Indie Theatre Creators Roundtable
These awesome indie theatre creators sat down with host Phil Rickaby as part of the first Indie Theatre Creators Roundtable: Christel Bartelse, Victoria Urquhart, Victoria Velenosi, and Janelle Hanna.
Christel Bartelse is an Actor, Comic, Writer, Teacher, and Solo Show creator living in Toronto. She is a graduate of the Second City Conservatory Program, Randolph Academy for the Performing Arts and has studied Clown extensively with John Turner & Michael Kennard (Mump and Smoot) as well as Sue Morrison, Philippe Gaulier and Francine Cote.She had the pleasure of performing with Mump and Smoot in “Something” at the Westbury Theatre in Edmonton.
She is a member of Faustwork Mask Theatre/Prologue for the Performing Arts and performs the show The Mask Messenger in schools regularly.
In 2008 she developed her first solo show “CHAOTICA” which went onto to win numerous awards and garnered rave reviews. She developed 2 other solo shows “ONEymoon” & “Significant Me” and all three solo shows have been nominated for a Canadian Comedy Award “Best One Person Show”.Christel continues to tour her work, and has toured across Canada, to the US & the UK. She has been teaching for over 15 years. She has taught Improv at the Second City, teaches Mask, Clown, Dance, Movement, independently to schools all across the GTA and currently teaches Clown/Movement at the Toronto Film School and teaches and directs Clowns at Humber College in the Comedy & Writing Program.
http://christelbartelse.com/
Twitter:@cbartelse
Victoria Urquhart is a Toronto-based actor and director from Caledon. She is also a graduate from the University of Windsor’s 2010 B.F.A. Acting Program. This training has helped her to develop a focus on marrying Physical Theatre Practices with Classical Text. This fascination, combined with her leadership and organizational skills developed through working six consecutive summers at a residential camp have led her to a passion for directing, and the creation of The Spur-Of-The-Moment Shakespeare Collective in Toronto. Through the SOTMSC, she has directed, produced, and sometimes performed in several community projects, including the Shakespeare-On-The-Subway Project, several sessions of Shakespeare-In-Hospitals, and JULIUS CAESAR PROJECT, garnering 4 N’s from NOW magazine at the 2014 Toronto Fringe Festival. Other theatre credits include: Waiting for Alonzo with Empty Box Theatre (2015), Teach Me with Newborn Theatre, and Macbeth with Hart House Theatre.
Twitter: @gnitenet
Victoria Velenosi is a storyteller and tells stories to anyone who will listen. She is half of the partnership that runs Brick and Mortar, home of The Attic, The Box and The Commons. At any given time, she can be found either on stage, behind a computer, or under a pile of cats. Most impressive credits include a list of shows you’ve probably never heard of. ☺
Vikki is a graduate of the University of Windsor Acting Program and Straeon Acting Studios. Vikki believes that every artist has an important voice and, with the right stage, they can change the world. #DREAMBIGGER
Janelle Hanna is an actor, educator, and short sassy woman, and is thrilled to be premiering her first full length solo show Bad Baby Presents: Rules Control the Fun at the Toronto Fringe. Other Fringe credits include: Eternal Friendship with a Spotless Smile (Patron’s Pick),Virginia Aldridge, BSc, Sitting in a Tree, and Fantastic Extravagance. Other credits include: Frankenstein Live (The Arts Engine), Knot Tied (Lab Cab Festival), Eligible(BravoFact), Neighbourhood Watch, The Duvet (Film Army), Swell Broad,Commencement (Convection Productions), Last Man Hanged, Ring Round the Moon, Pillar to Port Walkabout (Gairbraid Theatre), Anne of Green Gables (Stirling Festival Theatre). Janelle is a graduate of the Masters in Acting program at York University where she played such roles as Cordelia/Foole in King Lear, the Knight in The Knight of the Burning Pestle, Volumnia in Coriolanus, Alcestis in Alcestis, and Flute/Thisbe in A Midsummer Night’s Dream. She is also a graduate of the joint acting program at Sheridan College and the University of Toronto Mississauga (Theatre Erindale)
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Transcript
Welcome to episode 120 of Stageworthy. I’m your host, Phil Rickaby. Stageworthy is a podcast about people in Canadian theatre featuring conversations with actors, directors, playwrights, and more.
If you like the podcast, I hope you will leave a comment or rating on Apple Podcasts, Google Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your ratings and comments help new people find the show, or even better, if you know someone who you think will like the show, tell them about it. Some of my favourite podcasts became my favourites because someone I knew told me about them.
And if you want to tell me about somebody that you introduced to the show, or the person who introduced you, or you just want to drop me a line with your questions or comments, I would love to hear from you. You can find Stageworthy on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at StageworthyPod, and you can find their website at stageworthypodcast.com. And if you want to drop me a line, you can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Phil Rickaby, and my website is philrickaby.com. This week is my first Indie Creators Roundtable with Christel Bartelse, Victoria Urquhart, Victoria Velenosi, and Janelle Hanna. I’m Christel Bartelse.
I’m an actor, theatre maker, comedian, clown, writer, kind of. I’m sure we all do it all. And mostly known for creating one-person shows, I guess.
Yeah. Yeah. Cool.
I’m Victoria Urquhart. I run the Spur of the Moment Shakespeare Collective. I’m an artistic director, an executive director, producer, director.
But I’m also an actor, and creator, and storyteller, and sometimes marketer, but first and foremost storyteller. Awesome. I’m Victoria Velenosi.
I run Brick and Mortar Theatre and Studios, and then the rest of the list of things. Yeah. Storytelling is definitely on there.
Recently political disruptor. This is new. My job is adding titles.
Most accurate description of what I do. I just keep adding titles to whatever I’m doing. I’m Janelle Hanna.
I’m an actor. I’ve written a little bit. I don’t know if I call myself a writer yet.
That’s still weird for me. I’ve produced, probably as we all have. So I’d say yeah, actor, writer, producer.
I teach a little bit as well. So that’s me. Victoria, this is the first time I’ve heard political disruptor in your title.
Oh, yeah. It’s new. I’m curious a little bit about that.
I’m so curious. I wanted to know. I’ve partnered with some fellow political disruptors.
It’s my business partner’s fault because she did it first. So Casey, Dan, and I, we run Brick and Mortar. She got hooked up with A Strong Canada last year, which is they developed this organisation to stop American-style polarisation of politics in Canada.
So during the federal election, where they were electing their leader for the Conservative Party, they went in and suggested to people that they join the Conservative Party, especially if they weren’t Conservative, so that then they could vote in that initial election where you find out who your leader is. So I got involved in that a little bit. And now we’re doing something similar for the Toronto election.
