Mateo Chavez Lewis

Mateo is a young singer, songwriter, actor and pianist currently working on the lands traditionally known as Tkaronto. In 2020, he wrote and produced “Quarantine Songs,” a song cycle about different characters dealing with the pandemic, which had its digital premiere on YouTube, featuring performers from Stratford, Mirvish and Charlottetown Festival stages. He is currently preparing to appear in Forever Plaid with Starvox Entertainment, and running a YouTube channel where he uploads weekly analysis videos of the greatest songs from the musical theatre canon. In the meantime, he continues to perform regularly alongside cabaret and comedy legend Mandy Goodhandy in their act, “Lady and the Rambler.”

www.mateochavezlewis.com
Twitter: @MChavezLewis
Instagram: @mateochavezlewis

Support Stageworthy
Patreon: patreon.com/stageworthypod
Tip Jar: tips.pinecast.com/jar/stageworthy

Transcript

Welcome to Stageworthy. I’m Phil Rickaby, the host of this podcast. You know, when I started the relaunch of Stageworthy after the hiatus, I wanted to do an essay at the start of every episode.

And for the last few episodes, I have done that. But the problem with essays is that they have to get written, and writing essays takes time. And since creating this podcast isn’t a full-time job, it isn’t even something that pays like a part-time job, that means that in order to create essays, I have to sacrifice other writing to get it done.

And since I can only get so much writing done in a day, given that I do have to work a day job, as much as I like writing those essays, I don’t like them enough to give up the other writing that I want to do. And there is a lot of it. I’m sketching out a novel.

I want to turn my audio drama from this last Christmas into a play and maybe eventually a film. And at the same time, I’m working on the audio drama for this next holiday season. And while I’m doing that, I’m writing down ideas for a fringe show, provided I get into one of the fringe festivals I’ve applied to.

So there’s a lot of work that I want to be doing, but writing the essays takes a lot more time than I would like. I mean, it seemed like a good idea at the time, but it isn’t something that I can keep up, especially if I want to get any other writing done. If I had more time, I could do it, but I have to be realistic with my time.

So I’m going to stop doing essays in every episode. I will do them now and then when I have something to say, but I’m not going to be doing them every episode. If you enjoy Stageworthy, please rate the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

And if you listen on Apple Podcasts, you can also leave a review. Ratings and reviews do help new people to find the show. If you want to keep up with what’s going on with Stageworthy and my other projects, you can subscribe to my newsletter by going to philrickabee.com slash subscribe.

If you want to leave a tip for the show, you can drop some change in the virtual tip jar. I will put a link to that in the show notes. I also have a Patreon in support of this show.

Stageworthy is a one person operation. So not only do I arrange the guests, edit the show, promote the show, create the music, I also shoulder all the financial responsibilities for keeping the show going. So your support would mean the world.

For a monthly subscription of $5, I will take you behind the scenes on the podcast, do regular Q&A sessions, even present regular exclusive content for subscribers. You can find the Patreon at patreon.com slash stageworthypod. Remember, you can find Stageworthy on Twitter and Instagram at stageworthypod.

And you can find the website with the archive of all episodes at stageworthypodcast.com. If you want to find me, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickabee. And as I mentioned, my website is philrickabee.com. My guest this week is Mateo Lewis. Mateo is a young singer, songwriter, actor and pianist based in Toronto.

At the start of the pandemic, he created and produced Quarantine Songs, a song cycle about different characters dealing with the pandemic with singers from some of Canada’s biggest stages. He also posts regularly to his YouTube channel where he provides weekly analysis videos of some of the greatest songs from the musical theatre canon. Mateo is passionate about musical theatre and he knows his stuff.

I hope you enjoy this conversation in which both Mateo and I nerd out a little bit about musical theatre and talk about creation during the pandemic. Now one thing that I wanted to talk to you about is you wrote and produced Quarantine Songs and I want to get to that. Yeah.

But before do, I want to talk about the process of being creative during the pandemic. What were you, were you working on something when in March of 2020? March of 2020, I had just left school. I left halfway through my third year.

I was like, I’m going to start working in the industry. And you know, January, February 2020, I was doing it and I was accompanying people and working on some cabarets and, and rehearsing for like three or four different shows that were all going to happen in April. And wah-wah.

So it was kind of, it was, it was, it was a little bit of a, of a bummer because it was, well, a little bit of a bummer. It was a big bummer. But I was about to say that’s a bit of, that’s a bit of an understatement considering.

But especially, especially because it was like, I had just kind of started doing the thing full time that I had always wanted to do. And then all of a sudden I couldn’t do it anymore. Yeah.

So the timing was, was, was really painful on that. Yeah. But what, what did you, I mean, what did you do after that? Did you, were, did you just spend your time doom scrolling? Were you able to be productive or, cause I know for me, that the first six months of the pandemic was just, I was unable to do anything creative.

I, it’s interesting. I kind of had the opposite trajectory from a lot of people. I know most people, the pandemic hit and they instantly went, Oh my God, this sucks.

And they went into this like depression. And the first few months of the pandemic were the worst for them. And then, you know, it hit the six month mark and they were like, okay, how are we going to make this work? What are we going to do? And they, they, they kind of got back on their feet.

I had almost the exact opposite experience when it started. I was like, Oh my God, we have to do whatever we can do to make art during this time and to keep people happy. And we’re living through this like major historical event and we need to own the moment.

