’s like, a little difficult for you. You have actor singer. So what is the difference between actor and singer and theatre artists? What’s the what’s that? The theatre artists part of it.

Joseph Zita
I mean, the theatre artists part of it is something I’m constantly figuring out negotiating myself. Um, but basically, for me, that just means like, I am open to whatever other possibilities of working in the theatre there are outside of being specifically an actor or specifically a singer. It’s kind of we had a teacher at university who would call it theatre practitioners. So it’s in that same sort of flavour. It’s more just indicating a love of the theatre and a willingness to sort of be a part of it and its creation in whatever forms that may be. Sure. Absolutely.

Phil Rickaby
It’s similar to just being like, what were people, a theatre maker or something like that? Right? Exactly. Yes. Yeah. As far as as far as that aspect goes, do you see yourself? Because I often think of that kind of thing. As like creation of your own work or things like that? Is that something that you that you are doing, have done? Or see yourself doing?

Joseph Zita
I’m vaguely see myself doing? Yes. In what, in what capacity? I’m not entirely sure at the moment. I have ideas in my head that I’d like to maybe write at the moment, but I don’t really fancy myself a writer, like my strengths are as an actor. So I, I, it’s like, I don’t know how to describe it better than I’ve got like, like, specifically to sort of give you a specific example, like, I am adopted. And and so many people are like, well, you should like you should write a show about like, your adoption story. And I’m like, I know, I know that I should, I just don’t know what I’m going to say. And I’m sort of in the thick of figuring out that story for myself. So I think once that story is more processed for myself, I will have a better time writing something. But until that day comes I’m not like putting a fire under myself to like, write something tomorrow. You know what I mean?

Phil Rickaby
I do want to talk to you about about that, because as the brother have adopted siblings, it’s something that you know, the the, the adoption story, I think some people like, oh, it’s gotta be so exciting. And you’re part of the adoption story probably is not the you you were eight months old when you came to Canada. Yeah. So you probably don’t have a lot of memories about that part.

Joseph Zita
No. And it’s so funny. I mean, the brain is a wild thing. And something that I’m learning first of all, I love that we share this connection of being part of an adoptee families. That’s really cool. So you’re you’re going to understand so much already what I’m going to say. But what was really fascinating that I’m only learning on my own journey is that like, we form as individuals and our neural logical synapses are formed so intensely in the first few years of our lives. And I know that when my parents were adopting in the 90s, they sort of thought that, oh, it’s a baby, it’s going to be a total blank slate. As it turns out, we are neurologically attuned to our birth mothers, as early as being in the womb from from that part of our animal brain. That’s like, I must be attuned to this primary caregiver. And if I am not, I’m going to be eaten by a wolf and die. So it’s really it’s really fascinating. I don’t have like specific memories of my early adoption. But as I pieced together my own story and hear the stories that were told, you know, from my parents, and my grandparents, I’m like, oh, like, my body remembers this somewhere in there. And it’s really, it’s really weird to be processing that, but there is something empowering, you know, they say so much in theatre in any sort of life that, you know, so many things are out of your control, some of the time, it has nothing to do with you. And here’s like, a chunk of my life that is so influential to me, that really has nothing to do with me, but has like, impacted me in such a massive way.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, absolutely. My parents always describe they would say that adopted children grow up with a hole in their heart. Yes. Because they, you know, they know they have a family, they know that family loves them. But there’s that, that that piece, that’s something that is like, almost, I think, for both my brother and my sister, there’s that question of, of why was I given up that sort of thing, right? And it doesn’t matter how much love a family pours into the adopted child, that question is always going to remain. And so it’s, it’s something that sort of shapes the experience and sets the adopted child aside, or makes them a little bit different from a naturally born child. 100% 100%. And it’s something that I think that that has to be understood by the parents, the siblings, and everybody who’s in that family. Otherwise, it can, when that child goes looking for their birth family, or their birth parents, it can cause real harm to like, there can be feelings of jealousy and things like that with if if they’re not prepared for the fact that this is the child trying to find that missing piece.

Joseph Zita
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Your viewers obviously can’t, your listeners rather can’t see me, but I’m like, nodding like ferocious ly, to this. It’s wild, and I’m starting to, I’m starting to process that particular part of my story. It’s, it’s kind of shocking to discover that you’re grieving a parent that you never knew, and that you’ve been grieving this parent for your whole life. I mean, similarly, similarly to what you’re saying about, you know, the hole in the heart. Like, my, my metaphor, my version of that metaphor has been like, I feel like, you know, I’m trying to swim across the shore that’s right in front of me to the beach across the way. And no matter how hard I swim, I just can’t, you know, get far away from the shoreline. And as I’ve gotten into like this, like, deep personal work on myself, I’m realising, oh, it’s not because I’m not a strong enough swimmer. It’s because I’m, I’m tethered to like this, what I thought was a rock. And as I as I dig deeper and deeper, it’s actually this like, massive boulder under the sand of like, grief. So of course, like, no amount of swimming is gonna, like get you there. It’s this like, thing that you’ve that you’re unearthing that you’re that you’re discovering that you that you’ve always carried, but never really acknowledged if that makes any sense.

