Daniel Levinson

Daniel Levinson has been performing, directing and teaching stage combat professionally since founding Rapier Wit in 1991. Rapier Wit is Canada’s oldest stage combat school and production company. Daniel is proud to be counted among Fight Directors Canada’s Fight Masters. He has had a long history with FDC. He was one of the founding advanced actor combatants at FDC’s inaugural workshop. Daniel has created fights for companies such as The Stratford Festival (5 seasons), Canadian Stage, Jesus Christ Superstar on Broadway, Volcano Theatre, Actors Repertory Company, Second City, A.C.T. Productions, Shakespeare In the Square, Factory Theatre, Shakespeare in the Rough, Theatre Aquarius, The Actor’s Repertory Company, Theatre Passe Muraille, The Tarragon Theatre and The Guild Festival Theatre. Daniel is proud of his years teaching at the University of Waterloo, Sheridan, and the University of Toronto Mississauga.

www.rapierwit.com
Twitter: @RapierWitCombat
Instagram: @Rapierwit

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Transcript

Welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host of this podcast. This is episode 319.

Stageworthy is a one-person operation. So not only do I do the interviews, I also arrange the guests, edit the show, promote it, and I also created the music. I also shoulder all of the financial responsibilities for keeping the show going.

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You can find Stageworthy on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at Stageworthy pod and you can find the website with the archive of all 319 episodes at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickaby. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com. My guest this week is Daniel Levinson. Daniel is the founder of Canada’s oldest stage combat school, Rapier Wit.

He’s also been performing, directing and teaching stage combat professionally since 1991 and is a fight master with Fight Directors Canada. He’s created fights for companies such as the Stratford Festival, Canadian Stage, Second City Factory Theatre and so many more. Here’s our conversation.

Have you guys been doing gun classes? Finally got things up and running again. And I’m pleased to say that. Yeah, that’s what happened.

Nice. Nice. That’s good.

So you guys, you guys are finally in doing classes in person. Have you had opportunities during the pandemic to sort of like, come back into the room and then had to shut down? Or has have you been like shut down and only recently got started going again? I had the tiniest of window in November, where I basically did a couple things. This is not including me being lucky enough to be on set, right? Or to do some zoom work, of course, but to actually be in person with people.

So we did a couple things in November, but almost immediately had to shut down because of course, the new greatest and tastiest of COVID hit again. So yeah, so I’m stuck with it. And, and, and both my, my wife and business partner, Kirsten, and I had a lot of discussions about this.

And since our, our mantra is about safety, it’d be pretty inappropriate for inappropriate for me to just sort of, I don’t care about people’s safety and open anyway, no matter how much I desperately missed people. Right, of course. Did you guys do classes? Like, did you do zoom classes? I know it’s hard to do stage combat over zoom.

So, so what did you guys do? So I should say this. I have peers who did zoom classes and more prior to them, I was, I was thrilled for them that they would do that. But I gotta be honest.

It’s not what I do. I feel my, my specialty about stage combat is really about partnering and sharing energy and the intimacy of being in a room together and the awareness of audience and all that kind of stuff. And so because of that, uh, I held back now I directed a show over zoom.

I helped, uh, um, other people through zoom as, as, uh, uh, as a director or, or as a facilitator, or, uh, even as a dramaturge, but the actual teaching of classes, I did a couple of things and, and, uh, it was more of demonstrations and it just didn’t feel stellar. It didn’t feel, uh, as honest that I wanted Daniel to be as it were. So I held back and otherwise I was on set for some film work, which was really neat.

And of course we, we went through, uh, um, all the careful, um, COVID, uh, COVID safety measures and, you know, masks and goggles and, you know, so there was no, no messing around, but really theatre. And of course the training of, of performers and, and the engagement on that level really had to disappear for two years. And it was heartbreaking.

That is, I mean, it’s bad enough that, that we haven’t been able to, to really be in, in theatres and things like that. Um, especially, but when your passion is teaching and teaching sort of requires that you’re in a room together, that’s a really hard thing to give up. Um, I hope that, that it, uh, that you were able to keep busy enough that you feel it quite so much.

I will say the time at, at, at, there were moments, let’s say the time felt heavy in my hands. I will not lie. And, uh, and the funny thing is that Kirsten and I had a ton to do at physically at the wit to, to, you know, upgrade and deal with things.

And we thought all we needed was time. We are liars, liars who lie because clearly it wasn’t time we needed because we didn’t do it. So, so that’s embarrassing as, as heck.

Um, you know, my God, I, I just, uh, I just, you, when you were saying about, um, not being able to be in the spaces, the other thing that I realized, uh, if we were having this conversation back in 2019, and you said that you asked me, what did I think the future would hold for what we do at, at rape your wit? I was really looking at people’s engagement in a different way in the work. And what I mean by that is we’ll always, I hope always get, uh, performers and artists who want to understand what it is to be a performer on a physical level and come to us for that. But I was also having people we’re talking lawyers and doctors and people who really wanted to have some fun, uh, on the floor in a safe way, but, but basically be able to invest themselves in this really, really neat partnering with weapons thing.

And I, and I felt that as much as people were enjoying interacting on the internet with the video games and, and group games, I really thought a major part of our future was going to be people coming together in person, learning new skills and being like a team and that sort of sharing, regardless of if they were using it for profession or not. And COVID through obviously a monkey wrench in that, but I’m hoping as things really start to open up, cause I feel like we’re, we’re, we’re it’s, um, it’s a fool’s errand right now to claim we’re out of COVID, you know, like we’re on the other side of it. I just, uh, I don’t believe it, you know, but, um, I’m hoping that will happen.

Not because I’m not super keen at working with professionals at the highest level, cause that’s such a gift, but it’s some, there’s something about working with people who are doing it for sheer pleasure, what they bring to the room. It’s remarkable. Now, were you surprised that there were groups that wanted to, to do stage combat as sort of team building? Or was that something that you thought that you, that you went out to, to sort of try to find people who wanted to do that? I certainly didn’t chase it because, uh, where, where we, and ironically, we just recently got called from someone asking if we do that.

And of course we did it, but, but in a way, when, when it’s structured that way and it’s an organization and a group of people who know each other from work, there’s sometimes some embarrassment, some ego, like we’ve had a lot of fun, but, but also it’s like, this is a chance to get together, eat and drink on the, on the, on the corporation’s dime kind of thing. And, and so they want to, let’s get through this thing so we can do the other thing, you know, the partying part, which often was the case, you know? And so, and I understood it, there was no hard feelings about it. No, I’m, I’m talking more along the lines of, of just individuals or, or, or, or small groups of friends joining in with the professionals, you know what I mean? And, and it’s neat.

Um, and of course we’ve had people who claim they’re not actors because they haven’t had classical, uh, actor training, but I’m here to tell you their understanding of narrative, creating character, sharing empathy with an audience is profound. And so it comes back to my, my thinking often when I’m talking to people about, it’s like singing, right? You’ll hear people say, I can’t sing. And it’s like, oh no, and the number of people I’ve actually met is practically zero who are truly tone deaf.

