Sue Edworthy
Sue Edworthy has worked in theatre, dance and opera organizations in and around Toronto such as Luminato, Opera Atelier, and Theatre Passe Muraille. She is a 2010 Harold Award recipient and recipient of the CharPR Prize for best publicity 2012 and 2013, and the 2015 recipient of the Leonard McHardy and John Harvey Award for Arts Leadership.
Sue also runs Sue Edworthy Arts Planning, a freelance marketing/PR, producing and strategic planning company for the Toronto independent arts community.
www.sueedworthy.ca
@sueedworthy
Transcript
Welcome to episode 159 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby, and I’m here with Adrianna Prosser. Hello! Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.
Today we’re going to be talking to Sue Edworthy, who is a promotion, publicity machine. Adrianna, you’ve dealt with Sue, you’ve talked to Sue. Yeah, Sue was super generous with her time.
When I was like, excuse me lady, I’d like to ask you some questions. And she was like, girl, let’s make some time and let’s dish. And I couldn’t believe it.
It was one of those things where you see a mogul in your industry and you’re like, this person’s never going to give me the time of day. They’re going to be defensive about their secret sauce. And she was like, no, let’s go for coffee.
You buy me coffee, let’s do this. And she was so generous with her time and her advice. And the thing that sticks out for me is how she can leverage situation, environment, market, that she really sees the big picture and that she can really make that into something that sells and that focuses people on her show that she is marketing.
Once upon a time, she did marketing. Instead of handing out flyers for a show, she handed out fans so that the marketing was on the fan. And because it’s hot, people are going to hold on to that fan instead of like see a flyer and then recycle it.
But that because this is a very useful thing that people are going to carry that marketing around, not only for themselves for the rest of the time, but other people are going to see you carrying that and be like, what’s that thing? And it’s just genius. She’s genius. Genius has been called.
Genius has been called. So in a second, we’ll get to the conversation with Sue Edworthy. Remember, if you like what you hear, if you feel like dropping me a line to tell me so, remember you can find Stageworthy on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at StageworthyPod.
You can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you want to drop me a line, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Phil Rickaby. My website is philrickaby.com. And Adrianna, your socials is at Adrianna P on Twitter. And you can find me at Adrianna-prosser.com. Remember, if you like the podcast, remember to leave a comment or rating on Apple Podcasts, Google Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
Your ratings and comments actually do help people find the show or even better. If you know somebody you think will like the show, tell them about it. Some of my favourite podcasts became my favorites because somebody I knew told me about them.
Now, here’s my conversation with Sue Edworthy. So, Sue, I’m really curious. Hi, Phil.
I wanted to get you on this podcast for quite a while. And in the course of doing this, doing this podcast, I don’t often get to talk to people who do arts administration. Right.
And things like that, which is an essential part. It’s not the out in front, the exciting part. It’s not the it’s not I think a lot of people don’t see it as sexy.
We don’t see it a lot, but it’s so essential. So how did you end up in the arts administration world? I had no intention of becoming part of the arts administration. I went to York in 1995 for theatre.
And first year, you’re all in the everything stream. And second year, you have to specialize. And I realized I didn’t want to be an actor.
What can I specialize in? Well, you could be a director. Okay, I can do that. By my third year in directing, Joseph Green, who was I don’t know if you know, big old bear of a man, you know, brought me in for our thesis thing to have our discussion.
Yeah. And I was explaining what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do. And this is how the show is going to go.
And this is what happened here. And he looked at me said, you know, your problem is kid. No, Joe, what is my problem? You’re not a director.
You’re a producer. And I said, Oh, he goes, we have a great directing program. We don’t have any producing program.
So keep directing for now. Okay. And when we graduated, a friend of mine, who’s now an arts teacher, we of course, opened our own company immediately, of course, because it’s so easy.
And I realized as we were doing that, I was becoming more and more interested in the clockwork in the how does this happen? How does this work? What do I need to do next? And the paperwork of an arm and realizing that that was a strength of mine. So I then went and bartended for three more years at Sneaky D’s. As one does.
As one does. And when I left there, I got a job at Opera Atelier in administration, which was of the, you know, tell us why you want to work here. And it’s like, I want to work in the arts and you have a job.
So I was there for five years, I think, then to Dance Umbrella, then to Theatre Passe-Muraille, then to Illuminato for a few months, then to Artscape for four years. And I realized the entire and then I left Artscape. And I thought, what do I want to do next? And I thought, I realized that all this time at every job, I always had a side gig.
Yell, market your show. Yell, do your PR. And it suddenly occurred to me, I wonder, could I just do that for a living? Yeah, I could open my own business.
I took this great program the government offered, actually a conservative government initiative, um, where you go in with your self-employment idea, and they give you a six-month course on how to open your own business. And more importantly, you get to stay on EI. Right, right, right.
But, you know, with EI, you make any money, you have to pay it back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn’t.
Okay. So you could actually build your business. Right.
Crazy, you know. And I launched in May 2011. And I did it all wrong.
Like, you know, the rules about launching a website, oh, it must be on a Monday in the morning. And I think I hit start, you know, like Sunday around 9.30 at night. I invite you to take a look.
And I woke up the next morning and I had a client request. And my first thought was, oh, thank God the form works. But to tie it all up nicely, my first client request was Expect Theatre, Chris Tully and Laura Mullen, who I was in that directing class with.
Nice. I mean, all those rules and things like that. When you should launch all that stuff.
But when you’re ready, it’s so hard to be like, no, no, no, I have to wait. You just want to be like, I just, I need to hit go. Done, it’s fine.
Yeah, I need to hit go. And you need to hit go because that’s when you realize what’s wrong. Well, yeah, absolutely.
Like, does the form work? Yeah, thank God the form works. Yeah. Just to backtrack a little bit, when you went to York, did you have a sense when you went in that you should go into acting or did you just- Oh God, yeah, honey.
High school, Camelot, Gamma Rays on Moon in the Moon, Marigolds. I wrote the grade 13 play. Oh yeah, I was going to be an actor.
So what is it that made you decide not? I’m a Virgo. There wasn’t enough control. I needed more of an overseeing, how is everything working position.
Yeah. I also liked being asked to do the same thing twice. That just suddenly registered in my brain.
That’ll do it. That’ll do it. You might have to do something a couple hundred times.
Yeah. So, now you’ve been doing primarily publicity promotion. It’s what I do, marketing, publicity promotion, a bit of strat planning.
Yeah. Okay, so when people come to you, how little do they know of what they need? Some people know everything they need. Some people know that they have a show.
And it also depends on how early they approach me. Some people approach me three months in advance, which is fairly standard. Three months, four months.
Yeah, we can do a decent PR campaign and get the long leads and okay. Some people, I’m booked for 2019 through August. Yeah, yeah.
Booked. I’m successful. Yeah.