And, and that was, that was very much kind of how I was feeling. And you can imagine my friends were a little bit, a little bit annoyed by all of my, Oh my God, we should do this thing online and we should do that thing online. And can you record this song for me? And I’m working on this musical and, and just in my, in my spare time.

Cause cause that’s, that’s the thing is, is kind of what I do for fun. When I don’t know what to do with myself when I’m bored is I just like write songs and I sing and I don’t really know what else to do with myself in those moments. And, and so the first few months of the pandemic, I felt like a million bucks.

I said, listen, I’m going to take advantage of the time that I’ve been given to just be alone at home. I have, I was very lucky that I got to move back in with my parents at that point. So I didn’t have to worry about making rent, which was huge.

And so, and so I, I was locked up with my parents, which I mean was, was a struggle in itself, but I, I didn’t have to worry about getting a job and working through the pandemic. I just had time and space to do kind of whatever I wanted and go and go crazy creatively and get in shape and eat really well and take care of myself. And, and so I was really killing it.

And I, I just, I just kind of burnt out after a few months of doing that, right. When kind of everyone else was starting to find their rhythm and figure out how to create things in the pandemic in, in the way that worked for them. I, at that point kind of started to feel the burnout and it was fall of 2020.

That was really, really low for me and really difficult. I mean, there’s, I’ve, I’ve talking to people. I know there’s, there’s like the people who were like me who were like unable to do anything.

And then there’s other people who the pandemic hit and they said, well, we’re just going to have to make this work. And some of them were doing shows on zoom and they were creating stuff and they were, they were starting to get things happening and it was really exciting for them. And, you know, trying to figure out how to do digital production and what does that mean? While other people were like, well, if it’s digital, it’s not theatre and you know, all that sort of stuff.

But then I totally get that, like, especially if you were like motor and motor and motor and that the fall would have been particularly hard. Yeah. Yeah.

Because I get that, you know, we had the summer, summer was better. We were out in parks. Yeah.

We got to, we were outside, you know, we’re doing things outside. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the fall hit and we spiked again and it was back indoors and couldn’t do things and had to avoid people.

And to, to go from spring, have a summer of doing things. And then a fall where you’re like back inside, that’s, that’s like a bit too much of the elastic band snapping. I totally get it.

That’s what it is. It was the, it was the elastic band. It was the, this is over.

This is over. Uh, it’s not over. Yeah.

Cause I know, I don’t know about you, but when, when in, in the spring, in the spring of 2020, when we shut down the first time, uh, I was, I think a lot of us were like, you know what, you know, a month, two months, three months, we got this. And then it’s all going to be back to normal. That’s why, that’s why I was so optimistic about it too.

Cause I had, I just started really making, you know, friends and connections in the industry and spending my time working full time, doing the things I love to do, playing piano, singing, performing, acting, doing all of that stuff. And, and I thought, Oh my God, I get three months off, uh, to two weeks off to take care of myself and rest up. And then, uh, and, and, uh, you know, spend some time online on as part of the, in part of the social media, uh, world, you know, making and maintaining those, those connections and, and, uh, those friendships that I had started making in January, February, and then things are going to be back and I’m going to be like ready to go as soon as things open in June of 2020 and everything’s back to normal.

And then of course that, that didn’t happen. And I think, I think I, I really, I had a, I had an easier time in the beginning of the pandemic because I thought I saw a light at the end of the tunnel. And then when that light didn’t come, that’s when I really, really, uh, when, when it, when it really became bad for me.

And so that’s, that’s kind of what, what led to, uh, to quarantine songs because, um, I, I needed something to get me out of the gutter and working on that project was, was kind of what kept me afloat in, uh, in that, that fall. Well, I mean the, the issue with, with, um, that whole, you know, it was really, I think a lot of us were optimistic at the beginning. Yes.

Some people were like, the theaters are closed. We’re, they were doing digital forever because the theater’s never going to reopen. And I was like, what kind of like death knell are you, like, why are you ringing that bell of the death of theatre? Like there’s never been a pandemic before this closed down the theaters.

But also, um, I know, I, I think a lot of us were, were really positive at the beginning. Yes. Things were rough and yes, there things were tough, but you know, um, we, we were certain we were going to get through it.

We were looking at the numbers every day because we were waiting to see that, that, that dip, but also kind of doom scrolling through all of our social media feeds and all of that sort of thing. And then, yeah, then here we still are. Yeah.

Yeah. I think, I think that, I think though, that now with like the Omicron and everything, I think most people, um, and this isn’t everybody, but I, I believe that most people have figured out their ways of coping that work for them because we’ve been through it so many times. Yeah.

And so I’m not, I’m not feeling from the, from the community and from my friends in general, I’m not feeling as much of a death now as I was feeling, you know, in, in 2020. Yeah. I think we’ve all kind of figured out how to maintain a little bit more of that optimism because we need to, you know, in order to, to keep ourselves sane.

Yeah. I think the, the, the real difficulty is the fact that, you know, we’ve, we sort of, uh, flirted with opening theaters in the fall and then suddenly plans had to fall by the wayside and things like that. It’s just sort of like a tease, but we’re also like, I know I felt this, like, yes, Omicron was, was very, um, contagious and all that sort of thing.

But also there was like this hope of like, you know, they say that it’s, if you’re vaccinated, it’s not that bad and all that sort of thing. And maybe that’s, uh, something that we can look forward to. Maybe this is like the end.