And, and that’s usually a mechanical issue, uh, within the ear versus, you know, uh, uh, you may not like how your voice sounds and to be fair, it’s not that we want to listen to everyone sing that sounds cruel, but you know what I mean? There’s a reason why we, we, uh, cherish specific people that we have albums of, right? But acting is such a human thing, especially when we’re talking at the foundational level, uh, of, of inventing yourself in a story or placing yourself in a story and, and finding yourself reaching out to another and, and sharing, uh, um, let’s call it social emotions. I mean, what is more human than that? And of course it was religion for the Greeks, right? We know that that theatre was everywhere for the longest time, uh, without it becoming sort of like, you can’t see my hands. I’m doing little air quotes, classic theatre that suddenly becomes like hard work theatre.

Right. Um, and of course, one of the things I think the COVID really showed was how much we need entertainment, you know, and, uh, and I don’t know about you. I have been watching a ton of streaming services and really, really amazing things.

I from the Philippines, from, you know, like stuff that, that, because we live in this remarkable time with Netflix and various other, uh, companies that can reach in, uh, into areas across the world and bring them to a worldwide audience. Amazing. Right.

And, and it has inspired me to, you know, obviously think more about what I want to do when, when creating art, you know, as you were talking about, about people who, who, who would come in and they’d say, I’m not real, I’m not an actor, but then they would turn out to, to have some chops. I think, I think back to the fact that, that as children, we pretend naturally. And as children, we immerse ourselves in our make believe worlds in, in, in, in our imagination when we are playing totally.

And then at some point, somebody says, well, that’s enough of that. You have to stop doing that. That’s not real.

And so we stop it entirely. Totally. I had an aunt who, uh, I don’t need to out, out, out her, but, um, I used to run around as a little kid.

And when my parents were away, uh, um, she, I would stay with my aunt and uncle and, um, I used to sing all the time. Like I always, like I had sort of, uh, I had engagement in that sort of joy of making noise. And, and she told me once, uh, and, and, and I remember it like it was yesterday.

It’s like, I don’t know why you sing. You have a terrible voice. And that pretty much successfully stopped me for singing for like, uh, let’s say 15 years.

You get like, I find myself in university and we have to sing. Cause I was, I was in a, an active program and they want us to of course, explore all sorts of things or at the time. Right.

And one of them was of course singing and, and, uh, there were some really good singers in my class when I was in university, like really, really good singers. Um, and, and I felt like I shouldn’t have even been there. And, uh, Kirsten, more importantly, this sounds more important.

It’s funny. Uh, Kirsten’s mother is a remarkably gifted pianist and loves hearing me sing and sing along with what she’s playing. And, and it’s just a funny thing, but, but I think, and this is a whole other conversation, but what you were talking about us just stopping, it’s unfortunate when someone decides you’re an inconvenience or they just don’t want to hear you at that moment and they shut down major parts of your life.

It’s, it’s, it’s a sad, it is a sad fact because you know, I can remember two instances and I remember them so clearly of things that shut down creativity. I remember I used to love painting when I was very young and I remember I would paint all the time. And then I remember one time I showed the painting to someone and I said, isn’t it amazing? I painted this lion.

Isn’t it amazing? And I said, it doesn’t really look like a lion. Thoughtless. Yeah.

Just thoughtless. And I stopped painting. Yeah.

And I mean, and, and let’s be fair, the person might’ve intentionally meant to be cruel, but more likely than not you caught him at a bad moment or a thoughtless moment. Right. And it’s, it’s certainly made me want to be sensitive without being, um, disengaging from my, my responsibility as a teacher and a mentor, but it’s made me sensitive to be mindful of how I say things and I’m always working on it.

Right. Cause you also want to be authentic. You don’t want to sound like, um, your, your, that’s what I meant like by removing your, your obligations, like everything’s great, you know, without, you know, without, um, being honest about it.

And people know, I think when you’re, you’re simply not being authentic, but, and it’s funny, I was talking to a person in a different field who, um, has to work with people with, with emotional challenges and that idea of being able to tell someone that they need to redirect their focus or, or rethink or, or, or return to their work because it’s not yet complete or they haven’t reached the successful outcome they were hoping for. And you want to do it in a way that acknowledges the work they’ve already done, especially when they’ve already done quite a bit of work, but at the same, and, and encourage them, but at the same time give really specific and useful feedback that will allow them to then grow. Right.

And, and, uh, hearing people say, oh, that was nice. I first sounded nice, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t really explain, uh, what was good and what needs to be looked at. Right.

And, and so we’re thinking about what is, what is that? And of course, we’re also living in a time right now, I think where, um, we’re expressing and looking at language differently and there is a, uh, a real interest in trying to step away from, let’s say the battle days in all, in all, in all, in all schemes. And at the same time, I, I would be a liar if I said there wasn’t a tremendous amount that I want to maintain that was useful from past, uh, artistic thought or, or our, our, um, our previous endeavors. Right.

And so I’m a little afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water as it were, you know, uh, yeah. I remember I was working at, I think, I think people often tell truth about something, especially with theatres concerned without really realizing it. Some of the, the, um, I worked at one of the really large theatres in the city a number of years ago and, uh, there were a number of, there were, I worked a few as an usher, a few, a few shows.

And I would, I was, one of my shifts was at the door. So I would like be sitting by the door or standing by the doors, people were leaving. And I got to overhear, overhear the things that people say when they didn’t really like the show, but probably weren’t talking to someone in the show or involved with it.

No, but they also, they paid enough money that they feel like they should feel something about the show. Like they should, they paid a lot of money for this show. They shouldn’t hate the show, but they didn’t really like it.

And they would say bland things like everybody did such a great job, which, which means nothing, but it’s true. After a while, you start to realize this is, this is people, you start to see the motivation behind it and you realize, Ooh, that is actually really harsh criticism. Yeah.

Well, they’re not saying they enjoyed this show. They’re just commenting on how, what a great job people were doing. And I think what you said is also justifying, like, I just, it’s not just treasure you spent, but time.

Right. And talk about your truly finite resource. Uh, you know what I mean? It’s interesting you say that because I’m also thinking of the other side of that coin where, uh, I love being an audience, right.

In all sorts of, uh, in all sorts of ways, like all sorts of mediums. Like I look, I love reading. And, and as I said, when we couldn’t go out, Kirsten and I were watching a lot of really interesting programming and also we’re talking, it doesn’t all have to be fiction, right? There’s some cool, um, uh, uh, uh, like cooking shows, like there’s just, and watching the art of how the really good, uh, produce things look right.

Like chef’s table is, is, is an education on how to capture beauty and, and, and explore through sound and, and music, uh, all the sensory concept of, of what’s, uh, something you’re supposed to be tasting. Right. But I’m also fascinated when I’m talking about the other side of the coin is we can’t have any nice things.

Right. And what I mean by that is, is it there’s, there’s people who claim to be fans who clearly hate everything. Oh yes.

