Caroline Toal

Caroline Toal is an award winning actor and a graduate of George Brown Theatre School. Theatrically, Caroline has performed in Seattle, Montreal, Toronto, all across southern Ontario, and has originated roles for multiple new Canadian productions. Caroline has been nominated for six awards, winning Dora Mavor Moore awards for ‘Outstanding Ensemble’ in both Casimir and Caroline produced by The Howland Company in 2020 and for the world premiere of Selfie by Christine Quintana at Young People’s Theatre in 2018.

Caroline co-wrote Single Thread Theatre Company’s immersive production of Ambrose in 2015 and she is currently writing her first play, Survivors, supported by Studio 180 and Workman Arts. She is passionate about mental health awareness and the environment.

www.carolinetoal.com
Instagram: @toalbooth
Twitter: @caretoal

Transcript

Welcome to episode 286 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.

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And remember, you can find and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and everywhere you get podcasts. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at StageworthyPod, and you can find the website with the archive of all 286 episodes at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you want to drop me a line, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at philrickaby, and my website is philrickaby.com. On this episode, Toronto-based actor and writer Caroline Toal. Let’s start with your origin story.

What made you want to get into theatre? Well, I grew up in Orangeville, Ontario, and it’s a pretty artsy town, especially now. But even when I grew up, it was a much smaller population, but it was artsy even then. We have a professional theatre, Theatre Orangeville.

We have a pretty serious community theatre. Yeah, you could say that. Serious community theatre.

They do musicals. And through Orangeville Theatre, sorry, through Orangeville Theatre, they had a young company, and it was run by different people all the time, it was a summer camp. And this particular year that I auditioned was run by Pablo Feliciel Luna, who used to run Carousel, and now I think is the artistic director, I want to say somewhere out west, and I’m kicking myself for not knowing this.

But anyway, he’s a fabulous, amazing theatre practitioner. And I auditioned when I was like, I think I was 12. And we were doing The Hobbit, and I got in and he directed us and it was for the summer.

And he treated us like real actors, like he truly like we went through everything with objectives and all this and kind of learning that and being treated like a real actor when you’re 12 was a big deal for me. It was so cool. And I kind of fell in love with it that way.

Although I’d also been taken to like, my parents took me to like Mirvish and stuff when I was like, five, six, seven. I saw theatre then too. But I think the Orangeville Theatre young company really, really did it for me.

Was there, I mean, you mentioned going to see shows, was there something that sparked your interest in theatre? Or did your parents just say, well, maybe we should send her off to this Orangeville thing? Or how did you get drawn to that? I mean, oh my gosh, I don’t even know, to be honest. I mean, I know I asked to go, but I don’t know why. So I obviously was showing some interest in it, but I’m not really sure why, to be honest, to be completely honest.

I mean, there are some people who have a moment. They can very distinctly say, I went to the theatre, I saw this, and that was it. I knew that’s what I wanted to do.

I don’t remember that. As far as I can remember for myself, I was always making people put on plays with me. And I don’t even know how I knew what a play was, but I was always making people put on plays with me.

So it was always what I was going to do after, you know, policeman, astronaut, that sort of thing. But once the childhood, what are you going to do when you grow up thing sort of settled into actual stuff, it was pretty much always going to be theatre. Were you like an outgoing child? See, here’s the thing.

I am an introvert. And I’ve pretty much always been an introvert. That means that at home, when I was comfortable, yes, absolutely outgoing.

I talked a lot with the friends that came over. I would make things happen. I’d be like, all right, we’re going to do this play or whatever, but send me to school and I would be quiet and sort of keeping to myself in a lot of ways.

Yeah, I think same for me. Sounds the exact same as me, to be honest. Yeah.

And what was funny for me is that when I, you know, was a person getting out of theatre school and or even through theatre school and trying to get into the world, I thought, well, obviously, since I’m an actor, I am an extrovert. And I put, oh, I lied to myself for so long. Like, yeah, I feel like people do that because I don’t know, there’s an expectation that you’re supposed to be an extrovert or something because just because you’re in an entertainment job and because it’s kind of part of the job to like be able to talk to, not that as an introvert you can’t, but it’s kind of part of the job to be able to be social, which you totally can as an introvert, but it’s, I don’t know.

I always found that it’s like people, I think, confuse introvert with shy. Yeah. So they’re like, oh, how can you stand to get up on stage if you’re an introvert? And I’m like, no, I’m not shy.

Yeah. And I’ll be honest, I’m fine if there’s an audience. I can even improvise and like make stuff up and make it seem entertaining if there’s an audience.

