Madeleine Brown
Madeleine Brown is a Toronto-based actor. Select acting credits: Imp (Filament Incubator/Epigraph Collective), Seasons (Toronto Fringe), Madeleine Says Sorry (Toronto Fringe), She Kills Monsters (Orphaned Egret) and Rowing (Chrysalis Workshop/Then They Fight/Filament Incubator). A Loran Scholar and 2016/2017 Nightwood Theatre Young Innovator, she is a graduate of Sheridan College/UTM and has trained with Theatre Gargantua, Mermaid Theatre, Second City and Pro Actors Lab. She serves as a volunteer with L’Arche Toronto’s Sol Express, a performance troupe for adults with developmental disabilities and has assisted under such directors as Diana Leblanc and Tamara Bernier Evans. Her debut play, Madeleine Says Sorry, premiered at the 2017 Toronto Fringe.
When Beatrice Little sinks her potato-based start-up, she must ascend the ranks of an imposing pyramid scheme in order to rebuild her career.
From the “whip smart” losers behind 2017 Toronto Fringe sellout, Madeleine Says Sorry, comes a twisted comedy about entrepreneurial failure, commercialized feminism and how to sell a shit-ton of t-shirts.
Tickets: https://fringetoronto.com/festivals/fringe/event/everyone-wants-t-shirt
Transcript
Welcome to episode 132 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.
This episode, I’m returning to Toronto Fringe coverage, and there are a lot of great conversations coming up that you won’t want to miss, so make sure that you never miss an episode of Stageworthy, and the best way to do that is to subscribe to the podcast. Subscribing is easy. All you have to do is to go to Apple Podcasts, Google Music, or the new Google Podcasts app and search for Stageworthy, and click the subscribe button.
And if you like the podcast, I would love it if you would leave a comment or rating because your comments and ratings help new people find the show. Two of the episodes that you will not want to miss are the Toronto Fringe Roundups, which will be coming to you on July the 7th and the 14th. Each of these episodes will be a conversation with a group of Toronto Fringe artists, and we’ll talk about their shows, their experience at the Fringe so far, and what shows they’ve loved.
Those episodes are recorded and released on the very same day, so Fringe news is as up-to-the-minute as it can be. If you want to drop me a line, I would love to hear from you. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at stageworthypod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. If you want to drop me a line, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter at philrickaby, and my website is philrickaby.com. This week, my guest is Madeleine Brown, the playwright of Everyone Wants a T-Shirt, which you will find at the Theatre Passe Muraille Backspace as part of the 2018 edition of the Toronto Fringe.
Well, even for us, you know, we’re at Theatre Passe Muraille Backspace, and we’re like, oh, it’s good that we’re close to the tent, and that’s like we’re in the neighbourhood, but even being within the neighbourhood, we’re still cognizant of being extra in the neighbourhood. Yes, well, I mean, I always felt like when they were at Honest Ed, that having the proximity to the club, if you were in the annex or the bathroom street, whatever they call it, the Randolph Theatre, that that was like a huge, like you were in like a prime location, and being able to just go over and go, we got a show coming up in 20 minutes, who wants to come and see it, you know? Unless your show was sold out, you know, you were lucky, but yeah, you know, that worked out, you know, who knows what it’s going to be like now. Yeah.
Did you, did you, did you get out, I didn’t get out to the Fringe Club last year. I, yeah, I did, I slightly less, that was my third Fringe, and that’s slightly less than previous years, but I quite liked it. I mean, I liked the openness and the exposure you had in terms of you walked in and you could see everyone and everything.
I mean, but there was also a beauty to the alleyway in terms of having little crevices like that. But no, I quite liked it. And there’s something quite bright and really in it that I felt compared to previous years.
Yeah. I mean, I always have, for me, it’s, I’ve always felt that the, the Fringe Club is a little bit inside baseball. Oh, for sure.
Well, half the time I don’t like going, because I know that I’ll be like, oh, I should probably talk to someone. Well, that’s my favorite. I don’t really want to go.
Yeah. And if I’m going to go, I really feel like I have to have a show to talk about. And I think what’s interesting is, is there are other fringes where the Fringe Tent is for patrons.
And oh, really? Yeah. Like Winnipeg and Edmonton. Yeah.
The only time you go to the Fringe Tent or to the beer tents are to flyer for your show. Really? Yeah. The artists have other places they go.
Right, right, right. In Winnipeg, there’s this pub called the King’s Head. Okay.
And in Edmonton, there’s the dialiest of dive bars called Steel Reels. Everybody loves it. It’s disgusting.
Yeah, yeah. But everybody loves it. Right.
And it’s sort of like, I think they love it because it’s like, nobody goes here. This is our place. Right.
So it’s like completely off the beaten path. Yeah. And people look forward to it.
And some people even eat there. They’re braver than I. Yeah, because it’s so diving. It’s a super diving place.
Yeah. It has so much. Everybody loves it so much.
Yeah. What are the, like, because when you contacted me, you’re like, I’m doing a couple of shows. So what are you, what are you working on? What am I working on? So I have, I have two that I actually did kind of with the same groups of people last year.