Also, I was kind of hoping that, um, that, you know, on Netflix, Tiger King sort of brought us into the pandemic. They had a sequel to Tiger King and that would take us out, but that kind of poetic symmetry doesn’t really happen in real life. So that’s sad.

Uh, if only, if only, if only, but at what point did you start, uh, composing the songs for quarantine songs and, and, and when did you sort of figure out that this was going to be a project that you were going to produce? You know, it’s interesting. I started it right on like March 14th of 2020. I started it right away.

I wrote the first like two or three ideas for songs. Um, only I’m pretty sure only one of which ended up in the final project. Um, but I started it right away.

Cause I just knew that I, I knew that this was a really important moment and that people were feeling a lot of things and there were a lot of stories happening and everyone was sharing their experiences with the pandemic. And there were a lot of, there was a lot of doom and gloom. And I felt that there was also a lot of joy.

There were a lot of people coming up with their, you know, sourdough starters and taking the time to, um, to get in shape and work on themselves or return to a hobby that they hadn’t found time for in 10 years. There was a lot of good that was coming from it as well, not to, not to negate the, the awful things that were happening and, and how, uh, how miserable we all were. Um, but I, I wanted to shine a light on the, the positives that were coming from it because there was so much light already being shone on the negatives.

And so I started writing about, uh, like I wrote one song called the short of breath song, which was about, uh, a guy who is in love with this girl and they have zoom meetings. And every time she pops up on zoom, he gets shortness of breath and he, and he thinks he has Corona virus, but really he’s just in love. Um, so that was, that was the first one that I wrote.

Um, and, and, uh, uh, it kind of became a, a hobby of mine, you know, every day in the, in the beginning of the pandemic, I would wake up early and make myself my little coffee and go walk down to the beach and, and, uh, and write songs in my head, staring out at the water and then come home and write them all down. And I, I, I wrote like 20, 30 little ideas for songs. Um, and then I, I never really did anything with it for, for a number of months.

And I only returned to it in kind of the, the tail end of the summer and the beginning of the fall of 2020. Um, when I, when I really needed a project to, to keep me going and something that could be produced digitally without, um, without sacrificing its integrity, I felt a lot of, a lot of, I didn’t want to do zoom theatre. That was just trying to put in-person theatre online.

I wanted to do something that, that was made to be online and took full advantage of the medium that it was being created for. Um, because there’s, there’s things that online, you know, digital born work is able to do that, that, uh, a little bit more like what film is able to do, um, that the medium of in-person theatre can’t do. And so instead of trying to force zoom theatre to look like in-person theatre, I wanted to be able to create something that, that could only be done online.

And so I came up with this idea of doing these weekly songs. So every week I would release one song and I started doing that, I think on, uh, like near the end of October, I released kind of the, the opening number, uh, of, of the, the song series. And then every week throughout the fall up until mid December was, was the last song.

Um, and I released them like every Wednesday night, I had a little premiere on YouTube for each song and that, that kind of, it kept me going to know that every week I had a video to edit. Uh, so I had something to do that was worth doing. And also it, I, I know, I feel like it kept a lot of people in the community going to, to be able to look forward to a little piece of theatre with some familiar faces appearing on, uh, on, on the YouTubes, you know, once, once a week.

Yeah. There’s definitely something about having a deadline that is very motivating. And of course, you know, sometimes it’s a deadline that you set for yourself, right? Um, and it’s hard, you know, deadline you set for yourself.

Sometimes that’s, you know, you’re like, Oh, I can miss it this week. I always feel like the important thing is to make a deadline for yourself that has consequences. If you don’t do it like, Oh, I told people that this was going to be ready on Wednesday nights and I’m scheduled to be on YouTube live and to do this premiere.

So I have to do it. I can’t, I can’t, I can’t miss it, which means that you have to get it done somehow. Which means that you have to get out of bed, even when you feel miserable and you feel like the world is falling apart and forcing yourself to get out of bed when you feel down in the dumps in, in my experience, best medicine, if you’re going to just lie in your bed, you’re gonna, you’re gonna end up feeling worse.

And so giving yourself a good reason to get out of bed when everything is dark and you feel like there’s no point giving yourself something. And it can be something as silly as a bunch of songs that you pulled out of your bum in the middle of a pandemic. But as long as you’ve got something to get you out of bed, it’s, it’s so just good for the mental health.

And it’s, it’s something anybody can do for themselves when they’re going through a hard time is, is give yourself something to do to get out of bed for, even if it’s something silly. Yeah. As far as the digital production goes, you know, being on putting this stuff on YouTube, what was your proficiency like with that? Were you, were you already doing stuff on YouTube? Or was this a, cause I know a lot of people, they figured this stuff out.

They, they, they didn’t know anything. And if you’d asked them a year ago, before the pandemic started, they would be like, I could never do anything with a computer. And then they learned that they could and they learned because they had to, but what was at the start of the pandemic? What did you know? What was your experience of, of, of digital? Like, I mean, I had a, I had a YouTube channel.

I’ve had a YouTube channel since I was in college and I would just like post every so often, you know, a video analyzing a different song from the musical theatre cannon. And that was my, my shtick that I did on YouTube, but I would just like, kind of put prop up my camera and just press record and then record it all through in one long take. And then just hit upload.

