Carolyn Bennett & Jennifer McKinley

Carolyn Bennett is an award-winning writer (2013 TIFF Screenwriting Intensive Jury Prize) and comedian living in Toronto. She was part of the 2017 Thousand Islands Playwrights’ Unit and developed the full-length play The Monarchists. Produced plays include Mixed Media, Pure Convenience (CBC Radio), Runtkiller, The Short List,Hitler’s Ass, Canis Familiaris and Sick Kids Wanna Talk To You. Her debut novel Please Stand By from Vancouver’s NON Publishing will be released Fall 2019. Etc, etc…https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carolyn_Bennett_(comedian)

Jennifer McKinley was a co-artistic director of Alumnae Theatre’s New Ideas Festival (2014-2017) in Toronto. She is a lead coordinator with the Feminist Art Collective, and wrote, produced and performed her solo show, Operation SUNshine at the 2017 Toronto Fringe. Operation SUNshine also had a run at the 2018 Feminist Fuck It Festival in Toronto

Double Down Helix

A dark comedy that examines the implications of retail genotyping, DoubleDownHelix (DDH) asks the audience “to whom do you belong?”

DoubleDownHelix is directed by Jennifer McKinley, a co-artistic director of Alumnae Theatre’s New Ideas Festival (2014-2017) in Toronto. She is a lead coordinator with the Feminist Art Conference, and wrote, produced and performed her solo show, Operation SUNshine at the 2017 Toronto Fringe. DDH is stage managed by Natasha Rotondaro, an emerging theatre artist and soprano.

Open To The Public Theatre presents: DoubleDownHelix
Kingston Storefront Fringe Festival
Venue 3
• Saturday July 21 @ 2PM
• Sunday July 22 @ 6PM
• Tuesday July 24 @ 10:30PM
• Wednesday July 25 @ 4PM
• Friday July 27 @ 8:30PM
• Saturday July 28 @ 6PM

Transcript

Welcome to episode 137 of Stageworthy, I’m your host Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more. Well, the Toronto Fringe Festival is done for another year, but there is so much more fringe ahead.

Performers are continuing on their way to the Winnipeg and other fringes, and I will be going to the Halifax fringe with my solo play The Commandment. So this isn’t the end of fringe talk. There’s also the Summer Works Festival ahead, as well as countless other festivals showcasing work by a multitude of indie artists.

You know, if you know somebody that you think I should talk to, I want to hear about them. They may not even be on my radar, and I want to make sure that I’m always talking to new and interesting theatre artists. So drop me a line on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram, where you can find the podcast at stageworthypod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. My guests this week are Carolyn Bennett and Jennifer McKinley of Double Down Helix, which opens this week at Kingston Storefront Theatre Festival.

Have you done the storefront? You’ve done the Toronto Fringe, but is this your first time, both of you, for the Kingston Storefront? It’s only been around for three years. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Okay, so it’s super new. Yeah, it’s super new. It’s my first solo show ever.

Okay. You know, I’m a stand-up comic, so… Are you recording right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ll just jump in.

Okay. Oh. No, don’t.

I want you to feel like it’s a conversation. It’s not an interview. We’re just going to shoot the shit, so don’t worry about it.

Hello, audience. Sit where you’re comfortable, and we’ll just go from there. My name is Carolyn Bennett.

I’m a writer and a comedian, and I’m here with Jennifer McKinley, my director. I like how you’re leaning into the mic as though it can’t pick you up from, like, one foot behind you. The volume is perfect, so you don’t have to worry at all.

This thing on. Yeah, that’s what I’m used to. You can tell you’re a comic.

Yeah, that’s what I’m used to. Eat it. In terms of, as your first solo show, Carolyn, because the commandment that I’m doing in Halifax this year, that’s my first solo show, what was it that drove you to do a solo show? The subject matter really appeals to me, and that is, to whom do you belong? Do we belong to science now, as is being proposed to us through the use of DNA kits? So the whole thing about defining family, defining who we are through our deoxyribonucleic acid, and the industry that’s been created around this, I found really interesting.

I do. I find it fascinating. And I just started writing, and if I had known that it would be this difficult to act, never in a million years would I have put myself out there.

You know, I think it’s super easy to write a show. No, no, no, okay, okay. This is Jennifer McKinley speaking now.

Jennifer, don’t take this the wrong way. Writing is its own thing. But I thought, when I wrote my show, I thought, I’m writing the fucking thing.

How hard will it be to learn the for this thing I wrote? Well, it is surprisingly hard. Because it’s a discipline. As I’m learning, acting is a discipline.

Writing is its own kind of revealing, its own kind of revelation, its own kind of emotion. It has its own logic, it has its own rhythm. As writers, we sit with our computer and our imaginations and our thoughts and create these worlds in our imagination.

It’s very sedentary. It’s very isolating. It’s agonizing, too.

It can be agonizing. I don’t know about you, but I spend, and Jennifer, I mean, I spend hours at the computer absorbed in what I’m doing. And then, oh, I better move.

I better go to the gym. I better eat something. But as far as getting it on its feet, as Jennifer says, I thought, okay, I’m going to challenge myself.

Because as a stand-up comic, I’m used to being in front of audiences. I’m used to performing. I’m used to writing a hell of a lot, memorizing.

I probably have a couple of hours of stand-up material. Have I done a couple of hours? Absolutely not. No way.

I think the most I’ve ever done is 45 minutes. But I thought, okay, I’m going to challenge myself and do this material. And I like the idea of a solo show that wasn’t stand-up.

So when I saw Jennifer’s show, Operation Sunshine, at the Feminist Fuck It Festival, I was very impressed with what I saw, her performance, her writing, the way she thinks, her politics. Not only that, but the way, here I am complimenting you. You’re just laughing.

She’s just sitting there laughing though. And the way that she was able to bring this subject matter about in such a compassionate and humourous way, in a deeply personal, but also very political about the sexualization of women, whether they know it or not. And I was really struck.

