Sandi Becker

Sandi Becker is a professional stage manager who has been working all over Canada for nearly 20 years. She has worked on shows varying from school tours for kindergarteners to operas to horror/magic/puppet extravaganzas to Shakespeare. Sandi has recently started a collaboration on a podcast called “Chewing Scenery”, a humorously angry look at theatre as portrayed in the movies.

Listen to Chewing Scenery: https://anchor.fm/chewing-scenery

Transcript

Welcome to episode 292 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.

Thank you for listening. If you’ve enjoyed listening to Stageworthy and you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider rating the podcast with five stars. If you’re so inclined, you can also leave a review.

Your ratings and reviews help new people to find this show. And if you think that you know someone that you think will like Stageworthy, tell them about it. Some of my favourite podcasts became my favourites because someone I knew told me about them.

And remember, you can find and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere you get podcasts. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at StageworthyPod, and you can find the website with the archive of all 292 episodes at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you want to drop me a line, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickaby, and my website is philrickaby.com. My guest this week is stage manager and now one of the hosts of the podcast Chewing Scenery, Sandy Becker. Chewing Scenery is a podcast in which two stage managers ruin all your favourite movies about theatre by picking apart their inaccuracies.

It is hilarious and wonderful. I mean, I kind of want to jump in on your new podcast Chewing Scenery. Okay.

And now in that podcast, why don’t you describe what Chewing Scenery is for me? Okay. Well, our intro is the podcast where two professional stage managers ruin your favourite movies about film and TV by picking apart their inaccuracies. Because I was watching, well, any movie that has theatre in it ever.

And I get increasingly frustrated because how does nobody on the film know how theatre works? And they never do. And it’s always laughably stupid. And so I posted something on Facebook about it.

I was just like, what, like, how is this? I get where they don’t know, where like, show business people don’t know how surgery works, or they don’t know how a trial necessarily works. Like, obviously, there’s things like this in with every portrayal of every career. But presumably, like, there’s a lot of crossover.

So probably somebody on your film has worked on a play at some point and knows that the stage manager is not playing cards in the wing during the show. You know, so it just it was, it’s very frustrating to me. So then and I got like, an insane response is the most comments I’ve gotten on anything I’ve ever posted on Facebook.

So people obviously were with me. And, and then Katarina Sekirko, who is another stage manager, a friend of mine, was like, yeah, I really like podcasts. And I really want to do a podcast, we should make this podcast.

And so we’ve been recording, we’ve only released two so far, but we’ve recorded a lot. I mean, I’m just gonna say that having a bunch in the bank is super smart. Totally.

Trust me on that you would lose your mind. Like I started to panic if I get down to like, just three episodes in the bank, right? If I get down to one, I’m going to lose my mind. Because if I’m going week to week, I will never I will never have peace of mind.

I will just it’s just too stressful. So it’s good to have things scheduled out. We find it well, we also are having and I mean, like I say we, Kat is doing all the editing and all the because she is much more technically minded than I am.

And that’s the part that she’s more interested in. So she’s doing, like hand to God way more work than I’m doing. And I worry about her because I don’t want to have this big backlog of editing for her to do because that would stress me out.

But we have no schedule yet. We’re just like putting them out when we have time. So yeah, but so we’ve recorded a bunch and we’re working on editing our third one.

And it’s really fun. It’s just nice to in a place and time when we don’t have theatre jobs to go to, it’s nice to have a room to talk about it. Yeah.

Now on the topic of the whole, like, why do they get these things so wrong? My own theory is that everybody who most of the people who are on that on that show, know that it’s all wrong. Well, they must. They just don’t care.

I guess. They just assume that the people who are watching the theatre, people, whatever, who cares about them? What are they? They’re just, they just assume that everybody else is stupid. Yeah.

But like, that’s the part that if they have to make changes for, like, to move their plot along faster or that kind of stuff doesn’t bother me as much. There’s a lot of like, you know, to make it more dramatic, to make it more fun. Like the first episode that we did was on the movie Center Stage, which I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but it’s.

I was, I was forced to watch Center Stage a number of years ago. I’m so sorry. And it’s, it’s by somebody who loves the film, genuinely understanding that it’s terrible.

But, you know, in that, in the end, I was just, my mouth was on the floor. My jaw was basically in my chest just being like, this is all impossible and stupid. Yeah.

Yeah. But like, I can, but again, like a lot of the things that were stupid about it made the plot move further. Like, like it’s insane that somebody would replace somebody else in the show without anyone knowing about it.

