Crystal Lee

Crystal’s interest in technical theatre and management began in her home province of New Brunswick where she worked as a Theatre Production mentor at the University of New Brunswick. She’s since trained in the Opera Management Program at the Banff Centre for the Arts and is a graduate of the National Theatre School of Canada. Previously, Crystal has worked at the National Arts Centre on the management team, and began her independent career as a freelance Production Manager in Toronto where she received a Harold Award for her contributions to the community. Crystal is also the co-founder of What by When (WxW), a production firm advocating for culturally/environmentally sustainable and standardized Production Management and Technical Direction practices within the industry. Crystal has continued her involvement in production advocacy through her membership in the collective, Means of Production, and through her national board seat on the Canadian Institute of Theatre Technology. She now works full time with Why Not Theatre as their Production & Technical Manager.

Instagram: @crystallee.__

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Transcript

Welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host of this podcast. This is Episode 322.

Stageworthy is a one-person operation, so not only do I arrange the guests, I edit the show, I promote it, I even created the music that’s running under what I’m saying now. I also shoulder all the financial responsibilities that keep this show going, so if you enjoy this podcast, please consider supporting it. There are a few ways that you can do that.

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Even a retweet helps. You can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod, and you can find the website with the archive of all 322 episodes at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickaby, and as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com. My guest this week is Crystal Lee. Crystal is the production and technical manager at Why Not Theatre and the co-founder of What By When, a production firm that advocates for cultural and environmentally sustainable production and technical practices in the theatre industry.

Originally from New Brunswick, Crystal has worked in technical theatre and management across Canada. Here’s our conversation. Just to jump into things, could you— One of the things that I’m—I want you to describe what you do at Why Not Theatre.

Tell me what a production and technical manager is. Well, it’s—I think the simplest term is just a production manager, but because there is no one else who’s sort of accountable for production and technical departments at Why Not, we’re a relatively small organization. I think we have about 12—12 full-time folks now who’ve joined us in different departments now.

We have a marketing department, which was not something that Why Not had pre-pandemic. Hey, that’s pretty nice. It’s good to have.

It is, yeah. It’s good to have someone like be on social media and like understand all the like style guides of what Why Not is. I’m certainly noticing an impact, and I like to think that, you know, having someone full-time as a production person on the Why Not team is also effective.

So yeah, I’m essentially a production manager, but I oversee all production and technical aspects going into projects. Why Not has a very interesting—or maybe I would say like interesting. Everyone uses interesting as if it’s like, oh, that’s interesting.

But really, this is more like unconventional, and I really love the way Why Not categorizes the work and the priorities that they do. So I’m just basically the point person for the execution process of all of that. Yeah.

One of the things that I—the whole production side, the technical side, for a long time has been a boys club. Yeah. And I know, like, you know, that’s changing.

I think the leadership, though, is largely still largely a boys club. How do you see, in your day-to-day, how do you see that production leadership and the technical side changing that way? Yeah, that’s a great question, and I think it’s a question I get a lot in the industry. And I actually really enjoy answering it because I really believe in the growth that’s happening on my side of the industry.

How do I see that growth, I guess? Is that what the question was? I mean, you could take it however you want. I mean, the thing is that I think, you know, it’s been somewhat stagnant. Like, when I’ve looked backstage at a number of productions, there’s a long list of male names there.

And that’s sort of a legacy of both misogyny and the history of how people fell into that side. But I know it’s changing. I’m seeing a lot more both female and non-binary names come out in there.

So we do see the change. I’m just curious about how you—like, do you think it’s moving at an appropriate pace, or would you like to see it faster? What’s that journey been like from where you sit? Yeah, I guess I have a personal experience with that question. And then I would say removing myself—not entirely, but removing myself from my own lived experience and seeing the changes.

I would say there is growth. And I think sometimes maybe it’s behind closed doors almost, or not behind a curtain, if you will. Where it’s like a particular aspect of the industry is maybe seeing more growth than other aspects.

I would say institution, you’ll see a lot of union members who are still within that old guard, maybe that same sort of archetypal crew person who once was a roadie, so to speak, and then has moved on into larger houses. I’ve spent some time very early in my career working in larger houses. I worked at the National Arts Centre for a while, and I think in my experience there, I only really saw a handful of women, women-identifying crew leads.

And then during my time there, which was about five years ago, they had brought on a head of props who was female. And that was a huge difference in leadership, and I think a huge difference in how people saw leadership, particularly in that context. So that was a very positive change.

