Stephen Near
Stephen Near is a playwright and performer from Ottawa, ON and a graduate of York University. His plays have been performed across Canada in such festivals as the Ottawa Fringe, the Toronto Fringe, the Hamilton Fringe, New Ideas, and Summerworks. He is an alumnus of the Sage Hill Writing Experience and the Banff Centre and has studied playwriting with Linda Griffiths, David Copelin, Daniel MacIvor, Brian Quirt, and Beverley Cooper. In 2015, Stephen established the First Stage Series of new play development at the Players Guild of Hamilton. Stephen is a member of the Playwright’s Guild of Canada and the Theatre Aquarius Playwrights Unit. Recent writing credits include Monstrous Invisible (Theatre Aquarius), Interface (2011 Hamilton Fringe – New Play Contest 1st Prize), Plain Speak (2012 HamilTEN Festival), Test (2013 Hamilton Fringe – New Play Contest 2nd Runner-Up), The Conspiracy of Michael (2014 Hamilton Fringe), and Finding Mr. Right (2015 Hamilton Fringe). He lives in Hamilton with his wife Leanne, daughter Rebecca, and son Brenden.
Twitter: @snear23
Same Boat Theatre:
www.sameboattheatre.com
Twitter: @sameboattheatre
Your Own Sons:
Pauline’s son travels overseas to fight for ISIS while Dan’s son joins the Canadian Forces. Desperate to understand, both parents set out on a journey to confront the fate of their sons. But as their paths draw them closer to each other, will they be ready for the answers that await them? From the creators of Finding Mr. Right and Test, comes this searing and critically-acclaimed drama tackling the politics of faith and fear and the collision between love and loss.
Written by Stephen Near
Directed by Aaron Joel Craig
Stage Managed by Rose Hopkins
Featuring: Terri Brunsting, Adam Lemieux, Stephen Near, Jennifer Walton, Amber Wood, and Ramzey Zourob
VENUE: The Pearl Company Arts Centre, 16 Steven Street, Hamilton, ON
TICKETS: $20 (purchase at Brown Paper Tickets)
OPENING: Thursday, April 19 at 8:00 PM
Friday, April 20 at 8:00 PM
Saturday, April 21 at 8:00 PM
Thursday, April 26 at 8:00 PM
Friday, April 27 at 8:00 PM
Saturday, April 28 at 2 PM
CLOSING: Saturday, April 28 at 8:00 PM
Transcript
Welcome to episode 123 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.
If you like the podcast, I hope you’ll leave a comment or rating on Apple Podcasts, Google Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your ratings and comments help new people find this show or, even better, if you know someone you think will like the show, tell them about it. Some of my favourite podcasts became my favourites because somebody I knew told me about them.
If you want to tell me about somebody that you introduced to this show, or the person who introduced you, or you just want to drop me a line with your questions or comments, I would love to hear from you. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at StageworthyPod, and you can find the website at stageworthypodcast.com. If you want to drop me a line, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter at philrickaby, and my website is philrickaby.com. Guys, I know that you know that the Fringe season is fast approaching, and if you have a show in the Fringe, you have to know that these days social media is the best way to target your audience for Fringe. But I know how it is.
You’re busy with rehearsal, and promoting your show just isn’t on your mind yet, but it should be. Now, I know, it’s not even May yet, and you think that there’s plenty of time, but I know that these things end up getting pushed to the last minute. So you need to start thinking about how you’re going to promote your show.
And I know it all seems scary because you aren’t sure how to strategize, or maybe you don’t know what a boosted post is, or how to make your ad pop. Maybe you don’t even know what web optimization means, and that’s okay, because Adriana Prosser can do that for you with her Fringe social media packages. Now, I’ve worked with Adriana before, and I can tell you that man, she knows her stuff.
And her social media marketing campaigns have translated to bums in seats. And you know, after all the work that you put into your show, that’s what you really want, people to see the show. Adriana can help you do that.
So find her on Twitter at Adriana P., or on her website, Adriana-Prosser.com. This week, my guest is playwright Stephen Near. Stephen is appearing in Same Boat Theater’s Your Own Sons, which he also wrote at the Pearl Company Arts Center in Hamilton, playing until April 28th. Yeah, I mean, I was talking with Ryan Sero, like maybe two weeks ago.
We sort of talked about doing the two Hamiltons. There’s Arts Hamilton, which is a bit younger, a bit hipstery. But there’s also Steeltown Hamilton.
And you’ve got these two parallel places that exist in the same place. Yeah, it’s true. But I guess the funny thing that I’ve discovered is that both audiences are eager to see anything.
Honestly, Steeltown Hamilton and Arts Hamilton will come out to see just about anything. The only difference is, for my money, is that when Steeltown Hamilton sees a show or sees a piece of work that is up Hamilton, then they come out in droves. Oh shit, really? Oh, they come out in huge droves, right? Anything that has a sense of being a small town makes good or a local interest story, they flock to.
And that runs the gamut from, I’m new to Hamilton and I’m discovering what it is to be Hamiltonian. Oh, we’ll go there, we’ll totally support you. To the umpteenth revival of How Could You, Mrs. Dick? Right? Yeah.
Which is about as close as you can get to core, the favourite narrative of the city, right? I think you must know her, but her name is escaping me now. She was a regular at Hamilton Fringe and she did a show. Her first show was about baking, cupcakes or something like that.
Oh! And then she followed it up with a show called Bootlegger’s Wife. Victoria Murdoch? That’s right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so Bootlegger’s Wife like fucking made out with gangbusters. Partially because, I mean, she’s obviously a gifted performer, but mostly partially because she like based it on Rocco What’s-His-Face, who was like this famous Hamilton rum runner, right? And gangster. And Hamilton loves its gangsters.
Well, I mean, most places that have gangsters love their gangsters. Love their gangster shows, I know, yeah. But it’s just like, I don’t know.
There was a show that was written many years ago. I forget the playwright’s name, but it was called Glory Days and it was a musical about the steel strike at Stelco. And I’ve always wondered what would happen if that was revived today.
Like it would probably go over like gangbusters. Yeah, yeah. I found there’s this state of art criticism in Hamilton, at least theater criticism in Hamilton, which I found a little bit lacking.