And that, that, that, that horrible struggle that I want something new, but it must be exactly what it was before. Yes, but not too much exactly like it was before because I will Oh my God. Yeah.

And, and, and I will fully admit I’m totally a fan too. And there is, and I, and again, we will, unless you’re desperate, we want to talk about it, but there’s some stuff that came out that is tremendously nostalgic because it, because it, because it’s sequels to things that had a major impact when they first came out because they were the first, uh, of things and, or, or not just the first of a series, but like often there were stuff that changed how we looked at comedy or filmmaker, whatever it was. Right.

And it’s really hard to capture lightning in the bottle again. And, and you’re watching something you afterwards, and it’s funny, exactly what you just said. So, so Chris and I were sitting there and there’s this sort of, well, it wasn’t what I really wanted.

Yeah. You know, it’s like, you know, the ice cream truck is ringing. You run out into the street and you’re super excited and they have vanilla, you know, vanilla could be really great, but this is sort of the low grade vanilla.

And you’re like, it’s still ice cream. And I still liked it, but I kind of was hoping for sprinkles, you know? Right. And I’ve, and I’m a bit embarrassed by it.

Right. Um, I used to never leave off watching a show or a movie. I had optimism right to the end, even if I wasn’t liking it, that it would have something better.

Like, like, you know what I mean? Like it was worth it, but COVID also sort of changed me in that, like, I could, I could leave things and it didn’t feel like a betrayal or something. And that’s kind of funny. What’s interesting, because now if you’re watching, there’s so many things that you could watch.

Oh my God. Yeah. That do you, is it worth sticking with this thing? This is clearly terrible.

Yes. And the chances of this being redeemed at the end for all of this terrible is very slim. So is it better just to turn it off and go onto something else? Or do I stick with it? And, and so you’re, you’re, you’re with your, you’re talking with your friends and, and, and no doubt there’s things that you all like together and you’ve watched, but I’m constantly making suggestions to other people and vice versa.

It’s physically impossible, especially with so many different streaming systems. So I’m going to pull out my Walker and talk about the old days when I was a young man. Um, the, like they’re people like they had three channels, right? Like I, I remember you, you knew what you were going to watch, but you rushed home to get it.

Like there was no, there’s no way to record it. And if you missed it, you weren’t going to see it. Right.

And so there was a social experience about getting to school the next day to talk about, yeah, about it. Right. And, uh, I can remember planning out, we could, we would plan out our weeks with a TV guide, right? I’d be like, okay, so we’re going to watch this.

We’re going to watch this, but we would have to negotiate it. But we’re going to watch if somebody is a hockey fan, it’s a hockey game on at the same time as the thing. But if you missed it, you missed it.

And, and there were, I distinctly remember when the first VCR came into my childhood home and we’re talking, it was like, like the top one, like it came up like, like, like a missile launcher. Like it was, it was hard. It was, it was a machine, right? Versus digital, you know? And, and she needed a slide rule for those who aren’t old enough to know what a slide rule is.

Look that up. There was a slide rule kind of thing. I like, how did you, how do you manage to, to record and you could mess it up and you could totally record something else by accident.

And this is really funny. The, the, that, that, oh my God, this is totally going to get us to talk about something else. But that idea now, uh, would you say, I’m going to put you because you’re reviewing, I’m going to ask you, would you say you have lost your endurance for patients because you can, to all intents and purposes, get whatever you want, whenever you want it out practically.

Oh, that is a tough question. Because the idea of having to wait now, there are some TV shows now that have returned to dropping them weekly versus they all come out, you know, so you can’t all stream them at once. Uh, or the idea that films were coming up both in cinema and on demand.

Right. And so obviously we’ll always have moments where you need to wait for things, but there was that thing that I was saying that we had to, as you said, you planned out, it was like a military, uh, uh, uh, plan, right? Do this business. And then, and that joke about, you know, someone’s watching the TV as you’re racing to the bathroom or to the kitchen to grab a snack.

It’s like dive across the room. Yes. Yes.

I can remember. I remember, you know, there’s a couple of things that I like, I can remember. Um, the, I remember which season it was of Star Trek, the next generation with the, with Picard becoming one of the Borg and then having to wait.

Oh yes. Until the fall to see how that, that resolves. Like this show ends, it’s like 20 something episodes.

It ends in like the, the end of winter, early spring. And then you have to wait through the summer totally to find out what happens. And there was a series called V which was for visit.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Do you remember that? Okay.

And, and they had a huge ensemble cast and they would just be killing people. Like someone went out for a coffee and got struck by a cat, nothing to do with the science fiction or the monsters of the, of the show. Right.

It was like, oh my God. And, and, all of a sudden it’s like, well, that one’s dead. And there were these shows like that, that, that really kind of threw you for a loop, you know? And, um, uh, yeah, I can’t explain why that doesn’t happen as much now.

I think people maybe would lose their minds. Like I said, the fanboys like sending angry letters. I think, I think that, that streaming has, because I think the value in streaming early on, like when Netflix was making its own shows was we’re dropping this whole thing and now you can binge it and you could sit down and you can watch this whole series in a weekend, whether it was orange is the new black or stranger things or whatever it was, you would watch the whole thing.

And then that Monday you’d come back and you would like, everybody would talk about it. Totally. Now, like I think, like you mentioned, there are shows that are dropping episodes or maybe they’ll drop a few episodes and then make and then drop a few episodes and make you wait a week.

And in some ways that kind of, if you do it right, you, you can build that tension in the way that we used to have, but you have to properly build that tension or it’s just frustrating and people will be like, well, I’m just going to wait until they’re all out. And, and I’m just going to propose this to any of the listening audience seeking a doctoral thesis. I think there should be a study as to what we’re talking about.

Like, do our, our, our, our, our patients dropping, uh, uh, or, you know, is there, is there more commitment or a more beloved, uh, uh, sense towards the product and the experience when you had to wait for it versus when you can do it all? Because that’s the other thing I’ve noticed. Like you’ll, you’ll see things that you were looking forward to. I should say you, me, I was looking forward to seeing, and I watch it and it didn’t, it didn’t stick with me as long where there would be a time where I have a perfect example.

A long time ago, I watched a French film and I mean, years and years ago called city of lost children. And I could not stop thinking about it for weeks. It was just so just the images and, and, and the storytelling, it was just amazing.

Uh, and, and, and that happens less now, but I will say this as a pro as just sort of, uh, if you have not yet seen turning red, a lot of love for Toronto in that I say people should watch it. It’s great. I haven’t, it’s on my list and I’m 100% going to watch it.

Yeah. I wanted to ask you about, uh, stage combat and how you first started, uh, how, what was your first exposure to it? And when did you decide that you were both going to, whether you were going to learn to be a fight director and start teaching it? What, how did that, how did that all come together? Well, I, I guess my first real, uh, experience was at university. So there had been minor little things I would have done because I was, I was acting, uh, as a kid, uh, growing up in Ottawa and it was, you know, all amateur stuff or school stuff.

