The Cast of Three Ordinary Men

Starring Tristan Claxton, Jamar Adams-Thompson and Jack Copland, Three Ordinary Men takes us to the final day in the lives of civil rights workers Michael Schwerner, James Chaney & Andrew Goodman in 1964 Mississippi. Helmed by Taitt in her directorial debut as Artistic Director of Cahoots Theatre, Three Ordinary Men will debut in June of 2022 — the 57th anniversary of the Freedom Summer Murders.

Play by Steven Elliott Jackson
Directed by Tanisha Taitt

Tristan Claxton

Tristan is a Toronto based actor and earned a BFA in acting from the University of Windsor and an MA in classical performance from the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art (LAMDA) in the U.K.

Instagram: @tri_axton

Jamar Adams-Thompson

Jamar is a Jamaican-Candian actor and storyteller. Hailing from Mississauga, Ontario he holds a BFA-in Acting degree. He is constantly looking for new chances to tell exceptional stories. Film Credits Include: Flee The Light, Black Liberators WWII, and Kubrick. Catch Jamar next as James Chaney in Cahoots Theatre’s, Three Ordinary Men

Instagram: @jamaremery

Jack Copland

Jack is a Toronto-based actor, writer, educator, and producer. His long list of acting credits includes principal voice over (Total Drama Island), repertory theatre (Theatre on the Ridge), and internationally screened independent films (Pink Rabbit). Jack also writes and produces projects with his production company Rainy Day Films. In his free time, Jack volunteers as an instructor and assistant director with the Young People’s Theatre. Graduate of the Richard Ivey School of Business and the George Brown Theatre School.

jackcopland.com

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Transcript

Welcome to stage where the I’m Phil Rickaby, the host of this podcast, this is episode 327. Just a reminder that stage really is a one person operation. So not only do I arrange the guests and conduct the interviews, I also edit this show.

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And as I mentioned, my website is Phil Rickaby dot com. This week, I’m talking to Tristan Claxton, Jamar Adams-Thompson and Jack Copeland. The cast of Cahoots Theatre’s production of Stephen Elliott Jackson’s Three Ordinary Men, which is inspired by the real life story of civil rights workers Michael Schwerner, James Chaney and Andrew Goodman and their murder at the hands of the KKK during the early days of the 1964 Freedom Summer.

Here’s our conversation. So just to sort of jump in, if if somebody would like to give me a an elevator pitch for the two to tell me what Three Ordinary Men is about. So Three Ordinary Men is a story about three extraordinary men who traveled to Mississippi to enfranchise black voters and register them to vote and Freedom Summer 1964.

And essentially they were going down to a freedom school, which was set up to register voters and teach them about their rights. And that freedom school had been burned down by local KKK in the area. So the three of them go down and they want to clean up and rebuild and make sure that they’re not leaving the people behind that they had seen.

And little did they know, there was already plans afoot by the local KKK and law enforcement to ensure that these three individuals did not make it out of the area alive. So they were picked up, they were brought to a jail cell and held till dark and then conveniently released without a phone call and murdered. And this story really captured the especially the attention of the U.S., especially the population in the north, especially the white community in the north, because two of the three men were white northerners.

And it in an upsetting way was really what it took to make people see what was happening down there. And so that’s the story of these three individuals. As Tristan mentioned, there was a movie that was based off this called Mississippi Burning, but it’s more the aftermath.

The people that murdered them weren’t held to account and dealing with the corruption that existed there. Whereas this story is about these three young men who just wanted to make the world a better place and register people to vote as they should have been already allowed to do. Now, had you guys heard of these three before you started working on the show? I hadn’t actually.

I was sort of ignorant of the story and these three men. I had heard of the movie Mississippi Burning. I knew they were I’d sort of heard of this term, the Mississippi Three, but didn’t really know what it meant.

Didn’t know anything about the three men in particular. And I wasn’t totally clear on the on the repercussions of this story. Personally, I know Jamar has a very different personal relationship to it.

Yeah. Microphone’s hot today. Naturally, I guess, sadly to say naturally, I found out originally by my grandmother about the story.

And of course, she knew a lot more about it than even my mom and a couple of my other aunts. And I was familiar with the three names, but I didn’t exactly know in depth what their story was. It was just kind of names in passing.

They always came. Just, you know, as a trifecta altogether. But starting this process, I got to do the historical research and dive into it.

And that led me to really watch Mississippi Burning and actually see the documentary on history and and learn more about it. Hmm. I have to say, I mean, Mississippi Burning is a movie that was I mean, I’m an old man, so it was out when I was younger and I never got around to seeing it.

And it’s one of those ones that I think it’s sort of on the list. You should probably see this film. Movies are often embellished.

Right. We the movie gets made and then, you know, changes are made that are better for story because history is never clean the way a story needs to be. I’m sure that this I mean, again, you’ve mentioned that nobody was ever brought to justice for the for the killing of these three men.

And so it’s sort of like an open like what what happened to these guys, what really happened, who did it, that sort of thing. And it’s kind of the idea of, you know, this was a this was clearly a message by the Klan at the time to say to everybody, don’t come here. Essentially, it was sending a message, a very frightening message.

It didn’t work. It it the reverse happened and people were galvanized, which is which is good. It’s just terrible that this sort of thing had that this that this happened.

This is the first show for back in the Theatre for Cahoots. And I think as we as we sort of go further, people into, you know, into the whatever post covid Theatre is or whatever that is these days, people are returning to the Theatre. Have you guys been in person for any shows as actors so far, Jamar? Yeah, I had the privilege of working with Luminato Festival last summer, as well as through Pirate Life, which I know Jack is very familiar with.