Phil Rickaby
Absolutely. It makes perfect sense. The the the, the you were adopted for an agency based in Stratford, Ontario, was your family in or around Stratford? Or were that was that just where the agency was? That’s

Joseph Zita
just where the agency was my, my both my parents are Italian Canadian. They’re first generation. So their parents emigrated to Canada to Etobicoke in the late 50s. So they grew up in that little pocket of Italian Canadians in Etobicoke. And sort of laid the roots in Mississauga, I don’t know, specifically, why Stratford. But at the time, as I understand it, there were a lot of Guatemalan children who were being put up for adoption. We were lucky enough to grow up with a set of siblings in elementary school who were also a Guatemalan add up to us and they were adopted from the same agency. It doesn’t exist anymore, but it’s it’s if I got I wish, I wish I looked up the name of it. If you know this, 711 on Stratford by like, the hospital, it’s like kitty corner from there. And, yeah, it’s like, for whatever reason, that was the agency that they settled upon. And me, my brother and my sister were all adopted from that agency. For me, it’s particularly poignant, because I’m like, Well, of course, a person pursuing theatre would be adopted out of an agency based in Stratford. Like, it’s, it’s poetic, right that.

Phil Rickaby
Now, did you when the one of the things it’s always sort of interesting is like, and this is one of the questions that my mother was always questioning as, as, as my brother and my sister myself, grew older, it’s that question of nature versus nurture, or the combination of the two, right? Yeah. And so seeing one of my siblings, my sister who, my late sister who, who never really, who fought so hard, and was so to put it bluntly, she was difficult. She was a difficult person to have as a sibling. And my parents often wondered, like, what is going on? We’re, this is a child that we are treating the same as the other two. And then they met her birth mother. Yeah. And everything fell into place. And they were like, Okay, so there’s, it’s not, there’s an aspect you can give a child everything, but something in the nature also also takes effect. Now the what I’m leading to is, was your adopted family, in the arts? Or is that something that came from your nature,

Joseph Zita
I’m gonna go on a whim and say, it totally came from my nature. my adoptive family has always been very supportive about me being in the arts, but they are very practical, you know, of the Earth Kind of people. I kind of as like, the artistic queer person in the family, I sometimes feel like I kind of elude them, because I’m this like, person that they don’t always know what to do with it. But yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna go on a whim and say that is kind of within my nature.

Phil Rickaby
When When did you feel when I mean, we’re sort of like heading towards my favourite question about the theatre origin story. But when did that start to surface for you?

Joseph Zita
It surface very, very, very early. And I can’t specifically say when but I loved Disney growing up. You know, like, my parents would always say, like, you put Joseph in front of the TV with a Disney movie, and he is happy as a clam. And it got to the point where like, I would like, act out the Disney shows, like I remember, like, my parents would have their friends over. And I’d say, wait, I want to like perform the Little Mermaid for you guys. So me at three in my basement with like, makeshift costumes, just like acting out all the characters for them. And, yeah, it I again, I it wasn’t like my parents did that. I think it was some part of my nature that just sort of jumped out and said, hey, you need to do this.

Phil Rickaby
Now, what were the the, I imagine I’m imagining that you were growing up at the time you were watching Disney films, at the time that the, during the Beauty and the Beast era, the Ashman era of the of, of Disney films, which are all because of the team that was writing the music are so close to musical theatre anyway. Are those the films that you were growing up with

Joseph Zita
100% 100% and I’m gonna, I’m gonna sort of jump into my theatre origin story because it is kind of all connected. And it’s funny that you mentioned buting the beast because that was like, one of my favourite VHS tapes growing up. And, you know, I was just old enough at the time when the Canadian production was here. That you know, my parents were like, all right, like, beauty. The beast is playing live downtown at the Princess of Wales Theatre. Let’s take Joseph to see a live theatrical show. Um, so I must have I think I was for I either saw, I either saw the second cast, it was it was Steve Blanchard and Melissa Thompson. And they sort of were middle of the run and closed out the show. So I either saw it like middle of the run or end of the run in Toronto. But um, I remember like flashes of that show like I was just enthralled by it. And there’s this moment in at the end of Act One, where the castle spins around. And the beast comes out in his like, belting the end of if I can’t love her run out, right, and the lights come down, the curtain comes down. And I remember just sitting there like totally in awe and being like, oh my god, Mommy, I want to do that. So you could imagine I wore out that cassette tape of like, the original cast recording and just like saying it over and over and over again. And like, I just I live for that it was such a formative experience for me, I could fully trace my theatre career back to that moment.

Phil Rickaby
It’s interesting, because, you know, there’s all kinds of kids, there’s all kinds of Disney kids who grew up into Disney adults, you know, and they didn’t go into musical theatre, but they maybe didn’t see that magical live production as a child, you were four. I was four. That is that is the time to like, put the live theatre thing into a child’s brain, which is why things that the holidays are so important, right that those live shows that we take the one time of year that we’re like, we’re taking the kids to the theatre, so important to do it then. But that show no wonder it was so formative. Um, I know you, you mentioned about there being some full circle moments. So tell me about the full circle from your theatre origin story?