So the first one is one that I’m writing and I’ll be acting in. And that’s kind of with my own, I say company very loosely. We just have to, as we often do, make up a name and you’re like, I guess this is our name now.
Exactly. Yeah. So that’s one that I work on with my friend, Aaron Jan, who’s done French privacy and we’ve worked together before.
Yeah. So he dramatizes the work and then he’ll direct it. So that one is called everyone wants a t-shirt and that’s about a four person comedy.
And then the other show I’m working on is with a group, there’s an organization called L’Arche and they’re based, they have locations, you know, worldwide. And it’s a whole philosophy of housing and programming for adults with disabilities kind of under the sort of field of like, you know, living in community and how, you know, we can kind of live together. So they have a performance troupe called Soul Express that I’ve been volunteering with for two years now.
And last year they were, they participated in the fringe kind of a, usually they perform, we always devise shows every year, but normally it’s just within the large community. It’s quite small, just a and kind of did a lot in terms of doing relaxed performances, touch table, different, really making accessibility a big thing. Cause that’s, you know, the majority of our cast are members of this troupe who have disabilities.
So it’s, you know, important to make sure that it’s accessible for the performers. So yeah, anyways, so we’re back again this year doing kind of phase one of a longer term project. Okay.
And that one’s called freedom makes me think about, sorry, birds make me think about freedom. And when you say that it’s part of phase one of a larger project, is it like a work in progress? Is it something that’s going to be larger, bigger as it goes down the road? Yeah, I would say so. We so interestingly, the show is inspired by, I only learned about it through context of working on it, but there was a Heronia was an institution in Ontario where people with disabilities were sent often, you know, different points in their lives.
And it was just horrible conditions. It was promoted as a hospital school, but in reality it was, you know, very bad conditions. People were poorly mistreated.
So several years ago there was, um, a class action lawsuit against it and money was given out to survivors who were able to demonstrate sort of what they’d gone through there, which, you know, in itself is a difficult point if that, that can, you know, depending on kind of who you have supporting you to be able to make that claim. So a lot of money wasn’t given out. And then from what I gather, money that wasn’t given out was taken back and, uh, the government had to figure out what to do with it for the money that wasn’t claimed.
So it was then given out as grants to different organizations to do sort of projects that would promote or being, you know, kind of in support of, uh, you know, be worthwhile considering it wasn’t able to make it to survivors. So L’Arche and Soul Express specifically has minded to develop a show based on the reflections and experiences of survivors. So we’re doing Fringe just because of the scope and the pressure of that kind of project.
We, you know, Fringe will kind of be like a good phase one, and then eventually we’ll be able to do something, you know, figure it out further beyond there. Fringe will give you, gives you the good opportunity to put it in front of, in front of some friendly eyes and get immediate feedback. Yeah.
So it’s a good workshopping opportunity. Yeah, totally. Tell me about everyone gets a t-shirt.
Everyone wants a t-shirt. Everyone wants a t-shirt. Yes.
Uh, it’s, so last year was my first time writing a play. Uh, and that was purely because Aaron said you should write a play. Uh, and I got Fringe and it was sort of fluky.
And so we had a good time. Yeah. And then I applied for Fringe again and got in again and was sort of slightly horrified.
You are one of the lucky. I know. I honestly, I never expected it.
And I apply, I mean, that was, that was my, I think I applied one year, didn’t get in. Yeah. And I just thought, Oh, you know, it’s a good exercise.
If I get in forces me to write something. So anyway, so that came along. At least you’re one of those people that writes something before they apply.
Oh no, I don’t do that. No, I don’t do that. No, no, not at all.
No, I get in and go, no, I have six months. What am I going to do? Uh, see, I’ve always, I’ve always only ever, and this is why whenever I go to the lottery, I feel like it really means a whole lot to me because I’m like, Oh, I have this thing. I really want to perform.
And I don’t get in. Yeah. And I, I feel really kind of upset.
And other people are like, Oh, I don’t write anything until I get into it, until I find out if I’m in. And I’m like, is that the trick? Is that have low expectations? That’s my approach to life. I just go low expectation.
Okay. Anything above it is great. So did you last year, did you do the same thing? I did the same thing.
And Aaron was Aaron your, your partner in crime, uh, or your enabler then as well? He, yeah, he was, we, uh, so we’d worked together a couple of times. He’d written a show called rowing, which we did like three times across like the Toronto, the Hamilton fringe and in Toronto. And so we became friends over that process.
And then at some point he said to me, it all became prompted because as we got to know each other, he said, Oh, Madeline, you’re a really terrible person. You should write a play about that. He means it in the, uh, I take it in the kindest way possible, but I just, you know, I think as people get to know me, I have sort of, uh, that’s my sensibility.
I just have a blunt sense of humor or a very, a sort of general cynicism about the world, you know? Uh, so he said, you should write a play. And I said, okay. And he said, it should be called Madeline says, sorry.
And that’s all he kind of gave me. He was like, that will be the title. Or I think he probably, I, it maybe said like Madeline, something like that anyway.
So I got into fringe and he was like, okay, well, this is it. And I was like, Oh, wow. Okay.