Right. I, I wasn’t, I wasn’t, you know, a found child actor, uh, with a huge career behind me or anything like that, but I really liked it. And, and in a very real way, I, I, I just followed my muse and went to York university and became, I came out of the, I graduated with BFA honors and, and I came out as an actor.

And while there we took stage combat and I graduated in 91 and it wasn’t a great time to come out of school, meaning that, um, there was work, but it was, it was, it just didn’t, the world didn’t seem flush. Right. And I realized I did not want to wait for the phone to ring.

So I started, but we’re talking card table start of rape your wit. And I thought I was going to do some comedy, hence the rape your wit. And I would do a little fighting and I was doing writing because, because I was, uh, I’m writing now as well, but it was writing at the time.

And in a very real way, it was a calling in that it found me, I would be attached to projects like, like, like really small shows for the fringe or, or, you know, we’re doing, you know, back room theatre, you know, stuff, small stuff and, uh, lots of Shakespeare because it’s free, you know, and, and therefore there were a lot of fights. And, and despite the fact that I came out of school with other people, all trained the same way, uh, I think people really liked how I treated them when creating fights. They liked the stories I created and the creativity I brought to, to character meeting violence, meeting the story and progressing story.

And I found myself doing more and more of it. And then in 93, uh, the person who taught me at York was Bob seal and JP Fournier who was at West, uh, decided they were going to start fight directors Canada. And I was asked with a small handful of people to be the first class at the time, what was advanced things have changed and grown a lot since then because we really were inventing it on the fly, meaning all of us, like, and, and all of us who participated in the creation of this thing called fight records Canada.

But, uh, it helped me a lot because I was at that point, uh, working on what I had learned was very much self-taught. I had a fantastic, uh, uh, friend, Simon Fon, who, uh, presently is, is now in BC and he’s, he’s, he’s a fight master. And he’s amazing.

And so I worked with him and another, uh, another excellent friend, Mark Husement. So I had really excellent people who were peer teaching with me to allow me to grow, but it, it’s like all things like going to university as an example is an opportunity to do a ton of stuff all at once. That’s what FTC did for me, where I got to meet a lot of people and not so much, uh, often learning is not so much about picking up other people’s work, which is true as well, but more importantly, seeing what is you and what isn’t you.

Does that make sense? Right. And, and so there was a ton of stuff that I took and went, this is really neat and other people do it well. And I’m proud of them, but it’s not me, right.

Other things like, wow, you know, I really see, I think clearly what this is and how we should approach it and other people having challenges with it. I think, I think we’ll do that. So an example is I really like what we call found weapon or environmental weapon, where you’re using mundane objects in scenes where frequently normal people lose their mind to go violent, right.

As opposed to classic fight scenes, Hal and Hotspur, let’s say, or, uh, or, you know, in Romeo that the various fights are clearly fight set pieces that are important for the story. Um, and also it married to my, my pleasure at, at creating, uh, writing and creating the entire scene about it. Cause, cause in a very real way, I also was directing, right.

Not just by directing, but directing. So as this progressed, I really bit the bullet in, um, uh, I want to say 96. Basically I moved into what could laughably call a studio, which meant like it was, it was really small, but I had a space now because otherwise I was going into, you know, church basements and back, back, back rooms and schools and, and, and going wherever people would hire me.

But this would allow me to start planning and, and then my next studio was double the size and that allowed a lot more growth. And, and, and in that place, I really was teaching, uh, in a way that I started feeling good about and thinking I was helping people where the first point I was like, figure out what it was. I, what was my voice right as a teacher.

And, and, and then, um, and then the best thing in the world to ever happen was, uh, running into, uh, a friend of mine from school named Kirsten, who I knew from university, who had gone to Japan for five years, came back and completely surprised the two of us started dating. And now we’re married. Boom.

And she really helped me progress to the studio we’re now. Uh, we moved into just a much better space and she brought a professionalism to the office that I simply was unable to do because I had so many balls in the air. And quite frankly, she was so good, uh, at, at, at finding that quality.

And so I really have to give credit where credit is due. And it also, by this point I had taught so many people that I now had co-teachers I could hire. And the day of being the sole person in the room was gone and it was fantastic.

And, and, and the whole world kept growing, which was really neat. And that’s how I found myself here. So, uh, at risk of like saying the thing that, you know, it’s everyone always says I am standing on the shoulder of giants and, and, and it’s my peers who make me great.

And, and I have a community and, and I will say this going back to what we were talking about with COVID the single most painful thing wasn’t the loss of income. Wasn’t, uh, that horrible artist question that we all have, like, is this my last thing I’ll ever work on? Like, like, uh, am I no longer, um, wanted, you know what I mean? No, my, my, the single most painful thing was the nourishment you get from watching your, your, your, your, your, your peer artists create amazing things that you could never have imagined. And you being able to participate in that was like losing a limb, which sounds extreme, but I, I realized how much of my social life was part of my business life and, and not being near these really creative, intelligent, engaging people was really hard.

And the, and the irony I would say is if, if you asked, I think I’m, I’m more of an introvert. I have this, I’m a very successful introvert. I play an extrovert, you know, but, um, it was on one hand, COVID has, has allowed me, unfortunately, to really lean into all my bad habits, staying in, you know, not doing the things I should be doing kind of thing.

Um, but I also realized that despite the fact when I’m teaching or fight directing, I’m using performance energy and therefore am exhausted at the end of whatever that is. I really missed it. And, and, uh, seeing people again, it’s more than one person when we finally saw each other, uh, in the studio, in the space, a crushing hug because they were and, and tears like, like the sound.

So over the top, I know it’s, it’s like, you did not survive the sinking of the Titanic. Right. But we lost something and I’m hoping we have found it again.

Um, and, and it has been a terrible two years for a lot of people. I’m not going to claim on myself, but yeah, I just like, I’m lucky because, um, I have family and I have, uh, Kirsten and I have a cat who is, if you hear snoring, it’s just beside me right now. Alice, who is, is, is like the perfect life, uh, study on, on how to deal with all sorts of things that I share as a teacher and, and, and, and, and a director because she’s like, uh, just always doing something interesting.

But the idea that two years could just go, it’s horrifying. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I physically remember, you know, for, for most of the pandemic, um, you know, the only person that I hugged or was really in physical contact with was, was my girlfriend. And I remember distinctly the first person that I hugged that was not my girlfriend, old friend, I saw them, we were all vaccinated finally and able to be in the same space safely.

And I, and the, and being able to hug this person was like, there were tears because I think, and I think a lot of us experienced that. I don’t think it’s over the top to say so. No, no.

And, and then as we were easing into classes, no surprise. I was focusing like what we do is so in contact. So physical, I tried doing some sword and spear work and staff work, which gives some distance, but it just wasn’t, people weren’t on, they weren’t ready for it.

What I did find people wanting to do and sign up for was I do firearm training, both getting comfortable holding a gun when firing a blank, because for a lot of people, that’s really intimidating and off putting it uncomfortable. And whether you use blanks or not in a project, knowing what it felt like is useful, like to, you know, what a gun going bang is versus a CG or, or you, you simply mining the movement. But on top of it, we, we have other classes where like, what do you, what are you supposed to look like when you are playing a character that is proficient, if not excellent at moving a firearm and, um, playing video games as an example of seeing these shapes that we’re starting to really recognize what is someone supposed to look like versus, uh, your instinctual thing that often sadly is wrong.

