Introverted Actors Roundtable
An introverted actors roundtable discussion featuring actor and playwright, Stephen Near; actor & Singer-Songwriter Carolyn Fe; writer, composer & and performer, Kristen Zaza; playwright & performer, Genevieve Adam; writer & actor Michael Ripley, and writer & theatre maker, Jess McAuley.
Stephen Near is an actor & writer working in Hamilton. His plays have been performed across Canada at various theatres and festivals including the Ottawa Fringe, the Toronto Fringe, the Hamilton Fringe, New Ideas, and Summerworks. He is a graduate of York University (BFA), the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education (B. Ed) and the MFA Creative Writing program at the University of Guelph. He is a member of the Playwright’s Guild of Canada, the Theatre Aquarius Creator’s Junction and Playwright’s Unit and an alumnus of the Sage Hill Writing Experience and the Banff Centre. Stephen is co-founder and playwright-in-residence of Same Boat Theatre in Hamilton. Stephen was named one of the inaugural Writers-in-Residence at Hamilton’s Cotton Factory and is a staff writer for the Hamilton arts and culture blog Beyond James.
stephennear.com
Twitter: @SNear23
Instagram: @stephenisnear
Carolyn Fe is a late-blooming Filipino-Canadian, tri-lingual Actress (English/French/Tagalog), Singer-Songwriter and former contemporary Dancer-Choreographer. Some Theatre credits include: Calpurnia (Nightwood/Sulong), Hilot Means Healer (Cahoots), Through the Bamboo (Uwi Collective) and Three Women of Swatow (Tarragon). At an age when her peers have long established themselves, Carolyn’s continuous pursuit of artistic evolution adds a new instrument to her art as an Emerging Playwright and Writer supported by Montreal’s Teesri Duniya Theatre’s Fireworks Playwrights’ Programme, The Toronto Arts Council, Ontario Arts Council, and, Toronto’s Nightwood Theatre, Factory Theatre’s Foundry Programme for Playwrights, Cahoots Theatre. Some TV/streaming credits include Lola (Grandma) in the Nickelodeon children’s show “Blue’s Clues & You!” and Madame Z in the award winning French webseries “Meilleur Avant” and the upcoming sketch comedy series “Abroad” on Omni Channel in Spring 2022.
Carolyn-fe.com
Twitter: @TheCarolynFe
Instagram: @thecarolynfe
Kristen Zaza is a writer, composer, and performer based in Toronto, Canada. She is currently producing the second season of her award-winning audio drama podcast, On a Dark, Cold Night.
www.kristenzaza.com
Twitter: @kristen_zaza
Instagram: @kristen_zaza
Genevieve Adam is a graduate of the George Brown Theatre School in Toronto and the East15 Acting School in the UK. Her first play Deceitful Above All Things premiered at SummerWorks in 2015 and won several accolades including Outstanding New Play, Outstanding Production, and Best Emerging Artist. It was remounted at the Factory in association with The Storefront Theatre in February 2017.
Subsequent plays include Bedsport (Newmarket National Play Festival), New World (Future Theatre Festival), Anatomy of A Dancer (Next Stage 2019), The Boat Show (Lost Souls’ Collective), and If The Shoe Fits, which won second place in the Toronto Fringe 2019 New Play Writing Contest.Her most recent play Dark Heart was named one of the top theatrical productions of 2018 by the Toronto Star.
Genevieve is also the poet behind the whimsical #haikusoflockdown series on Twitter.
Twitter: @FavourZeeBrave
Michael Ripley, 54, was born in Alberta but has spent most of his adult life in Ontario. He currently lives in Whitby with his wife and two sons. When Michael isn’t writing, performing or designing he spends inordinate amounts of time typing and immediately deleting long responses (which he never posts) to mean people on social media. He also eats far too many wine gums and watches not nearly enough basketball.
www.talentedmr.ca
Twitter: @TalentedMr
Instagram: @talentedmr
Jess McAuley is a Brock University graduate (theatre studies, honours) with a passion for devised theatre, writing, and pushing the bounds of adventure on stage. She is also one of the co-hosts of The Introvert’s Guide To…
Twitter: @mcauleyjes
Instagram: @itsjessmcauley
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Transcript
Welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host of this podcast. The theatre industry is a strange one.
Those who aren’t in it have a distinct impression of what it must be like, usually gleaned from film and television, which are largely fictionalized. And even those of us who are in the industry have some incorrect ideas about what the industry is like and what we have to be to succeed in it. Case in point, when I graduated from theatre school, I had this idea that in order to be an actor, I needed to be an extrovert.
I wasn’t, but I told myself that I was so that I could fit into my idea of what an actor was supposed to be. And I tried to be an extrovert, but I was terrible at it. Years later, I started telling myself that I was an ambivert because I still wasn’t ready to give up on the idea that an extroverted personality was needed to be an actor.
But I knew that I hated schmoozing and parties and things like that. But I couldn’t let myself be an introvert. I know now that there were two things going on.
First, there were deeply ingrained lessons from childhood about being more outgoing and making friends. There was pressure to be social, and not being social was deemed bad behaviour. Later on, when I first heard the word introvert, it was said as though it was a bad thing.
Who wants to be something that’s bad? But there was something else going on as well. I was conflating being an introvert with being shy. And since I was able to get on stage and be the centre of attention, since I enjoyed that, I couldn’t be shy.
And therefore, I thought, couldn’t be an introvert. And I carried that with me for a long time. That’s something that’s pretty common, mixing up introversion and shyness.
So you have these two ideas, that introversion is somehow a bad thing, and that an introvert is shy in a world that seems like it is built for extroverts. That’s why a few years back, I started another podcast with my friend Jess McCauley about being introverts in an extroverted world, because we just wanted to figure out how to be in the world and still be true to ourselves. We called it The Introvert’s Guide To, and we’ve both learned a lot and become more comfortable with being introverts.
But I wanted to talk to other introverts in the industry. And so I gathered six introverted actors to join me for an Introverted Actors Roundtable. And that’s coming up in just a moment after I get through some housekeeping.
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Remember, you can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod and you can find the website with the archive of all the episodes at stageworthypodcast.com. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickaby. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickaby.com. Joining me for this Introverted Actors Roundtable are playwright and actor Stephen Near, actor and singer songwriter Carolyn Fe, writer, composer and performer Kristen Zaza, playwright and performer Genevieve Adam, actor and writer Michael Ripley, and my co-host on the Introverts Guide to, writer and theatre maker Jess McCallan. I don’t know about you guys, but it took me a long time into my life in theatre to come to the realization and acceptance of the fact that I was not an extrovert because I had it in my head that you needed to be an extrovert to be an actor.