We put on a rendition of Moby Dick right on the on the like right on the docks, on the ships. We got kids, we got young adults, we got locals to come through. And so that was a big privilege to do that.

Yeah. Nice. How about Jack? Yeah, this was this is my first rehearsal where we’re going to have an audience in a rehearsal hall.

I did a show in 2019 called Patch Face and we we did the entire rehearsal period of a process on Zoom. And then we met up in person in London, Ontario, and we rehearsed in the space like twice. And then we filmed the whole thing the next day.

And then other than that, I did the Window of Opportunity Festival. So it’s similar to Jamar where it was site specific outdoors. So they had a storefront.

So I was behind the storefront performing as people walked by. And yeah, but this was the first time walking to a rehearsal hall, seeing other actors and the crew. And so it was really special to be back there.

And it really increased my appreciation for what we get to do. Hmm. Yeah, same.

Same here. I had gone well over two, two and a half years without ever stepping foot inside a room with another actor. I had sort of dabbled with some Zoom theatre and stuff, but I really found it challenging.

It’s a it’s a completely different medium. And what I love about theatre is that immediacy, that connection you get to make with people in a room. And it was it was a shock coming back into into a space with fellow actors.

It was kind of like learning to walk again after being seated for two years. It was it was challenging and also very liberating and very exciting. And it’s it’s really, as Jack said, really reaffirmed what I think is special about theatre.

Really quickly, I’m curious for you guys. What was the part that felt the rustiest about going back into a room? Like what what felt like the thing that you had to to to more that you were the the the that was the thinnest as far as your body memory? I see. I see.

Jamar has his hand up. I laugh because we get this note to this day. We’re going to figure it out.

We’re going to figure it out by opening projection, man, like on film. They do everything for you. But the juxtaposition from, you know, all those years in theatre school, you’re training your voice and then everybody’s stuck indoors.

You’re on Zoom. Nobody’s doing voice workouts like nobody’s doing what they’re supposed to be doing. And that was definitely something to get back into when we started this process of realizing, well, yeah, we have to reach the back of the theatre.

Oh, I forgot about that. I mean, there isn’t a mic in front of my face. What do you all do? All sort of feel the same way.

That’s the main the main problem that you’ve been having getting back into the rehearsal. Yeah, I felt the same way. And then it’s like finding the sweet spot.

There’s sometimes where like like Jamar was saying, you know, we need to increase our projection. We need to reach the back of the house. OK, that’s very, very loud.

I’m trying to find where it is in the moment and figuring that out. So it’ll be nice when we go into the space tomorrow and then we’ll test that out. We’ll be able to experience that.

Did you guys find that your technique was rusty? I know I’m trying to get ready to do a show at the Fundy Fringe this year. And as I go through all of my texts as I’m learning it, I find that all of my voice technique has gone out the window. I get to the end of it.

I’m like, why is my throat? I’m a classically trained actor. Why is my throat sore? Did you guys find the technique was was was rusty? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah, it’s I think we sort of liken it to riding a bike. It’s like it’s there. But like for the first couple of weeks, you’re a little wobbly.

It feels a little like off the rails. So it’s it’s definitely sort of relearning what you know. Yeah, I noticed there was a Kahootz posted a video of your your your costume parade, which was very entertaining, guys.

I have to say, if if if if somebody hasn’t seen it, I recommend you go to the Kahootz Instagram page and take a look at that reel. One thing that I noticed about the rehearsal hall is plexiglass on the sides. Is that all COVID protocol to keep like breathing contained and stuff like that? What’s what’s happened? What’s the the plexiglass in the Theatres in the rehearsal hall? Go for it.

OK, I feel like, well, no, the right answer to say would be yes, but I don’t want to give too much on the play away. Oh, if you get yourself a ticket, you’ll discover what the what the plexiglass is for. Call it like a window into a scene, if you might.

OK, because I my immediate thought, because, you know, we see in in a lot of a lot of instances we’re used to, we’re suddenly used to seeing like plexiglass everywhere. And so our immediate thought is that must be COVID protocol. But now I now I understand that’s stealth set.

I won’t tell. Thankfully, it’s style over necessity. Yeah, the process of working on on on a play that is I mean, from the description, it sounds I mean, the ending is heavy.

So I don’t know what the rest of it is, but like it leads to something pretty heavy. The rehearsal process. I mean, obviously, when you guys doing your costume parade, you’re having a bit of fun.

But what has that the process been like? How do you how do you guys each process and deal with something that is so so heavy when you’re in the rehearsal hall and without feeling the weight of it? It’s it’s interesting, you know, it’s been it’s been a really unique rehearsal process for me in particular. Or I can only speak for myself. But you’re right when we’re dealing with a show that is that is so heavy, that is so difficult.

We have to ask ourselves and each other to go to places that are incredibly scary, vulnerable, heavy, for lack of a better term. The beauty of working with these two men and Tanisha and the whole team that she has there is that we one approach that work with such integrity and such grace and such beauty. It’s it’s it’s really inspiring to work with these guys.

But we can also juxtapose that with so much levity and life and happiness. I think you have to when working on work like this, you have to find ways to remember that this is a joyful experience. We are doing this because we love it.

And these these men also deserve deserve the joy that that we can bring into into a rehearsal space. And Stephen’s script is full of of wonderful levity, of of comedy, of of of love. It’s incredible what he’s managed to do of a story that that is so tragic and so full of heartbreak.

