Aaron Jan

Aaron Jan is a Hamilton-born playwright, director, dramaturg. and educator. He has worked as a creator with Factory Theatre, UpintheAir Theatre, Soulpepper, York University, Boca Del Lupo, fu-GEN Asian Canadian Theatre, Theatre Passe Muraille, the Musical Stage Company, Canadian Stage, Theatre Erindale, Sheridan College and most recently as a guest director at the Creative School at Toronto Metropolitan University. A member of the critically acclaimed Silk Bath Collective, Aaron is the 2019 winner of the Ken McDougall directing award, the 2021 inaugural co-winner of Highland Arts Theatre’s Rita Joe playwriting award, a 2021 Johanna Protege Award, the 2022 winner of the Urjo Kareda Award and a co-recipient of The Musical Stage Company’s Aubrey and Marla Dan Fund for New Musicals. Alongside Karen Ancheta, Aaron is a co-founder of Porch Light Theatre (currently a company in residence at Theatre Aquarius), and is dedicated to making his hometown a place where professional theatre artists can make new work and be compensated fairly for it.

http://aaronchihojan.wixsite.com/home
Twitter: @afatchineseboy
Instagram: @afatchineseboy

Porch Light Theatre
https://www.industrypresents.com/porchlight-theatre
Tickets to House Key Project: https://boxoffice.hamiltonfringe.ca/event/866:605/

Support Stageworthy
Tip Jar: tips.pinecast.com/jar/stageworthy

Transcript

Welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host of this podcast. This is episode 331.

Stageworthy is a one-person operation, so not only do I arrange the guests conduct the interviews, I also edit the show, promote it, and I even created the music that you’re hearing right now. I also shoulder all of the financial responsibilities for keeping the show going while continuing to give you this show for free. So if you enjoy the podcast, please consider supporting it.

There are a few ways that you can do that. If you listen on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, you can leave a five-star rating. And if you listen on Apple Podcasts, you can also leave a review.

Those reviews and ratings help new people to find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickaby.com/subscribe. And you can also leave a tip for the show by dropping some change in the virtual tip jar.

You’ll find a link to that in the show notes, which you can find on the website or in your podcast app. But one of the most important things that you can do, even more important than ratings, reviews, or even financial support is to share on social media. Even a retweet about this episode will help.

You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at StageworthyPod. And you can find the website with the archive of all 331 episodes at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickaby and my website is philrickaby.com. My guest this week is Hamilton born playwright, director, dramaturg and educator Aaron Jan. Aaron joined me to talk about porch light theatres house key projects and innovative site specific immersive adventure through four secret backstage locations at Hamilton’s theatre Aquarius as part of the 2022 Hamilton Fringe Festival.

Here’s our conversation. Are you guys rehearsing and shit right now you what’s happening? No, no. So it’s it’s a youth program is what we’re running.

Karen and I did a we want to Canada Council grant back in 2019 to do this project then haha two years of pandemic. But now that Hamilton fringes in person again, we’re able to launch this initiative. It’s a youth program that pays young Hamiltonian artists equity rates to spend a month of workshop writing with us than a month of workshop devising a show.

So that’s the project they’re in the writing. So yeah, gotta pay those young people. Phil, when? Yeah, when did when is that? When is that the project start for you guys? So we’re in, we just had our first meeting last weekend.

In this first month, we are just meeting every week so they can develop their pieces with my partner, my work partner, Karen and Jenna. And then at the beginning of July, there’s a two week intensive equity style rehearsal period. And then we open the third week of July for a seven show run in the bowels of theatre Aquarius and then we vanish.

We you mentioned that it’s it’s it’s sort of a site specific sort of like installation like people will be like walking through the bowels of the theatre building. Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. One of the things that Karen and I are well aware of is that like, youth shows kind of have a reputation for sucking.

So our whole thing was, how do we make this not suck? And then Karen and I were like, Okay, what’s something cool? Let’s do like weird immersive theatre, where we actually take people on adventures. Like last year, we did a similar concept, except like, you had to drive to sites and you would listen to audio plays at the sites and you would like manipulate artifacts at each site. But this year, because we’re in person, and we are the company in residence at theatre Aquarius this year, we’re taking audiences into weird spaces at theatre Aquarius.

And each performer gets to inhabit one of those spaces and kind of build an immersive solo piece. Like one of the spaces is a bathroom, one of the spaces is an orchestra pit, where a live performance of a show will be happening above you. And you’re in a silent basement with someone who leads you through exercises.

Another one of the sites is a code check that we’re going to completely black out. And the the final site is a very scary room with one door and no windows. So you can achieve full darkness in that room.

So yeah, we are sending our audiences into weirdo sites, creating a piece of youth theatre that doesn’t suck. So that’s kind of the goal. That’s I mean, that’s pretty awesome.

That I mean, the site specificness of it is pretty exciting. You mentioned, what is it about youth theatre that so often sucks? Well, it’s just like, the whole thing is like you go to youth theatre generally for like, oh, I’m going to see the youth showcase, they’re gonna do some scenes, they might do some devised work. But ultimately, it’s not really about the show, right? It’s mostly for the youth to get a chance to like, show what they’ve done and show what they’ve learned.

And there’s definitely merit in that. But like, I think the big thing about that is it’s like, oh, cool. We’re here for the youth.

But when you look at a porch light show, it’s like, no, you’re here for the show. And like, that’s not to say we don’t sacrifice, we don’t sacrifice the education of the young people and building it. But we also keep the idea that like an audience experience is important.

And it’s important to keep that in mind, too. So like, that’s kind of the fire that’s infueling Karen and I being like, okay, Karen’s a very good outreach person. But like, how do we make an experience that is both valuable for young people, and for the audiences, they can invest in these artists beyond just this piece, beyond just being like, oh, that was kind of cool.

I can see them act. I saw a vulnerability or no being like, oh, there’s something here with these pieces. If I wanted to, I could follow this artist further and see how this piece develops and grows.