Right. So, and leaving guns were side, but like you’ll watch people, let’s say, uh, who’ve never worked with tools before and watching someone swing a hammer, you realize, wow, that’s actually, it’s both, uh, instinctive. Most people can kind of get most of the shape, right.

But watching someone do it well and realize there’s actually an art to it, like everything we do. And that goes back to what we were saying before, I guess, about singing where, um, and acting, I think the vast majority is can do it, but the people we wish to watch obviously have that extra special something. And that includes the ability to create the look that we need to be able to suspend our disbelief and really participate as audience.

Cause cause it’s funny. You were talking about things that were terrible to watch an example. I can’t remember what it was, but I’m watching something going, that person is not a lawyer or that person is not a doctor.

You know what I’m talking about? Right? Like you just, I don’t believe for a second someone would put a scalpel in that person’s hand. And then it’s much worse when you’re talking about that is not someone who can sort of fight and they cut between the actor who has the right look. And it’s obviously the star and the stunt person who’s like super physically proficient.

And you’re just like, wow, they’re not even, they’re not even the same height, you know? So yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I think about that, you know, that, that, that the big duel in, in the princess bride, for example, where the two actors worked for the entire shoot. Yes. To look like they were proficient, like, like really good sword fighters.

And it’s why everyone loves that scene regardless if it’s the most complicated or, or, or whatever this means, whatever the best fight scene is actually, you know what I mean? But it’s just a perfect example of a scene that really speaks to us. Right. But you, do you know the, the mystery science 3000 series of movies things? Yes.

Like where the people watch and they, and they, and they basically make fun of the movie. Right. Well, yeah, I hate to admit it, but despite the fact that I say I love being an audience and just being an audience, yeah, that happens too.

When I get together with some friends and we’re just tearing into something that’s terrible. But to be fair we also learn a lot from terrible. And I think, you know what the sin is? This is actually, I’m dying to hear your opinion on this.

Things can be fantastic or they can be terrible and still be worth watching. It’s the mediocre in the middle that makes me angry that I don’t want to watch. Yes.

Because the terrible is like, it’s like jaw droppingly. I don’t know what’s going to happen next. Yes.

Yes. There, the thing is like with both for me, the, like if something is, is, is that terrible? Like, yes, you watch it, you’re on the edge of your seat. Like how bad is this going to be going to be like, I don’t know, like if it was a stage version of, of, of the room or whatever, or, you know, something like that.

But like, like if you were when something is mediocre or it’s just not working. Yeah. That’s when like my instinct is, is just to get so angry.

Like, especially when there’s clearly a lot of money behind it. I’m often like, why is this having this much money behind it? And, and it’s not working. And then I have to, I have to sit back and, and, and say, okay, so if you’re going to sit through this, which obviously you are, you, your job now is to identify why is this not working? Yeah.

Yeah. What’s missing? Why is it not working? Make it constructive. And it’s interesting to, uh, and this is going to happen to everybody who’s listening to this, regardless of their age, but you’re going to reach a point where, um, you are, it’s not so much that you’re old enough, but you’re experienced enough, uh, as an audience member to start recognizing well-used tropes.

Right. And, and it’s like watching that famous, like the monster movie thing where, okay, so the person’s going to the person, they open the bathroom mirror and when they close, there’s the monster behind them. Like, and, and that’s why it’s such a gift when you are in fact, uh, knocked off, knocked off center by something that’s excellent or terrible.

Right. And, and, um, and it’s such a gift because what we’re talking about, I always say that the thing, our goal is so simple as artists is to create an emotional feeling in the audience. And it could be as simple as getting a laugh.

Right. Uh, and that is a gift when, when people aren’t engaged, then that’s that feeling you were exactly talking about where you’re just like, you know? Yeah. I want to, I want to throw, throw one of my, one of my, uh, least favorite tropes that happens in so many movies at you.

Um, it’s when the best friend is introduced best friend of the hero or whatever. And as soon as you see that friend, you’re like, well, obviously that guy’s the bad guy. Totally.

Yes. And then when it happens, they treat it like it’s, it’s like a revelation who could have seen this coming. And the entire audience is like, well, I did because you made it obvious and to make it even worse, even if they’d done everything they could to smokescreen it.

Right. They really pulled every cinematic and writing trick. You’re like, that is a well established character actor and they haven’t given that character act too much to do.

Yeah. That’s the bad guy. Yeah, exactly.

So, so I actually really liked the first wonder woman movie, right. Uh, and spoilers, if anyone hasn’t seen it, let’s just say the big bad guy. I’m like, I know that has to be the bad guy.

Cause he’s such a good actor and he hasn’t done anything yet in this movie. Right. And I knew immediately who the bad guy was going to be.

Cause it had to be right. And you’re just like, Oh yeah. Do you know what I mean? It’s it’s cause I do.

Yeah. I do. It’s the reveal.

Right. Um, yeah. And I can’t, Oh, I can’t remember what, there’s an interesting movie.

So the calendar man, calendar boy, it was from some time ago and they finally capture the serial killer and it’s no one you’ve seen in the movie earlier. And the lead actor, literally the character looks and goes, I don’t know who this is. Like they figured out pattern and they, you know what I mean? They, they, they trap the person, but it wasn’t like, um, what we’re used to watching, like the various procedurals where you either there’s two ways to do it, right? Either the audience is in on the beginning.

That was the old style of Quincy and those shows where you watch the murder happen. And you’re, you’re wondering how Columbo was going to figure it out. Then there’s the law and order thing where, you know, only what is released by the, the discovery, the police and the district attorney.

Right. Right. And so therefore you have a very different moral feeling about solving this crime, right? That you, because when you’re watching the Quincy one, you know, the person’s guilty and you need closure to see them where the other one, uh, the, the law and order stuff, especially the old ones was incredibly in a good way, dissatisfying watching what you felt with, Oh, that person was guilty, but they got away with it.

But there was no proof. You never saw them do the crime. And, and I think this is really valuable when I’m approaching what we’re trying to create with state, I know we’re not even talking about stage combat.

I’m a terrible, terrible person to interview clearly. But, um, but I want in a good way to have the audience not confused or, or, or to drive the way or no, but you want them challenged. So they feel like they’re participants and it makes them really interesting on our side challenges.

So for instance, um, we, I think as creators of violence, the illusion of violence have almost carte blanche to do whatever we wish provided we do it in a way with the audience’s acceptance. Does that make sense? So there are really horrible things that, that can happen. And if the audience have bought in, they’re with you.

So for instance, again, using classic Shakespeare, um, the murder of lady, uh, McDuff and her children is epically horrible. And it’s clearly there for a reason. And you can portray it either realistically or not show anything.