So it started as, I think I was going to write a one woman show. And then I just, the cliche of one woman fringe shows kind of got to me. And I thought, no, I can’t do that.
So it became a two person show. And it was about, um, a woman who, uh, loses a role to a dog in a Shakespeare play is very riled up about it. So kidnaps the dog and gets in all this trouble and the kind of last stage, they’ve tried to reprimand her and they just can’t.
So she’s sent to this made up apology clinic and has to come up with an apology for this dog. So the whole play is her at this clinic with the man who runs the clinic and trying to get her to genuinely apologize and sort of what comes out of that and just sort of then talking about, you know, what does it mean to be genuine and what So we did it very like, this is for fringe. We’ll never do it again.
That’s it. You know, and, uh, it turned out we sold way better than we ever thought. You know, a week before fringe, I was convincing myself because it was always my money in it.
I was like, you know what, if I lose the money, learning experience, whatever. So when we made our money back and we profited, I was like, Oh God, you know, it was like, it was a great high. So, and that kind of also got me prior to that, you know, I’d always, I trained as an actor, but I’d always been a keen writer.
You know, I liked writing, writing essays in university. I didn’t hate that I wrote for the university newspaper and it kind of blogged and done report writing for various administrative jobs otherwise. But it was Aaron who was sort of like, why don’t you put those things together? Or why don’t you know, you have something to say, why aren’t you, this is a good platform to do that.
So because of a good experience last year, I thought, you know, I’ll write something again. And then, you know, getting into the lottery prompted all that. So I would say a lot of my own thematic interests kind of were developed in that first play where everyone wants a t-shirt is another female character who is, has her heart set on this startup she’s come up with about where she’s going to, I fully admit, I loosely stole the idea from a thing called potato parcel.
If you’ve ever heard of it, but it was on a shark tank, one of those dragon den type shows. Anyways, she has this potato based startup. And she basically right off the top of the play bankrupts it and it ends.
It’s a big passion project. So she out of money and kind of out of hope, joins a friend’s company where she sells t-shirt with feminist slogans on them. And then it’s kind of the journey of her selling these t-shirts and this philosophy and kind of what comes of that whole process.
And then in doing so also keeping hold on to her own sort of interests and values in that sense. So that’s where I am right now at that point. Have you worked in this startup world at all? I have, I haven’t personally.
I think a lot of what I’m drawing on in that sense is sort of artistic, like I know what it means to be entrepreneurial in terms of I think every artist has to be. And you have to sort of identify what are my values? What am I interested in? Otherwise, I have friends who are in business or that world who I admire from afar and go like, I don’t know how you do that. But I was conscious about, I think I came out of being interested in legitimately being interested in sort of the politic you can put on t-shirts.
And then thinking, okay, well, who would be in that world? And what would the context be if that was your livelihood? And that’s where the startup and all that other stuff kind of came in. You know, can I ask you about your, when you were thinking about writing your first one as a solo play and what it was, you said, you know, the cliches of that sort of scared you off. What was it about a solo play that made you first off think about wanting to do one and not want to do it? Well, because I think the topic was very me.
Like I knew I was going to be playing me. And when I started, because I come from more of a like journalistic writing background, I was just writing in my voice, written a lot of like, you know, like personal essay blog form. So I was like, well, I don’t know how to write dialogue.
I know how to write my own voice. So I know how to write like, you know, several pages just about my own thoughts. So I think that’s why solo called me in that sense.
And then I, I just, there’s so many great spoofs of one person shows. Like I was thinking of, you know, I I’m trying to get the time. I guess La La Land, she does that.
There’s the scene, you know, where she does her show and you just sort of, you’re, you’re cringing a little bit. And then, you know, I saw Big Sick. I wouldn’t have had Big Sick in mind when I was writing this past summer, but he has this terrible one man show.
It’s just like that thing. So, and I think I just never take myself seriously. I think that’s part of also where my own sense of humor comes is that, and you know, it’s hard as an artist, you really have to take yourself seriously.
I think to a certain degree, you have to, because if you don’t take yourself seriously, why is anybody else going to take you seriously? Exactly. You can take yourself seriously, but also have a sense of humor about it. Yes.
Yes. And I think I was just writing a solo show and I was probably, and the show ultimately became very self-deprecating and I think it was at that point, but I just thought, Oh, I just can’t. And I think also being an actor too, I know what it’s like to have somebody else on stage supporting you, someone driving you further.
And I couldn’t figure out, I think it’s supposed to be the audience in the case of a solo show, but I just couldn’t figure out. I thought, no, I just, I can’t do it alone. It’s so rare.
I mean, I’ve seen a lot of solo shows. Yeah. In Fringe, if I’m in a lineup and somebody comes up and the first thing they say to me is, let me tell you about my show.
It’s the story of my struggle with, I’m not going to see the show. Exactly. I’m not going to see the show.
And I’ve seen shows where they talk at the audience, but you need to talk to the audience. They’re your scene partner. And I’ve seen so few shows where that happens.