There wasn’t a lot of editing and, and, and video editing and digital production that went into that. So when the, when the, when the pandemic started, I really, I got myself like a, a, a fancy like Mac computer and I got myself logic, the, the sound production software. And I started playing with that and teaching myself how to, how to like orchestrate and mix in, in a very kind of basic capacity.

And that was, that was actually, I found harder than editing the video. The video, you could just kind of like click chop, chop and, and put it all together. And if you didn’t want to do anything too fancy, you know, iMovie is pretty straightforward and it’s pretty easy to use and with enough hours, it’s kind of anybody can pick it up.

But logic was learning how to, how to produce the sound so that the, the, the recordings of the audio of the music could sound the way I wanted them to. That was actually much more of a challenge for me to, to learn. Well, there’s, I mean, you know, like, like you said, in something like an iMovie editing is super easy, you know, adding a whole bunch of stuff.

When I was doing my first Christmas audio drama, I wasn’t sure how I was going to put that together. And so I just like, you know, the layers of sound and putting all that stuff together, like to get it, you have to work to get the sounds the way you want them. And that was just in audacity, which is a very simple audio editor, whereas something like logic is like a, is like an audio production suite, which is a lot more.

So were you, did you, were you watching tutorials online? Were you reading manuals or were you just fumbling away to figure it out? Oh yeah, no, no, no. There is a tutorial on YouTube for anything you could possibly want to learn, anything in the world. That is one of the great things about YouTube is there is, there is a tutorial for everything.

There’s, there’s, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of, uh, of confusing stuff that, that people just upload and it’s not, it’s not very clear and it messes you up. But, but if you parse through that stuff, there’s a lot of gems on YouTube. So I pretty much learned everything I know about audio engineering and stuff from, from free just videos watching on YouTube.

And then I also, I got a free trial for, there’s this website called Skillshare, which I don’t know if you’ve heard of it. They, they, they promoted a lot on YouTube. I get a lot of advertisements for it on YouTube.

Um, but it’s, uh, it’s, uh, specifically for sharing online courses and kind of anybody who wants to can upload an online course of whatever subject they want and it gets like vetted by their, um, by their kind of people, their, their committee or whatever. And, uh, and if it meets the standards, then it gets uploaded. So, you know, you’re getting like good, uh, like fact checked, um, clearly communicated courses and, and it’s like something like a hundred something bucks for the year long subscription, but you can also just get a free trial.

So that’s what I did. I got a, I got a free trial for a month and watched a bunch of logic stuff. And, uh, and then suddenly I was like, okay, at sound production, God bless free trials.

God bless free trials. Yeah. Um, and so you, you, you did all that.

How did you, I mean, you had, when you were producing this, you had people performing it from, from Stratford, the Mervis stages, Charlottetown festival. Um, yeah. How did you, how did you get those people? Did you approach them? What was that process? The great thing about the, well, in some ways it’s a great thing for me, it’s a great thing.

Um, about the pandemic is that a lot of really amazing people didn’t have anything to do. And so it was the, it was like the, the best time in history for reaching out to people that you’ve admired for ages and chatting with them. And so many of those people who are like doing the thing that you want to do.

So many of them want to be really generous with their time and they want to nurture the next generation of, of artists. Um, because obviously they’re all fantastic people or, or they wouldn’t be where they are. Uh, but, but they don’t have that time 99% of the time.

And so it was really lucky that this, this period of time when, you know, Charlotte Moore didn’t have a contract, I got to send Charlotte a message and say, Hey, like we’ve met once or twice, but here’s a song. And I think it would sound really good in your voice. Would you like to sing it? And suddenly I’m working with Charlotte Moore and working with her on a song I wrote, like the, I can’t express to you how much I learned from that.

And, and Charlotte, Charlotte and I are like great friends. Now we go out for coffee and it’s just cause I, I on a whim kind of sent her this message. I think the fascinating thing that you sort of like discovered and you found is, is, is the fact that, that, that, and this is one of the most important lessons that anybody in the industry and in most industries I think could learn is that people actually do want to help you.

Yeah. And all you have to do is, is ask. And if you ask is reasonable, if you know, if you’re like, Hey, write this show for me, nobody’s going to say yes to that.

But like, if you’re, if you’re just like, I have questions about, about your career, about working at X or anything like that, nine times out of 10, if they’re available, they will make time because they want to help. People like coffee, people like cocktails. If you offer to buy somebody one, they will, they will chat with you.

And the, the amount that I’ve learned just from, just from buying someone a coffee and chatting with them and, and, and it’s, it’s, it’s a really scary thing to send somebody you really look up to a message and say, Hey, you don’t know me, but I want to do what you’re doing. Can you talk to me about your experience? Can you talk to me about your philosophies about the art and, and the way that you’re, the way that you think and the way your brain works to create the things you create? It’s, it’s a really scary thing to do that, but it almost always pays off. And then sometimes they’re like, no, sorry, I can’t, I’m busy.

And that’s fine. That it’s, it’s still not, it’s still not actually embarrassing. Nobody, nobody judges you.

And you, you think they’re going to be like, Oh, this, this dumb kid doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but, but they, they don’t. So if you’re, if you’re listening and you’re just like starting out, or you want to start out in any industry, like send somebody a message who wants to do who, who who’s doing what you want to do and, and offer to buy them a coffee and just chat with them. And you will learn so much, you know, fascinating thing is it doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to be just starting out.