But if it’s a room full of people and they’re like, listen, you have to go and talk to five people just to make sure that you’ve made this party worthwhile. I’m like, I’m just going to go home. Phil, me too.

I’m the exact same way. If I have to stand up in front of people as myself, I mean, if I had, I guess a speech that I was going to say, then maybe it’d be different, but if I’m just speaking off the cuff, oh my God, it’s nerve wracking for me. I also don’t feel like the most eloquent person.

I always, it’s so funny. Like I read so much and always have, and I feel like I should have this like huge vocabulary for the amount I have read, but I’ve always felt about myself that I’m not the most eloquent. So I think that’s also part of my fear of speaking in public as myself without a script.

I mean, it’s funny because the whole idea of being eloquent, it’s like, you can write eloquently, but you have to talk like a person. Sometimes we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, be like, no, I have to use a lot of big words and you don’t, because that’s sometimes a dick move. Yeah, true.

Now out of theatre school, first off, as far as choosing George Brown, did you audition for a number of other schools or did you know what school you wanted to go to? Yeah, no, I, okay. So in high school, I was truly choosing between going to theatre school or going into journalism and I chose theatre school and I auditioned and I knew nothing. I knew nothing about theatre school at all, or even training at all.

My teacher kind of pointed me in the direction of auditioning for NTS, Ryerson and George Brown. And I did all those and the only one that wanted me was George Brown. Bless you, George Brown.

Thanks so much. And so I went there because I didn’t get into the other two, but I only auditioned for three schools and that’s just because I wanted to stay in Ontario. I was also really young.

I was 17 when I went to George Brown. Oh shit. I know.

And then I turned 18 right at the beginning of school, obviously, but I, yeah, I was super young. I didn’t know what I was doing. Yeah, no.

I mean, I was 18, right? I was like, I remember, we are the head of acting when I was there was Peter Wilde and he would look at our entire class of 18 year olds and he’d just be I wish you were older. There’s a part of me that wishes I could go back now. Cause I actually really enjoyed theatre school.

I really loved the structure. I loved being able to work on my craft, if that’s not too nerdy to say every day. And I would go back, but I would go, I wish I could somehow go back yet be older.

Cause I think I would have gotten a lot more out of it, obviously. I know 100%. I would have got more out of it.

That said, I mean, I don’t know when you were in school, but they were still doing cuts when I was in theatre school. That was something became apparent at the first Christmas break. And from that point on, and because there would be people and I was one of them that was like, well, you’re just scraping through like, like, all right.

You walk into that, that, that, that interview and they’d be like, well, we’re going to cut you. Struggle to convince them to let you to stay. And they let you stay.

I spent the entire time in fear, but I also, as much as I want to go back, because I think I would get more out of it. I wouldn’t be this punk ass kid who is like, like, like fighting against what they were trying to teach me. But I think I would also have not accepted a lot of the bullshit.

You know what? That’s so true. Yeah. That part of it.

Yes. You’re right. There’s definitely parts of it that as an adult, he would be like, um, no, thanks.

No. Yeah, I know what you’re talking about. Yeah.

Um, when I want to, I want to like you, we’ve done a little bit of a little bit of, of chatting about your origin story, but there’s another origin story I want to talk about. And that’s, um, what was happening for you a year and a month ago, uh, when the pandemic started, what, what was your situation at that time? Right. Um, okay.

So right at the beginning of the great pause, God, I, okay. So I was, I had a gig and I was really excited about it. I was going to go to, um, do the Melville boys at the foster festival and cam Laurie, who I had just done a show with, um, the show that I just done in January of 2020, January, February was Casimir and Caroline and cam from that show was cast in the show as well.

And, um, we were going to go out to St. Catherine’s and do our show. And that was going to be this summer. And then at the beginning, you know, everything shut down and, you know, I heard talk of people’s gigs being gone.

And, and then of course that one, you know, was gone. So I was pretty bummed from that. And, uh, and then, Oh God, it’s so hard to talk about it.

Cause there’s so, cause I’ve had, I’ve gone through so many emotions. I’m sure as we all have, of course, through this whole thing that it’s like hard to remember exactly where I was. But I know the beginning of the pandemic, obviously I went into major anxiety mode because of the virus.

And because I was insanely afraid of it. Um, but also because of the, you know, being our industry being completely shut down. And I mostly work in theatre.

It’s like truly, I really don’t work that much in, in film and TV. So it’s mostly theatre. And that is, that is still pretty much gone.