And yes, that’s completely ridiculous, but I understand that that was necessary for the plot, but it does, it’s not necessary for the plot for say when two people have to have a chat in the wing for them to be visible to the audience, like that kind of stuff. Two seconds, like be like step two steps further back so that it’s conceivable that the people in the boxes can’t see you having this heated conversation. Like those little stupid things would not affect your film at all.

And it would make my head not explode. But it’s, it’s, you know, I, you’re totally right. I get those moments where they’re doing stuff.

That’s basically essentially magic. And you could never do that in a theatre for real, but because this is film and we have to make it a little bit more quote unquote, exciting for an audience that isn’t watching it actually on stage. We have to cheat that way, but you’re right.

Things like the stage manager playing cards. Yeah. And that one we have, that’s, that’s from a movie called our friend.

That is a fairly recent film. And that’s what sort of triggered it. Like I’ve had these moments a lot watching a lot of movies.

The one there, the one that we are recording tomorrow is a film called opening night. It’s on Netflix. Don’t watch it.

If you value your sanity at all, just don’t watch this movie because your head will explode. But our friend is there’s this, these group of friends and they met doing a play together. And in one instance, the two of them are having a conversation.

She’s an actor in the show and he’s on the crew and they’re having a conversation and during rehearsal and he’s operating the follow spot and then cut to the performance and he’s watching from the wing. And I was like, who is operating the fall spot? So angry. It’s infuriating to me.

It’s like, that’s what, what is happening? And that’s an over his shoulder. You can see the stage manager sitting at a card table with a bunch of people playing poker. I’m like, there is a play happening guys.

Is anybody working on the book? It’s inexcusable. I really don’t get how, like, again, like these are things I think that somebody thinks that shit’s really funny. And then wouldn’t it be funny if the stage manager was playing cards and somebody was like, yeah, sure.

Whatever. And that’s what they do. And then the rest of us are just left to scratch our heads.

Yeah. I just don’t, I don’t understand how it adds anything to the film. It’s like, and it’s always, it’s not just theatre things.

It’s watching movies. It’s things like, um, like things will pull me out of movies that like empty coffee cup acting. Oh God.

Oh my God. It makes me so crazy when I’m watching a TV show or a film or anything like that. And it is so obvious that that paper cup has nothing in it.

It’s so clear. It has a lid on it. Why don’t you just put water in it? Because you can’t act like it’s full.

So why don’t you make it full? Even, even if it’s, if there’s no lid, like I don’t care, like put something in there. We know how to carry stuff. Yeah.

You know, but every time you put an empty cup in somebody’s hand on TV, they’re waving it around like it’s empty because it is. It’s like all of these actors who’ve never held a coffee cup before. Like, and, and suitcase, same with suitcases, like weight your suitcases down guys.

It just looks stupid. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely.

Those are, those are, those are things that, that always, always, always, always take me out of a film. Yeah. Um, but also when I see films and this is, you know, I’m sure that, that, that you would cover that you’ll be covering this kind of thing.

It was like a film about a movie that gets things wrong about a movie, like things in a movie where you would not accept that in the movie that you’re shooting. Yeah. Yeah.

That’s even weirder because all of those people work in movies, but we probably won’t be covering that to be honest, because neither of us work in film. So qualified to comment on the same way. But, uh, yeah, no, that it’s just, it’s just bananas to me that like, yeah.

Yeah. Is there a film, like as, as far as all of the films that you could cover, and I’m sure that some of these are really hurting your brain just to have to sit through and other ones you’re like being taken out of it for a second. Is there a film that’s on your list? That’s like, this is the pinnacle of everything that we’re going to discuss.

Is there, is there one film that stands out opening night? Okay. I don’t want to spoil our podcast episode too much, because we haven’t even recorded it yet. But this movie, I watched it last year, it was recommended to me by my very good friend, Melanie McNeil.

I was living in my sister’s house, nannying her kids because I was at work. And what I wasted an evening after the kids went to bed, and I needed some alone time. And so Melanie said, watch this movie, your head will explode.

And so I watched the movie, and my head very nearly flew off my body. Four minutes into the movie, I was screaming. It’s a nightmare.

I am so goddamn curious about this movie now. You’ve warned me not to watch it, but in the same breath, you told me I have to. I know, I know.