If there’s somebody that you’ve always wanted to have a conversation with, like, it doesn’t matter if you’re starting out or if you’ve been working for a while and you, you just want to know what they know, ask, because like, like, like we’re saying people do want to help. And if they don’t have time, they don’t have time because they’re busy. And some people are really busy.

Um, I think a lot of times we, the fear of, of, of what you’re talking about is that fear that, that like, they are going to go this stupid piece of shit. Who are they to approach me? But there’s two things to keep in mind. First off, the majority of the people in this industry are not like that.

And they’re happy to talk and they’re happy to share their knowledge. And second, if they are like that, they didn’t have anything to offer you in the first place. Mm hmm.

Jerks. But, but sometimes they’re busy and that’s, and that’s fine. But yeah, it’s, it’s true what you say, actually.

I, I, uh, yeah, I take, I take that back. I really, I really believe in the, in the like beginners mindset and in the everyone’s always learning ideology. So if, if, uh, yeah, I, I don’t think you ever, you ever know enough and you can’t learn from someone else.

And, uh, and Hey, if, if you’re listening and you’re, and you are one of these people who are very accomplished in your field, um, and someone asked to buy you a coffee, maybe, maybe you can also learn something from them. Who knows? Well, this is the thing is I think that, that if you’re interested in people and as people who’d make theatre and make art, we almost always are to some level interested in people. Somebody might, might come to you and say, I’ve never written a song before.

How do I go about it? But there is probably something that they know that you don’t know. And, or at least, even if it’s like, Oh, what, what theatre school did you go to? How was that? Like, yeah, you can find out things just by having these conversations. And so it’s not going to be a one way thing because like I said, we’re, we’re all interested in other people.

Plus, if you get a cocktail out of it for free, that’s, I mean, coffee, whatever it is, like just, I, you, I mean, the best thing is that you’re going to learn something and both of you may learn something. One of the other things is you, you, you have on your YouTube channel, you don’t just post the songs that you’ve created. You do like an analysis of songs from musical theatre.

How long have you been doing that for? Yeah, I started doing it in college which was, I think I started five, five years ago with an analysis of what baking can do from Waitress. And I just kind of like put up a camera in my dorm room at Sheridan and just blabbed at it for, for 20 minutes and put it online and, and hoped people would give a shit what I had to say. And apparently they did because that video has like a bunch of views now, like 50,000 or something, I think at the last, at the last count.

So every so often, you know, when I, when I felt the impulse or when I wasn’t doing anything, I would record another one of those kinds of videos. I did like some, some Jason Robert Brown songs, some Sondheim songs. And then I, I, I did a few in the, in the fall of the pandemic leading up to quarantine songs.

I did three or four in a row. And, uh, but I never really did consistent uploads until just, just recently, I think September of 2021, I started doing every Saturday, I made a commitment. I was like, every Saturday, I’m going to post something on YouTube, um, either an analysis video or a breakdown of, uh, of, uh, uh, the structure of musicals in general.

I, I have a little segment on the show, a little series called to build a show where I talk about the staple musical numbers that you can find in almost every musical, you know, the opening number, the I want number, the act one finale, and how each one of those works to serve the story and what makes a good one and, and what makes an effective one. Um, and then, and then just like little, little random bits and bobs about like how to keep your voice healthy, how to get an agent, should you get an agent, things like that about, about the, the industry so that hopefully people who are like young, young performers who are, who are, uh, you know, really, really interested in, in learning about kind of the basics of the industry as well, but don’t really know where to start. Um, have this, this YouTube channel where, like I said, you, you can find tutorials about anything on YouTube, even, uh, how to get started in musical theatre in Canada, apparently now.

Well, I mean what you started describing about, about this, this thing, there’s, there’s a bit of a cottage industry of like podcasts that like delve into a particular song and like deconstruct it strong song, song exploded, that sort of thing. But I don’t know that I’ve heard something that does that in depth about, uh, musical theatre songs and like deconstructs them in that way. Maybe there is because everything that’s already been done already exists, but, um, I haven’t encountered that.

Um, what, when you’re deconstructing a song, like, like how are you like, how does that look? What do you, what are you talking about? What are you looking at in the song? So it’ll generally start with, I’ll start playing through the song and I will pause when something interesting happens in the, in the music. And that can be a note that doesn’t fit in the key signature. And what feeling does that create? Why did the composer choose to put that note, which isn’t in the key signature instead of a note that you might expect to hear? And, you know, what are the lyrics doing? Is there anything in the lyrics that you might not observe on a first listen, but like the details of the rhymes and the, the metaphors and the motifs, like how does this song connect to another song? So things like that.

Um, the, the little details that we, we pick up on subliminally when we’re listening to a song, but we don’t really think about in, in specific conscious detail. Uh, I try to kind of highlight those things about, cause good songwriters will almost always put little things in their music, like a little, a little mel, melody in the piano line that resembles a melody from a song earlier in the musical. And what does that mean that that character is hearing the melody from that song they’ve heard before at this moment? What does that tell us about this moment? Things, things like that.

Um, yeah. And like music theory, jargon to like, Oh, they’re going from a two minor to a five major. And then you would think they would go to the one, but they go to the six minor.

Whoa, things like that. And I, and I kind of explain, um, that stuff. So it becomes kind of a music theory basics course as well as we go through it.

Um, and, and more than anything, just what are the, what are the techniques that these composers are using to tell a story through music? Hmm. What, what are those little details that they’re putting in to tell the story? That’s, that’s my big, my big soap box that I’m already stand on music theatre, nerding out time. Okay.