It’s sort of the difference between like, like obligation theatre, and a show that you really want to see. And, and, you know, we would rather an audience, you know, some audiences, they’ll be like, well, let’s go support the youth. Yeah, we’ll go.

But it’s so much better for everyone involved, the performers and the audience, if it’s a show that people are there, because this sounds interesting. I really want to see this as it’s exciting. It’s a completely different experience.

Yeah, I remember, like, I think of Concord floral as an example of that, right? Concord floral created and performed, well, it was directed by a professional director, but like, performed by kids who were literally in high school. No one was seeing the show because they’re like, oh my God, high school kids, they were seeing it because they were like, this is a horror play performed by incredible actors who just happened to be in high school. So like, I think about Concord floral as that example of being like, wow, like, when young people make theatre, it can be like not obligation theatre.

And like, I don’t know, as an East Asian theatre artists, right? I feel sometimes like, sometimes for myself, I’m like, oh, wow, people are only seeing my work because it’s Asian. But then I’m like, no, I need to break that mold. I need to be like, no, I can make incredible fucking work.

And I know I can. So like, why not do that in my outreach programming as well, that like, the young people get to create the show with a sense of rigor. And they believe in themselves.

Yes, but the show is powerful. It’s exciting. It’s something they believe in.

And it’s still held to a professional standard. So yeah, I don’t know. That’s kind of the fuel under my ass there.

I think that’s the really big thing is the professionalism of it. These kids are getting paid like they’re professionals. And they’re working with professionals.

And so they’re going to, I think that’s something that not only gives them the experience of, oh my God, I’m being paid for this theatre thing, but also like raises the bar. It shows them that you can get paid for this. It’s a hugely important experience for all of them.

I’m sure. Yeah. Cause I don’t know.

I remember when I was younger, like the first thing that happened to me, it sounds like I was traumatized. The first thing that happened to me in theatre was I did this program at theatre Aquarius that no longer exists called the Summer Performing Arts Program run by Lou Zampragna. And it was three weeks of masterclasses.

We had a professional style audition that we put up a full Broadway musical with full production value in 10 days. And I remember just sitting there and being like, wow, this is like, this feels like an experience where it’s like, this is what it means to work like a pro in the regional theatre. You had to show with your music prepared.

You have to learn choreography. He ran it like a professional theatre show. And it had such an impact on me as a young person being like, oh, I don’t need to be coddled.

Like I can do this program and I can learn like kind of what it takes to do like a huge show. And I can learn rigor. I can learn work ethic.

I can learn about what it means to show up to work prepared. And like, obviously there’s some things that like I’m doing differently than that program, but like that was really foundational in my own theatre, like training before I went to university of like, oh, you have to work at this. Like, yes, this can be enjoyable.

Yes, this can be fun, but there’s a rigor involved and there’s a joy and a fun in finding that rigor and learning that music and figuring things out. But like, cause I’m being held to a higher standard and someone who meets me as a professional like that, that was really important to me. And like, of course, Karen and I leave a lot of generosity and we’d leave with a lot of kindness, but like, it is anchored by that belief that like, these are young professionals, let’s treat them like that.

And that young professionals can exist in Hamilton, Ontario. Hmm. That’s huge.

It’s huge because I think I remember my, you know, me going into theatre school, all I’d ever done really were a couple of amateur productions and some shows in high school. So going into that, like, I didn’t know what I had an idea of what I thought professionalism was and what was expected of a professional actor, but you don’t know until you’re thrust into it. So it’s good for these guys to number one, have that experience of, of, of having the expectation of a professionalism.

So they know what it is, if it’s actually something they want to pursue, you know, instead of thinking that maybe it’s the same as when you’re, you know, fucking around in high school. Yeah, precisely. Yeah.

I don’t know. And it also means something to Karen and I, because like, Hamilton by and large is a mostly white theatre community. So as two theatre makers of color, like, it’s really important for us to like, be kind of like mentors for like the next generation of artists in color in town.

So like, again, it’s so important to us that like this show doesn’t just become an obligation show that it becomes like, Oh, there’s these new brown kids in town that are making work. And Oh, that work is really, really good. Like it, I don’t know, it kind of, because we didn’t have that growing up, right? Like, I mean, I didn’t experience any like racial trauma in Hamilton or anything, but like, my own Chineseness was not recognized as something that could tell stories.

I was like, Oh, great, cool. I’m doing this musical. I’m doing chess.

I’m doing rent. And I’m like, great. I am an actor.

I’m just an actor. But with this one, we’re kind of being like, Hey, like your stories as brown folks matter. And like, you can use that if you want, because like in this room, we are excited by that.

Like the youth auditioned with stories they created. That’s how they, they applied to our program. So like, if we can kind of be that kind of like foothold over the fence, like, fuck it, let’s do it.

The Hamilton scene. I mean, you know, like you said, predominantly white. And I think, you know, Hamilton has this, I think it’s the way that I’ve heard it described as sort of a weird where there’s the professional theatre.

But for some people, the more exciting work they think is happening in some of the community slash amateur groups. And I don’t know if that’s like a fact, but I’ve, I’ve heard a couple of people that I know from Hamilton at least a few years ago, lament that fact that like the professional theatres, the theatre wasn’t doing the work that was as exciting and the audiences weren’t there, but you also have this scene that has a lot of potential. And it’s the fact that it’s so predominantly white is sort of like something that holds it back because that is not the makeup of Hamilton, right? That’s not if you go out on the street, if you walk around Hamilton, that’s not how Hamilton looks.

Hamilton is a multi multicultural city. And so the theatre and the performers should reflect that. To be fair, there is a new artistic director of theatre Aquarius, Mary Frances Moore, who is phenomenal.

She is like, yes, she needs to, she’s like appeasing the old subscribers, but like they just launched a new season and like she’s working with almost exclusively Hamilton artists in a lot of her programming. And she’s like really trying to get different faces, different voices in there. Like Macombe’s show was just there.