So when I got accepted into the Kingston Fringe, the storefront fringe, what do I know about directors? What do I know about solo shows? No clue. I mean, I could have asked one of my stand-up friends, but then I would have gotten a stand-up show. So I thought, well, who can I ask? And I know Jennifer because Jennifer directed one of my short plays for the New Ideas Festival at the alumni.

And I thought, well, I’m going to ask her. I really didn’t hold out any hope because I thought she’d be busy or something. But when she agreed, I was delighted.

Had I had known the rigours that she would put me through, I may not have been so eager in my ask. What kind of rigours were you put through? I wear kid gloves. You don’t even know.

You don’t even know. Kid gloves made with iron. So what are some rigours? Because I’m also coming from being directed by Clara McBride, who’s a very physical theatre library.

You just mentioned it, physical. I have to get up off the couch. I have to move my body.

I wasn’t prepared for the emotional aspect of the work. It is one thing to draw the emotion intellectually and silently in our isolation as writers. It is another thing to conjure it on stage, live, over and over again.

Jennifer will say, do that again. Do that again. I want to see that line again.

Do I have to? Yes. Because what I’m being pushed to do is find the emotional truth in the situation. Intellectually, it’s very easy to see that when you’re writing.

You’re constructing it. You’re setting the blueprint and the foundation. But getting it on its feet and feeling it in the body, that has been the biggest challenge.

From personal experience as a reader of Carolyn’s work before, before Carolyn wrote Sick Kids Want to Talk to You, which is what I directed, she wrote this other short play called Canis Familiaris. It was so weird and just wonderful. When we read these scripts for New Ideas Festival, we read them blind.

This one leapt out at me. I was like, oh, this is a sick puppy. It’s true.

The play is about a sick puppy, kind of. So Carolyn, I would describe Carolyn as an actor’s writer. When she talks about the work being an intellectual process, I would say, there’s a lot that’s left for a director and an actor to explore because her writing is very layered.

It’s not obvious because it’s a little bit on the dark side. It opens the comedy up to be more than just something that’s funny. It’s also really, really deep and layered.

I think that that’s why we both appeal to each other. Artistic collabourators. It’s actually been a pleasure when it hasn’t been painful.

It’s nice because she kicks my ass. I’m 20 years older than her. She’s kicking my ass.

I feel like saying, will you fuck off? But no, she’s my director and I have a lot of respect. When you say that, you knew that she was going to kick your ass. Yes, that’s why I asked her.

So although she’s pushing you towards what she needs to, but you did know it was- I signed up for it. I may at times resent it, but it’s only because of my own inertia and laziness and unwillingness to go there. I just hope that the end result entertains people, has them think, enlightens them.

All those things that we hope our work does. She’s very modest. It’s very funny.

I don’t care if it makes people laugh. I’m like, you’re a comedian. Yes, you do.

So we wrote this. But it’s not stand-up. The difference between stand-up and doing a solo show, I was thinking about it.

We were discussing it yesterday. When I do stand-up, I feel like I have to be in command, like master and commander sort of thing. You grab the mic and you stand and deliver.

This is what I’m going to talk about. You’re going to listen. My sole objective, well, I guess the main objective is to make people laugh.

As a comedian, you want to make people laugh. If you can get them thinking, she makes you laugh, she makes you think, she makes you think you’re laughing, that old thing. But if you can spark some intellectual life in them or get them thinking in a certain way, I never considered that, and introduce that kind of topic in a humourous way, I think that’s a very powerful means of communicating.

But again, the primary purpose is to make people laugh. It is that command aspect. Jennifer was asking about the motivation behind it.

I said, well, it’s fear, basically. It’s kind of like, I’m going out there and I’m going to make you laugh, and therefore, I’ve got that power over you, because you’re eliciting an immediate response through stand-up. This, on the other hand, she’s asking me about motivation or how do I feel about this.

She mentioned love and trust, which are foreign to a lot of stand-ups, because I was reading something in the Toronto Star today, Indigenous comedians. Should Indigenous comedians laugh at residential schools or some of the most painful and shameful aspects of our history? The answer is yes. If an Indigenous person wants to talk about that, they can talk about whatever they want.

Some of the best comedians are Indigenous, because it comes from a place of pain. That’s how comedians stay sane. It’s like, take a horrible situation, what are you going to do? You’re either going to jump off the boulevard or make light of the situation and get through it somehow gallows humour or vastly entertaining or whatever.

The solo show and exploring these other aspects of character and sadness and loneliness and weirdness, of course, and connection, for me as a stand-up, has been quite illuminating. I honestly didn’t think I could do this. As a matter of fact, George Walker, he’s been offering workshops for actors.

I thought, what the hell? I’m a huge admirer of his work, of his playwriting. I thought, okay, it’s a chance to hang out with George Walker. Sure, I’ll take his workshop.

George, I’m going to be honest, I didn’t learn anything about acting, but I learned about his playwriting and I learned about his process. I was talking about this project, Double Down Helix, and I said, well, because he read it and he said he liked it a lot. He said, who’s going to do this? I said, I’m just going to read it from a stand.

I’m going to wear a lab coat. He got so angry. He said, you can’t do that.

Are you crazy? He said, you need an actor. There’s a lot of text here. He said, boring, boring.

I was hurt. I was hurt because that’s how I saw this being performed. I said, no, I’m the scientist and I’ve got the lab coat and I’m telling the story.

Boring. I actually said, you’re mean. Then he texted me saying, I’m sorry if I was mean.

Then I had to write him back saying, no, you were absolutely right. That’s the thing. You’re right.

I’m a lame ass and I’m too late to find an actor now. I guess I got to do this thing. How long did it take you to realize that you were wrong? I was wrong the minute I said it.

Did you know that you were wrong the minute you said it? Two rehearsals. No, not really. I kind of thought I could get away with just reading it because I thought, well, it’s a friend show.

You can do whatever you want. I’ve never done this before. Then I thought, yeah.

It was Jennifer. If it wasn’t for Jennifer, then I might still be reading it off a stand when I’m wearing a lab coat. By the way, I’m not using a lab coat.