And yet he’s found such such beautiful moments of life, which is really, really incredible. Jack, Jamar, how do you how do you deal with the heaviness of it? It’s funny because usually it goes Tristan, me and Jack anyway, so in the play, you’ll find that that two of their characters. But, you know, I think Tristan really said it best.

We we approach this with an integrity and a generosity. And at the end of the day, it’s it’s a story bigger than us, you know, and that when you do work like that, you have to be willing to be vulnerable, regardless of how heavy the material is, but also understand that you’re telling these stories because you want to bring people together. Well, period.

And to understand what these men did. And when you’re doing a piece like this, camaraderie and compassion and cooperation is is the soul of it. And ultimately, it is a story of three chosen brothers fighting the good fight.

And when you’re dealing with a story like that about these characters, yes, it’s tragic, but at the same time, it’s it’s beautiful. And I think we brought a lot of our personalities to it. And I think everybody in the rehearsal hall.

You know, unspoken and spoken, understood that we just we need to be here for each other, you know, and a collective resilience is needed for for a project like this. And, yeah, the process has been so smooth. It’s been so carefree.

I say carefree gingerly because, yes, there’s the stress when you’re doing those kind of scenes. It’s, you know, but at the same time, there’s a joy in honoring these men and a joy in taking those kind of risks on on stage and doing that kind of work. And Tanisha has done an exceptional job at puppeteering us along the way, doing exercises that we didn’t even think would be helpful and and doing or even writing exercises, too.

And she just has had a way to to lead us and shepherd us with this. And, yeah, we’ve been in the best of hands. Nice, Jack.

Yeah, I echo everything that’s been said. I think, you know, Kahoot!, in addition from the beginning, said here are some mental health resources that if you’re going through something, take your time. I think that from the research that we did, who these people were, especially who they knew and the impact that they had when it came time to do those difficult moments, it was just it was there.

And we just had to trust it. And and also looking at Jamar and Tristan in that moment and going there together makes it incredibly not easier, but just you’re more brave because you’re going there together. And like Jamar said, too, you know, we want to do the story justice, too.

And but we’re also in really good hands. And it does end up on a hopeful note in terms of there’s people that exist like this that will do this. And, you know, that’s a nice, nice feeling.

What was it that Mr. Rogers said? And even in the worst situations, look for the helpers. Yep. Yes, sir.

Now, Jack, I know that you had the chance to speak to some of Andrew Goodman’s friends. I’m curious about what that was like, but also how do you approach. Talking like going to people who who knew this person, you know, this person had a huge impact, and I’m sure they answer questions all the time about their relationship with him.

But like, how do you prepare and how do you approach like going in to talk to somebody about this also tragic event? Yeah, exactly. And I was very cautious about that. So how I found that there’s the Andrew Goodman Foundation, just like there’s the James Chaney Foundation, which we can talk about.

But the Andrew Goodman Foundation, they have historical documents about Andrew’s documents when he volunteered to go to Mississippi and he had to list his emergency contacts. He needed a letter from his parents to say that he could go. And then one of the emergency contacts was a friend of his.

And I thought, you know, maybe, you know, maybe I can get in touch with his friend. Turns out that they’re a teacher at Long Island University. I found their contact info.

And I just sort of sat with that for a little while. And I was like, I don’t know. But I did reach out to them because I did more research and they were an activist and they had openly talked about Andrew’s story and knew the importance of it.

And even Andrew’s brother, David, who’s I think the head of the Andrew Goodman Foundation. He talks about how this is, yes, this is our family story, but this is an American story. This is for all of us.

So I reached out and I said, I totally understand if you don’t want to. And Andrew’s friend, Ralph Engelman said, yeah, no problem at all. You want to Zoom tomorrow? So I was like, oh, my gosh, OK.

So and I started talking with with Ralph and it was it was great. It was it was difficult because I think he gets questions just like when they went missing. They were missing for 44 days before their bodies were found.

And everybody wants to know why did they go down? What were their motives? And I think he gets a lot of questions about that. But I was also interested. I said, what was what was he like growing up? What kind of music did you guys listen to? And it was really beautiful because you got to talk about his friend.

And to look at someone in the eyes that looked at Andy in the eyes just made it super close. And it made everything just just there when it came time to do the work. And then he said, you know what? Because of the pandemic, they all went to a small private school in New York.

We all reconnected. So I can put you in touch with a couple other of our classmates. And he did.

And it’s just been wonderful not only to just get to know them, but hopefully that they can also make two of them live in Toronto. Can hopefully come to the performance. That’s awesome.

That’s great. You mentioned the foundation, so we should probably talk about about the foundations for Schwarmer, Chaney and Goodman. I know, Jamar, you are you there.

You’re something you’re really you’re passionate about, about the foundations. Could you tell me a little bit about the foundations and what they do? Yeah, for sure, for sure. I’ll start with James, of course.

The James Earl Chaney Foundation, founded by his young brother, Ben, which I just have to say off the hop, must have taken amazing amount of courage to keep fighting that fight. Yeah. So what they do basically is they still push the the envelope and the important narrative of voting and just getting black folk to where they need to be down in Mississippi, but as well as majority of the South, you know, helping out with the youth education.

At the end of the day is something that’s key with both organizations between them and the Andrew Goodman Foundation, which I know does a lot of programs to instill leadership. And I guess when I was in high school, I was I did some prefect kind of leadership courses and things like that. And that’s basically how they’ve been setting up their youth.