All right. Let’s do this because, um, I, so musical theatre and cast albums were my gateway into theatre. When I was a kid, those were the things like I heard these cause back in the day, like musical theatre, that was just like records.

People had them all the time. My parents had a few and then eventually I realized, Oh, there’s a story here. And so that was the thing that drew me in.

So the musical theatre nerd question that I have for you is, can you name your favourite opening number? There are so many good ones. I, I, what I say on my YouTube channel is that an opening number should do three things. It should, it should set up the world of the show.

Um, it should set up the tone that we’re going to be using to tell the story. So if, if this is a comedy, the opening number should be a comedy. Um, and if this is dramatic, then the opening number should be dramatic.

It should give us a flavour of what to expect. Um, and then it should set up some, something else. Go watch the video.

I forget what, I forget what the third one is. Um, but I think that, uh, one opening number that does all of that really, really well is, uh, well, a classic example is comedy tonight from a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. And there’s a, there’s a fun little story about that because Stephen Sondheim, who, uh, who recently passed away, obviously the giant of musical theatre, he wrote the music and the lyrics for that show.

And when they initially wrote the show, there was a song that opened the show called love is in the air. And it was this cutesy little, uh, soft shoe number that went love is in the air. Do, do, do, do, do.

And then it went into this uproarious, ridiculous comedy and audiences hated the show. Critics panned the show, gave it terrible reviews, said it’s not funny. And the people who wrote the show, uh, Sondheim included were like, what the heck what’s going on? What’s, what’s wrong.

And so they talked to, I think it was Jerome Robbins, but I may, I may, I may be, uh, misattributing this, but they talked to some show doctor person who they really respected. And they were like, Jerome or whoever, what’s wrong with our show? And Jerome said, your opening number sucks. Your opening number makes everybody think they’re going to watch a romance.

And then they watch like a really stupid, crude, crass comedy. So you have to write an opening number that’s going to tell them this is a comedy. And so Sondheim was a little bit, a little bit miffed at that.

He said, Oh, you don’t like my opening number. Fine. I’ll go, I’ll go write you an opening number that tells you it’s a comedy.

And so he wrote a song called comedy tonight. And the show was a hit because if, if you, if you set up in the opening number, um, there’s a, there’s a quote in Jack Viertel’s book, uh, the secret life of the American musical, which is a great book on the way that musical theatre is structured. Um, and if I think, I think it’s actually Jack Viertel’s quote, but he may be quoting somebody else.

I, I, I’m not sure, but he says when the curtains go up, the audience is in trouble. And it’s true. Musical theatre is such a, a sensory overload.

There’s a stage, there’s lights, there’s costumes, there’s an orchestra blaring. There are people singing high B flats, like it’s, it’s overwhelming. And so if you don’t make it clear to the audience, who’s what, what’s where, how they’re supposed to feel about this and how they’re supposed to respond and, and tell them what part of their brain to use, to engage with the material, tell them how to engage with what you’re about to show them.

They’re going to just be super overwhelmed and confused at the whole time. That’s what makes musical theatre so hard. And why you have to be so much more clear in your writing when you’re writing a musical than in any other medium, I think, because the, the, the medium itself is so overwhelming that if you don’t, if you don’t communicate your story and your intention super clearly, your audience is going to, the intention and the story is going to get drowned out by all the bells and whistles, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

I’m going to share with you a couple of opening numbers that I quite love. I’m excited. The opening number from Heather’s, beautiful.

Okay. Yeah. It does everything that you need it to do.

In fact, it even deviates from the movie. Because it takes you through what that movie doesn’t do is tell you how did, how did Veronica Sawyer end up with the Heathers? Yes. The movie just, just automatically ends up with like, she’s here and she’s like the one there, their whipping post or whatever.

And that’s that, that song, that opening number sets up the high school. It sets up who Veronica is. It sets up who the Heather is and then pushes Heather and the Heathers, the Heathers and Veronica together.

And that sort of launches the story into where it’s going. And it also kind of doubles as an, I want song for Veronica because it’s nine and a half freaking minutes long, but also you get to watch the protagonist belt their face off singing about their hopes and dreams and, and the way that they see the world and the way that they contrast the world that they’re in. And it sets up all of that, all of the conflict, everything, which is usually, usually takes a few numbers for people to set that up.

You know, in, in wicked, for example, we have no one mourns the wicked, which sets up this really kind of judgmental, scary world of munchkins. And then we have the wizard and I, which introduces us to this wide eyed, optimistic green girl who we’ve instantly fall in love with in Heathers. They do, they accomplish both of those goals, setting up the world and setting up the protagonist.

They accomplish both of those goals in one song. Yeah, absolutely. Another musical that I think does something similar is my favourite year.

The song 20 million people does something very similar and introduces, not like totally sets up the world of the TV show that, that, that the character is in, it sets, it tells you exactly who he is, what he wants and who he is and who he’s not. It tells you everything you need to know about that world before it’s disrupted. When the big movie star comes in later on.

Right. And what you say, like before, before the world is disrupted, right, like before the inciting incident, quote unquote, that’s, that’s important because then we get the, I want number of, of larger than life, which comes after the inciting incident. When, when he knows that Alan Swan is going to be coming to the station.

And it’s, it’s the same in, in Wicked, the inciting incident is that Elphaba gets told that she’s going to meet the wizard. And so she sings this song about when I meet the wizard. So it’s after the inciting incident.