Joseph Zita
Oh, I mean, well, there’s a couple there’s a couple of so that I think that the first for me was a couple years ago, Angel walk theatre did a buting the beast in concert, raising money for a cancer charity. And Brian Goldenberg had invited me to be a part of that. And thought, it’s I have hopes that I will be in a full production of Beauty and the Beast one day, but there was nothing quite like, you know, like Bruce Tao is in that company. Paul Wolfson. And they were both part of the company that I saw all those years ago. So to sort of like, be on stage with them, and to be listening to Paula sing, like Beauty and the Beast with like, a full, like, orchestra. It was one of those moments where it’s like, Oh, my God, like, this can’t be more kismet, like I you know, like, and I don’t take that for granted. I’ve been very lucky to have those types of full circle moments in my life that have been like, the little tidbits and kernels of like, keep going keep doing this, like this is this is your path. But for that to be manifested so poetically, like that, I was really like, I remember, like, holding back tears at that, like dress rehearsal, because it was just so moving to be like, Alright, I’m doing it. I’m actually doing the thing that I set out to do.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, yeah. Now, we mentioned the, you know, seeing that, that production when you were so young, and sort of saying, I want to do that, but it’s one thing to go from being four years old, and saying, I want to do that, to growing up and, and realising that you, you can do this, this, this can be a job, it can be a career, at what point did that happen for you? When did you figure out that, that, that, that kind of performing? It’s a thing that you can actually do?

Joseph Zita
I think I must have, like, figured it out, like figured it out, when I saw the Lion King at the Princess of Wales Theatre. And like, you know, there was like, the young Simba there, and I remember I was like, Oh, my God, like, that’s something I want to do, right? And just sort of seeing that, like, you know, like, hey, somebody like me can be on stage as well. So I like, you know, my parents had put me in, like, acting classes and singing classes through elementary school. And, and very briefly, I was like, I was also a, like, recreational figure skater. But around like, age, I think I must have been 11. I had done an acting camp with the Toronto Academy of acting. And the camp sort of like, was sort of a, it was an introduction to the curriculum that they had. And they had like, like, three levels of like, audition, coaching and scene study for the camera. And they had like an agency connected to them at the time. And it was sort of sold as like, well, if you like this camp, then like, we have all these training courses that you can do as well. And at the time, it was kind of like, well, you know, you, my parents were like, you can only really choose one like, do you want to keep figure skating? Or do you want to, like pursue acting more seriously, and I was like, acting without questions. So I did all of these like Horses and live for it and loved it and love being on camera I was I, in hindsight, I realised I was a bit of a shy kid. So acting was kind of an opportunity for me to find my voice and find it in a way that I might not necessarily have known how to have a voice in real life. So it just, it really just, like lit me up and set me on fire. And, and I was lucky, really, really lucky that the agent connected to Toronto Academy of acting, agreed to sign me on after I think two sessions. So I sort of, I got I got involved in child acting around the age of 12.

Phil Rickaby
Very briefly, it didn’t, it didn’t destroy your love of acting.

Joseph Zita
It didn’t know if anything, it set the fire under me even even more intensely. I never I never really went as far as you could with child acting. I was. I was on an episode of Mayday. I was in the movie firehouse jog, starring little known named Josh Hutcherson from The Hunger Games, but I never really, you know, had like the Degrassi career or I never had like, like, massive long contracts. And by the time that, you know, by the time I got to high school, I think my family and I sort of agreed, you know, let’s let’s focus on on school and, you know, I had gotten into Cawthra Park Secondary School in Mississauga, it’s there, the Arts High School in Mississauga. And, you know, we had like, musicals and chamber choir and like dance and and I just, again, I got my feet wet there, I got involved in whatever I could. So it was, it was clear to me in grade nine that I could come back to professional acting that I wanted to sort of have fun in high school and immerse myself in as much as I could. While I was at an art High School.

Phil Rickaby
Now, not only did you go to the Art High School, but then you you went on and you know, you did the the theatre school thing. I think you went to University of Windsor. Yes. And then you went to the Stella Adler school in New York, yes. Now, as a kid from Mississauga, or, you know, growing up Mississauga, going or Etobicoke Mississauga, that sort of thing like the west end of Toronto. When you go to a school in New York, what is what’s that experience like to sort of like jump from the GTA into sort of like, living for part of the year in New York and going to school?