And it took me quite a while to realize A, that I was an introvert and B, that that was okay. What about you guys? Michael? Yeah. I found out very quickly that I was sort of situationally introverted.
There are times, especially when the cast includes people who have that competitively funny edge to them that I shut down. So there are times where I feel if I’m in the right environment, I can let my inner extrovert out. But the moment I encounter anything, when you work with people who need to be the funniest person in the room, for example, I can’t take that.
I just shut right down. I find the hardest thing for me is I’m good in a group. I’m good in a small group.
But as soon as we get into a situation with a lot of people, like I’ve said previously, if it’s a group of people over five, once we get past five, I’m out of my comfort zone. So if I’m in a group with a small number of people who are outgoing and over the top, I’m good. But other than that, I’m much in the same boat as you, Michael.
Jess, I saw your hand go up first. Yeah, I’ve always felt that because I was someone that preferred to be alone, that when I would be in these creative spaces with other creatives, that there was something wrong with me for wanting to be alone and just wanting to shut off. And I didn’t think I was going to thrive because of it.
I thought that this was going to be a weakness of mine, that because I seek solitude majority of the times, that my career is now going to suffer. I must not be an artist. And there was a lot of guilt that I actually felt came along with it.
And it wasn’t until I realized how many other introverted performers were in the room that I felt myself coming more into myself as an actor. I think it’s an amazing thing. Once you do realize how many performers actually are introverts, there’s a little bit of a, it can be a little bit freeing.
Stephen, I saw your hand go up next. Yeah, I don’t know. I found myself in some really uncomfortable situations as an artist because I trained initially as a director.
And I was really, really stumbled for many years afterwards trying to fit myself in the mold of being a director. And I was like, why is this not working for me? Because I trained for this and I have all these ideas. And then I kind of realized, oh man, I don’t have the, I’m not comfortable with this sort of extroverted sense of wanting to sort of, I don’t know, I guess take charge or be the sort of the focal navigator, if you will, or at least that model of directing that I thought was appropriate to be a director.
Like I just always felt really uncomfortable sort of having to be the person that watches what’s going on in the scene and then directs people and sort of being the authority. And I think it was one of the reasons that I finally realized, oh, I kind of enjoy playwriting more. And I enjoy the sort of the private space that comes with creating work sort of in the background.
And then even when I’ve been in the rehearsal hall as a playwright, I’ve often found that I’m much more sort of in the background observing things and kind of speaking one-on-one with the director than I am sort of in a communal sense. Carolyn. Yeah.
We’re seven people on this round table. Our cameras are off, but I see the seven names, including mine and listen to me, I’m starting to stutter already. I think I am a functional introvert.
I mean, I am a performer. I am a singer and I’m an actress on stage in front of camera. Something happens to me when I’m working, when I’m on stage or in front of camera.
Aside from the lines, yes, I kind of zone out who is watching me. When it comes to being a singer where it’s almost free improv on movement or whatever, I don’t remember what I do on stage. And then coming off stage right away, right after, when people start rushing at you, that really freaks me out.
You know, and then the festivals, oh my goodness, whether it be theatre festivals, I just, I know I have to be there if I’m not working because there are things that I want to see, food I want to taste, but I wish that there was nobody else on the ground. You know, it’s funny because Jess and I have a podcast about being introverts and we often talk about the theatre world and we have spoken about the fact that on stage, fine, you know, we perform, we do the thing and people are like, how can that be an introvert? And then after the show, as soon as people start approaching to talk to you about the show, that’s when it sort of hits. It’s not fear, it’s just like sudden discomfort.
Kristen? Yeah, this I thought would be a good opportunity to jump in with my feelings here, because for me, what Carolyn just said really resonated in you as well, Phil, about, I think the work is one thing. And that is, I agree where, you know, I find my confidence and we all know like, you know, friends and family come at you after saying like, you know, I would never get up in front of all those people and do that. And that’s, that’s one thing.
But it’s, it’s the, like the opening nights, or the, you know, the auditions, the events, the fundraisers that ultimately I found the most, the most difficult as an introvert. And I don’t really, I know that currently none of us are, you know, well, not many of us are doing work on stage right now. But it’s been, it’s, I sort of let that go, actually, because I found it too, too difficult.
Like, I just don’t think I think it was bringing out something kind of unhealthy in me and my personality, and it just wasn’t a good fit. And I made the switch to audio drama, and I’m much happier talking to myself. I feel like I’m a happier, healthier person, working on my own and not having that element, because it just felt like constantly needing to prove your your value outside of the work itself.
And I found it difficult to not, you know, to not just let the work speak for itself. You know what I mean? It’s the social element that I was the most uncomfortable with. Absolutely, absolutely.
Like, as I was saying about, you know, when those people come, you know, up to you after the show, for the longest time, I was so awkward when people would do that. And after a little while, I figured in my head, I thought, those people are coming because they’ve enjoyed the show, and they want a piece of something there for them, the show is still ongoing. And what I learned to do, actually, was I practiced saying thank you, because I used to just sort of be like, thank you, just like this really awkward sound that I would make.
And I learned and practiced a genuine what I what I consider my genuine thank you. It includes a stammer and everything just to make it sound like I’m not too practiced. But it was a way for me to be able to, to to deal with the public without being too awkward.
Jess, I saw your hand go up first. Yeah, the I just wanted to bring it back to the something we’ve talked about on our podcast before, Phil, was when we are performing, I think what makes it so much easier for us to transition onto the stage and be able to confront an audience or you know, whatever our connection with the fourth wall be, is that we don’t see the audience as many people, we see them as one being something that we can, we can easily connect with. It’s just this big beast.
Whereas whenever that fourth wall is suddenly broken, now, where we’re confronted by the many faces of that beast, there’s something that’s just uncomfortable about it. I for me, at least, you know, I also don’t like being the centre of attention. I absolutely go out of my way to avoid that one.
And I’ve and I’ve gotten married. So yeah, I don’t know that I very much could stay on stage and just say thank you to an entire audience and dodge out the back door if I could. I mean, that that would be preferable, to be honest, like if you could ditch your way out, do your thank you to the group and and then be gone.