I was about to say what theater criticism? I mean, that is the thing, is that theater criticism doesn’t exist because nothing is critical of the theater. At least what I was seeing for Fringe is like… Of course, when I was doing Fringe, the first thing you do when the reviews come in, I was like, what’s my review? Oh, sorry, I wonder about so-and-so’s show. Oh, yeah.
I wonder what they said about that show I didn’t like. Oh, oh, oh. And so you’re like, oh, I’ve heard terrible things about this.
Oh, nobody gets a bad review. Nobody gets a bad review. And what I found was interesting is that my show was pick of the venue, and my numbers went down after that.
Really? Yeah. I mean, not like hugely, but there was a noticeable… That is surprising. There was a noticeable drop.
You were in probably one of the worst venues. I’m sorry to say. I kind of liked it for my show.
I know. No, no. Okay.
Artistically, it worked for your show, but in my opinion, it’s one of the worst venues. It’s one of the worst venues. It’s just interesting that… And I sort of chalked up a drop in the numbers to… I think audiences, when they see… After a while, if you see everything getting a good review, and then you go to see it, either you believe that you don’t understand theater, because they’re like, they raved about this show, and this was not a good show, and you start to distrust either the reviewer or your own ability to… Maybe theater is just not for me.
Interesting. There’s one thing. Being a booster is fine, but also criticism is important.
Criticism is important. And I think we’ve started to see some changes. We’ve started to see Vue Magazine had a turnover in terms of their criticism just last year, the year before.
So the person that was writing the reviews was approaching things from a bit more of an educated perspective. The spec is… I don’t know. I keep on waiting for an active theater blog like Mooney to come on board, and I’ve been in touch with Megan about it, but she maintains, I can’t really do it unless there’s someone on the ground to do it.
Which is ironic. I’ve actually spoken to Leanne about this, and Leanne’s thought, well, maybe I could do that, because she edits for Megan during Toronto Fringe. But I don’t know.
It’s a funny thing, because I know I could never do theater criticism, because I’m actually making the work. Well, I actually think that that’s a dangerous thing to do. And I’ve had people who are like, with the podcast, do you do reviews? I’m like, absolutely not.
Absolutely not. Because first off, I do this to boost. I like to talk about theater.
When you criticize theater and you’re making theater, it becomes a different thing. It does. It does.
Yeah, it absolutely does. And I guess the thing, the conundrum for me then is that you’re right. Are we improving the ecology of theater in the city by continually boosting our work, right? Yeah.
I don’t know. It’s a strange thing, because if you’re going to criticize, if you’re going to be openly honest, then you’ve got to be openly honest with everybody. Sure.
And that means like, okay, I’m going to see community theater, and I’m going to tell you exactly what I think. And because the theater community is so insular in Hamilton, you’re going to be taking a newspaper and whapping the nose of a lot of the same people. There are artists that do shows in community theaters and approach it like professional actors.
They’re regulars. I don’t know if you ever met Peter Gruner. You may have come across him during Fringe, but his wife, Deb, she’s, I’m going to just say that she’s as close as you can get to a regular.
She’s almost as ubiquitous in Hamilton theater as Meryl Streep is in Hollywood. She’s in that age range, and she’s cast in all of these shows to such a degree that there was one year she was like four or five shows, one right after the other, one after the other, and then she did Fringe. And in that route, she knows who she wants to work with, who she doesn’t want to work with, what theater she’ll work with.
Never been on a professional theater stage. Never been on Aquarius. Done plenty of, well, done some Fringe, not a lot of Fringe.
There’s people who, for them, the community theater is all they need. Yeah, and I guess the strange thing for me, though, is that sometimes you’ll see a show in community theater that’s really dynamite. And you need to be honest about, well, I got to give this its due.
It’s a good piece of theater. But if we want theater to flourish as an art form, as a craft, then you’re right. We have to, the level of criticism, the level of educated criticism needs to go up.
And that’s what, that education is sometimes what is lacking. That informative. I mean, you know, but then you need critics to kind of engage artists directly, right? Like, what type of shows were you doing three or four years ago versus what are you doing now? I mean, I always look at the example of Kaplan and how he was so known for getting to know artists over the span of their careers, such that he was able to write really informed reviews.
He was also, I mean, the first time I sent a press release to John Kaplan, he called to provide constructive criticism, right? Absolutely. Because he genuinely wanted theater to be good and he wanted to help you make good theater. Because if you hate theater, you’re not going to do, you don’t, like, why would you do theater criticism if you hate theater? Yeah.
And if you don’t want, like, you just need to want everybody, like, want the people to do well. And, you know, that’s giving everybody a good review does not help everybody to do well. Yeah.
It lets everybody think, God, I can do, like, I don’t even have to put effort into this shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, they’re going to love whatever, like, these people love whatever I do, even if I wasn’t that confident about it, you know? It’s like, you know? Well, you know, and part of it, part of, I guess, the problem too that happens is that we have a, you know, you have a situation in reviews where, you know, the print, I mean, there’s no money to pay reviewers for it, right? So then people are doing it out of pocket or on a volunteer basis.
And, you know, that presents its own problems as well. I mean, you know, we have some really good informed reviewers who basically work on their own, you know, but, I mean, then these people, they work other jobs and they get to see theater when they can see theater, right? So I don’t know. It’s, that’s a really tough one.
Yeah. And it’s tough because the, I mean, I think years ago you were, you mentioned that, like, there are more community theater groups in Hamilton than there are professional theater groups. Is that still the case? Yeah.
Yeah, that still is. Yeah. And so there’s a certain amount of, you know, you don’t want to, if you’re reviewing shows and you’re trying to cultivate stuff, a lot of those community theaters may not be interested in being cultivated.
Yeah. Because they have their audience. Yeah.
You know, it’s a difficult one as if you were to be a reviewer going in there. But I think, I do think that if the Hamilton theater scene is going to flourish, there needs to be healthy criticism. Yeah.
To be able to say, but you know, criticism is not just to shit on things. No, no. It’s to be able to say this was lacking and this is why and that sort of thing.
And that’s why it needs to be educated criticism. Yeah. I mean, I think there’s a certain, as I said, I mean, I think there’s, there’s a real hunger by, from audiences in, in the city for, for work that, that speaks to them.