And so in that sense, I think maybe there’s an argument, there’s an argument to be made that fight for me in Heathers is really the, the, I want number that happens after the inciting incident. Yeah. But if we want to talk about, I want numbers, I mean, there’s, there’s also a trope where there’s sometimes two, I want numbers, one that happens before the inciting incident, which is a general want.

And one that happens after the inciting incident, which is a specific want West side story. We have some things coming general want, don’t know what it is. Then we have inciting incident, Tony meets Maria.

Then we have the song Maria. Now there’s a very specific want same with dear Evan Hansen. We have waving through a window.

I want to be seen. I want to be connected general want. Then the inciting incident, we find the suicide note, quote unquote, suicide note.

And then we have the second, I want number, which is for forever, which is, I want to be a part of this family. Yeah. There’s, I think that sometimes people who don’t see a lot of musicals get stuck in the idea that it’s too formulaic, but the formulas quote unquote formulas exist for a reason.

Cause they helped to take you on a journey. They, as you were describing the, that moment before the inciting incident, that’s like right out of the hero’s journey. Oh yeah.

Oh yeah. It’s been around for millennia. Absolutely.

But I think sometimes people get, people think of bad musicals that, that stick so closely to the formula that you can telegraph where they’re going a mile away. This is an, I want number. I want this thing.

I want this thing. Yeah. Yon news.

But I, I, I always preach, you know, that to, to those people, I always say, I mean, my, my, my big thing is that musical theatre is overwhelming. It’s, it’s a lot of energy coming at you. And so the fact that there are kind of formulas to follow means that the audience doesn’t have to be so overwhelmed by information and they can be overwhelmed by the spectacle a little bit more of people singing and acting and dancing.

And then if you’re in just a play where the only thing on stage is the characters talking is a little bit less overwhelming to the senses. So you can afford to break story structures a little bit more, but when you have so much coming in and I mean, the other thing too, is the audience pays 200, 300, $3,000 for a ticket to see it once, right? So they can’t miss anything. And that’s why the, that’s why the, the quote unquote formulas are important because we, we want the audience to already kind of know what they’re in for and then surprise them along the way.

Cause that’s the other thing is if you set up the formula and then you break the formula, that’s the real, that’s the real fun stuff. Cause the audience thinks they know what’s coming next. Cause you’ve been following the formula so far and then you surprise them.

Yes. That’s the fun stuff. I find there’s this, there’s, you know, there’s, there are those people out there who are like, I don’t like musicals and they’re along the lines of the same people that I think quote unquote don’t like theatre.

Like they saw a bad musical once and now they’ve convinced themselves they don’t like musicals. But the, the, I think the, the difference is, and in some ways there’s so much coming at you, like you said, in a musical that, um, the, it can be overwhelming, but it does carry the emotions in a way because music is a language that we feel in our bodies. And whereas, you know, language we’ve, we sort of in our heads and it can be more difficult to evoke emotion through language.

Whereas music is just something that if you play the right note, we know what that is. That’s the thing. Music songs in particular words and music together, they, they have this combined superpower because the words convey information and then the music conveys emotion and the music, the way that music affects us really, I think is that it sets up an expectation.

And then when that expectation isn’t met, when it doesn’t go exactly the way you expected it to go, the difference between your expectation and then what you actually hear, you, you feel that viscerally it’s a, it’s a physical surprise. It’s like a jump scare. It’s, it’s not, it’s not intellectual.

It’s a visceral response. And to combine that with, with words that can intellectually communicate thought and story, it’s, it’s just this perfect combination of head and heart. It’s, it’s really, it’s really powerful and it’s, and it’s really unique in its power.

But I mean, if you don’t, if it’s not your thing that is also totally fine. I don’t judge people at all who are like, I don’t like musicals and I’m like, yeah, they’re a lot. They are a lot.

They are a lot. And, and, and especially if you haven’t seen a good one. And if you know people who are like, Oh, you got to see this show.

You got to see this show. And you’re like, look guys, I just don’t like it when they sing. That’s fine too.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have to just accept everyone sings in this world.

Yes. I mean, sometimes, sometimes that can be difficult. And yet, the strange thing is, is that when we’re children, it is understood that in movies, people sing.

Well, and I mean, depending on who you are in like, I’m a, I’m a grown adult and I break out into song every day. So yeah, but there, there it’s, it’s interesting to think about that, that transition that, that when we were children, most of the films that we watched involved songs and musicals and things like that. Many of the TV shows that we watched had songs.

And then we get to a certain age and we’re like, we’re not singing anymore. Well, all these, all these children’s shows like Sesame Street, you know, Cocomelon is, is one of the new ones. These shows are designed for like kids who are so young, they can’t even talk yet.

And it’s all music, because there’s something about rhythm and, and sound and pitch that it’s just hardwired into our DNA to respond to a consistent rhythmic pulse. And it helps kids learn like it’s, it’s been scientifically proven a trillion billion times that, you know, playing music for your kids makes them literally just smarter. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s pretty incredible.

The, the power that music has on our, on our brains. And it’s a little bit disappointing that in, in, in Western culture, you know, in, in like settler Canadian American culture, it is very, um, there’s a missed opportunity for the use of music throughout our lives. But in other cultures, it’s not that way.

There are many cultures in which music is an integral part of the culture from birth to the grave. And I think the West, I mean, the West has a lot to learn, but I think the West can learn a lot from those cultures and their relationship to music. Yeah.