I think that would be ideal. It unfortunately doesn’t always work that way. Stephen, you had some thoughts? Yeah, it’s it kind of speaks to that sort of the performative aspect of that that’s that people are talking about with regards to to sort of being out right and extroverted in front of in front of like individual people.
And I’ve, I have to admit, like, one of the things that I think is, I’ve, I’ve been very harsh about myself, with regards to my career, has been my my inability to mingle at, at, for industry, for lack of a better word, industry parties, or, you know, opening nights opening, like opening nights where, where industry, industry people are going to be artistic directors or drama company dramaturges. I remember recall having a conversation with a friend of mine who’s also a playwright, director. And I recall her saying, Oh, yeah, I’m going to, I’m going to the opening night of such and such party at Terragon.
And such and such is going to be there. And you know, dramaturge from factory is going to be there. And, you know, all of these names are going to be there.
And she says, you know, yeah, I gotta, I gotta go and mingle. Because this is this is how I’m going to pitch myself. And I said, God, that that’s so difficult.
You know, I have so much difficulty doing that. And she said, Well, you got to do it. It’s it’s how you get ahead, like, like, like it or not, you got to do it, you got to do it.
Because if you know, you don’t meet these people, then, then that’s it. And this is when I was living in Hamilton. And I just thought, Oh, why the fuck am I even doing this? Like, like, I’ve got one professional theatre in Hamilton, which really isn’t much of a professional theatre.
Like we don’t, they don’t develop any plays. But that’s a whole separate conversation. But even when I was living in Toronto, it was it was tough, like, friend, the fringe tent, right? Like, Oh, God, I would like shake, shake, I would feel so bad about having to go about going to the fringe tent, because I wouldn’t want to mingle with people, I would always be so relieved by like, oh, there’s, there’s a table, there’s a table full of people that I know, and oh, there’s someone of some name or import, who’s there and is talking.
And so it’s, I’m not going to feel like, all like, fucked up, like I’m pitching myself to them. And I’ve just found, I have found that aspect of being a theatre artist, so goddamn exhausting. And so, like, I’ve been really hard on myself saying, Oh, you, Stephen, you’re so bad at mingling.
So that’s why your career is nowhere. Because, you know, you haven’t, you haven’t been able to mingle and you haven’t been able to pitch yourself to, you know, this person or that person. So that’s why you’re not a playwright in residence or what have you.
It’s, and I think that was why that was actually why I wanted to, to be on this podcast, this roundtable, because I, I’ve just really like looking back on my career, I’ve been like, maybe I’ve been like way too hard on myself. There are absolutely, this is absolutely something that, that I can pretty much guarantee that everybody who’s on, in this roundtable has experienced. The networking aspect of, of this industry is, is awful.
It’s terrible. I know that like, whether it’s like at the fringe, going to the fringe tent or fliering a line, I have to, fliering a line, I have to work myself up. If you see me before, like before I hit a line, I guarantee you I’m over across the street with my head between my knees, just trying to breathe and calm down, psyching myself up to do it.
And then when it’s over, I’m like sweating and done and going to the fringe tent. I listen, the only way I can get myself in there is I’m like, okay, so here’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to go in, I’m going to stay for 15 minutes.
And if I don’t run into anybody, I’m out. And that’s what the promise I make, 15 minutes. And if I see somebody, if I see people I know, you better believe I gravitate towards them.
And I am essentially holding on for dear life, and I will pass off to the next person if I need to, but God, it is so difficult. Carolyn, I think I saw you first. Yeah.
Stephen just said a word that just made me break out into sweats. The word mingle. Oh, good Lord.
That’s horrible. That’s just, you know, and, and, and Phil, your example of going into the, the fringe tent. Oh, my God, any industry event, any, even family parties or friend parties, I find myself planning strategically.
What are, what are my moves going to be? Rehearsing some lines so as not to sound like, hey, how are you? You know, I just rehearsing those lines again and again, and then finding myself because, you know, I’m, I’m in Toronto now, I live in Toronto now. Two years we’re in this pandemic. Thank goodness that all those face to face parties are not happening.
Oh, my God. Yeah. But if let’s say we weren’t in a pandemic, I would have to force myself to get to those parties to show my face to say, hey, folks, I’m in Toronto now.
And you want to hire me. And that’s the wrong line to say, of course, you know, try to find the right words to just be part of the party when you’re seeing everybody else having their wine and cheese, and it’s as if it’s nothing. Carolyn, I want to I want to point something out to you is because when you go to these things, these these networking events or something, our attention is always drawn to the people in the middle of the room who are mingling and going around.
Next time you find yourself in that situation, I want you to turn your eyes to the edges of the room because you will see people there and those are your people. And I will teach you right now the magic words to say to your people. Don’t you hate these things? I’m in.
I’m in. I’m using that. Yeah.
No, just look for those people because they’re there. And you say something along those lines. They’re your new best friends right there.
You have yourself a little troupe of introverts. Somebody is going to come over and say, what’s all these interesting people doing? And maybe an extrovert will adopt you and take you around the room. But if at the very least, you found your little little cabal of introverts.
Zhamia, we haven’t heard from you, so I’d love to hear what you have to say. Yeah. Hey, first of all, the fringe tent is absolutely the maker of alcoholic introverts because the number of times that a little Dutch courage has been required, I mean, it’s bad.
It can be bad out there. I feel almost, I think, a different pressure when I go to an event and I see people. I feel that’s almost more pressure if I see people I know because then I feel like, oh, I have to talk about how great I’m doing or ask them about, hey, what are you doing? I much prefer to go to these events and be like, oh, great.
I see no one. Great. I’m going to go sit in the corner and hope that Carolyn or someone of her ilk comes and finds me, and we can both go, wow, this is tough.
Shouldn’t our work just speak for itself? It is definitely a tough one. And like I said, when I go to those things, it’s just like when I go to a party, I have to promise myself 15 minutes, especially for the fringe tent. I’m so stressed going into a networking event like that that the only way I’m getting myself in that door is what seems to someone else like a very short period of time, but it’s 15 minutes.
And chances are, I’ll stay longer because I will run into somebody, and I will almost literally glom onto them, whether it’s a physical glom or just like a proximity glom who’s like in the middle of a conversation or something like that. But I will, I will do that, and maybe I’ll stay longer. But it’s just the promise of all I have to do is 15 minutes.
And if nothing, if I don’t see anybody, I can go. That’s what gets me in the room. That’s a good way.