But if you do it realistically, whatever that means, um, the audience is there because they want to have the outcome where the murderers or, or make Matthew said the murderers are punished, let’s say. Um, and, and there’s something really amazing using, actually, I got another one, the, the movie alien, when it comes out of the stomach that at the time when that movie came out, people practically fainted like, and now, and now it’s like, Oh yeah. You know, cause we, like we’re, we’re pushing the envelope as creators all the time, but that monster gets destroyed.

Yes. Yes. You know what I mean? Like there’s, there’s a, there’s an outcome to that that is earned by your, your like, I want to see this thing punished where there’s other monster movies where the monster kind of wins and walks away and it’s, and it’s the sequel machine, right? They want to make all these sequels.

You know? And so when I’m creating a scene of violence, I want in a good way for the audience to either be rooting for the hero or to be so disgusted with how the villain has gotten away with it because there’s usually more to it, right? Like the play continues into the event of whatever the outcome is going to be. And it’s also okay to leave at the end, a sense of complication, sorry, that the idea is complicated. So, so that the place, like, I don’t know who was right and who was wrong.

The pendulum has been swinging and I like, this is all excellent stuff, but the audience has to buy into it. If the audience is left, as I said, confused, you’ve lost them. But if you, if you do something and they’re like, that was just gross and, and, and gratuitous again, you’ll lose them.

Right. But it’s so interesting that if you have them along the way in a good way, that’s what I mean, where you can do almost anything. Right.

And this, do you follow what I’m saying? I do. I do. Because I think one of the things that, that the benefits of stage combat on the stage, in the theatre, as opposed to on screen is because it is happening in front of an audience, because the violence is happening and they’re in the room, they’re like physically in the room.

There’s, it’s not on screen. This isn’t something that is, that we know has been recorded. We’re not separated from it, that they are more there.

Yeah. Completely there. I remember years ago I did, I did a production of, of Macbeth and I was, I was one of the murderers.

And Lady Macduff had a baby and we had, we were going to obviously, she knew that she was, we had played it like she knew she was going to die. She knew her son was going to die, but I took her baby from her and, and held the baby as though, you know, don’t worry, your baby’s going to be safe. And I looked her in the eye and then I gave it a twist.

And we had like in the, in the, the, the, the, the swaddling were like two pieces of balsa wood and the audience in a way that an audience wouldn’t react on film, they just shudder and make an audible noise in a way that, that, that people don’t when it’s filmed violence. And it’s, and it’s interesting that, right? Because, uh, on one hand, uh, film can put, you could put the audience’s eye within millimeters of the event where theatre, you really have to fight. If you think about it to keep the attention where it’s needed, right? Because you can look anywhere in theatre, right? Like they’re inevitably, especially when you have a crowd scene, you can look like, boy, I’ll tell you that servants, super interesting.

Look at that servant, you know? So you have to do it really right. You know? Um, I would say one of the challenges, and I’ve talked about this with my friend, Todd Campbell, who’s another fight master who works with me and is in Toronto. Uh, listen to me name drop, but, um, uh, the challenge is our perception as audience at what the speed of violence is in because of film, we have been trained.

The fights are very, very fast indeed. And there are human beings. I’ve worked with them.

I’ve seen them where the fights live can be very, very fast. However, not everyone can do it. They may do an excellent job.

They just, they’re not moving at, at, at, at, um, because there’s lots of tricks in film to make things faster. Editing a base, taking out every fifth frame when they actually filmed on film, uh, cranking the camera speed, there’s all sorts of great tricks for making where you are literally dealing with the sweat and the breath in the space when it’s live, which I’m with you on that. And I find that super exciting.

And if you ever watch a fight live and then watch a recording of that. So for instance, on, on my YouTube video, uh, uh, channel, I, I have locked camera single shot fights because the idea is to give people an idea of the entire shape. So, so that future participants can see what’s proper stance and moving.

So the fights inevitably look a bit slow, but they were much faster when you were in person, right? Something about the, the arms length that a recorded medium does. That’s, as I said, a single lock thing really, uh, does us a disservice of what we think speed is and that, and it’s a challenge. And so sometimes let’s Daniel, what fights don’t you like? So in a superficial kind of way, I, I don’t like movement that’s disengaged from either intent or desire.

Right. And I don’t like things that are fast for fast sake that don’t because it, because the thing is we still are human beings and the performers who are just going as fast as they can be, unless they are remarkable and they are. And I, like I said, there are some remarkable performers who can do everything you want that fast, but most people are human beings who are like, I don’t want to hurt someone.

And so all of a sudden the fight becomes a fight sort of in between the people and not with each other. And, and it, and it’s, it stops being, and again, whatever this means real, you know, and, and real is very, very flexible. Like you can have something clowny and you can have something, uh, kitchen sink with real.

Right. But what I mean is it, it, it lacks an authenticity that the character means what they’re doing, that their intent is there and that there’s a danger to the character. Oh.

And that’s the other thing when I was talking about the audience buying in, if for a second, the audience thinks in a live performance, the performer is going to get hurt or was hurt. You have lost them. That’s the thing.

That is the fascinating thing is they were, they can, they will suspend their disbelief up until the point somebody actually gets hurt. Yeah. And rightly so.

Right. Yes. Um, yes.

The it’s interesting. And, and, and I talk about this when, when, when teaching and directing all the time is that audiences are not stupid, right? They might not have the training or awareness of what we’re doing. So we sometimes have to, this sounds really condescending.

I don’t mean it to, but like you’re educating them to understanding the world you’re creating or, or what this fight means, because you might be using a science fiction weapons or things that like they have no knowledge of. Right. But they absolutely know what’s believable, what isn’t and what’s connected to what isn’t right.

And I’m, uh, there was a period of time it’s happening less now. Well, actually maybe it’s a COVID thing, but there was a period of time where I would get what can only be described as extremely, uh, upset phone calls of please come in and fix our fights were opening in a week. And we didn’t think we needed a fight director or something like that.

Right. And, and, and, and it was like, are you, you’re, you’re kidding me, right? You’re literally doing again, Romeo and Juliet. You didn’t think you needed a fight director.

And I show up and, and it’s like, you’re slapping each other or slap each other’s plates and you’re running around the room. And I’m like, why did you just kill them there? Their back was to you. Like, what are you doing? Right.

And I’m of course, I don’t actually say it like that. Cause I want them to succeed. And I want to them to listen to me.

And if you make people feel small and stupid, they’re not really can do, you know, there’s no, they’re not conducive to your suggestions, right. But my inner, my inner voice, right. That is an absolute fucking snob when it comes to what I do in my craft, um, is, is appalled.

Right. And yeah. And though, you know what? I absolutely have to say this for people who are interested in being fight directors or fight teachers is something one must always remember is what, you know, took you time to get and develop and create and, and the people you’re meeting, especially who are novices don’t know what, you know, and, and I have certainly seen teachers or directors belittle or abuse the people they’re working with because they don’t have this inner knowledge that this other person has and, and makes them feel done.

And it never works, right. You know, ever. And, and it’s, it’s upsetting.