But even more, I think there’s something that we do in North America, which is to discount theatre and the arts. Whereas if you go to Europe, mentioned on another show, coworker of mine lives and works in, in Berlin and to them, people of Berlin, they like theatre is just a thing. And there’s all these subsidies that the companies use to provide affordable tickets to everybody.

And the idea that theatre would be something for the elite is ridiculous in, in, in, in these countries, even in England where, you know, community theatre and the amateur musicals or the amateur theatricals, that’s a respected thing. People get involved and it’s important. And, and, and theatre is a thing.

Whereas in North America, we see it as, as, as a frivolous thing and not important at all. And it’s, I don’t know why we do that. It’s, I don’t know, it’s capitalism.

I think it’s, it’s the, it’s the, well, if I’m not working towards making more money actively in this moment, then I’m wasting my time. So why would I waste my time, you know, listening to music and doing things that like feel good and fuel my soul when I could use the same money to buy a whatever app or whatever device that’s gonna make me make more money and blah, blah, blah. And it’s, it’s, there’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s, there’s a lack of connection to, to the soul and to spirituality in general, in, in like colonial Western culture.

Sure. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s one of many reasons that, that I, I think that the, the, the changes that are happening in the, the kind of the, the attempt to dismantle some of the systemic supremacy of the colonial Western models of the world are those, those things are happening. And it’s, and it’s why I’m excited for those changes is, is partially because of the, the way that the West treats emotion in general.

As, as, as somebody who’s of, of, of Latin descent, who’s, who’s, who’s your, you, I know that your mother is from Chile. That’s music is, I think, more of a part of the community of, of expression in, in that culture. How, what has that meant to you as a creator? It’s, it’s really, I don’t know.

I think, I think that music was always played in my house and my parents always valued music a lot. And they put me in music lessons when I was very, very young, which is the only reason that I can do any of the things I can do today. Because it’s the kind of thing that like, like I’ve just, it’s, it’s, it’s my mother tongue.

You know, I, I speak the language of music better than I speak the language of English or the, you know, I, I, I just understand it so innately. And that’s because I, I was always surrounded by and it was always valued. And, and my parents are, neither one of them is even remotely a musician.

They’re, they’re both like math, science professors. My dad works at Ontario Tech University. My mom works at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health.

She runs the MRI machines and takes pictures of people’s brains. Like they, they met getting their degrees in physics at McGill. Like, this is not a, these are not musical people, quote unquote, but they’ve still found a value for music in their lives.

And they shared that with me. And I kind of took it to the next level and made it my, my career path. But you don’t have to make it your career path in order to appreciate it.

You don’t have to be a musician in order to get so much out of experiencing live music, experiencing recorded music, experiencing live theatre, getting yourself a guitar and learning how to play three basic chords. Like that basic, basic access to music is, is so therapeutic. And it is so scientifically proven to be good for you, for the soul and for the spirit and for your, for your mental health, which affects your physical health.

It’s, it’s just, it’s so important. And, and I don’t think, I think we need to get rid of the attitude that you have to monetize something or be a professional at something in order to make it worthwhile. Because then we can get rid of the idea that music is just for the elite.

Yes. Or just for the people who make a living doing it. Like you should be able to just sort of play.

Listen, you could do a lot with three chords. Punk rock has shown us that for sure. Oh yeah.

Lin-Manuel Miranda showed us that. If you don’t talk about Bruno, three chords in that song. Stay tuned for my analysis.

If we don’t talk about Bruno on my YouTube channel. As somebody who’s been writing songs for, for a while, do you feel like you are working up to a musical? Is that something you have in you? Oh yeah. Oh my God.

Definitely. I, I’m going to, I’m going to write musicals. I, I, I write musicals by accident sometimes.

I just like, it’s just, I just think in terms of it, cause I’ve been surrounded by it so much. It’s the language I speak. Um, I, I put on a, uh, a musical in the fringe a few years ago called Boys Don’t Cry.

Yeah. And, um, I’ve, I’ve written, I mean, when I was, I was when, when Rob Ford was the mayor of Toronto, I must’ve been 13 or 14. And I got some of my friends from my high school together and we recorded, uh, uh, a concept album for a musical I wrote called Rob Ford the Musical.

And, um, so it’s always been something that I’ve aspired to and something I’ve, I’ve tried to do. And, and I’ve learned a lot about, about what it takes to do it because, like I said, because musical theatre is so sensory and you have to be so clear and so specific with your writing of it, you can’t roll out of bed and write what you feel and have it be a good musical. Whereas some songwriters are just born with this like innate feeling for, Oh, maybe I could do this.

This would be cool. Or maybe I could do that. And there’s a little bit less of a, of a structure and a technique to it.

But with musical theatre, it’s, it’s much, much harder to do well and to connect to an audience. If you don’t know the techniques and the skills and everything. And I’ve been spending a lot of my time cause I’m a nerd researching all that stuff and sharing what I learned on my YouTube channel.

So, so I feel, I feel prepared for the moment when the perfect story comes across my table and I say, that’s it. I’m going to, I’m going to take a month off work and write this musical. Nice.

That’s going to happen. It’s going to happen soon. I have no doubt.

I have no doubt. Mateo, thank you so much for talking with me today. This has been, there’s been a lot of fun.

Thank you, Phil. It was so nice nerding out with you.