Good way. Yeah. I’m envious of extroverts, but I’ve only realized this later in life.
My envy was masked as judgment, kind of a self-care or a protection, you know, that kind of shaped my opinion of people throughout my life. I’ve always been drawn to people who know how to turn it off. Like I always, on SCTV, I always enjoyed Eugene Levy more than Martin Short, for example.
And I never realized that this was even a thing until I saw Eugene Levy on Letterman once and realized that he was this quiet and meek person. And it’s kind of in a flash, I realized that the reason I was drawn to him was because he was a reflection of me. My judgment of people who, quote unquote, couldn’t turn it off, was born of my own insecurity more than anything.
And understanding that has made things a little bit easier. But also, I just don’t like people all that much. Michael, I wonder if for you, that feeling that you had about the extroverts, is it also exacerbated by the fact that so many people, some even in the industry, think that because you are an actor or a performer in theatre, that you are automatically an extrovert.
And that can be, to me, that feels very like, well, that’s quite an assumption, but it feels off-putting. What do you think about that? No, I think you’re right. And I remember I did a few plays for CBC Radio in the late 90s, and back when they did actually in-house productions of plays on the radio.
And the casting director liked me and brought me on to audition for this ongoing series. And I’ve always been really good at character voices. It was kind of a political show.
There was, the cast was called upon to do impressions, which I’m not great at, but I’ve always had a bit of a knack for character voice. And I nailed the audition. And I remember on the, and they hired me, and I remember on the first day, all the actors were gathered in the room.
And I shared a joke, just a little bit that made fun of the way people in the audience get holier than thou on shows like Maury Povich or Red Elk. It wasn’t even my joke. It was a share of a thing done by someone I’d worked with previously.
And that was a point I underlined. Anyway, the room thought it was hilarious. Everyone but this one comedian.
And once the laughter died down, they stood up and in front of everyone kind of walked up to me and gave me this pat on my head. I kid you not. It says, not bad work, solid single, not a home run, but honestly, we weren’t expecting much.
And I was crushed. He thought he was being hilarious. Everyone laughed.
And sure, that was bullying. But it was also him just kind of staking a claim in a way that took a great deal of confidence. He sort of challenged me to be what you were talking about, that extroverted person that all actors should be, that I should be able to just take that joke, that it should just roll water off a duck’s back and we can all move on.
But the truth is, he climbed me up. That show ran for three or four seasons. I was dropped after season one because I completely lost my confidence.
Well, in some ways, I mean, he was essentially like claiming his territory as the comedian. Right. And and and it was generally a shitty thing to do, Stephen.
Yeah, I’m I’m really glad that you brought up the the notion of of, you know, how others perceive those who are in theatre, because I wonder if if some of some of the conflict and the discord that happens with with introverts in this industry and, you know, specifically I’m sort of talking about myself comes from comes from the training and sort of the the arena of theatre training. And I say this, recognizing that not every theatre creator comes, you know, comes from the same training background. But I assume that that many that many actors have come from some sort of, you know, repertory program or a post-secondary post-secondary university education of some type.
And I always found that that though, you know, some of the early classes that I would take in terms of theatre training always, always emphasized, you know, pulling you out, you know, the necessity of pulling you out of your shell. Right. Like like, you know, you can’t be inner, you know, inward facing.
You have to be out. You have to be open. You have to be vulnerable.
And and obviously, you know, there’s merit to that, obviously, if you’re going to be a performer. But I always found, too, that that as a student, if you were a student in that situation, you were always at least for my purposes and many of my classmates, there was always this perception of, you know, we have to, you know, impress our professor if we’re going to advance forward. Right.
Or, you know, because there’s always a sort of a sense of a competition. Right. In order to get into the next class or the next year, at least I know it was in my studies at York, there was there was never I never really sensed that, you know, whoever you were, whatever your genuine sense of of your personality was acceptable with regards to to being an actor.
I always sense that, you know, you were always fighting against. I always felt that I was fighting against my own nature, which is really actually why I auditioned to get into the in York. It’s a four year it was a four year program.
And after first year, you kind of auditioned to get into the the the actor’s specialty program and everyone wanted to go in there, except if you were in production. And I I auditioned to get into the acting program and I got in and I was there for like one sort of week of classes and kind of got the lay of the land and realized, I don’t want to do this. Like, I don’t I do not want to be here.
I do not want to be doing these exercises, these these miming things, these these mask things, these like like, you know, the physicality type stuff, the warm up stuff, which I just bristle against because it was all out. It was all open. It was all big blah.
That was ironically enough when I when I said I’m just going to move to directing. And then I realized I realized after that, that when I wanted to go into directing, what I was really interested in was playwriting. Like I was just really interested in in the back, the guts of scene work and even writing my own scenes.
But I wasn’t really interested in being performative in any way. And I guess I kind of I wonder how much of that is is the training ethic that that goes into and goes into training theatre people, specifically acting. There is so much to unpack there, because I remember starting theatre school and everybody was so big and out there.
And it was the same thing in when I was in doing doing a community or amateur theatre in high school and things like that. It was always so big. And that’s I think that’s one of the reasons why I got the idea that that’s what you needed to be.
And, you know, I think for a little bit I was able to maintain that. But, man, it’s just exhausting. And I think some of that has to do with why so many actors deal with a social social situation, whether it’s a networking event or something else, by requiring a little liquid courage, as John was saying.
And I think you’ve got something to add. Yeah, I don’t advocate that, by the way, kids, don’t. It’s actually not recommended.
No, don’t deal. No, that is not endorsed by this podcast or by myself. I think Stephen’s point about competition is interesting.
I think that almost like kind of one-upmanship also just comes from the ridiculous scarcity mentality we have in this country, especially about theatre. Like, you know, there’s no jobs. There’s no jobs in film.
There’s no jobs anywhere. So when you get on that set, you better steal that other person’s awesome move they just did. You better take that line out of their mouths.
And I’ve had these things happen to me on set where someone who was more vocal, you know, that person who comes in and is immediately buddy-buddy with all the crew and just like, you know, networking, you’ll do a take. And she literally took a line out of my mouth. And then we moved on.
And I was like, what the what just happened there? And I worked in the UK for many years. And I mean, Lord knows what it’s like there now, Brexit and stuff. But there was government funding for theatre.
The film industry was set up in a different way. And not that you’re not going to meet jerk faces who want to climb on your back to look funny, like Michael’s example, which is horrible, Michael, and I’m really sorry that happened to you. That’s just bad.