What’s funny is, and I’m sure that you’ve had people, you’ve experienced people who come to you at almost the last minute and are like, I need to do this. Every year, Fringe, SummerWorks. Before this time.
Two weeks before. Yeah. I’m getting press releases and can I come on your show and this, that and the other thing.
And I’m like, I’m booking six weeks out. Yeah. And especially because it’s considered media.
And six weeks is the lowest I will do. Exactly, yeah. Well, what do you have ready? Well, I need a press release.
Yeah. Honey, yeah, you do. Yeah.
I mean, people often don’t have a clue what they need. No, and I’ll never be mean or dismissive about it because they don’t know because that’s not their job. Yeah.
You know what I mean? Oh yeah, absolutely. There are some fantastic new young producers out there. There are some fantastic people making their own work and doing it well.
But at the same time, the stuff I do shouldn’t have to be your job as well. No, and I mean, it’s, you know, when people are doing fringe and things like that, it’s all like, Yeah. It all falls to whoever.
And usually, and I try to be nice about it. You know, I don’t have the space, but, you know, because I know that you’re not thinking publicity for the most part until, oh, oh, oh, we open in two weeks. Yeah.
We’ve got to tell people about the show somehow. Or you just saw the article and now magazine tend to watch. If you’re seeing that article and haven’t done anything, you’re way too late.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You might get listings. Yeah, no, it’s tough.
Yeah. Is there something, like I’ve been at the Fringe Lottery. Yeah.
And, uh, you know, seeing you at the front doing the tweeting and stuff, and they often stop and say, if you get into the fringe, what is it that you need to do, Sue? And you’re always like, tell people about it. Did, have you just seen too many people who just expect that people are just going to show up? Yeah. Yeah.
Because whether it’s fringe or something else, this show, and I don’t disagree with this at all. This show is the most important thing to you in the world. It better be.
Unfortunately, it’s not the most important thing in the world to everyone else. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
And that’s, and that’s the heartbreaking and frustrating part of my job. Because I won’t take a play if I don’t think it’s great. Right.
And you’ve got a great cast. And oh my God, who’s designing? You know, and to push that at media who are not interested, not in a bad way, but there’s no time. No.
There’s no press left. There’s no space. And the work we do is the one that gets shunted to the bottom.
Of course, Mirvish is top of the list. Of course they are. You know.
Of course they are. Yeah. You know, if they’ve got the biggest stage.
Yeah. So they’ve got the biggest budget. They’ve got the biggest stage.
They get all the attention. You know, and if nothing else, their season is now locked in to every press person’s calendar. Absolutely.
Because they launched Monday. Absolutely. Yeah.
It’s written down. Everybody knows what they’re, when they’re opening and when they’re going to, like what they want to promote and things like that. I remember doing a show where we opened against the Panto.
Oh. It’s not an audience problem. It’s a press problem.
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there’s so, the question always comes up when you’re trying to promote, like, who do you go to? Because, you know.
Who do you want there? Well, that’s the thing is I think a lot of people just want, like, they start with people. My show’s for people. Everybody will like my show.
Well, no, probably not. And, you know, we don’t often think about, we’re not making, like, plans about, like, who is our potential audience and those things. We’re not being good entrepreneurs that way.
And like I said, on one hand, that is okay. That is my job. Yeah.
I’m working with Be Current right now. Catherine Hernandez, their artistic director, also is a seasoned marketer. We are working together like a dream.
There are spreadsheets. There are potential audiences. Good ideas, bad ideas.
Yeah, it’s laid out. They don’t open until April. Well, that’s the kind of, like, if you’re going to plan, you need that kind of time, you know? You know, it’s like the idea, we’ll just get some schools in.
No, you won’t. Well, they’ve already, like, what do you, like, why are they going to come to see your show? They’re booked in, man. Yeah.
The buses have been booked for days. They’ve been booked for months. Yeah, and they’re probably going to Stratford.
They’re not coming to your little show. And I want them to succeed. I lucked out because I’ve got so many teacher friends who are drama teachers, who are art teachers, who are English teachers, who I can say, get them in to see Bound to Create’s Dirty Butterfly at Aki.
Come and see this show because they’ve only ever gone to Stratford, to Mirvish. I want you in a small space. Yeah.
About a hard subject with Manc Accents. Yeah. Right? Well, there’s something about a small space that, like, if you’re only familiar with going to the theatre on a big stage, there’s something very different about being on a, like, seeing something on a small stage when they’re almost in your lap sometimes.
I remember seeing Through the Leaves and I was in the front row at Tarragon when I was a Dorager and all I could think is, if I put my foot out, I could touch Maria Lucrezia. And I folded my feet back. But along those same lines, I took one of my fairy goddaughter, Madeline, to a kids’ friendship one year and I’d taken her to the Panto at Christmas and now we’re seeing something, and what is that? The Bomberstead.
Yeah. And we got there and we’re waiting and the play starts, yay, and it went on for about five minutes. She leaned and said, when does the real play start? Oh, no.
And I’m like, you little theatre snob. Oh, yeah. But when we left, I said, what did you think of the play? And she said, I didn’t really like it.
And I said, oh, okay. She goes, it wasn’t as funny as they thought they were going to be. I said, okay.
But that’s okay. We should see another one. Fine.
Yes. Yeah. It’s funny how kids can pick up on stuff that the grown-ups never will and they’ll verbalize.
Yeah. Because they’re not as funny as they think is a very mature thought. It’s a telling note.
Yeah. But the, can we see another one? Mm-hmm. Yes.
Yes, we can. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Absolutely. Not at the Elegant. But you got to get them young, right? Yeah.
This needs to be part of your life. Well, yeah. You know, what are we doing this weekend? We’re going to a play.
Yeah. And that’s why I think Kids Fringe is such a great thing. It’s essential.
Like just getting, and few fringes have a kids element. Like there’s very few that do. So Toronto’s pretty unique that way.
Yeah. And I mean, Matthew is too old for Kids Fringe now. He’s 12.
Yeah. So we make sure we go to see things like the video game one at Next Stage last year. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Loved it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We had a great time. We went to go see the Body Percussion Festival because it’s neat and it’s different. It’s interesting.
And I think you might like this. Mm-hmm. And I mean, who wouldn’t want to go see something where you can spend your time stomping your feet on the floor, clapping back, all in response? Yeah, it’s a great show.
Yeah. When did you start teaching people to do what you do? Like formally, not just like when you’re sitting down with people. How long have you gone? I would say five years ago.
Okay. Yeah. Yeah, and Frost called me from Humber.
Mm-hmm. And Sholom Dogoi called me from Ryerson. And then called me again for the Chang School.
So I teach social media for one semester to the arts and cultural admin folks at Humber. Yeah. And I teach at Ryerson every second year.
Mm-hmm. It’s a split course with Lorraine Patterson who does fundraising and promotion. We’re great.