There’s no partisanism, but there’s a lot of shady stuff that goes on that we’re working toward changing and stopping. And yeah, politics is a lot like theatre, man. There’s egos as well, and a lot of the same people wanting to really influence and make a difference, and then all of the obstacles of people who are fighting against that.
There’s a lot of stuff. It’s a lot to go through, but it’s exciting as well. Now, do you find that the political disruption bleeds into your work as a theatre creator? Oh, for sure, yeah.
How does that happen? I find that my theatre creation has kind of moved into that area now. And it’s not so much even theatre at the very moment. It’s more film stuff, and we’re working on a lot of different videos, and my storytelling abilities are very well-received there, where not a lot of people who are in politics are offering messages all the time.
Not a lot of them are taking a storytelling approach to it, so I’m finding I have value there, which is a nice change. So in terms of being indie creators, what is it that made you guys choose or start producing on your own? Yeah. For me, I think it was just wanting to create and wanting to do the work, and coming straight out of theatre school and not wanting to wait for a phone call, you know? So still having the agent, but I just had a passion for that really early on, because I think it was through an improv class as well.
I was like, oh, you can create characters. Oh, you can go off and write sketches. I sort of started in that comedy realm.
So that’s where it started for me. I don’t think I thought that’s what I would be doing, but then you kind of fall into it. Even for me, I wrote one solo show.
I was like, that’s the thing I want to do, and then it just keeps happening. So now you’re sort of in it. I mean, you finished theatre school and almost immediately started creating.
Yeah. Was there anything in theatre school that encouraged you to do that? Oh, yes. So I went to a theatre school.
Yeah, I’ll just say I went to Randolph, and I met my comedy partner at the time there. We had a real dance and acting background, both her and I, but the school is very musical, yeah, kind of music heavy, and we weren’t musical theatre people. So when it came to the last term, they were putting on a musical, and they actually said they didn’t want us to be in the show, because we weren’t musical theatre.
And we were always the class clowns and always the comedians. So they said, why don’t you guys do your own two woman show, and then everyone else will do the musical. And we were like, that’s awesome.
And then they cut the budget. And then they said, actually, we don’t have time or money for that. So we referred to ourselves as burnt marshmallows.
And then that was my first comedy deal, which we had huge success with that for six years. But yeah, so that’s where it came out of. So we made a pact on that day that we would get out of theatre school and write our own show, a two woman comedy show.
So that’s where that came. So thanks to them, I feel great. Yeah.
And then when my comedy partner eventually moved away, she said she wanted to move out west. And I was really that was I call the worst breakup of my life because I was just left alone. And we had done everything together 24 seven for six years.
So that’s when I was like, okay, now I’ll just create a solo show. Yeah. Was there any trepidation about creating a solo show? Did you ever feel? Oh, well, of course, the first one, you have no idea what you’re doing.
But it’s something I had wanted to do and not wanting to do it when her and I were together, because I was like, I don’t want to abandon you and go off and write a solo show. But she went off and wrote one as well. Because I think that was sort of the next thing.
Sure. Yeah, yeah. Cool.
But yeah, you don’t know what you’re doing. We’ve we’ve chatted. We’ve talked about that.
Also, I don’t think at the time I hadn’t performed it yet. I didn’t quite know how addictive it is. Right.
Right. So yeah, yeah. Ah, where did where did it start? Where did? Oh, wow.
Uh, I, I hadn’t even graduated from school yet. And I was feeling embittered. I don’t think that’s uncommon.
No, no. Honestly, the structure with which Theatre Ontario was created, it was very much a what’s the word? It’s a pony show. And it was very much like, it wasn’t community based at the time.
Okay, they made some great effort with different things to make it community based. And now it is a lot better. And I feel so much better about the grads that are coming out.
Because it isn’t made so competitive. And so I so much an elitism thing. Because there are also a bunch of schools that don’t get to go to Theatre Ontario that have great abilities.
And they have to create their own kind of industry day. So I walked out of that feeling mighty embittered, and going, I don’t want to go into the industry feeling like this. And there’s got to be something more.
I think for me, a lot of it was there has to be something more than what my theatre school is telling me is out there. Because I also felt like if I wasn’t going to Stratford, what else was there? With my class, especially, and with the stream that I was in, it was like, everybody was gunning for that. And everybody was starting to talk about the agents that called them and everything.
And I didn’t get any calls. And I was like, well, no, fuck it. I think I’ve asked you this every time I quit.
I can swear. But yeah, it’s a fuck it. I’m gonna go and make my own work.
And I’m gonna go and connect with people from other schools and, and get a community of artists together who don’t give a damn about, about agents and, and whether we have representation or not. And then from there, from there, I really picked up on the necessity of community in the work that I was doing, because the, the Subway, the Shakespeare on the Subway project was the first one that I did. And then that shifted over to Shakespeare in Hospitals.
And there, there was this weird shift that happened with having this company move on, move on to the next project. I thought it was just gonna be done after the Subway. And then everybody kind of stuck together after Subways.
And I realized like, there was something else going on there. And it wasn’t, and it wasn’t just, oh, I want to make another project with you. It’s I believe in this thing that we’ve created.
And I believe in the next thing that it’s going to bring. Um, so yeah, that’s, I mean, that’s where my company came from. That’s, that’s where being a creator came from, for me is a lot about the community.
And how long have you been doing Shakespeare in Hospitals again? Like, what’s, what’s, when are we? 2018. So seven years. 2010 was, was Subway.
And then 2011, we started on Hospitals. Time. Sorry.
Every, every, like, every time I come in here, I think I mumble something. Well, I mean, you’re always starting into that season again. Oh, that seasons.
I’m in the middle of that. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So grads. Victoria.
I, Victoria, other Victoria. We both went to University of Windsor. And I think that you hit it on the head there with like, when did you become the real question is when did you become embittered? Oh, yes.
I think that was sometime in university, but I started creating my own stuff for totally terrible reasons. I wanted to, I got it in my head that in order to be hired, if you weren’t getting those auditions, that you should create your own work so that then those artistic directors could come and see you, which they don’t. But I thought, you know, I mean, you think back and think what a, or I think back, think that what an idiot, but I, that was what I knew.
So I made theater out of my apartment, like literally that was what I did, but it was for all the wrong reasons. I really was like, then I’ll network more and then I’ll get hired. And then that will be the real, that’ll be the real life because I had literally been taught and indoctrinated that that was the way that you did theater.
And that was how you had a career and that’s how you made it in the industry. And, um, you know, I don’t think if I, if I’d stayed with that way of thinking, I wouldn’t have kept going with having space or providing space. And so what I, where I’ve evolved to over the eight years, I don’t know, six years, I guess what space is probably about six years now, uh, six or seven is to the point of like, is very aligned with what you said, Victoria is that, uh, not being able to make it is bullshit.