It was really scary and made me kind of, yeah, go into, uh, a low-key depression, not even low-key depression. I think we have to be able to talk about that. I think that, that, you know, we can’t go through pretending like, Oh yeah, I just, you know, I kept doing projects and everything was fine.

I think we have to acknowledge that it’s been a difficult time. It’s been hella difficult. I, I would have anxiety dreams.

I’m not even joking every other night. And one night it would be like being chased by a dinosaur, but then the next night it would always be an anxiety acting dream. And I’ve had them pretty much this entire time for like a year and however long it’s been.

Um, and it w I would have anxiety acting dreams that, that a lot of us get, um, you know, not being, not going on stage, not remembering your lines or being locked out of the theatre or it was that all the time. And I was like, Oh man, I like, I knew I cared about theatre, but I really care about it. I really care about it.

I really miss it. Um, yeah, yeah. That was the beginning.

That was like the first. And then I went into major anxiety mode and kind of like to off put that I would work out vigour, vigourously, which wasn’t a bad thing. It was good, um, for me mentally.

And I started to like, be like, okay, well, what else can I do? What else I’ve got to be doing stuff or else, you know, I can’t just sit around cause I’m going to start feeling really bad. Can I swear on this podcast? Yeah, you can okay. I was, yeah, I’m gonna, you know, I was kind of went into like not manic mode, but a little bit more like, Oh, well I gotta, I gotta do stuff.

So I started taking, um, classes, which were really great. I took Haley McGee’s, um, quarantine challenge. I think that’s what it’s called.

And that was really, really fun. And it was just a, doing a short commitment of like writing every day for a certain amount of time. And then about half, like six months in, I took through ghostlight theatre, they were offering free classes and I took, I was lucky enough to get chosen.

I don’t know how they chose, but I was lucky enough to get chosen to do, um, a playwriting one Oh one course with Aaron shields. And that I’m so grateful for that class because it was a long period of time. It was like over, I think like seven weeks, like one class a week.

And it got me into writing, which truly has kept me going through this because I really haven’t worked like in 2020 I, I worked, I think maybe five days total. And it was, it was rough like that. It’s still a little rough, but at least I have better kind of coping mechanisms, I think, question mark, I’m hoping now.

So for you writing is, is really new. Yeah. Well, I’ve been writing all my life.

I’ve always, when I was a kid, I wanted, like, I wanted to be a writer. That was what I wanted to do. And I always wrote stories.

I would always be writing like fan fiction when I got older and stuff. Um, but, and I was always writing in journals, but until recently, like maybe the last five years, I kind of stopped journaling and I didn’t write as much for pleasure. Um, and then through the quarantine has got, I’ve gotten more into it.

And I wrote, I wrote my first play, um, during this time, which has been great. And it’s been like a struggle, but it has, it’s like the only thing that’s kept me going. So yeah.

Uh, I felt like I had to do it out of necessity more than like, oh, I’ve got to create something to further my career. It was like, no, I got to just like, put my artistic need into something. So I’ve gotten back into writing, which I really love.

Yeah. Yeah. No writing is, is, I mean, as far as like, you know, it can be both wonderful and torturous.

Um, it goes, it has those cycles and sometimes at the same time I’ve had moments of, of just being completely unable to, to write anything. And then other times of like, oh no, no, I can write something and it may not last long, but at least I wrote something. Yeah.

Totally. Totally. Um, and I kind of like, like, I don’t know, there’s something about those, like, there’s something about the struggle of writing that I really like.

I don’t know why, cause it’s really hard and you one day read your stuff and you’re like, this is absolute trash. What am I doing? And then another time you read it and you’re like, okay, it’s not that bad. It’s not that bad, but I kind of, I don’t know, there’s something about it that I really love, but I guess it goes without saying that also, like the reason I started writing during this time too, is because I needed agency over something.

I needed agency over something and that, and writing is such a good way for like, especially actors to just, even if it was in quarantine, even if we didn’t have this virus, it’s such a good thing to do because you are, you can, you, you don’t have to rely on anyone else, which is litreally the whole part of our, it’s like a lot of our job, which is really, which is something I struggle with. It’s always, you know, it seems like someone else is the gatekeeper of your career. That’s certainly true, which is why, you know, self-producing becomes attractive to a lot of people and that sort of thing.

And, and, and writing sometimes goes hand in hand with that. Now, having, having started to write this play, do you feel like that’s something, oh, first off, sorry, I lost my entire train of thought. I’m just taking a note to remind myself that I lost my train of thought, train of thought.

This play, does it have a title? It does. It’s called Survivors. I got two grants.