And the Chang one is a night school sort of thing where last year was great because it was literally like, hi, I work with Bravo Niagara and I have this project. And it was like, okay, let’s do this. Yeah.
Yeah, so about four years ago. I’m sure there’s probably like 500 bucks in my pension by now. How much… The average student when they’re coming in, I guess Chang’s… There’s like different age groups that they’re talking about.
So let’s take Chang off the table for a second because that’s a little bit different. So when you’re at Ryerson or Humber and you’re dealing with people who are relatively young. Yep.
And I’m pretty sure… They probably come to you thinking they know what social media is. Sure they do. They were born with it.
Yeah. How are they wrong? Hmm. They know how it works.
What they learn quickly is that, yes, you know how it works. You don’t know yet how it works for your play. You don’t know yet where your audiences are.
The things you don’t know are how to use it effectively to market a show. Right. Right.
Um, and it’s funny. I go through my reviews, I guess. I guess they’re my reviews.
Yeah. Report card saying, you know, there’s so much I didn’t know. I didn’t know.
Yeah. I never realized social media was so much work. Yeah.
Because you have to do. I need to see your calendar. Yeah.
Your editorial calendar. What are you doing? When? How are you doing it? Where’s all your stuff? Yeah. Because when I said it seems long, and I taught a workshop at DTRC last week.
And I said, you know, you’ve got to find the two hours, three hours to put this together. Because you may not feel like you have two to three hours, but what you don’t actually have is 15 minutes every morning trying to think of what you’re going to say. Yeah.
Yeah. That will add up far more quickly. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And it’s. If you just go by the seat of your pants.
You can’t. Yeah. You know, and because everyone sort of thinks that social media can be so by the seat of its pants.
Because a lot of it is. Yeah. Murfish isn’t doing this by the seat of their pants.
You know. No. But here’s the thing, neither can you because whether you know it or not, Murfish is your competition.
Yeah. It’s an interesting marketing thing where it’s like, oh, we’re doing flyers. Okay, well, those flyers are up against the Starbucks flyer, the pizza, pizza flyer, the Canadian Home Reliance flyer.
It doesn’t matter to them that, oh, we’re art and we have no money. No. Which sucks because it should matter.
It should matter. Yeah. But also flyers.
Better be good. They better be good. But they’re also like, what are you going to do? Put them in mailboxes? Are you doing like a blanket thing? Like you can do that.
Yeah, pizza pizza can do that. You can be part of the junk mail. It’s not actually that expensive.
FYI. Oh, but it’s also like. It’s also Scattershot though.
Yeah. No, it isn’t. No.
Okay. Okay. Okay.
No. How am I wrong? How am I wrong? First of all, do you think I would do it if it was Scattershot? No. Okay.
Yes. No. My bad.
My bad. You can go online. It used to be in person back in the olden days.
You can pick your neighborhoods. You can pick your targets. You can pick.
I want the people who live here. I want the people who live around the theatre. Right.
I want people who live in this area. Okay. Right.
You can absolutely target like crazy. It’s similar to postering. I tend to work with Ballyhoo because I’ve known Sharon for years and she’s good.
And the thing I like about her is that she has relationships with the people’s places that she puts posters. Right. And what you have to do.
I remember saying to someone because I did. I was a producer on their publicity on that publicity marketing for the living, which was a summer workshop a couple of years ago. And everyone said, my God, your posters were everywhere.
No, they weren’t. My posters, because we were at the theatre centre, my posters were in a T-shape on Queen and Ossington, just those two blocks each way. And because everyone we want to see summer works is in that catchment area at some point, my posters are everywhere.
Yeah. Yeah. They’re not.
There were like 75 of them. But you can make the person you make people that your target audience perceive that they’re everywhere. I’m making the Mr. Burns fingers.
Yes. You know, it’s one of those things that I think that. And, you know, when you’re not thinking about marketing.
Yeah. You don’t realize things like how many times you have to see. It’s up to seven right now.
Yeah. Used to be three. But we see we’re so inundated with advertising now that there’s no way that three is even.
And it’s too frustrating because, you know, my boyfriend, he mutes commercials. I could kill him for that. I want to see that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you got to see this ad. You know, why is it a good ad? The Colin Kaepernick ad.
So many levels of good. Yeah. And I, I annoyedly.
There’s a word for you. Annoyedly enjoyed the people saying, you know, well, it’s Nike. And, you know, they don’t really do.
It’s just for marketing. Yeah, it is. Yeah.
And it’s about who they’re talking to. Exactly. Boom.
Exactly. They know who they’re talking to. I got goosebumps just talking about it.
That’s how I know if an idea is good. You know, yeah, it’s marketing. I know it’s good.
Yeah, yeah. Without I mean, in the time that we have, there’s no way that anybody can glean from this little conversation about I could talk about this shit for days. I’m sure that you could.
Yeah, I’m sure that you could. So we’ll tighten it up. It will take.
Well, I mean, we don’t have days. We don’t have days. But if somebody is starting to think about, OK, I’m going to do a show.
Yeah. Now, I’ve talked to people from theatre, Brouhaha, and they they know they have an idea of how they’re going to market it before they’re before they’ve written it. Good.
And that’s like they’re thinking marketing out of the box. Yeah. Which is smart for them.
We’re not all that smart. All of us are not. No.
Not everyone’s mind is laid out like that. That’s fine. And but when we start to think about marketing.
Yeah. What should we be thinking? I can’t do art smoke today. Who wants to see this? Not who should see this.
And that’s where I think we get trapped because should. You know what else? I should floss more. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Should how I can’t have a should in my theatre. You know? I need a want.
I want to be here for whatever reason. And I wrote an article for a shot of a post years ago that I tell my students about. And it’s about doorways.
And my rule is how many doorways can we make for people to get into this production? Okay. Actors, director, playwright. That’s three.
What about the designers? That’s four more. Dramaturge. Choreographer’s notes.
Videos of the set designer explaining how this works. All of these ways to get in. Please post the costume design.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. All of that stuff.
Give everyone a chance to get in. And something else I say to every workshop, because I believe it strongly, is that we forget that what we do is magic. Yeah.
To some people. No, it’s true. They don’t do it for a living.
Yeah. Right? It’s magic. You know? Oh, yeah, theatre.
I was a sunflower in my grade four. Yeah. I played trumpet in school high band.
Yeah. We’re living this. You know, it’s a Sandy joke.
Can’t talk, live in the dream. Yeah. Right? But you’re right about that.
Because, and we forget it because it’s our every day. How can you not know this? They don’t know what happens in the rehearsal room and all the things that go into it. Why wouldn’t you want to give them a little bit of theatre street cred? Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Not giving away the magic trick. But there’s people like me who enjoy seeing that.
Yes, yeah. But why wouldn’t you want to give people a little bit of street cred in? Yeah. You know? Yeah.
And I think that’s somewhere to start. Do you know Aaron Jan? Suckbath? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was their fringe mentor.