And I think I’m seeing more and more of that kind of pop up all over the place. In the indie world, I think there are a lot of female, non-binary women-identifying production managers, technical directors. There are also some other marginalized communities that lack representation within that field, but slowly but surely it’s happening.

I would say it’s happening more for bringing up more representation in gender than it was before. Yeah, I feel like indie often leads the charge in a lot of ways. What sort of happens in indie eventually finds its way moving up towards the more established theatres.

And so I’m hoping that this is the kind of thing that sort of trickles upwards a little bit faster. I hope so too. And I believe in indie and its lasting impact.

I know a lot of suppliers who are now, I don’t know, once did that fun Shakespeare in the Park as a carpenter and is now leading a major shop in town, still has an indie heart. And they provide discounts and they provide resources and they provide mentorship. It really does feel like there’s a lot of camaraderie.

I mean, there’s camaraderie everywhere in theatre. But for some reason, indie, knowing that we’re all kind of in it together, whether it’s part of your job description or not, you want to see the thing happen because you know that it has value. You know the project has value.

You know your teammates have value. You’re not in it for the money, so to speak. And yeah, that impact kind of stays with you.

I like to think it certainly lasted with me now that I’m in a full time position. I want to find ways of offering resources and offering clarity and mentorship where I can. I think mentorship is one of those things that is so important in the industry, especially where leadership is concerned generally.

And it’s something that I think for a long time we haven’t seen much of, or at least it wasn’t really easy to find. And I think that we are seeing more mentorship. Did you have mentors that sort of like helped guide you and give you advice along the way? Yeah, definitely.

And I think mentorship is a two way street. So a lot of my mentors also had that agenda as well. They were like, you know, you have a lot of value, whether that be in your gender or your race.

You know, I’m a mixed race Asian person, Chinese person, and my parents are immigrants. And, you know, to have that sort of like, I don’t know, experience that I bring to the table within my own leadership style or expectation, that was a big learning for a lot of my mentors that I had. Both of my mentors are mostly, I would say, like white presenting.

Oh, there we go. We’re okay. One second.

Oh, hilarious. Yeah, so those mentors, you know, always wanted to, I guess there were more collaborators than they were like full mentors, if we want to say it that way. Like it was just a very collaborative experience.

I had things to talk about and they had things they wanted to share with me. And they’ve stayed with me throughout my career. My first mentor, his name is Paul Delmont from New Brunswick, which is where I’m originally from.

And he’s the one who actually brought me into theatre. He was the one who said, you know, let’s spite all of these men who think that you can’t do what you do and let’s show them. And that was like very inspiring to have someone who, you know, is widely accepted in that side of the industry.

And to endorse me to be a leader in that community meant a lot to me. So, yeah, we, you know, we touch base every now and then. And then after I went to theatre school, I did my internship at the National Arts centre where I met Spike Lyne.

And Spike, such a funny, like scary name for a mentor. Spike was my mentor. Yeah, he, you know, was also extremely collaborative, like really looked out for me.

Never made me feel like I was othered, you know, which is like not the experience I had with other folks of, you know, that age bracket or that knowledge, institutional knowledge. So, yeah, to this day, like Spike and I call each other every now and then and, you know, shoot the shit. Nice.

Yeah. Where in New Brunswick did you grow up? I grew up in what they call the armpit of the province just because of the shape of where it is. But northern New Brunswick, a small place called Bathurst.

OK. Population 16,000 people. I was just wondering because I know there’s there’s several parts, depending on where you’re from, that might be referred to as the armpit of New Brunswick.

I think it’s only it’s I don’t think it’s like stinky or bloody in any way. I think it’s just like in the arm of. Yeah, yeah.

No, I don’t know. Who knows why they call it that. So in New Brunswick and growing up there, what what what was your first introduction to theatre and how did you how did you find your way to the technical side? Yeah, it was a journey.

I met up with an artistic director the other day for a show that I’m sort of involved with, and he was like, I resent that you’re from the Maritimes. And I like don’t know what that means, but I guess it means, you know, like to be, I don’t know, involved in what we might identify Toronto as like the hub, you know, of arts and culture of Canada. I don’t know, theatre for sure.

Or at least that’s how I saw it when I was in the Maritimes. I think this AD was like, how did you get here? You know, and I’ve been thinking a lot about this question. Like, how did I get here? When I was young, I would say I was very interested in the magic of it all.

And I think maybe maybe the stereotype is that you’re like so engulfed in the magic. And I was like, oh, magic is cool. But like, how how do you do that? It’s not magic.