Another thing I’m really, so I’m proud of myself for writing the play because I’m the kind of person who starts stuff and, or sorry, I should correct, I’m going to correct myself. I was the kind of person who would start things and end them because it was too hard. I could do it all the time or have like tons of ideas for things, like creative things, and then would start it and be like, I can’t do this.

I can’t do this. This is too much. And I would get overwhelmed and stop.

And this is truly the first thing self-produced, like self-generated that I’ve finished. I mean, I’m only on my second draft, but I’ve finished those drafts and I’m really proud of myself. But another thing I’m really proud of myself for is grant writing.

I did, I wrote my first grants to get money to write this. And I got, and I ended up getting two grants and big shout out to Aaron Jan, who is amazing. And he like hopped on a Zoom call with me and I like threw him a small amount of money for all his wonderful information.

And he’s like the reason I got grants. So if anyone’s asking you, yeah. So yeah, I got some grants from Studio 180 and Workman Arts.

And that was so cool because I was like, wow, someone actually like maybe cares and thinks this is like cool or like worth something. That’s neat. So yeah, it’s called Survivors.

And it’s, do you want to know what it’s about? Sure. Please tell me. Okay.

So it is the story of two sisters who are kind of like low-key estranged at the time the play begins. Their mother has died suddenly by suicide. And so they go back to the house that they grew up in to stay there and try to figure out kind of how to go on and to deal with it, to try to deal with it and to try to figure out what next.

And it’s about their different complicated griefs and the way they deal with it. And they both have opposing ways of dealing with it. And of course they clash and they struggle and they come upon their own mental health struggles within the play.

It’s interesting to me that at a time when you are working through your grief about theatre, that you’re writing a play about grief. Yeah. Yeah.

That was not lost on me because when I started writing, I actually, when I started writing during this time, I did not start on this play. I started on something way lighter. I wanted to write, and no one steal this idea, although it’s been done before, so maybe steal it.

But I wanted to write like a zombie apocalypse play. I wanted to write something really fun, really silly, but it just wasn’t working. And I felt like I needed to write this other one also because I was working through grief of my own that didn’t have to do with the quarantine.

So that’s me. I just felt like I needed to tell this story. And it’s been definitely hard to do during a time that is also a dark period, which is why I only work on it like an hour a day.

Because I can’t work on it more than that. Because it’s painful, but also because it’s just like so dark in such a dark time. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s funny how writing can be helpful. When I, you know, for years, I was like, I’m going to write a solo play.

And then I had an idea, and I just couldn’t make it work. I was like, it’s going to be about this guy who’s an atheist, and he, you know, he, God starts talking to him. And I was like, that’s great and all.

And it’s going to be hilarious. And first off, they, you can’t really say that right then. But also, at the time that I started writing it, there was something missing.

And it wasn’t until I started putting, you know, fictionalizing, but putting my own grief from that I was still dealing with years after, after losing someone I loved very much to suicide into the play. Yeah. And through that, somehow being able to have this catharsis that I hadn’t been able to have before that.

Really? And you found that through your writing? Through the writing and performing it. Wow. Wow.

I’m not surprised. I’m not surprised. That’s, that’s really cool that that that that happened that you’ve felt some sort of catharsis from it and writing and performing it.

And yeah, I mean, I’m a new wish. I’m a new writer, especially I’m a new playwright, for sure. I’m really learning as I go.

But what was I going to say? Oh, I had something really good to say. Hold up, hold up. It has escaped me.

It’ll come back to me. It’ll come back, I think. I’m sure it will.

Yeah, I’m sure it will. Um. Oh, I remember.

I remember. Okay, good. It’s, um, I really feel like from from everything that I’ve read, because I’ve been reading books on playwriting as well, and doing like watching some masterclasses, like David Mamet’s masterclass and whatever I’m writing.

And it just seems like, yeah, you really, you kind of have to put yourself, you don’t necessarily have to write about yourself at all, or your experiences. But you gotta, there’s gotta be some heart in it, or else it just doesn’t maybe, or else, yeah, exactly. Or else you won’t want to finish it.

Yeah. Because you don’t, you know, you’re not super connected to it. I don’t know, maybe that’s extremely obvious to say, but.

You know, but I think that a lot of people, you know, it’s, it’s not necessarily intuitive, because you can go through, it’s, I’m going to write a play or whatever, and it’s going to be, it’s going to be funny, or it’s going to be moving. But unless you’re really connected to it. Yeah.

You know, the, unless you’re, you’ll, you have a connection to the emotions that are happening there. You really, the audience feels it, I think. Yeah.