Right. And I always go back to the word authentic. Right.
Yeah. But I just think that it’s, you know, work that, work that’s, that’s done half-assed. Yeah.
You know, people can see that. People can, people can sense that. Um, but as I said, you know, like Hamilton really likes, really, really appreciates, and any sort of out of that Ham, I think Hamiltonian audience, Hamilton audiences really appreciate effort that they see as grassroots.
Um, the thing I love about Hamilton is it really is a place that you can, you can bring something that, that is half formed and are experimenting on and just put it up in front of people and they’ll buy it. They’ll watch it. They’ll like, they’ll let you know what they think.
Um, and, and you won’t go broke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and I think, I mean, that part of that, I mean, you see, you see that type of attitude in the success, in the success of things like Art Crawl, you know, where, I mean, Art Crawl essentially started, um, you know, where a group of galleries along James North said, well, listen, we all have these art shows that are opening up.
Yeah. Why don’t we just coordinate them? We’ll open them on the same night. And then, and then that just kind of started, uh, started the ball rolling.
There was a, there was a local art store that kind of helped push it along on social media in the public space. And then cafes would start pushing it as well. And now, but, but that didn’t happen overnight.
No. It didn’t happen over like five years. Like it was, it was a sustained period.
Yeah. Um, you know, and in the wintertime, the Art Crawl still happens, but it’s dead cause it’s cold. Of course.
And so it’s, it’s interesting. Sometimes I encounter people who talk about, uh, wanting the theater scene to look just like, look just as vibrant as the visual arts scene. And I think, well, it will, but it’s going to take time.
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Like during, I mean, during the summer with the fringe, it explodes and that’s great. Uh, and the fringe has now done their, their winter festival, but you know, it’s, it’s, it’s fits and starts. And also it’s, it’s not like theater is in, in Hamilton is centered along one in one geographic area.
Um, so, so that’s, that’s kind of the, the thing that’s kind of the, the, the place where we, I think that some of the difficulties that we find ourselves in. Um, and you know, I, I, the other thing too, I mean, Hamilton’s got a pretty big vibrant music scene, but in a lot of ways to the music scene there, I’m reading this lovely book called evenings and weekends, which is about the, the sort of rise of the indie music scene, you know, people like the Arkells and, and, uh, and, um, and, uh, you know, a host of other host of other acts. Um, but it’s, but it’s very evident that it’s built upon, uh, you know, these, these small little venues that host these artists that we’re all making, you know, bootleg or not bootleg, but that we’re making like small albums and be in their basements.
Right. Um, so now what, what I think we see in Hamilton is, is artists embracing things like performing in non-traditional spaces, or things like artists doing things in places like the staircase or the Pearl company. I hope the Pearl company, the Pearl company is, is up for sale apparently.
I don’t know. We may be one of the last shows in there. I’m not certain.
Um, I hope not because it’s a great space. That is a great space. I mean, we did the, the last man on earth there many years ago and it was a great space to work in with, with like multiple performance spaces.
Yeah. And they even, they re they redid the, the, the bay, like the, the bottom floor. So it’s just a dedicated theater.
Oh shit. Yeah. Stage.
It’s lovely. Yeah. Um, so, you know, and I look at that, so I look at these sort of rental venues and I go, well, you know, these are the places that, that, you know, I mean, George F. Walker has, has consistently come back to Hamilton and put and premiered shows of his there, uh, at the Pearl.
So, so there is, there is interest. There is interest in a lot of those spaces. I mean, I guess, I just wish that there was more of a sense.
There was more of a sense of, of, of theater creators on all levels wanting to take risks. Yeah. And you know, maybe part of this is, is my ignorance.
Like I, I, I know that, that Aquarius, I know the artistic director of Aquarius tries to program as much as he can within the mandate that he’s given. I mean, sure. I mean, Ron has, has gone on record saying, you know, like one of my favourite places, the pillow man, but you know, I don’t know that I could, I don’t know that I could program it and get audiences in, you know, and, and, you know, he’s, I mean, they did, they did, they did Blackbird this past, this past season of this past season.
It got up to, got a ton of press, got a lot of outrage, but it also got a lot of people in the community going out saying it was really well done, which it was, you know, and, and so, so there is, so there is a recognition of, of, you know, we need to do stuff that, that, that is more topical or more risky. I always look at the community theaters and I think it’s, it’s unfortunate because, uh, a lot of times they’re, they’re venues that could attract more audiences if, you know, if, if, if they, if, if they got more independent artists involved, like if, uh, if, if say the Players Guild invited a number of, of smaller theater companies and hosted them in their season and said, well, we’re going to have this group in here and they’ll put on a show as part of our main season, right? Like if that started happening more often, then you, I think you would get a little more attention. Like it’s just because we, it’s just, I mean.
There are a lot of, I mean, even in Toronto, there are a lot of, a lot of community groups that have like these really amazing spaces that they’re basically are, that are dedicated. Yeah. You know, you look at, you look at alumni theater, but alumni has, has also managed to, like they, you can rent the, you know, you can, there, there can be a roadhouse sometimes.
It’s true. It’s true. I mean, alumni, but I mean, I always look at alumni as like, I mean, I just, I just wrapped up a show at new ideas and I’m just like, I, I’m in awe of the stuff that they do.
Yeah. Like, I mean, holy crap. They’re, they’re almost their entire season this year was like new stuff, new work.
I’m like, are you crazy? Like, holy crap. Um, and so I think, you know, there’s no reason for community theater to not do new work or locally created stuff. Um, but even, but I guess that the, the odd thing about Toronto obviously is that there is, there is a sense of artistic, uh, curation involved and, and creation, uh, nurturing artists, giving them a home and, and, and giving them space to, to work on stuff, to try to fail.
Um, and I don’t, I don’t see the, the creation of space in Hamilton as, as there yet. Yeah. I think that’s, that’s the real, sure.
That’s the real drawback for sure. Is, um, is getting, you know, giving artists residencies, giving artists places to just play. You need to have space if you’re going to do, if you’re going to create.
Yeah. You do. Yeah.
You know, because then, you know, then can people, people can try out new work and so, so I don’t know. It’s, it’s a, it’s a puzzle. It’s a puzzle created, creating in the town.