Joseph Zita
Oh, my God. I mean, I can’t speak for everybody but for me it again, it lit the fire underneath me. I, I I’ll be honest, I had I had a great time at Windsor. I learned a lot at Windsor. And I also struggled a lot at Windsor. The the programmes training is spectacular and it’s thorough, you know, you do Shakespeare you do scene study, you do movement, viewpoints, device composition. It’s a really, really great training ground at the time. There were certain I’m gonna go on a limb and say like old guard professors who chose their favourites and made it very clear who their favourites were early on in the training process. And their favourites were not clear brown boys like me. So it was it was really, really tricky. And I remember I, I was a young 19 year old and I was very, very passionate about theatre school, and very passionate about theatre, but I hadn’t really figured myself out. And I think in hindsight, if I could, like, go back and tell teenage Joseph to like, do two years of like life experience before doing theatre school, I would because it is really intense. And you do have to have a certain degree of like, knowing yourself to sort of weather the storm. But because I was a young 19 year old, I hadn’t figured out my work ethic and I hadn’t figured out specifically why why theatre at the time. And in hindsight to I was kind of a musical theatre boy in, in a classical theatre world would I would I change that at all? Absolutely not. I I am very much am an actor first but all that is to say at 19 I hadn’t really figured everything out and I think that was to my to my discredit you know, the these teachers see you and unfortunately they make really harsh judgments about you early on. And you know, if you’re not, you know, the straight white Shakespeare boy that is seen as you know, going to be the star it can be a bit of an uphill battle and I certainly like I never really left that programme feeling like anybody on that faculty was like, Yes, Joseph. Absolutely. Joseph is going to do this. But to sort of circle it back to your question. I think that made me hungrier for more that made me You know, I was lucky in the summer between second year and third year to do a training course at the Stratford Academy at Stratford Festival, led by Catherine MacKinnon, and Ian Watson, God rest his soul. He is like, one of my favourite teachers ever. And it really it was the first time I felt people actually like, believe in me, like to go from Windsor and to have these traumatic experiences with our Shakespeare teacher there and to feel like I wasn’t really worth anything in the programme. And then to have like Ian Watson, at the Stratford Festival be like, No, you’ve got this, you need to do this, like you have it. Like you have the gift nursery go forward with it. It just kind of set this like, fire under me of like, oh, I can do this. I do have worth in this theatre industry. So all that is to say it, it prompted me to look look for other programmes. And I was really, really drawn to the Stella Adler school, because they had a music theatre programme that lasted for the summer with a really, really exceptional faculty. People like Andrea burns from the heights, Peter Flynn, who is a very well established director, Devin on janky, who is a Canadian himself. Donna Murphy it was like a masterclass teacher like it was really such a spectacular faculty and one of the students in the year above me at Windsor had done it the summer before and she was like, you have to do this Joseph, this is absolutely for you. So my my first day in New York as an adult was I had landed the night before I was staying on a friend from high school was couch who was studying at pace down there. I lottery read book of Mormon and won the lottery. I got rush tickets for Bridges of Madison County and got like one of the last ones and then like, jumped in the cab, went right down to the sell our studio did my monologue and song audition cuts. And then like, carried back just in time for the Book of Mormon matinee. And it was really just this, like, magical weekend of like, oh my god, yes, like seeing theatre, seeing the Adler campus and just being like, this is like, this is, this is where I want to be, this is what I want to do. And a couple days later, I got the call from admissions saying that I had gotten in, and I was thrilled. And it was it was really, really an exceptional summer it was, you know, like, like, the faculty was incredible that the programme was unique in that it was geared towards like, actors who sing. It wasn’t about like scrout the highest or, or kick your face the most intensely. It was really like, you know, I mean, you know, we had like Donna Murphy come in for like a masterclass who is like, I think one of the best singing actors, there is a full stop, you know, and she would be like, you know, sometimes all your songs needs is just a scene partner. So she’d like, act our songs with us, like, I think Joanna and like, she was up on like, a chair across the room. And I was like, singing Joanna with her as my scene partner. And, you know, Joanna Gleason came in the week after and was like, you know, like, remember my mantra, I cannot guarantee my voice How could I, you know, it was it was all like using sort of acting fundamentals as a means of storytelling through song. And I got I got so much out of that, that that intensive, I built like lifelong friendships there. And like, sort of like living and breathing New York Life like class from 10 to six rehearsals in the evening shows whenever we can squeeze them in, like fitting in as much of the season as we possibly could, I think I must have seen like, 20 shows that summer. And, you know, getting to like, live on the energy of New York. In like one of our last classes, Andrea burns, said something like New Yorkers are born all around the world. And they find their way to the city because they’re meant to be there something is drawing them there and calling them there. And that that has always kind of resonated with me about that experience. And about my time there and it really just like, I mean, that was between my third and my final year of theatre school, so to like, have that like formative experience and like launching me right into like, my last year of like final performances and Like, you know, grad recital and all that, and sort of transitioning to industry, it was like, the bolts of fresh air that I needed. So I carried a lot of New York energy with me back home.

Phil Rickaby
Well, that’s, I mean, that’s really interesting. Because there’s, I can see if I had done if somebody in my class when I was in theatre school, because, you know, it was a long time ago, and we had a lot of that old guard, teacher with the attitude of we’re going to our job is to break you down and then build you back up. And they do a lot of breaking you down. And not a lot of the building you back up. But I think that if, if any of us had done like the, the that way, you didn’t go to New York and do like this thing, and then come back with like, that kind of confidence. I don’t think they would have appreciated it with so because in some ways, I feel like the theatre school experience that I had, was keeping us on eggshells through our our whole time. And then letting us go into the world with all of the anxiety and all of the all of the there’s lots of people who finish that the programme and just bailed on the whole career. Yeah, like, because it was that kind of experience. Yeah. So I think it’s amazing that you went between your your, your, your you’re going to school in the final year, because that that you had the experience of being like, told that you’re good, which means that those teachers who didn’t agree with that, we’re now faced with Oh, our opinion, isn’t everything. Right. So you carry that through that confidence, right?