Totally. Totally. Now, one of the things that I did want to talk to you about is, is, is about how you’re doing now, as far as theatre goes, how are you feeling? Um, how do you, are you hopeful for the future? How, what is your current state of mind? Did you hear that big sigh I just gave? I did.

I did. There was a lot in that sigh. It was really, that was involuntary.

Um, I feel like that sigh, I feel so many emotions. I feel lost. I know it’s a dark way to start, but I feel lost.

I feel, okay, what was your question? It’s the state of, the state of theatre. I just want to, yeah, I want to let you go where your brain takes you. Okay.

Because I think that that’s really important because we’re talking sort of esoterically about theatre and your relationship to it right now. Yeah. But let your, let, I want to, I want your story.

I want you to talk about how you’re feeling. Okay. Okay.

Cool. Cool. Cool.

Um, you’re great at this, Phil. Good job. Um, okay.

So basically, ah, right now I, I go through so many ups and downs with theatre right now. I’m so sad that it’s, that it’s not a thing right now. Um, physically, I know it’s a thing sometimes online.

I’ve watched a couple shows online. It’s been cool. No, I haven’t loved all of them, but some of them were cool, but it’s just, it’s just not the same.

It’s not the same being, being without being there and being present in seeing living, breathing people in front of you, being with, in a dark room with people, um, experiencing, uh, it and hearing people’s little chatter and comments and gasps and stuff. Um, I’m getting litreally emotional talking about this. That’s okay.

That’s okay. Because this is big stuff. And so it’s fine.

Yeah. I, cause not only do I love performing in theatre, even more, I love watching theatre. I love everything about it.

Um, so I’m mourning, like I’m mourning my career right now and like not having, not be, not maybe feeling useful at all times, um, which is a whole other thing, but I’m also mourning like not being able to witness my favourite pastime, which is like seeing theatre and, and it’s, it’s, um, theatre is so, it’s cathartic. It’s just like writing. It’s so cathartic to like sit and be told a story in real time.

And I know a lot of people have talked, there’s so many conversations around this, around like why that is a thing. And some people say it’s cause like, you know, we’ve always been told stories from the beginning of time. I don’t, I don’t know what it is about being in a room with other people being told a story and being taken away.

Um, but it’s different. It’s different from movies. It’s different from anything else.

It’s different from music. It’s just like, there’s something about it that, that I just connect with on such a deep level. And I, I care about so much and it’s, it’s been really hard to not, not have that going on.

Um, and then on the other side, it’s been, it’s been hard not to be acting and then it gets into more like kind of career worry and career, um, thinking like, oh shit, oh shit. Like, should I just, should I just do something else? And it’s also been hard. There’s so many things I could, we could talk for hours really, but it’s also been hard too of seeing, you know, the people who work, I know this is a theatre podcast, but I’m going to get a little actory into film.

Absolutely. Yeah. Like the people who work in film and TV a lot.

Like I have a lot of friends who are working, um, constantly, consistently during this time, different, completely different world than I’m in, obviously. And that’s been, I’m happy, so happy for them, but that’s been hard as well. And it’s a different hard than when, than if this wasn’t happening.

I mean, there’s always the difficulty of, you know, you’re whoops, sorry. There’s always the difficulty of, um, when there was no COVID when, you know, you’re not working a lot and someone else is working a lot, that can be hard and you’re hearing about it, of course, but there’s a whole nother thing when, you know, your career is there, your, your theatre is shut down. What you work in is fully shut down.

You cannot work in it and other people are able to do kind of their passions. That’s hard. And I know that sounds, I don’t know what it sounds like, but it’s just been difficult.

I think that we have to be honest about, about that and not discount the feeling behind it because, you know, I’ve been thinking, you know, okay, do I, now that, you know, auditions are online, do I move out of the city? Do I go back to school for something else? Because who knows when this is going to come back slash, you know, even before, you know, even before this, I was having like, as we all do as actors, doubts of being like, okay, is this going to give me, is this going to pay me enough to give me the lifestyle I want? And that’s specifically with theatre, I think too. One of the questions, the big questions is, is, is, you know, the idea of, of whether, you know, you’re thinking like, do I leave the city? Auditions are online. I don’t know if they’re going to stay online.

I think this is one of those questions, like when theatre opens up, whenever that is, when we start doing those auditions again, are those going to stay online? Because I kind of feel like those work better, especially for theatre in the room. Oh yeah. I hope to God that they are not online for theatre.

That’s too much. It’s too rough. They’re so, especially for theatre.

It’s just not, no, you got to be in the room. Yeah. You can’t really get the sense of whether somebody has that, that presence.