And sometimes I feel a bit, it’s, I go in there and I think, oh yeah, it’s like, I sometimes feel like I’m back and back in my twenties, you know, I’m like, I’m not, I’m 20 years older than that. So, so yeah. Um, but you know, as I also, on the other hand, I, I, I sometimes feel now like I’m in a place where I’m able to better define my idea of what success is.
Um, whereas I sometimes thought when I was working here in Toronto, I was kind of working against the general idea of what success was. Right. Um, you know, I mean, I, I still, I still sort of have fights with myself, right.
Like, um, you know, like, am I, is this still something I want to do? You know, like, you know, the show only got, only got seen once. So I’d really like to see it again. So, but I mean, it is, it is nice at least being able to be part of a company that’s lasted, you know, longer than, you know, that’s long that’s lasted.
I think we’re going on, uh, almost five years, 14, four years. We’re into, we’re into our fourth year now. That’s good.
Which is, yeah, I think it’s like the longest, I think that’s the longest I’ve become a, been a part of any sort of, um, any company really. Yeah. Uh, so that’s good.
Yeah. What is, I mean, you were part of your season, part of the, this, this, this, this umbrella group, does it have a name or is it just like, no, we’re, we’re, we’re indie theater, Hamilton indie theater collective. We haven’t come up with a name yet.
I mean, it literally, it just started as a conversation around Christmas that was, you know, like, how do we, how do we work together and help each other? Cause otherwise all we’re going to be doing is programming our own stuff and potentially losing money and getting tired because we’re trying to wear too many hats. Um, instead you can, you can like combine resources and work together. Basically the gist of it is to, is to work, is to, is to basically boost in a productive, practical way.
Right. Like if there, if one C, if this one company is producing a show, then we’re like, well, we’ll, we’ll send out your press releases or we’ll share, you know, handle your marketing and your tweets. Right.
Um, that sort of thing. Or we’ll hand a box office the night that, that you’re running or, or ushers or what have you. I think that’s, that’s kind of, that’s the general gist of it.
And is test going to be the, uh, the same boat contribution or is that something you want? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Test is going to be a same boat. We’re, we’re hoping the plan is to do it in October cause just to kind of capitalize on, on Halloween and, uh, and yeah. And uh, yeah.
So it’s, uh, that’s, that’s the first, that’s the first plan and see how that goes. Well, test, I mean, test has, has come a long way since I first looked at it. Cause yeah, you were the first director.
Yeah. It was like 10 minutes long. That’s right.
The monkey man festival. Yeah. Um, and when he wrote it, it was kind of a sequel.
It was, yeah. It was a sequel or prequel. It was like a sequel.
It was, it was, it was a sequel to out of character, which, you know, I would go on record as saying, I don’t, I did not really feel good about out of character. I was written at a very bad time in my life and I probably should not have staged it and what have you. But no, seriously, I’d like, I’d look back on, I go, really, if I could take back anything, it would be to take back this particular show.
Um, but no, like I, I, out of, out of what I, the lessons I learned from that production went into what I, what I actually wanted to say with test. Uh, and then from that 10 minute play came, came something longer. Uh, and, and yeah, and, and, uh, and then that kind of has been sort of, uh, through the, through a number of years, just distilled and distilled and, and can you, can you describe test? Yeah.
I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s a play about, uh, about two, uh, live action role play role players who, um, the, the, the premise now is that you, and you’ll love this premise now is they’re actually at a convention and the audience is a bunch of gamers who are like, like first time gamers who don’t really know much about the hobby at all. Sure. So it’s Drew and Dana basically telling the audience about LARPing and, and the rules of LARPing.
But as they tell the story of the rules of LARPing, they get into telling the story about their relationship. Okay. And so that’s when it kind of turns into a story about, well, this is, this is what happened with us.
No, that’s not actually what happened. You’re telling the story wrong. It’s like this.
No, it’s like this. Um, yeah. So it, it, and it’s kind of, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of meta and in a lot of ways where, you know, and it’s kind of minimalist.
So, you know, I, I, so I think there, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of giants that I was standing on the shoulders of when I, when I wrote this piece. Um, I had actually just come back from a, uh, a workshop with Daniel McIver in, uh, in Banff. Uh, and, and a lot of the things that, that I had worked, worked on, and some of the things that you’ve talked about there kind of went into test about, you know, being unabashedly aware of the fact, of the fact that you’re in a play, telling a play.
I mean, that is one of the things that I think is, is talked about in Jordan Tannehill’s, uh, Absolutely. And about like, who are we? And I, I have more in solo plays, but now more and more, I’m like, who am I? Like, especially, I find, especially in a solo play, like I need to know, like, who are you and why are you talking to me? Like, who am I and why are you talking to me? Right, right, right. Um, but I do appreciate in, in theater when there’s like some kind of acknowledgement, not necessarily that it’s a play, but that like, I am talking in this room and there’s people.
And you are you. You are you. Exactly.
Yeah. Um, I appreciated, uh, uh, uh, Tamlyn’s play where, uh, uh, at Fringe two years ago when she was like, because her premise was like, these are the three seconds between when my boyfriend asked me to marry him and I tell him, you are the aspects of my brain, you audience. And we’re going to work that like, this is what that is.
Right, right, right. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. Um, so the, you have, uh, the two characters during Dana and they’re, they’re like, which I think is a good idea because some of your audience, much of your audience is not going to know what LARPing is. So it’s good that they are full at first time LARPers.
Yeah, for sure. For sure. So yeah.
And I mean, it’s, I always, I think we, we intended on producing it, uh, was it no, not last year, the year before. And then our plans fell through for that. And, uh, but I still had the script.
I still had the revised script kicking around. So, um, and it was always something that Aaron, uh, really wanted to do. So once we, once we’re finished your own sons, which wraps at the end of April, then we’ll, we’ll start on this.
What is your own son? Cause that’s, that’s, I mean, something that, I mean, this is going to go up, uh, in time for that. So I want to talk, like, what is, what is your own son? Well, your own sons is, is a play I started. Uh, so it, it, it’s a play about, about, uh, that tackles the subject of radicalization, um, in, uh, in Western youth, right.