Oh, yeah. Nice. And they approached me.
I wasn’t assigned. I, oh my God, he and Bessie and Gloria were a treat to work with. You know, it’s that, okay, we have 10 hours.
And I said, we’re going to meet once a week for an hour for eight weeks. And that leaves us two weeks to go blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
They did it. They were so on point. They sold out.
This is our marketing. Are you doing translations? Yes, we’re doing three languages. And they did it.
They just, I was so proud of them. You bang, like every checkbox ticked. It got brought to next stage.
Yeah. You know, immediately. I think they’re doing Yellow Rabbit right now.
Yes. Like, I’m so pleased. Like, okay, these are the moments where I’m like, okay, the future will be fine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. But then of course, you know, they’re the average people who have a thing.
Yeah. That they want to do. And they don’t have a starting point.
Yeah. And that’s part of the problem. Yeah.
You know. Because they haven’t thought about it. Because again, marketing is something that for them, that magic happens in a place that they don’t usually see.
But it’s also the fact that because there is so much marketing in our world, everyone thinks they can do it. And my response is, yes, everyone can do it. Not well.
Yeah. No. It’s true.
It’s true. I heard you were on the Bellows. I was.
And you told your story about the, because I know what upsets you, the Mary Pringles. Oh, my God. It was so annoying.
I know. I know. But.
It bugs me yearly. Thank you, Facebook memories. Yes.
Yes. But it’s like, it is, whenever it comes up, because I, you know, I see it and it comes up and you get yes. You are absolutely right.
Bad slogan, missed opportunity. It’s a hugely missed opportunity. Yeah.
Because you didn’t think about it hard enough. No. Because you didn’t bring someone different into that room.
Yeah. What about Merry Christmas? Yeah, but. There it is.
Yeah. You know. Yeah.
But. That was a terrible English accent. Cut that out.
But it’s still like, it’s still, do you think that bringing somebody different, like if you’re, if you have your group, that it’s, that you guys are too close to it to do, to do marketing? You can be. Yeah. Yeah.
I will always ask people’s opinions who know nothing about what I’m working on. What do you think of this? What more information do you need from me? Yeah. You know, because it’s, as you said, we all know all this and we all have our lingo and we all have our acronyms.
And I remember teaching a one-off at U of T Scarborough and Anne Frost, every time I said something like TAPA, she’d write it on the board. TAC on the board. And it was covered.
Right. None of them had any idea what I meant by any of those things. Of course.
Yeah. Yeah. We have a very, someone said once that Canadian theatre is like a very small town in a very big country.
Yeah. And I thought, yeah, kind of is. Yeah.
We have our, we have our, our, our lingo. Yeah, we do. Yeah.
Um, do you think that lingo is a, is a, like there’s things that we find important that are a bit of a barrier to people outside when we start talking about them? Can I give you a fantastic example? Yes, please. I was sitting having coffee with Mackenzie Hillier years ago and we were talking about getting people to see theatre, getting people to see theatre, blah, blah, blah. I said, we don’t educate them.
And she said, what do you mean? And I turned to the table next to us. I said, excuse me. And they said, yes, sorry to bother you.
Do you see that poster over there for a play? And I read the title because there’s 90 posters there. Right. I said, they said, yeah.
I said, do you see the letters at the bottom? What did they say? So P W Y C, what does that mean? Right. No idea. Of course not.
And I said, it means pay what you can. And even then they said, what does that mean? It means if you’ve got a fibre on you and want to go see Dreaming High Park. We’ll take it.
You can. Yeah. Certain days.
Yeah. They didn’t know. No, of course not.
Not their fault. No. Right.
No. But the things that we know that they don’t, that we assume that everybody knows like what goes on, that the magic that we make. Because we live in the muck of the magic.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
What do you, what is it? Is there something you wish that people would do more with their marketing? Aside from hire somebody who, who hire a marketer. That’s a given. Yeah.
I need them to really figure out first who this is for. And when I use the phrase target audiences, I don’t necessarily mean yoga moms. Yeah.
No. The deaf. No.
Who? Who? Why not theatres’s Hamlet? Mm-hmm. What a brilliant piece of work, a brilliant piece of work. And I love the fact that deaf people were coming to see it.
Mm-hmm. And I love the fact that we didn’t get to understand parts of it because there were no subtitles. Yeah.
Horatio, Horatio spoke sign language. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we don’t get to know.
And guess what? That happens a lot of times. Sure. To people who can’t hear.
Yeah. To people who can’t see. That was a brilliant piece of work.
The pricing was brilliant. Yeah. They caught me.
I was flush. Yeah, sure. Take 50 bucks.
You know, no worries. You know, my friend’s coming. I think she’s 10.
Right. But yeah, that was a brilliant piece of work. And it wasn’t just us seeing it.
It wasn’t just an industry show of magnificence. Right. That casting.
There was 8,000 USPs on that stage. Mm-hmm. Unique selling point, right? Yeah.
Again, I’ve already mentioned her name because I love her. Maria Vakratzis is Polonius. Yeah.
I called my friend in Vancouver. I’m like, get on a plane. You have to see this.
You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Christine Horne is Hamlet. Karen Robbins.
Oh, I’m sorry. I’m going to stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was such a marvellous work. It really was. You know, because I work in dance as well.
Hari Krishnan, two years ago, his skin in quicksand piece. So sexy. Sexy Bharat Natyam at Buddies.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. I ran into a friend of mine in the lineup.
I’m like, what are you doing here, sir? He’s like, I came to see the naked boys. I’m like, yeah, I’ll sell you a ticket. You know? By the way, I know we’re talking primarily about indie.
A company that does damn good marketing. Buddies and Bad Times. From top to tail, stem to stern, front of house, boom.
I would work with them anytime. I get happy when my clients are, oh, we’re going to be at Buddies. Yes! You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What is it that they do right when you say that? They know who they are. They know who their audience is. I mean, because if you think about it, did you see their campaign to repair the roof? I didn’t.
I didn’t know. Like all good bottoms, we’ve worn out our top. They know, yeah.
You know your audience. And it’s not necessarily just a queer audience. It’s allies.
And I’m like, oh, that is brilliant. Marc is fantastic. I’ve silenced you.
No, no, no. It’s like there’s just so many things that you can talk about when you’re talking about this kind of stuff. Because, you know, I mean, doing this podcast, I see a side of marketing that I had not previously seen because now I’m on media lists and things like that.
I’ve already tagged you. I thought you were coming over. Yeah.
So, I mean, it’s part of… I would recommend to anybody to have some time looking at things from a marketing point of view. Because marketing sounds so dirty. Oh, yeah.
How am I going to sell this? And it’s funny because every time I left a position, that’s where I do, etc. I’d have like the big dark night of the soul and weeping and wine and Leonard Cohen, you know. And just this little voice on my shoulder saying, go work at the liver foundation.