Jennifer says no. It’s funny because the stand is almost a crutch. I used it as a crutch the other day in rehearsal.

It’s a barrier between you and the audience. Remember that point that I said, I don’t think I need this stand. It was so gentle saying, no, you don’t.

You don’t need this stand. Nice. It was nice.

It was like training wheels. I let you ride around the block like a 10-year-old on a bike for a six-year-old. Now you’re 11 and we don’t need training wheels anymore.

It’s funny because for me, coming from the theatre world, I immediately saw that the stand is a crutch. I recently found out that in doing my own show, things like microphones are a bit of a barrier. How are you using the microphone? For my show, I only use it for a couple of moments.

At one point, we were using it for something else. The microphone is another way of, in some ways, separating you from the audience. Your voice doesn’t go from you to the audience.

Your voice goes through the thing and out the speaker and to the audience. There’s a separation between your voice and the audience, which was a thing that we learned. I learned about how important… Oh, my God.

When my director said, you know you’re going to talk to them, right? That means that you’re going to… Because they’re your scene partner, which means that you have to make eye contact with your scene partner. I had a nervous breakdown right there in rehearsal. They’re like, I’ve got to look at them.

But of course, he was right. Absolutely right. Just your first solo show? The Commandment was my first solo show.

Yeah, it was. Okay. Then you wrote The Parliamentarians? The Parliamentarians was something I did before that.

It’s not a solo show. Yeah. It was something I did.

I wrote it at the Red Sandcastle’s 24-hour thing. And then Rosemary asked if we wanted to produce it. And so we did.

That one’s not solo. But the Commandment was the solo. Right.

Yeah. That was four characters? Five people. Five people.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

But the amount that I learned performing solo is… I learned so much about the relationship between the performer and the audience. Right. Um… I understand what you’re saying about the microphone.

But that could be any technology. Oh, sure. That’s film.

Yeah. You know? I mean, for the longest time, I was much more comfortable with film. I was a reviewer for iWeekly.

And start reviewing films, folks. That’ll really turn you off the medium forever. Just after a that’s nothing but a barrier.

But you go into that. That’s the bargain. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But it’s also very, very powerful in its own right.

Yes. But yeah, theatre is ancient. And it’s just storytelling or creating this world.

But as far as stand-up, a microphone is. It’s the power thing. Sure.

It’s the phallic symbol. If you will. If you will.

Sure. But also, that gives you, like, you’re the loudest voice in the room now. Hopefully.

Hopefully. It’s a sports night, right? Well, yes. Well, if you’re doing comedy at the sports bar, then maybe not.

One of my gigs, one of my first gigs on the road, I was doing comedy in a sports bar. And I guess the owner forgot to tell the patrons that there was going to be comedy that night. So I’m in front of a dartboard, and people are throwing darts around me, you know? Oh, no.

And I’m dodging them with my little microphone. Thanks for bringing up that memory, Phil. Oh, I’m sorry.

I’m sorry about that. Sorry about that. Um, as a, as, as, when did you start writing theatre? Because you wrote, you said you were writing for, you wrote a play for The New Ideas.

So as a comedian, what drew you to write a play? You know, it’s kind of like stand-up was default. Stand-up is something that, I hate to say this, but it’s true. Anyone can do it, you know? There’s open mics everywhere.

So, okay, you want to go on, you want to call yourself a comic, right? Okay, we’ll put you on. Okay, here’s your five minutes, here’s your ten minutes, whatever. And then you get better and better.

Or not. I’ve always written plays, ever since I was a kid. Because it’s the voices, the voices in your head, it’s the voices in your head that speak to you.

And I listen to them, and then I just create the world in which they inhabit, right? My first, I wrote, I wrote a couple plays for CBC radio back in the 90s. When I lived out in Edmonton. So that was 92, I think.

I won a competition out there, and that was Mixed Media, that was the play. And then I wrote a radio, and then Pure Convenience, that was the other play. So a succession, so I would say, yeah, early 90s is when I started.

How old am I? What, what, what? I mean, as somebody who is sort of like always writing plays, like as a young person, younger person, when you started doing comedy, were you still like sort of leaning towards telling stories in sort of like the theatre, or did you try to put it all into stand-up? I was also working in television. By the way, folks, this is such a pleasure being asked all these questions. I get to talk about myself, and you know, Jennifer’s just sitting there, you know, nodding.

Why don’t you pipe up? Why don’t you say something? Well, we’re going to get to Jennifer. Okay, I just, it’s organic conversation, and we’re going to get to Jennifer. I mean, this is lovely, folks, and hopefully you’re fine.

I’m saying folks. Why am I saying folks? Because you’re old. I’m old, and I, and I, but I didn’t vote for Doug Ford.

I’m just, I’m just old. Um, what, what would we, uh, playwriting? Yeah. It’s litreature.

I mean, I’ve, I’ve written short stories. Oh, I don’t know if you know this. This is pretty exciting.

After this, I’m having my first novel published. What? By an actual publisher, I may add. That’s exactly how my, uh, my husband reacted.

What? That piece of insanity is going to be published? Yeah. That’s great. It was a shocker.

Absolute shocker. I wrote it 12 years ago at Humber School for Writers. I was part of that.

So that’s another story. But, but, so I’ve always been writing and I’ve always had a large output of, of imaginative work. I guess standup is the thing that, that I’m mostly known for.

And because like I said, it’s accessible, you know, like you don’t have to wait years to see it on stage or decades to see it on the screen. I can think of a joke or a bit and then, you know, go to an open mic or go to Yuck Yucks and give it a shot that night if I want to, you know what I mean? So, uh, so the longer pieces, the longer work, I guess I just always wanted to, uh, you know, write as a career. So I’ve been very fortunate to have been able to make a living off my creativity up until recently, I guess.

Uh, I’ve, I’ve taken some freelance work with the government and, uh, that’s its own entity, you know, but, uh, yeah, I’ve, I’ve done some speech writing for the government. It pays. Well, that’s the thing.

That’s the important part. Yeah. Question.