Radicalization, uh, with regards to ISIS. Right. Right.
That, you know, so home, so homegrown radicalization. Um, it was born really the impetus for the play, uh, came out of, of, out of an, a sort of an awareness on my part of, of, you know, this, the tendency for, for, you know, young white boys, young Western boys, uh, you know, from Canada, States, France, all over Europe to decide to up and join ISIS, like mainly go, go to places like Syria or Iraq, uh, or Egypt, um, and, and take up this cause. Uh, and, but it wasn’t something that sort of, I went, it was just kind of a, a, a, a subject matter that I, that I was interested in and, and was sort of, uh, researching a little bit, but it didn’t sort of hit home until, um, 2014, uh, when the, uh, when the shooting attacks in Ottawa took place.
Um, and that of course, uh, that was, um, uh, the young man, uh, Michael Zehaf-Bibo, who, you know, uh, stormed the, the war memorial, shot and killed Nathan Cirillo, who was from Hamilton, uh, and then attacked, uh, stormed the parliament buildings. And I thought, I just, the, the impact of that hit me for a number of reasons. I mean, first of all, it was in Ottawa.
Yeah. Um, and I always, you know, part of me is always like, I recognize that part of my heart, part of my, myself will always be in that city. You’re, you’re originally from Ottawa.
I’m originally from there. Um, and actually, you know, the year, that year, the year, a year before I’d spent a lot of time in Ottawa, because my mom was, was dying from cancer. And I recalled several times walking back from the palliative hospital where she was passing by the war memorial, right? Like it’s a very meditative place.
And so, you know, you had this terribly violent incident that took place, um, directly connected to the city where I am now. Um, and the outpouring of, of grief and emotion that took that, that happened in Hamilton in the wake of this really can’t be overstated. Like, I mean, we had, you know, there were, there were flags up everywhere.
There were, there were somber marches up and down the streets. There was, I mean, you know, the, the, the funeral procession for, for Corporal Sorello, um, was attended by pretty much the whole damn city, uh, you know, winding its way through the streets until you hit the armory, which is just down the street from where I was working. Uh, so, so it was a pretty, it was a pretty profound and very deep seated grief, uh, that, that caused a lot of reflection on my part.
And it really was the first, I really felt very much compelled to write about it. And, and, you know, one of the things that I’ve asked myself a lot as a writer these past few years is like, what type of stories can I tell? What type of stories do I have a right to tell? You know, and it’s a big thing that we’ve seen a lot of this year in particular this past year, you know, like who’s, who has proprietary rights over telling a certain story. Um, you know, and I was interested in telling a story about, you know, about radicalization because it’s, it’s a, it’s, it’s an important issue, but I wasn’t really sure sort of what, how it affected me or how it impacted me.
And then I realized, well, for crying out loud, I’m, I’m a white man. I grew up in the age of television. I grew up, you know, I, I, the internet came about when I was in university, um, you know, and I liked playing with GI Joe and watching star Wars and, and playing video games when I was a kid.
And I just thought, Jesus, like, you know, they’re there for the grace of God, you know, I, right. And then what also happened around that time too, like shortly after that time was, um, uh, Leanne and I had, uh, had our second child was Brendan, our son. And I was, I, when we had Becca, our daughter, I was, I was overjoyed and she was like the apple of my eye, but honestly, when we had our son, I was absolutely terrified because I, I found myself going, what, you know, asking these questions about what type, you know, questions about like masculinity and, you know, what is masculinity and what is the identity of being a man? What type of lessons am I imparting? Can I be imparting, you know, and what type of father am I going to be to a boy? Yeah.
Right. So those were like really deep questions that, that I was confronted with. So I started, I started with the play and the first character was, was a, was a mother who lost her son to radicalization, which was very much inspired by, by a number of stories of these so-called ISIS mothers, um, you know, mothers all across the world, essentially whose, whose sons have, have left.
Uh, you know, they’ve been radically, they’ve been basically self radicalized by, you know, watching things on YouTube, uh, surfing the internet, but it’s not just that it’s, you know, there are deeper problems involved. There’s psychological issues. That was certainly the case with say, have people, um, you know, there’s trauma, there’s childhood trauma, there’s loss of parental figures.
Um, probably the most direct example, the direct, uh, sort of identifier, uh, that we found was a woman named Christiane Boudreau, who was a Calgary mother who lost her son, Damian, uh, to, uh, to radicalization. And, and so we were very lucky during our run of the fringe last year. We, um, we, uh, we met, we got into correspondence with her about it.
Um, and it was, it was, it was quite, it was quite humbling, but also quite sad to just like understanding, understanding what was going, you know, the, the, these, these are real stories. Yeah. So, and, but then the other, the other side of the, the, the other side of your own sons was, you know, an idea about, about being a father.
And I, I play a father in, in, in the story of father to a boy who, or a young man who joins the military. Right. And that for me was this other aspect of like, you know, how do you handle if you’re a traditionally not, you know, had sort of a complex relationship, shall we say with, with the military, the idea of military, uh, and, you know, you, and, and, you know, you have a, you have a son who decides to join and to serve and, you know, maybe serve in a capacity that you as a parent might not approve of.
What does that look like? How do you deal with it? So, so anyways, they, they, so we, we as a company started, started kind of thinking about this, this project. And I started writing it. I got a, I got a creator’s grant from the OAC with theater Aquarius for it.
Uh, and then we applied for a city of Hamilton, uh, arts grant to develop it. We got that. Then we entered into the fringe thinking, well, maybe we’ll enter into the fringe and we can develop it there.
And we got into the fringe. And so we produced it last year, the 20, 2017, uh, Hamilton fringe. It did really well.
I wasn’t really sure, you know, like I, I it’s, I always feel like whenever I put, whenever I put a play up in Hamilton, I’m like, oh, no one’s going to come and see this. It’s going to be interesting. Well, no, seriously, like, you know, like what, like what, like 2015, I wrote a play.
I wrote a play about a conservative, you know, like I’ve had your playwrights. I wrote a play. I wrote a play inspired by the Duffy scandal.
I’m like, no, one’s going to come and see this. I’m playing, I’m playing like a cipher for Nigel Wright. Like I’m, you know, a backroom dealer for Steven Harper.