I hear they leave at five. Right? You know, to go work somewhere where everyone’s got a liver. Yeah.
And my response would be, I don’t really care that much about my own liver. How can I care about it? I can’t leave. I’ve done this my entire life, you know.
Yeah. It’s just like, it’s funny because when we think, you know, people think marketing is like a dirty word and things like that. And yet, if people aren’t coming to the show, why aren’t there bums in seats? Bums in seats are the result of marketing.
Yep. And it’s interesting because I hate the word bums in seats because it is so limiting. Because all that creates for me is a relationship with someone.
It’s a one night stand. Yeah. Yeah.
Right? I want a bigger relationship with you. I want you to come see my company no matter what they do. I worked at Opera Italia.
Yeah. And years ago, we did something that fudged up the brand a bit. You know, pieces that weren’t exquisite Baroque opera.
It was all in one show. Yeah. But yeah, people still came.
They came back because they know the company. It’s not a question of saying, I’m going to see Hamlet. I’m going to go see the new Why Not show.
Yeah. Well, I mean, it’s relationships. And it’s not just about one show.
No, it’s important. And you know, people like Theodore Brujaha knows that. You know who else knows that? Eldridge Theatre knows that.
Agreed. Eric has such a loyal audience. And they’re not regular theatre-going audiences.
No, that’s the best part. That’s the best part about it. Did you see the post he had up? It was a few years ago.
About when he was doing card tricks in the park. And a woman came up to a volunteer who didn’t speak English. And she said something.
And another woman up here yelled what he said in her language. So they got her up there as well. So Eric would say the thing.
The woman would translate the thing. The other woman would pick the card. And that, to me, that’s theatre.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. She’s got a story forever.
Absolutely. Um, I saw the ballad of Sally McCreary a couple years ago. And my friend and I were, I think we were being sassy when he was doing his pre-show.
Because he was like, you guys are going to sit up here on the stage. Which is the best scene in the house. Because now you’ve got close-up eyes on.
And there’s only two people who get to do that. You see everything. But not everything.
Not how the magic works. You just see enough. Um, and of course, now, I’m like, I’ll say to her, like, so Eldridge is doing a show.
She’s like, I’m in. Great. Yeah.
Yeah. I’ll be there. And it’s amazing, like, the way that he’s managed to build something that is not a regular theatre-going audience.
People, like, as October comes up, I’ve talked to Adrianna, who works with him, that like, you know, the fall starts to turn. People are like, what’s the new show? What’s the new show? When’s the new show going to happen? Like, they want to see it. Yeah, absolutely.
Which is so valuable. Which is why it’s important. Because I think, as indie artists, we tend to think about this show right now.
Yeah. And we need to think about next year’s show and the show after that. And how are we going to keep talking to these people? Because my show is in November.
I need to be able to say something to them in February. Hey, remember me? Yeah. And it’s that project to project where you get enough money to do that show.
And there’s no bridge money to keep those audiences. Yeah. There’s no bridge money to have someone clean up the sign up form that everyone wanted to be on your email list.
Yeah. You know, and it’s those bits that are so crucial and so boring. Yeah.
You know, I apologize to my assistants and interns. I’m sorry, it’s list claiming day. Yeah.
I know it’s boring. But that’s the, it’s the glue. It has to be done.
If you’re going to have that ongoing conversation, you have to do it. It has to be done. Yeah.
Yeah. And, you know, something else to say to my workshops, I just want to be clear that nobody here has tons of spare my money and time. Right.
We’re good. Yeah. If you do, I don’t know why you’re here.
So let’s just be clear that we’re not going to talk about having no time. I’m not going to talk about having no money because none of us do. Yeah.
It’s just about like making use of what you do have. Being precise. Being precise.
You know? Yeah. Yeah. What is, aside from a bad slogan, and when people are doing, like trying to promote theatre, I mean, aside from some of the stuff we talked about, what’s the biggest mistake that people actually, they usually make? In terms of marketing pieces? Oh, forgetting that it’s a marketing piece.
Where’s the time? Yeah. Where’s the date? Where’s your Facebook logo? It’s a marketing piece. Yeah.
And the art needs to be as beautiful as it can be, but it also needs to tell me something about this show. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Because a beautiful, modern watercolor is lovely, but unless you are an artist who is specifically working in beautiful, modern watercolors, this tells me nothing about your production of Hamlet. Yeah. Yeah.
Give them a clue, because once again, this goes back to the category of, people are allegedly picking these up in coffee shops. Yeah. Why do you want them to bring it home? It’s got to give them, it’s got to be part of the storytelling, right? It does.
And, excuse me, and my thought is, if I have one postcard in these people, can I give it to where it won’t just be shoved in their purse? Yeah. Or become a coaster? I’ll tell you, once I was meeting with someone, I gave him a postcard for the show I was working on, and he wasn’t thinking at all, and he spilled some sugar and like lined it up like a Copeland, but with my postcard. Right? Ow.
Welcome to my art. Yeah. I did, you know, I was just out east doing my show.
And Halifax, I found, was not much for flyering. There you go. Whereas in Toronto.
In a lot of fringes. There are some that are not. There’s a very few.
Montreal, they don’t line up. And again, you need a city where they line up. And if they don’t line up, you can’t fly it.
Oh, then forget it. There’s one venue where people would sort of hang out beforehand in Halifax. And you’d see, you’d be like, ah, a captive audience.
And you’d walk up to them and you’d start doing your pitch. What? Like you have three heads. And then you would give them your flyer and say, this is my show.
And then everyone would get up to go see the show and leave your flyer behind. Yes, that was kind of my reaction. As well as going home and having a little cry.
But at the same time. But my piece of paper. Yes, I know.
I know. There’s some days like when you’re walking and they’re flyering for a sewing machine store or something that people. And it’s like, excuse me, can you throw this out for me? That’s kind of what it feels like.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I tell you one of my favourite stories about marketing and flyering? I worked on Awake with Expect. That was my first client.
And they were doing their piece Awake in the Toronto Fringe. Are you familiar with this piece? No. Chris and Laura spent a great deal of time.
Do you remember? I think it was 2006, the summer of the gun. Yes, yes, I do. Which culminated with a young man getting shot at his friend’s funeral.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Laura and Chris spent a ridiculously wonderful amount of time speaking to survivors, to parents, to mothers. And they created this show called Awake because it was, you know? Right.
Right. And it was in the Walmer Street Baptist Church. That was when it was BYOB.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I’m like, okay, so it’s a funeral. Yeah.
I’m like, okay, so yes, posters, yes, postcards, fine, whatever. What else are we doing? What are we doing with this? Yeah. I said, what? And I closed my eyes.
I’m like, okay, okay, July, summer, hot, funeral. Fans. Yeah, fans, right? The fans you see in every funeral on television.
So I went down to Chinatown, scared the hell out of this woman, and bought a hundred. I need them all. In true theatre moment, right? Of course, yeah.