You have to watch it, but watch it with a support animal or something. It’s just, yeah, the quintessential quote, and it happens in the first two minutes of the movie, so I’m not really spoiling anything, is one of our background dancers called in sick, call Wicked, and have them send over one of their spares. What? Okay, okay.

And they’re just giving people the impression that this is what happens in theatre. Like, it’s obviously, it’s all over the top, and the movie itself, I don’t know what the movie’s trying to be. It’s trying to be a bit of a send-up, because the play that they’re doing is objectively terrible, and like, obviously, they’re playing it for laughs, and like, this is a terrible show, but like, it just doesn’t, it’s so completely wrong.

Everything about it is so wrong, and you’re following the main character, who I think is supposed to be the stage manager, but I have no, like, I’ve looked it up online to try and figure out what his job is. He only has a name in the credits, so it doesn’t, it’s Topher Grace, and he’s playing this guy who wears a Fresnel. Like, it just doesn’t make any sense at all.

His job is super ambiguous. Sometimes he’s walking around holding a Fresnel, and then sometimes he’s calling cues, but only for like, a minute, and then he can just wander around backstage during the show, not doing anything. There’s a thing that’s gonna be like, if somebody’s like, calling cues, and they’re like, oh, I gotta go, and they walk off, it’s just like, you don’t get to leave.

No, you finish the show. The lights are, what’s happening with the lights on stage right now? Yeah. Are there any films that come to mind where they got it right? I think, I’d have to watch it again, but I remember when I watched Birdman.

I was just thinking about Birdman. I had to take breaks because it was too real. I remember having to pause the film because there is an encounter between a, I don’t know if it’s a stage manager or director, and an actor that was very fraught and very tense, and I have had that conversation with an actor before, and it was a little bit, it was a bit triggery, so I had to turn it off and take a break.

Yeah, I definitely remember Birdman being the kind of film where I was like, okay, somebody was paying attention at theatre class, because this is too close. Yeah, for sure. But it’s been a long time since I’ve seen it.

I know the movie itself is very fantastical, and obviously people flying and stuff, but I feel like it’s a pretty decent portrayal of what goes on in a theatre. In many ways. It might be one of the closest.

You’re probably right there. Yeah. Other than that, I can’t really think of a lot offhand, because they’re all pretty bad.

Yeah, we did 42nd Street. That was something else too, but that was, when it’s in black and white, you can forgive so much more. I don’t know why, but the older the movie, the more I can forgive.

Huh. That’s kind of funny, is because in many ways, those people were closer to theatre than some of the people who were making movies. That’s true.

That’s true. Yeah, but also, I don’t know what was going on in theatres in the 30s. Maybe people were showing up to auditions in fur coats and monocles and carrying dogs, maybe, but it seemed silly to me.

I need to believe that they were. I hope so. I need to believe that somebody like an Ethel Merman or somebody of that stature was arriving in a fur coat with her dog and all of that stuff.

Absolutely. I need it. Sure.

Great. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyway. As far as this being a podcast, is there, aside from watching some of these terrible movies and finding out that a lot of people have the same reaction to you and that, had you considered a podcast before or who brought up the idea of doing this as a podcast? The podcast was my idea, but it’s sort of half joking in this Facebook status. I need to make a podcast to talk about this.

It was sort of a combination of, I listened to some very nerdy rewatch podcasts. There’s one of Beverly Hills 90210 that I enjoy very much called Again With This. I find that really funny.

I’d also seen, there’s YouTube videos of doctors watching ER and telling you what’s all wrong with it. That was sort of floating around in my brain, but again, it was all just sort of a joke because I didn’t think I actually had the follow through to do a podcast. That’s where lovely Katarina Sekirko comes in because she has all the follow through.

She’s the one who’s actually making it happen. I guess it was my idea, but it was sort of half joking. Now, were you a big listener of podcasts previously or was that? I wouldn’t say a big listener of podcasts.

There are a few that I really love. I listen to the My Dad Wrote A Porno and those ones, but that’s pretty much it. You can’t really go wrong with My Dad Wrote A Porno.

I listened to the first season, but now I think it’s so off. I think you have to pay for those episodes now, but it was just so out there. I’ve been sort of waiting to see if more were coming and there’s not been any more coming out.

I don’t know if Rocky stopped writing or what is happening. Maybe Rocky Flintstone did stop writing. It’s hard to know.

Hard to know. I recommended that to people and ruined their lives. A friend of mine laughed so hard he dropped his keys down a sewer grate one day.

Okay. I was going to say, I don’t think that you could ruin somebody’s life, but that could at least ruin their day. Yeah.