One more question about double. I’m sure there’d be more questions with Double Down Helix. How long did it take you to write it? Uh, not long at all.

No. Probably, uh, well to actually like barfing on the page was, you know, a week to hone it still being honed right now, uh, a month. Okay.

But the idea, somebody’s got to be writing about this right now. It’s so rich. Oh, there, there’s like, it’s in, it’s like, I’ve heard at least in various podcasts I’ve listened to, like, it’s come up like three times in the last two months.

As, as a theatre? No. Or just as a subject. Oh, I’ve been reading.

In terms of like, um, you know, what is this industry? What is this, this DNA test? This, what is like, what’s the accuracy like and all that sort of thing. What’s the accuracy and, and where does the information go? Yeah. You know, I, I don’t.

Did you read my press release I sent? I actually sent a press release folks. You see, I do work for the government. Um, yeah, it all came about that.

My sister sent her DNA spit off to, uh, Ancestry and then she wanted a sample from my brother. Who works for the government. And he said, of course not, I’m not giving you my DNA, the most private personal thing you could possibly hand over to God knows who, you know? And I just thought, yeah, like, what are you looking for? What, what exactly are you looking for? What kind of validation are you looking for? That’s, and I find it a little frightening and a little suspect.

And I may say nefarious. I will use that word. I think there were, it’s a nefarious thing.

Maybe I’m being paranoid. Maybe I’m being paranoid. However, you know, these DNA companies say we’re going to use the samples that we get for genetic research.

Yeah. You know, to let, let’s find out, you know, cures for new diseases. Let’s make up diseases and find the cures for them.

But they’ll, they have that genetic stuff that they can tinker around with and play around with. Right. I’m not very comfortable with it myself, because I think it just opens up a lot of questions and, you know, possibilities of abuse of the system.

And these labs, like, you know, like, like who knows how accurate they are? Who knows who’s, you know, dealing with our very, the substance of who we are, you know, the very thread of what makes us us, you know? There is every reason to be paranoid about that sort of thing. I mean, if we even look at the kinds of things that we agree to in our everyday lives, when we’re dealing with, with various websites and social media and the agreements that we are making with them in terms of what they can learn about us. And these same corporations want our DNA.

What the fuck are they going to do with that? I know, I know. And I was reading Google has a hand in some subsidiary of some conglomerate. They’re packing away the DNA samples.

I assume that Google has its hand in everything. Yeah, yeah. Up my ass? No, not yet.

Not yet. Give them, give them, give them time. Give them time.

I’m sure they’ll get there for all of us. I know. You can probably, like, live stream, like, some kind of colonoscopy or something, you know? I feel like that’s next.

100% that you, that you can. Because now, just, just now there’s Instagram TV. You could stream it live over Instagram, the entirety of it for everyone to watch.

But can I get a grant to do that? That’s my question as an artist in Canada. Of course, can you get a grant? Can I get a grant? Could partner with a professor and get a shirt grant, I’m sure. Sure.

Let’s write this down, folks. Yeah, this is great stuff. So soon we’re going to be seeing all these grants given to people to broadcast their colonoscopies and things over.

But it’s art. It’s art. Ooh, look at that kidney pollen.

It’s great. We’re going to get, we’re going to crowdsource our, our internal exams so that we can get, like, you know, the, the, enough doctors looking, we’ll actually get a diagnosis that means something. Well, why wouldn’t you want to know what the inside of you looks like actually physically, right? It’s like one of these great mysteries.

I’m good with not knowing. I’m perfectly happy not knowing. I’ve seen my, my colon live on screen and I don’t want to see it again.

I’m 100% okay with not knowing what it looks like up my asshole. You know, me too. Thank you.

I appreciate, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I’ll just say one more thing.

I wrote, one more thing. Unless you ask me for more, then I’ll just keep babbling. Are you still there, listener? Oh my God.

I hope so. I hope so. Uh, I wrote a play, uh, called Hitler’s Ass.

Now, why was it called Hitler’s Ass? Two reasons. Because it was about pretty much the same topic. Uh, scientists tinkering with our, the very stuff of who we are, and they took these two drug-addicted ravers and injected them with a serum that would, you know, give them everlasting life and life, they would just live forever.

And they just, oh, we just want to do drugs. And they didn’t know. So the scientists were experimenting on them.

That’s number one, why it was called Hitler’s Ass. And number two, it was a catchy title. This, the subject of science and human affairs has always interested me.

It’s something I studied in university. And more so now than ever, science and technology is such a huge part of our lives. I’m interested in how it changes us as people.

Um, the, the, the, the progress and the rapidity of the change. And, and I’m not anti-science. Far from it.

I, I love science. I love studying science. I was, I was telling Jennifer yesterday, my family, we grew up on the nature of things and CBC and all the, you know, the, the Nova and PBS and everything.

And my, I come from a family of scientists. I’m the only arts person in my family. Um, but I think, uh, I think we need to examine how it is changing us, changing the dialogueue, changing our language, changing our thinking, changing us as, as human beings.

And I would say that it’s been changing us since the industrial revolution, even the enlightenment. I just read a book about monsters. And so Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein came up, though that’s not really a scientifically, there’s no science in that book.

Right. Science fiction. It talks about the horrors of the new, the new science as it’s called.

So I think that, yeah, we’re just, we’re, we’re advancing so rapidly that we don’t have time to keep up. And, and there’s just so many questions. And so the one thing we can know is where we come from.

But that’s the thing. That’s what, what I think the whole DNA test plays on is that maybe you don’t know where you came from. Because that’s what people are trying to find out.

Like, where did I come from? Like, and like, where is my family? What’s in my DNA? As though it’s going to answer all of the questions. And I think that it doesn’t have all the answers. It has probably more questions.

I have read many articles about people who have taken these DNA tests and some of the incredible family secrets that have come from it and how it is just shaking them to the core, like shaking, like taking their, who they thought they were and just shaking them up and toss them out the window. One of the lines in the play is verbatim from one of these articles I read. Her brain had been blown and couldn’t be put back the same way.