And I went and bought some clear labels and labeled the fans. Logo, da, da, da, da, da. Yeah.
And I went and sat in the fringe tent, this was back in the United States, and was labelling them so people could see me doing it. My boyfriend at the time was with me. He’s like, okay, evil marketing genius.
And I’m like, yes. Okay, that’s genius. How is it evil? I’m like, oh, you just wait.
And the young lady came up to me to tell me about her show. I’m on the fringe. I was on the fringe board.
So give me your flyer. Tell me about your show. And it’s like 9,000 degrees.
And I’m like, here, here. And she’s like, thank you so much. She’s fanning and she’s telling and talking about the show and blah, blah, blah.
I said, thank you. I will keep this. I know someone I’m going to give this to.
And she went, okay, sort of sadly went to give the fan back. I said, you know what? I got a box full. Take it with you.
And she said, thank you so much. And I turned to her and said, watch. And she went over to flyer another table and started telling them about her show.
And they stopped her with the actual finger up stop and pointed at the fan. And she turned it. And I watched her start to sell my show for me.
Our marketing materials got mentioned in a review. I’ve gotten a good review. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But right. But how often does that happen? Exactly. And the thing is, people don’t have them.
You know, I was at someone’s house. I’m like, I made that. Yeah, yeah.
You know, and those are, those are the back of the day stories. Like, you know, when I was a director of marketing and more development at theatre, pass for rye. And we’re also broke because, you know, it’s theatre and all that.
And I’m at the table gluing together, photo, colour, photocopies, glue stick. Just like, I’m the director of marketing. I am so important.
Yes, I’m on garbage tonight. I know. Yeah, yeah.
But where else are you going to do that, man? Where else are you going to feel like you make that level of difference? Well, that’s the thing. Where someone else couldn’t just come in like at the liver foundation and take your place and do it. Yeah, no, it’s true.
Yeah. Doing the show that I’ve done it three, four inches now, I’ve now been through two posters, both of them. My previous ones, bad.
Yeah, as I’m, as I, you know, as I’m thinking about, about things like that. And I was just thinking it was not putting out the right message. Yep.
Now I have a good like tagline because everybody who sees a tagline is like, oh, I got to see that. What’s the tagline again? It’s about what happens when an atheist, what it’s, what happens when an atheist finds out, what happens when an atheist finds out that he’s been chosen by God to deliver him commandment. Everything.
I’m like, oh yeah, the atheist one. I remember it. Exactly.
Okay. So I’ve gotten by. Yeah.
On that. Yep. With a not good poster.
Sure. So I’ve been like reworking the poster. It was a better idea, cleaner.
Still, I mean, that, that still stays. I’ve been very fortunate with that tagline. Um, but I think it’s, it’s sort of like, and it’s the thing that you don’t know that you don’t know because I was like, it’s only over time have I realized the poster is not what’s selling my show.
And I’ve got to do. The tagline is a memorable thing. Yes.
However, if they’re not remembering your poster, they’re not seeing your tagline. I am every year at fringe, I go down and take a shot of poster alley so I can use it in my classes saying, this is your competition, you know? And everyone’s like, well, what stands out to you? That one. Cause it’s yellow.
Like, right. It could be anything, but that is your, it’s like those, those tables by the mailboxes in places that are just covered in flyers. What are we doing here? No, absolutely.
I’ve been walking by, right? Well, it’s, you can, there’s a number of people that I’ve spoken to and, you know, I was talking with Jillian English in Halifax and, you know, she just dropped like, you know, I don’t do a show unless I know how I’m going to market it. She doesn’t even start writing it until she has an idea of what she’s, how she’s going to market it or what her strong imagery is. If the point of you creating a show is for other people to see it, if the point is for you to peek out from behind the curtain and go, I don’t know these people, right? That who invited, is that, no, I don’t know what that is.
If that’s your point, I think it should be, then you have to know where those people are in relation to your show. You know, I mean, you can do the easy tricks, you know, it’s like, well, it’s about yoga moms. Well, you’re definitely going to post her up.
They know us, you know, that kind of thing. But how else are you reaching them? You know, I spent yesterday, we’re working on Be Current’s new piece. I spent yesterday looking up feminist blogs, cross country, feminist magazines, cross country.
Do we want to have something at Glad Day? Or do we want to have something? Would it be more important to have it here? Well, that’s in Brampton. Still, if it’s specific enough, right? That’s what we did for four hours yesterday. We’re not even close to that.
These are questions that are so important to ask. Because, you know, you can sell your show to your friends. Oh, sure.
You better be able to. Well, yes. In theory, you can sell your show to your friends.
But you know what? That’s probably going to carry you for a night. Yeah. And they’ll all come in a big watch.
And all the laughs will come from that corner. There’s something I’ll tell you right now. You’ve got a big group of your friends coming.
Tell them to spread out. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it’s so obvious it’s your friends in the corner.
Absolutely. We’ve all seen that show where we’re like, was that fine? I miss something. Yeah, yeah.
But when it’s like that group, you start to, yeah, it’s the friends. College buddies, yeah. Spread them out, guys.
Yeah, but, you know, we often think, you know, it’s important that my friends say, yeah, sure it is. But again… You know what’s really important to me right now? Season two of Netflix. This is us.
That’s important to me. That is the thing. Is that that is the question that we are, I mean, we’re doing a lot of… You’re competing against everything.
We’re doing a lot of hand-wringing about, you know, theatre and where’s our audience and why are we getting our audiences out there? And I think… Do you want them there? Yeah. Well, that’s the thing. It’s like… Right? How… Do you? Yeah.
How are we advertising in such a way? Or how are we talking to people in such a way that makes them think this is worth getting off my couch? Yep. Yeah. And I have a pet peeve about theatre trailers.
Because they’re bad, for the most part. They have to be really good. I know, but… Because once again, we are competing against really good.
I don’t think… I think a lot of times when people put out a trailer, they’re not thinking about… No. They’re not really thinking about what am I competing against and what works in trailers. Have you seen the trailer for Hopkins doing Lear? No, not yet.
Movie. Have you seen the trailer for McKellen doing Lear? That’s a movie theatre broadcast of the play. Yeah.
Yeah. That’s what you’re competing against. Yeah.
Because that’s a play. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah.
I can go see really good, expensive plays in a movie theatre. Yeah. I can get popcorn.
Yeah. I can go pee. Right? Yeah.
People are not just going to stumble into our theatres. No, they’re not. We have to give them something, a reason.
What’s the reason for getting off the couch? Because you know what? I’ve come home so many times and… I’ve had tickets. Oh, yeah. Oh, I just can’t tonight.
I can’t. My rule is I can’t go home first, or I’m not coming back. Oh, well, that’s the thing, right? And then you go wind up drinking at a bar.
And call a box office that coordinates saying, I can’t make it. I have a cold. But turn in your comps.