They have, you know, seminars like one might say TED Talk style, but that’s basically what they’re doing. They’re raising leaders and they take their nonprofit donations to to keep educating people on the importance of voting, the importance of cooperation and community and actively building that. Not just saying, hey, this is what should happen, but here are steps you can take to go do that and giving youth the tools to move forward, because, of course, it’s a lot easier to teach children and have that passed down as opposed to getting all these busy adults right on the one.

But, yeah, that seems to be the focus. You mentioned you mentioned the voting and having just come out of an election in Ontario with the lowest voter turnout in history. I wonder about, you know, what are your thoughts on the importance of voting? Have you guys here’s a question.

Absolutely. Great. Yeah, I was for me, it’s always shocking when I when because I’ve never missed an election, provincial, municipal, federal, I’ve never not voted.

And I know people, they’re like, I didn’t vote. And to me, that’s that’s such a big deal to to to not exercise your civic duty, your franchise, all of that stuff. How do you guys feel about about the importance of voting and what are your thoughts on this, this, this, the voter turnout from this last election and how it relates to this show, which is really about the right to vote? I’ll take a stab at it if you want.

Man, Phil, I was so livid when I saw that and I realized, you know, maybe I mean, you turn 18 and then you can start to vote. So when you’re in high school, you’re like, OK, I know this is important. University, I was like, no, this is important.

This is affecting me directly. I really need to care about this. But there was a different level of I want to say, oh, I almost want to say zealousness.

There’s a deeper passion there. I went to a lovely little school close to my to my house where I got to vote with my mom. And that’s just our thing.

That’s what we do. We go together, you know, and we go vote. And I couldn’t help but feel this immense weight on my shoulders.

I was like, this is the care. This is what James is trying to do, walk in there with his mom and vote. And ironically, we’re in a church, like a school in church grounds.

And I was like, why is it so empty? I was trying to figure out that from the one. And I think it is it’s sort of disheartening and very socially destructive, I would say, to see that all these all these people, especially in this pandemic, have just kind of given up or they feel like there’s a I think there was the term. This is the apathy election they were saying, just a lack of care because they felt no matter who they voted for, it was it was going to be indifferent.

But the principle of actually just going out there and speaking your piece and and doing the democracy a justice. And the fact that that disappeared even in Canada, just just for a brief moment, though, it was hard to see, man. I’m not going to lie.

It really made me think so deeply about the show and be like, this is we’re so privileged here. Like, you really need to get out of your comfort zone no matter no matter what you’re feeling, whatever party that you support. But actually go vote, like actually just the act of it is the principle itself.

And, yeah, I can’t help but think about the fact that, like, you know, as in this play, like people died, though these men died so that other people could vote. And here we are not doing the simplest thing. I was in and out in 30 seconds, literally 30 seconds to vote.

And there was no line. And in fact, when I walked by in the evening, there’s still no line. And and that worried me.

It worries me when when people are not not doing that. And I wonder, like, I don’t know about the I don’t know if it’s pandemic related. I don’t know what it is, but it seems that that a lot of people just assume it’s going to happen without them.

Sad, a sad thing. Jack, Tristan, what are your thoughts on let’s talk politics? No, what do you like? What do you what did you think of the of the outcome of the vote and how it relates to to this show? Yeah, it’s it’s deeply concerning for sure. It is the single most important act that we as citizens of this country can do.

And I think it speaks to an alarming, as as Jamar said, alarming sense of apathy throughout this country that we just don’t seem to care. We do not seem to be bothered by it. Or if we are, we’re not doing anything about it.

I don’t I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Maybe this is, you know, some sort of a way to send a message to leaderships from all parties that we are not happy with the status quo. Something isn’t working.

Clearly, you know, most of this province did not feel confident enough to take part in our civic duty. And that is that’s terrifying and that’s huge. And that should be something that that should be addressed.

Whatever the problem is, it needs to be addressed. Yeah, I’ll definitely agree with that. I think, you know, I know it’s it’s hard to get behind.

I think we had some leaders of opposition parties. It was hard to get behind. And I know we don’t vote for the leader of the party, but we kind of do.

You know, we kind of do. And so you end up with like, if I’m not enthusiastic about the leader, how am I enthusiastic about the local candidate? Unless you have a really strong local candidate. Right.

Yeah. Then it becomes super easy. But a lot of places don’t.

So you don’t show up. But then the incumbent stays in. Yeah.

Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah.

Like you were saying. And also you were saying, Jamar, in terms of the principle that it sets in terms of it’s an opportunity that you have to participate that a lot of people don’t and a lot of people haven’t. So, again, it’s the principle.

It doesn’t matter where you fall on the political spectrum, but you have that chance. So it’s the principle that you can use it. And if you don’t, that’s worrisome in terms of, oh, well, you know, then then if you don’t use that right to vote, it sort of sends a message that I’m not engaged and that and that other people can make decisions without your input, which, again, like Tristan was saying that the entire democratic experiment and that’s also what this play is kind of about, like it doesn’t work.

It’s an experiment. It’s a work in process that over time sometimes can be taken for granted. So, again, that’s why it’s a very timely story that that we hope will reinvigorate people’s appreciation for what they have and continue to get involved.

Yeah, sort of reminds me of the old quote, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. And it’s scary when most of this province has decided to do nothing. Yes, which is not good, especially with so much actually at stake, especially with so much actually.