It’s like there has to be some logic to it. There has to be like, what are how do I execute that magic? So I will say I was very like type A and like really understanding how one does a cool effect that can be masked as something like theatre. So I saw the Velveteen Rabbit and the magic in that show was not magic at all.

I think it was a scrim that came down in the front of the stage and the way they played with lighting to to animate the rabbit from the stuffed animal to like the character was really mesmerizing. And so that was really interesting for a long time. After I graduated from high school, I stayed in New Brunswick.

I went to a university called Mount Allison University in Sackville, which maybe we could consider it the knee of New Brunswick. I don’t know, like the toe. It’s like sort of more south of New Brunswick.

Also a very small town. I think population there was 5,000 people. And that’s like with the population of the university.

A lot of like, you know, black box theatre, studio theatre. I was an actor there for a little while. I really enjoyed acting.

I really just enjoyed the camaraderie of like being backstage and like, yeah, being with, you know, finding your network and being with pals and commiserating together. But I also was really I was really good at pointing out mistakes backstage crew. So I would I was the one who was like, you know, I have notes.

I have notes about glow tape. I have notes about how I was dressed today. I have notes about this.

So clearly my mentor, Paul, who I mentioned earlier, saw this and wanted to hone it into reframe it into something maybe a little bit more practical for me. He suggested that I apply for this job in Parsborough, Nova Scotia at a decommissioned ship that then became a theatre called Ships Company theatre. He told me to apply for the head tech position, which seems wild.

I was an actor who like just had a lot of production notes to give, and he suggested I apply for the job. I did. The person who interviewed me was like, do you know how to hang a light? I was like, no.

He hired me anyways. Nice. Yeah, yeah.

So, I mean, it was a, you know, a great learning curve. I learned so much. I was in the middle of nowhere in Nova Scotia.

I had a really great team. I think my carpenter was from Toronto. So she was also, you know, another great female leader, I think, early in my career.

She was a badass and I wanted to be like that. I also had a couple friends with me who like were stage managers on this gig as well. So I guess I had a lot of like passion for being with these people and working on these shows and like having agency in the technical world.

And my curiosity just, you know, spiked. And I like wanted to learn more about electrics. I wanted to know more about like carpentry.

I wanted to know more about adhesives for some reason. Like I had all these bizarre curiosities that just came out of this experience. And then when I got back to university, you know, Paul and I had a great conversation about what my next steps, what I wanted to do as my next steps.

And he provided some more resources. And then I kind of like reframed my degree a little bit to do more of the technical management side of things. After that, I actually took a different approach.

I got a job in administration. In education, actually, at a roadhouse. So I was involved in like bringing in all these clients and all these artists who came from mostly Toronto.

Toronto and BC, I would say, who would come in and they would do a show and also provide ancillary programming. So my job was to like, you know, provide or like coordinate workshops that were given to marginalized communities in Fredericton. So, you know, we would have an Indigenous dance troupe come and then we would like provide dance workshops with Indigenous communities in New Brunswick, which was really lovely.

Because at the time, New Brunswick’s education system was like really not arts forward. It was not considering arts as like a priority. And so it was cutting a lot of funding in that way.

And I guess like I had another passion kind of, you know, spike from that. And that was really figuring out how to how to broaden the scope of access for the arts. That idea of, you know, cutting the arts.

That’s something that’s, I think, been happening more and more in North America. The idea that this strange idea that the arts are just for the elite. They’re just for rich people.

It’s like it’s not important. We don’t need to worry about it. We can just sort of get rid of it as we cut theatre programs and music programs and art programs and all this sort of stuff.

Yeah, we just look, you know, at Europe and England and other places where these are things that are like funded and people see them as important. So important that like if the government was to talk about cutting them, they would people would be very upset about it. Yeah.

Yeah, it has been pretty tough. I would say being on the on the merit, like being a maritimer and experiencing that was a different experience than coming to Toronto and seeing that. Also, you know, I went to school in Montreal and I would even say like the French, the structure for funding for the French arts is different than on the English side.

And, you know, within that there is white supremacy and within that there is like inequity. You know, I really enjoy working for culturally specific companies, but I am saddened by the fact that a culturally specific company can only be a culturally specific company in order to qualify for funding sometimes. Like it’s not like they could do, I don’t know, like like Romeo and Juliet that didn’t include some sort of narrative on, you know, social justice or racial justice.