When I did my solo show, that was the thing, my director was like, your audience is your scene partner. I was like, no. And I was fucking terrified, but it was super rewarding.
Again, I wasn’t writing about me. I was writing fiction, which is like, because I didn’t want to be going up to people saying it’s the story of my story or whatever, which is a tough one. It’s a terrible, I saw some great, I’m thinking too, what might’ve also started me on this, I saw some really great, 2016 was a year that I saw like three solo shows that I was like, I saw one at Progress.
I don’t remember the name of it, but it was a Canadian guy based in the UK now who did this, told this long story, seated at a desk, spoke in a very like shrill pace. And then he ended the whole thing with this amazing, I think it was punk rock set where it just got progressively louder and the lights got, and it was just amazing. Don’t know what the name, but it really, and then I saw Daughter and I saw Lessons in Temperament in the summer.
And they just both also caught me in terms of like, wow. And ultimately what might’ve inspired me to then write in that form probably also deterred me. And I was like, oh, I can’t, I don’t know how to write Lessons in Temperament.
How does a guy do that? It took me eight years to write mine. Oh, I can imagine. It’s like, it’s not for me, it’s like, it’s not something that I can just churn out.
This shit takes time. But again, you’ve got people who do it, who do it brilliantly. And I can definitely see like losing the will to do it after a while, especially when you’re like, I have, it’s February, I have.
That’s exactly it. So when you started writing it, was it difficult, like, was it difficult for you to give up on the idea of the solo player or was it really easy? Oh, it was a relief. I think once I was writing one scene, because it was all about me.
And there was one scene, because Aaron and I basically, we’ve done the same thing this year. Maybe it’s been more so two week deadlines, but we meet once a week. So I’ll write something and then he’ll come back and we’ll talk about it.
And I’ll be like, why this, why that? So there’s one scene that I was writing and he’s like, try writing it as a dialogue. And I kind of always had in mind, a friend of mine, Tony Perpuse, who ended up being in the show with me. And he was with me, actually, when I found out that I won the lottery.
I kind of, even though I wrote it as a solo show, I always pictured him present. I have no idea. But now that I think about it, I’m like, why did I picture, but he was always silent.
So I was writing one scene and he’s like, you know, why don’t you write it and do dialogue between you and Tony? And I was like, okay. And I did that. And I went, oh, this isn’t awful.
I thought this was going to be awful. And then I immediately was like, all right, the solo show is out. I’m just going to do this, you know? And then I think I wondered too, like, what was the point of the silent character anyways? I think that was just a little bit of me being subconscious and being like, it’s not totally a solo show.
Look, there’s somebody else here, you know? It sounds like I need a scene partner. Yes. Yeah.
I don’t think I can make the audience that. Yeah. Yeah.
So I just eventually gave him a voice and then I went, all right, that’s good. You know? And when you somehow, when you got into the fringe this year, did you have any idea when, when, when the lottery happened, what you might write about? A little bit. I had, so after having a good time at fringe, I was like, I want to write something else.
And then I took the fall to do my first time applying for recommender grants, none of which I got, but it meant I spent like two months trying to articulate some sort of idea, which became an amazing exercise in like, oh, what am I going to do? So I think I was caught on wanting to write. I was just going, oh, what am I interested in right now? So I was like, I really, I’ve always been interested in food, always wanted to write a food play. So I thought I want to do a food play.
And you know what I love for being the cynical person I am. I love romantic comedy and I want to subvert that genre somehow. So I was, I was thinking about writing a play about a girlfriend who essentially makes a soup out of her ex-boyfriend in some way over the course of the play.
I, I can’t, so I wrote about it endlessly in all these grant applications and I was kind of half there. And that’s the play I started writing when I got into the lottery because I thought, oh, this is what I’m thinking. And I probably had written maybe a quarter of it at that point.
So I wrote about two drafts of it and then went, oh, I don’t know how this is going to end. And I also was writing it and thought, I think this might be a two act. I don’t think this is going to be under an hour anyways.
So I just threw it aside. And then I started writing a play about two people interviewing for a graduate scholarship, like a kind of Rhodes-esque scholarship. And I wrote that and then I went, oh, this is very similar to the play I wrote last year in the sense that it was two people in one room in real time kind of debating.
And then I went, oh, that’s out the window. And then the t-shirt idea came to me. Yeah.
So I’ve written, I’m on my eighth draft right now of this play and I wrote like two other plays before that. So it’s just constant. What is your theatre origin story? Where did you grow up and what is it that made you want to do theatre? I grew up between Peterborough in Ontario and I actually spent my summers and did a couple of years of school in Scotland just because my parents, they’re both profs and my dad is from there.
My mom studied there. So they always split their time partly also because of their own research. And both of them are sort of, my dad is like a hundred percent personality.
He’s that professor who is terrible at marking, completely disorganized, but winces students over in the room. And so he was always performing. And he was also the guy who like ran the drag show at my, at the college.
So I grew up with that. And then my mom was the much more like organized, put together type. But I always remember she was someone who taught a lot of modern poetry.
So read a lot of poetry. So I grew up in a house that was kind of like, people were very animated about that sort of stuff. And it wasn’t until, oh, I guess once in elementary school for the talent show, my parents helped me work on a performance of a Shel Silverstein poem.