Yeah. I was like, oh, sorry. Now, do you think that, ultimately, there’s only so many movies about theatre? You would think.

You would think. We have a long list. Okay.

Approximately, could you ballpark what number you have? Oh, man. We’re upwards of 50 for sure. And that includes some TV shows.

Okay. Because I was going to ask about TV shows too. Yeah.

I really want to do an episode where we follow Joey Tribbiani’s acting career through Friends. Oh my God. In 90210, there’s an arc where Bren does in a play that I would really like to look at.

So yeah. And we’ve talked about the Streetcar Named Desire episode of The Simpsons. Obviously.

Yeah. So there’s a few TV shows in there too. Nice.

Nice. Because I was going to ask about Slings and Arrows. That’s another one that might be too hard to do because that one also quite accurate.

Oh, yeah. I know. That feels a little less ridiculous.

There’s less to pick apart because they do it right. There is less to pick apart, but in some ways it might be worth sitting in this shit to talk about, yep, nope, yep. I’m sorry, but yes, that’s true.

Yeah. The other problem with Slings and Arrows is that so far we’ve tried fairly hard not to name names in the industry. And Slings and Arrows, there are so many characters on that show who are based on real people.

And it’s pretty clear to me who they’re based on. I think it’s pretty clear to most of us who they’re based on. That’s the thing.

Yeah. But I know if other people outside the industry are listening, I don’t necessarily want to out people. I don’t think they would care.

I mean, everybody who’s in the industry already knows. Yeah. Now, this is sort of like, you know, you’ve been a stage manager for quite some time.

We talked quite a while ago about a production you were working on with Eldritch Theatre. You were in the room when I talked to Dylan Trowbridge about every… Brilliant thing. Every brilliant thing.

Thank you. I was going to say wonderful thing, but you know, brains. Every brilliant thing.

I think you piped in a couple of times there. And so as a stage manager, you’ve been pretty busy over the years. How has this whole pandemic situation impacted you, aside from the fact not working? How are you getting through it? Um, it’s been… I’m amazed at how not crazy I’ve gone.

I really thought I would have… If you had asked me two years ago, okay, you’re going to be out of work for 15 straight months and not able to do anything, how would you be? I would have assumed that I would be in a deep depression, unable to function, like I really thought. But I’m actually all right. Things are going okay.

I spent the first five months of it living with my sister and taking care of her kids. And that was a challenge. Wonderful.

They’re adorable children, but they were three and five at the time. And I’m not a parent. And it’s a lot to be thrown into full time as it was 40 hours a week.

And then I lived there. So it was not really just 40 hours a week. And yeah, so that was quite an adventure.

And after five months of that, they hired somebody and I left because it was too much. But then once I got back after the couple of weeks of really, really enjoying the solitude, you know, then I did all the things that everybody else did at the beginning of the pandemic, where I like, tried baking things. And I don’t, you know, all the projects.

And I’ve, you know, tried to learn German, all this stuff. All the make busy stuff that everybody tried. All the busy work.

And then now I’ve just sort of settled into this silly little routine of just like, it’s very, I feel like an 85 year old retired woman, you know, like I do a crossword puzzle every day. And I like, go for a walk after lunch and all that stuff. But I’m not struggling as much as I thought it would be.

I don’t miss theatre actively until, you know, somebody posts a picture of the opening night of Come From Away in Australia. And then I look at it and I cry for two hours like that. Those moments, but I don’t think about it every day where I’m like, Oh my god, I have to get back to work right now.

So yeah, so apparently, I could retire and I’d be all right. Well, one of the questions that I have for you is, is, as far as as, you know, previous to this, you know, before all of that, were you like, were you on the go constantly? Is this is this like a moment for breath that you didn’t quite have pre pandemic? I guess so. Yeah, I tried to think like, I think my longest stretch of unemployment before this was three months of unemployment.

And that was years ago. I’ve been pretty, my work has been quite steady. I get two weeks off here and there, which is a great little refresh, like, refresh button for me.

But yeah, I’ve been working quite steadily for a very long time. So this was, yeah, I mean, the circumstances in which it happened, obviously not welcome. But the break itself has is not a terrible thing.

And I’m really I’m lucky that I’m in a good position. I was in a reasonable enough position financially that I didn’t have to get, you know, a grocery store job or something else. Sure.