The other thing, you know, how, uh, people talk about fake it till you make it right. And, and we all bought into it. We all bought into it at the top of our careers.

I’m sure people still do. But as I get older, the more I realize that that can be very detrimental because what you might be faking are just bad habits. Yeah.

Or, or what you think is the performance, uh, quality technique, whatever you think you’re. And all you’re doing is a pale, pale reflection or photocopy that photocopy, um, exercise. I don’t know if you’ve ever done it where you take an image and you photocopy and photocopy and photocopy.

And the up away from the original, right. And, and it happens a lot, right. Where I’m asked to give my feedback on something I haven’t worked on or, or, you know what I mean? Because there’s people who want me to, uh, make suggestions to how they move forward in their career, stuff like that.

And, and I, as I said, I want to be, uh, honest, but also productive and kind, perhaps is a good word to use. But you know, when you’re looking at something and you’re thinking, I, I don’t think you understand what you’re doing and other people are training with you or you’re directing them and you’re, you’re not helping them because you’re leading them astray. And this might be coming from a good place.

You think you’re right. You think you’re, and by the way, this sounds incredibly arrogant. I have no doubt.

There’s a bunch of people who know me when their eyes are rolling, listen to Daniel Evans and hoity-toity knows everything. But, um, but there are some things I, I, I somewhat learned and understood and perhaps have a better understanding than others maybe. Right.

But there’s something very sad, I think, uh, of missed opportunity. Does that make sense? You know, and I talked about really the resource that’s finite as time and it’s, it breaks my heart, especially now with COVID people using time poorly and ending with a result, be it training or, or, or production of, of, of, of, of art or, you know, whatever it is. And you have this, this thing that’s okay, but it could have been great.

Uh, but you needed to invest more into it, either your time or you, you, and you needed to be humble and allowed other people to help you and listen to them. Two things, two things that I think people always think they don’t need to put a lot of time into until it’s too late. One is stage combat and the other is marketing their show.

These are the two things that people tend not to think about until it’s far too late. And to be totally fair, the marketing thing is almost none of us are marketers. It’s just like, it’s like, like I, I entered this profession because I’m a creative.

I don’t want to produce, even though I have to, you know, all the time or, or, um, so again, I’ve seen Kirsten has been such a huge resource, um, and, and, and really to all intents purposes has been my general manager. Uh, if, if I take the, let’s say if my title is artistic director, but when it comes down to it though, um, I still have to do the scheduling and figuring out who to hire and, and, and, and, and, um, it’s exhausting and it’s, and I’m not the best at it except it. Oh my God.

I’m just like democracy. I’m the worst at it except for everyone else kind of thing. No, like, like someone has to do it.

Right. And, and why would anyone produce for somebody else when it’s such a tedious, awful experience and there’s no money right in it, no way to make ends meet. And so I’m not surprised with what you said, but about stage combat, what frustrates me with that is, uh, and again, I’m totally out of limb here, but I think about our peers in other arts, right? Like if you’re a musician, you, you work with your instrument every day.

And, and if you’re a dancer, all the dancers I know go to classes all the time. And if you’re a painter, you paint, if you’re a writer, you write. Now there’s people at home, right? Going, I wish I could paint and write.

I hate myself. Please don’t take that from me in a negative way. But actors are one of the few artists I know that, you know, they’re making ends meet and they’re, and they’re bartending or, or, or they’re, um, uh, waitering.

And then it’s like, and now I’m ready to play Hamlet, you know? And, and it kills me because, uh, uh, obviously there’s lots of actors who take training, but let’s just say frequently when I’m called into work on a show, the actors do not have the level of physical training you want to see, right? So they, they can really run with all aspects of the show. So I’m going to another name drop. I have, uh, uh, friends of mine on the West coast, uh, fair of honor, uh, Jackie Nathania, and they are exceptional, exceptional in, in almost everything they’ve put their hands to.

And they, they shame me with how little I deal with physical building of myself because they, they are, they, they, they walk the walk, they talk the talk and in building their physical company, their performance company, they really train with their people and put them to a place where they can physically perform what they wish to, to portray. That is not the norm. Uh, another really excellent peer, uh, in Mississauga, Colleen, uh, has frog in hand again, really puts, uh, her money where her mouth is and trains and trains and trains and trains and brings people along and, and puts them, helps them to a place where they can really capture the quality of movement she’s looking for in her dance company.

And, and I’m, and I get it for my other peers who are actors who look, I need to make a buck. I don’t have money for classes. I get it.

I get it. I get it again. But when the time comes and the bell rings and you’re going to be playing someone who has a very special set of skills, you know, and has to be able to accomplish these things.

Um, it’s heartbreaking how often we don’t see it. And by the way, it leads to a statement someone once made to me, which made my heart sink. And it’s never quite come back.

The person said, Oh, I hate stage combat. Cause it always looks fake. And I looked around the room to the, to the, to the person, the people he was talking about, nobody in the room had trained.

And I was given, I don’t know, four hours, six hours that really, really needed 20. Like we have that statement about for every minute of performance time, it’s a mantra, right? Every minute of performance time, you should have 10 hours if you’re highly trained and you need actually 30, if you’re learning and training, but no one gives you 30 hours. 30 hours is the entire rehearsal process now for a play.

Right. Practically. Right.

And I get it because I’m not, I’m not a fool, but we’re also allowed to be a bit utopian in, in our, in our passions and our art. Right. And, uh, that really was what I think in a nutshell, why I started Rape Your Wit.

I wanted a place for people to come and train COVID as, as you know, uh, really knocked the legs out from what we were doing in that we had drop-ins where people could come in weekly and, and, and, you know, come in for a couple hours and learn a new skill or, or, or re reinvest in a skill they had. And, and I also, what I loved Kirsten, I were able to hire all the teachers in town and give them a chance to keep their skills sharp in, in directing and teaching. And, and, um, the whole goal was to, to create a community of people that would help each other shine, right.

And grow. And that’s the goal going forward. Um, but it’s a big world, right.

And I know that not everyone has had the time yet to train and I, and I guess I sound harsh, but it, it breaks my heart to be in the audience and see someone clearly uncomfortable as a person, not as a character, get through the fight bit so they could get back to the acting, which you can’t tell brutally sarcastic on my part, because the fight bit is the most honest part of the character because you’ve stripped away all of the social nicety and it’s them raw. Right. Yeah.

I think that, that we still, I think we still do see people who, I mean, I think I like to think we see it less, but that’s probably more of the circles that I move in. Uh, very, it’s, it’s less likely that we see people who are like, Oh wait, I, this is, we don’t need a fight director for this. We’re just going to, I’m hoping that’s going away.

Yeah. Our cousins who do intimacy design, uh, have had huge, huge success in getting people to take them seriously and to bring them in. Uh, and, and to, uh, though I’m sure if, if we were talking to someone at this moment, they’d say, no, they don’t give us enough time either, but I’m still struggling to get the time I think needed because there’s the conflict between like, just, we need them on their feet.

They need to work on their lines. We need to get the blocking in, uh, runs, runs, runs, runs, runs so they can get it working. And then, you know, God help us.