You know, not to say that won’t happen. But it just felt like there was a little bit more pie to go around. So people could be a little bit more collaborative.
You know, it didn’t have to be so cutthroat, like me, me, me, I’m the funniest. Look at me, and I’ll shove you down to get there. And I mean, you know, that’s my individual experience.
I’m sure everybody’s had different ones. But I just wonder if we could be more generous to our artists in this country, if then the artists could be more generous to each other. I mean, just to jump on that, I’ve been thinking about this a lot, just in terms of other things is the fact that, you know, if we look at the Toronto ecosystem, you look at Hamilton and some of the surrounding areas, there’s a very limited number of theaters, for example, if we just look at the theatre world specifically, because this is a theatre podcast.
And there’s really very few producing theaters as things go. And so there’s very few jobs, because they also tend to do smaller casts. And that’s just, unfortunately, the nature of this system that we have that is entirely funded, for the most part, by grants and things like that.
So that we’re kind of in this situation where it’s a very small pie with very large pieces of that pie. And there’s not a lot to go around. Carolyn, I saw your hand up first.
Yes. Jumping off of Geneviève’s comment about the competition, and Phil, your comment about Toronto having such a small theatre world. I come from an even smaller theatre world, Montreal, you know, where you can count on both hands how many theatre companies are out there.
But for me right now, it’s, it’s huge, Toronto. Huge. You have the established companies, you have commercial companies, you have the indie companies, and then you have the startup companies are also doing things that are interesting.
So for me, my point of view is, oh my god, there’s just way too many. I think I’ll just stay home. And then, you know, going, I’m glad we don’t, we rarely or pandemic talk, we don’t go into physical auditions anymore.
I am very, very happy with self tapes, whether it be for theatre or film or TV. I am so happy with self tapes, because going into a lobby, when you see 50 of the same genre of you sitting there, vying for the same role, fudge. That’s competition right there.
And I hear these people, these, these other actors says, say that, oh, I’m not never in competition. There’s only one role. And of the 50, they’re going to choose one.
So you’re going to steal my line like riffing off of Geneviève, you’re going to steal my line. Oh, lobbies. Thank you pandemic.
No, it’s actually I mean, that that because the the in person audition is still a social situation where you are still on. You’re still you’re essentially performing from the time you walk into the building where the audition is taking place. And you’re still trying to be you’re trying to be outgoing and friendly for everybody who’s there such a so difficult to do.
Jess, I saw your hand up first. I wanted to make a comment. That was it’s funny, Carolyn, I come from even smaller than I come from Niagara, we’ve got like, maybe two or three professional companies.
So the opportunity is so scarce that I think I’m at this point where I am searching incredibly hard to find opportunities to build myself up professionally. And thankfully, I, you know, I’ve found a writer’s unit to get my to get myself out there. But as an introvert, it’s such a strange place to say, I need more.
I need to be out there more, I need to push myself, I need to get out, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? And, you know, being in Niagara, it’s, you know, Toronto’s a little bit of a journey we don’t, driving was really my, my only mode of transportation that I have. And then you’ve got Hamilton. But I’ve, I found myself in this wonderful challenge, though, because before the pandemic, I, you know, that felt like there were so many opportunities, where’d they all go? And, you know, it’s great that things are videotaped.
But at the same time, videotape, wow, show my age there. I, it’s great that that these things are digital. But at the same time, though, I feel so far away from it all, because I can’t see anybody.
I can’t meet anyone. Yeah. Yeah.
Kristen, I saw you next. Yeah, I’m thinking about, I heard the the word, jealousy and the word competition coming up. And that’s sort of what I was, I guess, trying to touch on earlier when I was thinking about, you know, why I found the whole thing kind of unhealthy for me and my personality type.
And something that really set me off was the amount of times I would do a show like, you know, the rare time I would do a show that a lot of people saw, or, you know, do an audition that people responded well to, or whatever, perform something that people enjoyed. They would, this recurring thing would happen to me where someone would come up to me after, or, you know, online, maybe say something about this, or like, I’d say, Kristen Zaza is, is really great. It’s a shame we don’t see her so much on stage, or, you know, it’s, why don’t people, or why don’t you do this more often, I would get a lot.
And it drove me crazy. Because first of all, it’s like, obviously, if I would, I could, you know, the problem is, it’s not, I would ask the same question to the people I’m auditioning for, or whatever. And we’re in a, we’re in a city where, you know, there’s competition to do the, I don’t want to put down any companies, but, or anything like that.
But like, where we’re non paying non union work is hard, like, you have to fight tooth and nail to get into, you know, let alone a professional company or a general to get noticed at a general audition for a big company or something like that, you know, and it would really, it was pretty, pretty heartbreaking and defeating after a while to hear like, wow, you’re so great. You know, why don’t we see you around? It’s an excellent question. One that really got under my skin in the worst ways.
And a lot of times, these would be the same people who when I would be in the room with them or something, you know, were the same ones not giving me opportunities and even the like, simplest level of things, you know, it’s the competition, I think. I don’t have a knack for it. And I don’t enjoy it.
And I don’t like what it brings out in me. And I think that that gets equated with a lack of ambition. And that’s simply not true.
You know, I think probably everybody in this room, if we’re this virtual room, for associating ourselves as introverts can, can appreciate that, you know, especially because I think we are the first ones to start creating opportunities for ourselves, because I think we see that we, A, feel the need and perhaps B, feel a bit more comfortable doing that. Absolutely, absolutely. Because, you know, as I look down the list here of everybody who’s in this room, I know for a fact that everybody in this room makes their own work in some way, whether they playwright, whether they’re the collective creator, where they perform and write and all of these sorts of things.
Everybody in this room is in that position of doing that. And I don’t think that’s an accident for the introvert creative urge. Michael, I saw your hand first.
You might be muted, Michael. My apologies. Yeah.
First of all, I would just like to second that self tapes are amazing and the best thing to ever happen to my career. Auditions were a nightmare. Not only are they obviously hard, because there’s so much competition, but living out in Durham, it’s like an hour there and back through the traffic, and then I’ve got to shake that off.
And I’m confronted with a room full of people that I’m very familiar with, who all are essentially me. And I have this crippling feeling of not belonging, of, I don’t know, sort of a dysmorphia almost. The more I think about being there, the more I feel like I don’t belong there.