Something about, it’s about some person talking about how sick they are and they’re going to, they need to stay home from school because they really don’t feel well. And then at the end, it becomes very clear that they’re faking it all just to get out of school. And I sort of, I just loved it.
That was sort of my first time doing like a performance where I, you know, really, because I didn’t have school plays really up until that point. And then it was only because when I went to middle school that my sister had done the musical theater shows at that middle school when she was there. And I thought, oh, okay, I guess I’ll do that.
And then I auditioned and I got in and had great teachers who were there for the, I stayed at that same school for high school purely because of them and because of that program. And I did musicals every other year. And I did the Sears, I like classic, classic, you know, and then it wasn’t until later in high school, one of the summers we were in Edinburgh, we went to see, or maybe it wasn’t, no, it must have been that.
Yeah. I was going to Edinburgh around the time that the National Theater of Scotland started, which was a really exciting organization. Everything they were doing, because I didn’t see much theater in Peterborough.
Not a lot came there. It was mostly community theater stuff. So when I went to Edinburgh, that was me seeing like real professional shows and there were some just exciting stuff entirely different.
And that’s what got me being like, oh, I quite like this, but I was very self-conscious about it. And in grade 12, I was applying for culinary school and food science and theater programs. Like I was kind of, that’s where my self-consciousness about being an artist was a little bit like, I didn’t want anyone to think that I was, you know, prepping my Oscar speech or I was that kind of person.
So it wasn’t until that I got into a couple of theater programs and I literally applied for everyone. I applied, any conservatory program across the country, I applied for it. Cause I was so like, I won’t get in anywhere.
So I’m just going to apply everywhere. And I’ll also apply for food science. Cause that will be my sensible backup.
Like my parents didn’t put any of that on me. That was me just being like, you know, you know, it’s funny. Cause I can remember when I was, it was when I was in high school and we’d be having those conversations in the classroom and people were like, so, you know, in the, in front of the class, what are you going to, what do you want to do when you get out of high school? What are you going to study? And I knew what I wanted to study, but I couldn’t bring myself to say it.
I couldn’t say, I want to be an actor for some reason. And, but I always knew that’s what I wanted to do. And I was super self-conscious.
Like they’re always, and you know, I went to a school where I said that to the guidance counselor and there was like a good two minutes of silence as they sort of shifted in their seat. Cause they didn’t know what to say to that because people didn’t do that. People go into like, they go for their, their, their bachelor of arts in English or something.
I don’t even know what to tell you. So I totally get like, sort of not, almost not wanting to say it. Yeah.
Oh, I couldn’t. I, and then it wasn’t when I got into a program and I realized what it meant to study food science. Like I wanted to recipe developed or read about food if I was going to do that route.
And I realized I’d be doing like science a lot, which I was good at science in high school, but I just thought, no, I don’t think I’m passionate about science. Is that what you want to do every day, all day? Yes, exactly. So I went to a joint program at U of T Mississauga and Sheridan College.
And that was purely, it was, I mean, it was funny. I auditioned for Windsor the day before, and that was like my, at the point, I don’t even, it’s kind of funny now that I think about why, but I wanted to go to Windsor. My dad had gone to Windsor and grown up and grown up in Windsor.
And I think that’s probably where it mostly came from. So I went to that audition and it was awful. I just knew it wasn’t like, I don’t think I did anything terrible, but the whole day I was very aware.
I went, I don’t think these people, I don’t think they didn’t like me, but I thought we are not click. Like I could just feel it. And I was kind of devastated because I was like, Oh, I want to go to win like of all, why I wanted, you know, Windsor, it’s a great program and a great school, but I mean, the city of Windsor, like it was kind of funny.
So you had like built up Windsor, that’s the one? Yeah. Even more than like national theater school or something. Yeah.
You know, even more than that. So, and then the next day, so I was devastated. And then I had my UTM audition the next day.
I was like a hundred percent the different. I went, Oh, I get these people, these people get me. It was completely like a vibe.
And then thankfully I got in, but it was just, I almost feel like a lot of the time for, and I feel that when I go to auditions now, it is definitely a vibe as much as, well, I mean, obviously talent is important to a degree of course, but there’s also this thing that you just kind of feel in the air, like this person gets me in this for, you know, there have been times I’ve gone to an audition and in the middle of like, right. I don’t, I don’t think I want to do this. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, you’re worried. You’re like, Oh, should I not have that feeling? And you’re like, no, I think that’s important.
You know? Yeah. And, you know, it’s probably telling me that for a reason. Like, is this going to, and you know, anytime that I’ve not listened to that gut, I’ve had a miserable experience.
You know what I mean? Yeah. I totally agree. Did you, after the experience at the winter audition, were you reluctant to go to the next audition? No, no, no.
I was like, Oh man, I really have to now, you know, I was early enough in the process that I still had options coming. But no, I was like, I think I was even hungrier after that. I thought, Ooh, I really need to, you know, and UTM Sheridan hadn’t really been like, it was there because I was like, okay, it’s a conservatory program.