That’s there’s, there’s this statistic that hangs over all of us. Like, you know, probably in school, only one of you will make it. What does that mean? Because you know what the thing with that too, is it they’re not wrong in saying, invite these people out, but what they are wrong in saying is that they’ll come, not necessarily like at all, like, cause they will come, but they’re not going to come.
If they don’t know you, they don’t, they’re not going to, well, they may come if they don’t know you, if you make the right introduction, right. The thing is, is that the introduction doesn’t start with the, Hey, please come see my show. It starts with the, Hey, I just saw your show and your show was great.
Or Hey, like meeting them in person, which is hard. And like, these are the steps that like are being talked about now in the industry and in, in theater schools is, you know, uh, talking about how to build an ensemble that isn’t at each other’s throats and how to, uh, how to reach out to other people to go and see your work without just expecting them to be there. Not saying that that’s what you or I did at all.
That totally was what I did. But the, the, the, like the notion of, okay, so here’s how you have to get someone to notice you without making it a diva, like that, not saying that that’s what you did again. That’s what I did one point or another being like, Oh yes, they’ll just come to come to the subways.
And you know what? I think there’s a, there’s this formality that, that I thought was there. That wasn’t worth it with just reaching out to somebody and saying, hi, uh, can I talk to you? Can I buy you a coffee? Like I was horrified at the, even the thought of that. And when, you know, if anybody, I, I know, I can, I feel now like I’m in a position where I could say to somebody at least, Hey, what would it take for me to get a few minutes of your time to see your brain? I feel confident enough to say that.
And I haven’t, nothing’s really changed where I’m not. And I didn’t do anything to make myself more worthy, but I didn’t feel like that was even a possibility. I felt like there was an, this invisible glass wall that I couldn’t get past and it was improper to get past.
And I think that’s kind of groomed people for feeling that way, that there’s like, that there’s things that you can’t go, there’s a hierarchy and don’t you dare step out of it. I remember sitting in Shakespeare class and being told about this one woman who was told to, she came in and she, they were trying to break down how unprepared she was. And she hadn’t read the script and all of these things.
And, um, and because she hadn’t done all of these things and she just didn’t know they made her reread the same line over and over again and like publicly humiliated her. And the fact of the matter is in order to learn anything in this industry, you have to make mistakes and you, and especially in your craft and maybe like the lesson of read the plays long gone on me. Um, I get so empathetic to, towards artists who, uh, have never read a, like a Shakespeare in their lives, um, and come at it with this sense of newness, but also what a gift that is for people who come to it with such a newness.
Um, and I don’t, I don’t think it’s fair that we, that we shame someone in the industry for that. Yeah. I, I like to think that we’re slowly, slowly, but surely moving toward an industry where it’s not okay to shame and bully actors just because they are vulnerable under the, under the guise of it’s their fault.
Like, Oh, they’re asking for it. They’re asking to be abused. Like it just, it brings a whole other conversation is happening though.
Now there’s a lot of theater schools, you know, it’s all in the news right now. It is, it is. I mean, it’s been a long time coming.
I mean, as somebody who was a student at George Brown in the early nineties and still then, I mean, people from even before then have been talking about the, the trauma of going to, to that. Not just that. I mean, a lot of theater schools had it, but like you can’t do your best work when you’re terrified and a lot of schools keep you terrified.
You can’t learn if you’re terrified, not in the way that you could, if you felt supported. Exactly. It’s interesting, uh, Victoria, that you were saying about, about how you felt like producing was, uh, uh, something that you had to do, because that’s a complete change.
When I was in theater school where they almost said, look, if you can’t make it on your own, then maybe you could produce. There was a bit of that feeling to a hundred percent felt like there was a lot of shame around producing my own work where it was like, well, I mean, I remember saying to a professor, he said, you know, Oh, it’s really nice. You’re got the theater, the theater space.
And he actually was using my space. And I said, you know, I, I, there’s a lot of brunettes out there that, you know, are in their twenties. And so I’ve got to, I’ve got to do what I can.
I felt like I had to justify it and be like, well, you know, I mean, it’s not really my fault. It’s just, you know, I wanted to be able to do something. And yeah, I just want to speak on that though.
Cause I think the times have changed with that as well. Cause I agree. Like I remember very early on producing my own work and it was like, people almost felt sorry for you, you know, but then now, now there’s all these people going like, I guess that’s what we got to do.
We’ve got to make our own work. So we’re already, you know, 10 steps ahead, you know what I mean? I’m just saying it’s changing now, you know? So, um, but there’s still people that are terrified to do that. They don’t know the first step of that.
So, you know, I think it’s a, a great thing that thrown into it at an early age, you know, for whatever your reason was, you know, having to learn that. Yeah. And it also just makes you so appreciative when someone takes one of those hats for you.
So appreciative. And so like, I will never walk into any production ever again and like get mad at someone because they’re bugging me about my bio. Not that that ever happened to me, but, um, like I’ve, I’ve walked into a few spaces and seen a few things happen where I’ve gone, they have never produced.
Yeah. You do learn to appreciate it. And like for me and talking about theater schools, maybe I think it depends on what school too, because I went to UTM Sheridan where we didn’t really create a whole lot of our own stuff.
Sometimes we did, but then York for me had such a push to create your own stuff. Um, and it was a huge drive of what they are. So maybe it depends on where to, um, but yeah, you do appreciate it so much more.
Like, cause when I was in theater school twice, um, you, uh, you have a wardrobe designer and a crew and all this stuff. And then, uh, you know, when I left undergrad, I was like, Oh, never going to be that good again. So you do learn to appreciate just the gift.
It is to have a massive team because so often on your own, especially doing like solo work, you know, you’re lucky. There is almost that feeling in theater school when they have all of those things. You’re like, Oh, this is what real theater is like.
And then when you start doing it yourself, you’re like, this could be real theater. Well, it is real. I know, but you’re, you’re like taught that like, or you’re like, sort of like you’ve seen that like, Oh, it’s real theater.
If there’s a costume designer, somebody who’s building the costumes, there’s a stage manager and there’s somebody building sets and all that stuff. I spend a lot of time very frustrated right out of school in like, you know, it took me about three or four productions of being like, this is not how it should be. This is not how it should be.
This isn’t how it should be either. And I was very frustrated until I got to the point where I was like, maybe this is how it is. And that wasn’t how it is.
You know, I don’t know. Maybe I’m, I’ve messed this up. I, I would have loved to have had a more of an education on how, on the reason behind why the, on the why, I guess, on why theater, why this relationship between an audience member and a performer, why do it? Why tell a story? Why? And that sort of felt lost to me every once in a while.