That was from somebody who did one of these DNA tests and had these results come back to them. What? I’m what? I’m related to who? And I just remember the days where getting a DNA sample was a police procedural, you know? It wasn’t something that we, you know, surrendered willingly. No, no, it’s true.

Yeah. It’s true. Well, I mean, that sort of comes because we’ve been convinced by these corporations.

And here I’m going to sound like the paranoid one now. These corporations have convinced us. We’re all wearing tinfoil hats.

We should, really. Is that we’ve been convinced that the answers are in our DNA. And if we just give them our DNA and give them the right to look at it for other purposes as well, then we will have all the answers for who we are, where we came from.

Right. And my play is about that. We are more than our DNA.

It’s to whom do you belong? And I’m realizing at my advanced age, I’m 56. I’m not that old. But my idea of identity is completely changed.

I don’t want an identity. I don’t even feel like I belong to myself. I belong to this is so new agey, folks, but I belong to the universe, you know? And that’s the crux of the play is that, you know, like the magic flute.

I think about Mozart. I think about the fraternity, the brotherhood, the sisterhood of humanity. This body is on loan to me.

It’s on loan. And at this now, I’m taking care of it. Whereas in my youth, when I was younger, I was out to kill myself, out to abuse, you know, party, party, party.

Yeah. And I was headed for an early death, you know? So I cherish, I walk on the earth lightly and I cherish, try to cherish each moment because I know it’s going to come to an end. Yeah.

That’s not new agey. That’s ancient world. Yeah.

Okay. Those are pagan truths. Yeah.

I mean, it’s truth. And that’s, but we tackle it in a very humourous way. It’s not incredibly heavy.

It’s just, you know, thoughtful. Jennifer, as the director, one of the things that I’m, you know, I always want to know where people come from theatre, like why theatre? And so for you, like what brought you to theatre? What made you realize that theatre was going to be your life? I tried very hard to run away from it. Okay.

Yeah. Several times. And I just couldn’t get far enough.

Like, it was just like, I was running backwards on a treadmill or maybe in the direction of the treadmill, not going anywhere. So I started theatre when I was in my teens. I went to an arts high school and I say that that experience saved my life.

And then I left and graduated and I’m like, I’m not going into theatre. Like there’s no money in theatre. And then my third year of university, I realized I miss it.

And I had some friends who were in the fairly new Humber comedy program at the time. And I went to see some of their shows and they were, I mean, it’s student theatre, but just fantastic. So funny.

And a lot of those people are like working today. So they weren’t all wrong. So I was like, I miss it.

I want to get back into it. I went to Humber as well and was doing some comedy following that. And then, you know, I had a crisis of faith.

So get me away from this thing. And, um, and yeah, there was just, there was something that kept pulling me back. And I, I did a clown workshop, five week clown workshop with Sue Morrison in 2011.

And that was, that was it for me. So like a series of events happened in my life that, uh, uh, that I can’t talk about because I signed a non-disclosure agreement, but, um, um, yeah, no, since then, like I’ve just, I’ve just, I’ve been very lucky that I’ve just said yes to the thing finally. And so it’s like enriched me.

Like I never thought it could, like, you know, like if I could just take that 19 year old by the shoulders and say, patience, like it’ll come, don’t worry about it. Do what you want to do. What were you running away from? Do you think? It’s not an easy, it’s not an easy occupation or vocation or calling or whatever it is.

So I think that there were a lot of voices, legit voices saying things like, you know, there’s no money in this as though, like I started chasing a career for money. I didn’t, um, listen to that. And there, there aren’t really, there’s nobody in my family who identifies as an artist and lives their life that way.

Like even in, even in hobby form. Um, so, you know, you look around and it’s like, well, who, who is everybody? There are none. So it’s like difficult to choose a path when there, there are no pioneers before you.

Um, and, and yeah, no, I was just, I’m not gonna name the name of it, but I was in a really, uh, uh, I’ll use the diplomatic word, challenging friend show in, uh, years ago. And, uh, and I was like, I’m done. I’m out.

Um, and I, I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t have, but I was just feeling like that at the time. So, so those are the things I think that I was running away from. And then also like my ultimate self, like, you know, the, do I want to do this? As Carolyn was talking about, like this, this is pretty heavy.

What I want to do, what I, um, have inside me, I always call it like the monster inside. Like there really is a monster inside that needs to be let loose. And, um, and so the more that I, you know, do these things like direct or write or perform, or, um, I just recently undertook a collage art project.

Like the more that these things are coming out, then like, that’s not a monster anymore. So much as it’s like, you know, well, I would call it a problem child, but not a monster anymore. Oh, it’s manifest.

Is it, is it the fact that it, cause when you really want a thing, that can be a terrifying thing. Like you want it so much. What if you fail? What if, like, these are the reasons why people often don’t do the thing that they really want to do.

Cause it, it terrifies them because not only what if I succeed, but what if I don’t, there’s like so many things that are tied up in that, that it can be really frightening to just let that happen. I think, um, it’s a lot of work. That’s, that’s a thing you’ve kind of hear about the arts, about like when I was at Humber, like, oh, you’re gonna have to work really hard.

And you know, 10 years from now or however many shows or what’s the Malcolm Gladwell, like 10,000 hours. Right. So like, that’s, nobody wants to do the work.

No, everybody wants just the success right away. So, so that’s, that’s quite daunting. Um, and, and I’d say that’s also daunting for people who are familiar with the kind of like how taxing hard work is, you know, we were talking earlier about, um, doing our solo shows and self-producing and like, oh my God, do I really want to do this thing again? Like, do I really want to be my social media master? Do I really want to like be out there handing out flyers? Do I really want to like subject myself to, you know, being, being on stage and being vulnerable and, you know, and so the, I think that the, the rewards have to outweigh that, that fear in order to do it.

And so I would say for me, the fear outweighed the rewards for a super long time. And now it’s, it’s definitely tipped in the other direction. But, um, yeah, no, I, I think, I think just in, in conversations I’ve had with creative folks, it’s, it’s the work that’s, it’s, yeah, it’s just, it’s a lot.