Yes. Or you get kicked off lists. Yeah, no.
It’s very much… I remember a couple of years ago, three, maybe three years ago, there was a big… Swordplay. That was the name of the show at Nextage. The video game swordplay.
I mean, sex T-Rex. Literally, and Victoria’s going to love me for mentioning them again. But the word… We’ve been doing a fabulous lot of name dropping.
We have, yes. High five to us for name dropping. The sex T-Rexes stuff, I can never get enough of because… And the reason I love them is they’re like, we’re going to do a video game on stage.
They’re not thinking when they say that, how are we going to do that? They’ll figure that out later. That’s not the problem. When they told me they were doing a Mad Max thing on stage, I said, what the fuck are you doing? But they did it.
That’s what they’re good at. Yes. And there’s a reason why they sell out at Nextage.
And there’s a reason why they sell out wherever they go. They were the first tickets I booked because I came home, I said to Matthew and Violet and his sister and Ken, this is what we’re going to see. Okay, we’re going.
They all loved it. Of course they did. Everyone had a great time.
Of course they did. But you figure, 11 to 55. Yeah.
Right? Which is so much more realistic than 8 to 88. Well, yes. Can we do realism from now on? Oh, please, please.
Fun stuff for 11 to 26. Yes. Really, we should be able to be that specific.
But yeah, it’s like, again, and they, I mean, they are at the point now where they have the sex t-rex brain, which is very strong. I know who you are. I will come see your show.
Right. And then, you know, it’s like Eldritch is the strong brand. There’s, you know, having a strong, when people know who you are.
It’s something, it’s funny because you talk about brand and something else. I always teach because my students talk about brand a lot and it’s not being blonde. Right? I explain to them that your brand is the promise you make to your audience.
If you break your promise, you break your brand. It’s that simple. Yeah.
And it is not up to you to, what was the phrase I usually use? It’s what they think of your brand, not what you think. Yes. You know, McDonald’s.
Oh, fun, fast food. Yeah. Slaughterhouses.
Right? Right. Nike. Colin Kaepernick.
Sweatshops. Yes. Yeah.
But it’s about it, like. Keep your promise. Exactly.
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, you don’t, you can’t always control.
Nope. Where they go. No.
But you have to figure out how to use it. Yeah. Yeah.
I just, you know, as you talk about Eldritch and you talk about sex t-rex and it is that idea where I know who you are. Totally know who you are. Yeah.
Yeah. Hello, my love. How you doing? Yeah.
We’re not live, so it’s okay. It’s all good. Phil, this is my partner, Ken.
Hi there, everyone. Um, but it’s, it’s, yeah, the, the people that you know who they are. Yeah.
Um, so they have a certain advantage. Yeah. When you’re coming at it as, as somebody who, you know, you’re new, you don’t have that advantage.
So you have to get, you have to be more clever than them. Yeah. Watch your hook.
Yeah. That’s the question, right? I had no idea who Aaron and Bessie and Gloria were until they said they wanted to work with me. Right.
I know exactly who they are now and I will champion anything they do in any way I can. You know, brand creative. Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I mean, you have to back up the marketing with good product, right? Yeah. You can’t. You can trick people.
Once. Yes, that’s the thing. Yeah.
Is like, you can do, you can have a killer ad campaign with a crap show. Yeah. But you don’t get to do that more than once.
No, you don’t. And that’s why it’s important to, you know, you can’t just throw shit on stage. No, you can’t.
And then once again, you’re also filling up the pages of now listings. Yeah. And also it’s stuff like that that is like, theatre is for me, the only thing where I encounter people who say things like, I saw a play once, I didn’t like it.
Do you know? So what about a book? Yeah. Or a movie? I know. Right.
So you saw, you know, well, yeah, I don’t see horror movies anymore. Let’s just see. You found other movies.
Yeah. About that. This is my interview, but that’s exactly how I look at it.
And I mean, modern dance suffers from that greatly. I worked in modern dance for four years. I was a tour marketing manager.
Terrified. It’s going to be naked people dressed in black, except they’re naked. Right.
Yeah. So they’re wearing like a turtleneck, but nothing else, you know? Which is weird, but yeah. But it’s that, and it’s the education component.
I remember once I was having dinner with some people I didn’t know very well. And it was so boring, not theatre people. But it was the, someone said to me, they were talking about the movie for Da Vinci Code and how bad it was, because it was not very good.
And so I contributed by saying, well, the book was no literary masterpiece, but at least it was a bit better. I don’t read. Right.
My response was like, like stop signs? I can’t fathom that. No, of course. Yeah.
You got to, I didn’t get into it because then I’m that guy at the table, but yeah. Really? Like the number of times that I’ve had, I’ve heard of people who were like, I saw a play once, I didn’t like it. And I don’t go to theatre now.
I ate food once, I didn’t like it. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, I had a pizza, it was no good.
I don’t eat food anymore. No, don’t care for Italian at all. It’s just a ridiculous, it’s just a ridiculous thing.
But you know, it’s. But so what was the risk that you took there that you don’t take every time you walk into a movie theatre, open a book, you know, go to a festival, go to a concert. It’s the same risk.
But why won’t you take that risk anymore? Yeah, no, it’s like that, that’s the question of why. Um, and you know, maybe it’s, maybe it’s because there’s a lot of effort involved to go into the theatre. Yeah.
Some people think you have to get dressed up. I know. We’re not big on that.
You don’t have to. I worked in front, I worked front of house for Mervis. I know that people, people show up in, in jeans, tracksuits, whatever.
With the 25th anniversary crowd. Yep. Who are bedazzled.
I think the last time I got dressed up for the theatre was to go see Phantom. Because it was 20th anniversary. And we had really good seats.
I worked at Teotix at that time. So let’s bedazzle. Yeah, absolutely.
But I mean. But it’s coming back. Yes.
Right. You know, why, you know, it’s still running in New York. So yeah, it’s never stopping.
But you know, it’s one of those barriers because we’re bad at educating people. Because people think you got to get dressed up. It’s going to cost a lot of money.
It’s going to cost a lot of money. Yeah. All these things that we think or that people think.
Because the people with the marketing money have the ticket prices. Yeah. What does PWYC mean again? Yeah, exactly.
Did I ever tell you about my 12-hour arts marathon? No. I’ve been having ad nauseum conversations like that at one point. And I was like, okay, you know what? I need to prove that this is not true.
And so I picked a day. It was a leap year. So it was February 29th.
So technically I had a day to kill. Yes. And my goal was to see as much art as I could for $100.
Okay. Granted, $100 is a barrier to a lot of people. However, this is what I can work with.
Yes. The rules were it had to be sort of in my hood. Like I’m not going to Scarborough or something.
Travel time is a thing. And I will try to see something from every genre. And I started in my morning and I went to the library and got a book for free.
And then I stopped at the mascot, which was still open at that point and got a latte with a leaf drawn. Yes. Food art.