Joseph Zita
Yeah, I’m gonna go on a limb and say if I hadn’t done those experiences, I think my my last couple years at Theatre School might have been very, very different. And I wouldn’t go as far as saying that I wouldn’t have a career right now. But I am still certainly working through the myriad of traumas that those old guard teachers have given me Believe me, I still hear one of them in my my mind’s ear all the time. But I wouldn’t go as far as saying that I wouldn’t have a career, but I think I was able to sustain myself through the last couple years of my undergrad because of those experiences. And like you said, because I had the experience of someone saying, No, you’re good. I think I think I honestly think, you know, I agree with you, you know, the schools used to focus on tearing you down, but they would never actually build you up. And and I actually think that I think that it’s healthy to be told your worth. And I think it’s healthy, to be reminded of what you have to offer, you know, the world The world is hard enough as it is, without somebody telling you that you’re shit every day in class. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think people grow the most and safety and people grow the most in in feeling like they are seen and valued and appreciated. And I’m certainly you know, the way that I grew best.

Phil Rickaby
I’ve said for years, because a lot of us who were in that programme at that time, twice a year, they would cut people from the programme once a Christmas and one at the end of the, the end of the season. So you spent the all year the entire time afraid that you were going to be one of the ones who unless you were one of the favourites? Yeah, we had those favourites, too. And then I always I’ve said since like, how can you be expected to, to be creative? When as far as you’re concerned, you are fighting for your life and you’re afraid every day that’s not conducive to creativity. So it’s something that I still think I I need to do some checking, because I don’t know how Theatre School is now. And I’m hoping it’s changed.

Joseph Zita
I’m hearing I’m hearing that it’s different. And again, I’m like you I don’t have like direct information. But But knowing some of the people that are teaching they’re like, like Eva Berry, one of my colleagues that Shakespeare in the rough. She’s teaching it like Sheridan and Tmu and George Brown, and I’m like, Oh my God, those kids are so lucky to have you teaching them Shakespeare. And like what a gift that is because you are the antithesis to the old guard pedagogy.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, I actually wanted to ask you about because you mentioned wanting to build a teaching practice. Yeah. I want to where does that the desire to teach? I assume acting? Yeah. come from and, and tell me about using trauma informed pedagogy involved in in the actors training?

Joseph Zita
Absolutely. I mean, it comes down to sort of everything that we were talking about just now, you know, when I look back on my theatre school experience, in hindsight, I realise I mean, obviously, you know, as an add up T with the amount of like, complex post traumatic stress just shorter that I was carrying that informed my theatre school experience. And I think about some of the notes that I would get in class, well, you’re not breathing, you’re not breathing. You’re frozen. You’re you’re you’re zoning out? Well, I’m dissociating. And I’m not breathing because I’m in a freeze response. And I’m in a freeze response, because my body is triggered in the state of like, fight or flight, probably because I was carrying around the fear of like, survival that you talk about, right? Like, am I gonna get kicked out of the programme? Am I am? Is my work good enough? Am I creative enough? You know, none of those from from from a trauma informed perspective, none of those conditions are actually conducive to neurological safety. And, you know, for anybody who is base level nervous system, that is true. And for people who have endured complex trauma, that is like doubly true, and I wish, I mean, you come to things when you come to them, You, you, you learn things on your time, but I do wish that like, some mentor, at the time had had the foresight to be like, oh, like, this is actually how we can bring out the best in Joseph, you know, like, this isn’t because he’s not breathing hard enough. This is because some part of him is trying to protect himself from a triggered part. And, and I’m so passionate about the craft of acting, and I’ve experienced a lot of exceptional actor training, and I’ve experienced a lot of like, dreadful actor training. So I think my impetus to become a trauma informed teacher is to sort of give back to the world what I didn’t necessarily get as a teenager. And, you know, since we’re, you know, having such a big reckoning with, you know, diversity in our theatres and making the theatre community more equitable, and, and more of an open door to people from different backgrounds, you know, I think it’s so important that we, that we set those people up for success by giving them the tools that will benefit the most. And, you know, I am no expert in trauma, I only know what I know. But you know, if you’re, if you’re coming to something like theatre, from a background of being queer, or from the background of being marginalised, or bipoc, or trans, you’re going to be carrying different traumas that your, that your well adjusted, straight, white cisgender classmates aren’t necessarily going to have. And it’s, it’s, I think, important that as we’re making theatre, more inclusive and welcoming, we’re also setting up these these students who might come from different backgrounds to succeed with the tools that will actually make them feel safe in the classroom and, and make them find their creative voice. And I just, I personally don’t believe you’re going to get that by telling them their shit every day and comparing them to an example student who didn’t have to carry the burdens that they carry.

Phil Rickaby
You can also layer onto that. neurodiversity. Whether somebody is on the autism spectrum, whether they have ADHD, or a combination of the two, or dyslexia or something else like that, like these are things that also add to add to that make people feel like both the theatre school and the industry isn’t for them. Yeah. Yeah, I’ve been thinking for a while about about the idea of, you know, how do you bring people into a rehearsal process and make it useful for them so that everybody is, so that is not a power trip for the director or the producer, but we find out what each person in the room needs to succeed? Yeah, and how can everybody hear contribute to that? And it’s a conversation that I think can help, can can evolve, both people who are who are neurodivergent people who are black, or people of colour or indigenous or, or, or, or like, all of these, all of these, the these these different situations where somebody can, can actually voice what they need in in this moment in this production, to succeed at it and sort of everybody makes the commitment that we all work for that. Absolutely. And I wonder if that’s something that like, I think about like in theatre school, if we’d had something like that, instead of we were afraid we’re literally I think, afraid to show ourselves Yeah. Because we needed we were told that we needed to be a thing like I remember one guy he had belong hair in, in, in theatre school. And one of the first things that happened was within like, the first month, somebody was like, you can have long hair now, but you’re gonna have to cut because you have to look like everybody, you know? And it’s such a, like, if you have to look like everybody, you’re never going to feel like yourself. Right? Yeah. So how do you come into the theatre school in the theatre realm, and be able to present your whole self?