A big indigenous show was just there. And yes, they’re clothing of Ring of Fire, but like there’s, she’s getting in different programming that has not been programmed at theatre Aquarius under the last artistic director. But so theatre Aquarius is changing, but I think, I think it is, it’s the same thing in Hamilton that I keep observing.

And I feel, I feel like we talk about this on every podcast around Phil. Like every time this comes up is that currently Hamilton is predominantly, I was actually just in Vancouver and it’s like the opposite problem of Vancouver. Cause my understanding of the Vancouver scene is it’s so many professional independent companies and not enough spaces.

So like there’s all these indie companies in Vancouver that are kind of like fighting over two or three spaces that are able to be rented. Whereas in Hamilton, I feel there’s the inverse problem. There are lots of spaces occupied by community venues.

Yes. And community companies. Yes.

But there’s not enough consistent independent work. There is, yes, there’s tottering biped. There’s yes, there’s industry and yes, there’s red Betty, but there seems to lack a consistent independent season in the city.

So like the majority of work that is seasoned and is independent is community theatre and amateur groups and no, no, no slight toward them. But like, there was a gulf of difference between professional independent work and community work. And you can tell in the rigor of their productions, I think community theatre has its place.

I, when I was younger, I used to shit on community theatre being like, those guys are jerks, whatever. But like there is something to be said about a community that has a thriving amateur scene. Cause there are people in town that really love the theatre.

That being said, it’s the only consistent game in town aside from the regional bit. So I don’t know. I think what Karen and I are trying to do with this project, which is called the house key project or a company’s porch light theatre is if not create a consistent scene, at least create a sense where youth can go back home to Hamilton and feel like someone has their back so they can like train with us and build a show.

And then when they produce projects of their own, they kind of have that jet pack from us and they have us as like mentors and resources. Because I think the thing about Hamilton is that like, there’s only really one professional company in town. The reality is they can’t program all these shows from the community that are popping up.

Right. So all these independent artists give up, but we’re hoping with our project is by giving these young people a chance to Mount their own work at a professional standard. They feel inspired to stay in the city, apply for and win funding and do full on versions of the 10 minute pieces they’re building with us.

So yeah, I don’t know. I think like, I think we’re going to keep having this conversation every time on the podcast Phil. Uh, but it’s just the reality of the situation.

I think there’s just like the scene is predominantly amateur work because what Hamilton needs is for young people to stay and win funding and build their own companies and fight to make a community in town. And that requires you to stay in the city and requires you to make a commitment to the city. And yeah, I’m just gonna leave it at that.

I think it’s, it’s, it’s super interesting because I’ve been having a lot of conversations lately about, about Toronto and, and what is it in, like, it comes down to a lot of times, like what is, what is the future of Toronto when, you know, all of the things that make it livable seem to be getting torn down for condos and all this sort of stuff, theatre, the, the independent theatres are, are, are struggling or going away. Like how many, there’s two, it’s like so many different questions. Like what does the place hold? And it’s like, these are the questions I think that, that, that, that a community needs to answer.

Like, what is this place for us? And what is, what is theatre here? And can I make something here? And, you know, I think a lot of times if you grow up in a place like Hamilton, you look at Toronto and you’re like, Oh, that’s where I have to be. But that’s not the case. Like Hamilton has an amazing theatre culture that can be built on and can, and can thrive.

It just, like you said, it needs people to stay there and build it. Yeah. I got to admit, Phil, I’m, I’m a bit of a poser here because I fled from my hometown.

I don’t make work in Hamilton because I know I don’t have the patience to stay in that city and build infrastructure for my own work. Cause I know that’s a many year operation. And yeah, I think for me, just to answer that question.

And it’s a different climate, right? It’s what you’re interested in. I have relationships with gatekeepers. Like I know people who run buildings and like some of them have given me shots and some of them haven’t, but like, I feel like I’m in that community in terms of like professional artistic leaders.

And I just started directing universities too, which has been such like a, um, I feel like I’m working. Um, but I understand people, some people don’t like that atmosphere. Like a lot of my friends moved to Vancouver precisely because they don’t want to deal with gatekeepers anymore.

They don’t want to like have to try to get into a company season. They want to do work of their own. Their collaborators are out there.

But for me, I think what I like about this city is there are so many institutions that at least for, in my case, want to play ball with me. And that’s what excites me about being in the city. And also just like, I don’t know.

I remember one of my mentors said this, like, where can you be your full self in your artistry? And for me, it’s this city. Like I feel excited when I walk down the street. I had a whole, like I’ve been directing back-to-back projects and like being able to walk home from those rehearsal rooms and just walk through the city.

Ooh, what is that? Did you hear that? Um, no, no, sorry. Okay. I thought I heard some static anyway, for me, just like that feeling of like going home from rehearsal, being able to walk through different neighborhoods still excites me.

I’m such a fucking loser. I get excited when I see the CN tower. Still, when my plane came in for Vancouver and I saw that stupid little needle pointing at the sky, I was like, I’m home.

And I don’t know. I think that’s like, I understand people who stay in the city and people who leave the city. But for me, this is the city where my artistry can breathe or can be my fullest self.

And honestly, where I can work. And I, I genuinely feel that I feel my community I found is in this city and I totally get there’s people who don’t feel that. But for me, I know Toronto is the city for me.

You know, it’s funny you described that, that feeling of being on the plane. You know, it’s been a while since I’ve flown out of Toronto and returned, but I remember every time coming back, didn’t matter where I was, didn’t matter how much I liked the place I was. When you make that approach and you see the tower, it’s like, yeah, this is the place, right? No matter how long you’ve been away.

I want to ask you about, about some of the directing you’ve been doing. Cause you’ve had, I mean, I think you, you would probably agree that you’ve had kind of a hell of a year. Oh my God.

Yeah. Like, yeah. So in terms of some of the stuff you’re, you’ve been working on, you went back to, I think you, you directed at York.