Yes. And when I told them what I was doing with it, they made me like five in a row because they wanted to be part of it. Five bucks.
Yeah. I then marched over to Mocha because it used to be right there. Yeah.
I saw two fascinating exhibits and put $10 in the pay what you can. And I worked my way through the city. I went to the Bell Lightbox.
I saw a movie. I worked my way back to Factory. I saw a play.
I went for sushi because that’s food art. And I finished the night. Oh my God, I was so tired.
It was a 12 hour marathon. By putting a $5 bill in the jug at the Cameron House. Right.
Live band. Grand total for the day, 88 bucks. Oh, and I went to Canadian Stage.
Yes. Yeah. And my other rule was that I couldn’t find deals that average people couldn’t.
Right. I couldn’t go, hey Ashley, can you get me in? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No.
Oh, it’s T.O. Tick. So I can do that. It was me and like a hundred older people watching Crystal Pite.
Right. At two in the afternoon. It was magnificent.
Nice. It can be done. Yeah.
You know. But again, it’s like we’re combating like an indie theatre. We are combating the perception that theatre is expensive.
Mirvish is benefiting from the fact that tickets are expensive. And you also have to remember that we are combating the fact that you get what you pay for. There is also that.
Yeah. Like people who think, oh, I need to charge. If I charge.
And you know, I’ve been involved in these conversations in indie theatre. Oh, if we charge $20, that’s too much. No, no, no, no.
Don’t go below that. Don’t even talk to me about that. Don’t even talk to me about that.
Someone said to me once based on our venue. Well, we can’t charge over $25 in that venue. I said, why not? Well, we just can’t.
I said, is the acting going to be shittier because of the venue? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is that feeling of the fancy bathrooms and the, you know, the paper towel things that look like hanging plants at the Elgin.
Yeah. Versus who are the adventurous people? Yeah. And I remember I was going to the Transact one night for the Fringe Lottery.
Yeah. And I’m standing there with my cane and like, oh, the front flooring is chipping off. And I was in a bad mood.
I’m like, this is the problem. We work in shitholes. Yes, well.
You know, we do. Yeah. And I don’t mean that in a mean way at all.
No. It’s just like, this is where we work. Fuck.
Yeah. You know. But I mean, if somebody is used to, like, if the only theatre that they’ve seen is, they stave up all year so that they can see like that one show at Mirvish.
Yep. And then they go. We got them tickets at the anniversary.
Yep. And then they go, then they go to, you try to finally get them out to an indie show. Yep.
And they’re like, what is this? You know. I did indie theatre jury duty for the Doras once. I have never walked up so many back alleys.
Oh my God. So many flights of stairs. Someone said, I said, I need signage.
Yes. Yeah. You know, and there’s just sort of like this piece of paper on a door that says the show in little tiny.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember going to a play that was in Trinity Park and the sign saying this way was there at Queen Street, except it was in the bowl. Oh, no.
Oh, and I’m anywhere. I used to work. It used to be the rule that I was your signage tester.
Yes. If I could find it, you have enough signage and I would, they would walk behind him. Okay.
Okay. Where do I go now? Yeah. Yeah.
Now the arrow was pointing up. What does that mean? Yeah. Yeah.
No, but yeah, it’s that idea of things that you need to think about. Yeah. And you know, and I mean, and it’s also what people are comfortable with and with the thing.
No, if they’re going to go to Mirvish, it’s going to be a good time. It’s going to be a clean, not torn up seat. Yes.
They will know where they are sitting. They know they can have a glass of wine at intermission. They know that their car is secure in the parking lot.
All of these things are a security that we may or may not be able to offer. Yeah. Is that our fault? No, no, no.
That’s why there’s so many like pages, like scrolls devoted. How to get here by TTC. How to get here by streetcar.
Absolutely. And we try. We really do because we want these people to see our work.
Sure. You know. We’re just not telling them sometimes what they need to know.
Like, why is this better than Netflix? Yeah. Tonight. Why is it worth getting out? Why is it? Why is it putting worth putting in your contacts and putting your bra on? Yeah.
Right. Yeah. Don’t put on pants for this.
Wait. What is my reason for going? You know, like, and again, things that a lot indie people are a lot of times not thinking of until until it’s too late. Yeah.
So I guess the takeaway is the takeaway is. Um, if you’re going to do a show, like, think about this stuff. Yeah.
Like. And when I say know who wants to see it, I don’t mean write it for them. But figure out who will want to see this.
Everybody should see more theatre. Yeah. Everybody should floss more.
Yes. Why do I want to? Yes. Who wants to? Yeah.
Why did I see swordplay? Yeah. Because. Video game junkie.
Video game junkie. We’re going to play. Yeah.
Play junkie. Yeah. It’s interesting, um, because whenever, you know, every time I enter the fringe lottery every year, um, I already know what I’m posting.
If I get it. Thank you. I’m shaking his hand.
We’re past high fives. Because because. Yeah.
That is. Yeah. Like that’s the what’s my first tweet? What’s my first Instagram post? That’s got to be there.
And and. You know, I’ve only come to that like in the last few years, but like. Yeah.
You’ve got to know and have an idea before you even. Yeah. What are you going to do with this? Yeah.
Because you can dance in your living room and you can read scripts in the back room of the Cameron house with your friends and drink. But if you want people to come see this, you gotta let them in. It’s the doorway thing.
Yeah. Let them in. Yeah.
Can I ask you a question? Yeah, yeah. Are your plays written before you enter the lottery? Yes. Yeah.
Because you always hear that story of fuck we got to write a play. Yo, no. I have the whole like, you know, I know all the people who are like, oh, yeah.
And then they drive me crazy. Oh, I’ll figure it out when I when I get in. I always want to shake them and go, but I have something.
And because. This is not fair. Well, it’s it.
Yeah. You know what? It’s a lottery. I know.
I know. But I’m always. Life is not fair.
Life is not fair. And I always have that whole like. I don’t know.
They don’t get as stressed during the lottery because they don’t have any skin in the game yet because they haven’t made it. Nothing left to give and nothing left to lose. Yes.
And you know, I always I always have a show before the lottery. So I’m always like. You know, as they drive thing.
But that’s just, you know, it’s just. I’d love to see, you know, if you didn’t get anywhere, like, just pull it, throw the script down, storm it. I mean, I thought about it.
Then come back and get a letter. Of course, because, you know, that’s the thing. It’s the only thing.
It’s just gonna be a blank. Just a bound title. Just like title.
Oh, fuck. And then. Just my turn to play it.
Yeah. And then. But, you know, that’s.
There’s that on each page. It does. It’s just that on every page.
Sue, thank you so much for doing this. Absolute pleasure. I didn’t realize you actually wanted to ever interview me.
Would you mind shoving other people at you? Like, I haven’t asked you that before. Listen, I know that you have plenty to talk about. This has been a Homebody Productions production.