I do think that there is something about about this time that is in some ways educational for a lot of us, because a lot of people have been on a treadmill of of hustling and and going constantly for however long they’ve been in the business. I know people who’ve worked like four jobs and every evening they’re out to some networking thing or some cold read thing and stuff like that. And it’s constant, constant, constant.

And the opportunity, I guess, in all of this, in this forced pause is the opportunity to learn what it feels like to stop. Yeah. To think about taking care of yourself.

Yeah. And I think a lot of people are struggling with not maybe struggling, maybe discovering whatever. But I don’t think it’s just it’s just theatre people, but I think theatre people more than some with our work is our identity in a lot of ways.

Oh, yeah. And so to figure out who you are without the work is a big deal. Sure.

That’s huge. And for a lot of people, if you ask them, you know, describe yourself, the first thing they will say is, I’m an actor, I’m a director of a playwright. That’s the first thing out of their mouth.

Yeah. Yeah. And that comes from that comes from having a job where you spend so much of your time not working for the money.

Right. Yeah. But also, it’s the same.

Oh, bankers probably have have a situation where they’re defined by their wealth. But like, yes. Yeah.

It’s just a weird it’s it’s a weird situation to be in that I don’t think anyone expected. And no, it’s a reckoning for a lot of people. But that whole the whole like that is identity that comes.

I think that starts like, you know, the first time that you start you start thinking that you’re going to be an actor. That’s what you tell everybody. Right.

And then because you spend so much time, like you said, doing it for the love of it, that that it becomes who you are. And I was talking a little while ago with with a couple of actors who who are trying to come to terms with who are they and is is it worth staying in the business? Like if it could all go away like this so quickly, is it worth staying in the business? And and and who are they if they don’t? And all this of these big questions? Yeah. Yeah.

And a lot of people, because they’re finding for financial reasons that they can’t afford to wait this out and they are pivoting to, oh, I hate the word pivot, but they’re, you know, switching careers and can they be as satisfied doing something else? And if they can be, oh, more power to them. Good for them. Holy cow.

I think that’s a big that’s a big change, though, because I think a lot of people who who might be considering that switch worry about, oh, but what if I what if I like that other job? Like, I like it, but I love this. Right. But if I like that and I like the money, what does that mean? Oh, I know I did apply for one or two jobs like office jobs that I didn’t even get interviews for.

But I had I had those moments of just like, I’m going to hate this job, but I’m not going to hate the weekends. I’m not going to hate the money. Yeah.

And I’m not like I’m not going to hate the ability to live above ground. And that’s my only real ambition in life is to live above the ground. I want to graduate from Fraggle to regular Muppet.

That’s like all I care about. You know, I recently did that. I recently graduated from from Fraggle to Muppet.

And and it’s living above ground is a is a whole new world. Oh, as the Fraggles would say, living in outer space, that’s something special, man. I know I it’s the only thing I don’t like about my apartment is that it’s below ground.

One day you two could be uncle travelling, man. One day, one day. It’s going to take a little bit of financial recovery after this year to get there.

Yeah. But I mean, that’s that’s that’s the thing is is like for me years ago, I decided that I was going to find a job. I needed to.

And I didn’t not like the money. But then you have to go through a period of time adjusting and like figuring out, can I still be artistic? Can I still be an artist? Can I still create work while also having a job? Right. And that can be a very difficult balance to strike, especially since a lot of jobs will let you put in a lot of time.

If you don’t if you don’t erect boundaries around your work, they’ll allow you. Oh, yeah. I mean, well, look where we come from.

Like, I don’t think any industry has that problem more than theatre. No. Well, you know, it’s funny because I know a lot of people in in a lot of industries like they will celebrate the people who put in those extra hours.

Oh, yeah. In the office. Like, oh, Brenda and Tom, they worked until nine o’clock every night last week.

Let’s give them a hand in sales. They made those sales and they worked until nine o’clock, 12 hour days, you guys. That’s that’s a capitalism problem.

Yeah. But that sends the message that that’s what’s expected, even though they could never ask you to do that. For sure.

For sure. But exhaustion is a badge of honour. Yes.

Yes. But, you know, that’s a toxic, toxic situation. One hundred percent.

One hundred percent. And you have to if you’re going to go that route, you have to learn how to build fences around your work life and everything else. Now, we talked a long time ago about about, you know, what drew you to stage management.

But for those who who aren’t going to go back and listen to that episode, because it was a couple hundred episodes ago, would what was it that that made you want to be a stage manager? It was a little bit well, it was a little bit of a reimagining of career goals already, because I my initial plan was to be an actor. And that was not to be. And I’m very, very glad that that didn’t turn out to be my life.