I can remember hearing, you know, like old tropes of theater of like, you know, you have to pretend like the audience isn’t there, like something like that, where like, it’s like, okay, what does that all mean? And trying to mash that all together into a lie is I feel like what my career so far has been is trying to decode all of the things that I learned and find out the why again, because I, I never, I never really, I feel like I had the why very early on when I first started, I was like, no, this is the thing that I need to do. And I, maybe I didn’t quite know how to put into words why, but then I started being focused on doing stuff and how to do stuff and what I needed to do and then what I needed to do after that. And then it was a lot of day to day, go to the audition and do the thing and do this and do this and do this.
And then what am I doing? You know, because I didn’t have that why behind it. So I think that I would love, I would love to see that in theater schools and have people come out going, this is why I do theater. It’s so funny because you just made me think of it because I’m work at Humber as well, but in the comedy program.
So, uh, so I’m dealing with all the standup comedians, but it’s so funny because I’m doing clowning with them now. And so I’m just teaching them that because I think that’s my own. And I’m like, we break that fourth wall.
We, you, you know, you’re addressing the audience. So, and, and through teaching them, I, you know, but it depends on your training, but that’s like so much what I believe in, you know? So I’m, I think I’m teaching them the opposite, like, no, we don’t have a fourth wall, you know? It’s kind of funny because, because, you know, yeah, we were taught about the fourth wall and all that stuff. And I’ve done so many things where I know, of course what you do as well.
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s just like, just options, right? That there’s other worlds.
I think that’s what we’re getting to. I think the fourth wall is appropriate to teach very small children when they’re on stage and they want to wave at their mom. That is where you tell that lesson.
Yeah. Pretend there’s a wall here. Just pretend it doesn’t exist.
So then they can focus and do what they need. But I think as a career to say, as a general philosophy, it’s very problematic. It’s funny because I remember doing Shakespeare at school and we were all like, you know, just like doing the whole, you know, your scene partner and things like that.
And then we get to the soliloquy. We don’t be like, so who am I talking to? Like, I don’t understand who I’m talking to. And no teacher ever said, just talk to the audience.
We were still like fourth wall. So I’m talking to myself, my outer inner self. And it doesn’t help when you’re going and auditioning for theater schools and they say, don’t address me.
And you’re doing a soliloquy as your audition piece. I’m not eating a sandwich. And then you go to audition for York and they’re like, oh, look at me.
Yeah. I’m like, oh, okay. Yeah.
Like they want you to. So, but of course you get, everyone’s like, don’t. What started you on the, the self producing, the indie producing route? Yeah.
Also, I’m just like, so excited to be here. Cause already it’s such a fun conversation. Um, there’s so many things running through my brain.
Uh, what started it? I certainly like left my undergrad, uh, with no notions of creating my own work. Um, I created, you know, a couple of characters and a couple of pieces of writing, I guess in undergrad, but then I think it’s just working, um, with, uh, some people like Lauren Harris, who creates so much her own work and solo work. And, um, you know, the lovely, like Brianna Brown who writes and directs and just people who I was working with who were creating their own work.
Um, and then going to York, there is, as I said, like a huge push to create your own stuff. Um, and I think leaving York, I was like, yeah, I really, I want to do a solo show. And I knew that was in the back of my brain.
Um, and, um, just like, couldn’t wait to do it anymore because I was waiting, you know, and like, no, one’s gonna present it to me. Right. So, um, I did something that maybe not everybody would do, but like, I just submitted for fringe and then I was like, if I get it and it’s it, we’re doing it.
And I got in this way, I gotta write. I think a lot of people do, you know, you might say, you know, not a lot of people do that. I think a lot of people do.
Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
Sure. Also it can be really heartbreaking to have a, a thing and you don’t get pulled. I’m like that right now.
Yeah. You know, but, um, thriving on deadlines though, you know, for sure. I love that.
What was it that made you want to do a solo show? Was there something that, that, that in sort of like drove you towards that? Yeah. Um, at York in between your first and your second year, um, in the MFA, you have to kind of the first day back, you have to present your findings for your thesis, like your research. Um, and that could be like, that’s anything you want.
It doesn’t have to be a show. You know, you can sit and read your research if you want, but, um, for all of us, it was a show. And so there I did a, like a 15 minute solo piece with three different characters.
And the concept that came out of that, um, was something I wanted to try in a, in a bigger, um, piece. So yeah, having done that, it was like, yeah, I got to do that again because, and it was playing with the audience and, and, um, and breaking their expectations and that excited me so much and that, uh, I wanted to play with that more. So that’s kind of, that’s one of the major reasons why I wanted to, uh, do it.
And I also just had stuff I want to say and I, um, I didn’t, I just wanted to say it. Yeah. You know, when you started producing for Fringe, this was like your first time producing, was it? Uh, no, I produced something in the past, but not for like four or five years.
And that was like a, uh, like a ensemble piece. Okay. Was there something that surprised you or something you were, that was, you were felt completely unprepared for when you started producing the show? Hmm.
Well, I had a, I should say I had a producing partner that was awesome. So yes, it is because, uh, we really balance each other out. Um, Chris is way, I’m just not a great writer when it comes to promotional things and even trying to describe the show is really difficult.
So he helped in like a massive way, I need to say. Um, but what surprised me, um, I think the, from a producing standpoint, now, if I ever do this show again, which I hope, uh, I get to is just the parts of the show that people connected with. We didn’t really expect, like we did to a point, but we were like, oh, wow, that’s how we need to sell this show.
That’s how we need to describe this show. Cause that’s what everybody kept picking up on. And so you learn from doing right.
And so, um, this particularly for anyone who saw that show, very difficult show to sell without, uh, giving it away. Um, and it’s a, yeah. So we struggled with that.
So certainly I learned a lot about how to market it next time. Well, promotion is hard. Yeah.
Like I’ve always found like the most difficult thing to be promotion. Like it’s hard enough to talk about your own work for one thing, but to do it in such a way that’s concise enough and interesting enough to make somebody want to come and see it. For sure.
Especially at fringe too. Right. When you’re like competing, but there are just so, um, many other shows coming at you.
Right. So, um, yeah. Do you guys remember what your biggest surprises were for, uh, producing on your own the first time? I just always say that producing takes 90% and then the show is like 10%.
I think that’s all. It’s really, um, you know, I still learn. I just juggling when you have what hat on, you know, and I’ve driven directors nuts because we’ll be in the middle of rehearsal and then I’ll be like, Oh, and by the way, I’ve just got to add, you know, upload my postcard.
Uh, you know? Um, so I, I think just, that’s something I’m just really working on is knowing when to shut it off. Um, yeah. And I just think allotting time to the show versus, you know, all that other emails that admin and all that, you know, and now I’ve asked, just asking for help, you know, and just, just moments of like, okay, I can’t do this all or, you know, getting people.
Yeah. When you started deciding that you could ask for help, was it hard to get to that point? Cause I always find that it’s like this whole like, Oh no, I have to carry it all on my back. Um, I think it’s just, you know, I’ve had experiences in the past too, where I have hired people.