Like no one is interested. No one in Hamilton is interested in seeing, you know, an hour in the life of, of, of a guy on Parliament Hill, but they seem to like it. Then I was like, okay, so are people going to come see a play about, you know, a feel good play about, you know, a mother and her radicalized son? Sure.
But, you know, I think I always underestimate my audiences because I genuine, genuinely people came, came to see it and were quite moved. And, and that was really nice to see. I sometimes think that, that, that fear can be a good thing.
Fear of like, will anybody come to see this? If I was to, if, if I wrote a thing and I was like, everybody’s going to come and see this, like, like how can they not? And suddenly I’m going to be like that. Nobody shows up. But if you have that fear of like, uh, maybe what if nobody comes then at least you’re like, you work at like making sure that people go, people come.
I would hate to be the guy who’s like, well, you know, I’m Phil Rickaby. So people are going to come and see my play. Cause then I’d be like, I am just waiting for, for the opportunity to just have nobody come.
I know. Well, it’s, it’s, it, you know, so it took me by surprise and, and, uh, and we always went into the frame. Oh, this was the thing.
We went into the fringe this year, uh, basically unabashedly saying, listen, this is a workshop. This is not going to be the finished product. This is like a work print.
Like here we’re, we’re, we’re doing the basic sketch out of the story. And that, and that for me felt really freeing because it was like, you know, this isn’t good. This isn’t the perfect play.
This isn’t the well-made play. It’s going to be rough around the edges. How are people going to respond to it? Oh, okay.
And the feedback we got, we got like a lot of it. We, we, we incorporated into the development of this piece. But even this piece that we’re doing, isn’t like, I mean, it’s more finished, it’s more polished, but even then it’s like we, uh, we went into rehearsal this past, this past week and we were, you know, like I delivered the finished draft two weeks ago, but even then we were like, okay, cut this, cut that, cut that.
I mean, the piece makes use of like choral episodes where like all the cast are talking in unison and it was, and it was really interesting. I went into that for bracing myself like, oh, we’re going to make all these cuts and they’re really going to hurt and be painful. Um, but it was quite, it was quite interesting because I realized at one point it was, um, you know, we, we made some changes here and there and all of a sudden it felt like, oh, this is what the piece is.
This is where it lives. Um, and we’re doing it at the Pearl, so there’s a different vibe than, than the rush, rush, rush to, to fringe and the, oh, we’re, we’re not in competition, but we’re sort of in competition with other plays and, oh, we got to, we got to champion this piece. And, you know, like there was, there’s, there’s sometimes that vibe too with festivals, like I find, especially if they’re, if they’re, yeah, like if you’re, if you’re in a theater festival, you’re like, well, you know, we’ve got to give away all these free tickets in order to make sure that people come and, and who’s getting, who’s getting what coverage and things like that.
And, and, and I, I find a really much prefer producing in independence because at least, you know, there’s a sense of, okay, we’re doing it and it’s here and it’s in this space. Mind you, okay, here’s the crazy part though. Like we’re going, our, our last week of production, there’s like four or five different things happening in, in Hamilton theater at the same time.
Wow. One of which is one of my shows. It’s going up at this 10 minute play festival.
I won’t get to see it, but, uh, it was actually the same piece that was at alumni this past, uh, this past month. So, so hence my, my thing, my statement that I’m busy. Ryan is actually directing it.
So yeah. Yeah. See, I, I, I, I like fringe, um, as a, I tend to be more towards the, like, I don’t see the competition aspect so much.
Um, and maybe that’s my, my altruistic nature. I tend to see, um, I go in with the, there’s audience enough for everyone. Um, and, but again, you make alliances at a fringe festival.
You make choices about like, if you’re doing a curtain speech, yeah. You make choices about what you’re going to do, what you’re going to promote. So you make those alliances and you’re like, I’m shouting at your show, but you showed him my show, you know, the service that I really liked your show.
I’m going to shout it out. We showed him my show. You make these, these sort of, these sort of choices.
I guess, I guess for me, it, it, it sometimes harkens back to sort of the, I, you know, I, you know, I’ll freely admit, you know, the, the anxiety of like, you know, have I made something that’s like that people are actually going to come and see? I mean, you know, I remember the, the first fringe show I did was at the Ottawa fringe and the first show that I ever did first goddamn show, there were more people on stage than there were in the audience. Oh, that’s the worst, most painful, the most painful memory. Oh God, this is, this is really not good.
You know, and it’s not, but so you’re, you know, it, but it’s not that, that I begrudge any of the other shows. I just, I just, you know, it’s just that there’s the nature of the beast. Like I think, I think your biggest critic is always yourself.
Like, so, you know, are people like you, you know, you read the description, the description of your show and it’s like, Oh God, no one’s going to come and see this. Oh, this one, this one looks really fun. Yeah.
I did, you know, if I was, if, if I was choosing the first show to see, Oh no, I for sure would see this one. Yeah. So I don’t know.
It’s my neurosis always plays. Oh sure. Those fringe descriptions are always difficult to write.
You know, it’s like how possible, right? How do I, how do I write a thing that gives somebody a sense of what the show is, but not too much gives too much away, makes a show sound like you really want to see it, you know, like in like three or four sentences. Yeah. Finding appropriate, appropriate poll quotes is always the challenge.
Oh shit. Yeah. People pay attention to poll quotes, but they can’t be out of thin air.
No, they have to be real. They have to be in context. Yeah.
So it’s, it’s, it’s tricky. Yeah. You know, it’s why it’s, it’s, it’s why you’re in a good position of at least you’ve garnered some positive reviews over the, over the course of like five years.
Oh sure. But I mean, then it’s like, if you’re doing a new show, is it, is, are all your poll quotes about like you as a professional? That’s all you can do. I was like, that’s all you can do.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
It’s a tough one. And even then I like, I feel a bit self-conscious like, oh, I can’t do this. Like, I can’t let, I don’t think Aaron, like Aaron’s, I don’t think is a fan of that.
He’s like, can we just not use poll quotes? We have to like use it. You do have to use them. And you know, I’m still, I’m still at the point where I’m like, you know, I don’t like to talk like it’s like, oh, what are you working on? I start sharing, staring at my shoes and stuff.