Joseph Zita
Yeah, I mean, oh, my God. I mean, we could we could write a dissertation on this. But, you know, I, what I’m feeling called to say at the moment is like, what resonates with me there specifically is like, the experience of being a transracial adoptee, right? Like, I, you know, that like meme of like, Big Bird on the Deathstar with like Darth Vader and like, the storm troopers, I sent I send that up, but that is often the way I felt as a transracial adoptee, right, you know, you, your feathers are sticking out of your uniform, and like, no matter no matter what you are not from this world, you are from Sesame Street. But but it’s just some, that was kind of my experience, but like, without realising that was my experience, you know, like, because I had internalised so much white supremacy, you know, like growing up in white spaces and like, like, learning to, to kind of, I hate that I’m saying this on the record, but I’m gonna say it like learning to, like, hate my brown skin, because of the rooms that I was in. And, you know, just sort of being in theatre school. And I only say this, in hindsight, I don’t think I knew it at the time. But like, just having that feeling of, I’m never actually going to be straight and wide enough for you. I’m never actually going to, like fit this bill of like, the type of person that you see as the only person who can do Shakespeare right. And to sort of speak to your point like, that doesn’t actually encourage people to come with their whole authentic selves. Yeah, you’re not bringing the tools and the gifts that you naturally bring to the table. You’re just trying to be like, I don’t know, Brian, who is the favourite? You know, there was no Brian and Mike us.

Phil Rickaby
Yeah, we’ll call him Brian. Well, Brian, the child?

Joseph Zita
Yeah. Brian, the golden child. Exactly. You know, and, and to add to that, you know, like, I was one of two POCs, in my class, myself, and Julius Cho, who is working so much. And both of us I mean, I can’t speak for Julius but I have a sense, both of us really felt like the school had no idea what to do with us, you know, like, and I guarantee you, if you had looked at our like, graduating class, at the time, people would not have said, like, Oh, those are people who are going to work. And we’re kind of working a lot right now. So it’s, you know, like, but like, I think we’re doing that in spite of the swim upstream that we’ve had to endure. And and what could it have been? Like, if we didn’t have to swim upstream as much? What could it have been like, if we had been allowed to be our own unique individual selves?

Phil Rickaby
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think about the the faculty when I went to school, and in early 90s, when, you know, I’m an old man. So when I was in school, I think about the factor the faculty and it was sis white. They were a couple of, I think our music teacher was gay. And there were a couple of, of queer people, but it was all white. Yep. And it was predominantly straight. And that was, I think, reflected in that. Most of the people of colour who joined us at the in first year did not end up in the class in the final year. And I, you know, there’s all kinds of reasons for that. There’s all kinds of reasons for that, but I always find it suspect. Yeah, when the class that graduates is predominantly white, yeah. And when it started with really talented, black, black indigenous people of colour in the course. And I have to wonder often how did we How did the this programme fail those students?

Joseph Zita
Yeah, I mean, I’m gonna go on a bit of a limb here and I think the onus has often been put on us as the marginalised individuals, uh, well, you just, you didn’t rise to the challenge of theatre school? Well, you didn’t know how to, you know, get rid of your gay or, you know, like, you didn’t know how to like, you know, I don’t know, fill in the blank however you want, but I actually, I’m with you, in that I actually think that the system wasn’t designed for us to succeed. You know, it is suspect if you’re, if you’re bringing in talented people with it with a spark and a fire into these theatre schools, and they’re not being set up to succeed. And it’s happening quantifiably enough, perhaps, that’s a systemic issue, perhaps that’s, that’s, you’re not creating a safe enough environment for these people to succeed. Maybe it’s not that they’re, you know, they’re not working hard enough.

Phil Rickaby
No, and I think a lot of it, I mean, we all went into school with a spark and a fire. And most of us left the theatre school programme, at least in my day, we all left. And it took us a while after graduating to find that spark and fire again, because it had essentially been beat out. Now, we essentially had didn’t have the systemic racism working against us as, as, as as predominantly white students. So we maybe struggled a little, a little less. And so of course, the the students that I had started with who there was, there were some who were black, there were some who were, who were who were brown, like all kinds of, we had all kinds of people of colour within the class and they just didn’t, didn’t come out the other side. I want to change a tack a little bit, because you mentioned like, the, I don’t know, if you’ve struggled with Shakespeare that you struggled with the waist, Shakespeare was taught until you went to the the intensive at at Stratford. Yeah. Because now you’re on the board at Shakespeare in the rough. So, what I want to what is the journey that you had with Shakespeare, and how did you find your way to where you are now with Shakespeare in the rough?