Yeah. I kind of went on a tangent there. That’s too bad because I think that I think I think there’s a lot of companies that would do some really amazing work just by just with the play without having to feel like they had to add anything else.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s so true.

And I think, you know, these companies, they’re really driven by the mandate of like making sure that there is representation. But I just think all companies should have that mandate. Like, I don’t know why we have to have culturally specific companies kind of leading that change as opposed to everyone just doing that and everyone doing all the kinds of Romeo and Juliet’s that they want to, you know.

Yeah, I have this. I have this this idea, this this theory that that that a lot of times companies spend a lot of time honing their grant applications and trying to fulfill what they’ve stated for their mandate through that. And that just sort of like fill filters into this very literal way into the productions that they’re doing and maybe is not as I don’t know what the word is.

I think some people get a little too stuck on how they’re writing their grants. That’s just me. I think that’s that’s definitely true.

And I think, you know, these days I’m kind of advocating for I want to say something I probably made up and then just I’ve made it up with such confidence that it’s become law kind of thing. Like I often advocate for production management dramaturgy, which is just an opportunity to like sit down with an artist. And it doesn’t necessarily just have to be production.

It can be like, you know, maybe you want to have maybe you are doing something culturally specific and want to engage in like a consultant who can really speak for that. And how do we open up, you know, the process of grant applications and and building what that is a little bit more in line with what you want your project to be so that costs can reflect and values can reflect better. Yeah.

Yeah. I would love to see a world where that is more normalized. Yeah.

Sort of a bit of a tangent, but I think it’s related. Years ago, I was it was out for Nuit Blanche. I remember for Nuit Blanche.

And I remember, you know, you go through Nuit Blanche and a lot of times you’re going through the program and you’re trying to figure out what the thing that you’re going to see actually is. Because it’s sort of a description that’s that’s like it talks about what it represents and and and all these all these really symbolic meanings and stuff. And you never really know what it is.

And then one time I came across this installation somewhere that somebody had done and they had constructed like this, this, this, this house structure. And they put lights on it and they put some balloons on it. And I was like, OK, so tell me what does this mean? And they said, I just thought it would be cool to put lights and balloons on this thing.

Oh, my gosh. Art for art’s sake. I thought, wouldn’t it be amazing if we could just say, I thought it would be cool to do this thing.

And people would be like, that sounds cool. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I guess you’re saying that, like, in a way, we’re almost not that we’re fudging anything in a grant application, but like the ideas aren’t really distilled enough to like.

Yeah, I feel like sometimes they’re esoteric and and and and and, you know, the excitement is I thought it would be cool to put a balloon and lights on this thing rather than sort of like, you know, I thought that the symbolism of the this, you know, that’s sort of that’s sort of like art speak. Yeah, yeah, it’s so true. You know, here’s another tangent that I’ll.

Yes, please. Just because I really live in this curiosity of like, what is art? What is music? You know what? What is dance? What is movement? And on top of, you know, trying to pursue this acting career or this acting degree in university, I also did a degree in in music composition. And my specialty was 20th century atonal music, because I loved this philosophy of like, what is the difference between music and sound? Is sound music? Is like music a collection of sounds? What is that? And so some of my favorite composers, I mean, I guess in the atonal world, this is a pretty like basic one.

But John Cage, you know, did this amazing piece called 433, where it was four minutes and 33 seconds. And he like notated, he made charts for an entire symphony to just sit there and do nothing for four minutes and 33 seconds. And, you know, watching this, it was televised once on BBC, and I watched the televised version.

And the audience interaction to that was so interesting, because of this like narrative of like, ah, this is pretentious art. Right. You have to sit in the audience and like hold our breaths and like experience silence for four minutes and 33 seconds.

And then in between the movements, that’s when we can shuffle out of our chairs and, you know, sneeze and cough and clear our throats and do whatever we do. And then as soon as the baton goes back up, that’s when we all hold our breath and like really intently look at the symphony doing nothing for another, you know, a minute and a half. Just very interesting about how we perceive art.

And I guess maybe this goes back to like the access of like where art is produced and how it’s produced and how it’s marketed and who goes to see the art, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I find, you know, we were in an industry where it’s one of the only industries in the arts where somebody says things like I saw a play once and I didn’t like it.

So I don’t do theatre. Right. You know, and occasionally people talk about how expensive it is.

And it’s like, well, that’s only if you’re going to certain theatres like there’s so much more out there. But trying to break down these ideas that it’s hard to find or it’s inaccessible and or just expensive, just like there’s so much more than what people think it is. Yeah, that’s for sure.