It’s it’s it’s insane. I want to move over to something a little bit lighter. One of the things I like to do on this show is to talk to people about their Theatre origin stories.

I love to know, like, what is it that that drew you to Theatre that made you want to do this? How did you get from there to here? So please, if each of you all start with with Tristan and then we’ll go to Jamar and then Jack just to to to slightly spice up your usual order. If as you as you described it, if you could let me know, like what’s what’s what is your Theatre origin story? I mean, it’s it’s the pretty typical story. I was a somewhat troublesome youth, clearly, clearly a fan of of getting attention, a bit of a class clown.

And my my parents, bless their hearts, sort of, OK, he’s got this trait. He’s got this need to be to be seen, to be loud, to be a participant in everything around him. How do we focus this is something productive and worthwhile.

So they you know, they threw me into a little bit of everything, music, art, drama, dance. And I just kept eating it up, eating it up, eating it up. And I couldn’t get enough.

And I was lucky enough to go to a high school in Newmarket, Ontario, just a bit north of Toronto here, where I had an incredible arts program and wonderful teachers who really opened up a world to me that I didn’t know existed and sort of showed me that, like, this could be more than just something fun. It can be. A tool for for change, for growth, for it can be so much more, and also it can be a career, which was a neat revelation in grade nine of like, well, you can do this for a living.

What? So, yeah, I just carried on with that. Went to went to university here in here in Ontario, down in Windsor. Shout out to Jamar, my friend there.

And then just continue to eat things up. And then went off to England, got a master’s degree in classical theatre out there because I was really drawn to Shakespeare and the classics. And it’s just sort of it’s sort of been a nonstop ride ever since I was young.

It was just there was never any doubt, no question. I knew what I wanted and what I felt like I was put here to do. And so I keep on smashing my head against that wall.

Question for you, because where you mentioned like, like, you know, you learn in grade nine that it was something you could do like for a living. Yeah. Is that the path that your parents had had had wanted for you? Did they have a different path in mind? Sometimes I always find there are some of the fine people have to sort of like come out as a professional actor.

You know what I mean? I do. Yeah, I was I was very lucky in that. My parents from day one always said that no matter what I wanted to do, they would support me as long as there was passion.

They would support it, which is incredibly lucky and incredibly rare. And I was I am never, never loses. I’ve never lost that that realization that I’m an incredibly lucky individual to have come from that sort of family.

My parents are both very artistic themselves, love to sing, love to play music. So I grew up in a very artistic household, which which is fortunate. Nice.

Jamar, what’s your Theatre origin story? Yes. How did it start for me? It was through voice. I was similar to Tristan, man.

My brother and I, we were all over the TV watching cartoons every man between like kindergarten to grade three. No homework was done. I was watching Spongebob.

I was watching Danny, like all of it, all of Nickelodeon, the whole thing. And my parents kind of caught on early. They’re like, OK, he likes to make voices.

He likes to take his action figures in and do things like you really like storytelling. I forget what I was watching. It was Pursuit of Happiness.

I remember when that movie dropped that did everything for me, watching, watching that and being like, whoa, this is a hard hitting story. But I like I like the emotion from that. I don’t like crying, but I enjoy I enjoy what this is sending me, even though I don’t understand it.

And I think I was watching Denzel and something. I don’t know if it was training day back in the day or something, but it was like one of my first main Denzel movies. And of course, it was my mom was watching it first.

And I decided to sit down next to her and I was like, what are they doing? I was like, what is this whole thing? She’s like, well, they’re acting like, oh, OK. She’s like, yeah, like you can you can get paid for that. And I was like, this is a core memory right here.

You know what I mean? That was that changed everything for me. And I had some of the most amazing teachers in my middle school and my elementary school say you should join the school play, join the musical. Like every time you do creative writing, we love the way you speak.

Like you have a voice for this. Go do this thing. And I was like, all right, everybody’s telling me I should be in the arts.

But I don’t know. Being a lawyer might make more money. Being a wildlife conservationist might be better.

Apparently, I wanted to be a pastor at one point. Everything but acting. I was like, but I should probably make some money.

Right. And I went to high school and I chose my high school based on. Just on the grapevine, I heard that they had a phenomenal drama professor there who turned out went to the University of Windsor, which is where I would.

Our hero here would end up. And yeah, he he saw me do this little monologue. I think it was from was it Arthur O’Shaughnessy? It’s like we are the music makers.

We are the dreamers of dreams. It kind of goes with that kind of start. He gets up in front of the class.

He’s just like, we have an actor. And I was like, yeah, and I got I got to like, I think I got to pursue this thing now. And he was just very supportive of that.

I went to do my auditions and got into Windsor. And I was like, this is definitely what I want to do. I want to be a storyteller.

I want a platform for people to listen to so I can just have that influence to bring good about in the world. I had so many things that I wanted to fix the environment, you know, that religious background of like talking to people, healing people. And my favorite my favorite movie was Pursuit of Happiness.

Clearly, there’s some altruism there. There’s some some feel good stuff there that I didn’t really know until I realized the influence that you can make from being an actor and just the essence of storytelling. And that’s that’s basically where I came through.

And that’s what I’d like to do. As I’m curious about because you mentioned like, you know, lawyer, this sort of thing to make money. But you also mentioned pastor, which is not something that most people mentioned as as a preacher’s kid myself.

I’m wondering if did you have a pastor in the family? And is that what made you think of that? Because it’s not something that people often go like, I think that’s what I’m going to do. Well, man, coming from two immigrant parents from Jamaica, we were always in church. I had hair cut short, dressed to the nines.