I definitely, I don’t want to do a degree. Well, I want to do a degree, but I don’t want to, you know, I want to be acting for sure. So it hadn’t really been on my radar.
So it was such a surprise then when I felt walking on campus, like, Oh yeah, this is, this is feels right. So have you felt that it wasn’t right from the moment you set foot at winter? Somewhat. Or when you were in the rehearsal room? No, probably the whole time.
And that one was in Toronto. Yeah. They came to Toronto and they did that.
Yeah. It was just a gut thing. And again, nobody did anything specific.
It’s just like, you just kind of felt it, you know, you were like, we’re not connecting in the same way, you know. What is it that you liked about the Sheridan UTM program? Is there anything in particular that, now that you’ve been out for a little while, that you can pinpoint? I, you know, I had a lot of, I think it was that balance of being at a U of T campus. One that is also has all the resources of U of T, but is in a small campus setting in Mississauga and then having Sheridan.
So it was like, and I think that’s always been what my personality has been like, is that I am an academic, thoughtful sort of reclusive person, but then I’m also the kind of, you know, you’re sort of, I don’t want to say actor stereotype, but I also like the other, like, I like kind of going between both worlds. So it very distinctly gave you those two worlds, where I think in, you know, in a literal, very physical way. And I had a lot of opportunities beyond what I did in the theatre program.
I was really involved in campus life in general. And I liked that community, like, and it definitely became that way after a while. And that program, I think, is very good.
There are a lot of long, long traditions. And I thought the sense of community within the program was great as well. Yeah, there wasn’t a cattiness.
And, you know, another thing that really drew me to that program was the whole idea of cutting after a year or two. I was very aware, was it was a thing at Ryerson or George Brown, and I knew at this program, if I was going to get cut, it would sort of be on my own accord. It wasn’t really… It wasn’t a thing that they did.
Yes. Because I will tell you, coming out of the George Brown system. Yeah.
And, you know, I mean, there are a whole lot of things I could say about that program that I’ve heard in two years. It was very different. I mean, I was there in like the 90s.
Yeah. It was like a different staff. But still the whole cutting thing exists from the Christmas break.
Yeah. Like you could be cut after like three months or four months. Right.
And that colors everything. Yeah. Unless you’re the golden children.
Yeah. You feel fear the whole time. And that is not conducive to art.
No. And that’s one thing that I would be if I could change anything. Yeah.
Conservatory programs, it would be like, stop that. Yeah. Stop the cutting.
Yeah. Stop cutting people. Because why are you cutting people? Because you say they’re not going to cut it.
Yeah. Who the fuck are you to say? Yeah. Right.
Especially at that point. Yeah. Yeah.
There’s so many people that I know who went through all these programs and they’re not even acting anymore. Yeah. Yeah.
For sure. So who are they to say? Yeah. But anyway.
Yeah. Soapbox. No, but I totally.
And that was a fear I had in grade 12 where I just thought, oh, I don’t. And, you know, similarly with the other structure at places like UVic or York where you audition in your second year. And then even that scared me.
I just thought I want to be somewhere where I know. Yeah. I always find it weird like at those schools where, you know, you go to one year and you’re a generalist and then you’re assigned where we place you.
Yeah. No. But like, what if you place me in like something I don’t want to do? Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And then what? Yeah. Oh, and I just couldn’t. I just thought, I’m going to be anxious enough about everything else.
I don’t need that on top of it all. So that was, you know, if I’d gotten into and if it had made sense to one of those other programs, I would have thought I actually ended up not going to my Ryerson or George Brown audition. It was, um, it’s a bit funny.
I was, did you know that you’d gotten in? Like, how quickly did you? Oh, I think I knew about a week later I got to the other one. And then it’s quite funny. I, um, I had, there were two other factors.
I had an outside scholarship that slightly influenced where I went. And then I was also preparing for my grade eight piano exam and I was very much on the verge of failing. Like I was not in a good place.
So my parents, the kind of, you know, brown noser, not brown noser, the kind of student I was, my parents had to sit me down and said, Madeline, you can’t go. You have to prep for this piano exam or you have to decide between the piano exam or going to more theater school auditions. I think they knew that I’d sort of obsessively lined up all these auditions and they were sort of like, you need to be practicing for your piano exam.
So I got to a point where I went, okay, just let me go to the national theater school one. And then after that, I will stop. I will cancel all the other ones because I’d gotten into UTM at that point.
So I went to the national theater school one. That was a very, that was a very great audition room, but I didn’t move on beyond the initial stage. And then I passed my grade eight piano exam because I devoted my weekends to get it.
I, I did not, I did not pass with flying colors, but I passed. I passed. So that was the important thing.
Yeah. Yeah. At what point did like, you mentioned how you’ve been writing a lot in your life.
Yeah. But was it Aaron that said like, you got to write a play? Oh, for sure. For sure.
You had never considered writing a play before that? I took a playwriting course in university cause I liked the prof and I thought, oh, this could be interesting. And I, and I sort of, and we also, uh, the first production you do in my program is a collective creation. So usually it’s changed since, but basically you take a book, everyone adapts it.