And I, you know, to go back to Indie, I think Indie is really pushing what that convention can and can’t be. You know, I think it’s I think it’s sometimes nice to like, you know, go to the Princess of Wales theatre and like really experience theatre and maybe that bougie kind of way. There’s definitely like some value in doing that.

There’s also value in, you know, going to a pop up or like a Nuit Blanche and not really knowing what you’re going to expect and paying absolutely no money and, you know, going to see weird art. Like, I love that. There’s a project that Why Not is doing that I’m production managing right now called Mashup Pondy Road.

And it’s sort of like this. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Caribana, like the festival. Yeah.

So it’s very Caribana inspired. It’s going to be opening up in Little Jamaica. And one of the great things I love about working with Why Not is that we’re often partnering with other companies in town who, you know, may not have the full resources of an organization.

So my producer and I are going to be the like technical and producing support on the project and steward them financially as well. And part of the mandate of this project is to like not reach the audiences that would go to the Princess of Wales Theatre. And that’s like no shade on Princess of Wales Theatres or, you know, those audiences.

But like, how do we access people who don’t know anything about theatre or like have never been to the theatre or may have barriers to going to the theatre? Whether that’s cost or whether that’s location or not knowing how to. And so something that I’ve like never really experienced as a production manager is like being a part of those conversations of like what it means to go into space and not colonize it. Go into space and like actually have ambassadors who are like welcoming you in and buying into your work because they know it will animate their community in a way that maybe it hasn’t been animated before.

Yeah. Yeah, I guess I’m just like right now in my journey, like post pandemic, you know, understanding the nuance of like what production and technical can be outside of maybe purely execution of projects. It’s actually, you know, there’s a holistic project or process to the project that, you know, collaborates with other members of communities that we want to reach.

So, yeah, having lots of fun with that. Is that something you explored more over the pandemic? Yeah, I would say I got really into advocacy over the pandemic. Generally, generally within my branch of the industry, I think, you know, the murder of George Floyd sparked a lot of conversations around racial inequities and social justice and going back to leadership and being a woman of color in a leadership role.

Whether that is, you know, middle management or not, like I do have agency and I do have influence and I do have a lot of privilege, too. And so, like, how do I use my voice in, you know, a small way, but hopefully impactful in process to make a difference? And so, yeah, I started thinking a lot about, like, particularly in my experience with Indie, there’s just a lot of burnout. There’s a lot of, like, not great livable wages.

And, you know, you talk about mentorship and how Indie is a huge access point to, like, getting your first mentor or getting, you know, your first job out of school. So why is it that we’re burning people out so early in the game if we know that there’s a demand for it and we’re not, like, investing in the industry, you know? So I started asking a lot of these questions and production management is also a very, like, siloed, very lonely job. I never work with other production managers.

I’m just working alone, leading other people and hoping that I’m doing the right thing. So, yeah, I started thinking a lot about, like, advocating a lot for process over product. I think, you know, a lot of folks really just want to get to opening night, you know? Like, the show must go on.

We’ve got to get there. And then once we get there, once we survive this, you know, we’ll be happier. And I thought about how much that really was a bummer.

I don’t want to be here to survive the process. That sucks. Like, I want to be here because, like, y’all are my friends and you’re my team and, like, I trust you and I’m having a great time executing the show.

And then I’m happier during opening night because I know that I haven’t, like, burnt anyone out or, you know, got into any fights with anyone in the process. Like, everyone is happy and feeling supported and wants to do this again. And so that just became, I guess, a mission that I had over the pandemic about, like, what are the systemic issues that keep people from having a good time in the process? Is it, like, the lack of understanding of what we do? Is it the lack of time? Is it, again, going back to granting, like, is it not knowing enough information about how we want to budget shows or how we might want to pay people or what resources we need? So, yeah, I had a lot of questions.

That idea of surviving the process to get to opening night, I think, is probably one of the worst things that — one of the worst habits, I think, that sometimes we have. Because the process is what gets us there. We don’t just — like, the process is such an important part of getting to the opening, right, to creating a show.

And if we’re just concentrating on surviving it, just getting through it, then what are we really accomplishing in the process? Totally. Totally. And I think, you know, that’s a bit of a — maybe a hang-up from previous generations of doing this kind of work.

I know it was a big theme in theatre school for me. You know, I went to national theatre school, and I know since a lot of those conversations came up, they’ve started to change what the structure of, you know, having a bit of time to breathe and, like, make better health choices. I know that’s more of a conversation there.