Uh, I, I wrote, I was commissioned at York in late 2020 as a playwright. Yeah. I guess we can talk about it.

How was that? Was that? Yeah. Sorry. I mean, sure.

Yeah. Let’s do that. Let’s do that.

What was, what was first? Um, so, um, in 2020, this, the fuck thing is Phil that like this pandemic’s been really good to me, which is really fucked up and I can’t really explain why. Like everyone was like, Oh my God, my career is over. And I was like, Oh my God, me too.

And then, um, in June of 2020, I got an, I, uh, I was commissioned to write a play for York university season. Um, and then like, I did that and then it got produced and that was my first real professional, like producing of my own, my own work ever. So then I was like, wow, what a fun experience.

Um, and then, um, I started doing musical theatre stuff. I won a and I was like, wow, what a great experience. And then like, I started getting hired to direct at universities and that’s what I’ve been doing.

I guess this quote unquote season, like, um, I started in December, I directed an audio play for factory, but then in like February of 2022, this year, I directed like a show at university of Toronto, Mississauga. Then I directed a show at, um, uh, formerly Ryerson university now called the even worst name of Toronto metropolitan university. Um, and then we just call it, can we just call it generic Toronto university? Is that, is that the name that we should just give it? Generic Toronto, my gosh, the running joke we were doing was we would call it Ryerson.

We were mad at it. So whenever we were angry at the school, we just call it Ryerson. I I’m going to keep calling it XU just because I have not accepted the title.

I will never accept that title. Toronto Metropolitan University. It’s just like, it’s also TMU.

It’s too much university. Like that’s, that’s the acronym. It’s so embarrassing.

It’s like your embarrassing cousin. You’re like, I’m at this wedding. Don’t screw anything up.

And then your cousin just like smashes into the punch bowl and you’re like, it’s over for me, man. So yeah, I directed, uh, with a TMU, um, a school that kicked me out, uh, 12 years ago. So that was kind of exciting.

And, uh, then I just directed a touring show. My first tour went out to up in the air in Vancouver. Uh, it was called lucky.

Um, so right now I’m directing a show, a workshop at buddies, and then I’m co-directing the house key project. And then Phil, I am going to take a break. I am going to stop directing for the rest of the year and just chill and work on these writing projects I’ve abandoned.

So that I hope in the rest of the year. Yeah. I’m just going to say like, I think number one, you’ll, you’ll deserve the break.

And also, you know, when you have a project on the back burner that you, I mean, it’s a good problem to have, I’m too busy. I can’t work on this project, but also, I mean, come on. Yeah.

I don’t know. It’s funny, but like, I think like people are like, Oh my God, I’m so burned out. And I’m like, that’s never happened to me.

And then I started working this year and I was like, no, I’m fucking burned out. Like I’m doing nothing. Yeah.

Nice. Yeah. I think, I think a lot of people don’t take burnout seriously, I think.

And people joke about being burned out, but burnout’s pretty serious when you burn out, you can’t really do anything. So it’s so important not to get to that point. So good for you for taking the time off.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think at one point, like during this week, the workshop’s going really well, but like at one point during this week, I was like, I can’t make an image.

Like I don’t know how to direct. Like usually I’m just like, Oh, this image is great. But like one day in rehearsal, I think yesterday, I was just like, I don’t, I don’t know what I’m doing.

I was just sitting there and I’m like, I’m so tired. Oh my God. I’ve never experienced this before.

Cause I think that’s, that’s, I, I was telling my friend Jasmine this few days ago, like this year is the first year of actually felt like a professional director. Cause people were hiring me and I was like, Whoa. And then I finally experienced burnout and I was like, this is terrible.

This sucks. So I don’t know. I think it’s just like burnout also feels like a sign of privilege.

Like, I know it’s really fucked up to say, but just like, I didn’t take it seriously. Cause I didn’t know what it was like to like be hired constantly, like on back-to-back gigs. I was always just like, I’m going to wait 10 months and then I’ll do a fringe show.

Hopefully it’ll go well. And that’s my directing for the year. And now the horrible thing, Phil is fringes part of this back-to-back directing season.

I was like, why did I do this? Why didn’t I like, why didn’t I just tell Karen you take care of this? So yeah, I, I have one week off next week and I’m literally going to stare at the sky. I’m going to turn on Disney plus and I’m going to catch up on all the star Wars I’ve missed for through the entire pandemic. Well, you’ve missed a bunch, so you better, you better get some popcorn.

Um, I want to ask about, about, about going, like being commissioned by the school that, that, that booted you, um, to, to, to write and you, you went to the school, right? It wasn’t just like you were sitting at home. You were like at the school working on the show, right? No, it wasn’t the writing. I directed at that school.

So like, oh shit. Yeah, I know. It was like, yeah.

No, I just like, like the, the, we have a little bit of a lag, so we just like go with it. But the, the, the, to, to, for me, like when I was at theatre school, I was like one of those kids who could, you know, back when they, they, they, they cut people from programs, which I’ve been speaking to people lately who are like, they do what, but like, you know, I was like on the edge of being caught like every semester and fighting to stay in. But like, there’s something about like being after that or being like asked to leave when like, I would feel, I would feel kind of like the shit and a little bit, uh, uh, like, like, like some big shoes going back to the school, you know? Yeah.

So like, I kind of went in there being like, uh, cause the, the person who, um, who kicked me out and said quasi racist things to me, she’s still teaching there. I’m not going to name her. You can Google her if you need to.

Um, but, um, the person who runs the program is a wonderful artist named Cole Lewis and, uh, Luke Reese pitched me to Cole and then Cole said, oh my God, I’m so excited for you to teach. So like, I think I kind of went into the theatre school already having the support of the person who ran the program. So that really helped.

But also it kind of felt like, I don’t want to say like a revenge film, cause that’s pretty fucked up. But it felt like, um, it kind of felt like a chance to be like, I can be what I didn’t have. Like I can go in there and I can be this thing that I always wanted as a teacher.