I missed out on a lot of Saturdays. They had to drag me away. New episodes of SpongeBob I couldn’t see right off the hop.

So, yeah, it’s a very religious background in Jamaica. A lot of them are Seventh-day Adventists. So everyone’s a pastor in the family.

Everybody’s in choir. Everybody’s in Sunday school. Like both my parents were heavily involved in their churches, both in Toronto and back home.

So it’s a big part of my upbringing. And I was I don’t recall saying I wanted to be a pastor. But at some point when I was young, they said this was the case.

But yeah, yeah. It’s interesting. My dad was it was an Anglican priest and the church that he was in Saturdays.

There was like this this complex of three churches in the Baptist church. Essentially, there was a Seventh-day Adventist church that used the Baptist church on this on the Saturdays. And we would like if there was like some kind of event, I would just be like, they’re in there a long time.

That is that’s a lot of church. And, you know, I’m a preacher’s kid. So part of it is like, but, you know, that’s a long time.

I’m gonna be real. Yeah. If you’ve ever been to black churches, it’s always a whole day affair.

Honestly. Right. Did did you know you with all of these other things that you wanted to do? Did you have to come out as an actor? Did your family want that for you or did they fight that? Or similar to Tristan, they they just cared that I was passionate about something.

And, you know, they never missed a show, which is so rare. And that’s that’s so lucky to have that. And both of them.

I mean, my mom works for the city. Actually, they both work for the city. My dad was always doing like truck driving internationally.

So very different stuff. I mean, he was also very educated, too. So it’s just like at one point he wanted to be a lawyer.

So I think that’s where I got that from him. But they’re just like, oh, you want to be an actor? Like, yeah, go for it. I was like, well, that wasn’t that hard.

All my friends are getting reamed up for not being doctors and like engineers. I was like, like both my best friends, one’s in med school, one just finished up engineering. And I’m just like, you don’t want to come to my show.

But no, my parents were very, very supportive of that, which is a huge blessing. And that that helped me gain the confidence to keep going for it. Nice.

Nice. Awesome. Jack, what’s what is your Theatre origin story? Well, I think, as you said, Jamar, there’s certain memories that that like are foundational.

So I think in grade three, we had a school concert and I was also very gregarious and like was told to maybe sit in the timeout chair sometimes for drawing a lot of attention. But then they had this presentation. They’re like, you can you can play.

And I remember I was standing on the pavement outside of the gymnasium and I got so excited. And I almost had this moment where it went like, oh, and I was like, I was kind of hooked from that moment on. I was like, this is this is such a nice feeling, but at the same time, terrifying.

And then I also weirdly when I was young, I really enjoyed the movie The Godfather. And then everything kind of came out of that because then I found out I was like, oh, and I saw a photo of Marlon Brando and I was like, oh, wait, he wasn’t that old. What was he doing? How did he do that? And then and then I learned about Al Pacino and then like the the group Theatre and Stella Adler.

And so I was reading books, but there wasn’t like a lot that I knew of in terms of Theatre growing up. Like we did presentations and things like that. And it wasn’t till till when I went to university at Western and then I joined the Theatre clubs there because when I was reading these biographies of these actors that I loved, a lot of them, when they especially in the States were in college, joined the Theatre clubs.

So that’s kind of how I started. And then, you know, reading this biography, some of them went to Theatre school and then I went to Theatre school. So it’s sort of just finding one step at a time.

And and now we’re here. But you started you went to you studied business administration before Theatre. So what was it? What was the the like? Why did you choose that? And was that like a denial of Theatre or was that something else? Well, you know, that was also like a family plan that was agreed upon.

But the way that the program worked was that you did two years on main campus. And then if you hit your prerequisites and you went to the business school for two years. So then I chose what I wanted to do for the first two years, which is political science.

And I didn’t honestly didn’t really know what that was. It sounded super legit, like two strong words, political science. But then when I was there, I got to choose my electives.

And then I had this amazing English teacher at Western, MJ Kidney. And then just again, there’s all these happenstance things. She was like, you know what? Because I did the Theatre play.

She said, next year, we’re going to start the Theatre studies program. So would you like to be in the first class? So that was we didn’t really act, but we just studied plays. And we just broke down plays and read plays.

So then once I’m in there and everything’s going well, it’s like, OK, now it’s time to go to business school, which was great. I really enjoyed it. Actually, I went to the same business school as Simu Liu, who’s now in the Marvel Universe.

Yeah. But while I was there, I still did the plays on main campus. And I had a really good time.

And everybody, you know, from my from my class would come to the plays. And, yeah, it’s been super helpful. But then I did want to learn a technique.

I was sort of going off like by the by the seat of my pants and like things that I read in books. So that’s why I was like, I want to I want to study this. What school did you end up going to or did you stay at Western? I went to George Brown Theatre School.

So I graduated there in 2020. They came in our last week when there was rumblings of the pandemic. And then on the Monday, somebody said, like, do you think maybe our shows will get canceled? And I was like, I don’t think so.

And then Friday they came in and said, you got to get out of the building. You graduated. Congrats.

What a what a way to graduate. By the way, I’m a I’m a I’m a George Brown graduate myself. Class of 1990.

I guess I don’t need to worry about saying I didn’t say 1990 something. So, like, I don’t know what I was trying to do. Hiding the last number.