But when I was there, you know, I think culturally there were eight of us in a class, and I know that we all wanted to prove ourselves. And we were also a batch of — I think there were six women identifying one non-binary person. And we all, like — we were all very competitive.

Like, it was this weird, like, wanting to prove yourself as a woman or, like, wanting to prove yourself as a person of colour, like wanting to, I don’t know, prove yourself as a queer person. Like, there was just all these, like, identities, like, trying to prove ourselves to this, like, this idea of, like, we are just as good as the generation before us who, like, pushed those boxes and, you know, were twice our size and stayed up all night. And, like, you know, that sort of, like, archetype, I guess.

A stereotype? I don’t know. But, yeah, there was certainly a culture of, like, if they needed to go eat a sandwich during their break, wow, they are not cut out for this. And that’s extremely unhealthy.

And so I started to see that. Like, I started to engage in that sort of culture when I was in Toronto as well. Like, I know I was, like, working way above what I was being paid to do.

You know, I started volunteering my time. I started volunteering my resources. I, like, wanted to be the best that I could be and prove myself in the industry.

And, like, also I didn’t know who I was competing with. So I was just blindly doing all this survivalist whatever to, like, make a name for myself. And I just don’t ever want anyone to feel that they have to do that again.

Is it any wonder that people burn out in indie when, you know, the crew is set, the technical side is setting that example. The actors are working for who knows how much, maybe nothing, maybe a box office split or something like that. And it’s just, like, we ask so much of people and don’t respect their time and their, you know, their pocketbook, really.

I mean, throughout the industry as a whole, we don’t pay people what they’re worth. And we ask a lot of people. And in indie, we’re really asking a lot.

So it’s no wonder that people burn out. For sure. And I know that, you know, there’s, like, two sides of that, right? Like, there’s the side that we just talked about earlier where there is passion there.

And it’s a great opportunity to, like, make connections and, like, sit in the shit with other people. You know, your experience has come out of those moments. I know the biggest mistakes I’ve made were in indie.

And I know that the biggest forgivenesses that I got were in indie. So I feel that and I value that. And I think that everyone understands what that value is.

The other side of that is exactly what you’re talking about. The burnout, the high demand, the not able, the, I guess, the inopportunity for, like, taking a risk on someone who’s new and providing them with structure and support so that they can not burn out. Yeah.

Like, I guess, like, part of that advocacy is really trying to define, like, what is it as an industry? What is it that we need as an industry collectively? Like, how can we standardize some things so that we all can knowledge share a little bit better so that we can all, you know, be more sustainable together, whether that’s culturally or, like, environmentally? Like, do we all really need to put in our resources to build the same wooden riser over and over again so that it will just go to the dump? Like, you know, there has to be better structures in place to kind of, like, make a, I don’t know, manifest some better, like, holistic values. I don’t know. Yeah, I think, I mean, definitely, that’s all stuff.

It requires coordination and communication. And I know a couple of times I’ve seen people try to start things like that. But, of course, because there’s no money and because it takes a lot of time, those things almost always fizzle.

So somehow there’s some kind of bridge in between to make those kinds of, like, links happen. Yeah. Yeah, 100 percent.

And, you know, I think part of, so I guess the thing that I’m sort of fighting for within production management and technical direction is working with other like-minded folks in the industry. We’ve, like, banded together as a collective. I feel like we’re so, like, intimidating when I say that.

But we’re just a bunch of PMs and TDs who have come together and, you know, have also recognized that this is a problem in the industry. So we’re starting to talk more and more about just breaking down someone’s job and, like, you know, getting more people in the room to advocate for certain things. Like recognizing blind spots.

I think it’s easy for the industry to say, like, oh, they’re underpaying that person. Like, this is a, don’t associate yourself with this company because they don’t pay people well. But it’s actually not, like, I doubt that it’s actually, like, intentional.

I’d like to think that it’s not intentional. Like, I’d like to think it’s just maybe a gap in knowledge because there is no standardization of, like, what my job is in Canada. Yeah.

Or at least I haven’t found one. You know, I cobbled a six-page document from, like, multiple contracts that I’ve received in the past to, like, try and start the conversation of, like, no, this is what’s included in a production budget. And this is what’s included in, like, my job title.

These are the things I’m not expected to do. And you shouldn’t ask me to do that. Or you should compensate me more if you want me to do those things.

Like, you know, just, like, allowing for more conversation around what these resources are so that we can properly give that wage or, like, allocate budget to it. Now, that group that you were talking about, is that What By When? No, it’s means of production. Okay.