Like I can, I can, I can be there for the students, not to like pussyfoot around them, but like we’re going to show that we all believe in a show called Hookman by Lauren Yee. It’s this slasher play. There’s these incredible fights in it.

It’s about a girl who loses her best friend to a car crash and she conjures up like a, um, a serial killer to kind of absolve her guilt with. But the twist is she actually drove into oncoming traffic and killed her friend. So she has to come to terms with that.

And like, I love the play. I read it in pandemic. It’s an impossible show because characters bleed from every pore, blood comes down.

Um, but I was like, I’m so excited to go to the school and like direct one of my all time favorite plays. Um, and I hope it works out. And it really did.

Like I, I worked with an incredible cast and production team that all fucking loved the show. I also think selfishly in their fourth year, it was the only show where they got to play characters who existed in the here and now, like not characters from a period show, which is totally where I love period pieces, but like characters who like lived and breathes in the language of today. And like, it was just really nice to work with actors who were incredible.

Like those six performers came to me with so many choices. I’ve already hired some of them professionally, like, and it was just a good vibe in the room. And I think, I think I felt really vindicated leaving, um, having directed that show because I don’t know, like selfishly, I never got to have a fourth year show.

Phil, I was cut in the first semester. I was asked to leave at the very beginning. So I never got to finish and just kind of like being in a room with a bunch of young people who were so jazzed to do this work and who were such amazing collaborators.

Like it felt like closure in the most beautiful way. And it’s kind of funny too. Cause like I ran into some old people there.

Um, and like my movement teacher, like pretended not to know me, which was super funny. And I never ran into the one, the kind of abusive teacher because I actually made sure she wasn’t allowed in my room. Um, but yeah, I, I had a really good experience and like, it was a wonderful experience.

And I think that graduating year at Toronto metropolitan university, they’re so gifted. They just had a festival called terra firma cause they were denied their new works festival. So they produced a festival themselves at the theatre center.

And I just remember seeing those pieces. And I was just like, there is something special in this year. Like they’re, they’re so giving actors.

They’re such amazing creators. Like I feel so strongly about the air and I feel so gifted to have been invited to direct the final year classes. They’re like final show before they graduate in person to didn’t have an in-person audience, but like it was live streamed every night.

And like, I was really proud of that work. And I think all the students were as well. So it was a fantastic experience.

You know, as you described the show, I think to myself about recently, there’ve been more people that I’ve, that I’ve encountered in more productions that I’ve encountered that have been willing to embrace genre, whether it’s horror, we’re seeing a lot of horror, whether it’s like sci-fi or something like that. Like, I think for a long time, we weren’t seeing this kind of stuff on stages. It’s like the theatre was like, Oh, we’re too, we’re, we’re too highbrow for that kind of thing.

And it’s so wonderful to see that sort of stuff on stage because horror especially is so much more visceral when it’s happening in the room like that. There’s like a tension that, that you don’t even get from a movie. Right.

I’m so impressed with the amount of genre that’s happening. Do you feel that there’s like a genre resurgence in the theatre right now? Absolutely. Because our leaders are getting younger.

I think that’s part of it too. Like, what are we consuming? Right? Like my generation grew up on like anime, my generation grew up on like Sailor Moon, Power Rangers, this new generation grew up on Adventure Time, Steven Universe, My Hero Academia, Demon Slayer, these like larger than life genre pieces that become part of popular culture kind of inform all the work we’re doing. Because I think like, I don’t know, growing up, I pretended to like Shakespeare, there’s nothing wrong with Shakespeare, but like, I pretended to like him, but then I realized, no, like, there are other forms of theatre out there.

And you just need to find the right playwrights for it. Like Key Nguyen, who wrote Ray and the Lost Dragon has this like, really well known play called She Kills Monsters, which is about these people who enter a D&D campaign, right? And they become those D&D characters. And it’s this beautiful meditation about grief and letting go of your sister.

But like, that’s the container. And I think as our generations advance, we’ll start seeing more and more of that stuff in our work, because that’s what inspires us. Like, that’s what we were raised with.

I know that like recently, especially with all like, all this stuff going around, there’s like a resurgence of 90s nostalgia, right? Or early 2000s nostalgia. I think of Yolanda Bunnell’s White Girls and Moccasins, which is like set in the 90s. I think about Turning Red, which is set in the early 2000s.

Like, our generation is interested in different things. And some of that genre, some of that is realizing those kind of larger than life, quote, unquote, unstageable things, and putting them on deck because the work we see and are inspired by is hit by that. So yes, I think there’s a resurgence in genre.

But I think it’s connected to leaders getting younger. And leaders also consuming different types of media or also established leaders. I know Nina Liacchino, when she staged Banana Boys, Mr. Robot was her inspiration for it in the recent 2015 production.

So like, the more I think we consume media, the more it inevitably makes its way into our work. And I think that’s really cool and rad. I think that’s a great, it is really, it’s super cool.

I mean, let’s face it. I mean, when I grew up, I’m an old man. So I don’t know if you’re up on Stranger Things, but like that is set in my teenage years, right? That is like my cohort, like 86, which is the current where they are currently, is that I was 16.

So like, in that time, I was a nerd, I was consuming all of the nerd shit, Star Wars, Star Trek, all of this, all of this stuff, reading sci fi, comic books, but it was fringe. And it was not what the pop culture was. And it’s been incredible to see that flourish and to see it being like, I don’t know anybody who’s not a nerd now, right.

And so it’s amazing to see it. But it also is like why it was so I think, so rare, because the the nerds were like fringe and over to the side and not on stage and not like the media was not consumed for them. It was like, Oh, those guys, you know, so it’s great to see, you know, the like, seeing the nerd culture become the pop culture and have that in, you know, inspire and, and, and, you know, be what’s what we’re starting to see more of on the stage.

I’ve longed for it, to be honest. And I’m, I’m happy to see that happening. Yeah, I don’t know, I love it.