Some have been amazing and blew my mind, but others have like, I’m a control freak. It’s still my, my products. So then they don’t do what I expect of them.
So I’m like, then I’m chasing them and spending more time and energy, making sure they’re doing what I’ve asked of them, you know? Um, but yes, but I still have dreams. I will hire someone one day to be an assistant. Yeah.
But, um, just, just the amount of, yeah. Just the amount of work, I guess, you know, it’s endless and relentless. Yeah.
Yeah. Um, I think, I think the biggest surprise for me, uh, especially when you’re taking your lumps or having your first experiences with any part of producing is that, uh, especially in Canada, people will go to you and be like, Hey, you did a show. Congrats, man.
That’s awesome. Like I can think of so many shows that I’ve done where I’ve gone, I wasn’t invested in the character and I didn’t make these choices and, uh, and then people are like, that was great. I was entertained.
Like even, even if it wasn’t the Oscar nominated performance that you wanted it to be or the, the Dora winning, uh, thing that you had originally envisioned in Canada and the theater community is small and it takes so much time, energy, money to, to make it. And even like, even friends who are critics, who, who write for wherever go up to you, even, even people who are critics and not your friends. And maybe, maybe they totally panned your, your show, but then they went up to you later on in the tent and they’re like, Hey, you did a thing.
Congratulations. Like everybody has this understanding um, that I’ve experienced where, where in, in the Toronto theater community, where it seems to be that no matter, no matter what you did a thing and that took a lot of energy and a lot of money and everybody seems to understand that. Um, yeah, that’s, that’s always been the surprise for me.
Um, especially when I had my first fringe show, um, and I’d spent so much time producing it. Uh, and I, I, it was my first time producing a major fringe show. And there were a lot of mistakes that I made, but there were a lot of people who still enjoyed the show.
Um, thank God for those people. Because if, if I didn’t, if those people didn’t talk to me in that time, I probably like at that time, I would have sunk into a deep hole of despair. And, and why do I suck so hard? Well, it’s interesting because the, the, the thing that the audience sees is not the thing that we see.
And it’s so easy to forget that. Oh yeah. It’s so easy when you’re producing to forget that.
Oh yeah. They, they didn’t see all this other stuff. I forgot to do this and I didn’t do this performance, all this stuff.
They just see what they’re seeing now and they don’t have a frame of reference. And if you don’t tell them, they’ll never know. Exactly.
Yeah. I like, I, the little, I’m trying to think as you guys were talking, like, Oh God, what am I going to say? Um, the, the first thing I found surprising, I think when it was producing a show, it’s, it was a big show and I had a lot of people and a lot of moving parts. It was like insanely ambitious and, uh, but I’m glad I did it.
Uh, was I was astounded that other people wouldn’t do their job and then they wouldn’t like do it the way that I said, like, I was like, what do you, what do you mean? You said you would do this and then you didn’t. And it would just, I spent so much energy being frustrated about that. Like Crystal, like you said, and I, I’m still learning about that.
And along the way I’ve learned that, um, you can, when you’re producing something for, for free essentially, and people are putting in their, their time and their effort and their money, they’re all producers essentially. Like you’re all invested. And I think I, I wish that my, more of my experiences where I was on the other side of it and I was just an actor or whatever.
And I was, I, I wish I had been treated like a co-producer because I, I think that that lack of respect for that other person’s investment, it’s like, Oh, well, I remember thinking you didn’t put any money into this. And of course they did. They took time off their job.
They spent money on transit. They, there are expenses involved in putting up in, in showing up and then also the expensive energy, the expensive time. And I think that I wasn’t very respectful of that.
And that played a part into people feeling like they didn’t want to do what I said. Fair enough. And I think, uh, I also learned to ask people what is in this for you? Why do you want to do this and make sure that I didn’t take that away by accident? Because like, you never know.
It could be like, you know what? I really want to do this because I’ve always wanted to, you know, do a cartwheel on stage. I’m not like, you know, you don’t know what people’s motivation is or like, I want to do this because my grandmother is sick. And like, you know, or like, there’s so many motivations behind something and you can so easily take that one thing away.
Even if it’s that they want to do it. Cause it’s going to be fun. And you take away their goddamn fun.
Now they’ve got zero reason to do it. Yeah. And so kind of flip flopping back and forth from producer to actor in shows where I wasn’t paid.
And then I, or that there was a profit share at the end. I kind of, I’ve come to that conclusion now that you really like people are being, you are paying people in different ways. And if you stopped it, if you stop paying people, it’s like you at a job, if they stopped paying you, you wouldn’t do your job, you wouldn’t show up, you wouldn’t be motivated.
And maybe you wouldn’t even know how to describe why you felt that way, but you’d feel like crap about showing up. But on that, on that note as well, though, I find it very challenging. Okay.
When I’m doing solo work and being the producer and fronting up a lot of the money and then, you know, even whatever, if I’m paying people, whatever our agreement is, and then they come in and then it’s like, Oh, let’s, how was your day? Let’s, you know, how, what did you do on the weekend? And then they want to have a conversation and I hate being that person, but like, then you’re like, I’m like, sorry, we’re on the clock here. You know, like I hate, and I, and I try and be like, Oh, we should be able to chat for 10 minutes, but that’s always ringing in my head too. Like, do you want to go have a coffee after we can do that, but not on, on the clock.
And I find that difficult to, you know, to, to be that person, but it’s also, I’m thinking about that. Yeah. It’s a different perspective to be in a show while producing it as well, while also with people who are not on, who don’t have that mindset, but who you’re also trying to fit in with and have a community with.
It’s tricky. It’s always interesting, a production, a production, like show must go on. We’ve got, we’ve got so many, so many people with so many great diehard attitudes, sometimes too much.
Speaking from my own experience of burning the candle at both ends and knowing that we’ve all, we’ve all bled for our art. All productions, all communities within that production, all ensembles, they get by either by a common goal or a common scapegoat. If there is one person who is the bad guy in the performance, they will get through it because they’re going to stick it to that one person.
And a lot of the time it’s the producer. But I think the, the productions that truly like thrive and, and bring people back for the same reasons. And like they are the productions that have a common goal.
And that is amazing. And that’s also why I see a bunch of companies that hang on to certain company members. And I understand that.
I’m also a huge believer in audition every time. So it’s, it’s interesting. It’s interesting to watch what that dynamic is in every ensemble, in every production.
It’s, it changes a room though, when everybody is on board, everybody is game. Right. And, and yeah, or like you said, it can go totally the other way.
And I think sometimes when it goes the other way, it’s the director is the person we’re all against. Right. And sometimes, yeah, I’ve spent the first week in a bit, like having to get everyone’s trust to be like, I got you, I got this.