What By When is, like, also sort of within the same canon, I guess. My business partner and I, Wes Babcock, he’s more of a technical director brain, and I’m more of a production management brain. And I think sometimes people convolute those two roles and assume that they’re the same.

So we kind of, like, within our own, I guess, within our own circles, we decided to say, like, no, if you’re going to hire me, you’re going to hire me. And then you’re also going to hire Wes. And, like, we’ll be a collective.

And we will promise that your process will be so much better if you invest in both of us. And so since then, I think we built a name for our, like, little partnership. We decided to create, like, a firm, I guess.

And now we’re advising a few companies in town. And we have seven associates under us who, like, under the sort of mentorship idea where we, like, supervise them, they watch us start the execution process, and then they follow through with it. So it just provides a little bit more structure for their learning.

And then, yeah, and then we kind of get to, you know, be a part of the project and not suffer from FOMO. Nice. Yeah.

I’d like to change the subject slightly. Yeah, sure. Probably more than slightly.

I know that you curl. You are a curler. Your sport of choice is curling.

Yes. How did you start curling? So I grew up in New Brunswick, and curling in New Brunswick is pretty big over there. For a second, I thought that was going to be the whole story.

So I grew up in New Brunswick, period. And that’s all we do there. Yeah, we just eat lobster and curl.

No. There’s more to it than that. No, I started, well, I needed a hobby.

You know, it couldn’t just be music. It couldn’t just be theatre. So my parents said, well, you can have your choice of two sports.

They cannot be contact sports. They can either be curling or they can be golf. And I enjoyed curling more.

Because it is more of a contact sport sometimes, depending on how intense you curl. Yeah. I remember when I was growing up, I think, I recall, and this will date me, but CBC during a certain time of year on Sundays would broadcast the Scots Tournament of Hearts.

Oh, my gosh. Yes. And my image, I mean, Olympic curling and watching people curl now, it is completely different from the images that I saw on TV back in those days when I was watching that.

You know, it was all like dads smoking their cigarettes and all this sort of stuff. Obviously, that is not necessarily what you saw in curling. What was that first time? Because I’ve curled since then, and it is actually, people think it’s an easy sport, but it is actually quite strenuous.

Is that something that surprised you? And how do you keep from one side of your body becoming stronger than the other? Oh, my gosh. What a great question. Oh, it’s like really refreshing to not talk about production management sometimes, I’ll say.

So thank you for asking this. In my experience as a curler, I was on the junior women’s team in Bathurst. And what that meant was we were in the running to qualify for the Canada Winter Games, which was very exciting.

So we had a team, you know, we had like a marketing sponsorship. We, you know, had the cool jackets. We were very cool in school with our like jock jackets, our jock curling jackets.

And we did end up qualifying for the first round, and then we lost, unfortunately, the second qualifier. So we didn’t end up going to the Canada Winter Games. But the training process and all of that was quite rigorous.

Typically, a curling season is, I would say, like maybe late October, November to March. So we were obviously on the ice that whole time. And in the off season, we were running track.

We were like training, we were on a specific diet. And then I guess like the strengthening, when you say like strengthening of one side of your body versus the other, do you mean like the kicking off? I mean, because a lot of it seems to be like you kick off, you’ve got like one arm that tends to hold the rock, that sort of thing. At least the couple of times that I’ve done it, that is.

Yeah, yeah, it’s true. There is a bit of an imbalance there. Yeah, I would say, you know, my right leg was probably a bit stronger than my other.

It wasn’t like noticeably like, oh, wow, she’s a curler. Like, look at her right leg. It wasn’t like that by any means.

But yeah, there was a lot of like, I guess, full body strengthening throughout the year to maybe help with that. My role particularly on the team, I was the third, which meant I was the mate. I guess you call me the mate or the third.

And my job was to like smash through all the rocks. Right. Really awesome.

So my kick was like much stronger than the two other women who went before me. So maybe I had a beefier right leg than everyone else on the team. Yeah.

Now that I think about that. That’s awesome. I always thought I always liked the idea of curling and both times that I’ve had the opportunity to do it, I really enjoyed it.

When I was a lot younger, I thought to myself, listen, if I ever decided that it was time to go to the Olympics, the only option I have at the age that I’m at is curling. Yeah, it’s it actually becomes, I think, more of a casual sport the older you get. Yes, yes.

You can bring your beer on the ice and like there’s this like weird drinking culture around curling, which is maybe not seen in like squash. I don’t know. Probably not.