If you’re online, you can’t really get the sense of, of what’s their, how does their voice fill the room online? You need so many tactile things in person for theatre. Yeah. Years ago, I struggled with many of the same things as you, and there was no pandemic at the time, but it was the whole, you get to a certain age and you’re huh, roommates, ramen for dinner, all of these little things.

Is this the life I want? And you have to, you start to make choices. Do I go back to school? Do I find something else? If I find something else, does that mean that I am no longer an actor? If I’m making the sacrifice to, to stop doing this, does that mean that, that, that I’m no longer an actor, which is a thing that I love being. Yeah.

And it’s hard to specifically with theatre, because it’s like, I would love to go back to school, to learn, to study. Cause I love learning, but, and you could do, if I was just focusing on TV and film, I might be able to do that because it’s such short days or whatever. Like you have short little stints, but for theatre, it just seems like, maybe I’m sure people do it, but I’m like, Oh God, like I would, I feel like I’d just be out of it for, for however many years.

And yeah. And I mean, if you’re going back to school, definitely, definitely that becomes a thing. If you’re doing self-produced theatre, then you get to make your own schedule.

But if you’re doing work with other people that then you have to like, start hoping that your boss is flexible and things like that. There are so many things to balance. And I know I’ve been really fortunate, but also I’ve been really personally very specific.

Yeah. Like some people, and this is really easy to do if you enter like the business world or like an odd, the office world is you get, can get sucked into that. I have to check my email all the time.

Yeah. I have to answer that at all, all the time. And you don’t, you know, and once you start putting walls around it, you know, you, and, and insisting on no, once I leave, this is my time.

Then it becomes a little bit easier, but it’s, it’s not an easy choice to make. And I’ve, I know the things that I sacrificed in deciding to take a full-time job. Yeah.

It’s really hard. And, you know, I’m sure so many people listening will feel, be like, yeah, that’s me. I mean, I’ve talked to, I talked to actors about it all, all the time, litreally all the time.

If you don’t question it, I’m like that, that’s weird to me. No, it’s totally weird. It’s totally weird not to, especially, you know, like, I think I started to question it.

Okay. I questioned everything when I turned 27. When I turned 27, that was a lot of people hit, they’re like, oh, 30 is when you have your big crisis.

I always do my crisis like a couple of years before the big milestone. So 27, I had the crisis. 30 was like, whatever.

But 27 was like this big crisis year. And it was so weird to be doing it at that time, but also just like, how do you not question like your, the choices that you’ve made, especially when you know people who are like, oh, who bought a house? They what? You know, they’re having kids, they’re doing this. They’re like, how is that even possible? It’s hard to see that happening.

Yeah. It’s such, sometimes it feels like it’s just, sometimes it feels like we live such a different life from like, from the only example I can think of is like from the people I went to high school with don’t have jobs in the arts or just art actors who just go to work nine to five, do their thing, can buy a house and have family and like, just do their thing. And it’s, sometimes it feels like you’re like an alien.

You’re like, wow, I’m really living a whole other existence here. I mean, even going into an office situation and, and, you know, I know that the world that I inhabit when I’m not at that office is completely different from everybody else who’s at the office. It’s one of those weird things, like we work in the same place, but we move in different worlds.

That’s how I’ve always felt in every single Joe job I’ve ever done. And I’m also, I just, side note, I’m horrible at every single Joe job I’ve ever done. Truly, I can’t stress that enough.

So bad. But yes, I’ve also I know, I know that feeling. I know that feeling.

Um, now with all of these, these emotions about about theatre, are you are you leaning in a particular way? Or is it just like, sort of like these things that are weighing on you right now? I grapple with it every single day. I know I do. I know I want more than just being an actor.

Um, I would love to do like, I would love to branch into directing and dramaturgy. I’m so interested in all of theatre. So I would love to try as much as I possibly can.

But even outside of that, I’m interested. I’m interested in like psychology, I’m interested in, I want to really interested in mental health advocacy. And I’m like, my dream job would be like, I would love I just love learning, I would love to study I never went to, you know, I’ve never went to an actual university, our school was very hands on old school theatre school, you know, rolling on the ground, good, like, not that I didn’t love it, I absolutely loved it.

But I didn’t have that kind of university thing. And I and I feel like I would really like it. So I know, at some point in my life, I want to do that.

But I’m not ready to, I don’t think step away from theatre and acting. There’s, I don’t know, man, I just, I want I want to say that, that because you do other things does not force you to step away from acting. And I want to make that super clear for anybody who’s listening is that you can get a job in an office and work full time and still find time to do theatre.