And I think my last few experiences, especially working on the fringe with it was so I’m going to change what I was surprised about. I was surprised that even though it was like my solo show that I wrote and I was starring in, I had a team that cared about it like just as much as I did. And it now makes me like want to be that for other people because, and while we were like rehearsing and putting it together, I was like, why are you guys doing this? Like, like it just, it shocked me for so long because I’m like, I don’t know that I would be this generous.
And that experience has made me want to be more generous. And I think being in enough rooms where I do see people just fighting a director right from the day one, it kind of, and York changed this for me too, one particular experience. But now like as an actor, it’s like my job is to make it work.
Like Tim Gunn, Project Runway, my job as an actor is just make it work. Even if I hate it or I don’t agree with it, it’s like, that’s not my job in that room. My job is to like make it work.
I mean, that’s, that’s kind of an important mindset going into anything, but it makes it easier for me too, right? Because I think when I was younger, you know, um, well, that’s not what my character, you know, like, but it’s easier when you’re just, I’m going to go with the flow and I trust you and I’m game. It just, it’s easier for me and it’s easier for the room. And you just hope that you have rooms that are like that.
You know, I used to think I knew so much when I was ready to theater school. I knew everything and I was such an asshole. I’m so glad that I grew up a little bit because now it’s sort of like, you know, I’ve had some ensemble experiences where there’s both when there’s, we have a common enemy, but also when there’s just so much love that we would like just do this forever if we could.
Um, and that came from just being willing to do whatever to make it work. Yeah. Yeah.
Um, Victoria, you, I mean, you’re in an interesting position because you are an actor, uh, your producer and you also, um, run, uh, venues. I house the craziness. I’m like, come on in.
Um, is there something that you have seen in people who are producing? I’ve seen some shit. What’s the important lesson that you think that, uh, somebody who’s self-producing should know as somebody who has provided the house for their shit to happen? There’s so many things I’m working at Casey and I are working on, uh, in our spare time, uh, blogs, um, about exactly that, because I, we are in a unique position and there really is like, we, we’re in a unique position. We’re in a privileged position of just being able to see productions come through whether at whatever stage they’re at.
Sometimes it’s production. Sometimes it’s just the rehearsal. Sometimes it’s just their auditions.
And we get to see this sort of revolving door of people and different groups and different types. And I think in the, I have a, a sort of a theory that there’s a, the scenario of creating a, um, of creating a show is like, I, I draw parallels with that with like what I’ve seen in movies. I’ve never had kids, but I, what I’ve seen movies of like people who are pregnant and then get to a delivery room and that like delivery room drama, or you see the, like the, the joke is, I was almost like, you know, the at home birth with the candles and then it always ends up chaos at the end.
Like there’s always this stress that’s so intense and, uh, it makes people do and say things that they wouldn’t normally if they had all their wits about them. Um, and when you want it talking about scapegoats as a space provider, I am a very easy scapegoat because I’m, I’m the safest scapegoat often because I’m, I’m not part of the production. And even if the, especially if the show is not happening in that space.
So there’s a, an epidemic of, uh, spaces that open and close and open and close and open and close and open and close and open and close. And so having been like one of the ones that has withstood or whatever, you know, for a variety of different reasons. Um, I speak with people who do and have closed their spaces and, uh, I’ve, I’ve had beers with them and I, and some of them, and I’ve talked with others and they’re, you know, sort of the whispers of, uh, groups of people who’ve had spaces that it’s not worth it because you, you’re providing space at a low cost.
So there’s not like, there’s no bags of money. So it’s okay. It’s not for money.
It’s for, it’s for something else. It’s for believing in something and trying to believe in something while you’ve got someone being a jackass to you is really hard. So like, I think the lesson would be realize who’s supporting you and who’s there for you.
And don’t take it, like, don’t take it out on anybody, but like, there’s just, everybody’s there trying to build something. And so if you want to, and space providers included, um, if you are feeling frustrated, learned how to channel that some other way other than abusing people, because it’s, that’s my biggest struggle with space. It’s not like our property tax just doubled at one of our locations.
And it was like, boom, you have to, we gave, we got two weeks notice. Oh my God. What the hell is all these? Like our furnace fucking broke.
Our furnace broke at one location and three days later broke at another one. It was like, what? So all of these things, like, that’s literally not the hard part. It’s the, what it’s the, the energy that sometimes comes at us when we’re communicating with people.
It’s like literally like, and I’m totally guilty of this. I’ll call up Rogers and scream at somebody on the phone. And it’s like, well, you know, like that didn’t feel better.
It didn’t, you know, solve my problems. Maybe they felt bullied into doing something for me and gave me five bucks off my plan. I don’t know, but like, if there’s, I feel like people have that, uh, feel free to do that with people who run space and everyone assumes the goal, it’s just the money or it’s too expensive or the funding didn’t come through.
And that that’s, that’s so not the thing. I’m so curious how you came about like wanting to run a space. Um, you know what? I, I wanted to do my own work for the, um, not for altruistic reasons, as I’ve mentioned, but, uh, also then I thought, Oh, it’ll, it’ll allow me to do my work and then allow me to network with other people.
And it allowed me to further my career. And then I’ll be able to, you know, have value. Like, I think it was basically wanting to have value as a, as a person.
And then also as an artist, you know, that was the start of it. Like, then it turns out I, uh, that’s not the case, but, uh, I’m, I mean, I keep going because I, I think that there’s, uh, I think it’s bullshit that, that people say, Oh, you there’s this, that there’s any percentage of people that can or cannot make it. There’s, Oh, there’s some that will make it some that won’t fuck off.
That’s ridiculous. And I think that people need a platform to do it. They need a place to do it.
And I think it needs to, um, be possible in an E I think there, the more, the easier it is for people to access space, the easier it is for people to make it. And, um, I think that’s really important because they, I think that artists and storytelling is what changes people’s minds. It’s what brings people together.
It’s what creates community. It’s what creates peace. It creates like all of the good shit that happens in the world.
Storytelling can, it can do it. So why not nurture that activity? Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s that. Have you, have you found that by running these spaces that you have networked or is that, has that become part of anything for you? I mean, cause you guys do the one more night festival as well as other things.
That’s true. Yeah. I mean, it definitely has helped me network, but not in the way that I imagined.
That’s why I hesitated to answer that question. Cause it was really not in the way I imagined it. It wasn’t like, Oh, now I’ll get hired as an actor.
It actually made it really awkward to be hired as an actor. Cause I was like, are you just hiring me because you want free space? Because I, and I actually, before I like at the same time of meeting people, I lost friends because they were like, you know, well provide me with space now. Like I can’t like, it’s not free for me rather than, you know, without me opening up my budget and bank account, you need to trust me that I do.