But yeah, I it was like a little community theatre thing attached to I was at York University and I auditioned for the show and they said, we don’t have a part for you, but we need a stage manager. And I said, OK, what’s that? And they and I just sort of was thrust into this position and it was really hard. And by the end of it, I was like, oh, no, but I can do this.

And I mean, it didn’t immediately just I didn’t immediately switch and go, OK, stage management forever. But it sort of crept into the back of my mind is, oh, that’s a job that I can do and I’m decent at. And and then as it just as things progressed and that was the first professional job I got was I guess I mean, Port Stanley and it just sort of kept happening.

And it’s yeah, it’s just better. It’s a better circumstance for me because I can’t imagine having been an actor and been able to say to you that for the last 10 years, I’ve only had three months of unemployment in a row like that’s insane. So this is clearly the better path as far as stability goes.

And and and I’m the work I find the work incredibly rewarding. And I’m sort of a caretaker by nature. I’m very I’ve actually we did a special episode of the podcast where we talked about what the heck is a stage manager anyway, just in case people didn’t know.

And and we had this conversation of it’s really problematic for me to say. And I hate saying it, but I’ve I have a fairly maternal personality, hmm, but I don’t want children. And so it fulfills something in me.

Stage management fulfills a caretaker thing that is in me that I don’t want to dedicate to 18 years of my life raising kids. So yeah, I was I was trying to explain to somebody because the people I work with, they don’t they’re not theatre people. And so it’s a mystery to them, whatever this is.

I happen to mention a stage manager and they were like, well, what is that? Right. And the first thing that I said was, well, the stage manager is God. Yes, the director is the boss and the producer pays your bills, but they’re not around all the time.

But the stage manager says that is gospel. That’s a hard thing to that’s a hard thing to live up to, though. People say that all the time.

And I’m like, I would like the buck not to stop with me. I know you would. But a lot of times as a stage manager, that’s kind of where it happens.

Yeah. I mean, sometimes stage managers end up inadvertently being like a tour manager or all of these extra things because it’s got to get done. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s a weird it’s a hard job to explain.

And I I was upset when they re-released the Muppet show on Disney Plus because I watched it and I went I used to tell people I was Scooter and Scooter’s not stage manager, Kermit is. No, Kermit’s a stage manager. Kermit’s a stage manager slash host.

Scooter is just a gopher. I know. But I always thought because he was always the one who said how much time there was.

And that’s something to to look at in my podcast is how is every single episode. He’s like Gilda Radner, 30 seconds to curtain. It’s like, why are you where’s the five minute call? What do you mean, 30 seconds? Well, then I hope that I hope that the Muppets are on your list.

They are. But that’s another one’s going to be really hard to. It’s too ridiculous.

It’s too and it’s purposely ridiculous. Like, yes, it is. Yes, it’s a little bit harder to.

I’ve thought about it and I also love it so much that I would have a hard time criticizing it in any way. But I mean, you could just talk about how that was wildly, wildly racist. But that’s another issue.

I mean, fortunately, the the Disney Plus ones put a warning in front of the ones that are OK, but they do. But oh, this is such a weird tangent. But they do.

But they’re confusing which episodes because some episodes they had the warning and I looked for the racism and couldn’t find it. And then some episodes they didn’t have the warning and I went, holy crap, they should have had the warning. Oh, OK.

So there’s one hosted by Spike Milligan that I it should have gone wherever they sent Song of the South because that should never be seen by humans again. It was appalling. Oh, I can’t believe they put that on there.

They should have said that. They should have because they got rid of the song of the South. Yeah, they got rid of a couple.

There was one that was hosted by somebody who was later like became a sex criminal or was right. They took that one out and I think there’s another one that they got rid of. But this one needed to go to because it’s horrifying.

Anyway, I mean, if you were going to give up a show, at least if you were, you could probably dissect how how the hell does that backstage area work? We could try. You could give it a shot. It might be a short episode, but you could give it a shot.

Yeah, we could try. I just how did Kermit wind up being the producer, the director, the host and the stage manager all in one shot for the same reason that those old musicals are like, my dad’s got a barn. Yeah, let’s put on a show.

And he just like fell into all the things. I guess so. But like they rent it from that guy.

There’s a guy who owns Scooter’s Uncle owns a theatre. How do they how can they afford the rent? Like, I don’t understand how any of this works, but no, you’re right. I don’t understand how any of that works because their audience doesn’t look that big.