Probably not. I know that the weaker than it’s never immortalized the drinking after a squash game in song. I don’t know.

I don’t I don’t squash. My right leg is too beefy for squash. Perfect.

I know you’re also you love you love to cook. Is that something? Because you know what? I only recently as as a as a human person decided that I was going to learn to cook. I did far too long in my life, like pulling down like like pre-made dinners and eating out and ordering in and all that sort of stuff.

And and my girlfriend actually inspired me to cook. Is cooking something that you’ve always done or is that something that’s that’s more recently become a passion for you? Yeah, I think like anyone, like as soon as you become a quote unquote adult, you have this like, oh, shit moment where you have to like take care of yourself. So I would say that naturally occurred in my 20s when I was in university.

And yeah, I, you know, I grew up in a household. My stepdad is is Mauritian and my my mother is from Hong Kong. And so we in Bathurst, New Brunswick, the only immigrant family there, I guess at the time we were eating some pretty like some different cuisines than than what my friends would see.

And it just became like a very, I would say, like connected me with my culture and with home. Yeah. So my my family also came to Canada because my grandfather started a Chinese restaurant in the East Coast.

So I have this love of of wanting to, I don’t know, pay tribute. Is that really silly to maybe make a connection to you? I feel like I feel like I want to pay tribute to my Cantonese culture through food. And, you know, I don’t speak the language as often and I’m not embedded in in the cultural practices of my what my grandmother practices.

So I think I think food, first of all, Chinese food is delicious, very easy to make, very improvisational. So I would if you’re having a hard time, like getting into it, I would really recommend, you know, doing a lot of stir fries and things like that. Hot pot.

It’s a great communal sort of meal to do with friends. Yeah, it always felt really comfortable to kind of get out of the busy work and kind of like meditate over making a fun improvisational bowl. I make the same thing sometimes called garbage bowl that my partner and I call it.

It’s just like whatever is in the fridge and we need to make into a stir fry. Garbage bowl has become a huge staple in our household. Is there is there a particular comfort food, something that you make when you’re like, I really feel like I this is it’s like a cold winter night or I’m tired or I just need that feeling of home? Is there a particular thing that you make or order in or go out to eat? Yeah, I think different categories of comfort food, right? Maybe different seasons of comfort food.

Lately, I mean, I’m in my 30s, but my partner and I have been into like the tick tock trends of food of what’s out there. So we’ve been playing a little bit around like some of those trends. I would say like the comfiest thing for me and something that I’ve actually integrated back into my work practice is a hot pot.

So I don’t know if you’re familiar with what a Chinese hot pot is. So it’s very communal. I think it’s very like, you know, it’s it’s accessible to folks who have different dietary restrictions because you can separate what is getting cooked.

And so, yeah, this is something that I’ll do. It’s also very easy. You just chop a bunch of like raw vegetables and throw it into a pot and drizzle some sauce on it and call it a night.

And I started doing this as like a means of getting everyone together before we hit tech week. So I would bring my like my portable hot pot machines. We’d go to my place or go somewhere with a large table that could seat everyone on the production team.

And we would just like share a meal when when it was possible to do that and say that. And it really just like kind of calmed everyone down. It got us out of, you know, the theatre a little bit.

It got us out of work. It got us out of the sense of urgency. And it just like let us have a moment together as a team before we hit the deck running.

So, yeah, I would say hot pot. That’s great. Two things that I missed that I’ve missed desperately over the pandemic.

One is going out for hot pot. Yeah. Second is dim sum, like going out for good good cart service dim sum.

Two things that I can’t wait to get back to once I feel safe in restaurants. Yes. Yeah, I think that time is coming.

I think I’m about to I’m about to go to dim sum this weekend. Oh, my God. OK, so where is your dim sum spot of choice? OK, there’s this really hilarious place up in Richmond Hill.

It’s right by my grandmother’s house. So, you know, I think maybe it’s just a favorite because it’s in close proximity. But it is in this giant like convention centre, like a banquet hall.

And there are these like huge Renaissance paintings. And like like everything is super Victorian and ornate. And then it’s just like dim sum.

Wow. That’s awesome. So in terms of a vibe, that’s my favorite dim sum place.

It’s called I believe it’s called Premiere. Premiere. Oh, one of these days I’ll have to try it out.

Yeah. Well, Crystal, thank you so much. It’s been a wonderful conversation.

Thank you, Phil. This has been great. I hope to see you either on the ice or around some dim sum carts.

Absolutely.