But without understanding the finances, people think, Oh, it’s free for you. Or they don’t even imagine that. They just think you should, you have space and I need space and you should help me because you’re my friend.
And that happened a lot. Not, and it doesn’t anymore, but that not often anymore, but that was a, that was a struggle. Yeah.
But then networking as a, as a creator, as a fellow creator, as a producer, as a, um, as someone who, I mean, I find myself just really wanting to be involved in theater and whatever capacity. And I’ve sort of worn all, almost all hats, I think at some point. So, and I’m interested in supporting stories that I think are, are really about, um, a goal that I believe in.
Like it really about all the good stuff that theater does, including, you know, reaching an audience and even if it’s just lifting their mood, having something happen to a common group of people sitting together. Um, yeah, I’ve, I’ve networked with people who believe in that too. And that, so that’s really exciting.
That’s at Stratford. And I think that, that we don’t do it for that. I mean, anymore, we probably don’t do it for that reason.
You can’t, you can’t sustain yourself. I don’t think on that. No, that will only last you so long.
Yeah. Um, Crystal, when, when you’re traveling, um, cause you’ve, have you, you’ve pretty much been in every fringe in Canada. Um, I think there’s like, I think a Halifax one is going on now that I haven’t done, but yeah.
Yeah. It’s at the end of the year. Cause the maritime ones are all at the end of the season.
Um, have you like in comparing, cause you’ve done fringes and not fringe. Yeah, for sure. Is there a difference that you’ve seen with, um, producing for fringe and producing outside of fringe? Um, well, I think fringe, hands down I produce there’s no, you know, unless I hire someone that’s me.
But I think when I’ve been fortunate to go somewhere else or been part of a fest, another festival, or someone just brings me in, they help a little bit with that. You know what I mean? So I think that’s the benefit or they have the community already. Like if they have a theater and you know, they already have, I guess their, yeah, their, their audience and their mailing list.
So it becomes a little bit easier, you know, and I think also then the expectation is they’re bringing me in. So, you know, they, they want to have people there for me. So I would say that that’s a little bit easier, you know? Um, yeah, but I’m still like, I’m still upfronting, I’m still doing the poster and getting all that stuff to them, you know? Um, but fringe hands down, like it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s definitely producing myself.
Yeah. Yeah. Do you find that when you’re going to a fringe now that, that people know who you are and it’s a little easier to sell? Ah, you know what I could, I could go, um, I’d like to think that, but you know what else I’m just like, I, you know, cause I tried to get away from the, I mean, I did Edinburgh the past couple of years, but, um, I was trying to get away from the Canadian fringe circuit just to give a break.
And I just think there’s more, I love the fringe. It will always be there. And I will speak so highly of all these wonderful things that it brought me, but I also just think you need to step away from it sometime and that there’s more out there to life.
And I think it gets addictive. And I think it’s, I just had this vision that 20 years later, I’d still be doing that. I was like, I don’t want to be doing the same, you know? So I take a break, but like, for example, I haven’t been to Edmonton.
I had a huge, I had a huge name. I was, I, you know, I had an audience in Edmonton for sure, but now I haven’t been there since 2013. Um, that’s the last time I did Edmonton.
So going back this year, I don’t, I don’t think it’s, I think I’m gonna have to work hard. You know what I mean? I, I mean, I think people go, Oh, you did that show. Now I remember you.
I think you’re always, you know, you have to hit them with something. They know, cause they’re not going to remember your name. They might remember one.
Yeah. Yeah. But I’ll, you know, but, um, and then I just think, you know, this is one thing I want to say, and then this is going to open up another can of worms, but I have this debate on the fringe that especially with solo work that everyone remembers always the male acts.
This is just a theory I have. I’ve been doing this long enough to know this as everyone knows. And I’m not going to list off the name of the, you know, the solid male performers, but everyone knows, uh, Bubba John Smith show or, you know, Scott Thompson show.
Like everyone knows these names of these guys, but as a woman, I, no one ever remembers a female artist. It’s always like, it’s always by the show. They always refer to the guy as their name and the woman as the showtime.
I find that interesting. So I find, yeah, I always have to work harder than the guys, even, even if I, you know, I have the same fan base as someone else. So that’s something that’s interesting.
Yeah. But I find, I think with fringe, you have to go the more you go. And I did that for a long time about year after year after year.
And then I built up, you know, um, yeah, a bit of a following, but I still think you start from the beginning. So it’ll be interesting to see, but I’m very curious to hear how it goes. Yeah.
Yeah. But I’m not, I’m not worried about, and you know, not to sound like this after doing Edinburgh, I feel like I don’t, Edmonton will just be like, Oh sure. You know, cause I’m still at the point where like I’ve done Edmonton once, but it still scares the shit out of me.
But you know, I figured if I’d done Edinburgh, Edmonton wouldn’t seem so, I think I’m going, I’m going and it could totally fall on my face and be a disaster, but I just, I’m going with like a really relaxed, like, Oh, it’s no big deal. It’s, it’s small. And I don’t mean to sound that in an arrogant way.
I just, after, you know, like Edmonton is what, 250 shows and Edinburgh was 3000. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Your reaction to, to what Crystal just said, cause that was a big part of your show. It’s not just a can of worms.
It’s like, I know, I know, I know, but it drives me crazy. It just always has. Well, and it’s talking about so much.
Um, yes, no, because that’s one thing about my show that I didn’t really realize people were going to pick up on as much as they did. And it is something I feel so passionate about, but in my mind too, it was something I kind of mentioned at the end of the show, you know, and wasn’t like what the overall show was about for me. But it is true that we do, we, cause I’m not there, but like society audiences have this reverence for male soul work that they don’t have for female soul work, which I think is a shame.
And, and, um, I’m sick of it. Why do we pedestalize male vulnerability and then look at female vulnerability or, or not even, I shouldn’t say male, but like a woman’s vulnerability is looked as, as, at, as like, it’s common. And it’s like, no, it’s not common.
Actually there’s so much, so much work. Sorry. I hijacked.
I think, I think a lot of male work, it’s more of a universal topic or, you know, like, Oh, the 20 jobs that I had in my twenties or, or, you know, like every, every, you know, a lot of guys do that, but it’s more of a universal where as women, it’s always like, Oh, is she going to talk about her period? Is she going to talk about her mom? Is she going to you know, but I always say the women buy the theater tickets. So, but I think that’s why, I think that’s why we fight for that. Because I think a lot of men are like, I don’t want to go see a woman talk about it.
Which we do have to work harder, as you said, to get audiences because of that. Yeah. I was saying earlier, there’s, there’s that notion that like, if a man is crying on stage, it must be like, look at all of that emotional work.
It’s gone so much farther than what this woman crying has been. And it’s like, well, no, actually that’s a, that’s a perspective that you really need to change. Because I have also seen shows where dudes are blubbering all over the stage.