The the the business administration thing is is interesting. Have you been able have you used any of the things that you know from business administration in your actor’s life? Yeah, well, when I first moved to Toronto, I didn’t really know any of the Theatres or the network there. Like Jamar, I grew up in Mississauga.

So then when I came to Toronto, like I knew of like Mirvish. That was like I knew of that. But then I like literally would walk around and then I went to this Theatre and I wanted to get to know them.

So I started volunteering. So I said, hey, you know, these are the sort of things that we did in terms of like balance sheets, ticket data stuff. Process stuff like I’m I have some free time in the summer.

I’d be happy to help you out. So then I kind of like would find out about their events and go there. And then ultimately to, you know, understanding budgeting and how to make your cash flows work and savings and things like that.

Like all very helpful things to to to keep you ready and available to to to find the work and seek the work. Nice, nice. Tristan, I know that when you’re not acting, you are a film grip with IATSE.

Indeed. Back when I was in Theatre school, they would have told us not to do that. And they would have told us not to do that because I think they were afraid that if somebody knew that we could do something other than acting, we would be in too much demand for that thing and nobody would ever let us do that other thing.

I know that is no longer really the case. I know too many people who are multi hyphenate as far as their career. How have how have you found being on the technical side and the acting side and how how do those relate or what is the tension between the two? I found it to be incredible.

There’s a there’s a beautiful synergy between both. I mean, I started gripping, I guess, about two years ago or so, sort of during the pandemic when there wasn’t any live Theatre happening. I used to work as a carpenter, as a Joe job when I was acting the city.

So I was like, well, you know, this is sort of a merging of my two two skill sets. So I jumped in there and it’s been it’s been phenomenal. Specifically, I’ve started really gravitating towards dolly gripping, which is sort of the the the choreography and movement side of the camera.

And I find that those that my skills as an actor, my understanding of storytelling really fits together with that. In order to in my experience, in order to be a good dolly grip from what I’ve seen from the pros out there, you have to have that innate artistic sense. It’s more than just a technician.

There is such creativity in that of of feeling the shot, feeling the moment. What what does this story, what does this character need in terms of movement, intensity, subtlety? So I find that there is a huge amount of overlap. That said, both careers are incredibly time demanding.

So it is it is difficult to juggle both. Thankfully, I’ve been with crews that have been kind enough to sort of let me spread my wings when a show comes along and I go off and they’re supportive. And then I’m able to sort of jump back on with them and continue, continue shooting.

So it’s been it’s been a unique challenge. And of course, just just being on a film set and watching other actors work is is just an invaluable thing in any in any situation. So, you know, getting to see some of the some of the big dogs, some of my idols.

I was working on a show with Anson Mount just before I started this one and just watching his his process and his incredible professionalism and focus. OK, that’s got to write that down. As a as a nerd, I’m saying to myself, I wonder what show that was.

One of one of two nerd shows shooting in Toronto right now. One of the things that’s interesting, you mentioned, like getting into that on the during the pandemic. What other things, Jack and Jamar, what what kind of things did you guys start doing or take on during the pandemic that were either new to you or or things that you were able to pursue that you hadn’t before? All right, we’ll keep with the order.

Son of a gun. See what I mean? I started learning some languages. And so currently I’m on French and Japanese.

Yeah, it’s the biggest headache trying to switch back and forth, but it’s definitely worth it. But, yeah, I started getting into like more linguistics and started writing more, especially after I just finished my undergrad. So like poetry, slam poetry, like rap and just like things like that.

So, yeah, that’s what I got into. Now, was writing something you did pre-pandemic or was this something that you took up during the pandemic? That actually started well, started in school. We had this course called Character Study.

Tristan knows what I’m talking about. Basically, you write and direct your own 20 minute piece and you do these interviews with real people of your choice to get inspiration for your character or characters. And you just you write basically and they kind of teach you how to write your own play.

And I love that experience. I didn’t think that writing was something that I would be drawn to. But I remember, again, all those cartoons.

I was like, I should write one of these days, like write myself a good a good screenplay. So I just started writing soon after that. And I’ve been in and out, but keeping that up over the course of the pandemic.

But it started right in my final year. Nice. Jack, how about you? Yeah, so when the pandemic started, I was serving at that time, but then that went away.

And then I got a gig writing described video for movies and TV shows. So basically, you know, if there’s any action, then you write that out because we’re like the stage directions. That was a great gig.

And I think it was similar for a lot of people that I know, like the sort of a lot of us that had to pause sort of what do we want to do? So me and two friends, we started a production company and we produced a music video. And then similarly, I wanted to write. It was actually at the beginning of the pandemic.

I was reading a Shakespeare biography and it was weird because it was like I’d watched the news and it was like all the Theatres are shutting down for the next little while. And then I’m reading this Shakespeare thing before bed. And it’s like and then that began the shutting down of the Theatres for the next little while.

And then it was like so Bill decided to write King Lear. And I was like, oh, maybe I should do that. So then I tried.

So I started writing. I started reading books on screenplay writing. And luckily, I had some good friends from the Theatre studies program at Western that became poets and playwrights.

And they invited me to writers groups. And that was just a great thing, like an anchor of an hour a day sitting down and writing a screenplay. So other than that, yeah, lots of gigs, lots of spinning plates, keeping those up.

And now we’re here. You mentioned writing for an hour a day, and I think that’s that’s so important because sometimes you can get caught up in the it’s an hour. It’s not much at all, but it’s more than nothing.