And I’ve written a couple of scenes for that, that I really liked. But even then it hadn’t really crossed my mind. And then, yeah, it was Aaron being like, you should write a play that I was like, okay, I guess I have to write a play.
Interesting. Cause as somebody who like, um, is like works in theater, like to not even think about like writing before that really. Cause to me, like when I think about writing, like I have ideas for things and I’m almost always like, how does that, that’s probably a play.
Right. And there are some people who are like, I have an idea that’s probably a novel, but theater is my vocabulary. Oh, that’s a good point.
And so that’s naturally where my writing ideas tend to go. Um, and I’ve, I guess it’s like, if you’re in the world of theater and not thinking about writing theater, I’m curious about what you were, I guess, you know, I was, I was stretching that muscle in other places. I guess I was, um, when I came out of university, I was writing for a, uh, a food service organization and I was writing kind of like bloggy personal essay material on food and campus life.
So I was throwing, you know, my voice was, I had that to write in and it’s probably the same thing. And then it took me forever to be okay saying I’m an actor. So I think I was never one of those people.
I never, I was like, Oh, I’m not like a theater maker. Like I was always like, I know my thing and this is my thing. So I think I didn’t even think about the fact of like, well, and even now I wouldn’t really call myself a playwright.
Like I would still have, I would very much hesitate. I’ve like, I’ve written a play. You know, it’s funny because that whole, that whole attitude is something that I think that many of us struggle with.
For years I would not say that I was an actor just because people look at you weird. Also I didn’t do it full time. So it felt like somehow maybe that meant that I wasn’t allowed to say that I’m an actor.
And also when I, in terms of writing, I have a day job where I write on the side. Maybe that doesn’t, maybe I don’t get, maybe I’m not allowed to call myself a writer yet. But as time has gone on, I’ve gotten a lot better at that.
So people say, what do you do? I might be like, I’m a writer and I also do this during the, like I do this during the day. It took a long time to get there. Oh, exactly.
And even, well, and that’s why I’m like, yeah, maybe, you know, and I think that’s why I was maybe even a little wary of trying in the first place where I went, well, you know, if I was a playwright, I would do that, but I’m not really. But then it’s sort of like, well, how do you become a playwright unless you try? Yeah. And you said you’ve written four plays now? Uh, this will be my second one.
Oh, I mean, I guess like I had to write one in universe. I officially think of it as my second play. Okay.
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think you get to call yourself a playwright now. Like you wrote a play, you get to call yourself a playwright.
I think, I know. No, you’re right. You’re totally right.
And it’s going to take me being like, what? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. There are words that we throw around and it’s like, oh, playwright. That’s like, Carol Churchill.
Exactly. Those are playwrights. Those are playwrights.
Yeah. I just wrote a play. Yeah.
Yeah. It’s a self depreciating thing that we do. Well, it’s bad, but I always think about it in terms of like professionalization too.
And I’m like, well, when someone commissions me for a play, I’ll be a playwright, you know? Or if someone were to do that, then I’ll be that, you know? What’s funny is that you’ve got like, you know, that takes a long time. Like, of course, you have to be a playwright before somebody will commission you. I know that’s the, that’s the stupidity of my own logic is, you know, I don’t think you’re alone in that.
It’s not a stupid logic. It’s a common thing because we depreciate our own talent. Yes.
Yeah. Well, you forget that it’s not a skill. When you’re immersed in the community, in the world, you’re like, everyone has a skill set.
And then you get out in sort of a wider context and you go, I guess not everyone can. It’s interesting when you’re talking to people, as a friend of mine, would refer to them as muggles, people who don’t make theater. And you know, when you’re in a play, when their first question is, how do you remember all those lines? And you’re like, that’s a dumb question.
I just do. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Where do your ideas come from? I don’t, yeah. Come out of my brain.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
But there are things that people who don’t do that, don’t consider. Yeah. They don’t even know how that works.
Yeah. Yeah. No.
And I, well, and I was also just thinking too, you know, I think writing plays, I think it also reached a point where I sort of found myself getting to know the community. And I thought, how do I speak to the community? Because you only do it to a certain degree as an actor. And if you’re not acting in something, you know, and I saw what I like about playwriting and I was writing, you know, when I wrote for the university newspaper, I was communicating to my community all the time.
So I went, Oh, if I read a play, people will get to know that’s how, like, that’s my platform to communicate to the world I live in. You know, like I, I think if I really felt, cause that is really the world I live in. Like, yeah, I live in Toronto, but my community is, doesn’t stretch really beyond the parameters of the theater community in a way.
So I think what’s nice about playwriting is I go, Oh, this is a way for people to get to know who I am and what my interests and sort of views are and questions and insecurities. And, you know, just like they did at the paper, you know, where I, I was writing for features. So I could more regularly kind of share those opinions.
I wasn’t doing straight news reporting. So that’s what I kind of liked about it as well. So this is something that lets you sort of reveal yourself in a way that actors often don’t get.
Yeah. I think so. Like I think acting and the roles I’ve done have revealed certain parts of my personality, but I think there’s another side that that’s more apt to come out in writing that I don’t necessarily do in the other thing.