I’m not yet at the point where I’m like ready to, to boost my stuff. But that’s exactly what you have to do is like, you know, if you get those five stars, you’ve got to talk about those five stars. Or if you’re selling out, you’re selling out.
You got to tell people about it, you know? For sure. For sure. But you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, there’s a certain awkwardness with doing that.
It’s, it can be difficult to, to walk up or to, to be like, you know what? My show is great. You should come and see my show. It’s great.
It’s awesome. The best thing you see. Yeah.
Right. And yet there are people who don’t have a problem with that. Like I’ll watch some people work magic at a fringe line or just like somehow they’re just like, I don’t know how anybody does it.
It’s like the, I mean, I haven’t, I’m nowhere near like good at it because I have to like breathe into a paper bag before I walk up to a line of people. I might be like, okay, I can do this, you know? And then like start talking about this show that I’m doing. Yeah.
And you know, I don’t know, I never got this in, in Toronto, but I’ve heard, oh, it’s the worst. Like I’ve been in line for Frenchos in Toronto and somebody critiques somebody’s line pitch. You know, um, if you had said that at the beginning of your pitch, I’d be more inclined to see your show.
I’ve never encountered that. It’s like the worst thing to have somebody like, here’s my show. And somebody goes, you know what? Your, your pitch could be better.
Holy. And it’s like, uh, you know what, sir, you do this here, take my flyers and you show me how it’s done. And so the one I always get is, yeah, we’ve already made our choices for Frenchos.
We don’t really have time to see this. Thanks. There’s that one.
That’s the one I always hear. Uh, when I was in, when I was doing the last man on earth in Calgary, we got, um, I’ve already, no, no, I’m not going to see your show. Like it was the only place where some people would look you in the eye and go, I’m not coming to see your show.
Wow. Yeah. Wow.
I had somebody say, they gave me the flyer back and they said, save the tree. I was like, tree died. Tree’s dead.
This is dead. The tree can no longer be saved. It’s been printed.
I wanted to explain to people, do you understand the transaction here? The transaction is I give you a flyer. You take the flyer. And then I don’t know if you come to the show, you do not have to look me in the eye and crush all my dreams and say, I’m not coming to see your show.
You can smile and nod and take this thing. And then as soon as I’m out of eyeshot, you can throw it in the garbage. I don’t need to know.
You do not need to crush all my hopes and dreams today. Wow. Brutal.
We talked about like where your inspiration for your own sons came from. Um, and I think you started writing that at one of the writing retreats or you were working on. I did.
Yeah. Yeah. I started that.
That was at the second time I did your writer’s retreat. I worked on when, when you’re writing something. And I mean, do you, do you, how much planning do you do? Or do you just sort of like take the paper and like, you’ve got the idea and you just sort of take a run at it and worry about playing planning later.
Oh God, no, no. I’m, I’m much more of a planner. I, and that’s comes all the way back to when I first started writing plays.
Um, I didn’t really learn how I didn’t really learn playwriting in any sort of, you know, educational course. Um, I took a couple of classes at, when I was in school, but at that point in time I was, I was learning directing and dramaturgy. So I was learning, I was learning theater.
I think from, from, from a much more constructive, not constructive, but a much more, um, uh, from a planning perspective, right? Like, you know, these, these are the structure, these are the dramatic structures. This is the dramatic structure within the, within the play. You know, these are the characters, these are the roles, the characters play, you know, from a dramaturgical perspective.
And I, and this was Canadian, like the Canadian dramaturgy as opposed to sort of your European dramaturgy, uh, or sort of American dramaturgy, which is more about like, what’s the background of the play and then, you know, time period and things like that. Whereas Canadian dramaturgy is much more about, has kind of morphed into this much more to a, a, a play development standpoint. So I was learning dramaturgy from the standpoint of, you know, developing a show, right? Like developing a play.
So once again, I was, I was looking at structure and plot and character. Uh, so I was, I was always much more interested in the dynamics of a scene, right? So, you know, I’d look at a scene and go, okay, here, here’s the beats. Here’s the wins and losses.
Here’s where the status changes. So when I got to writing plays, I, I came at it from a very planning standpoint. Um, you know, there was a, there was a great playwriting book.
I still go back to, um, which was, you know, it had, had all, it was an outline, right? It was like, here’s the name of the play character, main character, supporting character. What’s the setting? What’s the occasion? What’s the dramatic premise? How does it manifest in action? Um, and when I, when I started doing that, it kind of kept me on track because I really, I hate plot. Like I’m like, plots are very, it’s a very nefarious, nebulous thing for me.
Right. Like I always, I always worry when I look at my plays, I’m like, oh, well, how does this scene lean into the other? Cause, cause, cause, cause, right. But then I also like, oh, I’ll see, I’ll see some plays and it’s not like, oh, this narrative thing leads directly into this narrative thing.
It’s event that’s, it’s not as prescriptive in that sense. Yeah. But I’m not, I also don’t like doing freeform stuff because I find, I, I don’t know.
I, I find that it, it, I work better with some sort of an end goal in mind. Um, you know, but that, you know, that being said, when I was working on, when I was working at the, uh, the retreat on your own sons, I kind of was like, well, these are some of the scenes that I, sure I need to do. Uh, or when I was doing Mr. Right, I was like, I’m back.
Basically it was just back and forth between, you know, Nathan and Shelley, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Right. Which was a lot of fun.
Right. Um, but no, I, I usually like, I love scene cards. I love the cue cards and just putting them on the cork board and going, yeah, that kind of works in that way.
But writing since I, since I’ve been doing my MFA this past year, writing in different forms presents different challenges, right? Like writing fiction is, is a very strange beast. Yeah. Uh, uh, challenging in a lot of ways.
Um, not as complicated as, as playwriting though, in other ways. Uh, like one of the things I’ve, I’ve noticed, you know, in fiction, you could write like two or three pages of a character who’s like standing still and observing the world and reacting. Whereas in a play that’s dead.
Yeah. That’s death. Yeah.
So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s interesting, you know, like what’s the, what’s the stereotype? Like never write a play about a writer, you know, and how much fiction is about writers. Oh, like so much. Right.
Yeah. But it works because it works because on the page you can, people can watch things and it’s very difficult to just like not move and watch things on stage. Yeah.