And I am watching the one woman who is sitting in the back corner, just watching it all and just taking it all in. That crying does not mean someone’s done more work than someone else. And we, we’re, we’re so conditioned to look at a dude opening his soul as like, as, as, as so like, as so uncommon.
And that, that’s got to change. This is the problem with the world. We talked to Phil running his podcast.
He does male solo shows. But you know, here’s the interesting thing is, and I was saying this before, before you guys arrived that if you look back at, at the people who’ve been on this podcast, the vast majority are women. And I think it’s because, and I was saying earlier that dudes don’t feel like they have to work as hard to promote, to promote that they just assume that, you know, because, you know, I didn’t think they even think it’s because they just think, well, I don’t have to work as hard, but, but I think women know they have to hustle.
I had, I had a, I had a very well-known fringe male artist who is actually quite a good friend of mine, but I’ll never forget. Uh, you know, he’s, he does not live here. Um, everyone’s going to figure it out.
Uh, no, but he, he came to Toronto. We were both doing solo shows and he does very, very well, but he was struggling in Toronto. And he said to me, how dare you are selling out? And I’m not like, he’s like, how is this happening? And I was like, Hey, it’s my home city.
You know, I, I should be, but like, I couldn’t believe that he, he said that, but, you know, but to him, it was just like, he couldn’t believe that maybe it was me or, or a female was, was doing better than him. I’ve never forgotten that. Wow.
Could you forget that? Yeah, no, but I, but it’s just, cause I think they just assume it’s, I don’t know. Yeah. I think it’s also tied like, um, like solo work in comedy too, still women in comedy, yeah.
Um, and so that’s part of it as well. Right. That, uh, if you’re doing solo work, that’s comedic, you know, that’s another kind of thing you have to deal with to get audiences.
But there’s, there’s also the green society perspective of like a woman, like, and this is like, take this all with a grain of salt. Um, it’s that idea of the, of just comparing pictures of a woman and a man as a leader and, and seeing one as dishonest and the other as honest. Um, and a dude doesn’t have to, I keep saying dude.
I started it. It’s okay. Okay.
Okay. I know I picked it up from somewhere. Um, there, there is the, like the idea that guys don’t have to work as hard to portray themselves as honest in a leadership position.
Like for me as an artistic director, I get this all the time and I get questioned 10 times more. There was that amazing Twitter article about how a man and a woman changed sign-offs for one week and the man had the most stressful week of his life. And the woman had, uh, the easiest and most productive week of her life.
And I very much believe in that because I have had that 10 times over, um, as an artistic director, as a producer, as like, I’ve been questioned by, by a bunch of, uh, male actors to the nth degree about my choices. And I have been told at the same time that I am too controlling and that I don’t make enough choices and I’m not solid enough in my choices. What the fuck? I’m like, I’m sitting here and I’m like, should I talk about, should I tell the secret of, uh, what we do sometimes at? Cause then I don’t know if we can use it as successfully afterward.
Um, we have emails, we have mail emails that we send emails to sometimes. Um, like a male email address and like screen names basically, where we sign off as men. Um, when we’re dealing often with an older male, um, client who is being unreasonable or difficult.
And, uh, you’re talking about like wanting to rent your space or they’re, they’re being difficult with pushing us for different pricing or, or pestering or they’re being inappropriate or anything like that. Yeah. We, so we do.
So there’s like a third party of like, yeah. Um, and it’s incredibly effective. That is incredibly effective.
And I’m not a hundred percent sure how much of that comes from a change in how we perceive ourselves in order to be able to communicate with someone else or, and then also how they perceive us. Because I, I, I find it easier to take a different tone if I’m think I’m writing as a dude, but do they ever ask to meet this person? No. Okay.
What’s interesting is that I know that it may be both the perspective, but also the name, because I’ve worked in tech support for a very long time. And I know that, and I’ve seen it happen where one of my female colleagues who probably knows more than me, or at least or, or as much picks up the phone and somebody says, Oh no, no, no, no. I need to talk to a man.
Wow. There’s no men here. So there is a, okay.
So when I, I’ve, I’ve been getting this direction and I’ve been getting this, uh, this, uh, criticism a lot where I’ve been told that your, your choice doesn’t make sense. I need to, I need to, I need to speak to someone who can, who can make sense of this. And I’m like, and I would love to change the word sense to man.
I would love to go, Oh, you mean you would like to speak to a man about this right now? And you would be okay with his choices or, Oh, this is like my rage is rising. Um, or, or, Oh, you would like me to make this choice as a man would right now, or as a, as a man would perceive, I would not actually how a woman would, um, or how I would. Um, well, and the great thing is too, like, you just don’t have them back, right? You’re the director.
You’re like, Oh, okay. This is good. Yep.
Good to know. I have a list. Yeah.
Um, it’s, it’s really, you know, it’s really too bad that, that, that there’s this, like, I’m thinking about, I was, I’ve been sitting here to think, trying to think of, okay, how many female solo performers can I think of? Hmm. And I would think of, of crystal, I would think of Lily Tomlin. I’ve seen your show.
So of course I think of you, but I don’t, I think of Laura Ann Harris. And then I would be at the end of my list, off the top of my head. And then if I’m thinking about male solo performers, I can think, I can think Daniel McIver, TJ Dunn.
I can think of John Patterson. I can think Shane, Shane Adams, Zach out of the France. Like I can think of so many more names.
And that is exactly what you were saying that we remember if you were to name a show that a woman did, it would be, I would probably remember the show. I could, you know, I could riff off tons of female solo performers, but it’s interesting. You know what I mean? It’s like, yeah, but it’s exactly what I recognize the show.
I mean, that’s yeah, I know. And it’s, it is a thing. Yeah.
Yeah. Just how many awesome, I think like solo female shows were at the fringe. I had this idea, which I have so many ideas that, you know, but to do like a solo female festival after the fringe, cause there is always so much content.
And that’s something that I really was like, I’m making plans for, cause I think, you know, you can follow the femme fringe hashtag. Yeah. So just cause yeah, there’s, there was so much great solo female work, this fringe and back you up on that.
Yeah. You know, it, it needs more. It needs more life.
Well, there, there does need to be more of it. Or solo women’s work. Yeah.
It is the time because we’re, we’re, we’re seeing a situation where it’s more necessary. And also I think we’re at a tipping point where I think this is where it’s likely to happen and it can happen. Yeah.
Yep. Yep. Shitty that it took so long and it’s shitty that it’s taken some of the things that have happened to, to get there.
But I think, I think this is like, it’s a good time to, to make that happen. And all of that. Well, we are about an hour and 10 minutes.
So I’d like to thank you all for, for being a part of this and hope to do it again. Thank you all.