Yeah, you can go back to school and study something else, you can do psychology, you could become a life coach, or you could like whatever it is that you want to do, doesn’t take away the fact that you are still an actor. Yeah, no, you know what, Phil, you’re so right. And it’s like, I don’t know why I think that.

But it’s this fear that as soon as I like, do something else, that that means that I’m going to be out of the community, I’m going to not feel fulfilled, I’m gonna regret it or something when, you know, I know, it’s not the case. But I don’t know why I have that idea in my mind. But these are things that these are narratives that we tell ourselves, right? These are narratives that, you know, and I don’t know, when you were at George Brown, and it might be different from when I was at George Brown, but they really made it seem like, you can only be an actor, don’t do anything else, be an actor, otherwise, don’t bother.

And, you know, years later, like people are writer, director, actor, dramateur, fight choreographer, there’s so many things, there’s so many hyphens in their titles. But at the time, like, that was so drilled into me, that when I started to think about, about, about getting another job, I, I thought, well, that means that I can’t do something, I can’t be an actor anymore. Yeah.

And it’s just not a true thing. Yeah, yeah. When I went there, I felt the same way, not to shit on George Brown.

But I did feel like it was, I felt like it was training to be at Stratford and Shaw. Yes, yes. Which like, I went to theatre school, I’m like, y’all are not hiring me.

That was, that was so, my experience as well was that what they were training us for was to be the traditional actor track, go to the audition, get the job, try to get another audition, do that audition, get the job. That’s your life. Yeah.

Yeah, I think other, I mean, I’m sure they’ve moved away from that now. I don’t actually know, because I don’t know anyone going there currently. I know people teaching there.

So I, I hope they’ve moved away from that now, just because that’s just not the way the industry is anymore. Like, you just have to do a million things. Yes.

Unless you’re a super, super, super lucky actor who gets to work constantly. Yeah. But even then those people also sometimes do, you know, directing or whatever other stuff.

Yeah, I always kind of like, whenever I talk to people now who went to theatre school where they, you know, had devised theatre or got to do other stuff, I’m like, oh, that’s really cool. I wish I got to learn that, but you know, it is what it is. And I also learned lots of, I learned, I felt like George Brown gave me lots of technique.

I learned technical stuff. Absolutely. I don’t regret my time there.

I do wish we’d done more about like how to create theatre on your own and how to self-produce and things like that. But I do feel like, you know, as we know, the theatre world is all encompassing, right? I know people who are working five jobs just to keep their theatre career going. And it’s like a little acting job here and a little acting job there.

And they do the medical simulation stuff. And they’re in like so many things just to keep a rule over their head and just to work. And it can be all encompassing to do that all the time.

But I would hope that this pause, if it’s taught us anything, if it’s taught us anything, it’s that we can not be on that treadmill and we can still be actors. We can take a break and we can still be theatre people, theatre makers. We can do something else and we haven’t lost our artistic soul.

Yeah, that’s 100% right. And as much as I may hopefully have, I think I’ve sounded a little negative so far in our conversation. And I don’t mean to, it’s just I go through a variety of emotions at all times about this kind of stuff.

But I will say on a positive note that, yeah, to tie into that during this time. So six months in, hard depress about all of it. Feeling useless, which is no one should feel that way because that’s how you get into major depression.

It’s not great. Feeling absolutely useless, not having a job, all that stuff. One thing that I have learned and is a really positive thing is that you cannot, at least I cannot, but I also think that this is good for other people.

You cannot tie your identity to what you do, to being an actor. You just can’t because it’s then as soon as you don’t get a job or God help us, there’s another quarantine, COVID situation. You feel like a total piece of shit and you feel useless and you feel like, oh, I am, I’m lost.

I don’t know what to do because I don’t have any part of myself. I don’t know any other part of myself, but the person constantly hustling to be an actor or constantly hustling to make theatre. That is something that I was forced to deal with and grapple with because I was that person working a bunch of jobs to make everything, to just act and to just be in theatre.

Now I feel it’s actually been a really positive experience, full of growth for me to learn about myself and different sides of myself that actually have nothing to do with me being an actor. It all comes down to, if you let other people define your identity or you have a story that defines what your identity is, then you get stuck. Unless I’m doing these things, I was talking to somebody a while back who had begun to write and I was like, oh, how do you feel? Because they were talking about all the hyphens that they have when they describe what they do.

And I was like, are you going to add writer to that? And they were like, no, I couldn’t do that. I couldn’t do that. And it was like, but you’re writing that you get to be a writer when you choose to be a writer.