It’s often quite half empty. Who knows how any of that actually works? I don’t know what the finances of Muppet Theatre is. Yeah, I don’t know.

They’re always talking about how it’s very funny. I watched the whole thing recently. They’re always talking about how much petty cash they have, and it’s always like $12.

That’s amazing. I’m sure there’s a lot of people in indie theatre who were like, what we could do with $12. Yeah, yeah.

Now, I would be remiss if I did not talk about Eldritch Theatre. Sure. Because I’m a huge fan.

And you do a lot of work with Eldritch Theatre. I do. Um, how did you how did you fall in with that merry band of monsters? Uh, how indeed I, I’d worked with Eric on a show, Eric Woolfe, who is the who is Eldritch Theatre.

Um, I worked with him on an unrelated show. He is just a puppeteer and actor on this other show. And we toured together and we got on really well.

And then he lost his stage manager, she left the business, I believe. And that and his designer, Melanie McNeil, is also a friend of mine who I’d worked with in other places. And I think they had a conversation and they everybody sort of my name came up from like a few different directions.

And they went, Okay, and so he just Facebook messaged me he didn’t even wasn’t even a real email. He just sent me a DM was like, Hey, what are you doing? And I it was, it was one gig that turned into I’m guess I’m the resident stage manager there if that such a thing exists now. Um, and yeah, and I actually have thought about that this year.

Whereas if I had to give up all the theatre, how could I find a job where I could do something full time and take off the month of November to just do Eric shows because I don’t think I could give that up. Because it’s the best gig in the world. I mean, I’m I mean, one of the reasons I there’s a number of reasons why I, I, I am a big fan of Eric Woolfef and Elkridge theatre, but a lot of it is first off, doing genre well, is really rare in the theatre.

And to pull off these strange, essentially magic tricks, like hour long or longer magic tricks, right? Of, of, of, of immersing you in a world is is quite impressive to do. And the fact that his audience, he’s got that magical thing of many of his audience members, or in fact, I think the majority of his audience members are not people who normally go to the theatre. Yes, definitely the majority.

That’s the only the only time working for him is the only shows where I do an opening night and I don’t recognize a single person in the audience. That’s it’s unbelievably rare. He’s got this weird, yeah, they’re called the cabal.

And like, there’s, yeah, it’s, it’s spectacular. I often, I, I think, you know, sometimes I’ve said, I actually do a masterclass in, in, in audience retention, because, you know, that audience is really devoted and because they’re not usually theatre people. But I also think that, that that masterclass might be boiled down to just do things that people want to see.

Imagine that, hey? Yeah. Yeah. Do plays that are fun to watch.

And yes, yeah, yeah, that’s part of it. And, and do something that nobody else is doing. Like, I think, well, that’s absolutely right.

You can’t get what he does anywhere else. There’s nobody else who can do, there’s nobody else who can do what he does, which is part of the thing is that like, he complains sometimes that no, he, a bunch of his plays are published and nobody else ever produces them. And I’m like, well, find somebody else who can do magic tricks and be a puppeteer and perform the, perform this genre in a way that isn’t mockery of the genre and like, like find somebody else who understands and can pull that off.

I dare you. I mean, there’s gotta be somebody, but, but the problem is like, they’re, they’re, it’s a rare combination of talents. Yeah.

Yeah. And find a team, like, you know, the rest of us aren’t necessarily coming either. So like, yeah.

So find, find a designer who knows the aesthetic, find a, you know, a stage manager who knows how the magic tricks work, find like that kind of stuff is, it’s, it’s a lot, it’s a lot to pull off. So. I have a question about knowing how the magic tricks work.

Not to, not to reveal anything. That’s not the purpose of my question. My question is, do you feel like your enjoyment is robbed by knowing how the magic tricks work? Uh, well, some of them, I don’t still know how they work.

Um, I it’s a need to know basis sort of thing where if there’s something I have to be watching for, then I learn and repetition, I sort of figure some of the principles out, but I still don’t a hundred percent know how he does most of them. Um, and it’s when that enjoyment, the, the, Oh my God, how did you do that? Enjoyment gets taken away. It’s replaced by another fun.

It’s a bit of a game for me to see if I can catch the thing where like, cause I, I, that’s part of my job is to keep an eye on. If he does, like there’s something specific that he does with his hand, but the audience is not supposed to see. And I catch it.