It is a lot. It is a lot. Um, what, when, when you created your solo show, what, what was the impetus to make that a solo show? Um, I work best with myself.

Uh, I am always available when I’m available to rehearse. Um, I, clown is, well, clown is duo, clown is solo. So I’m like coming from that tradition, um, for sure is what it, that’s, that was the thing that pushed me forward.

Um, I spent, I’ve spent a lot of time writing and not just things that I perform, but, but also like writing and, and short stories or, um, I’ve been writing poetry as well. Um, and so because that’s such a solitary, uh, experience and, um, it just, it kind of made sense in the evolution of like, oh, well, what, what am I going to do? Yeah. Um, I, I’m kind of bored with revived shows, like shows that already have a life.

So I want to, and like I said, like that you’re a total recall fan, maybe, you know, like it’s like the quadro inside the grade for your mind. So that’s like trying to get out of me. And like, if I can give stage time to that, then that’s, it’ll save my life again.

Um, yeah, I don’t know. Like I, I, I love to be able to do the standup thing. I’ve, I’ve done it, but like not professionally, um, things that I write, I end up hearing my voice so strongly and I’m like, well, I got to get this in front of people and I want to be the talker here.

Um, and the show that I wrote was a personal show. Yeah. So like, you know, I asked you earlier also, is, is, is your show the commandment? Like, is it Phil? Is Phil the narrator? And you said, no, well, Jennifer’s the narrator.

Sure. So Jennifer’s the narrator, but there are also six other characters. So like, I also enjoy doing character work.

Like I found that when I was at Humber, um, that was where my interest lay in doing that. So yeah. And if I can, if I can present seven characters in 60 minutes or 80 minutes or whatever it is, then like, won’t people be impressed with me? That takes talent.

Was that, well, I mean, when you were, when you were creating it as a solo show, were you thinking like, well, well, if I can do this, will people be impressed with me? Or was there, was there something else? No, because I didn’t know what it was going to be when I was writing it. And so when we were rehearsing it, I was like, oh my God, these, these women are separate from me. And, and I got to reign them in.

I got to rope them in. Like it was more of, um, I have to, while it was being directed, I was like, okay, they, they need to live, but they also need to live so I can live. Yeah.

Uh, so let’s not go crazy with these, you know, hold them in. So yeah, no. I mean, like after the fact when I’m like done and it’s interesting, my first show was on my birthday, like a very special day, you know, talking about things that are personal to us.

That’s a thing that is personal. Um, it just, it felt really good. Like, it’s like, ah, here it is.

They like it. They really like it. Um, so that was nice.

That’s not why I did it, but that was just a really, really nice result. So you’ve seen Jennifer’s show when she portrayed all these women. I thought that is exactly not what I’m going to do because I know my limitations as an actor.

All my characters are going to be off stage and I will be talking to them. So in my, uh, in Double Down Helix, there’s only two characters. That’s not true.

The narrator and Patricia. Yeah, that’s not true. Well, there’s other characters, but they’re off stage.

The mother is not off stage. Oh yeah. No, she’s got me doing the three half siblings aren’t off stage.

Oh, that’s right. Oh yeah. Well, there’s more to this than you even think.

I completely forgot. And what about, what about the, the, the brother? Oh yeah. Okay.

You see, she’s making me act. How dare you? Yeah, I know. Oh, Jennifer, when you perform, after you performed it, I don’t know, but once I’d performed the commandment for the first time and it, once I like the first time doesn’t count because I was freaking out way too much to actually perform it well.

Second performance was like exactly what I could have, what I had imagined it to be. And after that, and after performing it a few times, I knew I just kept wanting to make shows like that. Just like me.

I want to write for other people too, but I really wanted to perform more solo. And I think it was, Carolyn, you talked about, about the power of the microphone. And for me, it was the fact that I could get up on stage and it would just be me and these people through my talking to them, I would take them on a journey and they would go where I wanted them to go emotionally.

Um, and there’s something hugely addictive about that, about just doing that with like your body and your voice. Did you, did you find something like that or? Absolutely. Um, I started writing another solo show, um, that’s on the, on the, on the shelf right now.

But I was like, I got it. I got it. Um, for me, um, I enjoy making people feel multiple things at the same time.

So like, I, and I think we’ve talked about this, Carolyn, like, I like making people laugh and also I like to wrench their guts. And if I can do that in the same line, then I have succeeded in, in my life’s calling. And you know, you, you see the old, um, you know, the, the, what is it? The laughter and the sorrow masks and drama.

Like I really would just like my art form merges those two so that you get both of them in the same span of time. It’s funny that you should say addictive. Stand up is very addictive.

As far as me doing another solo show, that, that will, uh, that is a, uh, to be determined. I think I, I would be willing to bet that after you’ve performed it, you will know exactly that you want to do it again. But it’s funny that you should talk about you, you kind of lost interest in writing for other people.

I, I didn’t, I didn’t lose interest in writing for other people. I still want to. But you prefer to do the solo work.

When I’m writing for myself, I write for solo. If I want to write for more, like I, there, I have ideas. Some ideas are for me and some ideas are for groups of people.

But are you more drawn to solo now? Right now I am. Yeah, right now you are. Right now I am.

So those are the things that are sort of like on the front burner with the back burner being some of the other, some of the other things. Right. I, I am, I was in the Thousand Islands Playhouse, um, playwrights unit last year and, uh, I worked on a play called The Monarchists.

That was immensely satisfying because, you know, it’s just a germ of an idea and, you know, you’re, you’re writing an entire, uh, full length play with these characters interacting with each other and dealing with an issue and this and that. My preference would be that. And, and then I wrote a screenplay that won an award.

Again, it’s like, I’m going to set the, the, the world for these people, right? You know, like hopefully somebody is going to come to Kingston and see Double Down Helix and say, you know, you, you did a, you did a good job because right now, um, yeah, it’s all, it’s just you. Yeah. You’ve got to create this world all on your own.