So yes, self tapes, great. I don’t know what I’m going to do when I have to go back to in person. But in contradiction to that, I also yearn for connection, and I really enjoy rehearsal, and I really enjoy collaboration with collaborative people.
So it’s this, I think going back to what you said, Phil, that you work well in smaller groups, not so well in larger groups. I would like to say I’m similar to you in that way, but I need to sort of cultivate the group in order for me to feel comfortable enough to allow my extroverted side out. But beyond that, how do we deal with all of this? Are there tools that people that we can, that maybe you guys can give me, what are the tools that people use to navigate the barriers that we place and are placed in front of us in these situations? I mean, that is sort of, that’s a great question.
And I will first off admit, and Jess and I have talked about this pretty recently on our podcast, The Introvert’s Guide 2, about one of my issues when I’m going into some kind of social situation, whether it’s a party, a networking event, or any other kind of thing, is there’s this sense of, I think that, I think what you were expressing, Michael, about a lack of confidence. And in fact, there’s a lot of negative self-talk that happens in my head as I’m going or getting ready to go to something like that. And that’s one of the things that I’ve learned to combat with the question as I’m thinking, the most common one, Phil, no one likes you, why would you bother going? Is examining that and thinking, look, wait, is that true? I know that there are people who like me, and I know that some of them are going to be there.
And again, that promise for only getting in the door for 15 minutes, those are definite, definite things that I do. I think solutions and tips and tricks we can start to work towards, but I know that Stephen and Jambi have had something. Stephen, why don’t you go first? Yeah, so I think for introverts, the adage, there’s strength in numbers is not true for us.
What I would say is there really is confidence in collaboration. And I think that’s what I’m hearing from a lot of people. My sense of finding my own voice as an artist, I think, really only came about when I was able to find consistent partners who wanted to collaborate with me on creating new work.
I was never one of these people that, I think I thought that, oh, I was going to be this person, this artist who was going to create stuff on my own. And when the media covers artists, when NOW Magazine puts someone on the cover of NOW Magazine, it’s very common that it’s a specific artist that people are looking at. And I think that was an image in my head that I had to conform against.
But really, I only came into my voice, I think, when I started working with directors, specifically in my case, that I could work with one-on-one. And then the two of us could be a collaborative team. And then through that, I was able to work with actors and set designers and stuff like that, and what have you, to bring pieces to life and to feel comfortable with myself and to kind of come out of my shell.
So I really thought that the creation of work in collaboration with someone was always, for me, that was a really big step forward. In terms of sort of other strategies, though, I think there’s also, once I was able to, and this kind of goes back to what you were saying, Phil, I think once I was kind of able to get away from judging myself and just frankly being more comfortable with being an introvert in sort of a crowded party space. Not forcing myself to be performative and go up to someone and make conversation for the sake of making conversation, but going to a party and hanging around the snack table and putting food on the plate and sitting down and just being comfortable with that.
And whoever comes up and talks to me will talk to me, and if not, whatever. That’s not always worked, but it’s worked a whole heck of a lot better than forcing myself to go up to someone that I didn’t know that I thought I should have a conversation with, and then walking away from that conversation feeling even worse than I did beforehand. Yeah, absolutely.
One of the things about those networking events and parties and things like that, all these things that we quote unquote should do, is there is a tendency in the industry, unless it’s like a reception after an opening, for example, to show up to those things a little later, which always means that everybody is a couple of drinks in, and you might not because you’re just arriving. I think that it’s better to show up early, but then that’s me. I’m one of those annoying people who shows up to things early.
And what that allows you to do is to get the lay of the room, and find your spot, and just sort of like figure out, like you can see who’s coming in, but it’s a little less tense and a little less intimidating than if you walk into the room that’s already full. Genevieve? Yeah, maybe people can take courage from this. I recently sort of discovered that A, you can email a lot of people during the pandemic, and they will talk to you happily when maybe they wouldn’t have beforehand, especially if you’re just radically open and honest, and you’re like, hey, I really love your work, or hey, I’ve sent you a couple of things, and you’ve never seen me.
Could we like have a little chat about that? And I feel much better pitching by email. I feel like there’s no stakes if they never get back to me, and they have actually because of the pandemic. But the second thing, which can maybe help, or I don’t know, maybe it’s terrible, is when I did speak to some of those people I emailed, and I was like, hey, so why hasn’t it ever happened for us, basically? And they were like, oh, we just thought you were really self-contained, and arrogant, and didn’t need us.
And I was like, oh no, I was scared. I was not confident, and aloof, and knew what I was doing. I was just terrified of approaching you.
So I think it’s, and I kind of, I mean, obviously, that’s not awesome either. But I gained a bit of confidence that I was like, okay, nobody knows what you feel. Nobody knows if you feel a little intimidated.
They might be intimidated by you. And you know, that kind of released me from having to be cool, and I can, you know, I can find a way forward that’s not so scary through kind of goofy honesty with people. Like, that one’s easy for me.
It’s accessible. So once we can get there, then we can build a real relationship, right? But it’s just, it was just a funny moment for me. I’m like, here I am, thinking that they don’t want to talk to me, and I suck, and I’m an imposter.
And meanwhile, they’re just like, well, she just doesn’t need us. She thinks she’s awesome with her, you know? So it’s just a, it was a humbling reminder that, that, you know, they, nobody knows anything about anybody. I want to, I want to jump in here, Stephen.
Stephen, as in the chat, has put introversion mistaken for arrogance. And I want to point out that that’s, that’s, sometimes it’s not arrogance. Sometimes it’s mystery.
But sometimes it’s arrogance, right? There’s, there’s like this thing that happens with the introvert that keeps to themselves. In some ways, there are people who are like, No, what are they actually thinking? What’s going on over there? But in some ways, we can be intimidating in that way. Now think about that, and how much anxiety we often have in those situations, that in some ways, the people that we are intimidated by are intimidated by us.
The other thing I would say is, I was talking with Jackie Maxwell years ago, and she said, Here’s the secret. And she said, I tell everyone the secret, and I’m telling you the secret. It’s important to know.
The secret is that people want to help you. All you have to do is ask. And whether it is, Do you have, do you, can I buy you a coffee and we can sit down and chat? Whether it’s, it’s, you know, I just, I just, you know, I had some questions.
People will almost always say yes. I have, in the course of six years of doing this podcast, never had anybody say no to coming on the podcast. People are genuinely interested in, in, in, in doing things and, and helping out.