Joseph Zita
So that’s a really wonderful question. I mean, yeah, that Stratford Academy was really formative for me in a number of ways. I think Shakespeare kind of speaks to me personally, as a singing actor. There is a lot of musicality in the text. And there is a lot of heightened circumstance in those plays. And there’s a lot of poetry in those words, just like there is in song. And I hadn’t really put those dots together until that Stratford summer, because, again, I was always the musical theatre boy, in my classical acting programme, and that as if that was some slur, well, you know, Joseph likes musicals, like how dare he he, his taste does not matter. And then, you know, that summer, Kate Hennig was in Romeo and Juliet as the nurse, and in Fiddler on the Roof as Golda, and she came to speak to our English class. And somebody asked her about somebody asked her something like, oh, well, like what’s what’s, what’s the difference between your process in musicals and your process in Shakespeare? And she said, and I’m paraphrasing because it’s been seven years now or eight or whatever, but but she was like, well, musical theatre and Shakespeare are the same love for me. And I approach them really the same, you know, in in Shakespeare, my heightened text my heightened my heightened language is the verse it’s the Pentameter in a musical is my heightened language is the song and it’s the idea that the circumstances that these characters are in are so massive that speech is not enough anymore, that pedantic conversation will not serve the, the size of these thoughts or the need. And for me, that was like, a massive penny drop moment that was like, I was no longer just the musical theatre kid, I had something to hang my hat on. It’d be like, Oh, I can transfer these skills that we learned in Shakespeare class, to acting the song. And you know, a lot of the smartest musical theatre composers like Sondheim like Kendra and, like Lin Manuel even are so specific about the way they craft their songs that if you know how to scour a Shakespeare monologue for clues, and you have a decent amount of music literacy, you can pretty much use those same skills in transference to fill in those blanks for you as an actor in musical musical theatre.

Phil Rickaby
One of the things that I find fascinating is the idea that these teachers who were teaching theatre in Toronto, in Canada, yeah, we’re like, discounting musical theatre when I was in. Now when I was in when I was going to theatre school we had the long running production of of lame is at that time, the long running production of Phantom of the Opera was was on at the Pantages at that time. And so the idea of what they how they were teaching us was, we need you to be able to do everything, we need you to be able to do Shakespeare, but we also acknowledge that a big part of this business is musical theatre. So if you can carry a tune, maybe you can’t dance, but if you can act a song, you can get work. And that was like the attitude that that they had towards it. And the idea that a school would, would discount the musical theatre as part of the career path. Yeah. is so true. It’s so foreign to me. Like how, why would you limit your students that way?

Joseph Zita
Pretension is the only answer that I have, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a I would get a lot of, well, that’s not real acting. Well, musical theatres aren’t real actors. And it just makes me want to, like, bang my head on the wall. It’s, it’s actually like, you tell me that it’s not thrilling to watch. Patti LuPone send over ladies who lent she you know, like, you tell me that you’re not moved by someone like Marin Maisie or Donna Murphy. You know, it’s it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s it’s part of the craft and if you have the gift, why not bring yourself to it? But but to quickly circle back to your question about Ruff. Ruff was everything I arrived at rough. Interestingly, through through the way of song they needed a community choir. And for that, for the production of walking shadows in 2015. And someone I went to high school with Sam Gates was the music director who was hired. And she was like, she put like a post out on Facebook, like being like, does anybody want to come and sing in the choir at rough I’m, I’m music directing, and I was like, okay, like, I’m not doing anything, this is a great opportunity to like, meet people in the city now that I’m back. And it was through that process that I met Caitlin Reardon, who wasn’t artistic director at the time, but sort of ended up becoming artistic director there for the last couple years. And and what was really wonderful about ruff was it felt like the antithesis to the old guard of Shakespeare, it you know, the, they have such respect for the canon and they also love to pick it apart and see, like, how can we tell Julius Caesar from from a perspective that is modern, that is different that that has just as much meaning you know, and I think they’ve been extraordinarily successful with that over the years. But more than that, you know, they’ve always been an open door and I I pride, like, I guess, as a board member, now I pride the company for being an open door to emerging artists. Because, like, you know, Caitlyn saw me in that circle on the get to know you day she’d like, be lying to me introduce yourself to me and was like, Hi, I’m Caitlin, tell me about you. And, you know, we developed this friendship and I did the master classes. And, you know, through that, you know, I was invited to do the gorilla ruffian programme, which is like the emerging theatre artists training programme, where, you know, actors will do improvise skits using Shakespearean text in farmer’s markets of over a summer and, and it was it was from that, that, you know, Kaitlyn sat me down and was like, you for whatever reason, I still don’t know. But she was like, you know, I really I really value you as an artist and I value your perspective and we’re looking to have an artist on our board of directors to bring a unique perspective to the board that might support the artistry in our artistic decisions a little bit more from a from a more direct perspective connected to what’s happening in the industry. And I was I was shocked at first I was like, Well, wait me you want to know my perspective? Well, I’m just a little tadpole in this pond. But but it Caitlin had really made it clear that she she valued my opinion and then Eva of course when Eva came on to co artistic director with her. It was really special to to hear them want to know what my perspective was, and it was really eye opening for me too. Because, you know, you’d have this board of directors of like lawyers and business people and you know, they’d bring an artistic decision to the table. And I’d be like, Oh, my God, that is so cool artistically. I love it. I’m behind it, and then the board would be like, Okay, that’s great. But how can we factor that in the budget? And have you considered this bylaw? And have you seen it from this perspective, and, and it was really sort of informative to me being like, oh, theatre is so much more of a, of a business from from this side of the table. And I have so much to learn. And I think I don’t want to, I don’t want to speak out of turn. But I think there were some moments where the board had the same experience from the flip side, like they saw something in a certain way. And then as the artists on the board acted like, well, as it turns out, this works because of X, Y, and Z. And there I was met with a response of like, oh, I hadn’t considered that thank you for shedding your artistic perspective on it.