And it’s. But when you’re able to do that in front of an audience and that’s when it becomes like, I just need to do more of this. And I found it more challenging to write a solo piece than for like a play with like multiple characters, because if I get stuck with the, with this play with multiple characters, I can just have somebody walk into the room and everything will change.

The dynamic will change. That’s a little bit harder when like my limitation is like, it’s just me. Yeah.

Um, so yeah. It’s challenging. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, they both have challenges, but there’s something about like, I don’t know, in the end doing this thing and like taking people on the journey is, is hugely addictive. I’ll take your word for it.

Oh, if you had told me this before I performed it, I would not. Cause I felt like I was going to vomit. Like that day before, I don’t know if you found this.

Oh, every day, every performance day. Oh, I don’t find every performance day, but the first time. I can’t wait to do my show.

The first time I was going to perform it. I had all these plans. It’s going to be such a great day.

I was going to see some, a bunch of shows at the fringe and then I was going to go and I was going to take like an hour before mine and I was going to take some time and then I would do my show. And, but the day came and I was like, I think I’m going to throw up today. So I’m not going to do anything except get ready for the show.

But that was that day. And then the next day, cause I’d done it and I didn’t need to be afraid of it anymore. Cause I knew I could do it.

Okay. Question for you guys. Yeah.

Tips on how to deal with the fringe and your own solo show. Survival tips, please. Drink a lot of water.

Sleep. Sleep. Take a bath, like soak your muscles.

Like I would say, take care of yourself. Know how draining it can be to talk about your show and then perform the show. And make sure you give yourself time.

Some people can go from flyering, walk in and do their show. Jam rolls can do that. But very few of us are jam rolls.

And you have to make sure that you, while promoting your show, also give yourself enough time. Yeah. Breathe through that anxiety.

I want to throw up right now, listening to you guys. That’s no, but like, this is the thing is like, once you’ve done it, you’ll be fine. Yeah.

It’s just that for me, it’s like, it’s just that first time. I was like, I am going to throw up today. This is what’s going to happen.

And I was afraid I was going to like, I was going to do it. On stage. I didn’t think I would do it on stage.

I thought I might do it at the back of the house before the show. I thought for sure that maybe I would have to ask somebody to have a bucket nearby or something. Hydrate is, hydration is very important because your mouth is going to get super dry.

So dry. I didn’t have water on stage when I did my show. Like I was like, I don’t have water on stage.

And Claire was like, no water on stage. I’m like, but I’m going to be so thirsty. But there’s no time in my show to take a drink.

There’s no time. So your show at the Fringe was 90 minutes. It was 80.

It was 80 minutes. And then at the Feminist Bucket Festival. It was 55.

That ran in, uh, yeah. I had to cut it. Do they only give you 55 minutes? They only gave me 60 minutes.

And so I was like, cut, cut. I’m merciless about cutting. I was like, you know what? I’m going to do this again.

This is going to be a great experience to see what the show is in 60 minutes. Like if I have to pack it up on my back and take it to another city. Where it’s a 60 minute thing.

When I was doing earlier workshops of my piece. I remember doing like seven minutes of it. Which was, I’d written a short story.

And I did it at a crapshoot at Theatre Passemarais. And I had no moisture in my mouth. And I was like, they can hear it.

My consonants sound weird. Like my tongue is sticking to various places in my mouth. I didn’t have as much of that during the run of the fringe.

I was very, very conscious of my water consumption leading up to show time. So just backstage. Just make sure your mouth is moisturized.

Like just put some moisturizer on it. But none of this like lip X, balm X, whatever that is. That should allow you to pull all the moisture out of your mouth.

Nothing with, Blistex. That’s it. Avoid Blistex.

Go natural. Beeswax all the way. Unless you’re vegan.

Then don’t do beeswax. Do some kind of coconut oil. But yeah, you’ll need some of that.

And like, you know, even grease up your gums. Should I stop taking my meds? No. No.

Double down. Also, one thing that I would say is like, be conscious of when you’re eating in the day. Yes.

Especially, I don’t know how physical your show is. But if there’s any physicality to it, don’t be like, before the show, I’m going to have a double burger with fries and I’ll have a big, like, just like give yourself time for digestion before this or eat light. And because I always find myself ravenous after the show, regardless of what time it is.

So I’ll like eat lightly beforehand because I know I’m going to like. Possibly vomit. Well, maybe.

And if you go and you eat like a double burger before the show, you’re probably going to vomit during the show. Clarissa’s eat a banana beforehand. Yeah.

That’s a Mick Jagger thing, isn’t it? Is it like cognac and bananas and some 20-year-old model from some beautiful country? That’s what Mick would do. Let me write this down. That’s what Mick would do, the 20-year-old model.

That’s, yeah, there’s, yeah, I think that in terms of fringe survival tips, it’s really self-care because a lot of people forget about the self-care. You get caught up in promoting the show and talking to people about the show and performing the show. So you don’t think about drinking enough water or eating well and things like that.

Well, the one advantage is that this is the Kingston storefront fringe, and I think it’s its third year. So it’s small. I think there’s only 17 shows.

What is it in Toronto? Something like that. Last year was 160. Yeah, there’s more this year because of the extra site specifics this year.

Wow, it’s a lot of theatre. But that’s not, I mean, it’s not even the biggest. Have you been to Edinburgh? I’ve been to Edmonton.

Edmonton scares me. Edinburgh makes me want to like just vomit just thinking about it. Did you read that article that came out a year ago? It was like a blog.

It was a woman who was participating in the Edinburgh. She had a solo show, and she fell ill because of the experience. And she had to back out.

And she was having major anxiety about it. And they’re like, OK, bye. And she’s like, OK.

No, but it’s like, you know, there’s like what? Like 2,000 shows in Edinburgh? And it runs for a month? Like Edinburgh is like this massive machine. Then like, how are you going to get noticed? I don’t know. I think also nobody makes money in Edinburgh.

Only the venues make money in Edinburgh. Edmonton is massive. I mean, not Edinburgh massive.