You get to be a theatre maker when you choose to be a theatre maker. That’s your deciding what that identity is, not anybody else. Yeah.

I went through the same thing. I wrote this play and then I put it up my Twitter or whatever says like actor. And I was like, you know what? I’m just going to, I’m going to do it.

I’m going to put writer in there. So I put writer and I was like, oh no, I don’t know. People are going to think I’m a, no, they’re going to know.

I went through that whole thing. It is ridiculous. No one cares.

Like be a writer. But you left it there, right? You left it there. Yeah, I did leave it there.

How long did it take you to put writer on your website? Do I have it on my website? You do have it on your website. That was a later. Oh, it, it was later.

It was later for sure. Cause I feel like that’s like more professional. So like more professional people would be looking at that then by Twitter.

Oh sure. So, so yeah. Oh, I’m glad I have it on there.

I forgot. You have a section called playwriting. So it’s like, yes.

Yes, that’s right. That’s great. It’s, it’s so that everything right now is so in flux that I think that, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about it is because I think that we’re spending a lot of time not admitting to this stuff right now.

And it’s important for everyone to talk about the feelings of loss of theatre and, and, and not knowing what the future holds and, and who am I and what am I? And do I, do I give up? Do I get a job? Do I move away from Toronto? These are big questions that I think we have to address. Totally. And yeah, totally.

And also the mental health stuff that has come up from not working. Like that’s a, that’s a really, really hard thing. We are, we live in a capitalist society and we are programmed and raised to feel like our worth is our job and making money.

And then when that’s taken away from you, you’re like, who am I? And what do I have? I’m not contributing to society, which is so not true, but you know, but it feels like it. If you know, we have this, this very, uh, I want to say Victorian, but I don’t know if that’s it, but there’s this attitude towards work and productivity that we have that is like, no, if you are not constantly going, then something is wrong. I know, I know.

It’s true. It’s true. And I’ve even seen like a lot on like Instagram of being like, just, just towards artists being like, Hey, you don’t have to write a play.

It’s okay. If you didn’t write a play during this time, it’s okay. If you didn’t consume tons of theatre, it’s okay.

Like you didn’t have to be going and making art if you didn’t want to, like, don’t feel the pressure to pressure to do it. But I, you know, that’s easier, easier said than done. It is easier said than done, but I think that it’s, you know, I don’t think that when, when this pandemic is over and we’re welcomed that we’re going into theatres, we’re going into rehearsal halls.

We are not going to be at that opening night, looking around the room and thinking, well, that person didn’t do a zoom play. They didn’t, that person didn’t do something like, it’s just going to be like, we’re back here. Let’s let’s enjoy.

Yeah. I can’t wait for everything to come back. I, oh, I’m, I’m like, so excited to go to opening nights again.

I feel like it’s going to be like the roaring 20 is ever, as everyone says, really, I really can’t wait. I want some serious parties. Yeah.

I feel like I was joking with some friends that like, even, even if you didn’t love the play, you’re going to be on your feet being like, yes, this was the best thing I’ve ever seen in my life. Those, those first plays that come back when the theatres are fully open and you’re having your first full house, they get it. They’re, they’re going to have some, like, it’s like, we’re going to be so happy to be there.

We are going to give them standing ovation just because, because for theatre. Yeah. Yeah.

For theatre. Oh, fuck. I really hope I’m an actor in one of those shows.

You’re like, man, we’re rock stars. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So just as we start to draw to a close and just to sort of lighten things from the serious conversation, one of the things I’ve been talking about with everybody for, since the pandemic started is about joy, because I think we all need a reminder of the joys in our lives and hearing the joys that other people have are super important. And so I was wondering for you, what’s been giving you joy? Oh my gosh. Well, I’m at my mom’s house right now and she has these four big, beautiful trees in her backyard.

And I sit outside sometimes when it’s nice and I watch birds. So I’ve become a birder and it brings me joy. If you haven’t birded, I don’t know if you can say birded, but if you can, I think you can.

Okay. If you haven’t birded, I really suggest it. It is so soothing.

It brings me joy to watch birds. I don’t know how to explain it other than like, it’s just fucking cool, man. Also, what brings me joy? Okay.

So we did a homemade high tea. That brings me joy. Tea basically brings me joy.

Birds. Being in nature always brings me joy all the time. It is my number one thing, being in nature, which is funny that I live in Toronto, but it is what it is.

And what else? Getting mail. I love getting mail so much. So those are just some little things that have been bringing me joy lately.

Thank you so much. Those are great. And thank you for this conversation.

It’s been wonderful. Thank you so much for having me, Phil.