And I was taught, I think the beautiful thing about doing hook man, and the other played in theatre school, which was a weird reality TV show reimagining of the masters mixed with some black mirror stuff is there can be whatever you want. Like it can literally be anything you want it to be. You want to do period Shakespeare, do that.

You want to do a show with people dual wielding guns and lightsabers and having like john wu battles in it do that. Like, we don’t have to create the work that our previous generation did unless we want. Like, one of my favorite plays the nether is completely inspired by sci fi.

That is pure sci fi. And like, I love that shit that I’m fascinated by as long as there’s truth in it. I think that’s the big thing.

Like, it was just, we’re going to crib the genre. And we’re going to do these things. I’m like, if there’s like no truth in it, then there’s no point.

But like, I do think that like, yeah, if you could find a truthful way in to those genres, and make it live on stage in an honest and exciting way, and fuck, yeah, let’s fucking do it. Speaking of nerd stuff, I do want to talk to you about about one of your passions and a bold statement that I know that you’ve made. And that is about the last of us part two.

I love it, which you’ve described as one of the greatest pieces of storytelling of all time. I think so. Now I have to make I have to make a confession as an Xbox owner and not a PlayStation owner.

I have not had the opportunity to play this game. Oh, so please tell me about. I don’t want to talk about it.

Actually, I want to talk about I want to talk about it. No, just like game for you. You know what, I might forget it.

I might. You know what? Yes. Tell me about the game.

Let’s talk about this. Let’s talk about this. Okay.

My obsession is villains as heroes. That is my obsession in theatre. That is my obsession in all fiction.

I love when you root for an antagonist, or you believe in the antagonist more than you believe in the hero. More so I enjoy when the villain is paused as the hero. The last of us part two is a story set after the last of us part one, where the main characters kind of surrogate daughter is the protagonist.

Ellie is her name, Joel is her dad. So you play the first game as Joel and everyone had a connection to him and he like saved his daughter from these people who were trying to cut her brain out. And you play the game as Ellie.

Within the first 10 minutes of the game, your dad dies a horribly brutal death where he’s beaten to death by a golf club. You then spend the first half of the game playing as Ellie, killing all the murderers, best friends, driving to Seattle and brutally murdering all of her friends. Halfway through the game then switches perspectives suddenly.

And you play the second half of the game as the murderer and you see her journey in killing the main character’s dad and also enduring the main character, murdering all of her friends. So then it really creates a wonderful moral quandary because it’s like you humanize that villain and you go on that journey with that villain. And then the end of the game, you go back to Ellie and you have a confrontation with a person who killed your dad and Ellie chooses to spare her.

And it’s this disgusting fight where like they bite off each other’s fingers, they stab each other and it’s so visceral. And I just remember sitting there and weeping playing the game. I had never had that strong response to video games ever because I cared about both of them.

Did I agree with both of them? Absolutely not. But I cared about someone I hated and I love that about the game. And everyone’s like, oh my God, you should have killed Abby.

That’s the name of the villain. Oh my God, you should have had the choice. And I’m like, no, you don’t need a choice in this scenario.

They’re not trying to preach something to you. Just the character discovers empathy. The moment she’s about to drown Abby on the shores of Seattle, you control it, you tap square and you hold her head under the water while she bites off your fingers.

And then the end, the character Ellie stops because she realizes in the narrative that Neil Druckmann and Hayley Gross created that like she remembers her dad and she realizes this isn’t worth it. And I think it’s beautiful. We see it in theatre all the time.

An ending that destroys our expectations and leaves us with a sense of ickiness, but we kind of like are left to ponder like, why did that happen? I don’t know. I think like a lot of video games are about wish fulfillment and power fulfillment. And I love how the last of us too makes us feel like shit.

It makes us feel like all of our actions hurt people and it doesn’t provide an easy answer. And like, I understand there’s some problems with the writing and some people like, oh my God, I didn’t care for Abby. But you know what? Like, I think something I’ve learned during the pandemic is like having empathy for people who I might despise or not agree with.

And I think that’s something that like that game really taught me. And like, I, I think it’s a wonderful piece of fiction because it puts you in a situation where you don’t feel sorry for Abby, but you learn about her. You learn about what she likes.

You learn about what she hates. You learn about why she killed your dad, which actually makes a lot of sense. Um, when you find out why that reason is, and you learn about like little things about her, like she’s afraid of heights and it never forces you to take her side, but it does force for you to play for 15 hours in her shoes.

The same way you play as the person who murders her friends. And I think that is phenomenal. That is so interesting.

And I think it’s the one time I played a video game where I’ve been like, fuck, I learned something about myself when I played that. And I understand some people don’t like it, but I think it is a remarkable piece. And if you’re listening to this podcast, um, I really hope you’ve played the game because if you haven’t, I’ve ruined everything for you, but I have not been that affected by a video game in a very long time.

And it changed the way I make art and it changed the way I write my characters. And it changed the way I consume media and I’m critical of media. Um, I love it.

I thought it was genius and I think it’s perfect. I actually think it’s a perfect game. I wonder if some people didn’t like it for the very reason that, um, you know, they, you know, it made them face things about themselves.

It makes them examine things in the motivations and things like that. A lot of times people don’t like that. They like, you know, they don’t like to be challenged.

So a game that does that might make somebody feel conflicted if they’re not willing to open up and go with it. Right. Yeah.

I think though, for me, I like feeling like shit. Like one of my favorite plays of all time is Nick beyond butcher, which like is about, um, someone who was like assaulted as a child and returns to mutilate her abuser in front of his innocent son. And the kind of question at the end of the show is like, was it worth it? And I love that because instinctually you’re supposed to take her side is God is we’re just having a Canadian stage.

Ask that question too. Just like, what if it’s not worth it? I love that shit. Whereas an audience you’re left with like a, Oh, they’re killing all these people.