But it’s like, I think the Army said there might have been like 250, 300 shows. But it’s such a progressive city. But it was still like, you can do really well in Edmonton, you know? Yeah, it was the first Fringe in Canada, right? Yeah, it was.

First Fringe outside of Edinburgh. Oh, OK. So I mean, that’s why like if you’re looking around North America and you see there’s a Hollywood Fringe and an Orlando Fringe.

And oh, they’re part of the Canadian Fringe Circuit. Like they’re part of the CAF members. In the States.

So is there something that you are… What are you most looking forward to about presenting the Double Down Helix? Yeah, when it is 61 minutes. 61 minutes later, what am I looking forward to? Being in Kingston, you know, I specifically chose to be outside of Toronto. I never even thought of Toronto.

Because this is my first attempt at anything remotely different as a performer. And I thought, I don’t want anyone seeing me in Toronto, you know? And I… Jennifer just laughed at me. It’s freedom, you know? It’s freedom.

I’m going to go to a new place. It’s storefronts, right? So the largest audience capacity is 60. So say 10 people show up, it will seem like a lot.

That’s true. Yeah. I’m looking forward to moving people, to having them laugh and appreciate the story.

That’s the hope. Yeah. It’s too bad Jennifer won’t be around because she’s away.

I have… We have a great young stage manager. Her name is Natasha Rotundaro. And she’s originally from Toronto.

But she’s a student out of Queens in their theatre department. And thank God we found this stage manager who is in Kingston. Because I don’t know anyone in Kingston.

I know a couple comedians in Kingston. But I have no connection to Kingston. But I’ve been thinking about Eastern Ontario as a place to relocate.

I’ve been in Toronto for 30 years. And I don’t know. Chasing that conservative government out east.

I don’t know. What conservative, what? I know, I try to forget it too. What, what, where? Will Eastern Ontario blue other than Ottawa and its environs? I don’t know.

Everything is blue. Everything is blue. Everything is blue outside of the downtown Toronto area.

Speak. Sure. I don’t know.

I don’t know. You want to smuggle cigarettes across the Quebec border? Across Quebec? Who doesn’t? Yeah, who doesn’t? That’s where the real money is. Yeah, pretty soon we won’t have to like smuggle pot or drugs.

It’ll all be legal. No, we’ll be smuggling it over to the States. That’s right.

Yeah. I mean, not me. I have to cross the border sometime soon.

So not me. Not me, NSA. Are you taking your show to the States? No, I’m not.

I know. Sometimes I travel across. I travel to the States for my day job.

And so. What is your day job? I work for a company that does apps for conferences and things. Oh, you’re in here? No, that’s just it.

It’s a cool logo he’s wearing. I work for a company called Eventmobile. We do apps for conferences and events.

And so sometimes I go to the event and. Oh, right. Could be fun.

Yeah. It’s like AR. You use AR? Uh, well, it’s like the, you would find your like, oh, what’s my schedule? What’s the.

Practical things. All the practical things. Although there’s sometimes we have games in it and stuff.

But it’s like, you know, we go and support the app. And so I sometimes get to travel to fancy places. Like Syracuse? I have not been to Syracuse, but we’ve done.

As glamorous as Syracuse. Oh boy. So yeah, all the good stuff.

Jennifer, what are you like? What are you looking forward to as you get to this? Like once Double Down Helix heads off towards Kingston, what are you looking for? What are you looking forward to seeing as it grows and gets ready for performance? Um, I’m looking forward to, and I totally understand this and this isn’t any kind of like slam against you, but I’m really looking forward to, um, Carolyn being, um, off book. And she mentioned earlier that we’re still, she’s still editing and that’s totally fine. Pre-negotiated.

Um, because once that’s kind of like, and I know that for my own, like, as you know, my own actor brain, like once you’ve got the lines, then a different type of world can open up or like open up, sorry, open up wider than, than it has. Um, I feel like Carolyn has been echoing where I was a year ago when she says, I’m not an actor. I’m not an actor.

Cause I don’t consider myself to be an actor either. And, um, and, and so hearing people say, yeah, yeah, you are. You can’t say that anymore.

So I’m hoping that Carolyn feels that as well. Um, although it might take, it might take maybe another crack at the show, another run at the show for her to feel like that. Um, and the process of directing for me and also being directed, it’s like really wonderful because it’s like, Carolyn has called it sculpting.

I also feel like it’s pulling back the layers of an onion. Right. And so if you’re, if you’re delicate and you have the time to do it, you can like really pull so much out of like, I don’t even know what they’re called, but like they peel and they’re very thin and there’s just, there’s a lot of stuff there.

So, um, yeah, I think discovering everything that’s hidden in those folds and every time we rehearse something new comes out. So we’ve got, how many rehearsals do we have left? Maybe six rehearsals, eight rehearsals we have left, something like that. So, um, that’s eight more opportunities to, to really find what drives the main character and, and, uh, and find also the little ticks in the narrator who.

So, you know, it’s interesting when you’re saying I’m, I’m not off book. I was rehearsing today in the park and completely off book. Like when I’m reading, like just doing the lines, right.

But it’s when you throw in all the emotional stuff. Right. Walk here, turn on your heels, say this now.

Oh yeah. The blocking and the physicality that it’s funny just to hear Jennifer like burst out laughing at moments. You know, one of the things that’s interesting, what I always found interesting was how easy while trying to learn lines, how easy it was for me to know all of the lines.

Yes. If I had a script in my hand, I would even not look at it. Yeah.

Yeah. But that crutch of having it there, but then I would put it, put it away and all of a sudden, uh, what’s the first line? You know, it’s going to be a great run at it when that’s the first thing you say when you walk on stage. Oh, I know.

I’m totally anticipating it. Well, thanks a lot, you guys. This has been great.

Oh, thank you very much for having us. Yep. And, uh, good luck with your show and, uh, for the people out in, uh, podcast land, Double Down Helix is at the Kingston Storefront Fringe Festival.

It runs from July 21st to the 28th. Please consult with the local media in Kingston. Venue number three.

That’s right. Thank you. This has been a Homebody Productions production.