Also like the words are given to you by somebody else. So you’re like twisting yourself into somebody else’s words. And this is like, this, this can be all you.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
And you’re kind of the questioning is different. You’re kind of like when you walk in as an actor, you go even on new works, I find to a certain degree, you walk in and you go, okay, this is the truth. Like this is the gospel truth.
You know? I mean, that’s all you do where at least when you’re writing, you’re like, Oh, I can question myself a bit more. And I can, you know, it’s a fascinating thing. Yeah.
Position to be in when you are both the writer and the actor and the different conversations that you’re Yeah. Yeah. Um, and when you suddenly realize that something doesn’t work and you’re like, I could try to make it work or I could just rewrite it.
Yes. Yeah. Which is something you would never do if it was a play written by somebody else.
So it’s a, an amazing freedom. Oh, absolutely. Well, and that’s the nice thing too.
And that’s why, you know, I wrote myself in my first play the first time, because of course I was going to, and of course I was going to do, I mean, who wouldn’t, who, you know, as an actor, foremost, you’re like, well, I’m going to be in And last year I had to, cause it, it was me. It was very, it was very explicitly, but I also, what’s nice about, and now as a writer, I think I have this kind of mindset where I’m like, I need to hear other people read it. But I also, when I read it, I also get a known understanding.
Like I remember I felt last year at the play we did in early reading at one point, I went, I don’t feel that sense of reward that you get as an overall character arc that I know when I’ve read previous roles, I can feel it when I’m able to read it internally and explore it internally. That’s different than if I wasn’t at all, which is kind of a nice place to be in, where as an actor, I go, okay. And the roles I’ve done previously, I know what that reward is like at the end.
And right now reading my own play, I don’t have that, you know? So it’s nice. There’s that kind of intuition you don’t get otherwise. I don’t know that other playwrights would, would feel it in another way.
I always like to hear it written, read by other people. Yes. I’m lying.
That’s not entirely true. Because my solo play, the first time, like I could only read it, like I had to be reading it. Yeah.
But usually when I write for a cast of people, I need to hear other people read it. Otherwise I’m just like, I’m too, I’m acting and I’m not writing. Totally.
Totally. And I think that’s the same as, you know, when I think about it in my own, in writing, that’s not dramatic writing. I always have to read that aloud in a similar kind of like, you can only read in your head so often before you have to hear it out loud.
And I think in plays it’s that, that’s the equivalent separation is having somebody else read it. Yes. You know, you can only read it out loud to yourself so many times before you go, okay, how does this sound in somebody else’s, you know, thing? Yeah.
Is you have to, you have to hear that. Yeah. And you were saying that, that everybody wants a t-shirt.
Is that the theater past my backspace? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
And the other play, where is that? That’s at the Elgreen. The Elgreen. Yeah.
That’s it. Have you worked in that space before? We actually, with both, both companies were in the same space as we were in last year. And that was by like, that’s where we wanted to be in both cases.
Yeah. Yeah. The Elgreen is, I had never been there before.
I’d never seen a show before. I thought it was massive. And I thought, thank God I am not here with my two person play.
Like I just, I would be disturbed. Yeah. Nobody would ever put a two person show on that stage.
It’s just, it’s massive. It’s too big. And the house is way too big.
Even when you’re doing the show with like a lot of people, you feel like, how the fuck do we put all the people? Like, how are we going to fill this theater? Yeah. Yeah. So big.
Yeah. It was, it was perfect though for the Soul Express shows though. Cause we have quite large casts.
So we needed the space. It’s also very accessible in terms of public transit. It’s right at the banana.
And the beauty of it, which I didn’t really realize until we got into the show is that it’s, since it’s in a community center, there’s always a space to wait. You know, when I turn up at the backspace, I’m like sitting on the street, you know? Yeah. So you’re there.
So when you’re with a group of people where suddenly accessibility needs are ranging, it’s great to be in a space where there’s a community center. There’s somewhere to wait inside. That’s kind of cuts out any sort of difficulty.
Like if it’s raining, you don’t have to be like under an umbrella outside of the backspace. Yes. Yeah.
Which I will happily put up with, you know, but yeah, it’s part of the fringe, you know? Yes. Yeah. Are you online yet? Are you on social media? Do you have a website? I have, I have a website and this is how much of myself I, it’s still madelinebrown.weebly.com. I think I’ll buy the domain when I, you know, I don’t know when I get a Broadway concert, something like, you know, for now I’m like, Weebly can get their credit.
Uh, yeah. And that’s, and then technically all our social media for the show I’ve written for everybody wants a t-shirt will be, it’s on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, at Prairie Fire, please, uh, please spell PLZ. That’s the company name that we produce under.
Yeah. And are you, are you on the, on the Twitters? I’m not, I’m not. I, you know, I, I, I did all the tweets for our account last year and I had a lot of fun.
Like I really liked doing that and I thought about for a second and I just went, yeah, yeah. I have enough time to waste on my own Facebook account. Well, this has been a lot of fun.
Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
This has been a Homebody Productions production.