We got to do the tech. And, and it’s like, this takes forever and we have to do entrances and exits and lights. And like anyone who’s never been in the profession, um, and that is hypercritical doesn’t understand.

And this sounds like I’m talking against everything I just said a moment ago, but doesn’t understand everything we had to do. So, so again, with film too. So, so Kirsten said to me about how sad she feels when people just have the knives out for a show or a movie and really show a lack of awareness or respect for all the stuff they did to get it there.

And even if it isn’t your cup of tea, cause I’ve, I’ve seen many things. I went, I can recognize the art in this, even if it doesn’t speak to me. Right.

And there, and I know for a fact, there’s some movies I really appreciate that other people don’t. Right. But I’m seeing the craft put into it maybe.

And, and I’ve been there, right. Where you’re like, Oh my God, you know, just give me one more minute, one more. Okay.

It’s not going to happen. And, and I’m not an editor. Like, like I’ve, I’ve put together some, some videos, some small stuff during COVID just, but I’m not an editor and, and, and the painful tooth pulling it took for me to get what I got out, let alone trying to get a much higher quality product, much like you’ll get, because you’re going to do a masterful job on what we’re doing.

You know, is like, I, I’m trying to, to give people the benefit of the doubt, despite the fact what I said about mediocre. Right. I think there’s, there’s something about the, the, when we are you know, those, those moments when they don’t give, say for example, the stage combat the time and, you know, we’ve all been in those situations because there’s not enough time, you know, but, but we also like at a certain point, you also knew that you were doing Romeo and Juliet, which has a number of scenes with people waving swords around, um, which if you’re really respectful of your actors, you know, that there is a great potential for somebody to be hurt.

A hundred percent. And, and quite frankly, the audience is going to leave with the memory of the physicality long before, much longer than they, they have in other aspects of the show frequently. Right.

And more than once I I’ve shown up for rehearsal and been told, Oh, we’re just finishing this one thing. And I’m watching the minutes turn into 20 minutes, a half hour. And I’m like, I really need this time, you know? And, and, and it’s, I remember a director once telling me that I think your fight, I think you’re too, um, what’s the word he used? Not optimistic, but he was, he was like, basically, uh, he, you know, your fight was, was too long and too hard.

Uh, and, and I appreciate what he was saying, but at the exact same time we had booked a 15 hours for me to work with the actors from training all the way up to polish in the tech. And I had only gotten six of those hours, right? Not that I knew that was going to happen. Cause every time I came in, something would have happened.

And so I kept showing up without having actors or not having the floor or not having the weapons. And, and so it was a series of things, but being told that, and also from my side of it, knowing full well, um, I’d risk assigning defensive my, the length of fight and the, and, and the challenge of the fight was appropriate to the show and to the actors in the show. It simply was sabotaged by the reality, uh, that the time wasn’t given.

And, and also that the, you knew for a fact, you could tell if you were there with me that, um, the actors weren’t doing their homework either, right. Going home and working their lines and working and like, then doing the, the mental casting of like walking through the fight by yourself. Uh, and I remember once having, uh, an equity actor telling me like, well, I’m not being paid for that.

Right. Which I understand but, um, we all do things to prepare for our lives. Right.

Uh, like I remember hearing about someone talking about the, the, the argument practice that people often do in the shower when they’re going to go ask for a raise or the, like these things that, you know, we actually do all the time. And, and this actor in a rather, uh, dismissive way saying that to me when I basically told them that they weren’t ready, you know, like they weren’t, they just weren’t where they needed to be. And, and of course the worst being that their partner would clearly had done it.

Right. You can see that they had put in extra time. Um, and, and it’s, and there was a lot of projection on, well, that guy he’s hard to work with where it’s like, well, he is busting his tail for you.

Yeah. The thing that gets me about that statement, you know, I’m not being paid for that as I, that person is, is, is likely working on their lines in those hours. I would think so.

I would hope so because speaking as someone, so I’m very dyslexic. And, and so I really, when I was working as an actor and I, and I had to make a choice, right? Like all things, some people do many, many things, but to focus and I think really craft what I wanted to be, I had to make a decision and I decided to focus on fight directing and instructing. And so I did much less acting.

Right. But I had to put in the hours. Otherwise I never would’ve gotten off book.

Right. And, and, and we’ve all experienced the actor’s nightmare. Yes.

My lines don’t know what play I’m in. Right. And, and I cannot imagine, uh, purposely doing that to yourself.

Right. Though that’s interesting. Have you worked with an actor who insisted things always had to be fresh.

So they’re, they’re thinking of acting was always about reacting to spontaneous events. So I’m not talking about improvisation, which is amazing. Right.

That’s something else or, or, or games of improv and stuff like our performance. I mean, literally like they would always change blocking. Uh, and of course makes it impossible for fighting.

Right. Yes. And the idea that, that this is the only way they felt alive as an actor, totally neglecting all the other aspects of what it is to be in a partnership when performing be with your other actors or with the audience.

Right. And, and it could be a shit show because this person just might not have felt it that night. Have you had experience? Have you been on stage with one of those? I’ve had, I’ve absolutely been on stage with those people.

I’ve, I’ve, I’ve definitely done that. I’ve also had on the, uh, the other side of that where somebody is, I don’t know if it’s over rehearsed, but there is no spontaneity in anything they do. It’s like when it is, it is, it is places they press play on the tape recorder and everything is exactly the same as it was the night before.

So there, you find them rigid. They’re so rigid. And also like, they’re not actually reacting to anything because acting, you know, it’s both, it’s like acting and reacting.

And it’s one of the reasons why I think we find it so magical being in it and also being audience. Right. Uh, and as much as, and I love film and I love television, like I love recording medium, but there is something super, so human about the live event.

And I think that’s one of the reasons why I don’t think we’re ever going to see the death of live sporting events, live musical events, live theatre, because people want to experience that high, that risk of the immediate happening in front of them. Right. That’s super cool.

Right. And, and I, I, I, I remember the mousetrap in Toronto that was going on and on and on for years. Yes.

Yes. And someone I knew who was in it said there was another person who had been in it for forever and they would kind of stand a line on stage, mouthing the lines of other actors. Like they were almost like the zombie, like a zombie.

Right. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, um, there’s an acting exercise. How has, what’s the name of it? Where you basically say a word over and over again until it loses its meaning and it rediscovers its meaning.

Yes. You know, so this guy was like living his life that way, you know, and, and that’s, that’s kooky. That’s gotta be very kooky.

Yes, absolutely. On the other side of that, I, I remember hearing a story about somebody who was in the, in the mousetrap. I don’t know if it was the Toronto one or the, the, the one in London who had been doing it for so long, but they kind of weren’t all there.

So you never really know which part of the show they were going to be in. Oh my God. How’s that for a heart attack? Oh my God.

I don’t even want to think about that. Oh my goodness. Dan, we’re out of, we’re out of time.

I want to thank you for this, this great conversation. This has been, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much.

It was a huge pleasure. Thank you for having me.