Um, I’m, I tend to be more of a seat of your pants writer. Um, generally. I’ve noticed that.
Yeah. I’ve noticed that. Yeah.
That’s generally how I write. Um, whether it, and you know what, I, I tend to like just take a run at something and then like editing. I mean, yes.
Editing becomes a bitch when you take a run at something and you then have to fix it later, but that’s just the way it works. Doesn’t it feel great when you finish that first draft? Oh fuck. It feels so amazing.
I realized, I realized what’s like, someone asked me, what’s your favourite part of playwriting? I’m like, finish the first, finishing the first draft. Finishing the first draft is the finish is the best. It is the best.
Um, starting to edit that first draft is less, is less exciting. It’s less exciting. So you have to have a glass of wine.
I always give myself like two to three weeks before I start to, oh man, what a luxury. I always wish I did that. I finish it and then I’m like, I need to step away.
God, I should do that. And then I come back at it like after I’ve got some distance. Once I don’t feel like once being like, Oh, this bit’s garbage.
Doesn’t quite hurt so much. Cause I have distance from it. Right.
I can be a little more brutal with my writing. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t, I’m not precious about it anymore. See, it’s interesting.
I don’t since, since I’ve basically, I’ve acted in almost all the stuff that I’ve written with the, with the exception of just a handful of stuff, I think I’m sometimes far more brutal on myself in the, in the rewrite process. Like I, one of the things that we were going through rehearsal this past week, I said to Aaron, listen, I’m in the room as an actor. And he’s like, I know.
Yeah. And I’m like, yeah. So free reign.
He’s like, thanks. Good to know. Yeah.
And it was like, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. And I’m like, okay, I don’t care. I don’t care.
Cause I always find that at least for me, once I’m on the stage, my, I think my ability to sort of, uh, trust in the words isn’t always, isn’t always as on point as opposed to if I’m sitting in the chair watching what’s happening. Sure. What I’ve actually found is like the first time that I, if like, if it’s solo piece, if I read it for somebody or the first time that I have people read it, I’m like, Nope.
If I’m, if I’m like reading my own solo piece, then I’m like, I edit on the fly. I’m like, no, this is not working. It’s not working, but I can, I can be so much brutal hearing it than reading it.
I’m so much more forgiving. If I can just, if I’m looking at the page, but as soon as people are reading it, you’re like, Oh, Nope, Nope. That is not working.
Yeah. I, I’ve also realized that, uh, first reads of my work are terrifying. Oh, always, always.
I didn’t think that. No, I didn’t think that was the case, but, but it was, it’s only something I’ve become aware of in the last few years that when I give a, give a piece that’s never been read before to be read, it’s like, I actually exhibited like anxiety signs. Even if it’s just like, if there’s no audience except for the actors, I’m still like, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Fidgety. And yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause I, this is like the first time that it doesn’t exist in my head and that somebody needs to make sense of the words that, cause I know what all this stuff means, but it doesn’t mean something for somebody else.
And that, that’s where it becomes like, what if it doesn’t mean what I think it means, you know, none of it makes any sense anymore, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It’s yeah.
It was quite, yeah. And I, I think I, I’ve, I’ve gained a lot of use in, in recording these, these first read sessions and the feedback because I can’t take notes after these things. Like it’s, it’s, I try, but I just, I become too, you know, all I do is like cut and maybe make small notes and it doesn’t serve me well.
So when, so like, yeah, I mean, you know, a lot of the, the, the evolution of Your Own Sons came, came from sort of post first read discussions where I just like pressed record on my phone and went, oh, oh, that’s a really good point there. That’s a good point. I find those discussions are super helpful, but it’s a good idea to record them because like you, I get caught up in the discussion.
That’s what I mean. And I assume I’m going to remember it. And you never do.
There was something I was supposed to remember here. Yeah. Yeah.
How have you felt that Your Own Sons, like what’s been the biggest change in it? From the fringe to this one? Yeah. The biggest change has been the expansion of the character of Dan, who’s the father that I’m playing. Dan in the, in the last, in the last show that we did in the fringe, Dan, Dan’s role was essentially as this ghost on stage reciting this monologue.
And then sort of, he manifested at the end and was someone that, that the character of Pauline, the mother sort of encounters at the end. And he was sort of always on the sidelines. He was on the sidelines.
In this, this role, we basically tackled him as, as, as another, as another character on stage who is interacting with, with characters of, you know, characters in his life on his own journey to, towards discovery. So what’s happening now is you, is you essentially have, instead of, instead of just Pauline sort of confronting these different characters and Dan kind of being this, I don’t know, this wandering planet, if you will, in orbit, it’s really kind of like the two of them are in orbit around each other until at the very end, they kind of find each other and, and we’re, we’re really able to spend more time with him. That being said, his, I’m finding that the scenes that I’ve written for Dan still have on almost a very short, short episodic feel to them.
Sure. And I’m not sure why that is. It, it may because, because in some ways he still is a bit of a newer character.
Yeah. Maybe just because, you know, he’s, he’s a character that’s in deep, deep grief and, you know, there’s, I think there’s only so long that that sort of carries on, like that can be played. But yeah, the expansion of Dan and, and also the, the, the use of the, the, the other characters, which is basically the other four characters as functioning as kind of a chorus.
So there’s cast doubling that’s going on, which is something I always like. I always enjoy that in pieces. When does it open? It opens April 19th at the Pearl Company.
Yeah. And it runs for two weeks. So April 19th, 20th and 21st, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
And then the following week it’s, it’s 26th, 27th and 28th. Nice. On the 28th we have a matinee.
We have one matinee. We’re going to try it. See if we get a matinee.
See if it will come out. See what comes out. Yeah.
Have you never, have you not, have you not tried matinees before? We have tried a matinee actually. And two years ago our company did, did an American play called Two Rooms and we had an, had a matinee on Saturday and it did really well. So I don’t see, I don’t anticipate there’ll be that much of an issue.
Yeah. I think it’s going to be, I look forward to it. I look forward to it.
Nice. Well, Stephen, thank you so much for, for talking to me today. Thank you so much for having me, Phil.
It’s been a real pleasure talking with you. This has been a Homebody Productions production.