Phil Rickaby
That’s quite a, it’s quite an experience to be able to have that that business side, because I think a lot of times, as artists, we forget that it’s a business. Yeah, there’s a business aspect to it. So in some ways, you have a unique perspective on that having, like, being the artist sitting on the board of directors. We only have a few minutes left, and I want to things that I do want to talk about is the idea of being somewhere between an emerging artist and an established artist. And I’m curious, because I feel like the the industry is really unclear with what the what is an emerging artist. Sometimes we were like, well, once you’re after after 25, you can’t be an emerging artist. And it’s like, like, I hear that sometimes I feel like there’s this emerging artists thing up to 25. And I’m like, up to 25. Like, I know, I still feel like an emerging artist. I’m like, all the time, like, so. Do you feel like we I? Do we need to dispense with the term emerging artists, if we can’t define it, and like, come up with some other term, I wonder,

Joseph Zita
Oh, my God, I mean, I don’t know if that term exists, I would like for it to exist. Because yeah, I mean, I see the benefit of referring to people as an emerging artists, at the same time by that metric, if 25 was the cut off, like, I just barely booked my first equity job at Salt Pepper at 25. Like I, I like I would not call that emerging, like, you know, like it, and people’s careers emerge on their own time, right? You know, you see people, you know, get cast at Stratford or in a Mirvish show, and then like, catapult to like instant success and working nonstop. And then you see people build careers over smaller bits of chunks at a time, you know, and I don’t think I don’t think it’s for anybody to say, Well, you’ve you’ve missed your mark as an emerging artist, or you haven’t. It’s really weird. I’m contemplating this a lot at the moment. I’m not shy about my age, I’m turning 30 in two weeks. And it’s this weird. It is this weird in between, because I have, I look at the things that I’ve done in my career, and I am proud of the things that I have accomplished. And at the same time, I recognise that I’ve got so much more to do and that there’s so much that I haven’t done yet. And I don’t even know like, it depends on who you ask, you know, what an emerging artist is, if your metric is, did they work at Stratford? Did they work at Mirvish? I am barely established, but if your metric is like, you know, X amount of credits or whatever, then like, I might stand a chance. But you know, I regardless. I think like, I think if we can, perhaps it’s not about the term, but if we can acknowledge that people cook on their own times. And that, you know, just because you didn’t book Stratford at 21, does it mean that you’re going to be an established artist at 31 I think we would keep our artistic community open to so many more people than I think we are i i think we sometimes write people off a little too much. We sometimes keep our doors a little too closed. And I’d love to see more stories of like, hey, you know, what, they decided to start when they were 35. And like, you know, crushed it, you know, or like, there is no timeline, you know, like, like, Andrea shields won his first Tony Award in his 70s. Like, if that’s if slowly is the quickest way to where you’re going, then I’ve got a whole lifetime anybody has a whole lifetime. You know, like, I think we can do away with the notion that if you haven’t made it at 25, you’re done.

Phil Rickaby
Well, that’s for sure. That’s absolutely the case. I mean, I think we all we all move at our different at, like you said, we bake a different a different, different speeds. And I think it does a disservice, I think, because I think a lot of people feel like they’re still emerging. Right? I think there’s very few people who actually feel like they have their they have their established artists, because in this country we work as you know, as much as you can, but there’s not as much work as in some other places. Yeah.

Joseph Zita
Yeah. I mean, I feel I feel that way, too. I feel like I’m constantly trying to try to build you know, and people say, Oh, well, Joseph, you’ve done XYZ. And I’ll be like, Yeah, but I’m still building like, you know, like, I’m still, I still have my dry spells, I still have my moments of not working. And on the inside, it feels a lot different than it looks on the outside.

Phil Rickaby
Oh, of course it does. Because people only see the part. That’s the public part. They see the part on stage. They don’t, they don’t know about everything else that goes on. Behind all of that. They don’t know how long the rehearsals are, they don’t know what it took to get to that point. And so it’s it’s sometimes it looks like, oh, that person, they’re absolutely established. Meanwhile, you know, anyway, there’s so many conversations that can spiral out of that. And we unfortunately don’t have time, but I want to thank you, Joseph, for speaking with me today. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation and great getting to know you.

Joseph Zita
How am I gonna say hey, thank you for having me. It was such an honour to speak with you and get to know you on this platform.

Phil Rickaby
This has been an episode of Stageworthy Stageworthy is produced, hosted and edited by Phil Rickaby. That’s me. If you enjoyed this podcast and you listen on Apple podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five star rating. And if you’re listening on Apple podcasts, you can also leave a review those reviews and ratings help new people find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to Phil rickaby.com/subscribe. And remember, if you want to leave a tip, you’ll find a link to the virtual tip jar in the show notes or on the website. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at Stageworthy pod and you can find the website with a complete archive of all episodes@stageworthy.ca If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Phil Rickaby and as I mentioned, my website is Phil rickaby.com. See you next week for another episode of Stageworthy