If you could if all you could fit in is an hour a day, you’re doing pretty well, really. And after a while, you’ll have a thing. Did you like with all the things that you were juggling, did you find it hard to find that hour or was it just like in your calendar and it was sacrosanct and there? Yeah, well, that was at the beginning of the pandemic was building a routine for myself.

So like I have my agenda. I think all three of us have agendas and we were all like admiring each other’s agendas. But I would need to do like a certain amount every day.

And like even if I just sat down for a half hour and checked in with stuff, I would like to do more. But especially, you know, with auditions, you don’t know what your day is going to look like. But having that hour, like you said, over time, that’s going to build up and sometimes you need to digest.

And because I think at the beginning I said, OK, today let’s write King Lear. But I was like, no, this is a this is a day by day process. And same with the preparation for this.

This play was I said, OK, I’m not I’m not going to do like, you know what? Today is where I’m going to do all my research. I said I’m going to do a little bit every day. And then over time, by the time I look back on everything that I had from such varied sources and different head spaces that I was at over the two year period, I was like, wow, I have a pretty varied understanding of this.

So, yeah, breaking it down into bite sized pieces and not trying to eat it whole. Nice, nice. Jamar, you mentioned about the fact you mentioned that you love reading and you spend a lot of time at Indigo or used bookstores.

I have two questions. What’s your favorite used bookstore? Second, do you have a go to genre for reading? Oh, boy. Oh, the answers are yes.

The answers are yes. I think I want to make sure I get the name right. I have it in my calendar.

So, OK, I think it’s OK. So it’s in downtown Detroit on Lafayette Boulevard. I think it’s off of John and King.

I’m going to find the name for you at some point. But it’s so run down that it’s one of those ones where it’s like the signs, like one of those broken pieces of planks that you don’t even know where you’re really at. But you go in there and it’s like this ocean of shelves.

And it’s just like I’m talking those huge tomes that you’d see out of like a Tolkien novel. Like it’s just it’s gorgeous. Detroit’s great.

I will always hype that city up. So if you can find that spot, go there. But that’s definitely up there.

And there’s some comic book stores in Kensington that I’m a big fan of as well. Pretty much all of them. I just usually hop back and forth.

But my favorite genre of reading is tied between, of course, fantasy and Lovecraftian horror. I’m a huge fan of Lovecraft, actually. Nice.

Yeah. Which, considering that Lovecraft is terrible racist, it’s hard. It’s like it’s like you’re reading it and it’s like, holy shit, he said that.

Like, and then you have and then you have something as brilliant as the series Lovecraft Country. Yeah. Lovecraft Country was a book before it was a series.

Had you read that book before the series or. Actually, no, I OK, I was I think it was around halfway the first novel that it left me for like ages. And I saw the show and I was like, yes, Jonathan Majors, that’s my guy.

So I was I was every every episode I was on that series very much loved it. But I do think it’s time to go back to the books for sure. Sure.

Sure. And of course, Jonathan Majors, he’s King of the Conqueror. So you can’t go wrong.

You said it best, Phil. You said it best. You you also you you mentioned you mentioned comic books.

I don’t know about the other guys. I don’t know. I don’t know how many nerds we have on the call.

Oh, yeah. Awesome. Awesome.

All right. All right, guys. So we’re going to we’re going to leave Theatre for a second.

Just for a second. I don’t get to nerd out as often as I would like these days. So did you growing up, did you have a favorite comic book or character? And is it still the same now? Jamar Jamar has like all of his hands in there.

This is this this is like literally half of my spirit. Spider-Man. And before you even knew who Miles Morales was, it was Peter for like at least 10 years.

And then, of course, they realized, you know, there’s a black Spider-Man. I was like, yo, how did I not know this from birth? Spider-Man is definitely number one. I’m a huge fan of Black Bolt because I love characters that you sound.

I mean, Batman, duh, of course. But Moon Knight, I actually really started to get into before I went into university. And I’m glad I did because it’s huge now.

Thanks to Oscar Isaac. But yeah, those are those are some of my characters. I’m always a fan of X-Men as well.

Sure. Yeah. Other Tristan, Tristan, Jack, what about you? Yeah, not so unique to myself.

It was it was always Peter Parker. It was Spider-Man for sure. I mean, I imagine it’s a lot for similar for a lot of, you know, more artistic children growing up.

We were probably not the coolest, not the biggest, not the toughest in the school. So to have this character who was, you know, smart, quirky, kind of downtrodden, but could still find this incredible spirit and such power within that was just how could you not love it as a kid? And just like, I want to be you. I want to swing around the city on on ropes and get the girl.

Awesome. Awesome, Jack. I didn’t read a lot of comics growing up, but I read the Bone series.

I love reading the Bone series. And then in terms of my favorite superhero, I always love the Incredible Hulk. I mean, you can’t really go wrong with with comic book Hulk.

There have been a lot of wrongs in comic book Hulk movies, but like you can’t really go wrong with comic book Hulk. There’s more depth than they’ve been able to put into a movie. So and of course, we wouldn’t have a character like Wolverine without the Hulk.

Thank you for saying it. Thank you for doing your research. Doing my research.

This is my life. It’s good to see you, brother. That’s probably the nerdiest I have allowed myself to get on this podcast.

So thanks, guys, for bringing that out. I’ve had a lot of fun talking to you guys. Thanks so much for making the time on such short notice.

And thanks for your patience and putting this together today. Thanks a lot. Thanks for having us.

It’s been a joy. Thank you. It’s been amazing.

Thank you. Yeah. Nice to meet you, Phil, and all the best.