And they said they would, but it doesn’t feel good. It kind of feels bad, but the show isn’t making a judgment on it. The show is just showing it as it is.

And you leave the theatre with that icky feeling being like, where am I in this paradigm? The character’s made a choice, but where do I exist on this binary? I love the year that does that. I love the year that makes me feel like shit. I love feeling like shit.

It’s my favorite thing to feel. Yeah. I think there’s something about, there’s something about, you know, you know, we’re facing those things, right.

Facing difficult choices, like not, you don’t have to leave the theatre feeling good about the world, right. You have to go on a journey, but you don’t have to leave like feeling good. You in fact, sometimes if you don’t, if you leave not feeling good, then you know, you’ve, if the story has been worth it, you leave changed, which is again, a good thing.

Um, I think that people sometimes where video games are concerned, discount it at, as, as potentially art. Right. Um, and I listen, the first game I wept at was the third installment of mass effect, uh, mass effects three, because I played through all that stuff and I’d done all the side quests and all that stuff.

I wept three times throughout that, throughout that, that game. And when people would be like, uh, well, you can’t really call it video game art. I was like, if you, if it’s a game that can give you an emotional experience, then fuck.

Yeah. It’s art. Yeah.

I think we’ve come a long way since like save the princess and we’ve come a long way from like Tetris, although Tetris is still fucking great. Um, like I, I, I would like to think now that at least maybe not for the fruit, fruit critics, but like with a good portion of the public that video games are seen as art. Like I think about games like, um, oxen free Kentucky road, zero, um, life is strange.

Um, some of David cage is less masturbatory work. A mass effect to just like this idea of I’m on a narrative experience where my choices matter, um, where I go with these characters over games. Like I love in the third one, how thing is on life support, like how Morden dies, how like characters leave you, your choices matter.

You can cause genocides in that game because of your choices. And I think that’s really impactful. And I think strangely enough, the genre that you talked about, a lot of it is inspired by video games and just those images from it.

Right. Like I remember my first game I fell in love with final fantasy 10 at the best parts of that story, I felt I was responsible for the main characters on the journey. And that to me is like, what makes video games art is you feel empathy based in final fantasy, not about choices.

It’s about binary decisions they’ve decided, but like you are in charge of varying these characters to their next destination. Massive X the same way, even fucking animal crossing, which we talked about last time is the same fucking way because you’re curating your village, your villagers have affection meters, you’re building relationships with them. And like, yeah, I don’t know.

Like video games to me are the ultimate empathy driver because they’re so popular. Anyone can pick them up, but you can have experiences in games that like, where you are accountable for your characters, whether the narrative is branching or linear. And I love that about them.

And I learn so much every time I play a game that closed my mind. And the reason why I play disco Elysium, it did that last year. And like, I’m, I’m in love with the medium.

Whenever I’m uninspired, I go back to video games, anime, and movies, and I always draw something new from the well. I think there’s so much potential in I think pop culture has, it has stuff to teach us, right? Like it’s not just there, the best pop culture, the best sci fi, the best horror has something it’s not just, this would be cool. Sometimes it’s, this would be cool, but there are lessons there.

There are stories there’s, there’s importance there if we’re, if we’re willing to see it. Um, one of my favorite moments just to spill some, some, I don’t even know if it’s tea, but like, uh, recently, um, uh, I was reading Kelly Nesterov was reading the Harry Potter series in preparation for seeing the, the Harry Potter play. And it seemed to me that he was really angry that they were making him read this, this pop culture stuff because he’d never read it before.

And I found that so fascinating in a, as, as in a theatre critic who had seemingly avoided the pop culture and, uh, was, was sort of like, yes, I suppose I have to read it now, but he seemed so upset that he had to do it. And it was fascinating to read. Yeah.

I mean, I don’t know Kelly personally, so I’m not going to rag on Kelly, but I do think it’s just like, and it sucks because Cursed Child is written by a TERF and that’s frustrating, but like what Harry Potter as a series does really well is that you grow with those characters. You cannot enjoy that play unless you’ve read the books, the movies don’t count because what makes me, and I hate talking about this because JK Rowling sucks, but like what makes the book so compelling is like it mixes adventure with slice of life. The movies don’t do that, but in the books, like Ron will just have an angry day and he’ll sit and he’ll pout and he’ll be shade to his friends because lavender brown dumped him or something.

Right. And that has nothing to do with the main plot, but it’s just like a slice of life thing. And I think I haven’t seen the play.

Um, I’ve read it and like people shit on the play all the time. I want to see it before I shouldn’t. I liked the play.

I think it’s kind of cool. I don’t like how they like try to force themselves back into like their parents adventures. I think they deserve an adventure of their own, but like those events mean something in those plays to people who grew up with the books, right.

To people who like watch these two characters kind of fall in love and then fall out of love and finally kiss at that final battle. Like seeing those characters spoilers broken up at parts in the play will be devastating for those readers. So like, I don’t know.

I think episodic fiction is fantastic. And like, yeah, I don’t know that that’s my response to that. I think like, I understand like maybe, uh, I don’t know Kelly personally, but maybe he was like, Oh, I don’t have a lot of time in my hands.

But like as someone who grew up reading the books, like, yeah, there, there’s something to be said about that, about that experience of going to the feeder and seeing something that honors the books and not necessarily the movies. Like someone who only saw the movies will not have the same experience as the person who like waited every year or not every year, but just waited for those books to come out and like see these characters grow up with them. Yeah.

I think it’s too bad. Uh, what’s what’s happened, uh, like in the, in, in the zeitgeist to that series because of, you know, the, the turfness of the author, when the series, the books, the characters meant so much to people to marginalize people, to, to trans people, to, to, to gay people, to people of color, like all of these important stories and all of these things that meant meant something to people. And then she comes along, just shits all over everything.

And it makes it difficult from, to get behind a show that I should be behind because of how many people, how many actors is it employing? How much like this should be something that I can get behind because of, of, of what it’s putting into our, our local theatre scene. And yet, because, you know, she’s going to get a cut of my ticket. I’m not that enamored of it.