I I’m giving him notes on that. So, um, so that’s, it’s a, it’s a fun game for me to watch. And you know, if I managed to figure one out on my own, I’m very proud of myself.

So there’s that too. Um, that said, Oh, I shouldn’t say this. Oh, if Eric ever listens to this, he’s going to be so upset, but there’s a, um, there’s a movie, uh, called in and of itself that is a movie version of a play that’s been running off Broadway for quite some time, directed by Frank Oz, I think.

And, uh, it is sort of, it has a lot of the similar, like, it’s a, it’s a play that’s moved along by magic tricks. Um, and he, the guy in it does some of the same tricks that Eric does and not to disparage Eric, but this guy like leaps and bounds a better magician. I was watching it and like, I knew what he was doing.

I knew how he was doing it and I couldn’t see it. And I was like, like alone in my living room going, Holy shit. Is that just movie magic? He’s better at it.

Like what is it was within one shot. And like, there were things that, that’s like, I couldn’t, yeah. There’s like some tricks where I, nobody else can tell, but I can see the way, the way Eric moves his hands to do one thing and to pretend to do that thing.

If that makes sense. Like I can see the difference in his hands when he’s doing tricks or not. And this guy, I knew the trick was happening and I could not see what, what he was doing with his hands.

It was really, it was very impressive and very fun to watch. But now speaking of, of magic and movies, a lot of times when magic happens in movies, they cheat. Of course.

You know, they, you know, nobody actually learns the trick. They just cheat. Right.

And sometimes I don’t even know if these movies are on your list because they’re not quite theatre, they’re magic, but there’s a theatricality to it. The now you see me films are maddening because there is no goddamn way that any magician can do any of those tricks without the CGI. And how dare you try to convince me that they can.

Uh-huh. I, I don’t know that those movies are on our list because I don’t feel like we know enough about magic, but I can convince Eric to be a guest. You should probably have Eric on because I would, I would, I would, I would love to hear him rant.

Oh, would you? I don’t know. I would love to hear him rant about that, to be honest with you. Fair enough.

Yeah. Yeah. Listening.

That’s, that’s, I think that’s part of why this, if, if my podcast has any, our podcast has any appeal or not. But if it does have any appeal, I think something, there’s something really gleeful about listening to somebody who knows a lot about a thing, yell and scream about how other people don’t know a lot about the thing. Absolutely.

Absolutely. There’s, there is certainly something about, like, I was just listening. I think I’m maybe about halfway through the centre stage episode and just the, the gleeful frustration.

Cause I know you both love that film. Um, one of us loved it. One of you loves that film.

It’s ridiculous and terrible. And I can hear there’s almost a joy in like how bad the theatre world is in it. Yeah, no, it’s joyful.

That’s the, an opening night again is the, the epitome of that. That’s like the joyful rage. Um, how can they, they’re hurting the thing that I love.

Why, who hurt you opening night? Why did you do this? Yeah. It’s opening night. Okay.

I’m writing it down. Even though you’ve told me both don’t watch it, but also watch it. I’m just, I’m just trashing this movie.

And it’s like, I, I don’t know whose idea it was. I don’t know. It’s got names in it.

Like they’re, none of them are like Meryl Streep, but like, like it’s got people that you would recognize. There’s the Topher Grace is the lead and it’s got an Haitians in it. And Rob Riggle and, um, Taye Diggs is in it.

Like real actors, it’s just really bad. Yeah. They can’t all be winners.

No, but I just like, I wonder how those actors feel in that movie. Cause like Taye Diggs is a Broadway guy, right? Like he’s been in, he was, I think he was one of the original cast members of rent. Like he, yeah, he knows.

I think at a certain, I think at a certain point as an actor in one of those films, you have to, I think you just have to go, this is the film. Yeah. This is the movie.

I mean, I guess you just have to tell yourself in the world of this film, this is how theatre works. Yeah. Yeah.

And to be fair, he commits like he’s given her, but it’s not good. So if we were to go, if we were to go looking for chewing scenery, where would we find it? Uh, it’s on Apple podcasts on Spotify. It’s on all of the usual places.

Excellent. Yeah. There is another, I’ve discovered there was another podcast called chewing the scenery, but as I think about horror movies, that’s not us.

No, that’s not you’re chewing scenery. Yeah. Is there, is there a Twitter? Is there a website or no? We have not gotten that far yet.

We’re brand new. That’s all good. That’s all good.

Well, Sandy, thank you so much for talking to me. This has been a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.