And so just even shooting an email that says, Hey, can we, I’ve seen you in this, I have some questions. Can we sit down? They will almost always say yes. And that’s a fascinating thing.
Carolyn? Yeah. That Judeo Christian saying, ask and ye shall receive. It is so true.
But to even get there, to even say, Okay, I need help on this. I see the person that has the skill or whatever, to help me. And that person may be in my mind, up high on some pedestal.
I am not worthy. That’s where my brain goes. I am not worthy.
I am not worthy. So what happens? Like Genevieve says, you know, I have this resting face that looks like I’m arrogant. Um, you know, for those who don’t know me, I am Asian.
So my features might look a bit harsh when I’m not smiling. And then all these people think, Oh, oh, that’s Carolyn. That’s Carolyn.
She’s, she’s, uh, yeah, she’s good on her own. She doesn’t need help. Oh, I do need help.
I’m dying inside. But how do, it’s always that, how do I break through to ask that person for help? Please, somebody in this roundtable, please tell me. Here’s what I, here was what I will jump in and I will say is it’s important to remember, because what Jackie Maxwell was saying is true.
People want to help you keep that in mind that, you know what you could say, listen, I’m, I there’s, I’ve been around for a while. I have questions. Can you help email is certainly like, don’t pick up the phone.
And, and, you know, as, as I’m speaking to a room full of introverts, nobody’s picking up the phone, but it’s the idea of, of, of sending that email can also be intimidating, but just remember most, they, people are want to help. And so you can ask that question. And you, if, if you, if you, you know, write it out a couple of times, send it to a friend and say, if I send this to so-and-so, what do you think? And if you can send it to another introvert, because if you have an extroverted friend, they might tell you to do something, say something else, but like, just, just, just send the email.
I know whenever I send one of those emails, I’m always stressed before I do it, but I’ve never been disappointed by, by the outcome. Stephen. Yeah, I would just second that.
I, I was, and I, I think I wish I had, I wish I had had the courage and, and I’d known basically had heard that that piece of advice you just told me a lot earlier in my career because you know the, I, I’m, I always think, oh, it’s going to be so much harder than it actually will be. But, but you know, the, the, the times that I’ve, I’ve, you know, sent an email to an artistic director or a literary manager at a, at a company or, or, or even, or even artists that, whose work I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve admired, you know, have, have all responded, oh yeah, sure. Why, why don’t we get together here and here? And, and I, I, I will, I recall one time I, I, I sent a script to, to, to the artistic director of a, of a, of a theatre.
It didn’t go anywhere, but it did, it did open up a dialogue. And I was always really surprised by, by that, by how, not easy it was, but how, how less painful it, it was. Like the anxiety before, you know, mounting up to that, the, the actual action was, was far, was far more than, than the actual act itself.
And so I, I would, I would echo your, your suggestion. I mean, just sending an email and, and, and just reaching out is, is a good thing because it makes me wonder, well, how many of us in the community really are introverts, but are just being performative as extroverts, right? For, because we’re in the theatre and we have to be performative in some way, shape or form. We have to put on a show because weirdly enough, a lot of people that I meet in this industry, when I meet with them face to face, either tell me, Oh, I’m, I’m, you know, I’m very, I’m a very private person, or, you know, I don’t really like the, I don’t really like industry parties or what have you, or very obviously are, you know, my type of people.
So it’s, it is, it is, it is a fascinating thing to think about. And I can tell you that, you know, in six years of doing this show, I’ve spoken probably to more introverts than extroverts, but I think there are some people who mask it better. Some people mask it by throwing, you know, again, the little Dutch courage or, which again, we don’t endorse or recommend.
But there are, there’s, there’s a little bit of, of, of the idea of, of, if I go to, if I, if I’m at a Fringe Festival, if I’m looking around, there are people who do it so well. Like the, the, the flyering lines and all that sort of thing. I think to myself, they absolutely must be extroverts.
They must be. And for the most part, they are. Otherwise, I’ve seen them with their head between their knees, hyperventilating, psyching themselves up to hit the line.
There’s the two kinds, and you can almost spot them doing it. But some people are just, there’s also the, there’s also the ambivert, which is another thing entirely, entirely. Carolyn, it’s an excellent question.
What is a flyering line? When people are at the Fringe Festival and they line up outside the venue, something that happens in, in a lot of Fringe Festivals, but not all, Montreal does not line up, for example. At least when I was there, there were no lines, people just sort of showed up when the show was about to start. But we go to the line as performers and presenters and go through the line, handing out flyers to try to get people to come to our show.
So we go to another show’s line and try to get them to come to the show. Geneviève, I know you had some thoughts. Oh, just, just more on how to motivate yourself to send that email.
This works for me. And it speaks to what a bad person I am. But if ever I get really jealous of a peer, like, you know, I see something on Facebook or I hear that so and so’s show has just been made on CBC and I feel really bad about myself and start going, well, wow, you don’t have a book published like they do.
You’re the same age and you’re not at Stratford. That’s when I schedule an email to someone because I’m like, I got it. I have that energy and it’s negative energy.
And it spurs me and I’m like, OK, let’s let’s do something positive rather than sitting here and spiraling. And that works really well because I’m a mean, jealous person. I mean, I one of the things that I have, I mean, you know, the whole like the whole idea of networking parties, that sort of thing.
I’m pretty good at sending emails now, although I will I will admit every time I am about to send one of those emails, I’m still stressed out. So that’s just a fact of doing it now. I have some anxiety ways, but I definitely I’ve learned how to how to do it.
And I know that it’s usually going to it’s going to turn it’s going to turn out fine with those parties and networking things like Jess and I have said so often on The Introvert’s Guide to the the promise, even if you have trouble getting there, the promise of of that you only have to stay for 15 minutes is such a good way to get yourself in the door. And then once you’re there. Chances are you will either find somebody that you know, a nice extrovert to adopt you and sort of like be your shield in the room, or if you look around the edge of the room, you’ll find the other introverts that you can then those are your people and you can go talk to them.
And you may actually be surprised about who the introverts in that room are. They might be people that you thought were extroverts and there they are. And and and now you now you have something in common with them, something you can discuss.
And chances are, you’re going to have some better conversations with the introverts than you would the extroverts anyway. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, Phil, I still think you need a smoke bomb to leave a party. Oh, come on.
You absolutely do. Listen, and what what Jess is referring to is is I’m a big believer in what’s known as in some circles, the Irish goodbye. And that is I come in, I make sure you know, say hello to whoever the host is.