I feel so conflicted. Like that’s the horrible thing. Like I feel really, really conflicted.

Like I know people who’ve worked on it. Like one of my, my colleagues in Hamilton was the magic consultant for it. And he was so excited.

He was so excited. He was like, wow. Oh my God.

And whenever he posts, I’d be like, go Michael. But I know like some of my trans friends would see that and be like, fuck, this is giving money to someone who like is trying to erase my experience, who is rewarded by all right. And far right.

And not even far right people, some left and some center people who are like, I don’t believe trans people are real. Like, I don’t know. I feel really conflicted about the show being here.

Um, and yeah, it’s, it’s frustrating because like, it’s really frustrating and really disappointing because I’m sure the show will be great. Absolutely. Sure.

Um, okay. Just to change gears again, I need to know about table tennis. Oh my God.

Um, yeah. So I am right. Because I know you’ve been what’s hold on.

Okay. You’re writing a table tennis play. Tell me.

Okay. I need to know about this. I need to know about this.

Yeah. So, um, during pandemic, I just started writing again. Cause like I did a residency and it didn’t go very well and I didn’t really feel like a writer and I was kind of bummed out.

So I was like, why am I bummed out? I’m not writing a show I believe in. So let’s just write something I believe in. Um, and I was like, okay, um, what do I believe in? I am really interested in writing about narratives about anxiety right now.

I’m really interested in exploring narratives about aging and dying family members right now. And I’m really interested in stories about quests where characters go on quests to try to change something. Um, and when they accomplish the quest, um, it turns out they should have been not doing that at all.

I’m fascinated by those stories. Um, so, um, yeah, I don’t know. I started randomly writing a table tennis play.

Um, and it just keeps getting funding, Phil. Um, I was at Stratford, uh, back in 2020, uh, we built some physical score. I spent the last two years writing it with the support of lighthouse theatre.

Um, I’m the urge to create a, uh, artist in residence at Tarragon. And I’m using all of my residency money to develop a choreographic track for the show. Um, but to learn how to actually write the show, I did like a hundred hours of table tennis in 2020.

Like myself, a semi pro table tennis coach and his table tennis robot. We met every day mass on in his basement playing against the stupid robot and watching me get increasingly frustrated. So like, that’s what kind of fueled it.

Like I, I was just so angry at this robot and I put all my anger into this show and I don’t know, I’ve been working on it for two years and like, I’m really excited to like, keep working on it. Um, we just had a workshop of like just building physical theatre choreography to capture table tennis without balls or paddles or a table. I’m at Tarragon, uh, three weeks ago.

And we’re going back in September to like mix original music with it. Cause the whole idea of this play is that like characters in this show are like, they’re like symphonies when they play in sync. Cause table tennis is all about rhythm, right? The scoring of the match changes.

It’s like that scene in Scott Pilgrim where they fight the DJ team and like sex ball bomb is like playing something. The DJ chain changes the song. Like that’s what the match should feel like again, cinematic genre.

So that’s what I’m writing. But like, I also realized when I was training with this group of actors who’s in workshop, like I really like it. And I’m kind of looking for someone who wants to play table tennis with me because honestly, Phil in my burnout, I’m like, I need hobbies.

But like, if I go to like the trendy bellwood center by myself, those old Chinese men and women are going to kick my ass. We trained with them. We saw them play.

They are so aggressive. And I want to play with someone who’s like, yeah, I take this kind of seriously, but like, it’s still fun for me. Like I cannot humiliate myself in front of my old Pete, my people of another generation.

Like when I was in Vancouver, people made fun of me for not speaking Chinese. I can’t be made fun of in my, in this city. I cannot be made fun of in Toronto by a bunch of old Chinese people who are just like, you’re terrible at table tennis.

And I’m like, I know. So if you know anyone who wants to play table tennis with me not for the show, just for fun. I, they have to have a paddle.

They have to have like some experience, but like I’m down. I just want to get good at it again. Cause Phil, I need hobbies.

I feel like one of the things that the pandemic taught everybody in theatre is that you need a hobby outside of theatre. Yeah. A hobby outside of theatre and a hobby where I’m not in front of a screen.

Like I was, I’m still playing lots of video games, but I’m just like, man, like I am such a competitive person and like, I’m not great at table tennis, but when I achieve spin boy, howdy, am I excited? So if you want to, if you want to play with me, let me know. We’re not going to make this weird. I just want someone to play against it.

It can be a routine group of people, but I want hobbies that take me outside of my house. Cause I spent too much time in my house in this pandemic and I’m tired of it. We have all spent far too much time in our homes.

Yes. Aaron, thank you so much. This has been, it’s always a fun conversation.

So thanks for, thanks for coming on. Of course. Um, one more thing.

Uh, so I am co-directing a Hamilton fringe show. It’s called the house key project. Um, it takes place at four venues at theatre Aquarius.

Um, so you enter theatre Aquarius and you’re going to meet underneath one of the flights of stairs. Um, and then you, we take you on a journey into the bowels of the venue. Uh, we only have seven shows and we only have 10 tickets per show.

So like, if you’re listening to this and you’re just like, I want to see the show, make sure we’re not sold out because like, because the spaces are so small. Um, yeah. We’d love to see you there.

Can, uh, can people buy tickets for, for fringe in advance? Yeah. Yeah. Um, the Hamilton fringe is a new website.

It’s H T F C O.ca. Uh, tickets were on sale yesterday, but again, we’re not going to do like a big promotional thing until July, but that might be when this comes out. So like the moment this goes off, we’ll probably start seriously marketing it. So if you want to see a really cool youth driven show and you don’t mind exploring some kind of scary places, um, come check us out.

We’d love to have you there. It sounds great. It sounds great.

And, and, uh, and, and people who are listening, uh, uh, because of the limitation to the number of tickets should probably buy those tickets as soon as they can. Yeah.