And I go and if the 15 minutes are up, and I’ve decided that I need to go, I’m gone. I don’t say goodbye. They saw me come in.
Later on, they might be like, when did Phil leave, but I don’t worry about that. I just get out because I’m done. Anybody else have have other tips? I feel like so many wonderful points were said, I’m trying to think of something.
Michael. So this is a bit performative, but I found when my shyness is getting a bit too much when the when I’m feeling particularly introverted, and I’m going into an audition, that I have a conversation with myself in the car or outside of the room. Before I’ve started to interact with any of the other people I’m auditioning.
And it’s a bit of a mind trick, but I convinced myself that I don’t really want this job. And I go, I make a list in my head of the reasons why this job isn’t isn’t right for me. It’s a big waste of my time.
And it’s a it’s a mind trip. It’s a bit of a bit of a trick of the mind. But when I when I get into the room, I often find and has been successful for me on a few occasions, that I enter with a quality that draws people in that I, that I wouldn’t normally have.
And that, I don’t know, there’s that human. I think this is naturally human reaction that people have in the way that the heart sometimes wants the thing it cannot have. Coming in with this idea that I have better things to do.
Let’s get this over with, has given me a confidence, which is actually a few gigs over the years. Jess. I think something that helps me, and especially in this, when speaking about the jealousy, in specific, specifically with the jealousy, sorry, tripped over my words there.
There is room for everybody in this field, as much as the jobs are scarce, and it can be competitive. Like Phil said, a lot of us are creators, we do create our own work, and we collaborate. And when I see others achieving something that I wanted, or they went out and got it before I could even think of doing something that incredible, I just remember that there is room for me too.
Although I move at a different pace, although my needs are going to be different, I know that I am valid as an artist, even when I am not creating, I am still an artist, and I still have that capability within myself. So I think just finding ways to have that little tool belt of self-reassurance and good affirmations as an artist is really a good form of self-care as well. Because I think introverted artists definitely need that little self-pat on the back that we’re doing better than we think.
Absolutely, absolutely. And one of the reasons why I wanted to have this conversation is there is that perception that actors are extroverts. And sometimes as introverts, we sometimes think we’re the only ones out there, that there are so few of us.
And it’s so not true. As we can see, there are so many people that I couldn’t fit into this conversation who reached out and said that they are introverts and they’d love to have the conversation. And it’s just a fact that there’s probably more of us than we think.
So, you know, if you, there’s, you know, seven people as a part of this conversation who you as a listener now know are introverts. And so now you know that you’re not alone as an introvert. And that’s something to know.
And also, like now, you know, watch the corners of the room, watch the edges of the room. That’s where your people are. And that’s such an important thing.
If you ever see me at an event, first off, if you see me at some kind of social event, understand that I might be near the end of my 15 minutes that I promised myself, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t come over. And you can use the secret word, the secret passphrase, which is, I hate these things, don’t you? And I 100% will, you know, I’ll welcome you into whatever is happening because I understand you’re my people. There’s an interesting thing about the things that we interpret our, our introversion as, because sometimes, as Jess and I have discussed on our podcast, is about, sometimes anxiety goes along, along with the, the introversion.
And we can think of the, we can think of our introversion as, as a, as a deficit, as some kind of bad thing. And often we can give it an unhealthy name, such as cowardice, which it absolutely is not. Remember that this is just a way of how you, you interact with the world.
You get your energy from a different place than extroverts do. You communicate in a slightly different way. And sometimes it just takes a little more to get you in the room, but that is 100% not cowardice.
It’s, it’s listening. Remember, listening is our superpower as introverts. So it puts us into, whenever we walk into a space, we’re more aware of what’s going on, and we’re more aware of the things that are happening around us, and we’re listening better.
Um, just to, just to throw that out there. Uh, as we draw to a close, does anybody have any final thoughts before we end tonight? Carolyn? Um, I think you nailed it on the head when you said listening. We are sponges.
We, we get the vibe of the room. We get the feel of the room through whatever insecurities we have. We are that much more open.
And again, referring back to this, these Judeo-Christian sayings, which I am not a, I don’t practice, it’s, um, the meek shall inherit the earth. I think, yeah, listening and then inheriting whatever is surrounding us. Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting because you, you talk about, about the listening and all of that sort of stuff.
The, the sensitivity is another way of putting it. Uh, in Susan Kane’s book, Quiet, she describes the introverted child as a highly sensitive child, or that, that introverts are highly sensitive. And so that is the thing.
We walk into a room full of people. In some ways, we are overwhelmed by all of the things that’s going on. It’s, uh, it’s an excellent book and I do recommend it.
Quiet by Susan Kane. It’s such a great book for any introvert to read. Geneviève, I think you have some thoughts too.
I was just going to say, I think we should get t-shirts made for the introverts and we can all just, you could, you could sell them, Phil, and you’ll just slap one on at a networking event and then you’ll just look for people wearing, or give each other a secret handshake or something. Just a t-shirt that says introvert or a button. You could just like have a nice little subtle button that just says introvert.
It would have to be subtle, right? Because the introvert would never put the t-shirt on in the first place. That’s right. But if you get like a button that says, that’s like the, an introvert symbol, it says introvert on it, because we’re looking for that sort of thing, you’ll see it, you’ll be like, ah, I need to talk to that person.
I love it. I would probably wear the introvert t-shirt just to, just to, to, to be that kind of annoying person. But I, it’s, it’s probably a good idea.
Just, we’re about to wrap up. So if anybody has anything else that they want to say, now’s your time. Yes.
Thank you, Phil. This has been, this has been wonderful. Quite cathartic.
Thank you. Thank you, all of you. And I, I would say to anybody who’s listening, take note of the people who are, who are participating in this, know that they are your people.
Know that I’m your people. If you’re an introvert, if you have questions about being an introvert in the industry, reach out. If you’re writing a letter and you write an email to somebody and you’re like, I need a pair of introverted eyes to look over this message.
I’m happy to look it over. I’ll take a look. Just don’t inundate me too much, but I’m happy to look those over for you.
So, so you could send those off. Jess. So unrelated, but just as a little thing here, an introverted round table, and yet this has been the like, so organized, well articulated comments.
Everyone’s just been so lovely. Awesome. Thank you so much, everyone.
Thank you for, for having this conversation. It’s, been wonderful. And I look forward to when we can see each other at a distance sometime in the future.
